Mini 1698: MDCXCVIII [C'est fini!]

[Annarchy]

what's up bitches

holy SHIT you guys tore up the last ten or so pages

reading now

[Annarchy]

6 pages in

right now dragonspawn and implosion are my biggest town reads. implosion's vote on GreyFox (with separate thought-out reasoning from KK) is something I don't see him bothering with as scum, especially after going to so much effort to explain that vote. implosion's reads are also very close to mine as of now in this post:

Like why are you more focused on your votes placement than on addressing scumreads or producing content?

I have addressed reads and produced content; points were made towards me, so I'm going to address those points. No one has criticized any of my

reads

as of yet, so I haven't discussed any in-depth. I've given a number of townreads (dragon, woody, shazam) and a current scumread on NE; I gave a scumread on foxxxx which I've since retracted, and a weak scumread on Boon, which I've since retracted (he's now in the townread pile, foxxxx is null). I can go in-depth into any involved reasoning if desired.

Another point I have been harping on, and will harp on more: KK really has not towntold yet. Everything he's done so far is just pure reasoning; it isn't necessarily a towntell for him just because you agree with his reasoning. I'd like to hear from Boon why KK is town.

and that further strengthens my read there, because it shows implosion's probably thinking with a town mindset

I liked dragonspawn's post 63 (though I can't actually remember why now lol), but this post is the biggest reason dragonspawn is town:

Been looking over implosion some more and I just see more questions. He didn't want to "waste" his vote by voting for gray before he knew whether a wagon could start, but he didn't hesitate being the first vote on woody at the beginning or being the first vote on evil after giving this explanation. So why was voting first on gray a wasted vote but voting first on woody and evil perfectly alright?

I look this over and I see backtracking by someone who is caught making a mistake. It's a sign of a guilty conscience and bad reasoning.

If implosion flips scum we should definitely look closer at woody and Mario. Both have been resisting/defending the push on implosion. On top of that woody especially looks like a good buddy for implosion as scum because it explains why he wouldn't worry about the woody vote creating a wagon. He had no intention of it becoming a wagon.

Just some general thoughts right now.

I like boon so far. Reminds me of my best friend. I'd like to see more from pk.

at this time implosion has a town read on dragonspawn. I get the feeling dragonspawn has entered tunnel-mode on implosion here, and he's making conclusions on things with the assumption that implosion will flip scum. he also mentions that he doesn't believe the reasoning implosion is using, which is something I value highly when scumhunting. overall this post just feels very genuine and from a town mindset.

other reads I have at this point are Shazam/GrayFox/Woodpecker leaning town, and I have my eye on Boonskiies and Mario.

[Annarchy]

Woodpecker have you ever been scum before?

[Annarchy]

13 pages in. right now my gut is screaming at me telling me Boonskiies is bussing Mario/Dom. Boonskiies' reasoning against Mario is incredibly weak, he even admits in 206 that he doesn't know how Mario plays as town. yet he tunnels Mario's slot to death. he claims in 215 that it's mostly pressure, but later in 310 tries to make a connection to Mario replacing out as scum in his last game, implying he knew this would happen. this is inconsistent with his claims in earlier posts about what he expects scum-Mario to do.

now he could either be pushing for Mario's mislynch or trying to bus, but I really don't see Boonskiies making this push from a town POV. there's no evidence for this, but my theory is that Boonskiies didn't value Mario as a scum partner and thought the best way he could gain town credit from this was to bus him as hard as he could. scum also have daytalk, meaning he may feel like he could comfortably set this up. this is just how I suspect Boonskiies would think.

VOTE: Boonskiies
may change through the rest of the read, probably not

[Annarchy]

she*
seriously, girl avatar, "She" pronoun, how do you get that wrong

and I replaced Stubbs

[Annarchy]

@Anarcchy - Oh, you are on page 13...haha. Oops.

I was about to say

by the way, if your self-defense in the last 10 or so posts is a summary of what I'm going to end up reading, tell me and save me the trouble. you're not going to "fake VI" yourself into looking town in my eyes.

(also, I care about your sig less than you care about my gender)

[Annarchy]

20 pages in

my problem with Boonskiies is most of the time I have trouble believing he believes what he's arguing. at 387 he accuses Dom of suspecting a buddy and voting a townie. then in 390 he tells Dom he'll vote implosion eventually if Dom votes him first. as someone who is pushing for Dom to be lynched and allegedly thinks Dom is scum, this conversation makes no sense at all. later he says the only two reasonable lynches are Mario and Shazam, and he says he has a scumread on Mario/Dom and he would like to lynch that slot. twenty posts later he switches to Woodpecker, after complaining about how scummy Mario/Dom was because no one would consider voting there.

like seriously what the fuck. there is no consistency in anything Boon says. I'm not convinced at all that he believes a word he's saying.


meanwhile, I'm now leaning town on the following people: GrayFox, Dominator, Bulba (kinda), NE, Woodpecker. in addition, implosion isn't quite as towny as I had him at first due to the explanation of his play in 193. still a slight town lean, because I have consistently been having similar reads to him.

[Annarchy]

lol

here's the post where I theorize you bussing Dom

13 pages in. right now my gut is screaming at me telling me Boonskiies is bussing Mario/Dom. Boonskiies' reasoning against Mario is incredibly weak, he even admits in 206 that he doesn't know how Mario plays as town. yet he tunnels Mario's slot to death. he claims in 215 that it's mostly pressure, but later in 310 tries to make a connection to Mario replacing out as scum in his last game, implying he knew this would happen. this is inconsistent with his claims in earlier posts about what he expects scum-Mario to do.

now he could either be pushing for Mario's mislynch or trying to bus

, but I really don't see Boonskiies making this push from a town POV. there's no evidence for this, but my theory is that Boonskiies didn't value Mario as a scum partner and thought the best way he could gain town credit from this was to bus him as hard as he could. scum also have daytalk, meaning he may feel like he could comfortably set this up. this is just how I suspect Boonskiies would think.

VOTE: Boonskiies
may change through the rest of the read, probably not

note that this was when I was at page 13

here's my next catchup post

20 pages in

my problem with Boonskiies is most of the time I have trouble believing he believes what he's arguing. at 387 he accuses Dom of suspecting a buddy and voting a townie. then in 390 he tells Dom he'll vote implosion eventually if Dom votes him first. as someone who is pushing for Dom to be lynched and allegedly thinks Dom is scum, this conversation makes no sense at all. later he says the only two reasonable lynches are Mario and Shazam, and he says he has a scumread on Mario/Dom and he would like to lynch that slot. twenty posts later he switches to Woodpecker, after complaining about how scummy Mario/Dom was because no one would consider voting there.

like seriously what the fuck. there is no consistency in anything Boon says. I'm not convinced at all that he believes a word he's saying.


meanwhile, I'm now leaning town on the following people: GrayFox, Dominator, Bulba (kinda), NE, Woodpecker. in addition, implosion isn't quite as towny as I had him at first due to the explanation of his play in 193. still a slight town lean, because I have consistently been having similar reads to him.

my town read on Dominator developed between these two posts.
try harder scum

Shazam, why did you support this?

[Annarchy]

that's because it's stupid

similar /=/ exact

[Annarchy]

ffs could you let me finish my initial read of the game pls ty

[Annarchy]

Boon-scum is not dependent on Dom-scum

[Annarchy]

had other stuff to do last night, still on Page 22 but I'm going to respond to Boon because he is continuing his habit of claiming confidence in shit reasoning

in 139 implosion gave the following reads

I've given a number of townreads (dragon, woody, shazam) and a current scumread on NE; I gave a scumread on foxxxx which I've since retracted, and a weak scumread on Boon, which I've since retracted (he's now in the townread pile, foxxxx is null). I can go in-depth into any involved reasoning if desired.

Another point I have been harping on, and will harp on more: KK really has not towntold yet. Everything he's done so far is just pure reasoning; it isn't necessarily a towntell for him just because you agree with his reasoning. I'd like to hear from Boon why KK is town.

at that point in my read-through, I had dragon and Shazam as leaning town, and neither NE nor KK had towntold to me. (KK still hasn't towntold to me, while I've since changed NE to leaning town) I would call these reads similar to mine
in addition he says in 400 that his grayfox read has changed to town; I have GrayFox as town

while it seems we disagree on NE and you, from what I've seen so far our reads are very similar


meanwhile you switch from FA_Q2 (who you were apparently confident on? haven't read your reasoning for that yet but from where I'm at FA_Q2 has posted like nothing so I can't imagine it being strong) to me based on 1) a misrep and 2) you not seeing where implosion and I have similar reads (though it doesn't seem you looked into either of our reads to confirm this)

again, I highly doubt you believe anything you're pushing. die scum.

[Annarchy]

UNVOTE:

[Annarchy]

read up to where I replaced in
and holy shit, I hope no one minds that I'm going to be ignoring everything Boon says until we decide to lynch him.

the last eight pages of my read only did two things:
1) reinforce my Woodpecker townread
2) make me start looking at Shazam as a scumread. I started thinking about this when I saw post 523, and while I could have make this observation earlier, I guess it finally clicked when I saw this: Shazam is pushing heavily on the Mario wagon for something that is essentially a weak-player-tell. it's not very appealing play no, but Mario's 10 posts could easily, EASILY be from a new, weak town player. I have ISO'd Shazam and seen his reasoning, and not only do I disagree that Mario's actions are telling, I also think Shazam is claiming far too much confidence in his read on the Mario slot.

back when I was focusing on Boon, I also had a slight issue with Shazam not questioning Boon's move off of Dom.


reading past my replace-in, I have to agree with others that 723/4 from FA_Q2 made me feel weird, and I also can't place why.
Boon unfortunately starts looking really towny at the bottom of page 33/top of 34. I'm conflicted on that read, because I'm pretty sure I recall reading a game where Boon slid by getting town reads from people by VIing it up and lasted to the end as scum. I don't want to discount Boon as scum because of my doubt in his belief in his reasoning. I'll leave him at null and hopefully we can sort him out later (or a vig can shoot him (please)).


this is where my reads are atm

^ TOWN
WoodyWoodpecker
dragonspawn
Bulbazoor
GrayFoxxxx
implosion
spicer
Dominator
pisskop
Boonskiies
KublaiKhan
FA_Q2
Shazam
v SCUM

wanna say scum is all in the bottom five

VOTE: Shazam with a willingness to join the FA wagon if this can't happen

[Annarchy]

two separate ideas.

I think you're incorrect in your reasoning. you're pushing something I don't agree is scummy.
I also think you're scummy for putting up a facade of confidence in Mario/Dom scum. I don't believe that, from a town mindset, you could be truthfully confident in Mario/Dom being scum based on Mario's posts. especially someone like you, who seems intelligent and reasonable. you would be using reasoning far better than what little there is to take from Mario's posts.

[Annarchy]

ugh

I have to agree with the first three sentences of Shazam's 861. I will at least concede that Shazam probably believes his reasoning is strong regardless of his alignment. furthermore, usually my reads aren't based on a large amount of content either - with Shazam giving himself as a prime example. sorry

UNVOTE:
can I see a case on Dom alone, Shazam? not considering Mario's play, does Dom's give you the same read on the slot?
I realize this question isn't completely fair as your read on the slot is mainly based on Mario's play, but it will help me agree and follow you should you be right, as I'm not convinced by your reasoning thus far

put Shazam right about where pisskop is in my reads

[Annarchy]

why is bulba town?

you're going to hate this, but it's mostly meta. I have three notes of posts that I read Bulba town in, and my explanation for all three of them is simply "meta." look at any game bulba has played and you will notice that his actions here totally line up with his town actions

more specifically, comparing his scum game to his town game, there are very distinct differences. I've found that he gives genuine, confident reads as town, while as scum, he plays a little more defensive with little thought given to reads.

I believe 213 is an example of town-bulba. so is 255 where he gives reads on everyone. in particular his read on Stubbs looks genuine to me - as scum I think he would run with a scumread based on what he said there.
and then there are a bunch of little things that give me a gut townread on Bulba. little comments that he just wouldn't bother to make as scum.

[Annarchy]

Shazam stop being right

it's hard for me to not consider meta when reading Bulba. personally I don't hold much stock in "traditionally scummy" things. I don't believe there's a set list of things you can read someone as scum for doing regardless of who it is. I would say there's very little in online Mafia that's actually alignment-indicative without considering who someone is and how they normally react to things.

I don't think play like Bulba's should be encouraged or allowed to stay how it is. he needs to evolve as a Mafia player, and that will likely happen through him getting lynched in scenarios like these. but for this particular game, I can look at his past experience and tell that he's probably town based on how he usually acts. ignoring this information would be counterproductive to winning here.


I need to attempt an FA ISO

[Annarchy]

on a somewhat related note, I feel like I'm going to be annoyingly sitting on nullish reads of Shazam and implosion for ages because almost anything they've done up to this point could have been done by town-them OR scum-them

[Annarchy]

KK, you have spicer and I mixed up. he replaced NE, I replaced Stubbs.

[Annarchy]

I feel like my reads really suck in this game

I've been looking at a double-ISO between Shazam and Bulba. and while Bulba would definitely do this as town, I'm starting to convince myself it's not impossible for him to do this as scum. what really gets me is that Bulba has mostly been lurking ever since he admitted to lying, which makes me feel like he could be trying to blow the whole thing off and hope it gets passed up later. he's stopped trying to look for scum.
the other option I would consider as of now is FA, but I want more from him. if he's scum we can get more telling info out of him tomorrow, while if he's town we have more time to figure that out.

meanwhile, I don't think I'm going to be any less confused about Bulba over time. and I don't feel like there's much more to gain from today.
VOTE: Bulba

[Annarchy]

I am kind of finding the way anna 180s her read on me.

1.

At first, she claims that I am a townread. Weak, but a read as town.

2.

Then, she claims that if FA is scum, wshe wants to keep him for more.

That was the questionable part for me and I am wondering why she would want to keep someone if they are the scum? Fa latest post also shows that he is willing to join the wagon that is on me and that I have posted nothing. He was not here to read my posts I made right now. Back to anna...

Anna is being questionable to me right now as a player because I can barely understand how they quickly went from townreading me to " convincing myself that he can do it as scum" when that was already the obvious thing. How did she not notice it?

3.

And why did she claim meta as fast as she could when asked?

For some reason, I am starting to see anna and FA as a possible scum team up.

4.

Anna also claimed that I stopped scumhunting. That is a lie and it is also a factor on my lessened townread on her.

Everything anna has done is, from my perspective, questinonable.

1. this changed when I realized that while your play so far is similar to your town play, it's not necessarily different than your scum play. it was a mistake on my part that led to you being read as town by me
2. that's only half of my claim there. I said if FA is scum, we could use some more info from him (which, yes, is true because he has said hardly anything in comparison to the rest of the game, having the lowest post count tied with the NE/spicer slot). however I ALSO said if he's town, leaving him alive will give us a chance to see that. basically while I do have him as the lowest person in my reads atm, I also think my reads are probably shit and I should gather more info to be sure of anything
3. literally the only thing I had in my notes regarding you was "Bulba town - post #xxx. meta." for a few posts
4. well, let's look at your posts between you admitting you lied and me making that post:

Spoiler: scumhunting?

Trying to get a reacton is antitown?

Can you explain. Dom?

I s till want shazam.

VOTE: FA
I need to see more from this.

Ill keepy eyes on FA...

I was trying to get the adequate reaction out of gray at the same time.

I am sorry I am being hard to understand.

It was meant to shaz but I switched it to you so I can get one reaction bit from you to either improve the read or destruct it.

Anna is town to me.

I think it's safe to say there's not really any attempt to scumhunt here

[Annarchy]

that wasn't very evident. you didn't ask any questions, and made no comment aside from saying you needed to see more and you'd keep your eyes on him.

[Annarchy]

did you look at the wiki page for this?

regardless
VOTE: FA

watcher is too powerful to risk mislynching today

[Annarchy]

for the record I personally think Bulb is lying due to his scrambling like a VT in 927/8

but lynching a claimed watcher D1 is stupid

[Annarchy]

928/9*

[Annarchy]

by the way, FA is a terrible target for you Bulba

watch someone who's probably town, but don't say who

[Annarchy]

...you claiming watcher?

[Annarchy]

for the record I personally think Bulb is lying

due to his scrambling like a VT in 927/8

but lynching a claimed watcher D1 is stupid

[Annarchy]

you acted as though you expected to be lynched

[Annarchy]

fuck it
VOTE: Bulbazoor

[Annarchy]

I feel confident he's scum now
he probably won't be killed tonight if telling the truth, which would be the main use of a claimed PR
I think leaving him alive will probably just end in us wasting time lynching him later

overall I see the benefits of lynching him are now greater than the benefits of keeping him alive

[Annarchy]

also, how common are full watchers in mini normals? I remember seeing somewhere that the general consensus was that they're OP. I'll probably look through recent mini normals to check that

[Annarchy]

brb screaming

[Annarchy]

WAIT WAIT WAIT

I can watch one person

every night

and see who, if anyone visited them.

And I am also

one shot

. Wo I am useless after that. Just checked.

CONFIRM VOTE: BULBAZOOR

[Annarchy]

I did not look at Nything. It states it

in my role pm.

YOU HAD LOOKED AT YOUR ROLE PM BY THIS POINT

fairly sure he decided to switch it to one-shot after I said full watchers were uncommon

[Annarchy]

So that was fun. It looks like Bulbazoor has dramatically voted himself to L-2 status.

VOTE: FA_Q2

This is the direction I'd rather go for today.

did you read the part where bulba slipped

[Annarchy]

Deadline is 30-07-2015 00:00 CEST.
(expired on 2015-07-30 00:00:00)

mod please tell me this is a mistake

[Annarchy]

phew <3

hey vig (at least I'm assuming you're a vig and not an SK due to the FA kill): shooting N1 is generally a bad idea

going to look at interactions with bulba/VCA

[Annarchy]

I wanna say Boon is probably town, mostly because I think he would have been all in on the bussing Bulb business

[Annarchy]

my VC coloring for reference if anyone wants it

Spoiler:

Vote count (1-1)

dragonspawn [1]: WoodyWoodpecker
implosion [1]: MarioManiac4
pisskop [1]: dragonspawn
MarioManiac4 [1]: Boonskiies
Kublai Khan [1]: pisskop
Abstaining [8]:

Bulbazoor

/ GrayFoxxxx /

FA_Q2

/ implosion / Necessary Evil /

Shazam

/

StubbsKVM

/ Kublai Khan


Vote count (1-2)

GrayFoxxxx [2]: Kublai Khan /

Shazam

implosion [3]: MarioManiac4 / pisskop / dragonspawn
Boonskiies [1]: GrayFoxxxx
Necessary Evil [1]: implosion

Shazam

[1]:

Bulbazoor

MarioManiac4 [1]: Necessary Evil
Kublai Khan [1]: WoodyWoodpecker
WoodyWoodpecker [2]:

StubbsKVM

/ Boonskiies
Abstaining [1]:

FA_Q2

Vote count (1-3)

GrayFoxxxx [2]: Kublai Khan /

Shazam

implosion [2]: MarioManiac4 / dragonspawn
Boonskiies [1]: GrayFoxxxx
Necessary Evil [1]: implosion
MarioManiac4 [3]: Necessary Evil /

Bulbazoor

/ Boonskiies
Kublai Khan [1]: WoodyWoodpecker
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

StubbsKVM

Abstaining [2]:

FA_Q2

/ pisskop


Vote count (1-4)

Bulbazoor

[2]: GrayFoxxxx / implosion
GrayFoxxxx [1]: Kublai Khan
implosion [2]: MarioManiac4 / dragonspawn
MarioManiac4 [5]: Necessary Evil /

Bulbazoor

/ Boonskiies /

Shazam

/

FA_Q2

Kublai Khan [1]: WoodyWoodpecker
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

StubbsKVM

Abstaining [1]: pisskop


Vote count (1-5)

Bulbazoor

[2]: GrayFoxxxx / implosion
FA_Q2 [1]: pisskop
implosion [1]: dragonspawn

Shazam

[1]:

Bulbazoor

pisskop [1]: Kublai Khan
TheDominator37 < MarioManiac4 [4]: Necessary Evil / Boonskiies /

Shazam

/

FA_Q2

Kublai Khan [1]: WoodyWoodpecker
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

StubbsKVM

Abstaining [1]: TheDominator37


Vote count (1-6)

Bulbazoor

[1]: GrayFoxxxx

FA_Q2

[1]: pisskop
implosion [3]: dragonspawn /

FA_Q2

/ TheDominator37
Necessary Evil [1]: implosion

Shazam

[2]:

Bulbazoor

/ WoodyWoodpecker
pisskop [1]: Kublai Khan
TheDominator37 < MarioManiac4 [1]: /

Shazam

WoodyWoodpecker [2]:

StubbsKVM

/ Boonskiies
Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil


Vote count (1-7)

Bulbazoor

[3]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ WoodyWoodpecker

FA_Q2

[1]: pisskop
implosion [3]: dragonspawn /

FA_Q2

/ TheDominator37

Shazam

[1]:

Bulbazoor

pisskop [1]: Kublai Khan

StubbsKVM

[1]: implosion
WoodyWoodpecker [2]:

StubbsKVM

/ Boonskiies
Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil


Vote count (1-8)

Bulbazoor

[4]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ WoodyWoodpecker / pisskop

FA_Q2

[2]: implosion /

Bulbazoor

implosion [2]: dragonspawn / TheDominator37
Boonskiies [1]:

Annarchy

pisskop [1]: Kublai Khan

Annarchy < StubbsKVM

[1]: Boonskiies
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

FA_Q2

Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil


Vote count (1-9)

Bulbazoor

[3]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ pisskop

FA_Q2

[3]: implosion /

Bulbazoor

/ WoodyWoodpecker
implosion [2]: dragonspawn / TheDominator37
Shazam [1]:

Annarchy

pisskop [1]: Kublai Khan

Annarchy < StubbsKVM

[1]: Boonskiies
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

FA_Q2

Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil


Vote count (1-10)

Bulbazoor

[4]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ pisskop /

Annarchy

dragonspawn [1]: Kublai Khan

FA_Q2

[4]: implosion /

Bulbazoor

/ WoodyWoodpecker / Boonskiies
implosion [2]: dragonspawn / TheDominator37
WoodyWoodpecker [1]:

FA_Q2

Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil


Vote count (1-11)

Bulbazoor

[6]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ pisskop /

Annarchy

/ dragonspawn /

Bulbazoor

FA_Q2

[4]: implosion / WoodyWoodpecker / Boonskiies / Kublai Khan
Kublai Khan [1]:

FA_Q2

Abstaining [2]: Necessary Evil / TheDominator37


Final vote count (1-F)

Bulbazoor

[7]: GrayFoxxxx /

Shazam

/ pisskop /

Annarchy

/ dragonspawn / TheDominator37 /

Bulbazoor

FA_Q2

[4]: implosion / WoodyWoodpecker / Boonskiies / Kublai Khan
Kublai Khan [1]:

FA_Q2

Abstaining [1]: Necessary Evil

[Annarchy]

my reads aren't really a list anymore, it's more like two separate pools:

people I don't want to lynch:
GrayFox
WoodyWoodpecker
Boonskiies
implosion

people I would accept a lynch on, in somewhat of an order:
KK
dragonspawn
pisskop
spicer
Dom

the people in the second list aren't really "scumreads" more than not-townreads. dragonspawn was a townread, but my reasoning was pretty weak and based on some things he's said that looked genuine. and I don't think that's very reliable.

so KK, do you think scum were in constant coordination with Bulb during his end-of-the-day antics? if so does that make you suspect any particular players of coaching him throughout this?

[Annarchy]

dragonspawn's townslip was probably legit

also based on this wording in the op:

Your role PM will state the following:
The name of your role.
Your alignment. Either

Town

(

#6bd7c6

) or

Mafia

(

#6b39c6

).

there's most likely only one scum faction and no sk, especially since this is a normal and the mod/review group would make sure there isn't contradicting info between the op and the setup

GrayFox, I agree with pisskop, you're tunneling. I accidentally lie by not checking my facts all the time. most of the time scum are going to lie when it's actually beneficial to them. for example, bulb's lies were scummy because they were done to save his ass - he lied about talking to Shazam to make himself look better, and he lied about his Watcher claim to make it more believable. "lies" like pisskop's aren't things scum are going to try to do, therefore aren't alignment-indicative.

I actually get a town read out of spicer's 1089, implosion. mostly his last two paragraphs. I like what he's doing so far, and I remember liking NE after feeling a little weird about him at first

spicer, got any scumreads yet?

[Annarchy]

dragonspawn's townslip was probably legit

also based on this wording in the op:

Your role PM will state the following:
The name of your role.
Your alignment. Either

Town

(

#6bd7c6

) or

Mafia

(

#6b39c6

).

there's most likely only one scum faction and no sk, especially since this is a normal and the mod/review group would make sure there isn't contradicting info between the op and the setup

GrayFox, I agree with pisskop, you're tunneling. I accidentally lie by not checking my facts all the time. most of the time scum are going to lie when it's actually beneficial to them. for example, bulb's lies were scummy because they were done to save his ass - he lied about talking to Shazam to make himself look better, and he lied about his Watcher claim to make it more believable. "lies" like pisskop's aren't things scum are going to try to do, therefore aren't alignment-indicative.

I actually get a town read out of spicer's 1089, implosion. mostly his last two paragraphs. I like what he's doing so far, and I remember liking NE after feeling a little weird about him at first

spicer, got any scumreads yet?

What about it gave you a town read?

you didn't answer my question
your speculation on FA being the scum kill makes me think you're town because that's a ridiculous thing to argue imo. I feel like ignoring kill order, it's obvious who scum would have killed between FA and Shazam. Shazam was playing strong and diverted most suspicion thrown his way. FA looked scummy and didn't post much. according to the normal rules, scum couldn't have both a watcher "variant" and a role that investigates during the day, so there's no way they would know FA was a PR. there's just no reason for them to kill FA. but you making that point makes me think you're town speculating over scum trying to throw people off. scum might try to fake opinions, but I don't think they would start with setup spec, especially while under pressure

don't remember what I was thinking with the last two sentences though

[Annarchy]

dragonspawn's townslip was probably legit

also based on this wording in the op:

Your role PM will state the following:
The name of your role.
Your alignment. Either

Town

(

#6bd7c6

) or

Mafia

(

#6b39c6

).

there's most likely only one scum faction and no sk, especially since this is a normal and the mod/review group would make sure there isn't contradicting info between the op and the setup

GrayFox, I agree with pisskop, you're tunneling. I accidentally lie by not checking my facts all the time. most of the time scum are going to lie when it's actually beneficial to them.

Bulb didn't have to lie. Piss didn't have to lie. Plus the way he lied couldn't have been accidental.

You guys are saying he isn't scum because you can't see the scum motivation. Why would town lie?

it absolutely could have been accidental, and probably was regardless of his alignment lol. tell me this: what is pisskop-scum gaining from lying here? what did lying do to help his scum cause?
like I said IN THE POST YOU QUOTED, I've accidentally lied by not checking my facts before. it's not called lying if the person didn't intend to do it - it's called a mistake. it's not a scumtell if the player lying has nothing to gain from lying.
this isn't an "oh you disagree, you do your thing I'll do mine" kind of situation. unless you can show some sort of reason for pisskop to lie like he did as scum, your read holds no weight.

I'm having trouble, I have no scumreads. I've got a few townreads, but nowhere that seems like a good place to put a vote.
spicer: I'm also starting to reconsider my read on Gray. not really seeing anything that screams scum to me, but I'm losing sight of what made him town in the first place

also, happy scumday GrayFox

[Annarchy]

^ what's that based on? just general scumreads, or is there a reason those three in particular hold scum?

[Annarchy]

ISOed Gray again, I'm still feeling town there. I disagree with Boon that his interactions with Bulba are scum v scum.

right now I want to say things are down to KK, pisskop, and possibly Dom? with spicer and dragonspawn towning it up lately those are the three left that I can easily see being scum. the only one of the townreads I haven't looked at lately is Woody's slot, but I felt very strong on that and I highly doubt that's changing

so to answer Gray: KK and pisskop both sound like excellent wagons at the moment. also could go for some pressure on Dom.
VOTE: KK

[Annarchy]

implosion is town.

[Annarchy]

Yeah. I just ISO'd myself and Bulbazoor. You guys should probably lynch me. If I was one of you, I'd be on me too.

I'm not scum, but I'm not super important to town so it's not big loss. If you leave me alive I'm only going to be a distraction later on at probably worse timing.

I hate it when I see stuff like this not on like a personal level, but it's one of those things that scum totally COULD fake, but in practice usually don't

KK, did you post this with the knowledge that it would WIFOM someone like me out >_<

[Annarchy]

my case: implosion, Boonskiies, GrayFox, you, dragonspawn, and Woody's slot are town, and that doesn't leave many options

KK I want to hear your thoughts on pisskop. I have trouble reading him. can you do some analysis on his posts?

[Annarchy]

your last two posts feel very genuine to me KK.

VOTE: pisskop like this better than KK right now
I'm considering the possibility of a pisskop/Dom team with an outside chance of Woody

[Annarchy]

(fwiw I'm conscious of the fact that my vote has been flopping all over the place. I feel like I operate best this way)

[Annarchy]

just looked at your ISO, and I really think it's plausible.

your pushes on both Bulba and Dom have been hardly anything. with Bulba you placed a vote there, but then said you'd be fine with Shazam too and also threw a little suspicion FA's way. it's almost like you were passively defending Bulba, because hardly anything you said backed up your belief in him being scum (at least until he slipped)

then with Dom, you literally just put a vote there at the beginning of the day, and NOTHING you've said since then has mentioned him at all. you're making no effort to push your lynch through there.

so yeah, I can see it. in fact I'd say you and Dom are the only people on the Bulb wagon that make sense as bussers.

[Annarchy]

And the way Foxx has acted after that has seriously not helped the cause at all.

I'm voting KK who seems to be a pretty common scum read. Sorry if that's acting scummy.

see, stuff like this is what makes me doubt my town read on you Gray
also I'm pretty sure like half of the people who initially suspected KK are now looking another direction/starting to think otherwise

His post seem like coaching? even though he could have just talked to him in scum chat.

Only reason I think you would ask this is to seem like a town who is ignorant.

When scum interact with scum in thread they will ask each other things like

So bulb what do you want to tell your buddies?

I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

Your basically saying I'm too storm too be town. Makes a ton of sense

I hate it when people say I'm too storm

[Annarchy]

right now my shit reads list goes like this

town

Boonskiies
implosion
spicer
KK

some degree of leaning somewhere

dragonspawn
WoodyWoodpecker
GrayFox

scum maybe?

Dom
pisskop

[Annarchy]

but then there's also weird doubt in my pisskop vote and ugh

basically I suck

[Annarchy]

Why me? Why kop
What makes you town reads town.
You've done no explaining anna

I don't like to explain townreads unless there's a particular reason to, like if that player is close to being lynched or something. because most of the time others' townreads are ignored in favor of people's personal views on a player. townreads are more likely to be ignored than scumreads. PARTICULARLY right now, I don't have very much confidence in my reads, so I would like to be a little more passive and wait for things to make more sense for me before asserting my opinion

And the way Foxx has acted after that has seriously not helped the cause at all.

I'm voting KK who seems to be a pretty common scum read. Sorry if that's acting scummy.

see, stuff like this is what makes me doubt my town read on you Gray
also I'm pretty sure like half of the people who initially suspected KK are now looking another direction/starting to think otherwise

You're the towniest player that I see. I don't mind answering any questions you have. Please ask anything, I do want to cooperate with you.

Boon said my actions are scummy. All I have done is bicker with him,and spicer. So I'm guessing he meant my vote on KK. Am I looking at it wrong?

I initially voted KK as an agreement between you and Dom.

But if you guys have a better scum read let me know and we can discuss the best coarse of action.

I guess I'd like to know where you stand on pisskop? just focusing on him, what's your read? right now I'm not interested in voting the other two options you said you were interested in (implosion and KK) but I would really like to get a better idea of what people are thinking on pisskop
actually

hey everyone, if you haven't given an opinion on pisskop, could you show your thoughts there?

to give people a better idea of what I'm thinking right now, pisskop is currently my pick for most likely to be scum... but at the same time, in a vacuum I would place him at essentially null. basically I have too many townreads.

[Annarchy]

something to note about GrayFox: most people are scumreading him for trying to call himself obvious town. I just went through his meta to see if this had happened before. read his ISO in this game - he does pretty much the exact same thing as town. that makes me think his recent actions are more null than anything

Anna, what do you think of Boons/Spicers/KK reasons I must be scum? Are they potentially ignoring other players just to prove a point? Not KK so much as I think he is just sheeping Boon at this point.

oops just answered part of this. but I'm looking through a triple ISO of the three of them.

KK's first reads list had you (GrayFox) as town, saying you "towntold pretty hard" early on. I agree with this, but I've also had doubts of whether I was right there, so I'm not sure if that's inconsistency by KK or just second-guessing himself
in fact the more I read KK, the more I think he's town and I'm just paranoid that he's some super strong scum just because he joined in '08 and has a colorful name. his reads on pisskop, GrayFox and Boon flow pretty naturally, how I would expect them to go from town
I don't like spicer's reasoning. it's like the discussion I had with Shazam on D1. I'll go ahead and quote that

the last eight pages of my read only did two things:
1) reinforce my Woodpecker townread
2) make me start looking at Shazam as a scumread. I started thinking about this when I saw post 523, and while I could have make this observation earlier, I guess it finally clicked when I saw this: Shazam is pushing heavily on the Mario wagon for something that is essentially a weak-player-tell. it's not very appealing play no, but Mario's 10 posts could easily, EASILY be from a new, weak town player. I have ISO'd Shazam and seen his reasoning, and not only do I disagree that Mario's actions are telling, I also think Shazam is claiming far too much confidence in his read on the Mario slot.

So you think that I'm far too confident that Mario is scum from actions that you see as just incorrect, not scummy. And my incorrectness (from your PoV) makes you think I'm scum. Oh the irony. And don't try to pretend that this "far too much confidence" is anything more than you seeing me as incorrect. If you thought I was correct, the confidence would just seem natural to you.

I think the same flaw I had there is what spicer is having here.
and I'm sorry but I'm not even going to try reading into Boon's reasoning. he makes little sense to me. he's town though

I wanna hear more thoughts from anna about kk/how strongly she feels he's town.

I keep kind of answering my next question before I get to it lol
but KK has been moving up in my town reads to the point where I wouldn't be willing to lynch him today. I was originally wary of my reasoning for his "you should lynch me" post being town, but my town read on him is backed up in other places. it's mostly what I said in response to GrayFox, his reads look like they're coming from the mindset of town trying to honestly figure out what people are as opposed to pushing opinions. he seems slightly unsure of his reads atm like I am also. I have five townreads I'd claim good confidence in, and he's the fifth (the other four being you, Boon, dragonspawn, and spicer, in that order).

so you feel confident on GrayFox being town. thoughts on piss/Dom/the Woody slot? do you see any possibility of a scumteam between two of the three of them?
to be honest I'd love to see the Woody slot get vig'd


I know someone wanted more explanation on all my townreads, but that will have to come later. I've already explained quite a few here

[Annarchy]

I know, it's SO horrible to have to click one extra time to read his post UGH
he's actually trying to make things MORE convenient, so don't be a dick about it

I don't have time for an actual post but I had to do that

[Annarchy]

lol this guy

I'll give some input on Persivul's stuff later, but spoiler: I'm going to disagree with a lot

[Annarchy]

Scum was lynched D1. It seems likely that scum can be found in people:

- who were NOT on the scum D1 wagon, and
- who ARE on the main D2 wagon.

can you back this supposition up with statistics? I would be highly surprised if this tends to be true

1272 - 8 days in he finally makes a vote. I'm beginning to take lack of voting as a scumtell, I suppose to keep their names out of VCs since those get used more later in the game.

did you just make this up
like, again, I'd love to see if this is backed up by previous occurrences, but I really don't think spicer would be purposefully avoiding putting himself in the VC, even if he is scum
that's just ridiculous

I disagree with many of Persivul's points and dislike his approach, but I'm not really getting much of a read from his actions atm.

I still want to lynch pisskop

[Annarchy]

I've done several of those in response to other questions. maybe not ALL of them, but most of the particularly strong ones. and there are a couple I'd rather not share the reasons for. basically, all the townreads I'd like to be explained, I already have explained.

I disagree with many of Persivul's points and dislike his approach, but I'm not really getting much of a read from his actions atm.

Your biggest read on me should be based on what's

not

happening. I replaced into a presumably 8:2 game and took heat early. If I were scum my scum buddy would likely have attempted some damage control and/or a big diversion.

has ANYONE besides dragonspawn called you scum

[Annarchy]

I mean I agree, but I wouldn't say Persivul is taking any sort of heat

[Annarchy]

what a great reason to replace out, especially since this slot has been suffering for over a week

I got a new computer, I'll be a little lurky while I get it all figured out

[Annarchy]

if nothing else, I REALLY don't think KK would stoop low enough to push for his own lynch to gain town cred as scum. it's WIFOMy, but seriously. especially since Bulb-scum already tried this without success.
it's at the point where I'd basically join any wagon that's not the KK wagon to avoid that lynch.

[Annarchy]

oh it was hammer

[Annarchy]

KK could you give final reads?

[Annarchy]

gg guys well played by Boon especially, making me second-guess my initial read on you

[Annarchy]

say them now, the drama will be fun to watch

[Annarchy]

Casualty report

Boonskiies - Town - backup 1-shot vigilante
Boonskiies - Neutral - serial killer
Boonskiies - Mafia - vanilla

[Annarchy]

btw Boon/piss, this isn't a pony avatar.

[Annarchy]

P&S is basically the South Park of anime. enough said

balance-wise, I'd say this was probably spot-on. I get the feeling players during D3 were assuming there would be a little more town power, but I think it had enough.

[Annarchy]

I'll do it