Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Tammy]

Hi!

VOTE: nacho

Nacho - I'm town. I hope you're town too. I've recently realized that maybe part of the reason it was difficult to get/feel good about reads on each other in forest fire was me feeling weird about the sorting process because and making the interaction stilted. Maybe. I think. Anyway, I'm going to try to be more open and less weird and hopefully that will make it easier to read and feel good about our reads. Please be town.

Implosion - in case you didn't see it in the sign ups, I'm so happy you joined this game. Please be town too.

[Tammy]

I'm sorry!

I wasn't meaning to leave anyone out . I hope all of you are town and am happy to be playing with all of you and want to work with all of you.

If you all fancy it I can make a personal statement/reach out for everyone when I get home from pub quiz tonight!

I haven't read anything yet and probably won't until I get home tonight weeeee!

Also I realized that town has a winning streak so far in empire's games, so hopefully we'll continue that trend

[Tammy]

Awe red coyote I hop we don't butt heads! I think we did pretty well in bees for that short time we were there! We were reading the game differently, but thats not terrible!

I'll be interested in nachos take on red coyote because he feels like he's good at reading him.

[Tammy]

I told you I was town in my first post!

Beyond that I'm not sure if anyone will know why that post is far far more likely to come from town me. Regardless I'll shine later.

[Tammy]

I ended up playing video games when I got home, but I have free time this weekend so I'll be around. Just not tonight cuz Im going to sleep now or watch the walking dead or fall asleep while watching the walking dead.

You guys got serious already though!

I also don't characterize red coyote as low hanging fruit.

Also, implosion I have learned how to fake some of my town tells, but I like and think you probably nailed why my response to you was town even if you wouldn't know why my first post was town.

I thought I had something else to say, maybe it will come to me later.

Oh right, I think it's rather too early to go this wagon contains scum cuz low hanging fruit. I mean meh sure any things good for an early push I guess but that kind of thing makes me feel squicky.

Anyway, sleep or walking dead and sleep so tomorrow!

A domani!

[Tammy]

Actually I mean later today.

[Tammy]

I don't have any thoughts on anyone really yet though because I'm utterl useless.

Except I'm leaning town on implosion for first telling me I have some town telling to do and then the reasoning for why my response was probably town. It doesn't feel like straining to give a town read on someone before they should and it shows thought.

[Tammy]

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

I have a couple markers for his town game that wouldn't manifest themselves until later, if they do at all. Beyond that I have absolutely no clue how to read him. Last swag town we both suspected each other and I wrote the hugest, most hilariously wrong case on him, and it took Nacho replacing in and laughing at how wrong I was to wrench me out of my tunnel. We've had minimal experience since then.

Nacho didn't seem to have a problem with his entrance, so I really don't.

I do know he prefers scum and that is where he feels his strengths lie. I think he's a bit more image conscious as scum, so I'm not sure he'd start out the way he has a scum? That doesn't feel super strong and I was interested in how he comes back. I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

I find some of the reactions a bit weird. Not sciences make sense as it was directed toward him. Feeling weird about pixel guy doing the wagon analysis already and calling it low hanging fruit. Those are really the only ones that stuck out to me.

I just woke up and I think I'm going to go for a walk because damn it's beautiful outside. I'll get around to actually reading the thread in a bit.

[Tammy]

Okay I have caught up.

I think I have an early town read on ffery, which while I've tended to town read her by mid day one, I don't tend to town read her this early but I guess I could be making up for being stupidly paranoid of her in forest fire? not science feels townish but I thought he had stopped with his town reading thing so I'm a little confused. Implosion and Layla both look town. As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry. I kinda would expect nacho to town read him today anyway as I think he'd be more accurate in the coming days.

Gnomeo - Is that a serious vote on me? If it is, who do you think I'm manipulating? How and Why?

Okay this was planned to be a more insightful post but I'm headed out the door unexpectedly. So tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Oh but real quick...cheetory/anen/gnomeo/vinka are my major concerns right now.

It's okay wicked! I'll get there. I just haven't gotten into the game yet.

[Tammy]

Gnomes - how was I trying to manipulate Nacho in the post?

I have other things to talk about but I feel like the people oh noing my suspicions didn't actually read my posts, which if you're going to be concerned about what I said I'd appreciate actually reading. It wasn't a Poe pool or shadowing, those are people I'm concerned about and want to talk about, and people who have extremely minimal experience with me probably shouldn't use meta for what I do or don't normally do. But beyond that, actually reading my posts would be a start. I said I planned a longer, more thoughtful post but unexpectedly has to leave. In the middle of writing that post, I got a text message and left. I think I made that pretty clear that I had more thoughts but left.

Anen's acting like he's lynched already and like he can't possibly be suspected so early feels weird. I've only skimmed the recent pages though.

Cheetory - you were a very early pretty decent town read for me in signs and void.

Anyway, I'm going back to sleep and will be back when I get back home tonight.

[Tammy]

Ffery - I will. Tonight. Hopefully I'll have my laptop back and I won't have to post on my iPad.

Layla - read my fucking post. I got a text message and left my house before I could finish my post. Like geezuz do you people need me to say in it several languages? I think it's pretty clear, I left before I got to finish all my thoughts, do what I was going to do. And quite frankly, my vote might have stayed exactly where t was, I'll not be pressured to vote anywhere by anyone, so you can get over yourself.

[Tammy]

I WASNT DONE SAYING EVERYTHING I WANTED TO SAY.

I WASNT DONE LOOKING BACK AT THE PEOPLE I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT AND WHY.

I GOT INTERRUPTED MID-THOUGHT AND LEFT MY HOUSE.

I'm not sure why this continues to be a complicated thing to understand. I have very intention of finishing what I started last night tonight. At this moment, I have no idea where my vote will end up.

[Tammy]

I am voting someone, and I am not changing my vote until I'm fully caught up and know who, if anyone, I want to vote for.

You can continue looking busy by getting after me about it though! I'm sure if someone else tells me to change my vote before I'm ready, I'll totally cave!

[Tammy]

Oh sorry :/

I've just poured my second glass of wine!

[Tammy]

I think it would be funny if the scum team is Nacho/anenin/cheetory because then they could be team quote stripes!

I've also kinda been thinking about possible setups here as I think empire likes to experiment with stuff. I don't think he'd do multiball, but I do wonder if he'd do serial killer? I can't remember how he feels about those. Anyway ny 169 was him experimenting to see how a higher powered but lower numbered team would do as opposed to lower powered higher number, which he favors, if I remember correctly. Anyway, this doesn't really mean anything just something I was wondering about.

[Tammy]

Oh wait gnomes is a quote striker too so there's four to choose from.

[Tammy]

Okay cutting down posts in the iPad sucks so:

Gnomes - you missed the how I was manipulating Nacho part. Also if you think I know him well enough that that would be manipulation, why do you think I wouldnt know him well enough to town read him early? (FTR as of that post I had no read on Nacho, not being a major concern doesn't mean town read. I did list my town reads though! It's funny you missed that he wasn't on that list and assumed.)

Why can't you be of concern even if that was a joke? Why do i have to know if you were serious in your scum read of me to be concerned about you?

[Tammy]

is there any actual reason to the sk thought, or just Empire'safuckingcoolguy?
curiousity killed the waffles?
eck?

Waffles is doing just fine!

Just kinda thinking out loud about what he might do.

[Tammy]

A part of me wants to join the gnomes wagon because damn is that scum read and reasoning on me is horrible, but I'm also feeling a bit omgus over it. Anyway, I'll be interested in his response to see if it actually makes sense.

[Tammy]

I'm posting from my iPad, so I apologize for how disjointed this will end up being. I'm slow as fuck typing in this thing and I'm drinking, so. My laptop will stop being held hostage tomorrow though, so I'll fix anything that doesn't make sense tomorrow.

[Tammy]

The only game I remember I have with anen is the recent team mafia game that he replaced into for psyche. He replaced into a slot that had a fair amount of suspicion on it be he seemed together. I'll have to look back because I think where he was caught out was reads that didn't make sense and a thought regression that didn't make sense. I don't at all understand his attitude here because he's experienced enough to know that a small wagon on day one less than ten oves into the game doesn't mean an auto lynch, but at the same time he feels like he'd be more composed about it as scum? Layla did point out an interesting thing though with him pointing out "shDowers" but then not including pieguyn in his list

He's someone I'll have to look back at though because I just don't understand.

[Tammy]

I don't think that cheetorys game was slow in signs and voids so I'm not sure what he's referncing. I did town read him early, and while it was for a specific reason, I think the inquisitiveness and honest decision on reads is something that translates.

PArt of what bugs me about him is gut and something I can't quite put my finger on but hope to in coming days.

It feels weird that he's claiming that worrying about him is abusing his reputation before he can get invested. What is this reputation that were supposed to be abusing? I'm also feeling a bit squicky about the whole, how dare people make Poe lists before page ten, and tammy doesn't usually do that. Because qua? It's like he and anen decided to take a page from the Same playbook and go how dare you scum read me, oh Im lynched, whatever shall I do.

I don't know. Feels weird. He's also up in arms that people suspect him without interacting with them but he's doing th same thing. I mean sure hypocrisy is not a scum tell but it feels off. His Nacho read also feels wrong in the way he's discussed it.

On the other hand, his ill mak ffery or tammy pay feels somewhat townish, so yeah not sure.

~~~

I like alts as much as the next person but I also think that it does nothing for the game/is a distraction when the alt is like haha I'm an alt, here's the meta I know - which is in many cases wrong - but haha you don't get to answer for it because I can say what I think about your meta but be secretive about it and you can't actually answer for it. Mala kittens did that to me in mafia in the air and it drove me bonkers.

[Tammy]

Vinkah - since you're an alt and know this player list can you talk about why you thought the push on red coyote was low hanging fruit?

[Tammy]

i think i did?
RC is a strong player. yes? his entrance into this game is abnormal, is that that the right word, for him? i don't see what scum or town motivation RC gets out of his entrance. all being said, whether the push was town manufactured to generate content, scum manufactured to do shtuff it was manufactured on crap. again, i might have dipped too much into some pinot grigio, but yeah?

Your read on that is where I started concern about you. Red coyote obviously hadn't been the player who didn't know anyone here, so the argument that he was the player that didn't fit and that's why he was getting wagoned felt wrong before, but if you're familiar with the majority of us, it feels even more wrong now.

[Tammy]

For much the same reasons I'm inclined to vote gnomeo right now.

Tammy, when you get a chance, your thoughts on Nacho?

I think my thoughts on Nacho will have to wait until tomorrow.

I liked his response to me and that he defended the gnomes point, but he could do that as either alignment. I do think of anyone here, he'd know why that first post of mine would be unlikely to come from scum me, even if he wouldn't be able to explain completely why. Not that I'm above trying to manipulate Nacho as scum, but it's very unlikely to come from me in that way.

I'm interested in his gnomes push, he's doing it in a way I associate with town him as are some of his other reads and way he's reading people.

I mean gun to my head, I'd have him as slightly townish above null, but I feel like that's too early of a call to make right now.

I did like his too many town reads thing though.

This probably isn't helpful at the moment though.

[Tammy]

it doesn't preclude one from being scum, but in a cast of apparently strong players, many who seem to know each other, it just seems that RedCoyote is being pushed for being the square who doesn't fit into a circle hole.

cursory glance, RedCoyote seems to be a pretty good player, again in a cast of players such as this i have a hard time coming to terms that scumRedCoyote would open so fugly. bit of bordeaux, maybe.

it's not RedCoyote being low hanging fruit, but the push on him being low hanging fruit (something easy for Scum to address)

scum in {pieguyn, notscience, Cheetory6} and Aneninen

pieguyn and notscience seem to be Town and of the remaining two

vote: Aneninen

These are the posts I was concerned about.

[Tammy]

I think I'm stuck on not seeing red coyote as low-hanging fruit or being seen that way in this player list.

I don't understand your second paragraph. Are you referring to reading me or reading Nacho?

[Tammy]

kinda both.

If I wind up with a scum read of nacho based on stuff I've seen you scumread him for, and you townread him, then either I'm wrong or you're wrong. Either way, My sense of the lay of the game will be seriously warped by sorting through possibilities like you're just missing it and nacho's scum, I'm totally off base and nacho's town, You're scum and townreading nacho because you know he's town, or omg shoot me now you're both scum.

Lol. Well I'm not exactly sure how I can assure you that I'm town except I think it will be increasingly apparent in my posts. I may not obvtown exactly like I used to, but I still think town is what I do. I really do think that as scum I'd have opened up a completely different way, though I guess it wouldn't preclude the idea of us being scum together.

My big problem with reading Nacho is often giving him way too much leeway early on. I know this, he knows this. He's told me that he's learned to gauge when I'm going to get serious about my read in him and make a real push. anyway I'm sort of in the process of some renegotiating some of the ways I read him and what those weaknesses are. I also know that I tend to town read someone after having a bad read in them. Forest fire was a particular bad paranoia read in you both. I know I overcompensate.

All of this is kinda why I think it's going to take me longer than usual to feel decent about that read.

[Tammy]

If I don't consider this quantum entanglement, I have a decent townread of you at this point. And I'd probably have nacho as that sort of null that I really want to close one eye and tilt my head and go "yeah, town".

rereading ny 169 probably helps with the entanglement of your reads, because you didn't seem to see scum in nacho while you were in the game, unless I skipped over some of your posts last night. mara townread the shit out of Thor. And I had this scumread that I didn't hold onto, and wound up actually defending Nacho for most of my time in that game.

If I remember correctly, I had concerns about nacho/thor in that game and ended day one with a slight scum read on them but needed more.

My read on Nacho, especially early game, tends to be in flux.

[Tammy]

Gnomes - how was I trying to manipulate Nacho in the post?

I'm town. I hope you're town so you can trust me. I don't see any reasons for doing this other than you want him on your side.

I do want him on my side. I hope he's town too.

There was more there that gave it context. I was hoping to see you negotiate with that and talk about why that might seem like manipulation rather than just the "I'm town. I hope you're town too." Thing. You indicate that you've played with Nacho before. Do you think he's so easily manipulated that me telling him I'm town and I hoped he was too would manipulate him?

Why are you ignoring everyone telling you that this is pretty standard for me? Why are you also ignoring the fact that Nacho didn't find it out of sorts? If this was something out of the ordinary for me, why is everyone who's played with me going, nah that's just Tammy and you're like nope I know better?

When I say a statement like "you're playing well if you're scum", it means that the posts looks town and couldn't be faked unless that player is particularly on their game. Your vote on Tammy seems weird if you're scum reading me, considering your whole case on her seems to be centered around the "Tammy is manipulating Nacho" scenario.

Why can't it be faked? Looks pretty easy to me. You are right about the other thing though. If you're both scum, it's unlikely that you'll play like this. However, unlikely doesn't make it impossible.
Additionally: I said "you might be scum". You've done nothing to make me townread you, which usually happens after 1 or 2 posts I read from you.

I'll let Nacho respond to the faked thing, but:

If you usually town read Nacho after one or two posts, why did you accuse me of buddying him by town reading him so easily?

Because here:

Implosion and Layla both look town. As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry

Does this mean you're townreading Nacho? I don't really see how you can townread him so fast. Feels like buddying.

You're suggesting he can't be town read that fast. He'd made five posts by that point. What makes you think that I can't read Nacho quickly if you can?

Just because I'm a major concern doesn't mean that I'm a town read, but it's weird how you made this assumption to further your push on her and I really don't like how it feels like you're ignoring such a large swath of the game while doing so. I mean yeah, time, but there are other things that could use some comments too.

I didn't remember asking you this question. why do you answer for Tammy?

Why can't he address a bad point against me as part of his scum read on you? You are misinterpreting my post to Nacho in order to scum read me, so feels like a pretty similar thing.

[Tammy]

I don't think that cheetorys game was slow in signs and voids so I'm not sure what he's referncing. I did town read him early, and while it was for a specific reason, I think the inquisitiveness and honest decision on reads is something that translates.

I remember Shadow saying that I asked questions that felt like I should have the answers to. I also remember telling Tier that I was sorry for having such a shitty start. I also have no idea what you mean by inquisitiveness and honest decision on reads bit here.

I don't remember any of that, and perhaps it was after I replaced out? I don't know why people think I should have some recollection of things that have nothing to do with me. Kinda like when Zar claimed I should know he wouldn't put tokens for scum because of something he said in the team mafia after game thread three years ago.

My impression of you was inquisitive and honest with your reads. Early game you seemed concerned that I was faking not knowing the setup. You also originally thought it was odd that I focused a lot on me, but then you reread my iso and realized that in the context of the conversations happening in real time that it made sense. I thought that looked town of you because you could have easily thrown suspicion on me for faking not knowing the set up. Also rereading and thinking the things looked normal in the context of the conversation read inquisitive and your reads came out of that looking like you were honestly trying to figure out the game.

So yeah, slow start or no, I think that a certain type of inquisitiveness and honesty in trying to figure out the game translates.

It feels weird that he's claiming that worrying about him is abusing his reputation before he can get invested. What is this reputation that were supposed to be abusing?

Let’s talk at people about this instead of asking me about it weeeeeeee.
My reputation is that I’m apparently a good town player and it’s kind of annoying that people compare the entirety of my performance in S&V to the start of other games when I have less time, less dedication and more games going on simultaneously that I’m also trying to balance.

I'm not going to directly ask a person everything that's on my mind and I think it's really disingenuous of you to think I'm suspicious for not doing that. I'm going to just highlight the hypocrisy problem that I already noted right here. I have no idea what your reputation is. You're the one who jumped to people suspecting you, including me, for reputation purposes.

But it's interesting that you're trying to claim this isn't my town game while simultaneously just comparing it to S&V.

I'm also feeling a bit squicky about the whole, how dare people make Poe lists before page ten, and tammy doesn't usually do that. Because qua? It's like he and anen decided to take a page from the Same playbook and go how dare you scum read me, oh Im lynched, whatever shall I do.

Yeah because that’s totally the same thing. I’m having a hard time believing that Anen’s self-destruction and me saying that you having a lynchpool earlygame is off is comparable in your head.

You both have this underlying "I'm suspected already oh no that's not right whatever will I do" feel to you.

Also, why do you think me having a suspect pool early game is off?

I don't know. Feels weird. He's also up in arms that people suspect him without interacting with them but he's doing th same thing. I mean sure hypocrisy is not a scum tell but it feels off. His Nacho read also feels wrong in the way he's discussed it.

Yeah well, I don't like that you're not probing me on the details of this stuff, and are instead just kind of throwing it out there. So I guess we’re even

When you scumread Empire/Zar/Espe in S&V it felt like, to me, that you were asking them questions to try and put them down if they were scum, where here you're just kind of throwing stuff out there and saying it feels off without having done anything about it.

I feel like this is disingenuous as fuck suspicion. Because I don't think for one second that you think that every time I have a scum read I post a bunch of questions about them and I completely believe that you know that I'll talk about my scum reads the exact way I have here.

You're also comparing apples to oranges and for someone who wants for people to understand that signs and void isn't the end all be all you're doing a fair bit of this yourself, while also not actually asking me questions about this.

SOOOOOOOOO. Empire is a real life friend and we hydra together. Zar used to be a "friend" and we knew each other before playing mafia and started playing mafia together at my home site, westeros. Espeonage and I have several games of experience together, have been scum partners and have hydrad together.

As far as Empire/Zar goes. It was team mafia. I knew that empire was excited to play team mafia. He was also on a team with Regfan. I had certain expectations for their team interaction in that I expected that both empire and regfan would have thoughts on the game and that they would have told Zar to share their thoughts. So when Zar wasn't showing any indication that their teammates were reading the game, while iirc his other teammates were in their games, I got suspicious. Instead of answer my questions in a way that would be conducive to the game Zar decided to be a bit insulting (not exactly the right word). That made no sense to me, but hey I thought quite highly of Zar until that game and reading the westeros qt, so I didn't think a town him would behave that way and instead did what he did because he was scum.

Espeonage kept attacking me for the mind-numbingly stupidest stuff. I thought he was probably town and that his attacks were personal because they made no sense whatsoever with the way he was going about it. I replaced out.

So, what's comparable to here? This is early game, you don't have a lot of content, I don't know you so I wouldn't know exactly what to prod you about, and I'm giving impressions of the people in this game and what my concerns are. I feel off to a pretty good start here and actually am more engaged in the first 10 pages of a game than I normally am, so.

Like. To me, it seems a lot like you're trying to set up a scumread on me so you have options, rather than actually trying to figure me out and all of this "these things make me feel weird but Iunno" feels like a weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing around while you're not even really trying to engage me on things. Are you just kind of hoping I'll sort myself out? Because this passive scumhunting feels off, especially since I have already poked at you and in response you've just kind of flopped semi-angrily at me.

This feels disingenuous because I don't think that you would think it's scummy that I would talk about things I'm concerned about early without doing a lot of questioning.

I'm pretty amused at the weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing at me when it's pretty standard. Like people have tried to get me a waffle title for over a year now because how much uncertainty is a part of my play style. I weigh everything and what everything could potentially mean. That's me trying to figure things out, which is funny because you say I'm not doing that. As scum, I always have options. I don't have to set up a scum read on you. As scum, I could easily call you town and change my mind a few pages later.

You're using incorrect meta on me while claiming that it's not right/fair that people are using signs and voids, which also using signs and voids to put suspicion on me. And yes, I do want you to sort yourself out. How I read people is quite often how they read/interact with the game. I poke at things as I think they're going to help me. I'm not going to force myself to ask things just to do it. I know when things are off in my town game, but there's not anything off in my game and I feel pretty strong here, so I'm really not sure what you're seeing.

I also kind of feel like your angry responses to people feel too strong. Where your angry response to Zar felt like it made sense in the context, you being angry at Layla felt a lot like an unreasonably angry reaction to her asking you why you hadn’t used your vote. Especially since the way she was asking you about it felt entirely reasonable to me.

Part of this response is a response to the above point. Yeah, you guys are annoying because you're not reading. You dismissed my concerns about you before I even talked about it with something like reputation and gave incorrect meta on me. (IE do I or don't I give a suspect pool, which yes, I do. And even though I as a matter of course don't do reads lists, I sometimes even do those!) It also indicated that you weren't reading, and this is my major problem with Layla. I literally said I was headed out the door unexpectedly and would finish my post later. I quickly gave the people I was concerned about both to remind myself what I was thinking at the time of reading the post and to get some early thoughts out there so people could see where I was.

After I posted that I had to leave unexpectedly, Layla made the comment about the vote and asked me to explain my concerns about you, which indicated that she didn't read my post completely or missed that I didn't finish because I left. You did a similar thing in which you dismissed my thoughts before I could even finish.

I wasn't angry when I posted Saturday afternoon about people not recognizing that I left before finishing my thoughts, slightly annoyed because I wish people would read, but hey people miss things. I said I'd give more thoughts and clarified that in the middle of making a post I got a text message and left. I thought that was clear.

She came back to point out that she was calling me out and then told me to respond to her other post. While quoting my post in which I said that I had other things to talk about and would later, and clarified that I got a text message mid post and left. That's annoying. I would expect anyone who was actually reading and actually trying to figure things out, when it's clarified that that "I unexpectedly have to walk out the door, this was supposed to be more insightful. It will have to wait until tomorrow." was that I literally left mid-post that the response wouldn't be a stubborn blowback of "oh I was calling you out blah blah bla". What I would expect from town would be, ah I didn't catch that, because to me if her big suspicion of me was that I didn't change my vote my response that I left mid thought would answer for that.

It's irksome. Now if she wanted to claim that I was lying about leaving and I just was too afraid to finish my thoughts and put a different vote down, then hey okay. I'd probably be more perturbed at the stupidity of that, but at least it would indicate that she'd actually read my posts. Talking to a brick wall is not fun at all, and quite frankly that kind of thing makes me worry about scum posturing, like she can't possibly go "ah you left, okay I'll see what you do" because that might make her look like she's backing down or something. I don't know how much I believe this, but a brick wall is a brick wall and it's annoying.

And what she wanted me to do was vote for aneninen whom I don't even know if I want to vote for. I don't know who I want to vote for, so the call out for a vote would have been met with a meh regardless, but I hate when people don't read my posts when they're going to call me out or suspect me or at least acknowledge when they misunderstood or missed something.

[Tammy]

@Gnomeo

, do you intend on being stubborn every time someone tries to reach out/pull apart your scumread on Tammy by just asking them why they're doing it?
Why is Tammy buddying Nacho and not scum trying to emulate a very distinctive manner in which she tends to open her towngames? What does she have to gain by being so overt if that's her goal in the former situation?

This feels like a weird post to make after making a post all about how you think I'm scum.

[Tammy]

I can't exactly put my finger on why that feels off or bugs me, but it does.

[Tammy]

But, and doesn't it feel like we say the same things over and over on this site, I don't want to really bring meta into it. Some days you're on, some days you're off. Sometimes happy, sometimes sad. We're not robots. Feelings matter. Emotions matter. These things change us. How we think, talk, posture...

I feel like this could have been a summary of me trying to explain to you my meta the last swag town game that wouldn't have come across so contradictory. :p

[Tammy]

I'm thinking back to how pyrotechnic some of our earlier game encounters were, until I had more of a handle on her town game, and had played against scum-Tammy a couple times.

heh, at first I was reading pyrotechnic as my hydra with syry and was trying to figure out how that sentence worked out. I can be quite temperamental at times, huh Also, I've noticed that sometimes I tend to butt heads with people/strong voices until I get a better handle on them and they do me. Tierce and I went from always trying to lynch each other and practically ripping each other's hair out to understanding each other and working really well together/strongly defending each other through a matter of games. I've tried working on not being so bitchy, I sometimes fail at it.

[Tammy]

regardless of what you think about meta, if you say someone is scum for X and then someone tells you they do X as town all the time, you don't just entirely handwave dismiss it.

So your point is: regardless of what you think about meta, if someone gives you a meta argument, you have to agree to it? Sorry, but no.

No, you don't. But if you were trying to understand me, why not engage on that point instead of just ignore it?

Gnomes - you missed the how I was manipulating Nacho part. Also if you think I know him well enough that that would be manipulation, why do you think I wouldnt know him well enough to town read him early? (FTR as of that post I had no read on Nacho, not being a major concern doesn't mean town read. I did list my town reads though! It's funny you missed that he wasn't on that list and assumed.)

Why can't you be of concern even if that was a joke? Why do i have to know if you were serious in your scum read of me to be concerned about you?

He wasn't on your town reads no. However, how am I supposed to know those are all your town reads?
Allow me to quote:

Implosion and Layla both look town. As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry

So part of your townread is nacho feeling okay about him. But you don't have a read on Nacho. Why do you trust the feeling of a null read?

Why wouldn't I?

There was never an indication that I'm blindly following Nacho's reads but am using it to balance out my own reads. For instance, did you miss this?

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

I have a couple markers for his town game that wouldn't manifest themselves until later, if they do at all. Beyond that I have absolutely no clue how to read him. Last swag town we both suspected each other and I wrote the hugest, most hilariously wrong case on him, and it took Nacho replacing in and laughing at how wrong I was to wrench me out of my tunnel. We've had minimal experience since then.

Nacho didn't seem to have a problem with his entrance, so I really don't.

I do know he prefers scum and that is where he feels his strengths lie. I think he's a bit more image conscious as scum, so I'm not sure he'd start out the way he has a scum? That doesn't feel super strong and I was interested in how he comes back. I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

I find some of the reactions a bit weird. Not sciences make sense as it was directed toward him. Feeling weird about pixel guy doing the wagon analysis already and calling it low hanging fruit. Those are really the only ones that stuck out to me.

I just woke up and I think I'm going to go for a walk because damn it's beautiful outside. I'll get around to actually reading the thread in a bit.

Because in the midst of questioning my read on Red Coyote, it's weird that you missed what I expected and liked about red coyote.

Beyond that there are so many reasons why I could just accept a null reads feelings on another person. I know that Nacho feels like he can read red coyote well. Therefore there are many things that can tell you. At this moment, I don't think they're both scum. I have an early inkling that he's town, but I'm well aware of my failings at reading him. Nacho didn't show concern about his opening, so I'm not going to. Beyond that, I'm not really going to go into all the whys of why I'd take a null read into account on RC as I feel like anyone with much experience with mafia knows the benefits to watching how someone's reads develop.

I also know that a town!Nacho could be misreading a scum!Red Coyote early so even if I had a town read on Nacho, I'd still be looking at RC but using Nacho's read to balance out my own.

If I know that someone is good at reading someone else, I always take that into account. I also feel like you didn't really read this post because I talked about how we all played a game together in which I suspected RC horribly and Nacho was the one to pull me out of that tunnel.

[Tammy]

That line you're quoting is me commenting in how she is manipulating Nacho.

I'm trying to figure out why she plays the way she plays. If everyone keeps telling me that I should just believe what they're saying, why am I playing this game at all? If you would all just have backed off and let Tammy answer for herself, maybe I wouldn't need 15 pages and 10 players telling me she is town to figure out she is town.

Tell me this: do you think it's normal for her to not read Nacho as town, but still have a townread on RC because of "Nacho feeling okay about him"? Am I the only one seeing this?

I like working with people that I play with often/understand/think I work together well with. I mean you saw a couple people remark that I didn't reach out to them; it means it's something I do. I like having sounding boards. Early game I don't always use said sounding boards because I'm feeling out the game for myself and getting a sense of what's going on/what my view of the game state is and then I can start to negotiate that lay of the land elsewhere. I'm not a big fan of voting blocs, but I do believe that one of the best chances that town has to win games is for the town to somehow find each other and work together. Recognizing other people's strengths and your weaknesses is one of the means to gaining the trust that you need to work with your town reads. (I also think it's important to at least hear/listen to your scum reads because you might be wrong on those.)

I reached out to implosion because I haven't played with him in something like a year. I don't have a lot of experience with him, but I've enjoyed playing with him. In the last couple games we've played we town read each other pretty early, and in fact in both he was my first real town read. When empire told me the game was in signups, I thought to myself that I hoped that implosion would sign up.

I reached out to nacho, well because I often do. Nacho and I are rarely rarely town together and although we both can read each other based on other things we've been able to read each other best (or at least I have) based on how we interact with each other. That interaction has changed somewhat over the past few months, which has made getting or feeling confident in reads on each other a bit more difficult. That has been a failing on my part, and I'd rather not have silly paranoia on each other like we did in forest fire. Therefore, I'm going to try to be more open. Because if we're both town, I'd like us both the figure that out sooner rather than be paranoid about it.

So yeah, Nacho is one of the sounding boards I would want to work with in the game. I'd listen to his reads even if I thought he was scum here because even as scum how he presents his reads and why can say something about the other person. He's not the only sounding board or person I want to work with in this game, and although if I were scum I'd be attempting to manipulate Nacho, it would not be the way I went about it in my first post. I'm not even sure if I would have thought to make that post in that way as scum and I don't think even if I thought of it that I actually would.

Speaking of, I was hoping Nacho would post today.

[Tammy]

huh gnomes does have experience with me but since it was in bbhoh where I hydrad with Nacho and he was "lynched" night one, he probably doesn't remember.

[Tammy]

Oh I'll respind to anything else when I get back home.

[Tammy]

I am exhausted and getting up really early in the morning, so I probably won't get to this today, though I don't really think there was anything to me to respond to.

I mean people don't actually cry over syrup but I am also interested in cheetory and gnome's responses here.

Anyway, more likely I'll be back here tomorrow.

[Tammy]

huh gnomes does have experience with me but since it was in bbhoh where I hydrad with Nacho and he was "lynched" night one, he probably doesn't remember.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about that game too, then.

I'd have to reread through it to reorient myself. I didn't even remember it myself until Nacho said that gnome messaged him from his main after the game. That game was the first time Nacho and I hydrad, so it's almost two years old, and I was particularly busy at the start of the game.

That game also had a mechanic that made game play a little different so I'm not sure how well it translates. It was nightless and the "Head of Household" nominated two people for eviction and then during the night phase all the players except the head of household voted privately to remove one of the nominees. The scum team had a couple daykills. We selected gnomeo and desperado for eviction night one and gnome was evicted.

I'll probably take a look back at that game tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I have no idea why I'm still awake, but pie:

How do you think I'm interpreting his read? I feel like I've engsged him to understand where he's coming from/explained myself fairly well.

Also, you do realize that generic was playing as an alt who was claiming to be unfamiliar with me or the way I played when we had played several games together and knew very well how I played. And he was doing that to come across as unfamiliar, so I'm not sure of the point there unless you're calling gnomes a liar, which I'm gathering you're not.

[Tammy]

regardless of what you think about meta, if you say someone is scum for X and then someone tells you they do X as town all the time, you don't just entirely handwave dismiss it.

So your point is: regardless of what you think about meta, if someone gives you a meta argument, you have to agree to it? Sorry, but no.

No, you don't. But if you were trying to understand me, why not engage on that point instead of just ignore it?

Gnomes - you missed the how I was manipulating Nacho part. Also if you think I know him well enough that that would be manipulation, why do you think I wouldnt know him well enough to town read him early? (FTR as of that post I had no read on Nacho, not being a major concern doesn't mean town read. I did list my town reads though! It's funny you missed that he wasn't on that list and assumed.)

Why can't you be of concern even if that was a joke? Why do i have to know if you were serious in your scum read of me to be concerned about you?

He wasn't on your town reads no. However, how am I supposed to know those are all your town reads?
Allow me to quote:

Implosion and Layla both look town. As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry

So part of your townread is nacho feeling okay about him. But you don't have a read on Nacho. Why do you trust the feeling of a null read?

Why wouldn't I?

There was never an indication that I'm blindly following Nacho's reads but am using it to balance out my own reads. For instance, did you miss this?

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

I have a couple markers for his town game that wouldn't manifest themselves until later, if they do at all. Beyond that I have absolutely no clue how to read him. Last swag town we both suspected each other and I wrote the hugest, most hilariously wrong case on him, and it took Nacho replacing in and laughing at how wrong I was to wrench me out of my tunnel. We've had minimal experience since then.

Nacho didn't seem to have a problem with his entrance, so I really don't.

I do know he prefers scum and that is where he feels his strengths lie. I think he's a bit more image conscious as scum, so I'm not sure he'd start out the way he has a scum? That doesn't feel super strong and I was interested in how he comes back. I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

I find some of the reactions a bit weird. Not sciences make sense as it was directed toward him. Feeling weird about pixel guy doing the wagon analysis already and calling it low hanging fruit. Those are really the only ones that stuck out to me.

I just woke up and I think I'm going to go for a walk because damn it's beautiful outside. I'll get around to actually reading the thread in a bit.

Because in the midst of questioning my read on Red Coyote, it's weird that you missed what I expected and liked about red coyote.

Beyond that there are so many reasons why I could just accept a null reads feelings on another person. I know that Nacho feels like he can read red coyote well. Therefore there are many things that can tell you. At this moment, I don't think they're both scum. I have an early inkling that he's town, but I'm well aware of my failings at reading him. Nacho didn't show concern about his opening, so I'm not going to. Beyond that, I'm not really going to go into all the whys of why I'd take a null read into account on RC as I feel like anyone with much experience with mafia knows the benefits to watching how someone's reads develop.

I also know that a town!Nacho could be misreading a scum!Red Coyote early so even if I had a town read on Nacho, I'd still be looking at RC but using Nacho's read to balance out my own.

If I know that someone is good at reading someone else, I always take that into account. I also feel like you didn't really read this post because I talked about how we all played a game together in which I suspected RC horribly and Nacho was the one to pull me out of that tunnel.

[Tammy]

Also, you do realize that generic was playing as an alt who was claiming to be unfamiliar with me or the way I played when we had played several games together and knew very well how I played.

iirc he said he played on an alt specifically so he could read people/have people read him without relying on meta. so I'm assuming that he was under the impression he actually would have been reading your posts that way if he wasn't familiar with how you play.

I think most of what you're saying is a correct explanation of why his read on you is wrong. I just think in this case it happened bc he didn't think through the read all the way and is too stubborn to let up on it until he's absolutely sure he's on the wrong track (rather than him being scum forcing a read). what in particular did you want me to comment on?

Generic was being a jerk. As much as you can try to play without bias once it's there it's hard to dismiss. I don't think the correlation is accurate.

I was just confused as to why you're bringin up the point at all. I'm not calling him scum, I never have called him scum, he's still someone I'm concerned about and I'm interacting with him/explaining myself/will tomorrow clarify something that he keeps misinterpreting and there's more to this now than the original manipulation suspicion.

Anyway, I'm hopefully going to fall asleep now.

[Tammy]

Okay I have caught up.

I think I have an early town read on ffery, which while I've tended to town read her by mid day one, I don't tend to town read her this early but I guess I could be making up for being stupidly paranoid of her in forest fire? not science feels townish but I thought he had stopped with his town reading thing so I'm a little confused. Implosion and Layla both look town.

As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry. I kinda would expect nacho to town read him today anyway as I think he'd be more accurate in the coming days.

Gnomeo - Is that a serious vote on me? If it is, who do you think I'm manipulating? How and Why?

Okay this was planned to be a more insightful post but I'm headed out the door unexpectedly. So tomorrow.

Gnomes - read the entirety of the bolded.

Then read what I said prior:

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

I have a couple markers for his town game that wouldn't manifest themselves until later, if they do at all. Beyond that I have absolutely no clue how to read him. Last swag town we both suspected each other and I wrote the hugest, most hilariously wrong case on him, and it took Nacho replacing in and laughing at how wrong I was to wrench me out of my tunnel. We've had minimal experience since then.

Nacho didn't seem to have a problem with his entrance, so I really don't.

I do know he prefers scum and that is where he feels his strengths lie. I think he's a bit more image conscious as scum, so I'm not sure he'd start out the way he has a scum? That doesn't feel super strong and I was interested in how he comes back. I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

I find some of the reactions a bit weird. Not sciences make sense as it was directed toward him. Feeling weird about pixel guy doing the wagon analysis already and calling it low hanging fruit. Those are really the only ones that stuck out to me.

I just woke up and I think I'm going to go for a walk because damn it's beautiful outside. I'll get around to actually reading the thread in a bit.

Then if you still have a question about my stance on that read, go for it, but I think it's really clear.

[Tammy]

You're suggesting he can't be town read that fast. He'd made five posts by that point. What makes you think that I can't read Nacho quickly if you can?

Please actually answer this question.

When you assumed that I was town reading Nacho, you claimed that I couldn't have a read on Nacho so soon and it looked like buddying. But then you claimed that you usually have a town read on him after on,y a couple posts.

If you think he's so easy to read that you can town read him off a couple of posts, why do you think I cant?

(Please note: this question has nothing to do with my read on Nacho and your claims of whether or not he's readable. Because if you think he's easily readable after a couple posts then your claim that I'm buddying because I can't read him after a couple posts is really disingenuous.)

[Tammy]

I am super behind in life, but Empire is visiting so yay!

Anyway, I hope to catch up here before I go back to sleep though I've skimmed.

Cheetory - Where did I get your meta wrong?

[Tammy]

I should be able to catch back up here today. Been a busy week, and it will be a busy weekend, so I'm going to do the best I can to catch up here tonight, but just a warning, I have barely slept this week, when I get here I will probably be somewhat loopy.

Why am I just kinda town

Anyway, I have kinda skimmed some but i've seen people mention things about not having a good scum read and I wonder if there is something to my suspicion that this could be multi factional of some kind. :/

[Tammy]

Why is vinkah such a solid town read? And if your layla read took a hit because of lack of posting, how is vinkah such a solid town read that lack of posting can't affect it?

[Tammy]

Why is vinkah such a solid town read? And if your layla read took a hit because of lack of posting, how is vinkah such a solid town read that lack of posting can't affect it?

I realized that I don't really understand what you're asking here. Do you see Layla and Vinkah as comparable?

You earlier had Layla as a decent town read for a reason that was clearly out there. Your read on her dimished due to lack of posting.

Your read on Vinkah didn't have that. So far as I can tell you liked Vinkah for the same reason why I didn't in that you saw a forest fire in the posts I thought were odd regarding Red Coyote.

Your read on Layla diminished due to lack of posting, yet Vinkah is a strong town read even though he also has a lack of posting. That read weird.

[Tammy]

tammy, why am i not town? or are you just questioning the solididy (is that even a word?) of the read?

I don't really have a read on you.

But mostly I'm questioning the solidity of the read.

[Tammy]

I kinda want to lynch notscience

[Tammy]

Maybe! It's probably just as easy for you to iso ctrl+f anen and look at what i've said as it is for me to do.

[Tammy]

If Anen is scum, he must already feel like his scum team has lost and that's why he's so defeated/absent.

I wasn't meaning post count per se, but iirc vinkah has dipped in activity as much as Layla has, so I was wondering why one is so strong for you and the other, whom you seemed strong on, isn't?

[Tammy]

maybe im wrong tammy, but i don't see anything where you give anything truly alignment indicative about Anen?
where is he in your sort pile?

I have absolutely no idea what to do with Anen.

[Tammy]

Also, although fery didnt outline her reasonings behind why my posts last night didn't sit well I can see the thought process behind that.

She's pretty town.

I have a little voice in my head wondering if tammy is scum.

I want to ignore this post because I'm town and I know I'm town and I think I've been pretty transparent.

Then as I want to skip past it, I know I'm going to get crap for ignoring it because TOWN TAMMY WOULD NEVER DO THAT.

So, this is me, acknowledging that you're saying I might be scum and calling you silly for it.

[Tammy]

Anen - Why should i have a read on you?

[Tammy]

Cheetory - Me thinking you were strong early game of S&V is not using incorrect meta of you even if you think your game was weak. That's the first game I have experience with you in. My interpretation of your play there might differ from your own but that doesn't mean my meta of you is wrong especially since my explanation of my meta is the way you went about doing reads. IE looking at things in context and analyzing to see if they make sense.

Which is different than you saying, Tammy doesn't do POE things or she only really pushes or talks about a scum read after serious questioning.

I feel like I might be arguing the fine line of semantics there, but I don't think I am really.

[Tammy]

I mean, it's definitely not just you two. I felt that way, and my sentiments were mimicked by Vinkah as well in 447.

I think the last game I played with this kind of player list (that is, swagtown pt 1) I was easily engaged because I had a very solid scumread who I pushed consistently for pretty much the entirety of day one until they were lynched. This time, I think it all sort of goes back to Anen. I was engaged because I was pushing/interacting with Anen. Anen disappeared. My engagement whittled away.

In a sense it's almost less weird to be disengaged in this kind of crowd. It's so easy to just get lost in a sea of people who are good enough to towntell actively as either alignment towntelling as both alignments. I remember (just because it's so strongly in my head) the last day of swagtown, when we were trying to track down the last scum (who wound up being fonz), it was really difficult to stay focused because every lead kept going to shit.

Heh, I still remember that last day fondly. Nacho and I went round and round about you and fonz and as the wagons were between you two and I was like I can't lynch implosion he was my first town read but *waffle*, Nacho basically gave a hail mary hammer to the fonz to save me from the next several hours of miserable panicked waffling because I couldn't bare to lynch you but didn't know what to do.

[Tammy]

if you saying that you like vinkah's posts like a forest fire is an indication that you think you know who he is then I'm surprised you're town reading him so easily.

[Tammy]

Oh I think I missed something but I still have as varying degrees of town: Implosion, ffery, oh I can wicked on there too and RC, with a maybe on nacho and pie

I still don't have great scum reads.

[Tammy]

OH also I'm probably going to be in random catchup mode until the end of the weekend.

I'm considering moving my vote to not science I just really don't want to

[Tammy]

if you saying that you like vinkah's posts like a forest fire is an indication that you think you know who he is then I'm surprised you're town reading him so easily.

that's not what I was saying. I felt like Vinkah was making an observation about this game that I think most of the town players made in the forest fire game, particularly about Quil and Yuriko. It's not as tight a meta circle in this game but there is definitely a group of players who will probably be able to meta-read each other here if they are all town, and there's a group of players who could easily be PoE'd without a lot of effort at actually sorting them (which was what happened in Forest Fire IMO). Whether RC is actually a player who could get PoE'd that way is debatable, but directionally it's a reasonable thing to anticipate.


And this point doesn't have much if anything to do with whether I know who Vinkah is.

Oh okay, then never mind. I've been trying to fit him into a forest fire player's alt and coming up short. The only one I could think of that it would be was soft spoken and I was going twitchomatic on why you had soft spoken so high on your town list after the discussion of what he was capable of as scum.

[Tammy]

I'm thinking (again) about voting Gnomeo, but it's not really based on anythng solid. Tammy I wish you and Nacho had more to say about that game you played with him. It was really the only one of his scum games that looks at all like this one.

I reread through that game a few days ago and he only had a few posts. It really is a difficult game to draw off of because of how the mechanic worked.

Here he's focused so much on me that it hasn't felt too much the same, but I also worry his sole focus on me is a way for him to keep busy. So I've been hoping that he'd engage with the rest of the game and that would help me out.

[Tammy]

Here is Anen's iso in Team Mafia White Flag. He replaced in some time day two as I remember I was still there. There wasn't a whole lot of suspicion on his slot, but there was a fair amount.

=24164&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]White Flag

In any case he definitely didn't wilt under the pressure of being scum read replacing into a scum slot. This is the only experience that I've had with him though. Don't know how much it translates.

[Tammy]

I've still kinda only skimmed and there's almost no way I get to this before tomorrow night, maybe even Monday.

I'm not sure who to push. I just kinda feel like everyone posting looks mostly townish and I don't know about anyone else. I also feel really unhelpful as well. I hope to get it together soon.

[Tammy]

Vinkah I'm not asking you to out your main but have we played together several times?

I feel like I have a guess from your last couple of posts but it also feels weird for my guess to be ffery's guess.

[Tammy]

I'm at a bar watching people play beer pong, so you might get weird random posts from me for a minute.

[Tammy]

You have got to be kidding me.

Also, I'm not sure what that I'll does to the great reads I didn't have. I need to really sit down with this game though.

[Tammy]

Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed. That fits into my worldview better and maybe keeps me from looking at the game squinty eyed where I'm likely to jump at every shadow like a tweaked out meth addict.

Sk pretending to be vig works too.

Okay, I'm going to go back to sleep.

[Tammy]

I'm bummed that cheetory replaced out. I was waiting for we the purple to end to talk to him about some of his suspicions or points against me in relation to that game and his expectations, and it's over now :/

[Tammy]

Tammy, how strong is your town read on implosion?

notscience, what are your thoughts right now? (Are you caught up?)

Unfortunately none of my reads are super strong. I was so busy and so behind most of day one that I don't feel like I had any real handle on my reads. I'm probably going to pass out soon, but tomorrow I'll have some time to sit down with this game and reassess what little reads I did have.

[Tammy]

Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed.

Yeah I

seriously

doubt that's a mafia kill

Also I agree sans evidence of two kills in the game that the gnomeo kill doesn't look like a target by mafia.

He had no votes at the end of the day. ffrey put forth a pretty solid defense of him yesterday. I mean, this seems like a odd jump to make right off the bat. Granted, I have no problem with Gnomeo being a potential vig shot... but he's just as valid a mafia shot as any. I mean, I can think of a few better ones, but it wasn't horrible. Perhaps he was on the right track scumhunting wise? I would not automatically assume that he wasn't a mafia shot. I would need to see something more substantial (e.g. multiple kills/role cop/no kill/etc).

See, I don't see it this way. When I was thinking about the game state over night and who we'd likely be without, Gnomeo was one person I was convinced would be alive. He might have had no votes on him, but he wasn't even close to being universally town read. Now Pie might have made a town case on him, but the entire game wasn't going to just take that town case without reading him themselves and there were some meta inquiries near the end of day one. I was beginning to suspect him based on his single-minded questioning of my entrance and not much else/miscontruing or misinterpreting things I said. I thought it was looking like easy contribution for him to ignore the rest of the game, so he was definitely someone I was going to look into more coming into today. From what I remember I was his sole scum target for day one and even though he started thinking I was town, I don't think he ever moved his vote off of me, so he can't have been killed for being on the right track, and I can't imagine a scum team in this player list making a kill to frame me knowing I'm innocent.

Perhaps it was a low information kill or a kill meant to ignite paranoia amongst the stronger town read group, but see those types of things are what it going to send me into squinty-eyed paranoia on people. So, I'd like to think vig shot.

Why would a role cop be amongst the roles that you listed?

[Tammy]

oh okay that makes sense.

also bus driver might be the type of inventive role that empire would put in the game to act as a doctor too, hrm.*

*interesting which would mean vanilla still.

[Tammy]

Hm you're right, no bus driver.

[Tammy]

I'm getting ready to leave for Florida. My time will be rather limited until my nieces leave on Tuesday, I think.

Anyway, I really did want to talk to Cheetory because my play here wasn't really all that different from We the Purple, in that I didn't directly interact with people all the time. In fact, the only real interaction i had with people was when they addressed me or questioned me or I was telling them to stop spam posting and fighting over stupid shit. But my reads were all given in the same manner as here and in fact my scum read on his slot was also me just saying that I thought they were scum by gut and for their behavior without actually interacting with them to figure it out. I had already flipped town by the time this game started, so he had seen town me act in a different way that Signs and Void, so that struck me as weird. I mean obviously he couldn't use that game as meta while it was ongoing, but he certainly shouldn't have been making some of the arguments he had.

So, IDK what to think there. But basically my statements to him about being disingenuous and that I didn't think he believed some of the things he was saying were due to We the Purple.

Anyway, I don't expect to disappear until Wednesday, but I'll be limited. Also I'll actually be somewhat limited for the next couple weeks as I'm visiting family. Basically I'll be in spurts probably.

[Tammy]

Tammy are you town ?

Yup.

I realize I'm not over active, but the signs are there if you know what to look for.

You were in We The Purple, what did you think about my point about the oddness of cheetory's accusations taking that game into account?

[Tammy]

VOTE: Wicked

You're already voting Wicked.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Wicked

You're already voting Wicked.

im p sure he knows XD

Then why would he vote him again?

whooooops

[Tammy]

Notty - How come you asked me if I was town and when I asked you what you thought about my point about cheetory and we the purple, you didn't respond at all?

[Tammy]

(and i don't count the boon wagon partially because it's only two votes and partially because i don't like it, but etc.)

What don't you like about the Boon wagon?

[Tammy]

ffery - how much of your alt-guess of vinkah playing into your town read there?

[Tammy]

The thing that bothers me about the Soft Spoken Anen vote isn't that he should have looked at the first page, it's that those kinds of things always make me feel twitchy as fake dumb tells. Things like that just always give me the sense that the person is trying to create an illusion of "look at me I'm so easy-going about this that I didn't even look at the first page and I have no prior information!"

[Tammy]

@RC I looked at your vinkah post when it was posted, just went back and looked at it again, and I don't think I see the post you quoted as being as disingenuous as you do. I also do personally just tend to focus more on posts that give me townvibes than posts that give me scumvibes (granted that's mostly because the former is much much more common but I digress).

SS has yet to towntell.

do you have enough experience with SS to know when he town tells?

[Tammy]

ffery - how much of your alt-guess of vinkah playing into your town read there?

My guess has firmed up to an assumption. I'll be extremely surprised if I'm wrong.

My guess being correct kinda explains the paranoia he has about my play this game. It's a fairly small slice of games we've shared (including what I'm aware he followed but didn't play). I weigh if the paranoia feels overdone once in a while. So far it feels ok.

Okay that makes me feel better about your guess then. I'm pretty sure I'm correct on my guess and I didn't think the two of you had played much. (Though that's an assumption on my part based on how much I think I've seen his main around for a bit.)

[Tammy]

I need to do some iso's to orient myself in the game.

I need to do some grading first though.

I thought that Boon's wicked vote and revote could be distancing because in the boon selfmeta I've read he's always insisted that he votes his teammates, but I just don't see it when I read through wicked. However, I'd really love it if Boon was scum just because it would be nice if cheetory's weird push on me was scum motivated.

anyway, something bugged me about implosion saying that ss hadn't town told yet and I'm not sure why.

[Tammy]

Notty - How come you asked me if I was town and when I asked you what you thought about my point about cheetory and we the purple, you didn't respond at all?

NOTSCIENCE

[Tammy]

tammy was rather waffly. hmmmm

>_>

What does that tell you?

[Tammy]

ffer is probably town because she didnt try to warn her partners

About what?

[Tammy]

implo/tammy/red

Lol

[Tammy]

That doesn't make any sense.

We've only played one game together. Forest Fire. And in that game you had us as pretty strong town.

IF you've actually played/seen me in games and are trying to determine anything you wouldn't mention "waffling" with regards to me as if it's alignment indicative. By saying that, throwing me in a poe pile, then claiming to have played/seen me in games, and I'm sorry to report to you that no I'm not hard to read at all in fact it's kinda my thing that I'm easy as fuck to read, this just looks like a load of hoo hee.

[Tammy]

ffer is probably town because she didnt try to warn her partners

About what?

you did not answer this.

[Tammy]

Feel free to substantiate that claim though. What games have you read in which I've been hard to read. What am I waffling about that makes me suspicious? Don't throw out stuff that makes it look like you're reading in an attempt to fake town tell and hit something. Play man.

[Tammy]

nice cop out man. answer the questions that actually pertain to this game.

[Tammy]

also don't refer to meta on me if you can't keep me straight!

[Tammy]

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK buddy

you don't get to make a statement like oh Tammy's waffling, then claim to have meta'd me and know what my game is like when it's obviously clear that you have no clue and are just making stuff up.

[Tammy]

The thing that bothers me about the Soft Spoken Anen vote isn't that he should have looked at the first page, it's that those kinds of things always make me feel twitchy as fake dumb tells. Things like that just always give me the sense that the person is trying to create an illusion of "look at me I'm so easy-going about this that I didn't even look at the first page and I have no prior information!"

here. you rolling out the "he plays into my general paranoia about these types of things" just looked like an incredibly noncomittal way to leave yourself open to voting me

Oh I am completely open to voting you unless you do something that looks like town.

[Tammy]

tammy. i never claimed to know your game. in fact i specifically stated that i cant read you after seeing several games

which games???

[Tammy]

The thing that bothers me about the Soft Spoken Anen vote isn't that he should have looked at the first page, it's that those kinds of things always make me feel twitchy as fake dumb tells. Things like that just always give me the sense that the person is trying to create an illusion of "look at me I'm so easy-going about this that I didn't even look at the first page and I have no prior information!"

here. you rolling out the "he plays into my general paranoia about these types of things" just looked like an incredibly noncomittal way to leave yourself open to voting me

tammy. i never claimed to know your game. in fact i specifically stated that i cant read you after seeing several games

Here's the thing. I don't care if you actually think I'm hard to read even though I'm like the easiest person to read on this site.

What I do care about is that you are claiming to have meta'd me, which means that you are claiming to have some association with my game, and whether or not you think I was the town head in Forest Fire or not, there is not a world in which it makes sense that you call out the absolute one defining aspect of my play, i.e. waffling, as if it's scummy and that I'm leaving my door open. I think all of that reeks of bullshit.

It would make sense if you didn't meta me and had no clue. Then I could see you going oh wait she waffled, but it looks like you discrediting an avenue of suspicion that I've already placed on you that actually makes a ton of sense.

[Tammy]

ffer is probably town because she didnt try to warn her partners

About what?

you did not answer this.

i always open games in a superficially scummy manner to try and attract a bad wagon. in fact, in our last game ffer was suspicious of me because i didnt.

so you don't think there's day talk? or there is?

[Tammy]

And what it would make more sense for you to be concerned about waffling would be me not being certain about implosion, since he's your scum read and your voting him, and that i've expressed uncertain doubt.

Shouldn't that be what you're concerned about, if I'm partnered with implosion and all?

[Tammy]

well if you think that then there is no way i can convince you otherwise so im done with this conversation.

P edit: i assumed no day talk...

Then how pray tell would she warn them???

[Tammy]

you were obviously talking out of your ass.

[Tammy]

Unfortunately I don't know if you're scum.

Unfortunately you have that pompous ass play style in which you decide to act scummy as fuck to trap people who think your scummy ass behavior is scummy like oh i acted like scum to trap people who will think i'm scum. it makes things unpleasant and frustrating as fuck.

You never answered what games you meta'd me in. If you are confusing me for another player, you probably shouldn't be trusting your meta anyway and considering you couldn't even remember from your grand meta adventure that indecisiviness or waffling is pretty standard me you probably shouldn't meta. But gods I wish I could remember the last game that someone claimed to do a big meta read on me and it didn't make sense with what they were saying. oh right it was mafia on the air, that guy was scum. You can't even clearly talk about that which makes it completely impossible to read you.

[Tammy]

and unfortunately town talk out of their ass and throw shit at the wall just to see which is what I'm trying to figure out if you're doing.

[Tammy]

You were the one who brought up meta not me. You were the one who made a remark on my play style, which I asked what you told me, then you said inconclusive based on games read/seen, but can't even tell me what games you're referring to. You didn't clarify that it didn't tell you anything. In fact, if you had said, Tammy is waffly but that doesn't tell me anything, this conversation would have never happened. But, you acted like it did tell you something, then said I was hard to read, then said that you mistook me for Malakittens, which all just struck me as you spewing bs because it doesn't make any sense to me.

And what I think is unpleasant, is the whole OH I act scummy as a trap because that shit traps town more than it traps scum who don't know anything. I"m so sick of people acting scummy on purpose for whatever those stupid gambits are when you can just act like a normal person and not try to confuse the issue.

[Tammy]

*I might be taking out some of my frustration about that on you. I'm tired, sorry, but the I'm a troll, act scummy, lurk, don't do shit, play style to trap scum thing is wearing on me.

[Tammy]

Implosion is probably scum and I don't want to see it which is

[Tammy]

@tammy- I honestly didn't read a ton of their posts in that game, so I don'tt really have anything to say.

It was more about his meta argument about me in this game which I didn't think made sense with the We the Purple game that was going on. He was using Signs and Void as a meta read on me and saying that things about me didn't make sense when I'd already flipped in We the Purple and my approach on some things was not very different.

[Tammy]

My moms birthday is today so I doubt I'll do anything. I have no clue who I want to vote for. Maybe boonskies? I need someone to hold my hand :/

[Tammy]

I quickly sort of caught up while on hold to change my flight home. I'm still with my family and a bit distracted due to my cat having to spend the weekend at the emergency vet

My v/la will be ending earlier than originally planned though.

Probably fine voting boon, as like I can't make anything out of his play and I still have issues with cheetory. Not science didn't answer but I saw pie reference the we the purple interaction. Pie what do you make of cheetory's meta expectations for me when we the purple is also in play?

Not sure about anything else. Not sure about anything at all and I don't really have the time or mental energy to figure it out. Probably won't before Monday.

Anyway still in the market for hand holding!

[Tammy]

I like soft spoke more for town after the past few pages. Post 1231 especially I like.

Not feeling great about not science, he feels really posturey in his interaction with ss. Especially didn't like the don't walk through my line of questioning thing. Especially since it was specifically concerning him. It didn't feel like him trying to keep people from interacting and nacho could still easily answer the question. It felt more like an appeal for ffery's sake since that is a specific pet peeve of hers.

Kinda concerned that wicked' push back on boon is a product of a partner wanting to shut down a bad bus, but that could also just be him indignant at an incorrect and bad push regardless so I'm hrm.

I had a potential theory for scum team make up if gnomes actually was the mafia kill but I need to check the timeline for that. Probably a silly thing to hunt down without certainty, but.

[Tammy]

I don't want to vote Nacho... :/ Tammy and Vinkah are much better lynches than Nacho.

VOTE: Vinkah

Someone join me for real this time.

You wound me. I'm a terrible lynch.

~~~

Super tired airport catchup enacted.

I'm not interested in lynching implosion. I'd rather use the next couple days to use Implosion's other shot whether it be SK or Vig shot as a second lynch. Or just for Implosion to shoot his top scum read.

In some sense it makes sense if Implosion is an SK because that would explain why it's so damn difficult to get a scum read here, but I also don't have a problem with Implosion's explanations for his shot.

Pie - Did you stop believing that you can leash SKs?

I thought I had another question or something to respond to.

I might be interested in voting Vinkah, but I'm hesitating there on the strength of ferry's town read. Maybe not science or boon which yeah I'm not sure why that looked so town?

Oh yeah, I remember. Boon - Your read on me in which you addressed me by a nickname and all caps has a feel of familiarity with me though we've never played a game together I don't think. Feels weird.

[Tammy]

heh I felt just a little better about it upon re-reading it. I might have been looking for good in it.

There's a little tiny thing I have with Vinkah and it's how much he's kinda overexplained his absences today. This is kinda player dependent but it also feels a bit weird.

[Tammy]

What is your read on Nacho from his most recent catchup?

The one thing that has me a little worried is his tone, but that could also be his grumpiness over being sick seeping through.

[Tammy]

I'm just feeling really off with Tammy. She's tending to ask offputting questions instead of scum hunting, setting herself up to have multiple lynch possibilities, and is kind of IIoA heavy in a more general open kind of way.

I feel like this is pretty objectively false, but I'd love for you to substantiate this.

Oh pie - I think if implosion is an sk, then we're probably not going to have a three-man scum team, so Lyle wouldn't be here so soon. I don't think that empire would design a game that would put us into lylo so quickly.

I was going to come back here last night when I got home but I passed out early. I have to run out soon, but I'll be back in a few hours.

[Tammy]

What is your read on Nacho from his most recent catchup?

The one thing that has me a little worried is his tone, but that could also be his grumpiness over being sick seeping through.

his tone has been bothering me all game. I think it's life, though, and the bother has been less over time.

If this game has day chat then my concerns about nacho would rise based on his trajectory re boonskiies. In ny 169 we had masons who were able to confirm day chat was probably a thing, though I don't remember day chat assumptions pointing up potential scum there.

The point about the leadership vacuum in this game is a valid one. scum nacho would probably have filled it, at least at the tactical moments.

Now that zodiac is over, I can respond to this. I do agree that some of the tonal issues could be busyness with life and not exactly alignment related. He had a similar tone and feel in zodiac where he was town, so the somewhat muted tone didn't bother me so much early game and I figured I'd have to read him in another way this game.

I meant to check swag town to see if they had day talk there. I want to say they did? Nope, they didn't.

I mean I guess the game would make sense if red coyote was scum and maybe that's why he talked about the gnomes kill making sense as a mafia kill? Maybe to look uninformed? IDK

[Tammy]

also, dont hammer. nacho needs to come back with an update, explain why he left his vote hanging... who he would rather vote....

and possibly strongarm an alternative lynch?

This.

I'll hammer before deadline but I want Nacho and Tammy and hopefully Vinkah to put more into the thread before the day ends.

I'm not sure I'll be great help putting much more in the thread before day ends. I feel like this game is going to come to what makes the most sense to me, which is usually the case when I'm town reading or trying to town read everyone. That kind of clarity often doesn't come for me until day three or day four when I'm in this sort of haze. Hopefully it will be day three.

What do you think of boonskies reasons for scum reading me?

[Tammy]

No, I don't think we've ever played together before which is why the way he addressed me in his reads list felt weird.

[Tammy]

I have seen him play.

He was in the normal game in team mafia where I correctly identified him as town. I also thought the scum team were buddying him in an attempt to get him to give them the game in lylo, since the entire scum team ignored him or hard town read him. I did briefly see his play in joss whedon as I had wanted to replace in at several parts, and I read another game of his somewhere at some point.

His play is chaotic and he sometimes has odd reasons for scum reading people. In one game I read, which I think was also present in team mafia was that he scum read people for having town reads too early. That kind of reasoning is silly to me and in both the games I saw hi do it he was hard scum reading town for it.

But even though it's silly, it's something tangible I can see. Here it just feels like he's spitballing but pretending not to.

[Tammy]

But I also don't know if I'm holding onto suspicion from cheetory as I can't get that resolved.

[Tammy]

I"m not sure what to make of Red's not vt claim.

On the one hand, I kinda like it because as scum he could claim a role in an attempt to get counterclaimed and this leaves it ambiguous. But then that would be obvious too. He might also not be certain what Empire would use. When Mara claimed cop on day one of last swag town, we were able, well implosion I think, was able to prove through trends that the cop claim was extremely unlikely.

However, I don't get why he wouldn't just claim. I doubt very seriously that he has the type of role that becomes less useful if outed, so it's not that. He could just be leaving it to some mystery so that the scum team has a decision to make on whether or not to kill him for the role or someone a bit more dangerous and widely town read.

So yeah, IDK.

Notscience - Why would you expect me to be a big factor if you didn't have me as someone you would expect to take on a leadership role in this game? And how is this any different than We the Purple?

other than that i liked the self meta cuz i'm a sucker for self meta.

[Tammy]

I feel sure of very few things this game.

I think that SS, ffery and wicked are all pretty decently town.

Everyone else exists in this split pea soup where you guys keep doing things that look like they could be townish and while I like peas, I wouldn't bet that I would like mushy pea soup.

I don't want to lynch implosion because there is a chance he's the vig and even if he is the sk, he wants mafia gone just as badly as we do, and maybe there's a chance we'll figure out if he is town after all. Though him being sk would make so much sense for why I'm having such a difficult time this game. Like I have no scum reads. The closest I have is boonkies and that's in part due to cheetory, and I really don't think boon skies chaoticness looked as town as the last couple games I've seen him in. I also, on a somewhat self-centered note, hate his reasoning for the scum read on me because it feels false. Well I mean, I know I'm town, and I don't feel like I've done any of the things he's accused me of. But not one person call him out or tried to get him to elaborate or pointed out that it was wrong, so maybe I'm just crappier at this than I think I am.

[Tammy]

When I clear my mind and go ohm, the two people I feel I'd want to lynch are Vinkah and Pieguyn but I don't feel confident there either so IDK.

I would prefer an actual full claim from Red Coyote though.

[Tammy]

I slept in today, so I'll probably be up for several more hours even though I'm really tired.

I'm glad that wicked didn't vote notscience though because I wouldn't want to be put in the position of hammering one of them.

I'm hoping that rc will come back and actually full claim so I'll wait on that.

With everyone gone I'm not sure what else there is though.

[Tammy]

Scumreads: notscience, vinkah, maybe Nacho/implosion/Boon?
Townreads: pie, ffrey, Wicked, SS

Tammy could go both ways... which probably means she's scum. She's so unemotional this game that it's giving me the creeps a bit. She should be causing drama or someone should be trying to cause drama with her.

I don't feel unemotional. I just feel lost, though cephrir spent most of pathfinder getting after me for being unemotional until I got it together and figure fit out day three.

I feel like I'm having to explain my meta nonstop lately to people who aren't seeing the shift but you modded zodiac and I don't think I was emotional there, but yeah elusive got after me for a bad meta read.

I was musing to empire when he was here that the people who should know how to read me but have floating paranoia is kinda funny because i think there are several tells that if you did have an accurate way of reading me it would be unmistakable that I'm town, but maybe some of those are just subtle. I mean the only one I'm going to point to right now is that my first post never ever comes from scum me unless I'm paired with nacho, but I hate that there's a drama tell with me. I think that trying to cause drama with me is a terrible tell and looking at how I'm reading the game and the things I'm reacting to are so much more reliable because I'm very good now at faking the drama thing in a way I didn't use to be a few years ago.

[Tammy]

i might be wiling to lycnh red coyote over several times acting as if he didn't know what was normal standard.

but that would take me looking into if he played normal games normally (heh).

[Tammy]

That does'nt answer where your concerns are with regards to we the purple.

Like you don't answer the questions asked but just not feeling a push on me. If you were really concerned bout me, shouldn't you be okay with a push on me?

Okay that feels hypocritical, but it's where I am.

[Tammy]

Though I feel like one of Red Coyote or Implosion are telling the truth, and I'm not sure which one.

[Tammy]

Actually if I think back there's a maybe indication of Red Coyote telling the truth. IDK.

[Tammy]

i feel like you started it with me, but I'm sure everyone else will disagree so yay!

[Tammy]

i feel like you started it with me, but I'm sure everyone else will disagree so yay!

it always feels that way dear. who would start flaming if they didnt feel like they are being undermined/attacked

thats why i stopped

that's fine then why did you try to bring it back up and lay it on me when I have you in my town reads?

Because that plus that feels disingenuous.

[Tammy]

Okay remember what I said about empire creating an interesting setup.

What we've got so far, plus what's expected:

vig (2-shot), miller, some type of investigative, some type of protective.

In his last mini he had a tracker/bodyguard/neighborizer vs. three goons but in his large he had masons/jailkeeper vs. day talk.

I think that by looking at the last normal game empire ran that both implosion and red coyote might be telling the truth.

Please hold.

[Tammy]

Okay, well, I'm not going to stress over this game anymore tonight. I'm unplugging. You have my reads, you have my claim and you have my reasons. implosion gets it. If I'm gone tomorrow, it's one less game I have to worry about.

Tammy seemingly only comes around when someone brings up her name (usually in the context of, "starting to suspect Tammy now...")

I don't sympathize with her crying about having to defend her meta constantly because everyone has to defend themselves every game. She has no presence in this game. Granted, she has been busy, but when you get busy people are going to ask about you. V/LA or not, that's just how it is. We've all been around the block enough to know that.

SS, yeah, man, ditto. I'm not saying that as a slam or anything. It is what it is. You should see me and zMuffin or GreyIce... forget about it. I think Grey would rather eat a cactus than play with me, lol.

The bolded is so objectively false.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd get after me for something I'm actually doing in this game and not what that crap ass thing is accusing me of. Considering that i think the last meta thing I've explained is the only thing I have this is really really false.

Say I'm acting fake because I don't know what's going on or something more tangible but please don't lie.l

[Tammy]

I'm saying I personally dont feel like pushing you nor would I stop one

Afaik I dont think I mentioned concerns about you re wtp, you mentioned cheeto there and I said I didn't really read his posts bu

I'm asking you what are your concerns about me in light of we the purple, the most recent game we've played together, which meta wise should be something you're considering thought you're not.

[Tammy]

Because he's trying to claim that I flamed him as a means of undermining (scum reading) him but I ended up thinking he was town so that point of view is objectively false and it feels like he's harkening back to something that I felt like he started as a means of actually undermining me to make me seems scummy and it feels just wrong.

And I partially just want to claim because I think that all the potentially town power roles are out there and it might just help and noone has picked up on anything that it feels really defeating here.

[Tammy]

I'm the role cop.

If you just look at everything setup spec alignment anything I've posted it should be obvious. I told empire when we were out to dinner that I was surprised that anyone who had any thoughts on how to read me could possible suspect me after me dropping all of my town/pr tells were insane.

I suspected gnome and I thought he might be run up day two so I investigated him and he came back vanilla. Look at my reaction at the start of day. Hell look at my setup spec at the beginning of day one. I was trying to figure out why I was a role cop and thought it might be because we were in multi ball.

I just think that that and everything should be so obvious.

[Tammy]

I'm not a drama starter I'm not even close to being a drama starter, I've just been trying to figure out this game with what I have, but apparently noone can read that.

But now you can setup spec. Why would the investigative role in this game be a role cop???

You tell me.

[Tammy]

just lynch me who cares.

[Tammy]

I just said you were acting fake (unemotional, a.k.a. robotic) and you immediately responded "oh, everyone is complaining about my meta!! poor me! you should've seen me in another game and saw I'm different now!!" So now I say you're acting opportunistic and you go, "this is so objectively false if you have to come at me for something, come at me for being fake!!"

Keep scummin' it up, Tams.

Okay, really, really last post.

lets flashlynch tammy lol

OMIFUCKING GOD'

HOURS TO DEADLINE AND I['M BEING PROPOSED AS A LAST MINUTE FLASHWAGON EVEN THOUGH I'M FUCKIKNG TOWNIER THAN FUCKING FUCK WITH THIS TYPE OF PR AND YOU WONDER WHY?

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU.

[Tammy]

The thing that bothers me about notscience is that he knows, he knows, me postulating/trying to figure out the setup is more likely to come from me town as he's seen me correctly identify things about the setup twice now that were not publicized, but here he's pretended like it hasn't existed, which is bothersome. In We the Purple the entire reason why he decide do town read our slot was because I correctly identified something about the roles that I couldn't have known, but here he's not even taking anything into account. He also knew in that game that my meta as far as being over active is false is false now awadays. As does red coyote since I recently played in his zodiac game and got a ton of incorrect meta shit thrown at me.

Like i thought I was playing this pretty okay. I thought I looked really town but not too threatening, but okay I'm not sure I would have been threatening because I really don't have a scum read, but still. Implosion claimed vig and I figured sure he might be as long as I remain relatively quiet I can investigate him and know for sure tomorrow, then Red claimed miller which made my decision a little more difficult but hey it's the night phase I'll figure it out.

OH but hey let's flash wagon tammy out of nowhere and you're going to be surprised when I'm not going to let that happen. I mean seriously people. If you're going to proclaim yourselves meta people, at least fucking try. I seriously could not be more fucking town here if I wanted to.

[Tammy]

I just said you were acting fake (unemotional, a.k.a. robotic) and you immediately responded "oh, everyone is complaining about my meta!! poor me! you should've seen me in another game and saw I'm different now!!" So now I say you're acting opportunistic and you go, "this is so objectively false if you have to come at me for something, come at me for being fake!!"

Keep scummin' it up, Tams.

Okay, really, really last post.

can i vote red now, cause this post feels fake?

[Tammy]

I'm not? I'm pretty sure this is the first time you've actually setup spec'd

So idk what you want me to say.

If this was earlier we wouldn't have this issue

So.

wait did you actually say this is the first time I've setup specced?

[Tammy]

Do you really want me to find where you proclaimed that me correctly setup spccing in we the purple was town indicative because is was like how I set up specced in fake god's winter['s night tale or do you just want to admit right now that me setup spccing in the way that I have is more likely to come from tow me.

your choice.

[Tammy]

I'm actually pissed right now

[Tammy]

Subject: The colored aferlife

Cait's spec about getting a BP the night you are hydrated is correct, btw.

It's alos why I'm townreading her, it's reminiscent of that fakegod game where she correctly spec'd the flavor plan

Cait is me by the way.

What aren't you denying?

[Tammy]

that should have come from you before.

I kjinda want to lynch red coyote just for his basically making fun of me for my surprise at being scum red, but i've had some wine now and need to think.

I just think if you're going to agree to splash wagon me you shouldn't be surprised what you get in return ESPECIALLY SINCE EVERY SINGLE THING YOU'D WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ME HAS BEEN THERE SINCE MY FIRST FUCKING POST.

[Tammy]

I think i"m going to vote red coyote because I think his taunting me to get a wagon on me is more disingenuous than anything else.

I also hate soft spoken's taunting but whatever that's apparently an EM tactic so yay you.

[Tammy]

also boonskie's reasoning for scum reading gem is not fucking gut cuz he gave dumb ass reasons for doing it bugt apparently everyone is just going to let him go because he's boon skies and chaotic so let's ignore him even if it;s the detriment of the game for town.

Like really if I just passed all the people in my classes that didn't actually read anything I told them to and gave me bullshit answers I'd be preparing the dumbest ass workforce and that's what you people are advocating here.

SHHHHHHHHHHHH just ignore boon skies he doesn't make sense but we don't want to make waves, we'd rather cuddle with him and left town lose so yeeeeeeeeeah.

[Tammy]

I have no idea what ss is referring to right now.

[Tammy]

I just don't know what to think, and I feel bad for claiming when I think I'd done pretty good at begin benign but town but you guys were just willing to flash wagon me without seeing if it made sense after really meeting wicked, why? Red wanted to make fun of me for meta cases after watching in zodiac how elusive made the worst meta case against me ever, and notscience shouldn't have made the concerns he did after we the purple and certainly shouldn't have discounted the fact that I'd been trying to make sense of these setup since the game started.

I just, you people confuse me. You meted' the hell out of wicked down to his tone in his questions he asked with or without purpose and i'm just led with split pea soup and you're wondering why I'm lost and why I'm just not sure. I DONT KNOW WHO'S SCUM BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL SPLIT PEA SOUP. YOU CAN ALL DIE FOR BEING YUCKY AND NOT REAL SOUP.

[Tammy]

if one of vinkah or notscience is scum i'm going to haunt you all for the rest of your days. jsyk.

or pieguyn hear too.

[Tammy]

then help me figure out who is please.

[Tammy]

the thing is I've wanted to read not science's early self meta as town early on but don't know what to do about it.

(I was taught about poker a long time ago.)

[Tammy]

and me wanting to read him as town from his self meta has left me feeling out in the cold regarding his read towards me and I haven't known what to do about it.

Well in part I haven't exactly wanted to correct ever tying because I was trying to be all cool mary sue about people suspecting me so I'd live a while and maybe be able to bust people's claims at mass claim time, which I'm almost never a part of since I die pretty regularly before then, but i thought I'd be able to be cool about before people suggested flash wagoning me.

[Tammy]

notscience - i was recognizing your self meta, how come you weren't recognizing my setup spec? Because that's where you got over paranoia on me in we the purple beyond the superficial "Tammy's not posting a lot" and I felt like you were one of the ones more likely to recognize that as a more than likely town me.

[Tammy]

VOTE: vinkah

[Tammy]

I'm just wondering the only other claim is some type of protective.

But then I'm wondering, miller, role cop, vig, doc? Oh but yeah I guess that make sense.

[Tammy]

this is the kind of game that just makes me want to go cry in a corner.

[Tammy]

wait what

[Tammy]

VOTE: boonskies

[Tammy]

wait what

In regard to what?

I'm not sure. Im running too many thoughts right now.

[Tammy]

VOTE: vinkah

I'm fine voting my confirm biasing from day one self if that will happen.

[Tammy]

I'm pretty sure both are asleep.

So.

nacho is not asleep he's just at work.

[Tammy]

I mean I guess I could lynch Red but it'd be more awesome if he came around and yeah his role makes more sense with me but yeah IDK.

[Tammy]

Waffles is eating right now guys!!!

[Tammy]

Not really, he's tentatively taken a bite of everything I've fed him since coming home, but this is the first real time he's actually really eaten since I've been home.

pedit: It's a cat!

[Tammy]

sleepykrew named him because I "waffled" for over a month on what to name him. He has a longer name but it's shortened to Sir Waffles, which is part a play on my personality and play style in which I waffle or am indecisive on a lot of things. Sleepy recently said that he understood moreso people's jokes about me waffling after I waffled on whether or not it was actually raining when outside, but that's not waffling - I'm just a crazy person.

[Tammy]

now im LOLing about me calling you waffly earlier

it's why I was trying to figure out if you'd actually meta'd me when you called me out for it. It's probably one of the more distinctive aspects of my play.

[Tammy]

ennnngh

i want to vote boon but I feel bad for it being self centered due to cgeetory and a bad scum read.

[Tammy]

VOTE: boonskies

yoloswag

[Tammy]

UH I'm reading through my posts and seeing notscience actually claim I don't setup spec. Someone please hold his feet to the fire tomorrow.

[Tammy]

VOTE: notscience

that's actually a scum claim.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Tammy

Don't say I didn't tell yuh post game.

that I'm town? Yay you!

[Tammy]

VOTE: boon

whatever.

I do think that needs to be resolved thoiugh.

[Tammy]

Which, ffery then told me I was wrong and I was like "welp gues I'm lying and scum, or I was apathetic and missed it. You decide!"

What were you apathetic and missed?

[Tammy]

I think it would be funny if the scum team is Nacho/anenin/cheetory because then they could be team quote stripes!

I've also kinda been thinking about possible setups here as I think empire likes to experiment with stuff. I don't think he'd do multiball, but I do wonder if he'd do serial killer? I can't remember how he feels about those. Anyway ny 169 was him experimenting to see how a higher powered but lower numbered team would do as opposed to lower powered higher number, which he favors, if I remember correctly. Anyway, this doesn't really mean anything just something I was wondering about.

Setup speccing in my first twenty posts like ayayayayayayayayayayyayayayayyayyayay please read me.

[Tammy]

empire!

[Tammy]

i just read through my iso because that's how sensitive and self-centered I'm feeling at the moment regarding this game and I still don't see any of the arguments against me.

Good luck everyone tonight.

[Tammy]

No, you said that I did not do something that you recognized me doing in other games and town read me for. That's false and disingenuous. I don't need to do something to get you to town read me over other people in this game, but you acted like it's something I haven't done and I can't undersandt why.

[Tammy]

*are you seriously going to still suspect me after there aren't any other investigative roles that claim because I'm flattered but seriously*

[Tammy]

Yeah, I'm just going to step away because I think the markers have been there since my first if not earliest posts and somehow it's my fault, so I'm backing away.

[Tammy]

EMPIRE!!!

(And I am sorry for claiming but when absolutely noone had my back on me being town and there was flotation's about me being flash lynched at deadline I'm not sure what anyone expected me to do.)

[Tammy]

First things first. I'm very sorry for claiming at the end of day yesterday. I've been having a very bad week - I'm much better now - and while it may not have been on the table to lynch me for most, many?, of you, that's not how it felt to me. How it felt to me was that there was a lot of free-floating paranoia about me and a couple scum reads and no actual town reads that when there was the suggestion to flashlynch me at deadline it felt like a real possibility and I freaked out. I've been trying to keep a rational head about mafia lately, but I fail at it sometimes especially when I'm just feeling overwhelmed.

Though Red - I don't feel like I've been robotic. I have been trying to take some suspicion on me a bit more rationally or lightly, especially if it's something I might understand, in an attempt to keep the drama from getting very toxic though I don't exactly think it's my fault if noone creates drama with me and I don't know why it's a problem if I don't create drama with someone, especially since I'm very good at creating drama as scum anyway. I also didn't feel like I was whining or crying about my meta or being busy. It's not just this game; it's a shift that's been happening this year, and I have been explaining it as I've been getting concerns - one of which I did in a recent game with notscience in which I explicitly said it was an explanation for that game and any future games - so it did concern me that he wasn't taking that game into account. The fact of the matter is that I think a lot of the reason I got so easily town read is because I had a lot of time at one point to be extremely active and because I was and very engaged, I got town read very easily. Changes in my life over the course of the year means I don't have the time for that anymore. It's a good thing! But it has meant that I've had to shift my approach for games. So, when I've explained it in one game, I flip town, I expect that that would be some type of consideration for how to read me, not just expect that I'm going to suddenly act just like I used to a year ago. I don't know if that makes sense.

Anyway, I investigated Implosion last night and got no result. I can't understand why SS would jail keep me as that just seems silly. I'm surprised with Implosion saying the thing about him dying being surprising considering two prs. That death doesn't really surprise me at all if you think about it. Nobody would kill Implosion. Let's say he's not mafia and is in fact a 2-shot vig, why kill him? If he takes his shot, he's essentially a VT from there on out, and leaving him alive helps with the concern that he's an SK, and if there's just one kill that he's a member of the mafia. They wouldn't kill me for a couple reasons. If the jailkeepre was a doc, I was the obvious protection last night, and if Implosion or Red Coyote were town, then it wouldn't matter really just to confirm them and give an obvious night kill. And if my setup spec, hold on a minute for that, is close and if one of them is scum, mafia probably has a role blocker so it wouldn't matter. By process of elimination they were probably able to determine who blocked the night kill (if Implosion is not mafia), so that one was a no brainer.

Anyway, for anyone interested on whether or not I may or may not actually be a town role cop, and yes I agree with a mass claim right now because I don't expect any more power but it would be interesting if someone did claim something, here's a few things to look at:

I've also kinda been thinking about possible setups here as I think empire likes to experiment with stuff. I don't think he'd do multiball, but I do wonder if he'd do serial killer? I can't remember how he feels about those. Anyway ny 169 was him experimenting to see how a higher powered but lower numbered team would do as opposed to lower powered higher number, which he favors, if I remember correctly. Anyway, this doesn't really mean anything just something I was wondering about.

This never comes from me as a mafia role cop, because who cares mafia role cop is standard. When I got my role, after complaining about getting a scummy investigative role, I got to thinking, why did I get a role cop? So I looked at the wiki and they were talking about how the role cop is kinda a weak investigative role on a similar line as a tracker. And that a role cop could get a result on a serial killer in a way a cop necessarily might not be able to. Also, a role cop gets back vanilla results on goons and vts, so it's not a role that can really out a whole lot of people but it potentially good come mass claim time, so I thought that I could be really open about how I thought of the game but try to not make myself as much of a tempting night kill, which wasn't hard because I ended up not having any scum reads, while also trying to figure out how to make sure my results were out there in the case of mass claim.

You have got to be kidding me.

Also, I'm not sure what that I'll does to the great reads I didn't have. I need to really sit down with this game though.

Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed. That fits into my worldview better and maybe keeps me from looking at the game squinty eyed where I'm likely to jump at every shadow like a tweaked out meth addict.

Sk pretending to be vig works too.

Okay, I'm going to go back to sleep.

During the night phase, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out who definitely would be here day two and who might be run up. I had several people in mind, but I settled on Gnomeo. I got a vanilla result and when I came to the thread I found out all of the time I had spent in the night phase trying to make sure I made the correct decision was a waste because he actually died.

Again, here's me contemplating an SK because I'm still trying to figure out why he chose role cop.

oh okay that makes sense.

also bus driver might be the type of inventive role that empire would put in the game to act as a doctor too, hrm.*

*interesting which would mean vanilla still.

Okay so, here's the bus driver conversation. The bus driver in my mind would have had to have been town. The * is me crumbing my result. I got vanilla from targeting gnomeo, if he'd been bus driven then that person would also be vanilla and this was my result in case I died before mass claim and the bus driver outed as switching two people night one.

That's probably good enough.

I don't understand vinkah's take about empire fucking with us on a role cop/miller combo, that makes sense.

In swagtown I, there was a tracker, 3-shot neighborizer, and a body guard to three goons.

Well both the neighborizer and the bodyguard can be seen as things that the tracker can track somewhere to get some positive results.

For a role cop, a miller just serves as something to get a positive on that wouldn't show to an actual cop. Yeah, I'd be able to confirm he's a miller, that's not fucking with anyone because a miller isn't an actual role and considering the fact that for the majority of the game, most likely, I'll be coming back with vanilla results it serves to balance out the fact that I'll be getting vanilla results for mafia goons.

I would say that the presence of a vig? means that mafia, if implosion is in fact a vig, is not made up of three goons. But unfortunately I can't tell you if he is or ins't a vig, and I'm sorry for that.

[Tammy]

Implosion - on phone not gonna quote. No me not understanding your surprise at the night kill has nothing to do with you not getting my setup spec I hadn't said yet, it just seems like common sense.

If you are the vig you say you are, heck even if you're the sk,

mafia missed their kill night one

which is bad for them. It makes sense that that would be their priority for the nightkill. And since they are the ones who knew who they tried to kill, they could narrow down the most likely culprit.

Why did you think we'd be in mylo today if your kill went through? Am I wrong on numbers?

[Tammy]

i have some work I have to complete tonight, so I won't be able to do anything really until I finish with this.

Oversoul - I second ffery's question about why suggest I'm scum and then ask me who to vote. As to your other question. Ffery's been a pretty strong town read since day one with wicked not far behind. Not sure of much else.

I know I wasn't jailed night one as I got a result from gnomeo.

Hopefully I'll be back in a bit and can actually read everything from today.

[Tammy]

My first thought is that over soul is town. I thought that might have been why he grouped the three of us together. His asking for reads from three people on not science in a particular order is one of the types of things I think is more likely to come from town him processing the game than scum him. I'm not sure what to think about his claim though or his insistence that I investigate him while at the same time asserting that I'll recognize him as town though; I feel like my role would be better used on a suspect.

There are a couple things that hit my gut wrong in we the purple that I should have pushed on, one of those was the way he dealt with suspicion on his slot and my rvs vote on him, which he took seriously and kind of postured about me needing to get my eyes checked or something like that.

Anyway, how he's gone about a couple things here match up more to his town game like the recent space dandy's where he kinda tried to dominate some things to fit how he wanted them to be and how he thought roles should be used. I think that over soul has a pretty good scum game when he wants to, but I also think that wtp was the first scum game he played since coming back from a break? so I'm not sure this is his scum game.

I need to re read through all the notscince/pie/red stuff again.

I had something else hrm. I'm really super tired though and am getting up really early, so I'll probably just come back to this tomorrow. I have a decent drive tomorrow though; I'll try to process some stuff then.

[Tammy]

I'm out for the day so won't be able to check in until later. I was toying with the possibility that over soul is actually a TV trying to draw the nightkill his way.

I'd really really like it if no one would lunch os right now though!

[Tammy]

I'll be Tammy for life!

I won't be here until evening probably maybe late afternoon before I get home.

[Tammy]

I hope Tammy has stuff to say that makes all the puzzle peices fit.

no pressure, Tammy!

:/

I just wanna hide my head in the sand.

No, but seriously I kinda caught up and will try to have something to say as soon as I finish watching the season 2 finale of ointb!

[Tammy]

vote: Nacho

:/

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

This feels flat, and I'm just so at a loss for what to think of you right now. In Tales of Vesperia when I an everyone else was reading you wrong and you thought there was a glimmer of ffery reading you correctly somewhere and faltering the like loss of an ally felt more real. I remember you saying something along the lines of ffery I think you saw it because you understand me better than anyone, and I think that statement was a reflection to the emotional aspect that was infused in your game that she realized early one when she said that you were town.

So, this or the response, idk, has me confused.

[Tammy]

Nacho :/

(I'm going to reread through oversoul and reread through a town and scum game tonight just to get on some grounding, but oversoul knows damn well I wouldn't just investigate him because he told me to.)

[Tammy]

It almost feels like that today the scum team decided to waltz in and spray that glow in the dark confetti stuff all over the place and we got some of it stuck in our eyes and we're just looking around confused and half-blind.

[Tammy]

Oh oversoul you got my setup info wrong. In the last swag town mini normal there was a bodyguard/3-shot neighborizer/tracker to three goons (without day talk), but in NY169 which was a large normal, empire was experimenting with numbers versus roles, so he had a four-man scum team when people would probably typically expect five because he personally believed that numbers trumped roles but was seeing if his belief panned out.

[Tammy]

Ugh I thought for sure I remembered a post of ffery's trying to get stuff out there in the event she died and now I can't find it. Can someone help? Am I hallucinating?

[Tammy]

I don't think "playing scummy to get reads based off of how people view you" excuses him from anything, if that's what you're asking.

because he does it every game?

It's part of the reason I'm townreading him. the other stuff is mostly how he's interacting with me and with his scumreads.

I'm telling you this so you won't try to lynch him after I die.

This tammy?

Yeah, that's what I was looking for. I don't know why ctrl-f was giving me a hard time.

When I read this yesterday, I just thought this read so town.

I'm wondering why Nacho is overlooking stuff like this to call her potential scum because of her vote on him.

(I'm not going to lie. My major paranoia right now is that ffery looks so town because she's on a strong scum team with maybe nacho and someone else mist like and that's making it difficult, but rationally I don't want to believe that. And rationally I want to believe that ffery has been looking like she's been trying to figure out the game since the beginning, was doing decent game-solving with soft-spoken, and is just town here.)

[Tammy]

I still need to mull over you/pie. So much of it was based around me/expectations of reads on me, that it always makes me need to take a step back. I mean I know I'm town here so I know where all of my motivations come from, but I also know that I'm biased towards people who take my side and defend me and recognize when I'm town when I think they should, and while that makes me want to go she's toooooooooown, I know it's a weakness which also makes me paranoid.

So, it's a weird tennis game in my head I need to try to read through objectively.

[Tammy]

Ugh I thought for sure I remembered a post of ffery's trying to get stuff out there in the event she died and now I can't find it. Can someone help? Am I hallucinating?

Day 2? I was trying to make sure my reasons for townreading S-s were understood. I also went to some effort to show S-s why I was townreading Wicked. I thnk one of the last things I posted was an updated notsci read and that I wanted Vinkah to be a priority today.

It wasn't one post. It was scattered through late day 1.

It might have been but Post 1455 that notscience found was the one I was looking for. That post, in particular, read to me like you expected to take the kill that night and wanted your read out there and it's what reinforced my read.

pedit: I can't imagine ffery playing to me.

[Tammy]

Nacho - I kinda want to lynch you right now. How do you feel about that?