Mini Normal 1707 - Frog Mafia! - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!

[MaxwellPuckett]

Hello there everyone!

Glad to join the game in its early stages.

[MaxwellPuckett]

AxleGreaser 137 ^^^^, 241^^^^
zakk 64 vvvv , 80 vvvv , 111 ^^^^, 112 ^^^^, 120 ^^^^, 168^^^^

Scorpious, 236^^^^
BlueBloodedToffee 103 ^^^^, 172 vvvv
notscience 142 ^^^^, 206 ^^^^
Shiro 161 ^^^^

Metal Sonic

singersigner 171 ^^^^, 192 ^^^^, 242vvvv
Malakittens 131 vvvv, 173 ^^^^, 186 ^^^^
shadowez 144 ^^^^, 245^^^^

VeeGee 138 vvvv

As I read, zakk went from the bottom of my list to the highest group, which was interesting to see.

This is... about where I am now, for reads. This list was created and names were swapped around as I read. Linked posts have how I feel about them beside them.

VOTE: VeeGee

I'm trying something new for me with this list! Also, unrelated but the colours are exciting + pretty. 10/10 would make coloured list again.

Metal Sonic - What's up with ya this game? What are your reads?

Fro99er, I'm pretty sure I avoided your colour, but if you feel I didn't, I'm very sorry about that, and I won't do it again.

[MaxwellPuckett]

ika hasn't posted yet. What's your read on him, singer?

Singer, what specifically in that post is bothering you? Or is it just not good enough to overturn your self-proclaimed tunnel on a lurker?

PEDIT: Fair enough, Mala. You could ask about posts where you disagree with what I think. Personally, I don't think my format is any different from someone quoting a post and saying 'this is town' or 'this is scum', a trend that I see in every game on mafiascum, ever. In fact, singer just did that when she quoted my post.

Real-time interaction is a lot more fruitful for me than readups, so I was kind of hoping that list would entice people to ask about my reads.

And, I'm totally using the colours again. WILL probably go back to sentence blurbs about players instead of linking to posts, I guess? Personally I think linking to posts and giving a thumbs up or thumbs down is still better than nothing at all, which I was tempted to do. But I'd already grabbed the post numbers, it would have felt like a waste. I dunno, I do what I want.

[MaxwellPuckett]

@shaddowez

I've voted VeeGee.

I would like people to join me.

I wouldn't call this post similar to sonic's, because of tone. To me, it reads like 'I've done my part, let's get going with my lynch', and while I agree with the actual thought to lynch VeeGee, I disagree with BBT appearing to just call the day done and not want to really.. talk about anything else.

Sonic is a weird case because he's one of the players on the playerlist that I've actually played with, and his posting style is often like this, to an annoying degree. I want to engage him directly about his reads and form a proper read based on that. I don't want to let him coast, and I will not, but the behaviour is null for him.

As for VeeGee's 138, it isn't really the fluffy post behaviour that makes me scumread it. It's just an example of many posts where I have no idea what VeeGee is responding to or talking about. Bonus points for VeeGee making a post that attempts to be calling out.. whoever it is he's talking to, but is ultimately extremely pointless.

The only thing VeeGee has to say about zakk's readslist is 'what about me'. 207

Also, 234. How and why is my slot obvious scum, and why have you not voted said 'obvious scum'? I haven't seen you mention Nosferatu before you decided to pitch in on a developing wagon.

PEDIT: Here's some thought process. It came from questions. I'm not gonna clog the thread with every single thought process of mine unless I think it's important or someone asks me about it.

As for the flashiness... were the colours that bad? I like them, they look nicer than a colourless list.

You're right about the tunnel thing, though, that was a mistake on my part, since you did think it was ika posting it. My fault for not putting two and two together, sorry.

[MaxwellPuckett]

shaddowez: Sorry, after the PEDIT I was talking to singersigner. I didn't realize I hadn't actually put her name in there until you pointed it out.

Besides that part, do you agree or disagree that the three fluffy/silly posts (VeeGee's, BBT's, and all of Sonic's posts) are all different from each other?

[MaxwellPuckett]

zakk, can you point to what is objectively scummy about notscience's posts?

I've thought their play to be pretty protown. I know they had a scumread of you, and I don't remember the current status of that read, but beyond that my memory is not giving me anything and I doubt an ISO would change anything by itself if my initial readthrough of notscience didn't hit my scumdar.

Axle, your posting style is very confusing. Very, very confusing, and cryptic. This is a neutral observation, and I don't really have an opinion on it, game-wise or personally.

[MaxwellPuckett]

zakk, can you point to what is objectively scummy about notscience's posts?

Have you read my posts? Orrrr

I'm asking because you said that notscience did things that were 'objectively' (that exact word) as opposed to 'subjectively' scummy. I was hoping you could underline those points for me, because sifting through that massive case-post on notscience, its difficult to pick them out. Specifically, which points are there that you just think town wouldn't do?


Axle, I can't believe it took me THIS long to remember where exactly I'd played with you. I definitely recognized you but my first newbie game on the site was not where I was looking for ya... good to know.

Your posts are actually easier for me to understand than they were. You're being cryptic on purpose, so it's still difficult, but at least I can guess at what you're trying to do here.

I'm suspicious because in that game, I didn't really see a reason to read you as scum, and I'm not really seeing a reason here, either. So I don't know how to go about things, haha. Your read on zakk is exactly opposite of mine, though... at the beginning I definitely thought he was scum, but I'm see a lot of towniness more recently and I'm pretty sure of that read at the moment. What do you think of his read on notscience?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Like I said, zakk's early play wasn't good. The first two things you quoted were from early game, and the later quote (257) has him apologizing for his earlier play? I don't see that as anti-town, especially since it happened way later than the actual anti-town behaviour.
And I HAVE seen positive changes with zakk's play.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I have no idea about singer, but Sonic doing something like what you just described, Axle, I could see. I want to talk to Sonic properly and make a read on him based on that, though.

As for the rest of stuff about Zakk, I get where you're coming from, and why you're scumreading him. I think I'll be paying a lot of attention to zakk, but right now I think he's a positive influence on the game, even if other players perhaps don't see it that way. By the way, could you repeat what you want zakk to explain, things that he 'handwaved' earlier? I'd like to see him respond to you on that.

I think it should be pretty obvious that I want VeeGee lynched, though. If not him, then Malakittens.

[MaxwellPuckett]

So... like I understand what you're saying, but why would a scum zakk knowingly do anti-town behaviour? If he understood his behaviour being anti-town at the time, as you claim... why do it? Is it not more likely that at the time, he didn't realize his behaviour was anti-team play (I believe that's what you're saying), and only realized later?

Speaking from personal experience, one's feelings at the time of a post are usually a lot different then their feelings when reading it later.

So. is there a plausible explanation as to why a scum zakk who, knowing what anti-town play looks like, would choose to play in that way?

PEDIT: I've never played with either zakk or VeeGee.

But you're saying that VeeGee is normally like this, right? If that's the case, I'll read up on him and re-assess, but within the boundaries of this game only I don't see why lynching VeeGee is a bad idea. Since VeeGee is apparently always somewhat scummy.. what would you look for in determining his alignment? How would you avoid dismissing VeeGee as scum based on his meta of being scummy regardless of alignment?

And as for zakk's meta, I think I've explained about that before the PEDIT.

[MaxwellPuckett]

ika: How is zakk a VI? Also, if the game is like 15 pages in, read it. Or, you can jump on the only wagon and ignore what happened while you were away. Your meta isn't difficult, ika, and I'll be happy to vote you if you decide to take an inactive role in this game.

Axle: Alright, I guess I understand your theory. I don't really agree, but I get where you're coming from? Or at least I see how you've explained his behaviour from a scum perspective.

Malakittens: A breakdown of your reads would be cool.

Zakk: My slot has a lot to answer for? Please, ask away if you have problems. I honestly don't know what the heck you expect me to say about Nosferatu, though. Lurksack? Had too many games going? Low-hanging fruit lynch?

[MaxwellPuckett]

*coughs and points at pronoun*

I'm almost tempted to greentext this.

>voted because of predecessors actions (this is the only one that makes sense)
>told i 'have a lot to answer for' about said predecessor
>say i don't see the point of me talking about the person i replaced
>get told i am 'defending my predecessor'

[MaxwellPuckett]

Oh, right, and singer, do we actually agree about Mala? I think zakk's play has been a lot better than theirs. If VeeGee is always like this, and I'll check them out tomorrow, I'd rather move my vote over to Mala.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Ika, if you'd been reading MY ISO, you'd see that I initially didn't like his posting, but now I do. And I've already explained that I think zakk is posting just fine. Why don't you tell me how he's been making illogical statements, or blatantly misreading, or generally not playing the game right?

PEDIT @ singersigner: low-hanging fruit because lurker. Also, yeah, I could see why he was being voted... how is that a defense of his actions? I don't care about defending him, but I do care about players who bring Nosferatu's position up in relation to my slot, as if I'm obligated to clean up his mess. (here's looking at you, zakk) And then saying my play is 'strange' as if I'm purposely trying to fix things up. Confbiasing, you see what you wanna see, blah blah blah.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Max have you played with zakk before? Alternatively have you read his games?

--irrelevant bits not relating to the question--

Which brings me back to max and my question. If he has no knowledge of zakk (

which seems to be the case

) I find his defense of him to be awful and one of two things.

1. Scum trying to defend partner and incase he gets lynched give Wifom of none would blatantly defend his partner so obviously.

Now I believe zakk is town which brings us to
2. Scum who is defending zakk so when zakk dies/gets lynched he can get told you so cred.

Is it impossible to be town defending a real town read? No but it is more unlike it in my opinion.

No, I haven't played with zakk before, or read his games.

This post is terrible. Like.. really bad. You said, literally, right there... that you were TOWNREADING zakk. So why is it strange that I would be townreading him????

You had a slight townread from me before because I remember liking one of your few posts, but your conclusion here is just ridiculous. I'm kind of baffled that no one but Axle brought up this post, and even then he didn't really seem to have a problem with it.

Zakk is probably town, and besides that, I was getting kind of pissed at him being called a VI, or his posting style being called bad or useless, when that wasn't what I was seeing in his later play. It's kind of a thing for me, I don't like seeing people get insulted.

The only thing that gives me pause is that you unvoted to hear me out, but your original question breaks down if you look at it critically. Like at all. You've set up a scenario where my answer to this one question will determine your vote, proven by what you said when you unvoted me. Putting aside the fact that you don't seem to have anything to say about my play besides your one stretched assumption, if you were actually trying to figure out my alignment, you wouldn't have asked this question. You already know the answer, I bolded it.

Your unvote was an attempt to look towny while you waited for my answer. I'm sure, after this, you will say, 'okay, I was right, bringing Max up to L-1'.

VOTE: Shiro

VeeGee isn't priority, considering his play's usually like this. Backburner I guess, and I don't like leaving players like this to late-game, but.. eh.

Metal Sonic is a better lynch, I'm still waiting for him to weigh in on.. everything. A better lynch than Sonic, but a worse lynch than Shiro, is Malakittens. I'm also liking BBT less as the day goes on. AxleGreaser is very probably town, as is zakk. Singersigner remains one of the few people on my wagon whose vote actually feels legitimate, so I'm forced to reevaluate how I was reading her.

And finally:
I'm a VT.

PEDIT: While writing this, I saw that Shiro actually, *gasp* posted something about me that isn't this post. I'll check it out.

[MaxwellPuckett]

One: Zakk playing in an anti-town way at the beginning is not a reason for my townread. Though, now that I think about what you were saying in 461, that's like.. really, really shit WiFom to perform as scum. Who comes up with a plan for themselves to purposely play badly and then not play badly, hoping that someone will say what I'm saying? Also, you lose points for dismissing something as 'wifom' because that's a lazy as hell way to try and win and argument. This whole game is wifom, with the exception of PRs. Deal.

Zakk gets a townread from me because... holy shit read his posts?? Like the notscience case and read are bad but beyond that, he makes cases, tries to figure things out, blah blah blah generic shit. I can't believe I'm sitting here making a town-case on zakk for scum(Shiro) but I'll do it because Axle wants an answer too, and because I'm sick of zakk scumreads in this game.

-168, I like the trying to get sonic to do things without just dismissing him as scum right off the bat. (This was before sonic continued to Not Do Things, and fell into the scum pile)
-i like that they saw a notscience lynch wasn't going to happen, and instead of continuing to push it, decided to look for other scum instead. 210
-evidence of reads changing as things happen instead of forced reads
-i like their posts, they are thinking. i like their posts??? they go digging for shit and they ENGAGE with people and gggghhhhsgdah
-i like 429, it seems very honest with how he's feeling about Mala

i can go get more. I'm honestly just surprised that you, Axle, aren't liking his play. Besides his earlier play, what do you not like about his recent posts?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Shiro, you're so hung up on the fact that zakk is a top townread of mine.

-About 168, he DOES have sonic on his scumlist now.

-Notscience case. Fair enough.

-third point. i assume you mean 'zakk's reads changing'? How is that not alignment indicative? Scum make up their reads, town thinks about them. Your arguments continually do not make sense.

-holy shit, 5am?

Once AGAIN, zakk's early bad play and what alignment that may or may not have indicated DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY TOWNREAD OF HIM. You and Axle gave reasons for why scum would play in this way. I gave a reason for why town would play in this way to explain how zakk's early play does not definitely make him scum. I'm taking it as null. Holy fried fucking chicken fingers, it's not the reason for my townread.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Malakittens: I don't think your posts are particularly useful, but you've been actively posting. You give me bad feelings and your reaction to most of zakk's pushes on you have been varying degrees of bad. I'll grab specific posts later, but I'm not interested in building a case on you unless Shiro suddenly stops contriving reasons to get back on my wagon.

Axle: I always wondering why you let me live and killed the cop in that game. I'd forgotten to ask you in post-game. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about you saying that you could predict/puppet me well. I mean.. obviously you did, but still. My style has actually changed a lot, keep in mind that was my very first game on the site. Or have you read other games of mine?

PEDIT @ Axle, about my quote from 470: My response was for Shiro, not in response to your argument. Shiro called zakk's early play Wifom, which would imply that zakk had some sort of agenda, not that he made a mistake as you claim. At least, that's what I thought Shiro was saying.. apparently she was actually calling my defense of that wifom. Not sure how that works. Is it even possible for scum to WiFom the defense of a town player? Shiro said zakk was town to her.

PEDIT @ Shiro: Okay now you're just disagreeing with my personal opinions. The fact is, you think zakk is town... therefore, from your POV, he MUST be playing from his own towny place, right? So do you really think its THAT STRANGE that someone who you think is town is posting things that I'm picking up as town? Like think about it for one second.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I can see that. I remember scumreading Swagrid until he was the uncced cop. I'm interested in what games of mine you were looking at, but I don't want to clutter this thread so I'll ask about it in post-game or something.

[MaxwellPuckett]

By recent play, you mean really recent, don't you? I was referring to the stuff from after when I replaced into the game, and that was a few days back.

Talking about anything except me. Good point. Zakk, why ARE you voting me, and why am I scummy? You're compromising on a lynch, I know, but are there not better options? Your scumread of my slot has been here since you said that Nosferatu's play before his replace-out was scummy. You said my play was better, but it seems to have done almost nothing to change your read.

As for the L-1, I didn't think about that I guess. It's become kind of standard for me to see people asking for claims at L-1.

Like.. I see where you're coming from with zakk, I do. Maybe I was too annoyed about having to defend my townread of him, but I WOULD like my question here answered, now.

PEDIT: Malakittens: The MOST bullshit thing you've heard all day? Have been reading reading my talk with Shiro rn? But in all seriousness, I want to hear from Sonic. I've not really seen him like this as town OR scum, yknow? He's also a player I actually have some confidence reading because I've played with him, so lynching him D1 when he hasn't really been around doesn't sit right with me. If he doesn't post soon, Fro99er promises a force-replace, and if he continues to prodge, I'd be happy to vote him. After Shiro. But right at this second? He's below you on my lynchlist.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Malakittens: Okay, I'm sorry I'm insulting you. Did I say your play was stupid? I don't think I did, I just think that what you've been doing looks scummy to me. Don't take it personally. I think I've explained why I want to see what Sonic will do here. I haven't seem him do this as town or scum tbh, so I just wanna wait until he responds.

As for what Fro99er said, I think I was mixing it up with an announcement he made about how week-long V/LAs would no be tolerated, and him saying to.. someone, I don't remember who, that they'd have to post something game-related (not a prodge) or they would be forced replaced. Either way, what I meant was that if Sonic continues to act like this he'll just be replaced... and if he shows up again then we'll deal with him then.

PEDIT @ Axle: You made me look at his L-1 vote on me again, and now I want him to answer about his scumread on me. No, I didn't catch it before you brought it up.

It all comes back to 193, and once again, you bring up things I didn't catch. When you said it in 367, I don't think I understood, but what you've said just now makes more sense to my head right now. He was saying notscience was scummy before then, and brought up all of those points in an attempt to get other people to agree with his case too. You're saying that those points were just to back up a read that he'd made up.

I dunno, you're very sure about this and the more I see where you're coming from the more I'm reconsidering, etc. etc. I don't know, I don't think I'd vote zakk at this point.. I at least want to hear what he says about his scumread on me, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Zakk, glad to hear you're scum hunting scum. Now, about the reason I'm scum? Still waiting on that. Your response did not address it, all you did was ask how I felt about your vote on me. Nice that you're looking for reactions while you gripe that my Lynch hasn't gone through yet.

But, if you actually are looking for reactions, I didn't really think much of your vote on me at the time. It seems in line to how you were thinking. I was third in your scumlist, and the first in your scumlist didn't look lynchable to you. But now I'm wondering what you're actually scum reading me for, right now.

We're talking about you, we're talking about me, I'm also talking about Shiro, axle is talking to everybody he can, and I was really hoping for you to weigh in on something there.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Bah, I'll be V/LA for the weekend. Back a day before deadline, though. This was unplanned and annoying.

I'm unhappy with zakk not answering me. And I guess Shiro gets a pass for now for backing off, but I still don't like the original push or the logic behind it. I feel like you're hyperfocusing on that point to avoid having to backtrack but... day 2 I can get into Shiro. I'd love everyone's opinions on Shiro, actually. I feel like no one wants to talk to them, or about them, and it annoys me.

Not sure how happy I am to go back to VeeGee, I'd rather go after someone I'm sure is scum which is.. I guess no one, right this second. I want to be around and make decisions after zakk gets back to me but I can't do that right now. I won't have any access during this weekend up until Sunday night.

I don't want something bad to happen while I'm gone so I'm going to leave my vote where it is. Not comfortable voting zakk until I've talked with him and not really comfortable going back to VeeGee considering that's where Shiro just went... yeah yeah, pre-flip associatives, cry me a river, I'll make a decision when I get back.

PEDIT: BBT, is Scorpious less scummy to you than VeeGee? Why?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Good job, town!

I'm not sure if the setup is balanced or not, but I do know that the reason Shiro and I were lynched in the first two days had nothing to do with that, and town earned their win.