Mini Normal 1707 - Frog Mafia! - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!

[shaddowez]

Hey all - this is a prod dodge, and I apologize! I usually have limited access over the weekend, and this weekend was worse than expected. I'll be back tomorrow night.

[shaddowez]

Page 4 and it looks like we're still in RVS....In that case

VOTE: Ciara

Semi-serious vote, actually. Does her RVS votes, but then has a fluff post in 38 and doesn't engage with any of the other players that have been posting.

[shaddowez]

Page 4 and it

looks like we're still in RVS

....In that case

VOTE: Ciara

X

Semi-serious vote, actually. Does her RVS votes, but then has a fluff post in 38 and doesn't engage with any of the other players that have been posting.

So it's a random vote, but it's a semi-serious vote?

Do tell.

There wasn't much going on, so I commented it looked like it was still RVS. Made my vote, which wasn't actually a random vote, and since I had made the comment about RVS made sure to clarify. Part of the point was to also generate some discussion, which other than your post it didn't, so that failed.

So tell me, if Mala, Axle, and Notty are all scum, who's town?

[shaddowez]

Sooo, everyone's scum?

who are you responding to, this time?

please try to at least make it clear what your scant words refer to.

While I think he's referring to zakk, I have to agree with Axle here...directing your questions at people would help in getting answers.

Such as: Veegee, your vote is still on Singer from an RVS vote. Do you actually think they're scum, or are you just vote parking?

[shaddowez]

Alright, I've been left out of a few of the reads lists and/or put as null because my activity's been crap in this game, and I apologize for that. Now that that's out of the way:

Anyone wanna vote VeeGee?

I do. I'm answering this first for my post to be in a logical order, but was already forming a case against him before I got to this post.

UNVOTE:



I am so freaking forgetful.

This is a convenient unvote after I mention your vote parking in 145, but you don't actually answer the question of what you think, nor have you used your vote, let alone made any comments about who you think is scum. As a matter of fact, all you've made are sarcastic and/or fluff posts, and even in 234 where you call Nosferatu obvscum and say to lynch the replacement, you

don't

place a vote.

I think Veegee is town

@Notty:

Considering the lack of input from VeeGee, why do you have a town read on him?

[shaddowez]

Hit submit instead of preview.

Also doing this for now:
VOTE: VeeGee

[shaddowez]

Because his play here feels much more laid back than it did in 1625.

Assuming I'm looking into the right game, I disagree completely. He had a total of 8 posts in that game before being replaced, one of which is a prod dodge. He was scum in that game, and from reading through his posts and interactions, I'm actually getting the same feeling.

[shaddowez]

Zakk

- thoughts on a NS/VeeGee scum team?

[shaddowez]

But sure, I could be scum for townreadig him.

Not actually scum reading you for that - people can be wrong, I try to never use somebody else's reads for my own unless there's some sort of evidence (cop claim, etc).

[shaddowez]

I've voted VeeGee.

I would like people to join me.

VCs are tech. >_>

Singer

- I don't understand your response to BBT here, could you please explain? Also, what's your current read on VeeGee?

[shaddowez]

Then why are you scumreading me?

Sorry, that was bad phrasing on my part. I'm not actually scum reading you at the moment - I'm scum reading VeeGee, and I know Zakk is scumreading you, so I wanted to see how he may correlate the two of you.

[shaddowez]

I didn't like the list at first, then realized the posts were linked and it wasn't so bad.

Maxwell

- why the null read on Sonic when similar posts from other people (BBT and VeeGee specifically) had you downing them?

[shaddowez]

Maxwell

- did you start talking to different people in 283, because you lost me if not

[shaddowez]

shaddowez: Sorry, after the PEDIT I was talking to singersigner. I didn't realize I hadn't actually put her name in there until you pointed it out.

Besides that part, do you agree or disagree that the three fluffy/silly posts (VeeGee's, BBT's, and all of Sonic's posts) are all different from each other?

I find them more similar than you do, but I can see where you're coming from. My main concern would be MS just slipping by at this point by just sheeping Mala and not providing any real content.

but beyond that my memory is not giving me anything and I doubt an ISO would change anything by itself if my initial readthrough of notscience didn't hit my scumdar.

I don't like this,

at all

. IMO rereads are essential, I know I've missed stuff or read into things differently once other posts have been made.

I will be interested in you showing me how VeeGee is scummier than is normal for vee gee.

Axle

- Do you have links to show this is VeeGee's town play, because I'm also looking for a VeeGee lynch at the moment.

[shaddowez]

I was going to try to post content instead of prod dodge, but I've missed 9 days of content, sooo....

I'll be back Sunday night, with a day and a half until deadline. If anyone directs anything to me between now and then, I'll be sure to answer it first thing when I get back on.

[shaddowez]

Would lynch or demand a replace out on that one.

I'd be fine with either. That's balls to be the second least frequent poster to call v/la until a day and a half before dl. What leads us to believe that there will be more posting then..

So Singer (and Scorp, though to a much lesser extent) - what the Hell do you have on me for being scum outside of my posting times? And please, feel free to open your eyes and read my signature if there's any question about when I'm likely to post. I happened to miss Thursday night because I have a life, so I came on from my phone when I don't normally in order to prod dodge. If you can't seem to process that, or have a problem with the fact I can only be around for certain times on certain days, feel free to not join in games that I'm in in the future.

Now, onto actual game stuff that matters, and not BS from people that have a stick up their ass.

Shiro voted Nos early, and was continuing to interact and scumread that slot for part of the day. The hammer could easily have been to prevent the wagon from stalling based on the scumread, though it just as easily could have been for town cred. 508 has Shiro voting VeeGee, but has a couple of points in it that I don't like:

First, she makes a comment to Max about his last posts being townie, and Zakk's vote on Max being atrocious.
Second, her very first sentence is responding to BBT and saying she's willing to join the wagon on VeeGee, but then later in the post asks BBT what his reasons for the scumread on VeeGee are.
Third, she makes a comment about scum coasting or not participating, which Max has been.
Finally, asks Singer what her case on Max is.

I'm still wary of MS, though I honestly don't know if scum would be brazen enough to do what he's been doing. Is there some sort of role (town or scum) that would cause some sort of post restriction (such as "Queen Singer" being in x number of posts)?

VeeGee has also done absolutely nothing this game, and my case against him from 245 is even more apparent now. I also think that's the best lynch candidate for the day.

VOTE: VeeGee

I'm fairly certain that NS and singer are town right now, but I'm going to continue to ISO and look at interactions.

[shaddowez]

I don't give a shit about being a PoE vote, though if you're admitting that's the best you've got at this point that's a pretty shitty job. The game started on a weekend (2 days), I missed Thursday (1 day), and the lynch occurred over the weekend (2 days) when I couldn't post. You're saying that your problem with me is based on activity is a BS excuse for me calling you out on it. You only commented after I announced having to go V/LA, which if it was an activity issue you could have attempted to engage with me at any point. Additionally, you should be calling out other people who haven't been V/LA at all this game even moreso if activity's your problem.

This conversation, however, is not doing anything for the game, so I'm going to step out of it, and request you do the same.

[shaddowez]

Alright, damn it. This isn't going anywhere, but I'm going to lose my shit if VeeGee ends up flipping scum eventually. At this point I feel like I'm on him more as a PL than anything else, so I'm going to
UNVOTE:
Him and MS are both still in my lynch pool for the same reason, however.

Well if he accused you for it he would have had to be active himself

TBH I think there is a chance of ika being scum with the other being one of Shadow,veegee or metal

If you think that the low content posters are scum, why isn't BBT in that list? He outright calls himself on low activity.

This also seems to be a recent theory of yours, picking at the low hanging fruit as it were. A lot of players, especially vocal ones, would be more than eager to push for a lynch on any of the lurkers, so to all of a sudden be willing to say that "scum is one of them" feels contrived.

Axle's 926 is similar to my case in 770, though a bit more detailed. I was just reviewing my post, and realized I just left off at the end of my blurb about her, because I initially had a vote in there, then deleted that to vote VeeGee and never replaced it with any sort of read or review. I'm also noticing that a lot of Shiro's posts are based on either meta or associative tells, which unless you know the alignment of one (or more) of those involved are purely WIFOM. Since this was D1 pre-flip, this makes me think Shiro's scum.

VOTE: Shiro

That being said, I'd also be willing to vote for zakk. He throws out a lot of reads early on, with no valid explanations for any of them. Two out of three of His scum!Mala arguments in 106 are terrible(I don't necessarily see the last one as scummy, but can see where somebody else might). I don't like 114, as that feels like a "Scum don't do X, I'm doing X, therefore I'm not scum" argument.

I read people very well on D1 *shrug*

If that's the case, why did you move your vote off of Maxwell onto VeeGee very close to lynch time? Also, in relation to that slot:

Personally I would be glad for a replacement in that slot, and I don't think it's necessarily scum, just pretty easy-scum.

zakk opens a lot of discussion with the town, but rarely provides much insight of his own. 932 looks like AtE.

I agree with NS on a lot of Mala's play (outside of the defensiveness, I do that too). I've only been in one previous game with her as scum, and as the rest of the people talking about her meta say, she never voted for her scum buddy. I'm currently leaning town on her.

Axle, singer, and NS are all in my town pile to never be lynched.

ika is - I'm not sure. I've only been in one or two games with him, but his meta seems to be holding true in that game as well (was town, and fairly active). Leaning scum on him, based primarily on meta.

I'm liking Scorp as town, but there were a couple of posts on D1 that have me wary (240 and 377 specifically).

BBT is also a town read for me, as he's engaging, answering questions, and seems to be scum hunting.

[shaddowez]

Since you've now refuted the "hint" by saying you do it every game, there is no detriment to town to point it out.

Isn't this basically agreeing to Mala's point that it's antitown to have pointed it out?

[shaddowez]

zakk

- Your train of thought in 956 makes absolutely no sense. There was no mention of it being a crumb or not until you brought it up. Regardless of whether it was a crumb or not, bringing attention to it looks like you're PR hunting.

As for 957.
I'm going to refer to each of the post quotes as points so as to not clutter up the post:

Point 1

- The VeeGee lynch doesn't appear to be going anywhere, and while I still think he's scum (no backtracking, or doubletalk, or anything else to mince my words), I don't want my vote just sitting somewhere it's not going to help town. He's not my only scum read, so I unvoted (and moved my vote to another target, in the same post). Why are you so convinced the Shiro wagon won't go through? You and your other scumbuddies won't vote for them?

Points 2, 3, and 4

- You claim you're going to put my case "back in context", and then instead of actually addressing any of the things I say about you, just go "Well, Axle's not doing this"

Point 5

- Opening discussion is not in and of itself scummy. However, it allows for you to appear active when you're not actually doing anything but asking questions, and gives you the ability to fall back on "safe" answers when you don't actually follow through with them. For example: 26, you ask NS why singer over Mala, no follow up. 112 you ask me about my intro vote, then don't engage with me about that part at all, just answer a question I asked you in 144. In 166 you address Mala about NS, she replies in 173, no more from you. I can provide more if you'd like.

lest they receive numerous and devastating backlashy remarks from one and all about how they are a terrible person,

Point 6

- So you're attempting to protect Mala from being berated by...berating her? Makes sense to me.

Point 7

- I like how you say early on in the post you're going to put things in context, and then take things out of context to talk about them. I didn't find you suspecting VeeGee as scummy. What I found scummy was your claim of "reading people well on D1", followed by moving your vote off of Maxwell (who ended up flipping scum) onto a wagon that wasn't going anywhere when a lynch was near imminent.

Nice OMGUS vote there, btw.

[shaddowez]

Btw shadow do you realise what you are saying?

If you believe I am scum with VeeGee then you are saying I spend my day 1 pushing my partner then stopped to push my other partner only to go back and hammer the earlier.

I can see how someone can townread VeeGee and scum read me but scum read both of us? Sorry but that is dumb.

First off, didn't outright say I thought he was your partner. I made a comment about having to know the alignment of the other person...I can definitely see how scum could jump to that conclusion though.

You don't actually have a very strong push on Max at any point during the day, unless I'm completely missing something (and please feel free to provide links if I am.). You vote VeeGee early on as a lurker/pressure vote, and don't make any indication of thinking he's scum until the wagon has a little bit of steam. Then, without ever having voted Max earlier in the day, you come in, state intent, and then hammer 10 minutes later. Saying "I stated intent" isn't a valid defense when you still stole time from discussion.

Overall her play there feels more relaxed than it did here but I don't recall many if any people in that game truly townreading her, but I could be wrong so I'll check tonight.

NS, did you ever get a chance to do this?

Not very impressed

With what, exactly?

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- Typical V/LA until Sunday night

[shaddowez]

how did that post you just replied to, change your read on me, if at all?

It didn't really change it at all, though if I had to say it moved one way or the other, it was definitely more towards scum. If you actually read the post I made replying, you'd see why.

Cool, soooo, I don't really care about any of this and I didn't read it buuuut

It's about getting ALL the scum, and getting ALL the information you can, within reason

How do you get information when you admit you're not reading posts?

Shadow I was voting the slot since before max was in the game saying I never voted him before the hammer is BS

You're correct - Nos replaced out in another game I'm in, and I forgot that's who Max replaced. While I believe the rest of my argument still stands, I will review it with this in mind.

Also what you just said to zakk is worse, you ask if he thinks my lynch won't go through becau he and his buddy won't vote me

a rhetoric question implying that you think Zakk is scum with someone other than me.

You say I am not scum with VeeGee and neither zakk but we 3 are your top scum

Shadow can you give me your potential scum team?

I've actually never said you weren't scum with either VeeGee or zakk - if you could point me to where I do, that'd be great. I know you mention 1004, but that doesn't imply I don't think you're scumbuddies. Seeing as this isn't an open setup and I don't know how many scum there are, I thought phrasing it that way was more concise than "You and any of your other scum buddies that may or may not exist in this game...."

At this point you and zakk are my top two, though as mentioned in other posts I'd also be willing to lynch the lurky oddballs (mainly VeeGee, MS, and Ika).

[shaddowez]

Seeing as this isn't an open setup and I don't know how many scum there are,

....
....
....
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
STOMP STOMP STOMP

when you admit you're not reading posts?

Yep, I missed that line in Frogger's setup. Not used to being told the alignment split in a Mini.

[shaddowez]

That's not actually a counter claim >_>

If she was successfully jailkept, wouldn't a doc protection have failed?

[shaddowez]

Then, I'm not sure how it counts as a cc either

Also, town points to Sonic

[shaddowez]

I'm assuming BBT was a miller.

Why?

^This

Also, I'll sheep Scorp. I like that vote.

VOTE: zakk

[shaddowez]

That was the name of the frog he was assigned - it's used a number of times in the mod's flavor text (not just in the lynch post, either).

[shaddowez]

Guys, don't lynch Scorp. It makes much more sense to lynch zakk (or Mala as a second, though I don't even really want to say I'd settle on her lynch today - hers is more PoE).

[shaddowez]

I'm trying to work through the sequence of events in my head:

D1 - We lynch Maxwell, the encryptor.
N1 - Mala JK's singer, getting lucky with no NK.
D2 - We lynch Shiro, mafia goon. Mala announces she's JK.
N2 - Mala JK's BBT, again no NK.
D3 - We lynch BBT, VT.
N3 - Mala JK's Scorp, no NK.

Knowing that BBT was town, the fact that Mala is still alive doesn't actually make sense. Why wouldn't scum have killed her N2 instead of targeting BBT, who people were scum reading?

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

PoE has me down to three candidates for the last scum, none of which are actually zakk.

[shaddowez]

Screw it. Unless Scorp's godfather, he's town.

VOTE: Mala

[shaddowez]

There's no way we have a town JK, RCop, BRcop, and a regular cop. Either the JK or the BRcop is lying/scum. Also, unless NS or Scorp is godfather, they're both conftown.

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

I have an idea for optimum play, but it predicates on a couple of factors. If we're actually doing a mass claim, I'll wait until afterwards to go into details.

[shaddowez]

I'm a town ascetic cop. Will be around more tomorrow

[shaddowez]

I only have two results I'm willing to give right now, and if I'm alive I'll explain why tomorrow. Singer posted what I had as results already - notscience and Scorpious are both town. I investigated NS because of the D1 push on Mala. I didn't have a scumread on Mala, and wanted to confirm that NS wasn't scum pushing early on (might have been a bad read on my end, but it is what it is). I investigated Scorp last night because I knew he was going to be a lynch target today, and wanted to make sure we weren't lynching town, which as I said, unless he's a godfather we are.

My suggestion is we lynch somebody today (probably zakk). If he's scum, we win. If not, Mala JK's somebody (probably Scorp again). If I live, either Scorp is scum and we lynch him tomorrow, or scum decided to not NK again and let a cop live, in which case even if we mislynch tomorrow, we have a living cop. If I'm dead, it's either Mala or both Mala and Scorp are cleared.

Thoughts?

[shaddowez]

Before asked, my last result won't matter if I'm dead, and will do nothing to further the gamestate today.

Also, the reason I didn't even put hints out earlier was since I'm unprotectable, I didn't want scum to even have a hint that I was a cop until it mattered. That's also why I was trying to play a bit scummy, so they'd leave me alive for a chance of a mislynch.

[shaddowez]

I was actually just considering the No Lynch option as well. We avoid a mislynch, and just prolong scum from being able to win. As I said earlier, if Mala jails Scorp (and admits to doing so ahead of time), scum has to no kill to make Scorp look bad, which we can try to clear at this point. If they do kill, Scorp is cleared, and it's Mala who looks bad, but then we either lynch or cop her.

[shaddowez]

At this point there's as good a chance of it being somebody we're not even looking at as it being zakk or Scorp. I'm thinking no lynch would be the best option with another check tonight, and hope scum decides to no kill again (or Mala jails scum).

Worst case scenario is we're one townie down and have a clear from Mala if nothing else.

[shaddowez]

First of all, how is a gunsmith a cc to a cop? There are plenty of town roles that have guns.

Secondly - if I was scum, why would I have come in today softclaiming cop to defend an easy lynch?

ika

- your vote somewhere would probably help end the Day.

I'm going with the No Lynch idea, at least for toDay.

VOTE: No Lynch

[shaddowez]

Also, singer had it right. I am odd-night. I was going to reveal it tomorrow for reasons. If you're insistent on lynching me toDay, I'll tell you though it won't matter, and I'd be of no use to town until tomorrow night anyway.

[shaddowez]

1545
1548
1549
1551
1556
1588
1591
......1609 - Huh?

Call it OMGUS, but hopping onto the middle of my wagon after doing nothing but saying we should either lynch Scorp or no lynch, along with everything else this game....I'm going back to this.

VOTE: zakk

[shaddowez]

Are you actually ascetic because that is bad

I am, which I realize makes me look incredibly scummy.

[shaddowez]

Yep, and you'll get a no result from me. It would also have made more sense for me to try framing Mala if I were ascetic scum.

[shaddowez]

The good news of this lynch is that if shadow is town, his two clears can be trusted. And we are getting a confirmed investigative out tonight as well. Mala either jails, or I get my action in. One of us does though, but that's no big deal.

Unless one of them is a godfather, which is the same dilemma we have right now. Also, is there some scum role that wouldn't have a gun, hence the no kill? If so, neither of your nor Mala's roles would actually net us anything.

Odd night is towny but you actually have him the idea before he claimed it. That's... Spoiling it.

While true,
if you peer back further.

why else had he conveniently held back one check?

Axle's got it. I picked up on you (MS) being even night in 1347. If we didn't full claim here and scum decided to target one of us, I figured if they didn't pick up on me being odd night they would target me tonight.

Let's lynch one of the not PRs and not soft innocents and see what happens either today or tonight. Ika or pistachio. Pick one.

I've heard Ika has a scum-meta of not posting much. Does anyone who's played with him more know if this fits in with that?

[shaddowez]

singer and ns - why ika?

Axle, thank you for 1643. I was trying to articulate that exact case the other day, but for some reason it wasn't coming out right.

[shaddowez]

I'd like an answer from them, but I'm not going to preclude others from answering. I know scum!Ika has meta to go off, I'm just not versed enough in his play to know if it applies here (if that's even the reason they're doing it).

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- Standard V/LA until Sunday, 9/20

[shaddowez]

Mala, can you answer Axle's question?

[shaddowez]

If I might politely suggest every one should find and read their role PM again....? I just did I am still town

I think the mod would have prodded if there were a mafia member who didn't know they were mafia...this seems like it's trying to distract from something.

If you do not submit an action before the night ends, it will count as No Action.

I know it's because of medical leaves but singer has been V/LA over a couple of our night phases, if I'm not mistaken.

[shaddowez]

Axle

- 1691, point taken.

pistachio

- Why that order? The only logical way to think ika is scum is if he targeted Scorp N3. Do you really think that was the case?

MS

- You were willing to vote scorp on D4. Why check pistachio instead of Scorp to verify not godfather?

I'd also like to hear from singer before lynching anyone.

[shaddowez]

Good game guys, had a lot of fun

[shaddowez]

Also, thanks to fro99er for running it!