Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[KarmicGuide]

The reason given doesn't make sense for a vote. Looks like she's not being truthful

It's a common approach in games to focus first on reading people you're familiar with. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't believe my explanation unless you thought the only purpose of a vote was to express suspicion, which is something that would surprise me since I thought you were a much better player than that.

Apparently I'm not a very good player at all, I definitely think I'm better than I actually am but I suck.

And yes the point of a vote should be to pressure or express suspicion. There's other ways to communicate what you were trying to do without voting.

I honestly think you didn't read the spoilers (I know I hadn't yet) and instead of owning up to it came up with something else.

Why are you spending time analyzing yourself? Inspecting yourself for tells?

VOTE: WoodyWoodpecker

[KarmicGuide]

Honesty is scummy?, here I thought lying was scummy. Things are different on this site

Why are you spending time analyzing yourself? Inspecting yourself for tells?

I haven't spent any time analyzing myself, not sure how you.jumped to that conclusion

Post #24, and then post #59 above. To me, it overall feels like you're talking about yourself a lot, instead of paying attention to other people, especially for the amount you've posted. Post #59 just feels too defensive.

For the record, I don't care that you said you think you might be a bad player. Some people are self-deprecating, some people are not. Garmr and pistachi0n's points about you maybe underselling yourself to cover a misplay later seem like a stretch, for exactly the reason Nacho said - it wouldn't work. I don't care exactly why they voted you, though. Maybe they just got the same bad gutread on you that I did.

I also think that your posts so far, about seashells, Nacho being a girl, about Demolition Man, might be intentional spam. You're trying to look like town by posting a lot, but posting a lot of nonsense doesn't help town.

[KarmicGuide]

Keep the walls to a Minimum early game please

Is it annoying to see walls of text when you already know who is mafia and who is town?

[KarmicGuide]

I also think that your posts so far, about seashells, Nacho being a girl, about Demolition Man, might be intentional spam. You're trying to look like town by posting a lot, but posting a lot of nonsense doesn't help town.

You obviously don't have a sense of humor, noted. I do however. I'm.probably going to crack jokes alot cause that's my personality.

Calling me apologizing to nacho for calling him a girl as intentional spam is kind of a reach though don't you think? If somebody insulted you, wouldn't.you want them to apologize?

I don't think these posts by me make me look town, but they don't make me look like scum either. They just make me look like me. If somebody town reads me for making jokes, they are probably a bad player or scum trying to buddy me

The apology wasn't the post I thought was spam - just to be clear on that, good on you for apologizing. It was the initial "she," which I read as an intentional mistake based on Nacho's "you know this." If you say it was unintentional, I'll give you that one, then.

The reason why it's not bad play to call out someone for making "jokes" (or spam posts, or some combination of the two), is because the town is going for progress on day 1, while the mafia is going for the appearance of progress. Posting a lot of nonsense is a good way to make yourself harder to PBPA later, makes lazy people who look at postcount in a few IRL days think you're town, and generally obfuscates what the town is trying to do. It's a valid thread to tug on, and I'm tugging on it.

The way I feel right now, you seem as nervous as someone at L2, and you're not at L2. I can tell you hate this attention. You wanted to be the carefree jokester townie who shocks everyone by turning out to be scum all along, and you're pissed at how fast that's falling apart.

[KarmicGuide]

@Karmic, what makes Woody seem nervous? Is it the frequency, the content, what?

VOTE: Nacho

Response to Radja looked strange, didn't like the threat of a vote.

It's partly a gut read, but here's what I think so far.

@zakk, what counts as not random?

If a vote is not sufficiently explained in the same post or a preceding post, or in certain cases, a subsequent post, it is considered random.

Nachomamma8 was given lenience because this standard was not fully explained, and because he explained his vote in a subsequent post.

I will add this to the ruleset directly to alleviate this issue in the future.

**The ruleset has been amended.**

But I like voting without reason. It's a great way to reaction test...

This game is gonna suck

I really don't know what the appropriate read on "this game is gonna suck" is. Maybe it's not a tell in any direction, but i would expect scum to go into game with butterflies, not town.

The reason given doesn't make sense for a vote. Looks like she's not being truthful

It's a common approach in games to focus first on reading people you're familiar with. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't believe my explanation unless you thought the only purpose of a vote was to express suspicion, which is something that would surprise me since I thought you were a much better player than that.

Apparently I'm not a very good player at all, I definitely think I'm better than I actually am but I suck.

And yes the point of a vote should be to pressure or express suspicion. There's other ways to communicate what you were trying to do without voting.

I honestly think you didn't read the spoilers (I know I hadn't yet) and instead of owning up to it came up with something else.

This is where a slight trend of Woody paying a little more attention to himself than to others starts. Sure, you could say he's looking at Nacho while also explaining himself, but...

VOTE: nacho

Oh, that does work. Thought I had to spell vote. That works

Took a while to find some games, you have a few games where I guess you played with somebody. I.will say I lol'd at the game where you posted I am Groot all game

VOTE: unvote

Votes him and then immediately unvotes him. In general, I don't like day one votes and unvotes, FoS, etc. On a seasoned person like Nacho, this is zero pressure. It's meaningless.

But seriously never try to undersell yourself

Why would that make you think I'm scum?

When I hear "why would that make you think I'm scum" I hear "so I can not slip up again."

I also think that your posts so far, about seashells, Nacho being a girl, about Demolition Man, might be intentional spam. You're trying to look like town by posting a lot, but posting a lot of nonsense doesn't help town.

You obviously don't have a sense of humor, noted. I do however. I'm.probably going to crack jokes alot cause that's my personality.

Calling me apologizing to nacho for calling him a girl as intentional spam is kind of a reach though don't you think? If somebody insulted you, wouldn't.you want them to apologize?

I don't think these posts by me make me look town, but they don't make me look like scum either. They just make me look like me. If somebody town reads me for making jokes, they are probably a bad player or scum trying to buddy me

Telling me I don't have a sense of humor was a nice present here, I think. Day 1 is a little early to lob insults at someone who put a third vote on you. This struck me as defensive. Generally regular people don't say stuff like this unless they're a little ruffled.

The reason why it's not bad play to call out someone for making "jokes" (or spam posts, or some combination of the two), is because the town is going for progress on day 1

Scum can just as easily do that too, in fact it's much easier for scum to do that cause it makes them look like they are being productive, but actually arent.

I think that's called "look at me I'm so town"

The way I feel right now, you seem as nervous as someone at L2, and you're not at L2. I can tell you hate this attention.

What makes me seem nervous? The fact that I can defend myself and continue to play the game? Or is it the fact I called you out on the fact you called me defensive when I actually haven't been at all.

How can you tell I hate the attention when I actually don't hate it?

You don't make any sense

Trying to gaslight me, saying I don't make sense, when I've been explaining my points for the most part. All this, plus the frequent double-posts. Frequent double-posts make me think people are second-guessing what they've just said. As long as he keeps saying interesting things, this seems like the best place to keep my vote.

[KarmicGuide]

Post 36 is you voting for him, post 37 is you saying that you are officially voting for him, and then post 40 is you unvoting him.

At no point in between did Nacho post.

What changed your mind?

[KarmicGuide]

Oh, you were going back and re-reading older Nacho games?

Sorry, if you've stated that before, I missed it or misunderstood. I do remember you saying you were basing something on past play, but I assumed that you had just played in the past with him.

Yeah, Nacho's playstyle is really interesting. I've played with him once before, and I remember him being a little chaotic and really fun.

Still seems like a weak reason to unvote him, but whatever. He seems town to me, but I'm getting too many strong townreads from people to know what to make out of that. Maybe I just like too many people.

[KarmicGuide]

Thor is town and Bella and Nacho are probably town.

IDK man, I just gutread for town. Nobody is ever confirmed town in my eyes, but I feel pretty good about them.

[KarmicGuide]

Let's lynch Ciara - her answers feel wonky to me and not like she's trying to assess me, but rather toss some dirt on me. Note that her last post wherein she becomes aware that she is tossing dirt...she doesn't follow it up with other questions to assess me. She just acts like she's been made aware of something and moves on and does nothing else.

The train is leaving the tracks, hop on quick.

I like the idea of day 1 Ciara lynch. IRL, I can respect putting college before mafia, and if that's what's going on, that's what's going on. But in the context of mafia, Ciara has felt lurky, and I agree that the scumhunting from her has been weak.

I'll sheep your vote. Let the pressure begin!

UNVOTE: WoodyWoodpecker I went and read a town game of yours last night, and this is basically how you played that game, too... you seem very agitated to me, but who knows what that means. I still would not be adverse to lynching you today. You've interacted with a lot of people, and you flipping scum would practically be game over.

VOTE: Ciara

[KarmicGuide]

Sorry everyone I'm really late to the party, RL has not been kind to me. It may be a little inappropriate coming so late in the game, but first, a few pleasantries! Skip over to the third paragraph/after the meta-links if you're looking for thoughts and content.

Hi Bellaphant! Good to be playing with you again. And hi to Nachomamma8 and Thor665! You don't know me, but I've been lurkreading Mafiascum games for a bit and read many of the completed past games. You guys are like legends to me, and I'm really excited to be able to play and learn from you two in this game! As a quick introduction also, I'm a newbie who's been reading and recently decided to start playing, have one completed newbie under my belt and this is my first non-newbie game. If you'd like to meta me from my previous game (VT) here's a link to the game and one to the dead thread with many of my thought processes:

Game
Dead Thread

Anyway, here's my thoughts on reading through the game. It'd be rather brief as I'm a little pressed for time, will address any concerns or questions as much as I can though! davesaz looks townie to me so far from his posting, and I'm okay with Woody and Thor665 too. Nacho feels alright to me though I'm not too sure so far.

There's a couple of things that have caught my attention, and I have questions for a few people.

@Ciara24, I dislike your entire back-and-forth discussion with Thor665 and the feel of the rest of your posts. It would be mostly a gut read, but one thing stood out to me: the part where you state his vote is a reaction test on you and proceed to try to make little of it (in my eyes) or devalue it.

I can't seem to find any pro-town value in this -

Ciara, could you explain to me why you found it important to point out that Thor665's vote on you was a reaction test?

Secondly,

Let's lynch Ciara - her answers feel wonky to me and not like she's trying to assess me, but rather toss some dirt on me. Note that her last post wherein she becomes aware that she is tossing dirt...she doesn't follow it up with other questions to assess me. She just acts like she's been made aware of something and moves on and does nothing else.

The train is leaving the tracks, hop on quick.

I like the idea of day 1 Ciara lynch. IRL, I can respect putting college before mafia, and if that's what's going on, that's what's going on. But in the context of mafia, Ciara has felt lurky, and I agree that the scumhunting from her has been weak.

I'll sheep your vote. Let the pressure begin!

UNVOTE: WoodyWoodpecker I went and read a town game of yours last night, and this is basically how you played that game, too... you seem very agitated to me, but who knows what that means. I still would not be adverse to lynching you today. You've interacted with a lot of people, and you flipping scum would practically be game over.

VOTE: Ciara

This post. I dislike it very much. It feels very opportunistic to me, and pushing lurking as a reason for voting is rather weak. You also point out that you are sheeping, but yet find it important to put another reason for sheeping - lurking.

KarmicGuide, why not vote me (who hasn't posted at all), eventi (who's posted barely anything), Radja or even Nacho (who hasn't posted in a long while) for "lurking"? I also dislike your initial interactions with Woody. Lynching him because him flipping scum would practically be game over? Why, do you think he's formed many associative tells with others and implicated the scumteam? Who do you think is scum then if he flips scum?

I think you're just setting up reasons to switch to a Woody lynch should your chosen wagon not pan out. VOTE: KarmicGuide

XD I didn't vote you for lurking because I literally forgot you existed. I remember someone asked for a Leave of Absence for memorial day, though I suppose that's Frogger, not you.

Thanks for pointing out to me that you haven't been playing, I guess?

Voting people who are totally just not playing isn't fun, anyway. Being totally MIA is different from actively lurking. If you kill someone who was barely playing on D1, and they flip VT, you have nothing to go on during D2. One of the biggest flaws in peoples' mafia games is mistaking laziness for scumminess.

Ciara seems like she's here and reading, but not doing specially great scumhunting. That (and also sheeping Thor, I thought that was implicit) is why I'm voting Ciara.

The Woody wagon (god, even the name is perfect - like those old wood-paneled station wagons? Did Woody pick his name for this pun? If so, much respect) still a good wagon. Reading his last completed town game did give me a lot of information. He was also pretty aggressive in that game, though his posts seemed to be more earnest scumhunting. His posts in this game, some of his posts have felt like a pretense of activity to me. What Thor said about Ciara "attacking, not scumhunting" applies to Woody as well.

I am totally fine with a D1 Woody lynch. I just didn't want to spend all D1 tunneling the same person. I've made my case against Woody. His counter-argument has been that I'm wrong, humorless, and can't read, so I was getting pretty tired of that. Even if Woody flips VT, I stand by him as a good lynch candidate. He's interacted with a lot of people, and offers good D2 info on Nacho, Gramr, pistachi0n, and Bellaphant.

TL;DR - I'm sheeping Thor, but it's because I agree with him, not blindly sheeping. Fine with Ciara or Woody lynch. I'm just in the mood to run somebody up to L2 and see what they have to say.

[KarmicGuide]

Woody, you keep saying you caught me in a lie. What lie is that?

[KarmicGuide]

Again with the playing dumb...

You said I voted and immediately unvoted nacho which wasn't true.

Than you act like I didn't explain why I unvoted when you mentioned that nacho hadn't posted so you didn't know why I unvoted when it was clearly posted my reasons for unvoting.

Once I pointed it out you acted like this was some new revelation and you misread/misunderstood which didn't feel genuine.

If you were trying to figure my alignment out and really didn't see my posts, you would have asked why I unvoted not just assumed and attacked. That looks like a scum motivated attack, not a town one

You voted Nacho and unvoted Nacho in the space of four posts, without Nacho posting once in between. That's weird. I asked you about it. You said you read his past games in between the two votes. I took that at more or less face value.

You know what? Face value rescinded. I'm back to thinking your vote/unvote on Nacho was wish-washy. I think you're scared of him, because he's a good player, he has a townread on you, and you want to keep things that way. The reason you want to turn my analysis of you into a "lie" is because you're afraid of people thinking too much about that vote/unvote.

[KarmicGuide]

I kinda like Dave for town for having the gumption to psa at the mod. XD

[KarmicGuide]

Ciara, that's honestly entirely fair. Looking back on the thread, you have been posting plenty. I rescind any accusations of lurking. I still am gonna sheep vote you based on thor's "attacking, not scumhunting" post.

[KarmicGuide]

Garmr, how did you interpret 71, which your 72 was replying to?

Sarcastic maybe, a bit of a loaded question through if he wanted me to take it seriously. So I answered In a way I thought karmic wouldn't expect.

I liked your answer, for that one. It told me you'd played with Thor before, which is interesting, and information I probably wouldn't have gone sleuthing for necessarily. (I'm not gonna read everyone's past games, unless things get really, really slow, or someone is at L2 and claiming or something.)

IDK if it says anything about you being town or scum, but it was information, and information is always good.

Vote: Pistachion

I've been following posts vaguely, but still working. I think that pist is probably the best bet for scum right now (along with Garmr maybe), but will provide more eloquent, confident, and accurate answers when I have just a tiny bit more time.

I shall make popcorn.

This post contains an infraction of Rule #4.

NO SPOILERS

.

Read the rules again, they're in the OP... in a spoiler.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63235

The offending post has been edited.

PSA

Spoilers are an essential part of internet etiquette, used for reducing the amount of material that needs to be downloaded on low-bandwidth connections and displayed on small screen sizes.

Authority: I've been on "the net" since before it was the InterNet
End PSA

PSA

If you're havin' problems with large load times in a text-only game which in turn affect your mobile experience in the year 2015 I feel bad for you son

I got 99 problems but waiting for my own avatar to load ain't one

End PSA

posted from my Nokia 5190

Getting a strong mod-read from zakk. His posts have been riddled with sass, which is a classic mod-tell.

[KarmicGuide]

Strongest townread--Probably KarmicGuide

I found it pretty weird that KarmicGuide didn't try to interact with me after my vote. Especially after I stated that the purpose was to cause interaction.
Setting that aside as bait that caught no fish, if I look at what he did post, it does look town to me. I wouldn't go as far as to say strong.
UNVOTE: KarmicGuide

I haven't made up my mind on Garmr yet. I don't remember him townreading me in a single game yet, so it could just be that my style rubs him the wrong way. I'm making a conscious effort to not scumread people for scumreading me, because it prevents me from seeing other scummy things. On the other hand, the case he's trying to make is the type I might try to make as scum, since it's easier to disengage by writing it off as a misunderstanding. Could go either way.

I don't see whatever it is that Thor is being scumread for.

Radja's response seemed town to me. Not a strong read but fairly clear.

Bella isn't doing much, but I don't have enough other game experience to compare to, to make an alignment call based on it.

I wanted to think of a clever response back, but one never came.

I also think that your posts so far, about seashells, Nacho being a girl, about Demolition Man, might be intentional spam. You're trying to look like town by posting a lot, but posting a lot of nonsense doesn't help town.

Do you really think making 6 nonsense posts helps scum? How?

Maybe not by itself, but add to that more posts that aren't particularly effective scumhunting (defensive posts, repeating oneself, etc) and you're really worsening the signal-to-noise ratio of Day 1. It gives the appearance of a long and fruitful day, and then somebody town gets lynched, and you suddenly find that the 30 pages of Day 1 aren't as valuable as you'd have liked.

Ok, I just finished reading the thread, and here are my thoughts so far:

1. Woody strikes me as Town, mainly because he is actively scumhunting and propelling the discussion forward without super aggressive tunnelling. That being said, I wouldn't call Karmic's "immediate unvote" argument lying. At best it's a misunderstanding; at worst it's trying to see what accusations stick. Also, I don't think Woody's [#24] is alignment indicative without other posts where he uses it as an excuse.

2. I am vaguely uncomfortable at all the posts citing previous games as reasons for reads. Meta reads are not reliable, although I understand using them when you have nothing else to go on.

3. Thor's play seems weird. First, he votes Ciara with no stated reason then attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary. Also, his blatant attempts to get Woody and Garmr to follow his lead and vote Ciara reek of scum trying to push a weak wagon.

Before I cast a vote, I would like Thor to answer this question: What was your initial reason for voting Ciara? You obviously had one (or at least claimed to have one) because you specifically told the mod to ask you for clarification if needed.

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

[KarmicGuide]

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

Meta can be used to determine someone's general playstyle but shouldn't be used by itself as proof of someone's alignment because meta can shift from game to game. I just don't like arguments along the lines of "X usually does this when of alignment Y. Therefore, X must be alignment Y." (Not that anyone here is guilty of this yet.) I would just rather analyze someone's play in the current game than try to extrapolate based on previous games.

So, how do you read Thor's attempts to gather a Ciara wagon?

Makes sense.

Maybe this is giving Thor too much credit, but I kind of was thinking that Ciara, Woody and Garmr were on the top of his scum list. So vote one, ask the other two how they feel about joining the wagon.

[KarmicGuide]

Thor, I'm scum reading your attempt to push a huge wagon on Ciara. And like Dave just said, we (probably) have 8 calendar days. I'm not feeling the danger of a no lynch yet. I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game. If a no lynch seems impending after a few more calendar days, I will join a wagon that you are not on.

It's not just a question of eight days, though.

It takes time to get someone to L2, really listen to their claim, see if anyone wants to counterclaim or call BS, etc. Then maybe run someone ELSE up to L2 and do the whole thing again...

Come on, I'm the one who hasn't played in two years, this should be obvious to y'all. I'm fine with a slow D1, if it's productive, but a no lynch is seriously bad news.

Heya Radja, what do you think of Pistachi0n?

[KarmicGuide]

@Garmr: Can you expound on why you think Karmic is scum? All I see for your reasoning is this post:

I don't like this post to say some one is lurky after only a couple of days RL is unjustified and reachy.

Also, you never really explained your scumread on Dave either, so please expound on that too.

Simple dave is a meta read and it's explain maybe you just don't have the ability to read.

I don't like the fact karmic guide was trying to portray ciara as a lurker when it had been like one day at most since ciaras last reply. That seems extremely scummy to me.

Also I find it funny people are listing me as a scum read yet no reason has ever been listed it's pretty pathetic and makes me smirk a little.

"Lurky" was apparently not a great choice of words for this group. I recant it, if I have not done so already. I felt, and still feel, that Ciara's post were not contributing much to town. Maybe I should've called it active-lurking, but I thought the point was clear enough.

Gummy asked me why I didn't vote them instead for not posting at all, and I explained that (aside from forgetting they existed) I don't typically vote people who contribute zero. It's the mod's job to prod people, not mine. Lynching the person with the absolute least number of posts is a terrible D1 policy lynch, because you learn nothing from it.

As for you, Garmr

1.) You put a 2nd vote on Woody for "underselling himself," which is a pretty nonsensical reason to vote someone. While Woody is still high on my scum list, this seemed really non-committal.

2.) You were also the one who asked for walls to be kept to a minimum early on. Scum don't want to read walls, because they know who is what. Everything in a D1 thread is either bullcrap or bad news to them, so walls are really annoying.

3.) I don't know what the whole "what do you think of nacho???" thing was, but I don't like that when Thor asked you basically the same question, you said "yes." As in, you have a valid opinion of him, but aren't sharing it yet. You did eventually elaborate by saying that you thought he was scum, changed your mind, and are mad at him for not spotting an SK in a previous game. (A ridiculous thing to be mad at someone for.) I kind of don't buy any of that. At the very least, it's flip-floppy.

To further expound on this... if you're scumhinting, you'd share your opinion of him, one way or the other. If you're hunting for Town PR's, however, and think Nacho is something, that would explain the "yes" with no follow up.

4.) The more I read over this game, it's a lot of you saying "I like this" and "I don't like this." When you do explain yourself, you do a reasonably good job, but those explanations are few and far between, and peppered with character assassination.

[KarmicGuide]

Garmr, I'm pretty sure I've given you kudos at least a couple times this game. I think you play pretty aggressively, but you play well. You're on my possible scum list, for the reasons I've listed, but you play very well.

Vote: Ciara

I think the Karmic wagon is a pile of garbage. I'm surprised I'm the only person with this opinion.

I share this opinion!

[KarmicGuide]

my main argument for Karmic is that some of her arguments and pushes seemed forced and reachy, as if she was looking for things to push people for.

aka RVS?

I'll gladly admit that I reached a little on Ciara. Thor asked for a Ciara vote, I thought about it for a sec, re-read a couple of Ciara's posts, decided there wasn't much content in them, and voted. Day 1, you reach.

I still like the vote, though. I'll probably get crucified for saying this, but Ciara has withdrawn a ton and posted even less when I put pressure on her. I won't use the "L" word again, but she's become even more passive since this wagon on her started.

Bellaphant, why do your vote and unvote posts never seem to have a comment on the person you are voting / unvoting? It's very disconcerting.

I am also curious about this. Bella seems afraid to be too verbose.

[KarmicGuide]

And are we not going to get L2 warnings in this game? Cause it looks like Ciara is at L2.

Also welcome SilverWolf, thanks for replacing in.

And good luck on your job stuff, Woody. Nothing personal about my wagon on you; I just gotta go after what I see.

[KarmicGuide]

This pretty much summarizes the reasons for the Karmic wagon:

Most of the things [Karmic] pointed to are things that either weren't true, weren't scummy, or weren't alignment indicative.

Ok I just reread from post 100 and I know Woody said Karmic lied (over and over) but I still don't see what the lie was. I believe Karmic asked, but I didnt see the answer. Are you basing your read on Karmic on your own read or Woody's?

Karmic- what are.you expecting to happen at L-2? Some say you should claim at L-1 but I'm not familiar with any protocol for L-2

I've finished my reread, and my reads haven't changed.

VOTE: ciara

ciara is now at L-1

L1 is claim-time now? Huh. I mean, I believe you, I just misremembered it as being L2. It's been a while.

[KarmicGuide]

Ah, figured it out. On MTGS, where I learned mafia back in the day, claim is at L2.

[KarmicGuide]

Regarding the Karmic wagon-I don't have a problem with it but the points are not as strong on him. The WW lie I don't give a shit about unless there was a scumslip and I don't see it. Reaching and using bad tells-not sure what is scummy about this? I've seen town do that plenty. What else is there again?

Exactly! XD

You work with what you have, D1, man. Of

course

I don't have any hard scumslips on Ciara. It's day 1, and she's disappeared.

Here's my perception of the whole crew right now.

Nacho, Thor, Dave, Gimlear = Town? I feel pretty confident that these people would be terrible D1 lynches.

Bellaphant = Seems like a good town asset, though obviously I don't love the vote on me. Probably not scum? Bad D1 lynch.

Eventi = Not much to go on, kind of seems like unlikely scum... Also feels like a smart player. Could be a great town asset with more contribution. Bad D1 lynch.

Gummy, Radja = No idea, not great D1 lynches, though, because there's just not much substance in their posts to go on for D2. Sorry you have the flu, Radja. Maybe replace out soon, if you aren't up to doing more than prod-dodging.

Garmr = IDK, I'm conflicted. If Nacho says he's probably town, I'm inclined to barn that.

Pistachi0n = I hate the word "strawman" so much. It makes me feel like I've wandered into a bad subreddit. Otherwise, IDK.

Silverwolf = If I'm viewing you as you/Woody, I felt like Woody was a bundle of nerves, was posting a lot to try and look town, was tunneling me for tunneling him, and was a great D1 lynch. I don't really know what the protocol is for people who replace in, but if I judge your "person" by WW, you're definitely someone I have my eye on. IDK what my read on you as a player is yet. For the time being at least, I would feel like kind of a dick for killing someone who seems like they're trying, in a game that is sorely in need of people who want to be here and want to play.

Ciara = Wasn't doing the best scumhunting, and has hardly posted since her wagon started.

So of that group, I count six people who feel like likely town to me, four people who I just have no idea on, for a total of ten garbage D1 lynches. Silverwolf, I'd kind of like to observe in D2 and see what happens. That leaves Ciara.

So no, I can't point to much of Ciara's content and say "that's the scumslip, that's the lie." Those posts don't exist, because Ciara has stayed clear of this thread since the wagon on her started. Maybe she's just busy, but even when she was here, she always seemed afraid to post confident opinions.

It's not an airtight wagon, no. It's a gutread, plus some supporting evidence. I think it's actually a pretty good wagon, relative to what you sometimes get on D1, and either way, it beats a no-lynch.

[KarmicGuide]

Eventi = Not much to go on, kind of seems like unlikely scum... Also feels like a smart player. Could be a great town asset with more contribution. Bad D1 lynch.

Why does eventi seem like unlikely scum to you?

When I was doing that write-up for everyone, I went back through the game and did some quick mental PBPA's on people who I didn't have strong opinions on. My gutread on Eventi had gone back and forth all game, and in reading through his posts, I didn't really find anything that stood out as sketchy.

[KarmicGuide]

I think I'd also still be okay with a Pistach lynch.
Kind of him or Gummy feels like a decent spot to find scum also, and currently I have more town vibe from Gummy (which is saying something )

I'm on board with this.

[KarmicGuide]

mod, VLA until tomorrow evening.

[KarmicGuide]

Really? I'm a town rolecop. Pista is lying and scum. No, there's no way there are two town rolecops and no way that two scum would pull a play like this. It makes no sense.

Clearly she was attracting votes, being scumread by several, and was being asked to claim and give reads. She has a result on me, so of course she's going to out it. If she's going down anyway, why not bring down a town PR with you? There's nothing townie about that. It's scum 101 and what any scum in that situation would do.

I do have a result on someone if you really want me to say who I checked and why or give my result, I can. I don't know if that would make a difference since it's clear it is either me or pista today regardless. I'm fine being lynched because it would bring down scum the next day but I would be confirmed town if you lynched pista today and scum will have to deal with me at night instead of town killing a PR.

I guess you have to look at who is more likely to be scum and go from there.

I've had a very stressful day and don't have the energy to put up a huge fight but I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. I'll be around off and on while I deal with some RL stuff as well.

Based on the way WW played, I could easily see him/you as a scum rolecop. Dude was really active for a while, despite seeming like he really didn't want to be in the spotlight... that feels like a reasonably likely scum PR to me.

This is difficult, b/c you and pistach both seem like likely scum to me. I think we gotta cook your goose, and judge pistach (and the rest of these claimed PRs) on the outcome of that.

I'll vote you after we get a votecount from a mod.

[KarmicGuide]

Hurm - does anyone else besides me favor the possibility of lynching Pistach as opposed to Silverwolf?

I'm fine with either. I trust you more than Nacho, and I'm starting to wonder if all this PR guessing is one of the ways we could still lose. It's making my head swim a little, at least.

I'll barn whatever you vote.

[KarmicGuide]

You make a lot of sense as the target.

How does that make Nacho confirmed town?

[KarmicGuide]

Because if I was targeted for a kill and, as is apparent, didn't die - what saved me if not Nacho the doc?

A possibility is that another doc saved you, and Nacho claimed doc b/c he saw an opportunity to do so. He's an experienced player. Though, IDK if it'd make sense for him to do that, as scum or as town.

Yeah, you're right, occam's razor suggests that Nacho is probably doc.

I'm ready to vote pistach or silverwolf whenever you guys want. I'm just gonna sheepvote Thor.

[KarmicGuide]

Confirming that silver is at L-1, wouldn't really cry if someone hammered.

I'm down with hammering, but I'll give Silver some time to say or do whatever they want to do at L1.

[KarmicGuide]

VOTE: Silverwolf

I'll also vote Silverwolf, just in case there's a rule against self-voting and self-hammering.

[KarmicGuide]

VT here, and jealous of all you PRs.

Pistach, whyfor?

[KarmicGuide]

So, it kind of looks like we're crushing the mafia right now, but we need to play to our outs here. What do we lose to?

Are we entertaining the idea that there might be two mafia factions?

[KarmicGuide]

So, it kind of looks like we're crushing the mafia right now, but we need to play to our outs here. What do we lose to?

Are we entertaining the idea that there might be two mafia factions?

I'm not - are you?

Feeling okay with the Evanti clear.

Scum is either playing the no kill game or is who was jailed. Let's hear who it was now that the others have claimed.

The likely scum list appears to be down to;
Whoever Dave jailed,
Bella,
One of the other claimed PRs.

@Pistach - you would get the same result on a God Father as a Goon or a VT, yes or no? (Please ask the mod if unsure)

I guess not. I've never played in a game with two scum teams. I'm just trying to think of the things we could lose to, and what we need to do to prevent that.

I assume it's really rare in the normals?

[KarmicGuide]

VT here, and jealous of all you PRs.

What prompted this claim?

Thor said "okay, let's get the claims on the table." I thought he was asking for a mass claim.

[KarmicGuide]

I'm kind of against the jailing me plan - the tl;dr is it delays us by a day. Lynching me seems to make the most sense. It's kind of due diligence after jailing me and having a no-kill night.

I see four paths possible.

1.) We lynch Bella/Radj/Gim/Gummy and they flip scum. A fantastic result, and probably the end of the game, assuming this isn't too weird of a normal.

2.) We lynch Bella/Radj/Gim/Gummy and they flip town. I'm jailed. There's a nightkill. Clears me, which is nice, but then we've lynched a townie and lost a townie just to clear one name. That seems like a step backward from our current position.

3.) We lynch Bella/Radj/Gim/Gummy and they flip town. I'm jailed. There's NO nightkill. Woo! Sounds good, right? Kill Karmic the next night, and we win. ...Except I'm Karmic, I know I'm VT, so I know that lynching me tomorrow doesn't get us anywhere. All scum has to do tonight is submit a no-kill to frame me. Scum's only way to win right now is hoping we all slowly kill each other, so I don't see why they wouldn't just submit a no-kill if I'm jailed tonight. It's as good as a kill.

4.) We lynch me today, jail someone other than me. After I'm posthumously confirmed town, you guys will be able to go after remaining scum with as much information as possible.

While I'd rather not die, lynching me just seems like the best course of action.

And regarding the Garmr/Thor Godfather/Strongman thing, I don't know. It seems unlikely? Thor has felt pretty obv!town the whole game.

[KarmicGuide]

Karmic has been silent, so I think this game will be over when we Lynch him.

As I said in my last post, lynching me seems fine. It's due diligence on town's part, if Dave jailed me last night. I'm not the self-voting type, but I'm fine with that plan.

When I flip VT, though, I'd definitely suggest looking at Dave.

[KarmicGuide]

When I flip VT, though, I'd definitely suggest looking at Dave.

Why?

Because he says he jailed me. We don't really have any hard proof that he jailed me, though. Jailer is a pretty easy role to claim, is it not?

[KarmicGuide]

anything is fine with me.
As long as we can reach a decision.

This is pretty much where I am as well. We've got this in the bag, so jailing me, lynching me, either work fine.

[KarmicGuide]

Sooo, intent to hammer?

don't hammer just no lynch -_-

I've got nothing to add after L1, just for the record. I'm on board with Nacho's plan.

Feel free to hammer if you're in a hammerin' mood.

[KarmicGuide]

I'm on board with releasing the scum PT, sure.

Man, I played badly... day 1, I kinda wanted to bus woody/silver. I didn't want to do it unnaturally, but given the opportunity, I wanted to wagon him. That got really shaky when Ciara became the other wagon... what a rough spot to be in.

Day 2, I was going to ignore Silver, but the wagon on him was going too strong. I just wanted to look town. I wasn't really thinking about PRs at all, just 100% about looking okay in chat.

Day 3, once I found out I'd been jailed, that was GG. Sorry if I gave up a little early there... but once I saw that the kill (on thor) hadn't gone through, I figured I was either that night or the next night's lynch.

And yeah, seriously good job Dave. That jail was some real MVP work right there.

[KarmicGuide]

692 was the pivotal moment. I chose my N2 JK based on that post.

I am a little surprised by this, but maybe that's my inexperience. I can see how this would've looked scummy, in hindsight - it's basically going for free town points at no risk, voting for someone who just self-hammered.

...But, I literally didn't know if self-voting was allowed. Between formerly playing on two sites with slightly different rules, and not having played at all in like two years, I just didn't know. It didn't seem like something that should be allowed?

Lesson learned for the future - people can self-vote, and don't put someone a L-minus-1.

[KarmicGuide]

We got really good play from the other PR's. I thought you did pretty well looking like town resigned to being lynched as the obvious choice.

Lol thanks! In my head I was just like, "whelp, how do I make this look like it isn't a prod-dodge... wish the town would wrap things up already."

[KarmicGuide]

In case silver doesn't feel like releasing the whole scum-chat, here are the major bullet points.

Night 0 - Chitchat

Night 1 - ...Whelp! This is rough. We gotta break up the obvtown block. Also, be on the lookout for Dave. Silver attempted a nightkill on Thor, and rolecopped Dave.

Night 2 - If at first, you don't succeed... I submitted a nightkill on Thor.

When you didn't die for the second time, instead of immediately thinking, "oh, I was probably jailed," I thought to myself, "is Thor bulletproof!?? Oh, that would be the worst thing ever..."

[KarmicGuide]

...But, I literally didn't know if self-voting was allowed. Between formerly playing on two sites with slightly different rules, and not having played at all in like two years, I just didn't know. It didn't seem like something that should be allowed?

Lesson learned for the future - people can self-vote, and don't put someone a L-minus-1.

Self-hammering as scum is perfectly acceptable. You should never self vote as town.

Ah, fair. Noted!

And yeah, I PMed zakk.

[KarmicGuide]

Someonefeellikemoddingagamewhereweallhavesuperannoyingtypinghabitslikenotbeingallowedtousespaces?I'dprobablyplaythatgame.

[KarmicGuide]

@Silver - You had a blocker, a rolecop of your own, and the spoiler role that shouldn't even exist, the GF.
I am not saying the game is not townsided - but it is not 'oh dear gawd' town sided by any stretch of the imagination.
I think you just didn't end up with the right players in the slots.

@Garmr - agreed, would have totally mauled him without that.

Right, but to Silver's point... there are only three of us, and your PRs make you hard to kill. You guys lose one PR, it's not the end of the world, but once we lost even one scum, it really seemed like there was no coming back.

I had fun, and I'm not adverse to playing in a townsided game as scum. Someone has to be the guinea pig, after all. You guys played very well, I absolutely won't deny that.

[KarmicGuide]

Fair enough, Silver! And yeah, maybe I should've shot Nacho. I felt like I could maybe pass as town to Nacho for longer than Thor, but it was a real toss-up.

Can I get some other opinions on what Garmr is saying? Like... good job on your read I guess, but I kind of feel like you were right about me for the wrong reasons. I put a little pressure on you, but nothing like the pressure I put on Ciara or WW. I don't recall trying to twist any words of yours.

I'm interested to know what others think - how dangerous is it to try and make someone sweat over their choice of words a little? Isn't that a big part of mafia, as scum or town?

I'd be especially greatful if any of the more seasoned folk want to weigh in on how I could improve my play.

[KarmicGuide]

Also, was I buddying Eventi? I like Eventi. Eventi appears to be a Devo fan, and Devo rocks.

[KarmicGuide]

It's astonishing how little of this game I remember, after just a few days.

[KarmicGuide]

Also, was I buddying Eventi? I like Eventi. Eventi appears to be a Devo fan, and Devo rocks.

Eventi = Not much to go on, kind of seems like unlikely scum... Also feels like a smart player. Could be a great town asset with more contribution. Bad D1 lynch.

This is what I consider buddying a empty post calling him smart and a great assist but with no reasoning why he is. Also considering at that point he didn't post anything of substance. When you got questioned hard for it by multiple people eventi pretty much got in the way of you interrogation which is made this line of reasoning fizzle out because he couldn't think before he posted. So to some extent it worked.

Ah, yeah. Not my intention. I really did think Eventi played well - not a lot of posts, but always to the point.

My mass-read posts always get me in trouble - even as town. I should stop doing them.

[KarmicGuide]

My mass-read posts always get me in trouble - even as town. I should stop doing them.

I pretty much never do them, for somewhat similar reasons. Firstly, I think they're vaguely meaningless, secondly,

whenever you're town and don't give a hang and have little wishy washy slot that you call as a different value of scum/town because, functionally, you're being forced to give some sort of value call to someone that you otherwise wouldn't even mention all of a sudden people point to your read from 100 posts back that's different and start caterwauling that you're scum.

I don't even know why people like them, honestly.

Bolded mine. This has happened to me so much.

I'm swearing off mass-reads.

[KarmicGuide]

So, after thinking about this setup for a while... my thoughts are, it seems solid to run again in the future, at least for further testing.

My impressions, from this one game, is that it's extremely difficult, practically impossible, for the scum to recover from having their Roleblocker lynched day 1. However... it's a Mini, so an important scum PR getting lynched day 1 -should- be a huge swing. Right? At least, that's how I feel at the moment. It's a setup that falls apart for scum as scum loses PRs, but in a 10:3, that's probably how things should be.

[KarmicGuide]

Well, I'm no expert on this but zakk did say the game was only reviewed for Normalcy and not balance.

But you make decent points Thor and I feel slightly less whiny than I did in dead chat-LOL.

Speaking of, is dead chat going to get released?

It's perfectly okay if you guys shit-talked me a bunch in there; I'd completely understand, since I was on your wagons. I'd still love to read it! XD

[KarmicGuide]

I slightly disagree about N2 killing Nacho.

Thor and Nacho are both very strong players when they're town, but my gut told me that bringing people around to scum!nacho was possible. In the end, it wasn't possible, not with all the PRs that can definitively look at people. But I didn't see any way to ever turn on Thor in the daytime - he had to be a nightkiill eventually.

[KarmicGuide]

Ah, yeah. ...Good point. I don't factor PRs into my current play enough.

[KarmicGuide]

Lol even after the game you're looking for scumreads? Man, I wasn't going to say anything, but this is like the tenth time, at least, that you've patted yourself on the back in this thread. It's getting old, man. Look around, there are other experienced players here, and none of them are doing the same.

Re:Eventi. He was anemic in post-count (especially at the time I said that), but decent in post quality, and a potentially strong adversary.

[KarmicGuide]

No lynching just delays the game for no reason.

Too bad there's not a way to just concede the game.

Lol, Silverwolf! Believe me, I thought about it. XD

I was really tempted to at least self-hammer to end the game... but I decided against it. I was gonna make those guys take it all the way home.