Mini Normal 1716 - Flavourless Mafia - [Game Over]

[ChannelDelibird]

Hello, everyone! Will be reading the thread and summing up thoughts this evening.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hey CDB! I think I remember playing with you from a while back. Glad you could join us.

Indeed. Counterclaimed me as a mason in Patrick's Sicilian Mafia, if I remember correctly. I think it's just you with whom I've played before, of the living players. Nice to see a familiar face.

[ChannelDelibird]

Town:

EV, Cavane

Made almost no impression on me:

Vedith, TheWorst

Scummy:

Kyubey, Muffin, Anen, CMM, Liger

Ugh. I don't have anything like the number of townreads that I would normally expect for this point in a game. I wasn't even happy with townreading Banana as I read through even though I knew he was flipped town.

Obviously not all of the people listed above can be scum but that's just to give you an idea of how my reactions have fallen. On some players I have caveats, some maybe-this maybe-that, but I've disliked more than I've liked from all five.

Spoiler: Townreads on EV and Cavane

So let's start with the things that feel simple to me: EV is my strongest townread. It started here, which feels satisfyingly open in a way that posts like that often really don't. There's also this, where EV suspects Bacde for a very similar (but more roughly articulated) reason as one of those behind my suspicion of Kyubey (more on that later) - similar reasoning usually says to me that someone is in the same mindset as me, so EV strikes me as town. The primary reason, though, is that I'm pretty sure that this unguarded-looking comment shows that, if the mafia in this game had pregame chat, EV is no such mafia. How to approach a game with an SK is sure to be at the top of the list for mafia pregame chat; I doubt very much that mafia would be able to fake lack of knowledge about the setup. That's making an assumption about pregame chat but I can't remember the last game that I saw where mafia

couldn't

talk in pregame, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume. It also doesn't rule out SK but other EV posts (and scumminess elsewhere) make me happy to not worry about that.

Cavane townread is partly based on the fact that a buncha people treated him weirdly and also I thought completely the opposite that Bacde did of this; I think scum is likelier to join the chorus by criticising "defensiveness" rather than say something different like "aggro". It tells me that Cavane has been reading Bacde separately and evaluating his play for himself rather than it being a case of him deciding whether or not (or how) to join the wagon.

Spoiler: Kyubey is scum

I've been rubbed up the wrong way by Kyubey for a long time. His second vote looked like it was intended to get a wagon started so that the game could progress, but he came off it too quickly and this looks like he's just farting around rather than wanting to get to scumhunting. But then he comes back later to defend his second vote (the one which he abandoned) and it's super weird - if the vote was rooted in something that might be alignment-indicative, why lather it in unseriousness? Accusing someone of being too eager to start a bandwagon when you voted for three people in about a nanosecond? That seems like something he's saying after the fact rather than a real thought process that he had at the time. I don't buy it.

Kyubey expressed suspicion of Bacde for some time but only now is he "starting to think he's scum". NOPE. That's disingenuous language meant to persuade others to vote with him. It's faked. Not having it.

Talking about "before I return to suspecting him" is NOT TOWN LANGUAGE. That's the kind of way in which scum talk about tactics, about maintaining their image and pushing at the right times. It reduces suspicion to artificiality, which is not how town thinks.

Kyubey is definitely my top scumread. I'd make bets.

Spoiler: Muffin is scum

This is the kind of post that scum like to make. It stalls for time despite having done little already and asks questions that don't promise useful answers (people are already asking Bacde about this, for example, and do you really expect anything that wasn't said at the time?).

Why has nobody FLIPPED OUT ABOUT THIS? What kind of town flags up what they think might be a power role trying to stay hidden? And nobody's asking questions after Bacde, who was heavily suspected for most of Day 1, died last night and flipped as a power role? A post like this has NO town benefit but it helps the scum by flagging up possible kill targets in the event of EM being lynched/replaced/whatever. It betrays an interest in power-role hunting that town DO NOT have.

Here is Muffin coasting on the gamestate instead of doing something about it and here is him saying something that's incredibly rich given that he's spent most of the pissing contest chewing popcorn on the sidelines? When is Muffin actually going to do anything about "lynching some scummy motherfuckers"?

Spoiler: Not sure about Anen; SK?

Anen thinks that Cavane's vote on Bacde is cause for concern but votes Bacde in the same post: nonono. If you think Cavane's relationship to the wagon is a scummy one in that way then it strongly implies that Bacde is town. This feels like Anen trying to have his cake and eat it too; it's not a good look.

And, like, that's kind of all that he did on Day 1. And then he has the temerity to come in and be all "you'd better not mislynch someone again"? Incredibly rich from someone who was almost entirely anonymous.

However, I feel it's significant that Muffin unvotes almost immediately after Anen again stresses the quicklynch thing again. If Muffin is scum, which I think that he is, then it strikes me as highly unlikely that Anen is his buddy as the unvote is the kind of skittish reaction that scum have when they think that they're starting to worry the town, indicating that Muffin considers Anen as likely town, even though SK is technically possible. But yeah, I'm super weirded out by that one Day 1 post and the lack of basically all the others from Anen, so I think that a playing-it-quiet SK is entirely plausible here.

Spoiler: ConManMick

Jesus Christ, man. I don't think that he's done anything of substance at all. Not helping town one bit.

Spoiler: Liger may be scum

Not entirely sure about Liger because I've at least liked the volume that has gone into his posts when he's made them, but often the content has me concerned. I was first put off by his entry into the game, which is written extremely robotically. If it's meant to be serious (which, judging by the rest of his posts, I think it is), then it feels really awkward and self-conscious, which I associate with scum more than town.

Here he thinks that CMM is a "town buffoon" but lists him as "null-scum"? Whuh? That doesn't scan.

He seems to be playing both sides of the Cavane wagon in the series of posts beginning here. I also find it weird that someone with a join date of roughly two weeks ago is making sweeping statements about trends in mafia behaviour. Is Liger an alt?

This read is weaker than the others and probably the first that I'd drop but also the first one to which I'd come back if I were wrong about Kyubey or Muffin.

tl;dr

Kyubey and Muffin are scum. Think that Anen might be the SK but not strongly enough to go SK-hunting specifically; I think in this situation our top priority should be to nail scum of any kind, and my read is stronger on the other two. We will likely need the SK to do some of our work for us after our poor start to this game.

VOTE: Kyubey

[ChannelDelibird]

Well, that's weird. Why is the only person directly engaging with the replacement's catch-up and reads the person he's voting for, saying only "well, it would get in the way if I defended myself"? I can't play this game by myself, guys.

[ChannelDelibird]

Obviously I can sympathise with votes on Mick. It's just that useless lurking is not behaviour totally limited to scum, while some of Kyubey and Muffin's posts are suuuuuper scummy.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod: Are people being prodded?

Anen, how could you possibly think that creating a wagon on scratch on one of the only people to have posted in the last few days would 'get things moving'?

[ChannelDelibird]

The setup is confirmed 3:1:9 as per post #1.

[ChannelDelibird]

Is there any chance

like, any at all

that somebody could engage with my reads

I feel like the

very least

that should be happening right now is people telling me whether or not they agree with me on the things I mentioned in my catchup. That's the bare minimum. Why do I feel like the only person interested in winning?

[ChannelDelibird]

Anen's last few posts are dreadful. I'd pretty happily lynch any of {Performer, Muffen, Anen}. So let's make one of those happen.

UNVOTE: Performer
VOTE: Aneninen

[ChannelDelibird]

Ugggggghhghghghgh

I am more tempted than I ordinarily would be to demand that a partner substantiate your story, but it probably isn't worth it right now.

The deadline's on pause so we aren't currently in a huge rush. Can we

please

lynch Performer/Kyubey or Muffin? Please?

UNVOTE: Aneninen
VOTE: Muffin

[ChannelDelibird]

Why would you not put the Dear Partner section in your Mason thread?

Oh, OK, I guess Vedith is scum with daytalk. Alright, then.

UNVOTE: Muffin
VOTE: Vedith

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't see why anyone would make that post if they don't have a private topic that's open at Day. If you don't have a PT, why would you be certain that Anen

could

have posted it in one?

[ChannelDelibird]

While I've been on here, with completed games and a few I've looked through;

I've never had/seen a Mason thread that is phase only talking.
I've only had/seen 1 game with scum talking thread

Hmmm. Failure to consider experiences beyond one's own isn't a scumtell so this is plausible but I am pretty skeeved out. It fits the template of 'mafia thinks he's caught the SK in a lie' as much as it does 'town makes dangerous assumption'.

But I can see it going either way, which is more than I can say of Muffin and Performer.

UNVOTE: Vedith
VOTE: Muffin

PEDIT: That's a bad reason for not buying Anen's claim, though. The increased proportion of scum:town and ability to town to be whittled down more quickly in this game makes confirmable townies a potentially very important asset, and makes more town power than usual more likely than not. I'm not completely sold on Anen as a mason but I could see masons in this game.

[ChannelDelibird]

Went for Muffin over Performer purely due to current activity levels. Would lynch either in an instant.

[ChannelDelibird]

Then fucking

do something

and go for one of them (hint: Muffin).

[ChannelDelibird]

This really is one of the most depressing games in which I've ever played. Why are 90% of you here, if you have no interest in actually playing?

[ChannelDelibird]

RC, you know that I'm not completely against suspecting Vedith, but could we please not punish someone for adding some momentum to a wagon on very likely scum?

I want Muffin dead as an actual muffin and I want it a week ago.

[ChannelDelibird]

This is me acknowledging 453; I haven't read it properly and I can't be arsed to do it right now because I've already read a bunch of game pages today and I can't summon the energy right now to reevaluate one of the only goddamn townreads that this game has given me with the open mind that it requires. I'll do it tomorrow, or maybe later tonight if I feel more up for it after dinner.

[ChannelDelibird]

This one just completely drifted off my radar due to lack of investment when I was actually trying to make things happen in this game. Aiming to read up during work today.

[ChannelDelibird]

Inanity replaced muffin and outed as anen's mason partner.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, Performer is Kyubey's slot? I've really lost track of who's replaced whom but, if Muffinslot is a claimed mason, then I absolutely 100% definitively want to lynch Kyubeyslot.

UNVOTE: Inanity
VOTE: Performer

[ChannelDelibird]

I wish Performer had been mafia. Today would have been much easier.

I need to do a reread probably, so that I'm back in the groove of knowing who's in which slot and with the extra hindsight of mason knowledge. Coming into the Day, the only things of which I'm really confident is that I'm not touching Aneninen, and the closest thing that I have to a held-over read is Cavane town.

Also HEY WE'RE IN MYLO MAYBE SLOW DOWN WITH YOUR VOTES THERE COWBOYS

[ChannelDelibird]

If you'd been in this game for as long as I have (because apparently I count as a veteran now) you wouldn't be complaining about how quickly we lynched the obvscum.

[ChannelDelibird]

I haven't read much of Fuzzy because I got distracted late in the day and EV was one of my only townreads earlier. I'm definitely not jumping on that wagon right now.

[ChannelDelibird]

I've been behind on my playing commitments (not just here) for a couple of days. Getting caught up when work quietens down later today.

[ChannelDelibird]

Honestly I keep forgetting about this game. Catching up again tonight.

[ChannelDelibird]

Kihihihihihi~

honestly with a 2013 join date I'd be thankful that this is the first time that you've seen this happening to me. Activity fluctuates every few months. Really doesn't have any alignment indication but feel free to wiki me if you want to confirm that

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, it has, I don't think I'm denying that. I don't forget things into which I'm incredibly invested.

In other news, you'll be shocked to learn that I didn't actually get around to that read tonight. So here's me drawing a line: if you haven't seen a proper catch up from me by 7pm my time tomorrow (that's BST), you have my permission to lynch me.

[ChannelDelibird]

CdB
How do I know you are not just lurking scum?

You don't; that's not what I'm saying. It's that patterns of sporadic activity every now and then are not alignment indicative from me (it happens as both town and scum) so it would be weird to scumread me

because

of said lack of activity. I don't remember like anything you've said about my behaviour otherwise in this game so if you have a read based on any of that, knock yourself out.

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't get the Vedith vote on CMC. I don't why he saw Mick as either the SK or scum yesterday and why he is scum reading Mick today.

This is weird as balls, you don't think it makes sense that someone might be suspicious of a slot that has lurked for

the entire game

?

[ChannelDelibird]

Tempted to say Fuzzy+Mick are likely partners right around page 25/26 but RC's deathtunnel on Fuzzy is the only thing that really gives me pause about that.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod:

Could you please update the first post with replacements and deaths?

[ChannelDelibird]

That catboi is happy to let his vote wander around quite so much as it is, even with activity this low, suggests town to me; scum are more likely to stick to a first choice and try to let the town collapse in on either what they want or a no lynch.

[ChannelDelibird]

btw I'm posting quickly rather than doing a big catch-up because I'm in the middle of organising some afternoon/evening plans and I'm probably going to be leaving soon/not back before my 7pm deadline so this is what you're getting now. I'll finish these thoughts before bed, though, but my arbitrary deadline is biting me in the arse a bit. Don't actually lynch me kthx

[ChannelDelibird]

Gonna try to push through to get up to speed tonight guys but reeeeally not feeling it right now. Hopefully after dinner I'll have more energy.

[ChannelDelibird]

The first thing in this game that makes me think that Cavane might be scum is that, with one town vote (mine) not really doing anything Today, scum haven't nudged towards a wagon of their preference. This feels like a scenario in which scum could really stranglehold things on a town wagon but that's not happened even with so little time to deadline.

[ChannelDelibird]

No lynch achieves nothing; we have a confirmed mason. But then Anen's sitting on a solo wagon so maybe we don't lose much.

[ChannelDelibird]

Judging purely on the vote count, it might even be that Fuzzy and Mario are both scum; that would explain scum's lack of ability to push elsewhere once they've entrenched themselves, each one looking for credit on Day 4 after a bus.

[ChannelDelibird]

I coloured up the vote counts to see if it would help. I wish we had a mafia flip but this is all we can get. I figure the Day 1 stuff must have something useful in it somewhere:

Spoiler: Day 1

Bacde

(3):

Kyubey The Kid

, Liger_Zero, Kaiser B

Cavane (1):

Aneninen

EverydayMuffin

(1):

BananaCucho

Aneninen

(1):

Duppin

Guyett

(1):

Evvenomous

Not Voting (6):

Guyett

, ConManMick,

EverydayMuffin

,

Bacde

, TheWorst, Cavane

Bacde

(3):

Cavane, KaiserB, Liger_Zero

Guyett

(3):

EverydayMuffin

, Evvenomous,

Kyubey The Kid

Cavane (1):

Aneninen

ConManMick (1):

TheWorst

Aneninen

(1):

Duppin

EverydayMuffin

(1):

Bacde

Bacde

(1):

BananaCucho

Kyubey The Kid

(1):

ConManMick

Not Voting (1):

Guyett

.

Bacde

(3):

, KaiserB, Liger_Zero,

Aneninen

Guyett

(3):

EverydayMuffin

, Evvenomous, Cavane

Cavane (3):

BananaCucho

,

Guyett

,

Duppin

ConManMick (1):

TheWorst

Kyubey The Kid

(1):

ConManMick

EverydayMuffin

(1):

Bacde

Not Voting (1):

Kyubey The Kid

Bacde

(5):

KaiserB, Liger_Zero,

Aneninen

,

Kyubey The Kid

, Evvenomous

(L-2)

KaiserB (2):

Bacde, BananaCucho

Cavane (2):

Guyett

,

Duppin

Guyett

(1):

Cavane

ConManMick (1):

TheWorst

Kyubey The Kid

(1):

ConManMick

Not Voting (1):

EverydayMuffin

Bacde

(3):

KaiserB,

Aneninen

, Evvenomous,

BananaCucho

(3):

Guyett

,

Kyubey The Kid

,

EverydayMuffin

Cavane (2):

,

Duppin

, Liger_Zero

KaiserB (1):

Bacde

Guyett

(1):

Cavane

Kyubey The Kid

(1):

ConManMick

Not Voting (2):

BananaCucho

, The Worst

BananaCucho

(LYNCH):

Guyett

,

Kyubey The Kid

,

EverydayMuffin

, Evvenomous, Liger_Zero, Cavane, ConManMick

Bacde

(2):

KaiserB,

Aneninen

Cavane (1):

Duppin

KaiserB (1):

Bacde

Not Voting (2):

BananaCucho

, TheWorst

last two vote counts were corrected because the mod counted TheWorst's unvote but did not put him back among 'not voting'

Spoiler: Day 2

ConManMick (4):

Vedith,

Kyubey The Kid

,

EverydayMuffin

, Evvenomous

Not Voting (6):

Cavane, ConManMick,

Aneninen

, TheWorst, Liger_Zero,

Duppin

ConManMick (4):

Vedith,

Kyubey The Kid

, Cavane, Evvenomous
Vedith (1):

Aneninen

Kyubey The Kid

(1):

ChannelBird

Not Voting (4):

EverydayMuffin

, ConManMick, TheWorst, Liger_Zero

ConManMick (4):

Vedith,

Performer

, Cavane, Evvenomous

Aneninen

(2):

RadiantCowbells,

ChannelDelibird

Vedith (1):

Aneninen

Not Voting (3):

EverydayMuffin

, ConManMick, Liger_Zero

ConManMick (4):

Vedith,

Performer

, Cavane, Evvenomous

EverydayMuffin

(3):

ChannelDelibird

, RadiantCowbells, ConManMick

Vedith (1):

Aneninen

Not Voting (2):

EverydayMuffin

, Liger_Zero

Inanity

(4):

ChannelDelibird

, ConManMick, Vedith,

Performer

Cavane (2):

Catboi,

Inanity

ConManMick (1):

Cavane

Evvenomous (1):

RadiantCowbells

Vedith (1):

Aneninen

Not Voting (1):

Evvenomous

Performer

(4):

Inanity

, RadiantCowbells,

ChannelDelibird

, Cavane

RadiantCowbells(1):

TheFuzzyLogic99

Inanity

(1):

ConManMick

Cavane (1):

Aneninen

TheFuzzyLogic99 (1):

Performer

Not Voting (2):

Vedith, Catboi

Performer

(4):

Inanity

, RadiantCowbells,

ChannelDelibird

, Cavane, Vedith, Catboi

RadiantCowbells(1):

TheFuzzyLogic99

Inanity

(1):

ConManMick

Cavane (1):

Aneninen

TheFuzzyLogic99 (1):

Performer

Not Voting (0):

none

Not as many conclusions that we can take as we would with a scumflip but it does make me think the following:

The odds say that:
Scum pressured Bacde. Did KaiserB/Liger/EVvenomous know that he was town?
Scum piled onto the Banana lynch late. Did EVvenomous/Liger/Cavane/Mick know that he was town?

Why did Inanity die over Aneninen? This isn't really inspired by how the vote counts look so much as I remembered that scum had to choose which mason died, and that could be useful.

[ChannelDelibird]

#work so won't be able to finish these thoughts until later tonight but I'll look to answer those questions as best as I can when I'm back

[ChannelDelibird]

What the actual fuck is that, Mario?

[ChannelDelibird]

What did you expect to achieve by going fuzzy->vedith->fuzzy within a minute? Why not just vote one and say 'the other is a buddy'?

[ChannelDelibird]

Kind of unclear whether this messy massclaim is happening properly, but I think we ought to just get everything out. I'm a VT.

Neighbouriser definitely seems more likely to be town than scum in this setup, especially with the lack of claims elsewhere, though I guess it's not completely out of the question. Still, not touching Dier.

Skeeved out by Mario Today.

[ChannelDelibird]

Means they weren't performing the kill, but that's it.

Town wouldn't know that for certain.

[ChannelDelibird]

I should have spent my evening reading this game instead of watching Spectre. I regret this decision on almost every level. Catching up.

[ChannelDelibird]

VOTE: Vedith

That I don't regret.

[ChannelDelibird]

obvious scumbuddy is obvious

[ChannelDelibird]

Well done for pulling that through, RC.