Mini 1733: Jurassic Monkey - game over

[Wanderer-nl]

***

1) Is anyone in a non-American time zone, or for other reasons posts in odd hours?
2) Is anyone here brand new or otherwise unfamiliar with how the game is played here at mafiascum.net?
3) What kind of level of activity should we expect from you?

***

k
1 yes, I'm gmt +1
2 not me
3 not a lot currently, sadly a good friend of mine passed away couple days ago so I need a little time to process, I hope to pick up by the end of the week. I'll be v/la wednesday and likely thursday because of the cremation. Don't treat me any different because of this, I can still play, I would replace out if I couldn't.


I like how RVS is over so soon, getting down to business.
garmr: why did you out the IC?
Firebringer being serious is pinging me a little because I'm used to him joking around a lot. Even when RVS is over.
Diego's vote on ICE feels off.
In response to Archmage's 24: ICE was pretty clear in why he thought Firebringer was town and I feel you're making it look worse than it really was.

[Wanderer-nl]

I checked for that and didn't see anything. *sigh* I can't read. Was that there the whole time or editted in later? Because I don't remember reading it when I read the modposts..
And lol, didn't expect you to remember that. But you weren't a cop and I wasn't scum so your question is moot.

[Wanderer-nl]

"Precedence of the unvote"? Could you clarify that?

I'd like to know this too.

@ICE: You call 3 scumreads but you're still voting garmr. Are you still behind this vote? Do you plan on changing it soon to reflect your scumreads better? 101 feels like town-frustration to me, 103 takes a bit away from that. Ofc players are gonna push each others buttons. It's one way of scumhunting and the way people respond can be more telling than the actual words they use.

70 looks more like a town-Firebringer to me, and also his posts after that.

I'm really not liking Archmage. Pops in here and there with newb-questions and also not providing content. I also have a hard time believing he never ran into terms like AtE in his previous games, but I'm too lazy to actually check that.

I don't know how to feel about Diego's last post. I don't agree, but I can believe he sees it that way. What my issue is with it mostly is that he doesn't respond to anything else that's happened so far and just seems to be tunnelling ICE. I think town is more likely to tunnel, I definitely want to see more from Diego.
Diego, do you have more reads besides ICE? Have you developed townreads?

VOTE: Archmage

[Wanderer-nl]

Uck. I cause more problems than good in real life, why should it be any different anywhere else?

Hey now don't be like that. I already got the monopoly on depression overhere. (also *hugs*)

I'm getting the same feeling about your readslist as some of the others. It looks like a lot but in the end it isn't really going anywhere.

I missed a question of [ICE], post #87 "@Archmage: what do you plan to do to start gaining reads of people? You seem to be trying VERY hard to not have any right now."

Response: I really don't have a plan walking into this. I'm a slow person, thick-headed and meaningless. I don't like condemning people without feeling like I have a reason.

That's really easy to say if you don't want to make your reads more definite. You have some ideas in your readslist at least, if you're town what can you do to make your thoughts/ideas stronger? Right now it feels like you're trying to avoid confrontation. Is that something you do as either alignment?


TIP: Select the text you want to quote, then hit the 'quote' button, and the replybox will only hold the text you selected. Even easier than having to snip. You can ctrl-c and ctrl-v to get all the quotes in one post eventually. And use preview to make sure it's all nice and decent.
ICE: can we now stop worrying about the quotings?

[Wanderer-nl]

Hey Wanderer what you thinking of everyone so far?

I'm glad nobody is hyper-active, that's for sure. Though some people would look better if they picked up on theirs, yours truly included.
Not a lot has changed since my 120 and I'm not ready yet to go over the entire playerlist for reads. Still liking you for town, ICE is doing ok as well, and so far I like where All Alone is going and I know their style is to only post when they have something to say, which I like, but I would like for them to post more as well.
Obvously I'm scumreading Archmage right now, and Diego isn't looking all too fresh either. Everybody else is either null or slipped my mind.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't know, ICE seems odd to me no matter how I look at it.
He is try hard town, but that doesn't mean he is town.

Does it mean he is scum then? Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

@Archmage: you seem to have a pretty clear opinion of who you want to vote. Why didn't you make an actual vote?

[Wanderer-nl]

Just as an fyi: I'm about to head out to a cremation and after that I'm gonna get drunk and stoned. No idea how things will go but it could be a while before I get back. Also, I apologize in advance for any drunk spamming, I can't promise anything but I'll try my best to not.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm back. Thanks. It was beautiful. Still sad but was able to make peace. Hundreds of people came, we didn't fit in the room even.

On Davsto: his case and vote on ICE were bad. But I don't really see much issues with his vote on Archmage because Archmage did hold his vote for a while. Just that he voted ICE on page 1 stuff without analysis of later posts makes him look bad enough. In my experience Davsto is always hard to read and looking a little scummy. I agree he needs to start posting content, I do think that if he's scum he would maybe try harder to make reads to prevent getting lynched and I don't see him doing that.

Archmage: Not sure what to think here. To me he still doesn't feel too involved. He had a scumread on Davsto but not much other reads and he's not really contributed to other discussions in this thread except when he was specifically asked. In 204 Archmage tells us that he doesn't want to vote Davsto because he wants him to have a chance to respond, Davsto never responded to Archmage's case, and Archmage never looked to engage with Davsto other than his 204. Now a wagon on Davsto started and he's ready to vote. I also didn't like his attack at ICE in 226.
Archmage: what's your read on ICE currently?

Mario, Davsto is hard to read for me as well but don't you at least have some sort of thoughts on what he's been doing so far this game? Right now you seem to be avoiding saying anything about him at all and that's not really helping. Also, you really think Garmr and Firerbinger are scumbuddies?

Everyone I didn't mention is either town or null. I plan to reread later to try and sort the nulls more.

[Wanderer-nl]

Just went over Pistachon's iso and there's indeed hardly anything there. I agree with All Alone on this one, she's not doing anything to progress the game, her scumread on Mario is lazy and hypocritical and she's not doing anything to convince the rest of us. And also there's a huge lack of taking part in discussions here. However, Pistachion also feels like an easy scumread and the fact that Archmage's wagon never really took off make me want to keep my vote on Archmage.

Pistachion: what are your reads of Davsto and Archmage?

[Wanderer-nl]

Or maybe it could be the truth that I'm terrible at the game. After all, being town and have everyone think you're scum when you do generally means that you suck.

Thing is that we don't know whether you are town or scum, right now only you do. It's up to you to convince us you're town by scumhunting and posting reads. You're not doing that. You are convincing us that you are bad at this game and therefor town. And your sole read on Davsto that has been the same for ages isn't nearly enough.

[Wanderer-nl]

Townreads are good.



so is alcohol.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Syndesis: I'm around here a little longer than you have and I played a lot more games than you have. I do understand your scepticism towards early townblocs, but here's the thing: some people are a lot easier to read than others. Some people obvtown themselves early on in a game and other people know what to look for in some players to read them as either town or scum. Some people you meet once a year, others you meet about just every other game you're in (hi Firebringer, Mario and Davsto) It's all about timing, timezone and what sort of game you're looking for to play. I've gotten to know a certain amount of players very well in my short time here and that makes it easier for me to read them.

[Wanderer-nl]

I've been thinking that myself ever since pistache jumped the archmage-wagon. Not sure, it could be, but I'd rather see a flip first before making definite associations. And I feel stronger about Archmage being scum than pistache, so....

[Wanderer-nl]

Hi Firebringer! I was a witch tonight! Lost my hat but then another girl seemed so happy with it so I'm ok. I also still have my wig. Too bad my house-spider had other plans though..
Sup with you?

@Syndesis: sorry, I don't want to sound *I dunno what word it is I'm looking for but I mean teaching in some sort of not too positive way* anyways, sorry, my filter is down a bit because wine and stuff. I appreciate your input and all I wanted to say really was that I could see where you were coming from.

[Wanderer-nl]

What scary movies?
What's your favourite?

[Wanderer-nl]

Ah it's non-game related, you're welcome to weigh in. I love scary movies! First one I saw in bits was the Shining (Cubricks version) and for real first one was nightmare on elm street. I thought all the sequesl were kind of the same thing again. I liked Alien as well, it was really scary! But I was young when I saw that one. My dad saw it in the theater and he told me he was scared shitless in his chair when he saw it.

[Wanderer-nl]

I shiver thinking about a poolprty in oct/nov..

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pistachion: I don't look at postcount. I look at content. All Alone shares their thoughts when they post, while you throw around questions and then don't really do anything with it later.
All Alone said you were voteparking and soon after you changed your vote to Mario for being lazy. I didn't really believe you were voteparking, but then when I ask your reads on Davsto and Archmage you are quick to vote Archmage and it feels like you don't really care who you vote.

@Archmage: Why are you waiting to vote? What do you need to consider? And how has your read on Garmr changed your read on Davsto that you wanted to unvote him?

I don't think the town bloc is a priority right now. 2 people townreading each other at this stage isn't the weirdest thing imo and Garmr did express caution. I want to sort them later and now focus on Archmage and Pistachion.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry for my absence (at least I think it's been a while not sure, my rythm is gone to crap and with it my feeling of time)

The whole thing with Garmr and his townbloc with Firebringer is getting way too much attention. Nobody jumped when they were kidding around about becoming masons but when Garmr calls their townreading each other a town bloc everybody falls over it. We have 3 wagons; Archmage (kinda still my favourite), Pistachion (getting better) and Davsto (not sure about this one but also not against it)
Also, I have no real reasons to be scumreading Garmr, or Firebringer for that matter, so this really feels like a distraction. And Archmage was first to jump on it with his 217, then a bit later he unvotes Davsto because he's

considering to vote Garmr

then he says he just wanted to figure things out, now I didn't really get from his posts he really did change his mind, but still he intends to revote Davsto again. Pretty sure he will now that Firebringer put a fresh vote there...

I'll go read Davsto's iso because lately I've kind of been ignoring him (well, not ignoring him but brushed his posts aside as a VI-thing) but looking at how far we actually got with discussion I think Davsto is really lagging behind in terms of scumhunting, or at least trying to.

@mod: can we please get some more regular vc's?

(I see now the last one was a little over a day ago so that's not that long ago but this game is rather active so at least one every 24 hours would be awesome)

[Wanderer-nl]

3dice: More players had cases on Mario, Garmr wasn't the only one. What are your thoughts on what ICE said about Mario? Or Archmage?
What worries me about Mario is that he kept up he wasn't able to read Davsto, and later changes it to a townread. Was that townread based solely on the fact that Davsto was pushed so hard?

Also possible, but I'm wondering if this is a scum slip. I've made some assumptions about there being only 1 scum team based on number of night kills, but I couldn't for a second guess if there was only 1 goon or multiple. I'm not going to let the wording of this cause me to lose too much sleep, but if you flip scum PR it means there is very likely another.

Dav flipped goon, right? I don't really think this is a scumslip. It could be though.. Bah now I'm getting paranoid.

I didn't like Pista's 487 but never got a chance to reply to it. The whole idea to a townbloc is that you have such a strong townread on each other that you won't vote each other. We lynch based on reads as well, so why are scumreads ok and townreads not?

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't like how Scorpious never shared a read on Davsto all through Day 1. In the end he did say he was supportive of the Davsto-lynch, and he did hammer it, but I agree it looks like he was holding out to see if the wagon would die.

I'm having all kinds of paranoia about Mario. I'm going to try to work this out but for now he's null to me and would rather lynch Scorpious. I don't believe they're scum together, and if they are at least Mario is playing a really bold scumgame here. Ok, I guess I worked it out already, yay.

I really dislike how All Alone is focussed on Pistachion, but overall I'm not getting anything scummy from their posts. I think their read on Pistachion is genuine, but it could be wrong.

I'm not giving Pistachion a townread based solely on the fact she was on the same (counter)wagon as Davsto. There are heaps of wines involved so I'm treating it as null.
@Pistachion: What is your read on Scorpious? What does him hammering scum tell you?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pistachion: What is your read on Scorpious? What does him hammering scum tell you?

He got a late start, then he started questioning people when he posted. Said he wanted his questions answered before he'd be comfortable voting. Voted Mario after some argument. More stuff, etc, etc, I think the fact that he hammered makes him seem less scummy. Nothing that screams town, but I don't consider Scorp to be actively scummy.

What do you mean with 'actively scummy'? Right now I feel like you don't really want to commit to a read on Scorpious, like you want to keep your options open.

Mod: can Scorpious be prodded please?

Or is it too soon for that yet?

[Wanderer-nl]

Fire--Where did he go?

Not sure if townslip or faked..

Scorpious, who do you want to vote most? Please elaborate on that read.

[Wanderer-nl]

Not a lot of time, got to run in a few mins. Will respond with some thoughts when I get back home later.

[Wanderer-nl]

All Alone, I would appreciate if you could expand your view to like beyond Pistache. You don't engage with others about their reads on Pistache, you don't seem to be scumhunting, just pushing the one target. What doesit meanto you that a lot of players are actually townreading her?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Scorpious: There were several questions for you to elaborate on reads, could you please answer those?

@3dice: What's your read on All Alone?

If Mario and Scorpious were the only choices today, I would currently rather go for Mario over Scorpious. It's mostly gut based on how each handled pressure so far, and I feel Mario is a lot more defensive while Scorpious feels more relaxed and seems to not really care about dying.

All Alone has been looking more scummy to me, I don't really understand why they would stop pushing Pistachion now. Was it just what I said or did more things factor into that choice? Pistachion feels slightly appeasing with her vote on Mario and I agree not announcing L-1 is kinda bad. There was a vc and 2 more votes all on the same page Pistachion voted..

I'm not ready to make up my mind yet, I want to see certain people respond to certain things first.

[Wanderer-nl]

Scorpious not having a reason, or not telling us his reason anyway, for hammering Day 1 threw me off because I'd expect scum to make up a reason for their hammer to make themselves look more town. And Scorpious didn't do that. But I still don't like he never shared an actual read on Davsto. Also, when he posted his reads, Scorpious said he'd elaborate if we asked, and he hasn't. But he has been responding to other things so he is reading. I don't believe he missed multiple posts from several players asking him to elaborate on some of his reads. He's also not doing much to move discussion forward, feels like he's just waiting for someone to hammer Mario now.
My read on Mario hasn't changed, however, and I still barely see him do anyything. I agree with ICE though about Mario looking better if Scorpious flips scum, and that would go the other way around too. I'm going to sleep on it.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oops I'm the only one left to vote. And looking at the wagons I think I'm more comfortable joining Mario's wagon because more of my townreads are on that wagon. So here's my intent to hammer.

@3dice: You're the only one voting outside of the major wagons, and that makes you (like me) the odd one out. If you had to decide between Mario and Scorpious, whose wagon would you join and why?

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm not liking Archmage too much again, and only makes me want to hammer Mario more.. I'll wait for Syndesis to post his thoughts.
Ice, do you have anything else you want to share before hammer?
Anyone else?

[Wanderer-nl]

That claim feels really robotic and fake.

VOTE: Mario

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer,

Tell me more about your hammer. Any additional thought you had behind it aside from it being "robotic and fake?"

First of all because I thought he was scum. Second, all my townreads had posted after his claim and everybody seemed to have made up their minds and ready for a hammer. Mario's claim felt robotic to me in the sense that it looked a lot like he just copy-pasta'ed his claim and didn't believe in it himself.

Questions, yay! Directed towards

everyone

.

-What distribution of scum do you see across Mario and Scorpious's wagons?
-Do you think scum bussed/attacked/scumread one another yesterDay?
-Is there a strong reason for the Garmr kill? (I'm about to go back and look again, but I'd like to see what others think.)

I've been thinking about this a lot and I don't know. I didn't recognize any bussing so I didn't think it happened. I think All Alone is scum, and therefor Scorpious is probably town. Their case on Archmage is pretty weak because he's been doing the 'intent to vote' since Day 1. Also they seem to have completely forgotten about Pistachion.
I don't know why Garmr was killed, to me it really looked like he was baiting the kill. On the other hand he was pretty obvtown and able to push his scumreads to a lynch, even though yesterday Mario flipped town. I can think of another reason but I don't want to out it before I see it happening.

@ICE: what do you think about All Alone's case on Archmage?

[Wanderer-nl]

I really think Scorpious' claim is fake. If he really is town that can't be NK'ed he should have done more to obvtown himself, and one thing is actually answering questions about his reads.

@Scorpious: I'm going to disregard what I asked earlier because I forgot and righ now too lazy to look it up (though I might get less lazy later) but explain why you're scumreading ICE, All Alone and Archmage.

[Wanderer-nl]

I was just counting the votes and it's a good thing you just mentioned Scorpious is at L-1 yourself. I don't have intent to hammer (yet), I want Scorpious to answer first. And ofc more people need to post their thoughts on this wagon before anyone hammers it.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Scorpious
You're not elaborating on your reads, you're not explaining any of your actions, you're not helping move this game forward, basically you're not doing anything pro-town. I don't really care about figuring you out anymore since you don't seem to care about helping us out with that. You can go die.

This is L-1.

[Wanderer-nl]

Wanderer why don't you put a list of people you would bloc with?

Because currently I'm not so sure. Ofc Syndesis because of being conftown, and ICE has been a pretty decent townread so far as well. If I had to choose from who's left from those I'd say you, Pistachion and Archmage but I'm really not sure. Pistache and Archmage are because of my scumread on All Alone.

@Pistachion: I can see why you think that but you're wrong.

Wanderer's L-1 post could potentially be interpreted as being frustrated with being stuck with unfortunately low quality scum buddies.

I am frustrated allright, but I don't know if we belong to the same team and like I said; I don't even care anymore whether he's town or scum because he doesn't seem to care about this game at all.

Out of all the players, Alchemist is the one who strikes me the most (in his voting and unvoting pattern) willing to consider other arguments and change his mind while not sheeping under pressure.

You're describing going with the flow, which is scummy. I think I'll go have a closer look at Alchemist in a bit..

[Wanderer-nl]

ICE,Archamge,all Alone are my scum pool..

VOTE: ICENinja

Stating that you are going to vote me and nothing can change your mind.. not cool..

and since I don't feel like doing this whole thing again.. I'm a commuter..

Please elaborate on the reads you put down here.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't think Alchemist was going with the flow. He was questioning and encouraging conversation.

That's exactly the idea I had of Alchemist, but earlier you only mentioned his voting-pattern. What post of Alchemist did you like in particular?

@Scorpious: Those scumreads are ver OMGUS-y. If it weren't for their scumreads on you, would you still scumread them?

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:

1 Scorpious would have likely self-hammered by now to deprive us of more discussion. Although nthis is wifom; he could just as well be doing this ate on purpose hoping we'll move on from him.
2 I'm not comfortable there is no counterwagon to speak of and half the playerlist not voting. I get the feeling scum is waiting for us to make this misslynch and trying really hard not to ruffle the waters.

I'm at work right now, it's 1am here and still have a couple of hours to go, don't expect me back soon (at least not sober ) but I'll be looking at everyone when i have the time.

[Wanderer-nl]

If you really believe he's scum then why aren't you voting him?
Have you read number 2? Have anything to say about that?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer: have you read the post in which I criticize you? I'd like a response.

I read that while I was at work and then completely forgot about it. Will look at it now.

[Wanderer-nl]

My response to Archmage's case on me from 838.

1. Wanderer was noncommital and non-involved with the Day 1 lynch on Davsto.

True. I wasn't able to get a decent read on Davsto, and I could have done more by engaging with Davsto and stuff to improve it but I decided to pursue my own leads instead.

2. Wanderer never mentions Scorpius at all on Day 1.

That's possible, I tend to look at 2-3 people at a time because I can't handle too much information at once. What do you think of my posts about (and to) Scorpious Day 2 and today?

3. She displays similar wishy-washy behavior towards Scorpius on Day 2.

Oh right, here's my answer. So what exactly is wishy-washy and why does that make me scum? And similar to what?
Wanting Scorpious active: Ofcourse I want him active, if he's town he needs to help us find scum and if he's scum we want to catch him in a lie/contradiction and for that he needs to post.
About wanting Mario lynched over Scorpious: I was scumreading Mario and going back and forth (or being wishy-washy as you call it) on Scorpious. Mario is usually more involved, this time I missed his questioning and sharing thoughts, he was just there.

4. Hammers Mario for being "robotic and fake," with plenty of time left on the day.

I explained the 'robotic and fake' already.
As for the time of my hammer:

This game is kind of stagnating. As of right now, I'm pretty OK with either wagon. I'm pretty sure there is exactly 1 scum between them, and if we miss today we'll get scum tomorrow.

I'm not really sure where to go after that, though. I'll need to look at interactions depending on which one flips scum.

I don't think we're going to get much more discussion out of this Day. Someone should probably hammer at this point. I'm still thinking Mario/AA are the scumteam.

I'm done vomiting words for now. Hammer if you want so I can stop WIFOMing myself on Scorpious. Will probably attempt another reread overnight.

I also asked:

I'm not liking Archmage too much again, and only makes me want to hammer Mario more.. I'll wait for Syndesis to post his thoughts.
Ice, do you have anything else you want to share before hammer?
Anyone else?

And everyone posted between that and my hammer, nobody told me to hold it. If it was too soon then I'm sorry, but I really thought everyone had made up their minds and done with the Day.

5. Turns on Scorpius as soon as its clear that he is the prime target.

(Could you please use actual post numbers instead of the numbers that are in iso? I have no idea where to place 30 and 31 rn. Also, for quick access, if someone is too lazy to make the postnumber into a link I'll open the reply-box, make the post-link myself and click it in preview, so the actual postnumbers would be great. Anyway, found them in my iso)
In my 801 (31 in iso) I was in a really bad mood and starting to get annoyed with Scorpious. I have no better explanation for 801, and after some more thought about Scorpious' claim I decided to drop it because it's outguessing the mod. It's null. The wiki-page says most commuters are even/odd-night or x-shot, but a full commuter is still considered normal, so it is possible though unlikely.

6. *Ignores the reasoning behind unvoting Scorpius to less than L-1 and votes Scorpius back up to L-1*

Yes, that happened. I made a mistake and I unvoted again.

My one reservation:

Wanderer's insistence on getting Scorp to answer questions about his reads on Day 2 could just be a scum trying to mentor their scum-mate along, but it is still a generally pro-town thing to try and get people to answer questions. Her insistence on getting Scorpius to try and answer questions seems like something that scum would not be obligated to do. I can see upsides and downsides to it as scum, but it just doesn't seem like something scum should be encouraged to do, if we act on the assumption that Wanderer and Scorp are scum-buddies.

What happens to this thought if Scorpious flips town?

For the record, I'm townreading Archmage now. I think he put a lot of effort in his case on me and I didn't get the feeling he was trying to make me look bad, he just misinterpreted some things which also have to do with how I post when I'm in a bad mood. I'm sorry, it's a female-thing..

[Wanderer-nl]

@Scorpious; What about the fact ICE was in Davsto for most of D1, and was the first one to push him?

I don't know,could be a bus gone wrong,or just a sell-out. I was scum in a past game where my partner just sold me up the river on D1,and never looked back..

Now that's just making something that happened fit your read. Or did you actually find something between ICE and Davsto that points to ICE bussing?

[Wanderer-nl]

Alchemist: You addressed me to post my townbloc, but you didn't ask others that didn't post theirs. What's up with that?

[Wanderer-nl]

Whoops almost missed this..

Now that's just making something that happened fit your read.

No... That's my thought process. If I'm going to answer questions,I'm going to do it my way,not in a way to appease anyone. Did I say this is exactly what happened? Nope..

Did I address the point as a possibility.. Yes. Don't misrep me.. Thank you

So do you actually believe ICE was bussing his buddy or were you just looking for a scenario that was fitting to your read? Because your response very much makes it look like the latter. Again; did you find anything that points to ICE actually bussing or not?

[Wanderer-nl]

Looks like MM siteflaked, hasn't posted anywhere since early november.. And farside was really only back-up mod. Hope she wants to finish this for us even though main mod left.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm not good at set-up speccing but I have a really hard time believing there's a universal back-up in a game with at least IC, full commuter and a cop. And why would you even want to claim being the new commuter as town?
I was gonna vote here but I just remembered a game I played not too long ago where I was scum, we had 2 goons and an encryptor. Town had an IC that could claim whenever they wanted, a 1-shot BP, a RB, a JOAT (cop, vig, neighbourizer, rb) which was reviewed as balanced. (here's the link if anyone's interested: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63443 )

In my experience massclaiming usually leads to (useless) conversation about role distribution and balance. It's easy for scum to blend into these kinds of discussions and look helpful while really they're just trying to add wifom and town paranoia. I'm not necessarily against it, just not particularly in favour of it either.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry it took a while, was reading yesterday and then got called away. Anyway, here now for a bit.

for the record if anyone's wondering why I suddenly shut the hell up about pistachi0n yesterday it's cause I figured out ICE's innos

*quotes cut*

It really bothers me that Wanderer wanted to get everyone's thoughts before the day ended, and believed that scum-Scorp would self-hammer given the opportunity, yet had absolutely no qualm whatsoever putting Scorp at L-1. I know Wanderer's a pretty cunning strategist, so I really don't think she'd give Scorp that opportunity unless she was completely okay with it. I think the reason she wasn't concerned with scum-Scorp self-hammering is because she knew he wasn't scum in the first place.

I'm also suspicious that after she declared Scorp was town, she never once suggested an alternative lynch. It really doesn't feel like she wanted to stop the Scorp lynch at all.

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

I was wondering about that, thanks for clarifying. It's null though because both town and scum would stop pushing as soon as they saw that, and it's really obvious in hindsight.

I tried talking about other things yesterday but ICE made it very clear he wasn't going to talk about other things than lynching Scorpious and everybody else sort of stopped talking about other things, me included, so then I was hoping Scorpious was maybe able to either conftown himself through our questions, or we'd catch him in a contradiction or lie or something. I wanted to try and be as sure as I could because I felt everyone was too easily influenced to just go for Scorpious. I never declared he was town, I always had doubts. I've been very open about going back and forth about him and having a hard time figuring out his alignment, and Scorpious wasn't much of a help at that either so that made me frustratingly vote Scorpious. And he had already been at L-1 when I voted, during which Scorpious had posted

several

times. He was obviously not planning on self-hammering, and 793 shows that he knew he was at L-1 there. And it didn't look much like I wanted to stop the lynch because Scorpious had far from convinced me he was town and I'm not going to defend someone when I think they might be scum. I had issues with people voting solely because of his claim, because that was null, not so much with Scorpious getting lynched, because he was scummy (at least imo).

I'm going to read up on everyone, see if I missed more besides the not-too-subtle hints from ICE and check all wagons.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry flu struck this weekend and haven't had the energy to reread things. Will try to get to that today.

Anyway, I'm a 1-shot neighbourizer and I used my shot N1 on Syndesis. I was aware of the risk of neighbourizing conftown, and I thought about choosing ICE or Garmr. In the end I decided to do the selfish thing and choose conftown so I wouldn't be bothered by any additional paranoia from the neighbourthread.

(I want to write more but I just woke up from the most horrible dream I ever had and it was quite realistic and, wow I've never been this upset by a dream before, I need to do something more fun/distracting, sorry.)

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry, this flu has come at the worst time.

@3dice: I get paranoid easily and I picked conftown to neighbourize so I didn't have to worry about talking to scum. Someone like ICE or Garmr would likely also be able to make me believe they're town or at least make me hesitate so much to not want to lynch them if they were scum.

@Syndesis: I feel like we're OP too and I think the reviewers underestimated the power a known IC has. Scum obviously thought there was a doc in the game, or they would have probably killed you already. There isn't a doc though and instead we had a full commuter and a cop and also a neighbourizer which isn't all too strong but still adds up. I seriously doubt Alchemist's claim of universal back-up, a specific back-up I maybe could have believed, but universal just seems way too strong.

@Alchemist: That's sort of what I wrote about what I thought scum would do if they were neighbourizer. If I were scum I wouldn't want to neighbourize the IC because I'd want to kill them asap. It would be better to neighbourize someone that looks just town enough to justify using a 1-shot on but not too town that it's weird they're alive a long time. And for me it would be a little easier if I already know the person and know what they respond to.

[Wanderer-nl]

I actually think that Alchemist not being able to get IC points more to the role landed in scum-hands. IC is inherently town.
About it maybe being mylo: I don't think so. 13 players in a normal likely means 3 scum. We lynched 1 scum already so 2 scum left and 5 town, which means if we misslynch today and scum kill tonight, we'll be in lylo tomorrow. Mylo means we'll lose if we misslynch.

Alchemist: Do you have reasons at all for picking me or was your vote a guess?

@Pistachion: Syndesis confirmed my role, not my alignment.

[Wanderer-nl]

Wanderer, do you believe a town Universal Backup can exist in this setup with you?

I find it very, very hard to believe. After I played Numbers mafia I know there are some reviewers that think town need a lot of pr's to win (4 pr's of which one a JOAT with 4 pr's in one vs 3 scum that had 1 pr) so if you don't mind I'd like to take my time a little to figure this out. I'm also considering the role could be a complete lie and only serves to cause paranoia.

You haven't made much of an impression on me this game, and when considering that there are highly likely 2 scum in you/archmage/3dice, I felt Archmage looked the Towniest.

Also, do you think it's possible scum would have a dayvig? That's the basis for me thinking this could be mylo, since if there is one then a mislynch today and a NK + DK from the scum means they win.

One more thing, what about the fact I could become a Cop? That role is also inherently Town.

That's highly likely only if the assumptions about ICE's investigations are true, and I'm horrible at spotting tells, for me only Pistachion stands out as his target.

No. Scum with a dayvig-shot can save it to lylo, shoot town during Day and win. It's actually a ridiculous thought scum would have dayvig in a non-rolemadness (or even at all imo but I wouldn't know) I think it's more likely scum have a godfather, what did you think about that suggestion? Or was one of your buddies inno'ed?

Cop is not inherently town, scum could get cop, although rolecop is very much more likely for scum than alignment cop. IC is conftown. Scum can't be conftown. Scum getting IC would mean an alignment change. That's what I meant with IC being inherently town.

[Wanderer-nl]

I already posted the link to that game when I first brought it up.. This time I'll also include the link to the mod topic as it might be hard to find that link in the actual game (mod's iso is huge!)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63443 game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=63442 mod pt

[Wanderer-nl]

It's possible there's a Godfather, but like I said before someone's going to have to show me convincing reasons as to why either AA or Pistachion would be a Godfather before I doubt Ice's results.

I don't want to discredit ICE or his results, but nowhere did ICE specifically say that anyone was cleared by him so all we can do is assume his results from how he posted and like I said, so far only Pistachion seems like an actual clear to me. Maybe ICE thought scum wouldn't tunnel town 2 Days in a row and assumed All Alone was town because of that? See, that's how my brain works. For others it might be easy to assume and use those assumptions as facts, but I can't do that.

I still think All Alone is scum. I feel their Day 1 jump on Davsto's wagon looks like they needed to do it to prevent being scumread for not being on the wagon. There was no opinion on Davsto from All Alone all Day until near DL when All Alone suddenly wants to reach a concensus and joins on Davsto. (495) Which is funny, because Day 2 when Mario is the bigger wagon, they go for Scorpious instead, right after Pistachion went for Mario. (674) That gave me the idea that All Alone was looking more to not be on the same wagon as Pistachion so they could continue their tunnel the next Day again. Day 3 there's a weak jump back to Archmage for 'wanting to vote Scorpious but not yet voting' which was actually consistent playing from Archmage, so that read felt very out of place (767). Then decides to jump the Scorpious-wagon again but there isn't much reason, only that they may have jumped the gun on the previous Archmage-read. Now today they're voting for me and brings up points that were already relevant before Scorpious was lynched, which makes me think they wanted the Scorpious-misslynch to happen instead of coming up with a new case that might break the Day open again completely.

I think I want All Alone and Pistachion to claim after all although I'm not sure if it is much use (scum would likely just claim vt at this point?) but it's bothering me that some people are treating them as conftown while those are basically assumptions. I need more than a possible cop-inno to be convinced All Alone is town. Also, the possibility of a godfather makes the results irreliable, so while I do believe ICE had an inno on Pistachion, I'm not treating it as a 100% clear. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, I tend to do that..

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Alchemist

Yes that was hammer.
I'm quite done telling everyone how those cop-results are an assumption and not a fact.

[Wanderer-nl]

Because he'd already claimed and he was talking nonsense. Although his claimed turned out to be true. Again. That's why I don't like massclaims or outguessing-the-mod strategies because they just don't work

[Wanderer-nl]

I wasn't nervous about that, you were. Scorpious was at L-1 BEFORE I VOTED HIM. Learn to read.

[Wanderer-nl]

I meant; Scorpious had already been at L-1 before the first time I'm voting him. I don't mind educated scumreads on me but come on All Alone, at least try.

[Wanderer-nl]

This almost feels the same as the time you blocked BBT while I was busy shooting the BP. The only difference is that in that game

I

was scum.

[Wanderer-nl]

How is All Alone town? They're not even pushing their scumreads, just blatantly buddying the one person we can all agree on ICE had an innocent on. After tunnelling her for 2 full Days. And ofcourse All Alone saw the (possible) inno on Pistachion, but they also recognized a very slim possibility that there was an inno on themselves as well so they decided to kill the cop and then jackpot when Alchemist posted his thoughts on ICE's results because besides getting free townreads, now All Alone also wouldn't stand out for recognizing the cop. All Alone is now trying to figure out already who is the best misslynch for tomorrow. And who better to ask then the one person we can all agree on is most likely innocent?

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Wanderer

[Wanderer-nl]

Yay 3dice, I knew you could do it!

Sorry I have been busy with Christmas shopping and planing for guest.

This game was really hard for many people and I'm sorry many were mad at the set up and how it went.

Most frustration from me was because we seemed so trapped when Alchemist posted how All Alone and Pistachion were inno'ed. You'll all be able to read in the scumPT that my death was a sacrifice to make 3dice able to win it. We couldn't have him flip before me because of the godfather-thing.

The irritating truth of trying to find the doctor that wasn't there. :/

This.

Anyway, had fun this game most of the time.
I actually left the site, but kept following this game because I wanted to know how it ended. Who knows, I might come back some day, but right now there's no room in my head for mafia.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't mind you releasing the scum pt, albeit, it's not much to look at.

Seconded, btw.
Also np with neighbourthread released.

[Wanderer-nl]

The scum thread was a fun read! Not sure whether to be salty (for being gullible) or flattered lol. However, this is clearly proof that I am ordinarily

not paranoid enough

Wanderer, I'm glad you found our neighborhood conversation amusing, heh.

You did great, at times I did feel cornered by your questions and had to think really hard so I wouldn't slip.
I hope you don't take what I said too personally, I wasn't laughing at you or anything but I decided to have fun with the neighbourhood because I knew I was getting lynched after hammering Alchemist. I'm kinda curious about that image though

I've mentioned this a few times already but want to again thank you, farside, for taking over modding-duties. I won't say anything about Monkey because I have a long day ahead of me and don't want to ruin it with negative thoughts.

Everybody I wish you happy holidays and who knows, we might meet again some day next year.