Mini 1733: Jurassic Monkey - game over

[ICEninja]

Vote: Syndesis

for obvious reasons.

Alright so I like to start things off with a couple housekeeping things that I'd appreciate if people respond to. It may or may not help find scum, but it makes the game easier for me and possibly others to follow.

1) Is anyone in a non-American time zone, or for other reasons posts in odd hours?
2) Is anyone here brand new or otherwise unfamiliar with how the game is played here at mafiascum.net?
3) What kind of level of activity should we expect from you?

To respond to my own questions I live in Pacific time, but my sleep schedule has been awkward lately so I might post later than one would expect from a west coaster. I'm quite experienced (30ish games?) but haven't played in like a year and a half when my games kept getting ruined by site downtime. I have more free time than I should right now (thus coming back to Mafia!) and I'll likely be quite active.

[ICEninja]

Welp, that was an easy RVS.

Firebringer calls me town and votes me in the same post.

Unvote, vote Firebringer

.

[ICEninja]

No, I read it correctly. I was hoping you'd unvote or attack me in another way in order to attempt to cement your vote but alas you're more likely town based on that response alone.

Unvote

.

Garmr seemed excited that he knew who would be confirmed town. Maybe that excitement came from already having a solid N1 target?

Vote Garmr

.

[ICEninja]

It seems like you are being a bit hasty Ice. Why would garmr hint at who he would kill?

He wouldn't. He might, however, be more excited as scum than as town to think he has this information, and my wild "got nothing better so far" theory is that the tone of his first post was excited/amused, which might point to him having like 1% more likelihood of any other player at the moment of being scum. Ergo, vote.

Is he actually reaction testing us or this some kind of ploy?

I just hate RVS and do whatever it takes to stimulate discussion ASAP. I was hoping to catch you overextending to make a case out of it, but I'm still happy with the read I gained. Better than page 1 usually turns out.

For the record I never do anything to look stupid.

ICEninja is acting weird. I'm not sure I like "EASY RVS GUISE --> Oh I guess you're town let's vote for someone else I guess..."

There'd be nothing wrong with this as a page 1 case if a vote followed it. Without a vote, it feels like you're giving yourself clearance to hop on an ICEwagon should it form. Slightly scummy.

[ICEninja]

Syndesis it's a perfectly fine thing that everyone looks like scum right now. Honestly it's way worse when everyone is looking super town or hasn't yet posted content.

It is par for the course for me to have a number of votes on me this early due to my tendency to make excessively aggressive moves early on.

My wagon seems to be a good place to potentially look for scum as (at a quick recall, I'm on mobile atm and would be a pain to confirm) my wagon has the most activity so far.

I already feel like fire's initial reaction is more town than scum, though I think twice I've seen someone dislike the second vote on me without explaining why. Could one of you expand on what specifically bugged you?

[ICEninja]

Alright guys, do EVERYONE a favor and when you quote someone, please just quote the relevant part of the post. Like this.

Can i ask a question why go for the I'm shit and so bad that I'm a easy mislynch so everyone voting me is scum approach instead of actual competent hunting. I know you're a oldie and might be a little rusty but why go for this approach?

I'm absolutely not. How the hell did you get "I'm so shit, I'm and easy mislynch" from "I have a wagon on me every game, time to find out which one is scum"?

Won't votes that I'm not confident in muddy the waters for VCA? It's not going to be reflective of my true perspective if it's a vote I was arbitrarily pressured into making for VCA, is it?

Who could be confident at this stage? And yet pretty much everyone else is voting. It makes it much easier for people to track your primary suspect over time. Right now all you've contributed is calling something I did "weird" and defend not liking to throw down early votes. Who do you think is MOST LIKELY to be scum right now, and why?

Take a look, for example, at Garmr's vote. It's bad, but at least it helps people read him and learn his alignment. If you're town, you want us to learn your alignment. If you're scum, you absolutely don't. So which role does your play benefit more? You guessed it! Scum! If you're scum go ahead and continue to not vote as we only really want town votes anyway, makes it easier to lynch scum day 1.

Fire definitely lost his townread, by nature of having made an early move then slinking back to the shadows. The rest of his subsequent posts haven't really had much in the way of content to them, except a meta IIoA, and completely lack a vote after an unvote. Why the sudden shift from aggressive voter to not having anything?

I'd really like Diego to come in and post some content.

[ICEninja]

Alright there are multiple of you who are still improperly using the quote system and it is making this game harder to follow. If you MUST press the quote button, then

for god's sake manually remove EVERYTHING in the quote that isn't related to your point or what you are posting

. I am looking at you 3dice.

It is infinitely better to manually create your own quote tag by typing {quote="

name of person you are quoting

"}

copy paste the part of the post you want to quote

{/quote} except replace { with [. The quotations are important.

I specifically would like to see Diego post more because he is the lowest content provider among those who have gained noticeable suspicion.

[ICEninja]

@Archmage: what do you plan to do to start gaining reads of people? You seem to be trying VERY hard to not have any right now.

@Davsto: you've posted quite a few times, but have contributed next to nothing content wise. Gun to your head, you have to lynch someone RIGHT NOW. Who and why?

@Pistachi0n: Is your vote on Garmr legit or remnants of RVS?

Diego and All Alone need to post more

Scorpious has yet to post.

[ICEninja]

Firebringer because I don't have confident enough reads to lynch anyone, but I can't read Firebringer at all, so getting his alignment straight early on is useful.

So you have zero useful reads at the moment. Noted.

Ice - Who is your #1 scumspect right now and why?

Hard to say, it somewhat depends on the metric. Gun to my head have to lynch now, I'd knock off Archmage, as his current strategy benefits scum far more than town. Garmr is gut reading as scum more than anyone. The player I'd like to see votes on to apply pressure would be All Alone. Any of those 3 could theoretically count as my #1 scumspect.

[ICEninja]

What the fuck Fire, why are you calling me stupid?

Then you say "i don't got much" then point out the obvious stuff?

How the hell do you get "don't got much" from "here are my 3 best scum reads"? Read my fucking posts, ffs.

This is twice in the game you've called me dumb. Are you always this rude?

[ICEninja]

Neither time you've called me out have I done anything to look stupid or be stupid or even close to it.

I almost feel like you're intentionally trying to rile me up.

[ICEninja]

So ice can you explain why I'm your number 1 scum read even through you haven't really pushed me that much and

this post comes off as you town reading me

Incorrect. I stated that your vote helps people read your alignment, which is something that town WANTS people to do. I also called your vote bad. I don't have a case on you, per se, but you're reading a double personality here. Half of your posts are care free and include the tongue-out emoticon, and half of them seem nervous and unsettled. All of those posts regard me and my vote/read on you. It's giving me a gut read that you're faking stuff, and has resulted in my vote no longer being a tool with which to end the RVS, but instead an honest "I think you're more likely to be scum than anyone else based on the available information" vote.

----------

Alright as for Diego's first piece of actual content, let's tear it to pieces piece by piece.

Firebringer did not call you town. He said your trying to look like town, completely different.

Yup. And I tried to catch him backpedaling his statement which would have indicated scum. He did not, which slightly indicates not scum (though he definitely seems too competent to fall for that, and too abrasive to care what anyone thinks to back down either so I doubt my move would have worked regardless if he's scum or not). You're certainly focusing quite hard on what I did on page 1, care to comment on things that have developed since then?

Again, this is not scumhunting, this is throwing WIFOM into an argument to make someone else look bad.

I pointed out something that VERY SLIGHTLY indicated someone having a higher chance of being scum than town. How is that WIFOM? It's the opposite of WIFOM. I'm pretty confident you have absolutely no idea what WIFOM is, even moreso than the 60%+ of the time that the term is used incorrectly.

Based on what information I had, it was the best vote I could make. I've since applied a (admittingly somewhat weak and mostly gut based, but good enough for me early D1) scum read on him. Explain again how that isn't scum hunting, please.

This is LAMIST if I've ever seen it. Aggression is not alignment indicative.

When did I ever say that had anything to do with alignment? I have 2-5 votes on me the first few pages of virtually every game I'm in, scum or town. It was simply an honest statement.

I'm voting you because of the intent behind your aggression, which is to throw shit at the wall a see what sticks. That is scum indicative.

Ohhhhhh so scum hunting is scummy now, got it. I guess I'd better wait for sure fire logical facts that point to someone being scum before trying to find any, huh?

Honestly what I did early wasn't even town indicative, it was ICEninja indicative. I make early moves to get out of the RVS nearly always, because I find that stage of the game pointless.

----------

Alright so there's a ton of meta reads floating around right now. I'm 100% fine with people having them, as some people are quite good at finding alignment based on meta. I, personally, will not regard "this player is playing like how he plays town" or vice versa as alignment indicative unless there are specific examples, and usually only noticeable trends in somebody's scum game. So forgive me if I ignore any comments about, for example, Fire being town because this is how Fire acts as town. I'm not taking your word for it.

[ICEninja]

OK 3DICE

. I'm going to ask you one last time.
CLIP. YOUR. QUOTES. In post 127 you did NOT have to include all of that in the quotes. You make the pages unnecessarily long and harder to follow. Stop. What you did in 137 is fine but please notate somewhere either directly before or after that bolded font is your response.

And Garmr, I AM voting you until I have something more solid elsewhere (or not if I find further evidence against you). I already said my vote is a mild gut read and it's still early game.

That being said, I still feel like you are more likely to be scum than anyone else in this game right now, based on the information I currently have. Others disagree and that's fine, but no one as of yet has presented a case compelling enough for me to be convinced.

[ICEninja]

Looking at Garmr in isolation, there is only 1 piece of actual contribution of content in his 18 posts that isn't directly about me or my vote on him, and that one piece was a meta town read on Fire.

I'm not sure if this is alignment indicative, but it does genuinely make me feel like Garmr is very heavily focused on my vote on him and that essentially everything else he posts is fluff. I feel like Garmr is too competent of a player to have the whole "someone is voting me ERGO MUST BE SCUM!" mentality.

So Garmr, let's pretend you daycop me right here right now and find me town. Who do you vote instead, and why?

[ICEninja]

His accusing me of having one post of content and doing nothing which is flat out wrong and I'm offended

I accused you of having one post of content

that doesn't DIRECTLY pertain to me or my vote on you

. I also believe it is accurate. If you feel it is inaccurate feel free to ISO yourself and demonstrate where you have contributed content that isn't fluff or doesn't involve me in any way shape or form. Prove me wrong and I will concede the point.

The only thing I wanted clipped out of 127 was the "oops" thing. Sometimes when I try to clip quotes I screw up, so I usually tend to not, but I can start for this game.

Using the preview function makes it quite easy to see if you messed up any quote clipping.

Archmage seems to spend a LOT of effort on 146, but the only actual read he seems to have is on Garmr. I like the read on Garmr, but that's pretty much all I like about the post. Recaps don't help much, and I agree with everyone who attacks him for IIoA. Since I know Archmage is going to ask, this stands for

Information Instead of Analysis

, and is a tactic frequently used by scum to act as if they are taking a stance without actually taking a stance. Recap, give information, but commit to nothing.

Garmr continues to fluffpost. Fire continues to fluffpost.

Pistachi0n pops in with a vote for "lazy play". What the hell does that even mean? Please come back and explain your vote with something that indicates alignment.

[ICEninja]

Garmr, I have some homework for you. Go back and re-read my original point against you in 141. Notice that I say you have exactly one post of content that doesn't involve me or my vote on you, and I state which one it is. You then get really upset, and I then clarify my point. You respond in 169.

I'm glad that we both are now in complete agreement in my case against you.

also fluff posts not a site wide scum tell anymore ice because of people like me fluff posting all the time as town it's now a individual scum tell than a general one.

Fluff posts by themselves are not scummy. That being said, fluff posts while avoiding posting actual content IS scummy.

I'm glad you've finally realized how little you've mentioned anything else. Since my original point on you, the content you've posted that doesn't involve me includes exactly 3 things: 1) Your old weak meta town read on Fire, 2) Your meta null-read of pistachi0n (it's debatable if this is content), and 3) Pointing out once again the IC (also not precisely content but I'm giving it to you).

Tunneling is not inherently scummy but ho boy have you done a great job ignoring the rest of the game.

--------

ICE: can we now stop worrying about the quotings?

So long as they stop being an issue, absolutely.

Diego is my primary, and only, scumread.

While I like the scum read, I dislike how little you've posted, how you say you'll catch up, then you drop 1 strong scum read and 2 weak scum reads with essentially meta as your entire case.

Convince me to vote for your scum read.

[ICEninja]

Also, I approve of an Archmage wagon building up. It'll be clear why once there's more content to look at.

PEDIT:

In fairness to Garmr. Who have you reference other than him and 3Dice since page 5?

are you not doing the same thing you are accusing him of?

Post 166 updates my reads of several players. Also, you're asking for 2 and a half pages worth when I'm referring to Garmr's 7 and a half pages worth, and I've still provided more content relating to other things in said time frame.

[ICEninja]

Mod, we've got a single vote count and it's page 8. Can we increase the frequency of vote counts?

[ICEninja]

@ICEninja, why will the reasons for my scumminess become more clear as more content arises? Why can't they become clear right now?

Patience. My statement, which you read hastily, will become clear.

Syndesis, every game that I've been scum I've had access to the quicktopic before D1 starts. Assuming with near certainty that scum had a chance to talk before the game started.

Archmage's biggest scum read is based on "active lurking", where one attempts to force content despite not actually having much.

Hmm.

[ICEninja]

...Really?

That feels unfair to me. I've been at least trying, if not to any effect. The reason I'm suspicious of Davsto is because nearly all of his content is explicitly non-content. As far as I can tell, Davsto is not exerting any effort in the game. That's what I meant by active-lurking.

I suppose you have a point here. The difference is you got pressured, though. Nobody has made as much of a push on Davsto to post content (memo to self) save for a few offhand remarks. You have made an effort though so there's that.

Also just an off topic friendly heads up, I only know what "take the piss on me" means because of Reddit. We don't have that phrase in America, and over here being pissed means being extremely angry. Using that phrase might cause you to be misunderstood which has the potential to be problematic here.

Let's go over the possibilities:
1. It's a specific sort evidence that you suspect will be brought up (for whatever reason).
2. You don't have a clue what kind of evidence will be brought up, but you're sure it's gonna be good!
3. You already know, but you're just not telling.

There's a 4th possibility, and it's that I have a really solid theory on something, but the theory needs to be tested before I can say anything conclusive. I've been trying to be more clever and tactical this game than I have been historically (where I would mostly just logically analyze what I saw to death).

Just as an fyi: I'm about to head out to a cremation

Take a day or three and collect yourself, we'll still be here when you get back. Best wishes.

@Fire, I'm not taking your word for it that Garmr is town just because you've played with town Garmr before. Unless you can show me a solid case that doesn't involve me reading full games of him (I don't do that unless absolutely necessary), possibly where he does something explicit as Garmr!town that Garmr!scum never does or vice versa, your meta read is meaningless to my read of Garmr. For all I know you two could be scum buddies.

And ugh, the replacements start. Let's hope his replacement is more interested in the game.

[ICEninja]

Alright so it's time we start paying a little attention to Davsto. He has 14 posts, that include the phrases "I often struggle to get much early on.", "I'll have a look in the morning, see if a fresh mindset makes a difference. Don't hold your breath.", and "I can be quite slow early game, sometimes.". Zero of these 14 posts include content.

Alright I get it if you can't exactly find scum from RVS and the high activity vote switching that tends to happen shortly after but we're on page 10, and you have 14 posts without activity. There is an absolute abundance of material to go on, and your litany of "I'm not helpful early game" quite fully succeeded in getting people to pretty much give you a pass early game to just not have any stances at all.

Let's have a guess which alignment this benefits more...

Garmr can wait.

Unvote, vote Davsto

.

PEDIT: I didn't say I think you are scum buddies. I said for all I know.

Also, you can now replace 14 posts with 15.

[ICEninja]

Whoa. Whoa. He has suspicions! And a 4th excuse for no content.

So if you've had suspicions why have you not posted about them?

[ICEninja]

I'm liking Mario for scum more and more.

Man I'm starting to have WAY too many scum reads this game.

[ICEninja]

So...you've had nothing...NOTHING for 10 pages. Four times have you made excuses about lack of content because you aren't good at early game.

Then you drop a vote for the person who voted you...based on things that happened on page 1. You dropped a vote you could have dropped 10 of the 11 pages ago, after 4 times saying "I got nothing, too early in the game",

particularly

after this statement:

I'll have a look in the morning, see if a fresh mindset makes a difference. Don't hold your breath.

That was on page 4. So on page 4 you re-read the game with a fresh mindset, including what you voted me for, but had nothing. All the sudden I'm voting you and now what I did on page 1 is scummy to you. Don't forget that, gun to your head, you would have policy lynched someone instead of lynching someone for scum suspicion on page 4, which was clearly after what you've voted me for.

If this isn't going through my ISO in an attempt to find a reason to call me scum (and a particularly weak one at that), I don't know what is.

This is far above and beyond the scummiest thing anyone has done this game.

[ICEninja]

Davsto's second OMGUS vote in 2 pages.

Choo choo! All aboard the lynch train!

[ICEninja]

Do you think the OMGUS is a good reason to lynch Davsto?

It totally depends on the context. In this situation, absolutely. Dude was CLEARLY reading the game, with his response to my "taking the piss" coming, so he was actively lurking. He comes and drops an awful vote on the person who votes him, then gets railed for it. He then drops another vote on someone else, basically because he voted him.

Davsto is reading the game. Like I said, he went through my ISO to try to find a reason to vote me. I'm pretty confident of this.

[ICEninja]

side note:don't remember ice being this bad of a player as town it's got to be his scum game.

Firstly, fuck you. Secondly, trying to meta read me is stupid when my last completed game was almost 2 years ago.

[ICEninja]

The interactions between Garmr and 3dice will be good to examine in more detail later, but for now there hasn't been really much of anything to change my opinion of things the past page or two.

I'll be on a trip all weekend, woo 6 flags, so consider me V/LA. I'll attempt to keep up, but I wouldn't be surprised if Halloween weekend has low content anyway. Back for sure Sunday evening.

[ICEninja]

The word you're looking for is hypocritical. Remind me to look at pistachi0n when I get home.

[ICEninja]

I've read through all the nothing that has happened this past weekend. I'm very disappointed in everyone suddenly forgetting that Davsto is scum. Pistachi0n might be scum but Davsto's voting pattern much better matches sloppy scum play. Don't forget that someone who isn't very good at down D1 probably isn't exceptionally talented at playing as scum D1 either.

[ICEninja]

Surely, then, me playing bad D1 is entirely a null tell?

You being scummy is a scum tell. "I'm bad at day 1" is a null defense.

Wah wah people always scum read me day 1 this is the type scum tell I came across were scum will victimize them self in order to get a town read I call this the feminist tell.

<_<.......>_>.......LMAO

Alright so things have actually happened. This is good. I'll catch up page 17 and 18 tonight.

[ICEninja]

ALRIGHT SO.

Davsto is still scum. He keeps defending that he has slow starts to games, but

this is not why I am voting him

. I am voting him because of his initial vote on me that was given reasons that occurred on page 1, which happened before he claimed to have re-read the game with fresh eyes, "coincidentally" right after I put pressure on him.

His second vote then goes right to the next person voting him.

There isn't much surprise that his 3rd vote goes on Garmr who, surprise surprise, is pressuring Davsto.

He's systematically attempting to discredit everyone who would push a wagon on him. THIS IS SO SCUMMY.

@Syndesis, When Davsto comes in and does all the things I have pointed out above (this post is mostly just rehash of things I've said before) and can only defend himself by saying "no no I suck early game I always do this" I have so say...um...nope, you're scummy this game regardless of how bad you are day 1.

--------

There are a handful of other people that could be scum but I'm about as sure as I can be for day 1 that Davsto is scum. By all means, everyone is welcome to attempt to persuade me that _____ is scum, but chances are the best you'll get is me being willing to vote them after scumflip on Dav.

[ICEninja]

So you claim to have forgotten.

I'd like a response to my case against you. You haven't given one yet besides "but I suck at D1", as that's not my case against you.

[ICEninja]

Lol Davso you claim a whole lot of things are due to incompetence. You claim to have placed the vote before reading my pressure on you, yet you were SUPER on top of talking about Brit slang.

You, sir, are a liar and scum.

I'm very happy that this wagon is finally gaining traction.

[ICEninja]

Yes, it was a coincidence that it happened after you started putting pressure on me. That's when I did the readthrough and borderline did a double-take when I saw that post.

I misread the double take part.

So how many times did you read my post on page 1 before you "realized" it was scummy?

[ICEninja]

No, information is "There are people voting for Davsto. ICE made a case against him but I don't know how I feel about it".

Analysis is "I don't like this wagon", which is how I am interpreting Mario's post. Mario, please correct me if I am wrong, and that you are actually confused by the wagon as opposed to being against it.

[ICEninja]

Scorp voted Archmage for not fully understand IIoA.

Hrm.

[ICEninja]

@Scorpious, If you had been reading, you'd know that IIoA is information instead of analysis, because there was much discussion of Archmage doing this.

Considering how you're VOTING him, that makes me super uneasy.

[ICEninja]

This is what I'm uneasy about:

I explained to Archmage, using an example, that he incorrectly used the term IIoA. You then proceeded to agree with my statement and follow it with a vote, indicating that you think his misunderstanding of what IIoA means he is likely to be scum.

You then asked what IIoA is.

[ICEninja]

Oh right, I totally forgot something.

A long time ago, I stated that "I approve of the Archmage wagon, and it'll be clear why later".

Note that I didn't actually find Archmage scummy, I just wanted scum to wagon him. Because every game has the easy lynchbait, that (4 out of 5 times) townie who is trying but doesn't really have the best grasp of scum hunting, and scum vote them. A lot. It's easy to justify, gets D1 over without as much information going through, and it has come as no surprise to myself that the two most suspicious players FMPOV (Scorp and obviously Davsto) have made absolutely horrible awful Scummy McScumcum votes on Archmage.

I had plans to do more with this earlier, but people didn't quite wagon him as hard as I thought they would.

I wish I could articulate this better, but if Davsto's baseline level of scumminess is always high then you have to recalibrate your reads, right?

I totally get what you're saying here, and my response is that useless/bad at D1 does not equal scummy. He has done things that are outright scummy.

So for the record, my lynch preference is Davsto, and I don't really want to move my vote, but for cookies I might be willing to hammer Scorpious if he gets run up to L-1.

--------

It's page 20, I'm solid on my reads, and I think most people are as well. It's time to lynch. If your vote isn't on a major wagon, then reconsider.

[ICEninja]

So here's the thing about town blocs. I haven't said anything about it and I wasn't planning on it but people are

still

talking about it so I'll just say this.

Town blocs are fine so long as they aren't permanent. Fire and Garmr weren't going to lynch each other on D1 under virtually any circumstance because they're confident on each other's reads (for day 1, anyway. The strength of a read tends to have different requirements as the game goes on).

If Garmr and Fire go 4 days in a town bloc with neither of them being killed by scum then, yes, there is something to worry about. Right now we have 2 players confident on their reads of each other attempting to work together. Calling this scummy is either town being paranoid (playing to win condition) or scum trying to dismantle it (playing to win condition) so virtually everyone commenting on it are playing to their win condition, and aren't accomplishing a damn thing.

Can we stop talking about things that don't fucking matter for day 1 and lynvh Davsto? (or Scorp).

[ICEninja]

Scorpious, me voting you would have nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with a scummy and opportunistic vote that demonstrates you don't even understand the case against Archmage. The timing and manor with which you jumped on that wagon SCREAMS scum if (probably when) Archmage flips town.

How many more votes do we need for Davsto lynch? There isn't much time left.

[ICEninja]

I think I get to pat myself on the back for pushing that wagon through.

If I had to guess, there's a single scum team of 3 members (only 1 night kill) which just lost 1. Archmage was the competing wagon most of the day, so I'm guessing he's town. The pistachi0n wagon also seemed to form as a counter wagon to Davsto, so I'm going to run with the current assumption that both are town.

Scorp was attempting to derail the Davsto wagon in favor of Archmage. The "prefer mage, support Dave" comment fits perfectly with the tactic of applying suspicion to a scum buddy but not voting them unless necessary, scum had to get on the wagon or else be viewed as more suspicious.

Mario also seemed to want the Davsto stopped as well.

Scumscorp makes a lot of sense that one of the remaining scum wants to be on the wagon where the other doesn't.

Vote Scorpious

.

[ICEninja]

Excuse me, I believe credit for finding Davsto scum and pushing the lynch tips preeeeetty heavily in my favor.

Garmr's case on Mario is good. I might be convinced to vote Mario. Based on where the votes were thrown around, a Mario, Scorp, Davsto scum team makes a lot of sense.

[ICEninja]

So I hunted with my buddy after they were hammered

It mostly looks like you were frustrated at Garmr for pushing the Davsto wagon. I don't...see any hunting, actually.

me and Scorp crossbussed?

Throwing your partner under the bus is one thing. Distancing yourself from your buddy during day 1, after realizing you had messed up by being too close to your other scum buddy? Completely feasible in this situation.

It makes far more sense that scum bussed their goon, and is now having the town sheep them because, "My reads are good, I caught scum, lynch TownX."

Also possible, but I'm wondering if this is a scum slip. I've made some assumptions about there being only 1 scum team based on number of night kills, but I couldn't for a second guess if there was only 1 goon or multiple. I'm not going to let the wording of this cause me to lose too much sleep, but if you flip scum PR it means there is very likely another.

That being said, Davsto's goon flip does mean there is an increased likelihood of scum being on Dav's wagon. I'll take a look at the possibility and decide who I think is the most likely scum on Dav's wagon probably tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

This bugs me. It seems like Ice is grasping for a townread.

You're kidding, right? People have thrown so many town reads at me I'm astounded I lived the night. Honestly I wish people would throw FEWER townreads at me as this is the only game I'm currently playing and being night killed would suck right now.

Also, I was the one who had a legitimate case against Dav, and the first vote, whereas Garmr was just arguing with him. Why is he getting the credit?

Regarding Ice, I think he should elaborate more on why mario is scum. I don't think just saying garmr's case is good justifies it.

Why not? His case was thorough, and I really don't think there's much I could possibly add to it that I haven't already. What's the point of someone making a case at all if everyone else is required to make their own in order to find someone suspicious?

That being said with Mario's odd vote on to Scorp, I feel like a townflip of Scorp increases the chance of Marioscum (as Scorpious is by far the easiest wagon to push at the moment, if he's town) and a scum flip of Scorpious decreases the likelihood of Marioscum, as the right tactic for MarioScorp exScumvaganza would be to attack an easier town target such as pistachi0n.

@Alchemist I think you're right. Scum flip of Dav makes me pretty strongly lean town on pistachi0n.

[ICEninja]

I really really suck at using quotes properly. Everyone should yell at me for making the page uselessly long while quoting an entire massive post despite only responding to select parts of it.

Noted.

Pistachi0n is still my strongest scum read though, so unless someone has a reason she's town that actually attempts to work out her motive and isn't just worthless VCA, I'm not moving.

How's this for an alternative method of persuasion: to my reckoning, no one else seems to be particularly convinced she's scum. You're not really saying much to push people on her. So unless you come up with one HELL of a case or there ends up being new evidence present, I suspect you'll be solo voting pistachi0n all day.

If you're town, I shouldn't even need to point out how bad that would be.

[ICEninja]

You didn't miss anything you just quoted a post that was more than 3 of my screens tall. I don't think you understand what I said, which is ironic considering you calling me a "rig nog" for not reading your post. Whatever the hell that means.

There's no quick way to respond to his post like that on mobile, but look at how I fight quote wars with people. I just make manual quote tags and copy paste the relevant text. It's a little slower at first but once I got the hang of it my posts became clear, easy to read and well organized, which theoretically makes the game more enjoyable for everyone.

Large quote wars are the single easiest ways to lose people.

But I'll drop it now because this is pointless.

[ICEninja]

Looking through All Alone in isolation I see that he made some semblence of a case against pistachi0n. Maybe not "one hell of a case", but something.

That being said, the tunnel has been pretty heavy on pistachi0n all game. The initial vote was based on a meta read which is fine, but isn't going to convince anyone. Then he confirms vote based on vote parking. Then there was a little back and forward where pistachi0n and All Alone were comparing their tiny amounts of content, both seeming to indicate that theirs was better.

All Alone swapped to the Davsto wagon for what seemed like a compromise, after really not saying anything about Davsto all game. Pistachi0n was an alternate wagon that All Alone was pushing all game and continues to tunnel, on account that pistachi0n never really commented on Davsto. I don't really see her commenting on...much of anyone really.

Several valid reasons, but all of them are on the weak side.

The case is alright but just due to circumstances I really don't agree that pistachi0n is scum, and a town flip of her would actually strongly point to All Alone scum, ESPECIALLY if one of the major wagons today (Mario or Scorpious) is scum.

[ICEninja]

Actually I'm starting to feel like pistachi0n is our resident VI, not Archmage He's at least trying. Her current vote is agreeing with Alchemist, who is suspicious of All Alone for being hung up on pistachi0n all day.

I'm really not sure this leans towards an alignment, it just feels lazy and unhelpful. I'm frustrated in my leaning town on pistachi0n.

[ICEninja]

Said that post is probably a vi day 1

You indeed did. Let me rephrase that; I'm starting to agree with Garmr's day 1 read of pistachi0n.

I don't see why you would want more credit.

Fair point. Good job catching Davsto, Garmr!

Explain why his case was thorough.

It just...is pretty good. He presents substantial reason to tie Davsto and Mario together, and it strongly leads me to believe that one of Scorpious and Mario is scum. Having nailed one on day 1, being pretty confident between two players is pretty excellent.

[ICEninja]

whatever.
i really don't care about this game.

This isn't fair to whichever side you share alignment with. Just play the game, man. Make a fucking case on Scorpious and his scum flip is going to give you substantial town cred.

Is it just me or is Scorp's list of scum reads more or less entirely people who suspect him?

[ICEninja]

Why? Garmr ALREADY DID.

[ICEninja]

I'm not overreacting, you're refusing my answer and asking stupid questions. It is irritating me. You didn't like the fact that I agreed with Garmr, but that doesn't change the fact that he made a good case and it made Mario my second biggest scum read after Scorpious.

You want to know what I like? I like the things he posted in 570. If you'd like me to make a case against Mario it would look very remarkably similar to that post, so I'm not going to bother.

[ICEninja]

I don't want you to make a case, I want you to tell me what you like about garmr's case. Like specific points he made or links he connected.

I already linked you the points he made that I like. None of them were bad. Why is this confusing to you? This is the most useless back and forward ever.

[ICEninja]

Scorpious's responses to the inquiries about his quick hammer D1 feel very weak. I'm happy with where my vote is currently.

[ICEninja]

All you proved to me is that you can link someone else's post and call it a case. I'm beginning to get scummy vibes from you because I don't think you actually have a reason to think mm4 is scum because you are scum.

Good. Fucking. God.

Garmr posted a very thorough and convincing case that points to Marioscum after Davsto flipped scum. After I read the case I was convinced that after Scorpious, Mario has the highest chance of being scum.

This REALLY shouldn't be that difficult to wrap your head around, because it's never been scummy to agree with someone's strong case before, from what I've seen anyway.

Anyways, it should be noted that

Mario is at L-1 right now

, and we should proceed with caution. I find him scummy, but I still prefer a Scorpious lynch and I'm not yet interested in declaring intent to hammer.

[ICEninja]

My existence here is spiralling, useless because it is discredited, and nobody will listen to it... even when I vote Scorpious, even when I do state something, people ignore it, unless they need it to make a case on me.

If you legitimately believe Scorpious is scum and you legitimately are town, you'll be in a much better position day 3. I don't like this defeatism at all. Makes me worried that you already know how Scorp is going to flip.

Nobody hammer yet please, we have over a week and I need some time to think about this.

[ICEninja]

At the time of that past, you had made 13 of your current 37 posts. Seems to me like that's enough time to change one's opinion.

[ICEninja]

3dice are you asking me to retype the things that Garmr said? You seem to find me scummy because I'd prefer to post the link instead of actually typing out the things that he said.

[ICEninja]

This game is kind of stagnating. As of right now, I'm pretty OK with either wagon. I'm pretty sure there is exactly 1 scum between them, and if we miss today we'll get scum tomorrow.

I'm not really sure where to go after that, though. I'll need to look at interactions depending on which one flips scum.

[ICEninja]

Because to me, it just looks like you are blindly sheeping.

But here's the thing, it IS sheeping. It isn't blindly, I reviewed the facts for myself, and everything Garmr said checked out. I don't put TOO much stock in to the useless filler stuff, but the interactions between Mario and Davsto kind of looked like how masons or really good friends would interact. Davsto's scumflip proved that they aren't.

I just don't have anything to add beyond Garmr's initial case, because there hasn't been much to go on today except what I already HAVE added (that MM is probtown is Scorp flips scum, for instance) so, as I've said before, it seems really confusing that you're thinking I'm only town if I just regurgitate what Garmr said in my own post. You're literally the only one who cares so I'm pretty much just going to drop this now as it's been nothing but irritating and, as I said recently, one of the most useless back-and-forwards of all time.

[ICEninja]

I prefer a Scorp lynch, but I'm not terribly surprised by the hammer. Discussion had more or less stagnated. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see this guy flip scum.

I'm not following Mario's scum read of Garmr, even if he does flip town. That just makes zero sense to me. If Mario is town, Scorp should be a reasonably easy lynch tomorrow, if he' scum then...well I have no clue really. I don't want to invest a huge amount of effort in to figuring it out unless I see a scum flip though.

[ICEninja]

Mario...Sigh.

Yeah, Scorpious is probscum. Syndesis is town.

Still not super sure on what beyond that, but I'm looking at a pool of 6 for the rest to find the last one. Bleh.

[ICEninja]

Your only two reads are the mod confirmed innocent child and the second best wagon from yesterday?

Excuse me, it was the best wagon yesterday. Scum convinced people it was the second best. And obviously I have reads, but aside from those two it's pretty much a sliding scale from slightly leaning town to slightly leaning scum.

Alchemist and Wanderer were both on the town wagon and not on the scum wagon. Pistachi0n and All Alone seem...alright. Archmage still felt like the VI lynchbait. You (3dice) I'm having a hard time reading. Some things suggest town, some things suggest scum.

Nothing is particularly concrete, and being as confident as I am about Scorpious, I really don't see much reason to make a case for anyone else at the moment.

Let's just say this for now, in this scale:

Wont vote today:

Syndesis
All Alone
pistachi0n
Archmage

Probably won't vote today:

3dice

Will take some serious convincing to get me to vote today:

Alchemist
Wanderer

Will probably be voting for the duration of today:

Scorpious

Consider that, with the exception of the first and last, a very weak sliding scale of town to scum reads right now. Tomorrow, who knows. I'll probably have to go back to reading the game thoroughly to find scum.

Vote Scorpious

.

[ICEninja]

What distribution of scum do you see across Mario and Scorpious's wagons?

At least 1 scum was on Mario's wagon. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were 2, as scum would be terrified to have 2 consecutive scum lynches, especially without a PR night kill.

This is, however, assuming a Scorpious scum flip. Which I am absolutely assuming. I might reconsider should I be wrong about him.

Do you think scum bussed/attacked/scumread one another yesterDay?

Virtually everyone was at least partially scum reading Scorpious so I'm sure.

Is there a strong reason for the Garmr kill?

Aside from you, he was the only obvtown. I saw the kill coming a mile away. Based on the fact that scum didn't target you N1, and Garmr was successfully killed N2, we either don't have a doctor or he's bad.

[ICEninja]

Actually how about we toss Archmage in to the "probably won't vote today" instead of "won't vote today".

[ICEninja]

I apologize if I sound rude, but I'm doing my best to sort out this game. The way I've seen it is you placed a vote on mario yesterday and were struggling to reiterate the reason why, and now you started of today with only two strong reads has appeared scummy. I do like your list though and it does seem logical. Maybe could you explain/reference a post where you explained your tenacity for lynching scorpious?

Ok. So. I apologize if I sound rude but you really did a lousy job following the game yesterday. Let's break this down a touch:

The way I've seen it is you placed a vote on mario yesterday

Could you please link me to when this happened?

and were struggling to reiterate the reason why

I expressed

extremely clearly and concisely

why I found Mario to be the

second

most likely scum, and likewise stated very clearly that if Scorp is scum, Mario is probably not.

Maybe could you explain/reference a post where you explained your tenacity for lynching scorpious?

A very quick ISO check of me could show you the post where I vote Scorpious. That might be a good place to start with understanding why I wanted him lynched.

There wasn't much of substance during D2 really, and it mostly went off of how D1 played. I still haven't forgotten about how bad Scorp's vote on Archmage was D1, either.

[ICEninja]

Scorp's claim is fake. Scum claims it all the time since a commuter will never be night killed, so it explains their lingering presence in the game. Also, in my 30ish games, I've seen zero legitimate commuters. They don't really fit in to mini games, PARTICULARLY ones that only have a single night kill faction.

Also, this is straight from the wiki:

Most Commuters cannot Commute each Night. Instead, they generally have Odd-Night or Even-Night modifiers attached.

A straight up commuter in a one-kill has just about zero chance of happening.

Unless we have someone who can support his claim, perhaps a vigilante who attempted to shoot him but failed, this is as good as a scum claim to me. WORST POSSIBLE unlikely case scenario, he's telling the truth, and he's a massive liability to town. He'll never be cleared, since a cop couldn't clear him, and he'll never be night killed, since scum couldn't kill him, AND he's currently voting

me

, so he'd be in lylo with town suspecting him and him not being able to actually read anyone.

Nah, lynch this guy. Dollars to donuts he's scum PR.

As for anyone's case on anyone else, my thoughts on it are irrelevant because we're lynching Scorpious today.

[ICEninja]

When I'm dead tomorrow, take notes of people who have resisted this wagon today.

[ICEninja]

There's no such thing as a town aligned player that is unable to be night killed in any way in a mini normal game. GG.

[ICEninja]

If he actually had a role PM that said odd/even night commuter or one shot commuter he would have said that.

[ICEninja]

My general idea of who people should look at after I'm dead on D4 is:
Alechemist, 3dice, Wanderer. Add Archmage if Scorp somehow ends up being town (not happening).

I approve of intent to hammer, and also approve of town discussing things out a bit. That being said, after everyone's had their chance to say what needs to be said, don't be scared to vote. I've said plenty, everyone knows my views, and I've done what I need to. Town's probably got this, and I've done plenty to make sure you guys can sink this.

Everyone else give your thoughts. I'll be continuing to comment on what people post, but you assholes all doomed me by calling me confirmed town by this point

[ICEninja]

No.

[ICEninja]

Have you found even one single account of a town commuter able to commute every single night without restriction?

[ICEninja]

Also, Scorp is just throwing up names. He isn't paying attention to things the way town should be, in order to find out who is scum.

Scum doesn't need to read the game and follow what's going on in order to win, really.

[ICEninja]

Wanderer's L-1 post could potentially be interpreted as being frustrated with being stuck with unfortunately low quality scum buddies.

Pistachi0n, could you clarify your townread on Alchemist for me? I'm having a really tough time deciding which between [3dice, Wanderer, Alchemist] is most likely to be the final scum. You, Archmage, All Alone, and obviously Syndesis don't make a lot of sense to me as the final scum, though Archmage could be one of the last two if by some seriously odd situation Scorp is town. Insight on why you think Alchemist is a strong town read could be helpful.

[ICEninja]

While that's true, it means he was against the Davsto wagon. He was also for the Mario wagon, which could point to scum. I'm looking for things OTHER than votes/unvotes that would suggest he isn't the last scum, because honestly the things you're pointing out point him as scummier than anyone else after Scorpious.

[ICEninja]

For the record, I've been on to Scorp since day 1. I didn't even really need to dig all that deep or do much in the way of extra work to come to the conclusion that he's scum after his early vote on Archmage.

[ICEninja]

That's really solid, Archie. I'll really need to take a look at Alchemist and 3dice, who are also solid contenders for the last scum slot, but that post is a really good starting ground for Wanderer that I'll have to fact check and stuff.

[ICEninja]

We aren't lynching not-Scorpious today.

[ICEninja]

Those factors do not outweigh the fact that he is clearly not a full town commuter, and yet claimed that.

Though I swear to god if he flips VT I'm never playing with him again.

[ICEninja]

I've discussed plenty.

[ICEninja]

Honestly I'm not even sure roleblocker can stop it.

[ICEninja]

Does anyone feel like there is any particular reason to continue drawing the day out?

[ICEninja]

People who I will not allow in my townbloc were the people most interested in it. I refuse to participate.

[ICEninja]

So I didn't want to say this but it seems like there isn't a huge chance I'll live the night so I'd better say it .

Pistachi0n dropped a subtle but fairly substantial town tell, but I really don't want to discuss it. I believe discussing the tell would be more beneficial to scum than town. If you trust me that I'm town (should be pretty easy to do when I'm dead) then just do your best to take my word for it.

[ICEninja]

Well this game has stagnated something awful.

[ICEninja]

Scorp isn't doing much, Archmage is the one who asked for time to catch up and now has.

Go for it Synd.

[ICEninja]

Doubt it.

[ICEninja]

So...anybody know any good jokes?

[ICEninja]

No there's only 2 dice.

[ICEninja]

Next avatar will do it. I believe!

I have to say for a game with 2 mods, I haven't seen a lot of Monkeyman.

[ICEninja]

Fuck this game setup, fuck the original mod for flaking, fuck Monkey so much for this travesty of a game.

So I'm actually not JUST a cop, I was a

ninja

cop. I was about 99% sure that because I was a uniquely modified cop, I was that

one

allowed semi-normal role in a game that the HIDER CLAIM WAS BULLSHIT. The fact that it was real was just such horse shit, an unlimited hider without any possible counter for scum? I didn't think it could be possible.

How this game got through review is COMPLETELY beyond me and this combined with an ongoing game that I replaced out of basically is causing me to quit mafia again.

Thanks Monkey, you

fucking suck at this

.

[ICEninja]

Err, commuter not hider sorry. I get them mixed up.

[ICEninja]

I basically figured I was dead N3 so I didn't really worry too much about it. Though from what it seemed like in the dead thread I died because of pushing pistachtown too hard.

Which basically means I died for nothing because someone voted pistach ANYWAY.

[ICEninja]

From where I stand I played this game great. I found scum day 1, and based on the information I had, Scorp

was

scum. My push on him was totally correct in any setup made by anybody with any reasonable level of competence.

I was also totally fine dying N3 because I left 3 confirmed town alive against what should have been just 1 scum.

But yeah, town voted for the person who would ONLY be scum if he was godfather, as opposed to you who basically had to be scum in any situation OTHER than pistach being godfather. It was a low % play to vote for you.

[ICEninja]

Farside is the only reason this game continued. I'm very glad you were at least here to make sure this shitfest was seen through to the end.

May we find better luck in other hobbies, and may Mafia be kinder to us when we return.