Mini 1786: Inspirational Mafia (Game Over)

[Thestatusquo]

UT. I had decided I was going to proxy my vote to you before the game started...So, and this is completely your fault, for the first time in my illustrious mafia playing career I'm going to have to VOTE: thestatusquo

Also, a note for anyone who may not know me. My name (in real life) is Shea, and generally I prefer to be referred to as such. Its not a big deal if you call me status or tsq or whatever, I won't be mad and I won't have trouble following along, but I wanted to throw that out there since I have friends in this game who have known me forever, and they'll probably end up calling me Shea, and I don't want anyone to be confused by that.

[Thestatusquo]

Thestatusquo

Why are you going to sin now?

This is interesting. On the one hand it feels like it could be vaguely scummy to attack the person doing the weirdest thing (self voting.) in order to have an easy attack. On the other, no one else is really doing it so it would be hard to say that creature really think he would be benefiting any actual wagon. In addition, he seems to be looking around for things that are off in order to get us out of the stage where we have low town information, which is a lot of early townie points in my book.

I'm thinking that this post looks pretty town.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes. This is a serious wagon on scum.

Should I assume sarcasm please? Or am I missing something?

I am not one for jokes nor sarcasm. MOI is assuredly scum.

At post 23? By what logic?

You seem to be unusually resistant to the idea of voting MOI. Why?

Do you think his reaction is scummy? Given his newness and given that it would legitimately be seen as pretty surprising to have a player declare that his vote is a serious attack on scum this early, isn't this pretty much textbook for how you would expect a newer town player to react?

[Thestatusquo]

I didn't answer your question. I attacked you for answering it. Nice deflection though, you managed to look like you were responding to me while completely dodging my question.

[Thestatusquo]

*attacked you for asking it.

[Thestatusquo]

Once again, I didn't answer your question. I attacked you for answering it.

UT, will you vote this guy so I can vote this guy?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: katsuki

[Thestatusquo]

Wanna expand upon that or???

[Thestatusquo]

Part of the problem I have with Katsuki's play here is that its inconsistent. He seems like he is unsure if he wants to be super serious (berating a newbie, attacking people for answering questions, voting me seriously in response to a wagon.) but at the same time he wants us to view his actions as jokey and not that serious (fake daycop result as reason for his vote.)

I don't like this difference in tone with regards to his accountability vs. everyone elses.

[Thestatusquo]

is that a serious claim? if so, why come out with it unprompted this rapidly? I really don't like it either way and you're being really evasive, so

VOTE: Katsuki

Don't like this post, but I'll really know how I feel about it once either xyzzy or katsuki flips. Noting so I don't miss it when I reread later. Also worth noting that xyzzy is the third vote on the wagon (considering he knew I was going to be voting katsuki since I'm proxied to UT.)

[Thestatusquo]

is that a serious claim? if so, why come out with it unprompted this rapidly? I really don't like it either way and you're being really evasive, so

VOTE: Katsuki

Don't like this post, but I'll really know how I feel about it once either xyzzy or katsuki flips. Noting so I don't miss it when I reread later. Also worth noting that xyzzy is the third vote on the wagon (considering he knew I was going to be voting katsuki since I'm proxied to UT.)

>talks about issues with my accountability
>takes 0 accountability for own vote on wagon and shifts responsibility to someone else

hue

Are you joking? I said why I don't like your posts. I led and started this wagon. In what way is that unaccountable? Do you not try to look at the players who are voting with you to discern their alignment? Are you really trying to claim that someone doing that is likely anti town? Thats bizarre.

Third vote on wagon you guys don't even need to read further, Shea is obvscum.

#Jeeptell

Congrats. You just fell for one of my favorite trap scum tells. It's called the "deliberately weak argument." How it works is you make an argument and then somewhere in there you throw in a point that is deliberately bad. Easy to refute. It's a motivation tell to determine if someone is arguing in good faith or not. See, town players tend to address the argument in its entirety, because they want to evaluate the argument and they are interested in determining the alignment of the person making it. Scum, however, don't care about that. They are just arguing to score points. They go directly for the deliberately weak argument and attack it, and avoid the rest of the argument entirely.

You want to know which pattern describes what you just did?

I'll give you a hint. It starts with Sc. And ends with Umfucker.

Playtime is over.

confirm vote: katsuki

[Thestatusquo]

In other news, I think UT might be scum. I'm not willing to explain right now because I want to continue reading something.

[Thestatusquo]

that is L-2. No one can claim ignorance of that fact.

BBT, why would you put someone to L-2 without so much as posting any explanation for why you were voting for them?

[Thestatusquo]

Why are you worried about a scum read being placed at L-2?

I'm worried about you placing someone at l2 without any demonstration of why you are voting for them.

[Thestatusquo]

Umm, have you been reading? Do I have to repeat everything that everyone has said?

Yeah, you do.

Why do you think Katsuki is scum?

I would like you to answer the same damn question.

[Thestatusquo]

Mostly out this weekend. stong townread on BBT and magna. I like the kat case but I'll give it until I can read in full before I LOLhammer. tsq is a little jumpy for my liking, and it looks like he enjoys picking on newbs. which is hilarious, but kinda meh.

What? What have I done that was picking on noobs? My play was the opposite, I attacked katsuki for what looked to me to be setting up an attack on a new player...

[Thestatusquo]

wtf are you even talking about bussing UT anyways.

I was gonna say things have changed with your #113, but #114 is the same VI shotty of 2010. Pity.

Wow so ad hom is your plan. This is even worse. A claim may have been a bit rash to ask for, it is still early but you are suspect #1 with tsq at #2 and ut in third.

So let me get this straight. Your scum list assumes that as scum I attacked my scum buddy out of the blue, made him the number one target of the town when previously there was no pressure on him, laid a trap for him, sprung that trap, confirm voted him, and pushed him to l-1 and now (as of this post) am happily advocating his lynch if hes not going to claim?


Cool.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, MoI. No, I don't think I've ever proxied my vote before as either town or scum on forums.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, have you been known to powerbus as scum (regardless of whether or not it's reasonable to think that your play here could be)?

I have certainly been known to bus, but I can't remember a scum game where I bused my partner so early and so aggressively. That doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened, but I can't remember one. I've played a lot of mafia and most of it was over 4 years ago.

I have one game that might be considered power busing, actually now that I think about it. Hold on let me dig it up to see if the play pattern looks like this. (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct%5B%5D=0)

(as an aside, I think meta is going to be pretty useless for reading me, since most meta on me is like 4 years old and I doubt I'm the same person and I like to think I'm a significantly better mafia player now.)

[Thestatusquo]

What? What have I done that was picking on noobs? My play was the opposite, I attacked katsuki for what looked to me to be setting up an attack on a new player...

Aside from picking on me, a noob...

Is this what it was about? Why did you feel the need to be intentionally obtuse about the whole thing if you're voting me for that simple reason? I was not attacking the new player, merely trying to gather some info on how they think while it was still early in the game.

That would also partially explain you're utterly ludicrous attack on me, but it does not change the fact that you intentionally took everything in your grasp to twist in as scummy a way as you could, misrepresenting the majority, if not all the things I've said thus far.

I'm voting you for (now) 5 reasons.

1) I felt that your question to kage was setting up an attack on a newer player. I really didn't like the line of questioning on that slot in particular which is why I then attacked you for asking it. Your response to me didn't help, as you refused to answer my question and attacked me for "answering your question for him" which I didn't do. I never answered your question. I attacked you for asking it.

2) I feel like your tone with regards to yourself is wildly different from how you are interacting with other players. You want other people to be accountable for the things they do in thread, which is great, but you don't seem to want to hold yourself to the same standard. You continued to joke vote MoI while attacking other players for not being serious enough. You joke fake claimed. Basically it looked like you were trying to attack players for serious things while, when people called your behavior into question for similar reasons you basically were like "oh come on its still RVS"

3) One of the main things I look for in scum reading is what are the motivations of players when they're arguing with you. I wrote a whole long treatise about this in mafia discussion a long time ago. I think there is a fundamental difference in the way that town players and scum players argue. Town players tend to grant the possibility that the person they are arguing with is town, while scum players do not. This leads to different kinds of arguments. A town argument typically involves things like addressing all (or at least most) of the points, conceding arguments that they agree with, looking for other things about the player which are relevant. That is because town are interested in alignment. Scum are not, when they argue it typically looks like someone trying to score points in a debate. They attack weak arguments. They don't give credence to good points. They just simply point and try to make the other person look like an idiot because that makes them look like the "winner" of the argument. I feel like your arguing style much more closely aligns with this second pattern in the game then it does the first.

4) More to the point, you fell for a motivation tell that I deliberately threw out there to see who would attack it. You argued not in order to discern my alignment, but rather you attempted to discredit me by going for the low hanging fruit of the deliberately weak argument.

5) Your refusal to seriously claim is deliberately anti town because you're upset. Town refusing to claim (and fake claiming) when they're at l-1 hurts town in general. If you are town, I suggest you cut it out immediately. More importantly, I've seen town use this tactic far less than scum, in the hopes that the refusal to claim will diffuse the bandwagon.


Hope that helps!

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think thats a fair characterization of Katsukis post at all dude.

Like, its pretty clear to me from context that what he is saying is "I'm not going to claim, so you guys can kill me if you want."

I don't think there's any reasonable interpretation of that post that implies that katsuki thinks he is imminently likely to be hammered without a claim. If anything, I think its basically saying the opposite. Something along the lines of "You idiots know I'm not going to claim to this so just stop the nonsense because you know you're not going to just lynch me without a claim."

Which is anti town, as I explained in my last post, but the attack you're making is twisted and bizarre.

[Thestatusquo]

I know its not ideal, but this might be helpful to you

https://talktyper.com/

[Thestatusquo]

I think a lot of the issue isn't with when you're talking about posts that have already been said.

I'm much more concerned with what I perceive as a lack of original thought, rather than the fact that you don't reiterate posts.

Like, I would like to see some thoughts on the game that AREN'T just "I agree with yosarian2." Are you actually saying that literally everything you think about the game has already been said? I don't think thats true, and if it is then its pretty problematic.

[Thestatusquo]

For the love of god please do.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think its fair to say that anyone is asking you to comment on every little thought. I am asking for literally ANY thought you might have.

Something that someone has said that you disagree with, and why.

A player you think is likely to be town and why.

Anything really?

We can all agree there is a rather large space between "every little thing" and "any opinion at all on anything"

[Thestatusquo]

At this point you've spent far more time and words posting about why you can't post than you have talking about things in the game. If you had put that thought and effort into thinking and talking about the game, we would have no problem here.

I'm not going to comment on mental disabilities or physical handicaps. It's unfortunate that you have impediments to playing that you have to overcome, but I do expect you to contribute. That's a pretty basic requirement for playing in a game.

[Thestatusquo]

Lowell, you haven't answered my question.

[Thestatusquo]

Fair enough.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think I am attempting to get a newbie to look bad. I am attempting to get a newbie to contribute to the game.

I have not attacked kage or expressed suspicion at all. I am simply stating an expectation: You must contribute to the game. This is the same expectation I have for everyone, and as you can see in my response to SS's latest post, I haven't been shy in telling people that they need to contribute more.

I don't want you to hammer. I want to give kats a better chance to realize hes acting in an anti town fashion by refusing to claim and actually claim. Not some fake "You know I'm just going to claim a PR" bullshit.

There's also plenty of people on the kats wagon who need to firmly tell us why they're there. And I don't want the day to end until they have taken firmer stands than just voting for him without explaining why.

[Thestatusquo]

I thought I bent over backwards to be polite but ok...

[Thestatusquo]

I don't understand why those lines make you think I'd be scum if he flipped scum. I don't even know how those things are related. I want a claim from Katsuki. This is pretty standard operating procedure. If he steadfastly refuses to give one then I will still lynch him of course, but there is a whole lot of time left in the day and no rush to do it immediately. I'd like to give him a chance to change his mind. I think it would be beneficial to the town either way. The other thing is there are a lot of scum on his wagon, I think. The speed at which it grew and the fact that very few people on it actually stated their suspicions makes me think that.

I don't think how either of those thoughts make me likely to be scum if katsuki flips scum. The other part of your thought, which is that I would be town if he flips town makes even less sense to me. I can't even really think of a reason why it would be true.

[Thestatusquo]

I doubt katsuki would agree with the assertion that he is acting anti-town.

[Thestatusquo]

4. SnarkySnowman
7. MagnaofIllusion
8. Kmd4390
12. Lowell
13. Untrod Tripod

Here is a list of people I would like to hear a hell of a lot more from before the day ends.

[Thestatusquo]

What? I didn't like you because you were an asshole. It had nothing to do with you being new.

I like tons of new people.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I've done a pretty good job of explaining the things I've taken issue with as they happened. Feel free to read back. I don't have any other scum reads, but I do have a lot of things that have happened that I don't like and I will have a lot of information after a flip.

[Thestatusquo]

I want to give kats a better chance to realize hes acting in an anti town fashion by refusing to claim and actually claim. Not some fake "You know I'm just going to claim a PR" bullshit.

Im still vla. But I basically agree with this

I'm still spiteful over that Serotonin game. I can be lynched 100 times over with these shit wagons and will still never claim. If the other 9 town players want to do their best to lose the game, that's on them.
______________________________________________________________________

I'm incredibly tired right now and need to catch up, but kagesong has spent far more words and posts explaining why he can't respond to me than actually responding to me. It could've taken him no more than 3 lines to at least explain how anything he has seen this far is indicative of scum and not town, but instead he's chosen to make no less than 3 posts detailing why he is incapable of doing so.

Care to tell us what you think of the players on the "shit wagon" instead of just going full woe is me?

[Thestatusquo]

no, he has way longer than that.

unvote

We are not ending this day until we hear more from people who are not at all involved with this day. I refuse to let them skate by like that.

[Thestatusquo]

In fact Lowell might be scummy for 194 if Katsuki is scum; it's possible that he's trying to salvage a bad d1 and leverage the existing sentiment of kats scum implying shea scum into a day two mislynch.

For now though, I'm going to join Shea. Honestly partially because I'll be bored if this game goes into night too early. But partially because I thought snarky's posting so far was ever so slightly scummy and I really would like to see more from him (and others too).

Unvote

I really really really don't like this post.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Katsuki

We're gunna keep him at l-2. I don't want the day to end without people chiming in but I also do not want to give smoke and cover for potential katsuki scumbuddies to quietly let the wagon dissipate.

[Thestatusquo]

Because its overly cautious without a reason to be and because I think you've been buddying up to me all day and this is an extension of that.

To elaborate further.

Your previous post explains that it makes sense to go down to l-2 when there is an expressed desire to hammer, but that doesn't mean that theres any reason to go down to -3. You basically unvoted for no reason, and when people do that it makes me try to figure out what the reason is. It's not because you think he's likely to get quick lynched out of nowhere. It might be because you don't think the wagon is good, which is clearly also not true, at least from your previous statements. Your unvote then only makes sense to me in the context of hoping that the wagon will sort of diffuse or hoping to be able to get a counter wagon quietly going. Those two options seem way more likely than anything else to me. There simply is no other reason to unvote. Your vague assertion that SS is scummy also adds onto this suspicion, especially given the fact that SS has made exactly 2 of them today, and neither of them have content in them that you could possibly find scummy. So, it looks like you're setting up to give yourself outs to start or join onto a counter wagon on a lurker.

I also think you've taken every opportunity to defend me today, which is not something that town typically does. You say that you are town reading me, which is all well and good, but I don't typically defend my reads quite that stridently this early on, and I don't really think I've seen you do that with anyone else in this game. Given the lack of motivation and the fact that you specifically couched your post in the language of "Agreeing with shea/joining shea" even though your unvote was not remote similar to my unvote in either motivation or function, makes me think that you're buddying to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, quoting Shea's 151 for reasoning, next time I check in, I fully intend to vote Katsuki officially. Anyone who does not agree with a hammer, please remove your vote. AGAIN IF NO VOTES ARE MOVED I ASSUME THAT EVERYONE VOTING IS FINE WITH A HAMMER.

Shea, why didn't you unvote after this post? I understand your reasoning for unvoting, but shouldn't this post have given you the same reaction.

Yes. It should have. I missed it. I don't know why.

Shea: it's only been a day and a few hours since you posted this, so if you don't have anything further to say about it yet, that's understandable, but are you ready to explain what you meant in post 103?

No.

[Thestatusquo]

Having an opinion that its too early to end the day and taking actions to ensure it doesnt happen is neither coaching nor manipulation.

I'm fine with him at l-1.

I just dont want you hammering when there's no fucking reason to.

But your subtle (not really subtle, but you probably think it is) well poisoning is noted.

[Thestatusquo]

Buddying is something that you'll find pervades my play as both town and scum. I tend to find townreads more easily than scumreads. Giving reasoning for townreads early is often a matter of whether or not I feel like elaborating on them. If you want me to I can probably fish around my recent games and find some where I've done similar stating and defending townreads early.

would appreciate it.

[Thestatusquo]

Where in that post do I even come close to saying you're attacking me personally?

[Thestatusquo]

Who am I coaching? What? People keep saying that I'm coaching but in order to be coaching I need to be coaching someone.

No one has posited who that fucking is yet.

Shotty you are poisoning my well. Do you know what well poisoning is? What? How is me saying you're poisoning my well me saying youre attacking me personally.

You make my head hurt.

[Thestatusquo]

1) Cuz I felt like it. It's something I've done a lot in IRL games and I've liked the kind of discussion it generates.
2) Because I got a list of players and went down it and deleted people that I remembered contributing. It's possible that I missed creature,

Going back through ISO I think my inclination to leave him off is correct. He has 17 posts today, and while theres not much in depth content, there is certainly some, which is way more than the others on my list.

Shotty. Well poisoning is presenting information in such a way (usually preemptively) that it discredits a person. Usually the information is either false or from a skewed perspective. It has nothing to do with personal attacks. Specifically, I am saying that you characterizing my desire to not have the day end early and taking steps to avoid that "manipulation and coaching" is unwarranted and attempts to discount my opinions and actions rather than actually arguing against them.

It's textbook well poisoning.

The coaching I already addressed. This is the third time you've said I'm coaching unless I'm mistaken. In mafia the term coaching typically means telling a lesser experienced scumbuddy what to do subtly. Hence it is incoherent to accuse someone of "coaching" without saying who it is that they're coaching. you haven't told me who I'm coaching. Coaching without a scum buddy? We just call that "having opinions on the game."

[Thestatusquo]

My main read on ut is that he has lurked most of today, and none of his posts where scum hunting, just defences and filler, but with 6 posts it's hard to tell. I do find it strange that he disappeared after a little suspicion was cast.

He was V/LA most of today. He has said this. I know for a fact he was in Columbus this weekend for an audition. Keep in mind this day has been absurdly short and we got out of RVS very quickly.

I think this point is disingenuous.

Actually, I think most of the things you've posted here read a lot like "looking for things you could conceivably attack without checking into them thoroughly." and not "trying to find scum."

hmmmmm. I'll have to look into that tomorrow in more depth.

[Thestatusquo]

1) Cuz I felt like it. It's something I've done a lot in IRL games and I've liked the kind of discussion it generates.
2) Because I got a list of players and went down it and deleted people that I remembered contributing. It's possible that I missed creature,

Going back through ISO I think my inclination to leave him off is correct. He has 17 posts today, and while theres not much in depth content, there is certainly some, which is way more than the others on my list.

Shotty. Well poisoning is presenting information in such a way (usually preemptively) that it discredits a person. Usually the information is either false or from a skewed perspective. It has nothing to do with personal attacks. Specifically, I am saying that you characterizing my desire to not have the day end early and taking steps to avoid that "manipulation and coaching" is unwarranted and attempts to discount my opinions and actions rather than actually arguing against them.

It's textbook well poisoning.

The coaching I already addressed. This is the third time you've said I'm coaching unless I'm mistaken. In mafia the term coaching typically means telling a lesser experienced scumbuddy what to do subtly. Hence it is incoherent to accuse someone of "coaching" without saying who it is that they're coaching. you haven't told me who I'm coaching. Coaching without a scum buddy? We just call that "having opinions on the game."

I'm not trying to discredit you per say, and perhaps it is personal for me, but I've experienced the biased wrath of TSQ before, so yes I am quick to look skeptically at you.

How about instead of giving us a boo hoo sob story about how I've been angry at you before you answer the fucking points that i made. How is it manipulation to have opinions on when the day should end and then take DIRECT PERSONAL ACTION to make sure that that this happens the way you want it to. Who am I coaching? I don't give a fuck if I was mean to you 8 years ago. That isn't an answer to either of the direct callouts I made at your hamfisted attack.

[Thestatusquo]

Summary of thoughts on the day:

1) I am not unhappy about the lynch, though I am a little bit unhappy about the way it happened.

2) If I had to pick a list of top suspects going into day 2 it would look like this(in no particular order:
DrShotty: His posts, as I've said look like someone who is not trying to scum but just looking for anything he can post about.
MoI: His last post rubbed me the wrong way. I feel very similar about it as I do about shotty. Its a post with a lot of content but when you dig deep down into it it doesn't look like very much scumhunting to me. Just a bunch of questions that are only tangientally related to the game.
implosion: Already well-documented. I'll feel a lot better about Implosion if Kats flips town.
UT: Reasons that I don't want to mention yet.
Lowell: His posts read really off to me. I'll have to reread some old games. He only seems to be half paying attention. That could be null though.
Bunch of people who have not contributed much

3) If I had to pick a list of town people it would look like this:
Xyzzy

4) Looking over the list I have a lot more suspects than I have people I'm reasonably comfortable with. If Kats flips town that means that I'll be able to cross off some people from my scum list, most notably implosion, but also a couple of the people who jumped onto the wagon without much justification, as well as Kage, because I don't think hammering in the manner in which they did makes much sense from a scum perspective?

5) On the subject of Kage, I think I would be more comfortable if they replaced out. This is because part of me is focusing on the mental disabilities they mentioned earlier, and I'm hesitant to attack a lot of what they're doing/read it in the way that I typically would because I have those thoughts in the back of my mind. If Kage is scum who hammered his scum buddy there, I would be forced to conclude that they are using claims of mental illness to gain an advantage in the game. I really really really hope this isn't true. As someone who has suffered from mental health issues myself, it would make me blindingly angry. :/ I feel bad saying this but its a relevant part of my post day thought process.

PEDIT Addressed to shotty in particular. When I have the power to make sure we don't lynch by unvoting, how is it "claiming more power than [1] have" to say that I will unvote in order to stop a quick hammer? In fact, if I had stayed unvoted he wouldn't have been hammered. I had the exact power I was claiming.

You also missed coaching, which is strange considering its been the major thing you've said about me today and I've addressed it pretty thoroughly.

[Thestatusquo]

Are you literally the dumbest person alive? Well poisoning is saying something that is a mischaracterization in order to discredit someones opinions. Not saying "I think you are doing this thing and I think you are scum from it."

Oh my fucking god. What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Thestatusquo]

Bruhhhhh

[Thestatusquo]

Tides changed? What the actual fuck. You mean when I said I wanted him to be at l-2 so he wasn't quick hammered by you and then that wasn't an issue anymore so I revoted? That is one fucking GIANT mischaracterization.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, l1 is ok because the reason I didn't want it to be l1 was because you expressed that you were going to hammer. Then you were already on the wagon so that wasn't going to happen.

Are you actually this dumb or what?

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like that last post from creature too much tbh.

It throws a lot of half-suspicions around while managing to take a firm position on exactly nothing.

[Thestatusquo]

You're bad at reading.

[Thestatusquo]

no, I literally already answered that exact question. Literally the exact question.

[Thestatusquo]

Just because you were not the one who asked the question does not mean it was not asked and answered.

Pro-tip: There are more people in the thread than just you.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, quoting Shea's 151 for reasoning, next time I check in, I fully intend to vote Katsuki officially. Anyone who does not agree with a hammer, please remove your vote. AGAIN IF NO VOTES ARE MOVED I ASSUME THAT EVERYONE VOTING IS FINE WITH A HAMMER.

Shea, why didn't you unvote after this post? I understand your reasoning for unvoting, but shouldn't this post have given you the same reaction.

Yes. It should have. I missed it. I don't know why.

Shea: it's only been a day and a few hours since you posted this, so if you don't have anything further to say about it yet, that's understandable, but are you ready to explain what you meant in post 103?

No.

[Thestatusquo]

You say one or two, but it was literally only kage who had expressed intent to hammer besides yourself. He did it in a weird way and I missed it.

Like, so here's the thing. What is your actual attack here? Your argument is that I knew kage was going to hammer and deliberately unvoted to look town (somehow, even though I think the fact that I've got attacked for it makes that a dubious claim in and of itself) and then revoted to set it up because I actually wanted a quickhammer and was setting it up?

Does that sound even remotely plausible to you?

I guess it does. Your mind works in bizarre ways.

[Thestatusquo]

shotty would you be so kind as to provide me with a recent game in which you were scum and a recent game you were town?


I'm also still waiting on implosions examples of him buddying as town.

[Thestatusquo]

Got any old ones then?

And I think that a player saying they were unvoting because they literally agreed with me that it was too early to lynch is a little bit of a stretch as support for your argument.

[Thestatusquo]

lol.

[Thestatusquo]

You managed to say something dumb while not answering my question.

[Thestatusquo]

Ironically, that particular quote was directed at shotty, roughly 5-6 years ago.

[Thestatusquo]

Old games will work. They wont be ideal, but basically I just want to get a handle on whether this sort of inane argumentation is part of your town game.

[Thestatusquo]

danke

[Thestatusquo]

Re: implo. If you look at my post, the main 2 reasons I'm leery of implosion have to do with buddying and his unvote on the katsuki wagon, which I explained in depth. The reason I thought it was suspicious is because I thought the most two likely motivations were scum-scum motivations. If katsuki is town, neither of those explanations are possible, therefore I would lose half of the reason I'm suspicious of implo. The buddying thing has been claimed to be meta. We'll see if I actually get meta or not from him and if I agree, but you can see how removing half of a reasoning behind a case would make you more likely to think the person town.

Because UT is doing a thing. I don't want him to stop doing the thing. If I divulge what thing he is doing he will stop doing it. This is pretty basic.

[Thestatusquo]

The buddying and the unvote thing are separate points.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I an leery of implo for two reasons.

1) The unvote doesn't have town motivation from me. I think there are two likely motivations for it. Both of them are from a scum partner scum partner perspective. If Kats isn't scum, these likely motivations obviously aren't true. This suspicion stops being "I think this is likely to come from scum." and starts being "I don't know why this happened so its null."

2) Imploscumbuddying is still totally possible. Which is why I said something along the lines of "I would start to feel better about him" and not "I would think he's town."

[Thestatusquo]

"TSQ WILL LOOK LIKE TOWN OVER A KAGE SCUMFLIP BUT DON'T LET SHEA OFF, I CAN EASILY SEE IT BEING A BUS"

What? You are saying that the town tomorrow should lynch kage and if they do it will a bus on my part, regardless of what my position on this hypothetical lynch is?

That doesn't make any fucking sense. And if that's not what you mean what else could you possibly mean? The only lynch is you. Am I bussing you?

[Thestatusquo]

Still want games from implo.

[Thestatusquo]

I was the most garbage vote on katsuki? I know its 4/20 but you must be high as fuck right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Well then allow me to improve the level of their play. Fearless and hyperaggressive is the only right way to play town.

would you use either of these words to describe your play thus far?

[Thestatusquo]

I don't want to harp on it too much because it might be just a theory point, but not only has lowell in my opinion been fearful and not even a little bit aggressive, he's been subtly taking pot shots at anyone whose play I WOULD describe using those words.

But I really need to gather my thoughts about today before I make another post. I have a lot that I think I want to talk about.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I prefer SS to lowell.

Can we not do this again, though. We have a million things to discuss again, can we not lynch 5 days into day again?

Do you think that town players can have a "oh shit day's about to end and I've done nothing"? Moment?

[Thestatusquo]

Re: Coaching. If you are going to accuse someone of coaching you have to say who they're coaching. It is not coaching to have strong opinions on how things should happen in a game of mafia. I was accused of this yesterday multiple times and now you're accusing implo of it as well. Who is he coaching? If you can't answer that question its a really stupid argument.

[Thestatusquo]

@tsq- I don't, actually. Town have "meh, oops, missed that one, guess I'll catch up tomorrow" moments. Or a "well I wasn't very helpful today, but I won't post at the last minute to confuse everyone" moments. Been there plenty.

Some other thoughts:
townvibes from shotty. This is almost entirely meta. He was scum in one of my games recently and in this he seems... happier, sort of.

Buddying me won't make me lower my

FoS

Is that game recent? Or is it ongoing or what?

[Thestatusquo]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30908

:/

I think saying you have a read based on someone being scum in an ongoing game is on the wrong side of the don't talk about ongoing games rule.

[Thestatusquo]

Re: Coaching. If you are going to accuse someone of coaching you have to say who they're coaching. It is not coaching to have strong opinions on how things should happen in a game of mafia. I was accused of this yesterday multiple times and now you're accusing implo of it as well. Who is he coaching? If you can't answer that question its a really stupid argument.

I'm suspicious of people who tend to try to lead a horse to water rather than making him drink. Put it that way.

I'm suspicious of people who poison peoples wells by mislabeling something as a common scumtell and then characterize people having opinions as "leading a horse to water."

[Thestatusquo]

Kage is clearly town. Shea is town as a result.

Agree with the first part. The second part not so much. As I said - regardless of how Town Kage is I can't see any investigation role giving the result Kage claimed that 100% clears Shea. And I don't relatively new Kage making a mistake and giving someone an incorrect read based on erroneous assumptions.

I agree. I could see him being a rolecop and getting a vanilla result and assuming this means vt, when in fact tsq could just be a vanilla goon(not saying he is but he could be). This is why I asked for a full claim.

Ironically, this IS coaching.

[Thestatusquo]

There's just no way kage is not telling the truth.

Also, I didn't even know that role existed.

[Thestatusquo]

As a note, this following post excludes a couple people for superficial reasons. There are reasons to think some of them could be scum, but the following list is intended for me to sort of focus my thoughts. If you think someone should be in my scope I will certainly listen

I think the scum is concentrated in this group.
1. Creature
3. BlueBloodedToffee
4. SnarkySnowman
8. Kmd4390
12. Lowell
13. Untrod Tripod

[Thestatusquo]

*shrug*

Is lurkig really THAT scummy though? Isn't Snark pretty known for that? I haven't figured out how to read him yet.

Instead of casting vague aspersions on everything anyone else says why don't you actually take a conclusive stand on ANYTHING.

You have taken basically no strong stands this entire game.

[Thestatusquo]

zzzzzzzzz

"this can be figured out from my posts"

you have literally 2 posts that are longer than a sentence. Perhaps some reasoning would be nice.

[Thestatusquo]

MagnaofIllusion

I don't like when someone says I am not doing anything pro-townish. I am doing what I am supposed to do:
1) Hunt scum
2) Hunt town
3) Defend myself
If it's not clear I am doing this, you can take a look at my playstyle.

The problem is I only think you're doing the third thing, and not that much of it besides.

[Thestatusquo]

Katsuki was pretty clearly threatening to fake claim, not softclaiming power role. If you think he was doing the latter you haven't been paying a lot of attention to the game.

[Thestatusquo]

I like that lowell has switched from vaguely attacking me to vaguely buddying me now that I have been confirmed town.

[Thestatusquo]

no hes not?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: creature

[Thestatusquo]

implo wagon is horseshit.

[Thestatusquo]

can we lynch snarky or creature instead?

Please.

Mega please?

[Thestatusquo]

falling behind a little in all of my games right now. My apologies. I'll try to get caught up today.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm still here. Implo lynch is still garbage. Would vote for like almost every person on that wagon before I would vote for implo.

[Thestatusquo]

Who did I Am Innocent replace?

[Thestatusquo]

It's more than a day from now? There is plenty of time to lynch someone else.

[Thestatusquo]

I think the fact that he hasn't been hammered yet is pretty clear indication that all the scum are on that wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Scum would have hammered town and would have hammered scum for the bus.

[Thestatusquo]

Pretty sure the scum are UT, Creature, Snarky, tbh.

With some small chance that MoI or Lowell is scum instead of one of those three.

Pretty happy to vote for either of the top three and maybe could be convinced to vote for the latter 2, but Implo is not scum with the way his wagon grew and the people who are on it

[Thestatusquo]

What? Are you kidding me?

[Thestatusquo]

both of them, likely with you.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: untrodtripod

[Thestatusquo]

How about having your own opinions? Could you try that instead?

[Thestatusquo]

omg shea I love your avatar

It's lecherous simba!

Also, why are you scum in every game we play together?

[Thestatusquo]

Shea's lack of posting this last little bit is indicative of shea working doubles every day this last little bit.

But I don't know why you felt the need to comment on that given that I'm basically confirmed.

[Thestatusquo]

I think town UT would be more concerned with trying to argue that he's not scum with me instead of just pointedly ignoring my vote.

[Thestatusquo]

it's not meta based. it's "my playing with UT tons of times and having a general feel for what our personal rapport is" based.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: unvote

Two people willing to just sheep that casually for "pressure" is just fucking no beuno at all considering how late in the game we are.

What the fuck both of you.

[Thestatusquo]

My reads were good. My ability to make them happen was bad.