Mini 1794: Gunslingers Ahoy! {Game Over}

[ɀefiend]

Gunsling: zefiend[/v]

Thanks buddy.

Duel at high noon: MURDERCAT

[ɀefiend]

Oh snap my bbcode

Oh well.

Vote: MURDERCAT

[ɀefiend]

@TehBrawlGuy

...
I don't agree with the catwagon at all.

I agree with his assessment that voting more in RVS is typically a play done by Scum

who intend to look active and helpful, and voting as such is a great way to break RVS. Hell, you could argue it did. ...

When you and MURDERCAT make claims about RVS theory like this, it all translates to hogwash to me. Unless you or he can provide quantifiable proof of your hypothesis, the reasoning stands very much invalid. Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

You claim that you like the fact that Accountant pushed MURDERCAT to get a wagon going. So why did you detract from the wagon's momentum by placing your vote elsewhere?

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: BlackStar

Mostly gut right now.

I agree that BlackStar pings my gut. But is your vanity wagon really that important? If it is, you should have much more to talk about.

[ɀefiend]

Accountant I'm getting there. I keep getting ninja'd because you guys are posting so much.....

[ɀefiend]

Not really, I addressed your misunderstanding and clairfied my vote. You found my reasoning for voting Dunnstral invalid, that's fine I don't really see how to respond to that. I did find it valid that's why I used it. I'm also not sure how to respond to you disliking my phrasing.

As I pointed out to TBG, your reasoning as it stands is invalid.

So far I've found that most of your posts revolve around defense.

Can you provide a case against Dunnstral commensurate with Accountant's case against you?

[ɀefiend]

@BlackStar

That wasn't really a defense. I just thought it was silly that

we were rushing towards a lynch

. I also think it's scummy that you're trying to force an association between me and him before he even gets lynched

Several of your posts are giving me bad vibes.

When do you think it's appropriate to start trying to lynch someone?

There IS an association between you and MURDERCAT now. The nature of that association remains to be seen. Also, I believe that was the first time you actually called someone's actions as scummy. Yet, you aren't pushing or pursuing discourse with Dunnstral for his actions.

All you've said is that he gives you a bad feeling, and then outta nowhere, your vote on MURDERCAT is now serious.

Your progression in this game is all over the place. Stop "observing" and start scum-hunting, please.

[ɀefiend]

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then

I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious

.

This is blatantly a misrep.

I mean, the guy is literally still here and participating in the discussion.

[ɀefiend]

@Accountant

since you are interested in what people think of BlackStar what do you think of my #151?

@MURDERCAT

your entire play feels like a fabrication, starting all the way back with your initial vote. Your current scumread of Dunn and townread of Blackstar are very shallow.

[ɀefiend]

Holy mother of activity... I think this is the most active start-of-Day I've ever experienced in a game of mafia. I will be dedicating some time tomorrow to catch up since I have some free time this weekend.

But in the mean-time,

@TehBrawlGuy

what do you mean by "time-travel" when catching up?

[ɀefiend]

OK, I'm here and beginning my time-travel catchup. WARNING: I'm starting back at page 7.

[ɀefiend]

I only finished the FIRST page of my catch-up and I already have to address points that are either misrepping me or casting shade on my thought process.

@MURDERCAT

Well I commented on Black star. Generally I think those that have jumped on weakly are more likely to be scum such as zefiend and chumba. TBG's posts I could see coming from scum or town. Same for you, maybe a slight town lean.

I placed the initial vote on you (which was RVS by the way) so the claim that I "jumped on weakly" is flat out false. I held my vote on you while pressuring you because that is how games get started: with a wagon to see how the wagonee handles pressure. At the current moment in this time-travel, you are still handling pressure very poorly. I am not the only one that has pressured you and noticed that you were beginning to flail by dodging questions and using circular logic.

If he was reading closely it should have been clear what I was saying.

Here is the post in question:

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then

I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious

.

It is very clear what you said. Your suspicion is based on an entirely false assertion: that he "left the discussion." That is the definition of misrepresentation.

[ɀefiend]

/time travel pause

Can someone who has been diligently reading the thread tell me if there is an exorbitant amount of misrepresentation and false accusations flying around between pages 8-26 so that I can ignore the most trivial ones and assume that someone logical (such as Accountant or TBG) has dismissed them already?

[ɀefiend]

@BlackStar

@BlackStar

That wasn't really a defense. I just thought it was silly that

we were rushing towards a lynch

. I also think it's scummy that you're trying to force an association between me and him before he even gets lynched

Several of your posts are giving me bad vibes.

When do you think it's appropriate to start trying to lynch someone?

There IS an association between you and MURDERCAT now. The nature of that association remains to be seen. Also, I believe that was the first time you actually called someone's actions as scummy. Yet, you aren't pushing or pursuing discourse with Dunnstral for his actions.

All you've said is that he gives you a bad feeling, and then outta nowhere, your vote on MURDERCAT is now serious.

Your progression in this game is all over the place. Stop "observing" and start scum-hunting, please.

That's not an association. Any normal person would think it's weird that somebody was at L-2 on like the 3rd page. This game is pretty bad so far. You're all death tunneling a player who clearly seems inexperienced and acting like his mistakes can only be seen as the actions of scum.

OK we'll let the town decide what the definition of "association" is, then.

I think Dunnstral is scum, so murdercat is probably town.
You said that I didn't "pursue discourse with Dunnstral". I wasn't even here so of course I didn't. Dunnstral is trying to tie me to murdercat just because I questioned why everyone was ready to lynch him so quickly. That's ridiculously weak and it's even worse that he's trying to do this before we even get a flip. Then he said my individual actions were scummy but doesn't give any examples of things I've said that he thinks are scummy. He's earned my vote

VOTE: dunnstral

Well at least you've provided a reason for your vote. However I probably need to keep reading to see if that reason is substantiated or not.

[ɀefiend]

Chumba and TBG, thanks for the info on what to look out for. /unpause

[ɀefiend]

@BlackStar, page 10

Blackstar, I noticed that despite quoting his initial argument against efiend, you haven't really given your thoughts on him. So thoughts?

Seems like another opportunist looking for validation from the town

You are going to have to bring more to the table than that if you want to cast shade on my play. I'm interested, though, so I can have a reference point.

[ɀefiend]

@TehBrawlGuy, page 11

@TehBrawlGuy

...
I don't agree with the catwagon at all.

I agree with his assessment that voting more in RVS is typically a play done by Scum

who intend to look active and helpful, and voting as such is a great way to break RVS. Hell, you could argue it did. ...

When you and MURDERCAT make claims about RVS theory like this, it all translates to hogwash to me. Unless you or he can provide quantifiable proof of your hypothesis, the reasoning stands very much invalid. Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

You claim that you like the fact that Accountant pushed MURDERCAT to get a wagon going. So why did you detract from the wagon's momentum by placing your vote elsewhere?

This is mafia. Quantifiable proof usually does not exist, and asking for it is fallacious. I qualitatively have noticed the same thing that mcat has, so it makes sense to me, and I don't really agree with him taking heat for it.

Qualitative experiences during RVS being used to argue that a certain alignment does something more than the other alignment during RVS is

literally

confirmation bias. As an aside, there actually

are

some quantifiable statistics about things regarding RVS, such as "are scum more likely to RVS their buddies than someone else?" and "is an RVS flashwagon more likely to be on town than mafia?" If I really wanted to make a point about one of these things during RVS I would go dig up these stats. Seeing as we're long past RVS and this argument we're having is probably not worth it and/or distracting from the game, I will just drop it.

Mcat's vote was not with poor reasoning. It is only marginally better than random voting, true, but on Page 2, it's the best we had. Casting the first serious vote in the game is a ProTown action and I view it favorably.

I still think it was poor reasoning. Shiny junk is still junk. And that action is NAI for me, so we will just have to disagree on that point.

Because I see the wagon as Town v. Town. I like that Accountant made a strong wagon. It generated a lot of content and helped start the day, but even though I like his methods, I disagree with his conclusion that mcat is Scum. Hence, my best play is to generate an opposing wagon on someone who I

do

think is Scum.

This makes logical sense, at least. Thank you for answering.

[ɀefiend]

Qualitative experiences during RVS being used to argue that a certain alignment does something more than the other alignment during RVS is

literally

confirmation bias. As an aside, there actually

are

some quantifiable statistics about things regarding RVS, such as "are scum more likely to RVS their buddies than someone else?" and "is an RVS flashwagon more likely to be on town than mafia?" If I really wanted to make a point about one of these things during RVS I would go dig up these stats. Seeing as we're long past RVS and this argument we're having is probably not worth it and/or distracting from the game, I will just drop it.

I am interested in talking about RVS theory, though. I agree dropping it now is the most sensible thing, but I would like to pick it up in the post-game if you don't mind.

Yeah I feel the same way.

I'm only on pg.13 btw

Will say that I don't like either chilledtea's or Transcend's entrance.

[ɀefiend]

As of Page 15, my thoughts on the whole Chumba vs. TBG:

UNVOTE: I'll decide where I want to put this again tomorrow, meanwhile I believe Murdercat is at L-3

I know there's a lot of people who haven't even gotten to read the thread and we're ~250 posts in

I find your unvote weird given black isn't voting you anymore.

I also don't like how you referenced how close murder is to a lynch

. Just comes of as like you are about to make an opportunistic jump back to murder

This feels nitpicky. Not to mention it's followed by a pretty strong assumption.

The fact you have played on this site since 2011 and said the above really makes me doubt you are town. I can't imagine an experienced Mafia player would ever believe that

This ethos appeal and sweeping generalization of experienced mafia players is bad.

I feel he's been mostly prompted into it as a result of how crazy aggressive Accountant has been and how many other people have been on him. The more aggressive people are being towards you, the more okay responding defensively is. Mcat's defensiveness is proportional to the aggression against him, BlackStar's is not. I also feel that he's had a less defensive tone than BlackStar in general, although that's obviously not as substantial.

Sorry that doesn't work for me. I mean lets ignore you are wrong about defensiveness. If you actually believe what you said you would have explained it better at the time.

Going back now and saying his defensiveness was justified doesnt gel with your belief of defensive behavior.

I also feel like this is nitpicky. Beliefs about defensiveness are not set in stone. They change based on context, which is clearly different between MCAT's defensiveness and BlackStar's.

...Obviously I wasn't and wasting any more time is distracting me from finding his partners.

...

Why would anyone consider the game solved when we don't even have a strong lead on 1 scum yet let alone the entire scum team....

Your cognitive dissonance is showing.

TBG's #370 is a great post. It provides analysis about his scum-read's thought process and actions, and makes logical sense. Also, what he describes about Chumba is true. This

strongly

indicates a townie-like progression to me.

[ɀefiend]

@Someone not Chumba or TBG

, does it get better or worse for Chumba? Because as of rereading up to pg. 15, I am content with voting her.

[ɀefiend]

I think this is one of the places where we fundamentally differ. You view posting questions towards everyone as helpful and I don't value it as much on its own.

And this is where now I'm convinced you have to be scum. Asking questions is the single best way to know what people are thinking. It lets you directly interact with people which helps you know read them better and forces them to provide you a direct response. Scum's goal is to 1. Lie low and 2. Avoid giving concrete responses to things.

If you se people avoiding questions or giving vague responses that's a red flag. A great example would be the questions I asked accountant. I felt his responses were kind of dodgy which is why my read on him changed.

I don't like this post, at all.

How does TBG's view on questioning differing from your view convince you that he's scum?? You don't explain this at all. You just try to justify what TBG called you out on: rapid-fire questioning. Also, scum's goal is to appear town (but I'm sure you'll theory-dismiss me, too). TBG is correct in that asking tons of questions allows scum to appear busy without actually making any advances in solving the game.

[ɀefiend]

Do you still feel that way after reading the points I raised in 667?

[ɀefiend]

Yes actually, my main reasoning being that I'm not seeing scum motive behind chumba's posts, I do however disagree with them and I think TBG is town, but I'm thinking chumba is town too.

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon, not from anyone in particular just in general

Scum motivation is hard to detect during Day 1 (at least for me). I prefer to focus on inconsistencies, unsubstantiated arguments and/or reads, and a genuineness in scumhunting.

Do you see "scum motivation" behind chilledtea's posts?

He barely has any posts at all. His entrance is VERY similar to Transcend's, and Transcend also appears to be entering a few people's scumpiles, so can you further articulate what distinguishes chilledtea to you?

[ɀefiend]

My last post tonight will be a reads list so people can have an idea where I stand.

ConvergentConclusion - literally nothing: getting replaced.

MURDERCAT - IGMEOU: he's dropped loads in activity since getting pressured early on. I want to see some conviction and stances from him.

Chumba - lean scum, lynchpool: I of course am interested in hearing her replies to me, but if it's anything like her replies to TBG, I won't be satisfied. In addition to everything I posted earlier, I want to tack on post 464 as being nitpicky and post 504 as bad pathos appeal.

Accountant - slightly above null (townwise): I see his BlackStar trajectory as logical. The only reason he's not higher is because of his opportunism (which he admits to) in pushing MCAT and BlackStar. However, I agree with him that opportunism is just as likely a town trait when one believes he has caught scum.

chilledtea - null: only 4 posts. He needs to contribute more, for sure, but I'm not following where all this "gut" towards him is coming from.

BlackStar - lean scum, lynchpool: He has displayed scummy traits of exceeding self-consciousness and voting to pander to the current state of the game. His defense is very squirmy. His self-vote is very, very bad for a number of reasons.

NightmareGaunt/RachMarie - literally nothing: I'm glad that RachMarie replaced in to an inactive slot.

I Am Innocent - literally nothing: He needs to catch up.

Dunnstral - lean town: He displays a generally carefree attitude with respect to scumhunting and getting questioned which I suspect would be difficult to fake as scum. I have other reasons for town-reading him but I do not want to discuss them right now.

Derek12 - slightly below null (scumwise): as with MURDERCAT, I want to see Derek take some stances and contribute by actually scumhunting. Asking all the questions in the world doesn't mean anything if you have no follow up.

Transcend - below null (scumwise): Coasting. I don't label him lean scum because I give the benefit of the doubt on Day 1. But just being here and posting reads with no other information or content is coasting.

TehBrawlGuy - strong lean town: His points against Chumba have been on point. He has been poking in the right places this game. He has a healthy trajectory of reads. All signs point to townie.

[ɀefiend]

Sorry to do this but I've just found out I'm going to be wayyyy too busy this summer for mafia.

VOTE: Unvote

Mod please replace me out.