Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[F-oh-ex]

Waking up to 5 pages, typical European scummer stuff.
Aaaaaand they're mostly shitposting, w-w-wow.

Favourite dessert is neapolitan ice cream btw.

VOTE: Stelo Welcome, possible fellow European.

[F-oh-ex]

Also why the vote on stelo?

As far as I see it, we're still in RVS, I voted one of the two people who haven't posted yet.

Yeah Eggman's post was pretty bad but at least he has the excuse of it being 36 posts in

Yes, my post was so garbage because I RLed a lurker in my first post of the game while you were all shitposting for 4 pages. *claps slowly*

[F-oh-ex]

Aaaaaand they're mostly shitposting, w-w-wow.

Not sure how you can say it's mostly shit posting. Lots of game discussion has taken place in the past 2/3 pages.
What's your opinion on these discussions? The serious votes on me, the serious vote on creature, the refusal to give opinions on those 2 things by atm?

Any thoughts at all?

Let me read it 2-3 times and I'll present my opinion. I'd rather not form a serious opinion on spot after one read if I weren't there while the discussion was happening at all. When I am forced to catch up (and I often am due to time zones), I prefer to take a few horus to read everything carefully a few times.

[F-oh-ex]

Jsyk, this

is

my first game outside of Road to Rome. Go ahead, be a condescending prick and call me an idiot.

[F-oh-ex]

As far as I see it, we're still in RVS, I voted one of the two people who haven't posted yet.

game was out of rvs by page 2

I must have missed #32 somehow. This is why I'd rather read the thread 2-3 times before I make any serious opinion.

So apparently I still suck with reading some things, pardon my noobness.

[F-oh-ex]

Look at dwlee he's so town

I'm not scum but I definitely have issues with your play so far so you're definitely on my watch list.

"I'm not scum but...", wut.

So is Akigoku your top scumread

Not seeing how someone who hadn't made a post at that time (and still hasn't) can be the biggest scumread.

lol that's not AI cause that's easily faked. Try again?

Good point. (AI = Alignment Indicative, right?)

Can't determine if this activity is town or not. It's weird to me that anyone can have a page 2 town read though.

In my past games I'd form slight town reads earlier than scumreads, usually, but I guess everyone plays differently. Or I just haven't learnt to scumhunt that well.

First Thoughts: 'Damn 3 pages already this game is hella active'
*reads the game*
3 people engaged in small chat... :\


VOTE: Creature

I didn't think myself that his townreads were seriously stated. So either I'm misinterpreting or you're pulling a strawman. And I don't find early TRs scummy myself.

So Robbnva agrees we are out of rvs yet..

1. Has trashed those with town reads
   
2. Has no scum reads

nice

Nobody really should have either at this point. It's too early to get strong reads

I don't think anyone presented any STRONG reads.

So you dont have any reads on

anyone

?
Not even

a little

Where do you get that idea? Pretty sure I've stated mild suspicion on 2 people already.

can you name these two people? personally, I think its kinda of weird that you will just say "it is too early", i thought yea, maybe its too early but you can't just trash someone's reads and defend yourself. You need valid points on why so and so is not scum or town

Earlier you had said yourself you're not the one to judge early game... contradiction much?

Town points to Robbnva for #80.

Well other than a slight(EMPASIS ON SLIGHT) scum read on Robb, I can't think on who to vote for

I was going to vote for atm based on Page 3 but his recent posts are much better, so this is where I'm at right now.

I fail to see that they did.

[F-oh-ex]

Leaning Town on Robbnva.
Slightly leaning Town on Dwlee99, I get how frustrated Town would be with other people acting dumbly. I'm usually on the other end of frustration in chat mafia.
I don't really like atm's, Smithereens', and MM4's posts.

[F-oh-ex]

By the way, this form is how I've usually done catching up in past games and if I wake up to a jungle of posts, I'll probably continue to do so in this way. If you think it's not clear to read though, feel free to tell me and I'll change it.

[F-oh-ex]

Feels like to me like Derek12 is just repeating what Robbnva says. This, for example.

atm487 and F-oh-ex are looking town for me.

atm487 looks different from his game as scum, here he's actually pushing his reads.

F-oh-ex's posts seemed to have a sort of scum hunting rather than scum trying to make noise.

I don't like these reads at all and I had to question if we were even reading the same game.

I don't see atm "pushing his reads" because he doesn't really have any by his own admmission. He has one very slight read and that's on me but he doesn't explain why and he isn't even confident enough to vote me. Of course i'm biased here but I find it interesting that his only read happens to be on the person who was under the most scrutiny at the time and the fact that he avoided giving reads when people were trying to get them from him doesn't look pro-town at all.

as for f-oh ex, please link these posts you see as scum hunting because post 124 definitely looks like a noise post to me

p.edit - thank you

I really don't like 123 or the whole shitposting deal from F-oh-ex. I don't understand how reading #32 would really change your thoughts on the later posts unless you barely read them.

I was also conflited with post 124, but it sounds like he's developing his scum hunting rather than "I must try to be seem as scum hunting as much as possible"

So at first you townread me for that post and now that 2 players pressured you to explain that, you backpedal.

Smithereen's posts do seem scummy but two posts isn't enough for me to make a decision on.

In your 2 previous posts you agreed with townreads based on a single post... inconsisteny much?

So you think the scumteam in a 13-player game would be three people?

uh yea?

I don't get why Eggman asked about it. 3v10 seems like a reasonable setup. Perhaps Eggman was trying to imply a TMI from Dwlee99? I don't like that question.

Okay then.

I think Mario is acting different from when I played with town!him, do you think he's showing hesitance in his reads?

That's your second read (after atm) where your only base is your previous game with that person. I don't feel like trusting this too much.

Townreads so far:
atm487
crazycrabman
Derek12
Dragon of the West
Dwlee99
F-oh-ex (kinda)
Robbnva

That's a LOT of townreads.

Akigoku is most likely going to be replaced.

Eggman's posts feel like scum questioning, but at least he's trying.

MarioManiac4's reads look pure noise.

Smithereens looks opportunistic, but I am open to believe he might've misrepresented me.

stelo did an RVS vote but hasn't commented in the discussion I had with Robbnva.

The only reads MM4 gave were on atm and Derek. Not much of a noise. In fact, he posted 3 times total.

OK listen, so I have been inactive lately because I have had alot on my mind and some stuff happened, but listen. I know for a fact creature is town, his posts are very revealing and if he's playing scum, he very good, if not, then he is very good at town too, rooting out the obvious people that have been active, for now, I would like to re-review all the posts and wait a little before voting, because many of us have been active and I am having a hard time deciding who to vote for, my apologies

>I know for a fact
Creature's posts are muddy and his reads are all over the place, often with little explanation. Let me ISO him and get back to you.

[F-oh-ex]

UNVOTE: stelo

Not sure about eggman, I'll ISO him and lynch if I find him scummy enough. Atm not liking Creature and derek12. Crab rubs me wrong a little.

[F-oh-ex]

I'd try to scumhunt, but a. I'm not aware of the methods to do so

This is your fourth game on this site, is it not? Basic guides to scumhunting is something you read during your first game, wow.
>I would scumhunt but I don't know how to.
VOTE: Eggman

He's now at L-1.

[F-oh-ex]

Derek

: It felt to me like you were restating Dwlee's opinions and joking around with him. Sorta read like buddying.

Stelo

: IMO, inactivity is a scumtell.

The "read" on Derek is blatant restatement of what I wrote earlier.
stelo AND Akigoku are both inactive to the point where they were prodded. They haven't spoken after the prod either. At this point I wouldn't call it "inactivity" but "not being part of the game and about to be replaced". Also, funny how you mentioned stelo but not Akigoku. Or MM4 who has whooping 3 posts.

Also, you yourself are fourth least active player in this game (counting Akigoku who hasn't made a post and stelo) and you call inactivity is a scumtell. Projection much?
"Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others."

[F-oh-ex]

I've been ISOing everybody and:
- Eggman has crumbed VT, which I find very unlikely he'd do that as scum.
- There are 6 players scum reading him excluding me.

So I am no longer scumreading Eggman.

Could you point where Eggman crumbed VT? I fail to see it, unless you mean "I don't know how to scumhunt" as a means of implying that he's not a power role. Which is terrible-ish.

[F-oh-ex]

Note: Creature was the first one to have voted Eggman, now we switched to MM4. He also confirmed what Eggman said about crumbing immediately.

[F-oh-ex]

^This. He claiemed he actually closed the tab and his post did't send out.

[F-oh-ex]

Also, scum crumbing isn't so uncommon from what I read. After all, scum can just abandon the crumb and not point it out if they change their mind.

[F-oh-ex]

You'll understand if I find that argument unconvincing.

[F-oh-ex]

^This. He claiemed he actually closed the tab and his post did't send out.

No, I claimed I was rereading the game and pointing out things I missed before and closed that tab in the middle of writing it. You're deliberately misinterpreting that post.

don't you just love when you're writing a big post then accidentally delete the tab
i'm rereading the game closely
also i only just understood dwlee's 167. VOTE: smithereens

1. You said you "accidentally delete the tab".
2. I refer that you "closed the tab" and didn't send .
3. You correct me that you "closed the tab" and you accuse me of deliberate misintepretation.

WHAT.

And if you mean that closing the tab referred to now and not to RQS "vanilla" post, then you still claimed that you had crumbed vanilla while you had never done so, as Dwlee99 pointed out.

[F-oh-ex]

@Derek ISO is still happening, I'll post it soon. I particularly don't like his late interactions with Eggman.

[F-oh-ex]

PEDIT: you said the tab I closed was for me, saying my favorite desert was vanilla ice cream for the RQS. I said, the tab I closed was my catching-up post.

Okay so:
1. You claimed that you had said your favourite dessert was vanilla ice cream for the RQS.
2. Dwlee99 pointed out you've never done so.
3. You made a post about accidentally closing your tab mid-writing.
It's only logical I thought it referred to "vanilla" post since that's the one you claimed to have sent but didn't, isn't it?
4. You accuse me of deliberate misintepretation. Mwhah, kay.

Now that you've cleared up it wasn't about "vanilla" post, I'll restate what Dwlee99 said since you never answered this.
Why did you claim to have crumbed VT with "vanilla ice cream" RQS if you have NEVER MADE STATED POST?

[F-oh-ex]

The first post where you posted something related to "vanilla ice cream" was 272, the one where you claimed VT.

[F-oh-ex]

You never even said what your favorite one was, this doesnt make sense lol

That @Eggman

[F-oh-ex]

Derek: After I wrote the post saying I was rereading and I closed the tab where I had written a post on what I had missed before, F-oh-ex said the tab was where I was going to crumb VT. It wasn't, so I accused him of misinterpreting my post.
Speaking of which, my favorite desert is vanilla ice cream.

It seems I did misinterpret it but I explained why it was only logical to think why you meant that "vanilla" post. And let's not forget you clearly said DELIBERATE misinterpretation.

[F-oh-ex]

PEDIT: VT. It's why I did the RQS: "vanilla" ice cream

I was going to, 'till the wagon started and I got to L-1.

So you claimed to have crumbed VT. Now you say you "were going to" crumb it but never got to?

Where what? Where did I explain or where did you say it was deliberate of me? Just so that there are no more "misunderstandings", please be more precise.

[F-oh-ex]

Basically what Robbnva said, Eggman's claim was his post #8 so he had plenty of chances to crumb if that was his intention.

[F-oh-ex]

I've been ISOing everybody and:
- Eggman has crumbed VT, which I find very unlikely he'd do that as scum.
- There are 6 players scum reading him excluding me.

So I am no longer scumreading Eggman.

This is utter scum. No you didn't ISO everyone that's pretty obvious, you're simply trying to make a reason to not scum read Eggman. Furthermore there are 6 players scum reading him means that clearly a lot of townies are scum reading him, why the fuck is that a reason to cancel your scum read??

Answer is it isn't. You don't have any reason to stop scum reading him since we both know your first reason is clearly BS. The second reason however is the one which stinks the most.

Imo Creature is likely scum with Eggman. Let's flip Eggman for a better idea.

Major town points to Smithereens for this post, I agree with pretty much everything stated there.

I'd discount the number of people voting him, but honestly his crumb is pretty much genuine, so he's either VT or was planning to claim that, but I don't expect him to plan his claim tbh. Also, he's actually trying to contribute, which is a towntell for someone that looks pretty much mislynch bait (I've already played with him).

Quite a few people were weirded out that Eggman claimed to have crumbed while no one found any crumbs. He later admitted he was "going to crumb" but didn't manage to (it was called out that it's a blatant lie, too). You, on the other hand, did 'find' his crumb and continue to talk about Eggman as if he DID crumb...

I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

Seeing how daytalk is enabled, that's not improbable.

I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

but you see him doing it as town? when he has never done an RQS ever before

Oooh, I like that post. Creature seems to base himself on meta a lot so catching this inconsistency is very good.

Neil Breen

???

But I feel like we've been too focused on Eggman.

This is like your 4th attempt within 3 pages to shift the topic away from Eggman. (who was at L-2 at the moment)

atm487:

Do you have any scumreads that aren't Eggman currently?

so far, no, i'm still looking at all the posts, but other than Robb(only slight read) i can't think of anyone

Page 17 and you have one read...?
atm seems like a Village Idiot to me. The question is, are we going to policy him if he doesn't start to actually contribute? I don't want him to be the deciding vote in an important situation.

Yeah if your scum read is stronger on somebody else it's bad play to want to lynch the lesser scum read. Ugh now I'm not townreading you anymore.

I find Smithereens' explanation about how Egg and Creature are linked reads to him satisfactory. This scumhunting does feel genuine though, I guess I can agree to disagree with you on Smith for now. I will keep your words in mind though.

I actually think we learn more about eggman from a creature lynch than vice versa. Plus creature actually got caught in at least some dishonest postings.

vote: creature

Keeping an eye on smitherines though.

A proposal I can get behind, seeing how Creature is very scummy for the past few pages.

I think creature is the scum here.
VOTE: creature
it seems like creature is attempting to tie himself to egg.

Ooooh, a good observation. It makes sense, when one looks at what Smith posted (and probably a few people share that mindset): that a scumread on Creature will weaken if Egg flips Town.

Also, I feel Robbnva is either very set in his ways and doesn't like people not agreeing with him, or he is trying to push ways of thinking which points him as town.

I for one find his attitude a town tell, especially since he seems to be geniuinely scumhunting. I don't like how you say "either X or Y", where neither X nor Y brings much to the table.

I am thinking the whole scum team is in {Akigoku, crazycrabman, MarioManiac4, Robbnva, Smithereens, stelo}

So in no possible world you see eggman being scum, someone you were pushing against a few days ago.

Well, he did retract his scumread on eggman earlier. This post caused quite a discussion so I don't see how you'd miss it...

It might be that crab is pulling a strawman on a player who's acquired a lot of scumreads. Crab smells fishy to me but Creature isn't in a bad enough position for his scumpartner to desperaty join his wagon. And bussing day 1 seems to cripple Mafia so much that it's just unwise. Given that, I find it unlikely that Creature and crab are partners together and my read on Creature is much stronger (it also might give us info about Eggman).

My attitude has changed with these last few pages:
town {Smithereens}
townlean {Atm, Derek}
null {Dwlee, DotW, F-oh-ex}
scumlean {Eggman, Creature, Robnva, Mario*, Stelo*}
scum {}

*Due to inactivity

Dwlee's presence here is one of the strongest. How is he a NULL?

[F-oh-ex]

The reads go as following:
Strong townreads - Robbnva, Smithereens
Townreads - Dwlee (I want to be careful here, however, because he seems to be a very good player and I wouldn't like to underestimate his manipulation abilities as Mafia), Dragon, atm (possible subject to policy earlier)
Null reads - MM4, stelo, Akigoku (aka lurk squad), Derek12 (just noticed I don't really have a read on him. Will ISO)
Scumreads [in that order] - Creature, Eggman, crazycrab (mutually exclusive to be scum with Creature)

UNVOTE: Eggman
VOTE: Creature

[F-oh-ex]

Err, "possible subject to policy earlier", I meant

later

. I forgot how to English there.

[F-oh-ex]

Derek's ISO seems to contain a lot of genuine scumhunting. I particularly like #249 and #419. He's a townread to me.
How do I make neat links like Derek did in 249...

[F-oh-ex]

Oh, by the way, my exams are over so I won't disappear for 2 days like I recently did from now on.

[F-oh-ex]

@F-oh-ex
I have Dwlee as null as I could see him flipping either way. I use the null spot as a spot for people who I see going in different directions depending on how the game plays out.

Could you ISO Dwlee and get back to me with an elaboration on your read?

[F-oh-ex]

I don't like how Creature made a post directly after the post where he was asked a question and completely ignored it.

[F-oh-ex]

@F-oh-ex
I have Dwlee as null as I could see him flipping either way. I use the null spot as a spot for people who I see going in different directions depending on how the game plays out.

Could you ISO Dwlee and get back to me with an elaboration on your read?

Yeah, so reading through his posts it seems to me that he is genuinely scum hunting. But like you said before, he could be manipulating us. Currently, not judging anything but his ISO, I would have him somewhere between townlean and town. But I am hesitant to give him that townlean because say Creature flips town and eggman flips town, then out of the options available, i would have him as one of the main people I am watching out for and have him in scumlean. I think the problem we are having is that while many people read just off people's ISO, I believe that we should consider all the possibilities before we make a decision. I don't know if this is a good strategy because I have only tested it on one game, but it is what seems most fair to me.

Well, of course that the reads change if a situation requires them to. And between townlean and town, huh? That's a major shift from null.
And notice that while I made a note about being afraid of Dwlee being a brilliant scum, that doesn't mean I don't townread him. Anyone could "go either way" so that's not a good reason for nullreading imo.

[F-oh-ex]

Ah, waking up to a jungle of new pages. #JustEuropeanThings
We got a replacement for a lurker, great. Let me wrap my head around what happened and I'll give my opinion on the new developments.

[F-oh-ex]

A person who acts scummy as shit and does a complete 180 and somehow magically sees a breadcrumb THAT NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED

Yeah, because town should always let their townreads get lynched.

How does "protecting a townread" explain a blatant lie?

Catching up, making a long post, the usual.

[F-oh-ex]

Creature is still scum as hell, and he keeps swamping in more lies. Eggman hasn't done anything that would change my opinion about him, neither did crab. Still in favour of lynching Creature, especially since he's tied to both Egg and Crab in my eyes.

Petroleum's a meh replacement so far, his catchup was awfully selective and didn't mention a lot of people. Not a scumread yet but he doesn't contribute a lot. Infinity, on the other hand, is hyperactive and seems erratic and chaotic. I suppose it might be in some part due to the fact he's a replacement since from personal experience I could never get my feet into game when replacing.

[F-oh-ex]

Robb is my strongest Townread atm and I do get your frustration because how can ignoring something so obvious not be frustrating but some people might not, I guess. Not sure if that's the best way to convince others.

[F-oh-ex]

Eh, isn't one of the points of private chat by Neighbours being able to get a good read on your Neighbour?

[F-oh-ex]

1.)

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

3.)

Dragon of the West, I am having serious issues of your treatment of Eggman's vanilla townie "crumb."

While Eggman was at L-1 you basically tried to push through the lynch

by attacking his "crumb" for multiple posts, including:

This is where he accused me of trying to push through the lynch. Soo...you were saying?

Anyone in their sane mind would "attack the crumb" because THERE. WAS. NO. CRUMB. Even Eggman admitted a few pages later that he didn't crumb, merely that he set up the RQS with a crumb in mind but didn't follow through with it.

Creature though immediately "saw" the crumb, even after Dwlee99 made a post along the lines of "lol wut where is the crumb". And Creature continues to speak about Eggman having crumbed it. Robb has pointed it out a few times and so have I - why is Creature magically seeing Eggman's crumb, if even Eggman admitted that crumb didn't happen? Why is everyone ignoring it?

[F-oh-ex]

So you believe Eggman is Town based not even on the fact that he crumbed something, but on the fact that he posed a RQS?

[F-oh-ex]

Asking a random question is in intself a good crumb, even if it contains no actual crumbing?
...
Creature, can you please repeat what you just wrote in a form which would be better for quoting? That deserves to find its way to "top 10 hilarious quotes of mafiascum in July" or sth.

[F-oh-ex]

Okay, if my sense of humour dropped THIS low, it's a clear sign for me I should hit the hay.

[F-oh-ex]

Say what you'd like, but you're imagining that. You said you thought something I said in that post set off your scumdar and the only thing I can see setting that off is if you thought I lied about not trying to push a hammer through. If that's not the case, please clarify what made that retort to petroleum scummy, because it's not clear. And that's not "overdefensive", that's explaining myself after an accusation

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

You said you weren't pushing for a quickhammer on eggman, but petroleum wasn't accusing you of that, "pushing for a lynch" does not mean "pushing for a lynch immediately", and that particular wording is not important anyway. The important part that petroleum was pointing out was that you called eggman scum for crumbing uselessly, while you crumbed neighbor, and you already had answered that part. Overdefensive.

You also talk about why you didn't like the eggman crumb in a way that "I realize now that it may have just been something Eggman may do" is not a reason for town to drop a scumread. Meanwhile you never even gave another reason to stop pushing eggman in the first place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dragon

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Petroleum, just curious, did you not notice inno inspect on DotW or you want to pressure him regardless of it?

[F-oh-ex]

Arghh, I sent the "quotes" post instead of a "quotes and replies post". Feel free to delete the previous one, @Mod.

Petroleum said you were hypocritical for calling eggman's VT crumb scum when you crumbed neighbor, you explained that crumbing neighbor wasn't really the purpose of the post in question. Ok, that was enough of a defense.

F-oh-ex is still probably town, he's just stupidly stuck on the creature/egg BS. Egg was town because saying that he crumbed there made no sense as scum, and there was no other real reason to ask the dessert question. Creature realizing that does not make him scum lol

Ad. 1. The difference is Eggman didn't actually crumb VT while Dragon did sift Neighbour quite strongly.

Ad. 2. As scum he could do it to a) desperately defend his partner and b) try to tie himself closely to Eggman if Egg is Town and then say "see, i told you smh". Are you saying that if someone acts insanely stupidly/unreasonably, they're immediately not scum? Personally, I'm more of a "Lynch all Liars" kind of a player - except when it comes to gambits, of course. And Creature is either lying or hallucinating.

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Town!Egg is more likely than Town!Creature to be honest. As someone pointed out (Dwlee99, was it?), Creature could be very likely trying to tie himself to Town Egg.

Petroleum, just curious, did you not notice inno inspect on DotW or you want to pressure him regardless of it?

[F-oh-ex]

Also, to "Fox being stupidly stuck on Creature/Egg BS". I believe Creature/Egg is still the way to go, hence me staying on Creature wagon. I kinda missed the exact point when this topic got dropped, need to reread to localise it and determine who exactly is responsible for it.

[F-oh-ex]

Your hyperactivity just after subbing in could serve to overshadow everything that has happened so far, just saying. But that's just a pre-ISO hypothesis.

[F-oh-ex]

I have a day cop inno on dragon, can you stop now, infinity?

Okay, it might be my newbieness because I actually considered that post seriously and not as a "He's town, now F off" kind of post...

[F-oh-ex]

Can you not initiate another futile 1v1 shitposting that serves nothing other than to obscure the game?

[F-oh-ex]

Well I'm still on Creature so not sure what more you expect from me in the matter of lynching scum.

[F-oh-ex]

I would still rather lynch Creature today.

[F-oh-ex]

The biggest wagons are on Creature and MM4. How is Creature "off the table"?

@Dragon As I said before, I'll need to ISO Infinity before giving my opinion on him.

@Creature Funny how you bring up that I mention sth too often since you brought Eggman crumbing like 100 times yourself. A crumb which never happened and yet you still magically saw it.

[F-oh-ex]

MM4 is somewhat of a townlean to me but that might stem from the fact I strongly scumread Creature and I don't see them as a duo. Compare and contrats with my scumread of crab who is mutually exclusive to be scum with Creature.


As per myself, I won't try to be the judge of my own case, but I find it pretty ridiculous that the most discussed post is my emotional reaction which wouldn't differ much between town!me and scum!me, judging by my experience in chat mafia.


petroleum's posts amount to catchup and then ridiculous tunnelling on Robbnva. To what end, to shift the topic or to undermine Robb's credibility? I fail to see how anyone would read Robb as scum. Post 1000 is pure tunnelling and nonsense. His "arguments" against Dragon are equally bad and I like the Dragon response under what little pressure petroleum by himself applied. Petroleum's a scumlean so far, however I want to be careful with that - when I would sub in, I'd always have trouble with getting my feet in the game and make terrible reads at first and get hung up on something that seemed valuable to me.
Not that this excuses terrible tunnelling and failed meta context.

Inifinity's first post, which is a list of reads, is not really AI. I don't like the reads there at all but I guess it's worth something that he listed there, we can compare that with what he writes later. Unlike petroleum, Inifinity is hyperactive, not sure what to make of that... this is probably NAI too since it could mean either way.

Post 696 sheeps Creature's metaread on atm. The general consensus was that this meta was trash IIRC.

Post 697 is a garbage nitpicking and trying to find scummy things where there are none.

Post 721 is gibberish. Weird logic you don't agree with to form conclusions that make sense? Just from that sounds like a sound logic which you have problem understanding for some reason.

Do you think scum bus their buddy and then back off when they get ~4 votes?

What you're saying kinda makes sense, but not if creature is scum. I don't even think robb is giving himself an out to not vote creature closer to deadline.

IIRC Creature was the first person to vote for Eggman. You say that scum wouldn't bus like that and back off. Putting one vote on your partner is not bussing. And yes, scum would probably back off when the unexpected wagon forms. While I'm not sold on the fact that this is what happened, what you wrote to justify townread on Creature makes little to no sense.

@Robb don't you think it would be helpful to pressure creature more to try and make him crack?

Wait, what? Make him crack? Wasn't he your strongest townread?

It's either town or scum that is quite good at faking emotion

Emotions are pretty NAI in forum mafia, at least to me. They're harder to fake in chat when you have ~5-10 seconds to respond but here? Given that most of the emotion spectrum aren't AI, it's very easy to fake it just enough to get there.

I know contractions are more likely to come from town (yes that is true in general DotW), I just don't like your response to it

I'm townreading you anyway so ehh

Contradictions are not the same as evolution of reads/opinions...

Inifinity's read on Dragon shifts like a sinus function.

Post 918 is horrible. He suddenly pops in with Derek. He townread crab quite evidently and now wants to lynch him because he's a "weaker town read"? Lynching a weaker town read sounds like something you'd do by process of elimination if you townread literally everyone... what.

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

About the Creature "lie" - even if creature was somehow confirmed scum it still probably wasn't a lie. There is no scum motivation in lying about something where you can so easily be caught.

So you're saying that because Creature blatantly lied, it's a towntell? That's a shitty WIFOM at best and a pathetic buddying at worst.

And why the shift on Robb, trying to butter up to him?

[F-oh-ex]

Do you think scum bus their buddy and then back off when they get ~4 votes?

What you're saying kinda makes sense, but not if creature is scum. I don't even think robb is giving himself an out to not vote creature closer to deadline.

@Robb don't you think it would be helpful to pressure creature more to try and make him crack?

It's either town or scum that is quite good at faking emotion

I know contractions are more likely to come from town (yes that is true in general DotW), I just don't like your response to it

I'm townreading you anyway so ehh

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

About the Creature "lie" - even if creature was somehow confirmed scum it still probably wasn't a lie. There is no scum motivation in lying about something where you can so easily be caught.

I'll ISO Crab and Smith and post my revised reads list.

[F-oh-ex]

Bah, I accidentally quoted the bunch of posts again, these quotes shouldn't be there. I still suck with forum management.

[F-oh-ex]

MM4 is somewhat of a townlean to me but that might stem from the fact I strongly scumread Creature and I don't see them as a duo

why not?

MM4 is in the serious lynchpool and I don't see Creature bussing like that at this point when it's not necessary.

So, based on what I've seen of other people's opinions, it seems that you consider Creature to mutually be scum with either Crabman or me.
VOTE: Crabman,

FoS: Smithereens (un-FoS Crabman)

I propose lynching Crabman today, seeing how he flips, and if he's town lynch me or Creature tomorrow.
Because I don't get the cases on Infinity and Dragon, which also (to me) seem a little OMGUS-y (didn't Infinity call out DotW in the first place?)

Just to be clear, because I think you referred to me among others, by saying "Creature and Crab are mutually exclusive scumreads" I mean that I have a scumread on both of them but I do NOT see them as partners so one of them flipping scum would be a towntell for the other one in my eyes.

[F-oh-ex]

No, what I said doesn't amount to "every towntell is WIFOM". You're trying to pull a reductio ad absurdum on me. The "he outright lied and scum has no reason to do that so he's town" is a WIFOM at best because it's a particular example of a "that play was so shitty that it must be coming from town, scum would be careful enough not to do it" set.

[F-oh-ex]

I have listed quite a few things I regarded as towntells while reading people. And every action in Mafia can be reduced to some extend of WIFOM if it's not hard to fake, that's exactly what "not hard to fake for the other side" implies. And whether or not something is a towntell largely depends on the context of situation and of the person considered.

[F-oh-ex]

Hasn't it occured to you that it might have been just a big blunder?

[F-oh-ex]

You imply that scum!Creature wouldn't be ballsy enough to blatantly lie about it but it might have been just a slip up, e.g. Creaure might not have even checked Egg's post and instead immediately affirmed the crumb.

[F-oh-ex]

Do RQSes always make sense? They didn't in my Newbie games.

There's a difference between Creature's belief and yours. You believe it after Egg acknowledged he meant to crumb it, Creature immediately affirmed that the crumb WAS there.

[F-oh-ex]

V

o

t

e

c

o

u

n

t

Day 1 #14

Smithereens [

1

]:

Eggman

Creature [

2

]:

F-oh-ex

/

crazycrabman

MarioManiac4 [

3

]:

Dragon of the West

/

Creature

/

Robbnva

Robbnva [

1

]:

petroleumjelly

Dragon of the West [

1

]:

Infinity 324

Derek12 [

1

]:

MarioManiac4

Infinity 324 [

1

]:

Dwlee99

Eggman [

1

]:

atm487

crazycrabman [

1

]:

Derek12

Abstaining [1]:

Smithereens

There are 13 active players.
Absolute majority is

7

.
Majority has

not

been reached.

Previous vote count
Placeholder

Spoiler: Current player list

[01]

Smithereens

[02]

Creature

[03]

MarioManiac4

[04]

Robbnva

[05]

Dwlee99

[06]

petroleumjelly

[07]

Dragon of the West

[08]

Derek12

[09]

Infinity 324

[10]

F-oh-ex

[11]

Eggman

[12]

atm487

[13]

crazycrabman

Spoiler: Days & nights

Day 1

Deadline is

07-07-2016 00:00:00 CEST

((expired on 2016-07-07 00:00:00)).

Quoting the last votecount so that we know where we stand. I'll ISO Crab and Smith now as promised, since I was unable to do it earlier due to server crash.

[F-oh-ex]

My townread on Smith stands strengthened, his 1v1 banter with Robb seems to me like Town vs Town.

[F-oh-ex]

...seriously?
This is not the crumb. I have stated this numerous times by now and you still can't comprehend that. Crumb would be if he actually answered his question with "vanilla" response. That would be crumbing VT. Anyone who believes the crumb referred to the fact that he posed the RQS so it makes sense he was going to answer it the way he claimed he would. You, however, claimed he HAD CRUMBED. No, he had not. Eggman himself said HE WAS GOING TO BUT DIDN'T.

Also, Dwlee99 was the first one to respond along the lines of "lol wut there was no crumb at all lol", and not the only one, I wasn't even the person who pointed it out and not the blind man you're looking for.

[F-oh-ex]

Lol how did i go from null to scumlean?

You said yourself that you had enough posts that you shouldn't be in null. After reviewing your many posts, I believe you fit in the scumlean category.

That doesn't count as reasoning.

All I've done this last few pages is criticize you and Robbnva, why would that change your mind and make you vote for me? Are you uncomfortable with criticism?

You lampshaded yourself that you haven't really done anything constructive.

okay actually the push on creature for putting someone who hasn't posted in his possible scum team is total bull crap.
I've done things like that before, where I say the scum team is in:
blahblahblah
not necessarily because everyone in that list I am scum reading super hard, but rather because I am using process of elimination and removing everyone I am town reading.
VOTE: crazy

I agree, he push on creature for that was stupid, which is why i wasn't a part of it.

Unrelated question: Why the vote on me?

I feel there is enough evidence to VOTE: Creature

I smell inconsistency.

I think I already discussed once that his "reads" on Dwlee99 are bad and why they are.

You see? Nothing I can do. I guess i'll ride this one out...

Idk why you even have a strategy.

Ugh now I'm really starting to think Derek has a point about crab

I'm going to assume you mean first-time scum and not crabs are the worst seafood

Funny thing is is that I haven't experienced either eating crabs or being scum...

Gah, filler.

I believe that Creature and some lurker is scum. I believe creature is scum because his attitude fits that of scum and his posting style. This is a result of a flawed strategy so take it with a grain of salt. I know you are going to say t re-read the game with a different mindset but anything different besides the one I have used and am using right now would be lying to myself.

"some lurker is scum" *slowly claps*

Then about 2-3 posts of crab saying he was busy and he'll catch up.

My scumread on crab stands.

[F-oh-ex]

It's a hint anyway and I have my reasons to think it's a crumb.

"I have my reasons". Oh, do share them!

And I don't think you magically saw it. I think you either lied or blundered stupidly without doublechecking Egg's posts.

[F-oh-ex]

The updated reads go as following:
Strong townreads - Robbnva, Smithereens
Townreads - Dwlee99, Dragon, Derek12 [The D-team?], atm (possible subject to policy later)
Townleans - MarioManiac4
Scumleans - petroleumjelly, Inifinity 324 [aka sub-in squad]
Scumreads [in that order] - Creature, Eggman, crazycrab (mutually exclusive to be scum with Creature)

[F-oh-ex]

Tell me what was the intention of the RQS and why he decided to point it while claiming then.

1. I already pointed out some RQS about pointless.
2. Do you know what "retcon" is?
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. Courtesy of Wikipedia.

And he didn't crumb in the end, he said he was "going to". Well, I can think of 3 roles off the top of my head that can be crumbed using "favourite desser" question. And I could probably find more if I checked the role compendium. When you set up a question but don't actually follow through with it, you can retcon it into "I was going to crumb something!" in quite a few different ways.

[F-oh-ex]

wtf

If you're townreading atm487, why you want to policy lynch him later?

You realise that policy is by definition done on people who are NOT a strong scumread, right?

And I already explained it - he doesn't pay attention, doesn't contribute, fillers, his reads are non-existant and voting patterns chaotic. Why would anyone want a player like him to be the deciding vote in a MyLo/LyLo situation?

[F-oh-ex]

Once again, but he didn't. And since he didn't, he could have just as easily said "I was going to answer in a different way which would crumb the power role I claim". The value of such a "crumb" is nigh-null.

[F-oh-ex]

Why would anyone want a player like him to be the deciding vote in a MyLo/LyLo situation?

tbh I also don't want to be with you in a MyLo/LyLo, specially if you're town-aligned.

Hehehe, okay, trying to counter a reasonable respence with a poor trash talk.

[F-oh-ex]

It's well past midnight here so I'll probably go to sleep soon. There is a chance I'll pull an off-nighter because of IRL reasons so I might pop in every once in a while. I hope we get activity from more people soon, given the short deadline.

[F-oh-ex]

Well if it's towntell to you, I guess I (and a few other players) simply disagree with you (and a few other players).

[F-oh-ex]

I feel like we're circling back to the "Is Egg a mislynch bait?" conversation. And while he's a fine (although not an optimal) lynch imo, I don't think he's in a lynchpool, given the current lynchcount, reads, and deadline.

[F-oh-ex]

I'll be so mad if some people don't realise the server is back online...

[F-oh-ex]

Staying with my vote for now since I believe it to be the optimal lynch but of course I will shift it to another of my scumreads (that will probably mean crazy) if Creature lynch is not happening.

[F-oh-ex]

@Inifnity I believe that discussion is over already. And I disagree, there were some fruits concerning Egg's crumb.

[F-oh-ex]

Also, I didn't realize we were so close to deadline -_-

22 hours, 54 minutes).

@Dwlee99 How is your ISO of Infinity going?

[F-oh-ex]

Im going to iso map infinity.

[F-oh-ex]

atm is currently voting Eggman.

[F-oh-ex]

Smith's Post 815 puts him in "Anti-Egg" camp if that's what you want to call it.

[F-oh-ex]

Although, I must say, that's a bit weird way of dividing the playerlist day 1. Whatever yields good fruit though.

[F-oh-ex]

Y'know, you could just ISO people you listed as "Rest".

[F-oh-ex]

To what do you refer to as "opportunity"? Egg isn't going to get lynched. And that's generally a null information pre-flip anyway.

[F-oh-ex]

Staying with my vote for now since I believe it to be the optimal lynch but of course I will shift it to another of my scumreads (that will probably mean crazy) if Creature lynch is not happening.

Delivering as promised.
UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: crazycrabman

[F-oh-ex]

Unofficial Vote Count #2

crazycrabman - 5 - Derek12, Eggman, Dwlee99, Smithereens, F-oh-ex
MarioManiac4 - 5 - Dragon of the West, Creature, Robbnva, Infinity 324, petroleumjelly
Creature - 1 - crazycrabman
Derek12 - 1 - MarioManiac4
Eggman - 1 - atm487

[F-oh-ex]

I think it's safe to assume that crazy and MM4 will crosslynch, unless they don't post at atll together. That would make the deciding vote... atm, who's on a leave of absence.

[F-oh-ex]

That means someone will have to switch wagons for the lynch to happen.

[F-oh-ex]

Deadline is in 11 hours, 15 minutes at the time of writing this post, jsyk.

[F-oh-ex]

About that...

I wasn't going to extend the deadline for replacements, but I will for the site being down. 1 day extension. Vote count tomorrow, I'm off to bed.
Deadline is

08-07-2016 00:00:00 CEST

((expired on 2016-07-08 00:00:00)).

[F-oh-ex]

Yes, I already said that the only ones not voting are MM4 and crazy, who have no reason not to crosslynch, and atm, who's on a leave of absence, so someone will have to shift.

[F-oh-ex]

About 2-3 people declared that intent already so we should have no problem actually getting a lynch. Dragon, switch to crazy pls imo.

[F-oh-ex]

That's awfully arrrogant of yourself to call it gamesolving rof But don't let anything stop you from forming analyses.

[F-oh-ex]

7 and a half hours. Still preferring crazy.

QFT

[F-oh-ex]

I'm all for crab lynch between the two but since the mod is willing to grant an extension, I'd like to see him claim first.

[F-oh-ex]

And say something in his defence, if he has anything.

[F-oh-ex]

@MM4 "Even if crab flips town". Well, even if he flips scum, that doesn't instantly clear you. Although I'm probably not the one you should ask because you're a weak townread to me.
"town slot alive that cannot contribute" What do you mean you cannot contribute? You can scumhunt even if a lot of players scumread you and you end up getting lynched.

My vote stays on crazy, waiting for hammer.

[F-oh-ex]

Well, even if he flips scum, that doesn't instantly clear you.

I don't think both wagons are on scum. If MM4 and crazy were scum together, it'd narrow the last scum suspect to atm487 who has been doing nothing now.

So what you're saying is: If MM4 and crazy are scum together, atm is the last scum. How do you figure that?

[F-oh-ex]

FYI, Robb's vote was hammer.

[F-oh-ex]

It's not that MM4 and Crab didn't push for counterwagons, it's that they didn't do ANYTHING.

[F-oh-ex]

It's not that MM4 and Crab didn't push for counterwagons, it's that they didn't do ANYTHING.

If it's that, then the last scum must be either set in bussing or did the same thing they did the entire D1.

Yes, that is a good point. That could point to a lurker or a replacement. However, it could also mean that the last scum was very unconvincing with redirecting the lynch.

Also, this conversation is pretty pointless without even one flip.

[F-oh-ex]

That flood gave me cancer. Also, SK is virtually confirmed because why would a Vig shoot either Dwlee or Robbvna? That "if" looks like trying to force a "townslip".
Also, you point out Derek is Town to you then you say "nvm Derek is Town". Consistency?

VOTE: Creature A shame his wagon died yesterday.

[F-oh-ex]

>didn't even read
It is flood when you make a 10 one-liner posts when you could just make 1-2 medium-length posts.
>literally on MyLo
No, we're not. Also, what do we propose we do, NO FUCKING LYNCH?

[F-oh-ex]

Okay, I can't be bothered with this right now, I have some real shitstorm going on IRL and I thought I could occupy my mind with Mafia but this is just more triggering and in 5 posts or fewer I'll just be yelling at everyone. So I won't post for a few hours.

[F-oh-ex]

Creature is just a scum who thinks if he acts obnoxious enough, it'll be a towntell.

[F-oh-ex]

Actually, forget my town read on F-oh-ex, he seems to be following an agenda now.

Since when did you townread me LMAO

Also, I've been scumreading you for a good 10 IRL days now. I dropped it to get majority lynch. Now that I go back to lynching you, you're saying I "follow an agenda"?

[F-oh-ex]

petroleumjelly

I don't disconsider possibilities, now that I've likely got the town and scum team correctly, I wouldn't be surprised to see two town deaths.

Serial Killer wouldn't want to end up in 3v3v1. SK should be aiming for scum.

[F-oh-ex]

On one hand SK will probably try to target Mafia. On the other one, eliminating him would get us rid of one NK.

[F-oh-ex]

Look who's been paying attention...
Derek, are your ISOs coming along?

[F-oh-ex]

ISOing is nigh-worthless if you didn't catch up and don't know the context of situation in which the said posts were made.

[F-oh-ex]

Look who's been paying attention...
Derek, are your ISOs coming along?

I'm null on DoTW now. I'm having a really hard time getting a good read on him currently. I kinda feel like he's going to flip opposite to infinity.

Eggman is town. Didn't really like his early posts, but they feel better for me recently. I don't really agree with some of it, but they seem genuine.

I got too lazy to ISO you and mostly just skimmed it. I'm townreading your posts today though, especially 1347. I'm wondering if you still think MM4/Creature aren't a duo, and if so why?

I'll need to make a couple of ISOs to reevaluate my reads. The game is moving at a slow pace so it's a good time to do it. My reasoning for Creature/MM4 was that Creature pushed on MM4 when it was a serious lynchpool already. Also, MM4's behaviour at the end of the day was a huge towntell for me.

[F-oh-ex]

Notice how the game has slowed down a lot? It's because Robb and Dwlee, drivers of the game, were killed. I think their leading might be the main reason for their demise.

[F-oh-ex]

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487

How come no one is voting him?

Probably because he's on V/LA.

I don't like how Creature mentions he'd lynch atm only after someone else expressed that thought.

[F-oh-ex]

Why did you unlynch then if your intent stays, especially since you said "nothing makes you hesitate"?

[F-oh-ex]

And I'd rather wait for replacements before lynching, especially in atm's case since he did... nothing. I don't think he knew how to play.

[F-oh-ex]

How can getting replaced be a tell? What?

[F-oh-ex]

I need to re-read last pages more carefully, I let go a bit.

[F-oh-ex]

DGB looks pretty different from when I saw her catching up.

I am getting a gut feeling DotW is town and I am thinking you're sounding different compared to Mini 1796.

MFW Creatures tries to metaread after over 9001 failed metareads.

[F-oh-ex]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

Can you explain why you think Mario being replaced is a towntell? regardless of how good the reasoning is

Because there is Daytalk in this game. If MarioManiac4 was simply lurking in-game while posting more frequently in a scum QT, I think the Mod would be less willing to replace him. Not great reasoning, and not reasoning I would hang my hat on if pushed.

Mod said in first post that replacement happens if a player requests a replacement or gets prodded 3 times. Prods happen if a player doesn't talk in game and I don't think QTs matter. You're grasping straws which is scummy.

[F-oh-ex]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

Can you explain why you think Mario being replaced is a towntell? regardless of how good the reasoning is

Because there is Daytalk in this game. If MarioManiac4 was simply lurking in-game while posting more frequently in a scum QT, I think the Mod would be less willing to replace him. Not great reasoning, and not reasoning I would hang my hat on if pushed.

Mod said in first post that replacement happens if a player requests a replacement or gets prodded 3 times. Prods happen if a player doesn't talk in game and I don't think QTs matter. You're grasping straws which is scummy.

"Grasping at straws" for what? My

slight

Townread on MarioManiac4?

Additionally, MarioManiac4 has only been prodded twice over the course of the game (not three times), and there is no indication he requested replacement (unlike Smithereens, who the Mod explicitly told us requested replacement). By the rules of the game, it does not appear that MarioManiac4 should be replaced yet.

You still throw in something that undermines him. The fact that you claim townreading him is even more suspicious in conjuncture with it.
Wouldn't THIS time be the third prof for MM4=sub?

[F-oh-ex]

F-oh-ex, do you have a scumread on petroleum?

In my most recent read list I put him as scumlean. I'll ISO him and get back to you with it. I will have ISOed a few people by Sunday.

[F-oh-ex]

He's getting replaced.

[F-oh-ex]

FoS: F-oh-ex

1.)

You still throw in something that undermines him. The fact that you claim townreading him is even more suspicious in conjuncture with it.
Wouldn't THIS time be the third prof for MM4=sub?

I'm not following the logic as to why this is "suspicious."

And no -- the prods that I recently requested on atm487, Eggman, and MarioManiac4 involved the second prod on MarioManiac4, not the third. You could have easily looked this up yourself.

2.)

Since we're on the topic of MarioManiac4, how about you explain your end of Day One vote?

As the deadline neared and directly before I left for V/LA, I broke the 4-vote tie between crazycrabman and MarioManiac4 by voting for MarioManiac4. You then hopped online and voted for crazycrabman. This brought the game to a 5-5 tie. You then looked into the situation and concluded that if a lynch is going to happen, somebody was going to have to compromise and switch their vote:

I think it's safe to assume that crazy and MM4 will crosslynch, unless they don't post at atll together. That would make the deciding vote... atm, who's on a leave of absence.

That means someone will have to switch wagons for the lynch to happen.

You

had the power right there to put MarioManiac4 at six votes, but you did not. As far as I can tell, you never even offered to.

Why?

Ad. 1. My mistake if this was a second prod. I still think that "host meta" is garbage, it's ridiculous that you find getting replaced alignment indicative.

FoS on DGB for wanting to lynch "a slot" before replacement happens. WTF?

Ad. 2. If you had read my previous posts, you would know that I scumread crazy quite strongly while MM4 was a townlean to me. You think I need to "explain" why I voted my scumread over my townlean? And yes, I never offered to switch, quite a few people were sitting on the fence and offered to switch while my mind was made up.

Also read my Post 1189
I voted Creature at the time, who was my strongest scumread, and clearly stated that if majority doesn't gather on that wagon, I'll go for crazy. Vote count was 4-2 for MM4-crazy at the time.

[F-oh-ex]

FoS: F-oh-ex

1.)

You still throw in something that undermines him. The fact that you claim townreading him is even more suspicious in conjuncture with it.
Wouldn't THIS time be the third prof for MM4=sub?

I'm not following the logic as to why this is "suspicious."

This might be tunnelling from me. I try to self-analyse my games for finding flaws and I seem to be prone to getting into 1v1 banters and tunnelling when I dislike the person's response. I try to wait a bit with responding so that I don't do this kind of thing but apparently I still do these newbie mistakes. The suspicious part was a big stretch from my part.

[F-oh-ex]

I'm not sure who the third mafioso could be, but I'm pretty sure on {DGB, NJAC}.

A question to the more experienced players from a newb: I know the consensus day 1 was that there are 3 Mafia but since it's apparently a multiball or SK exists, can we be still sure of this? I don't think it's a scumslip per se but this post rubs me wrong.

I'm leaning town on Dragon but I'd want to see more from him. He promised an ISO of Eggman. I want him to deliver.

Leaning scum on Mario Maniac. He has setup spec but not much useful. That combined with NJAC's opening is a little :/

Agree that MM4 was useless-ish but for me his slot is a townread. As requested, I'll direct you to what I think you should read and it's Post 1282

[F-oh-ex]

Seeing how Titus doesn't care about reading the game, Town!Titus would probably not know about Daytalk.

3 am, I'll read last pages and make a post around noon, it'd be trash if I did it rn.

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I'm not moving my vote because I scumread Creature for a long time. I moved from him yesterday because we were close to deadline and majority wouldn't gather on him. Now he's the wagon with the most votes so I'm definitely not jumping.

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@Derek Uh, sorry, I'll post petroleum's ISO within an hour, I ended up being less active than I thought I would due to reasons.

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1.)

petroleumjelly

2 mafia members + 1 serial killer in a 13 player setup looks anti-mafia.

Then I don't trust your definition of balance very much. You also rather ignored all of the other reasons why even assuming there is a Serial Killer this is not "literally MYLO."

And please answer my question: what do you think of Eggman?

2.)

On one hand SK will probably try to target Mafia. On the other one, eliminating him would get us rid of one NK.

In just about all cases we are

much

better off lynching mafia over a Serial Killer. If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask.

I like petroleum's answers to Creature, who wasn't making much sense at the time, as usual.

Have I asked for a more detailed explanation already? To me it seems lynching SK is great too because we drop from 2 NKs to just 1. Or do YOU have something against lynching SK?

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

2.)

I have not been terribly interested in the Infinity 324 v Dragon of the West argument. I think Infinity 324 has been overselling his arguments against Dragon of the West, while Dragon of the West is similarly overselling his defense. In other words: I do not think the case against Dragon of the West is particularly

strong

, though I do think there are points against him; Infinity 324 seems to be acting like there is more than there is. Dragon of the West has responded to these concerns, but is acting like he has somehow "proved" the case against him is wrong (when really, he has just responded to it). Dragon of the West has also made a couple of posts today where he has used the logic "I am Town, therefore your statement that includes me as scum is wrong in that respect and logically means X" that have not been great.

I will ask a question, though:

3.)

Infinity 324, could you please quote and explain why you think Dragon of the West has been "

over

defensive"? And why does that make him scum?

If your best guess for scum is a person who trolled and was inactive whole game to the point of being replaced, then it's really bad. And as I said already, being replaced is in no way alignment indicative.

We have less than three days until deadline.

I personally like the DrippingGoofball wagon.

Smithereens had three strange pushes on Day One for lynches: trying to get Creature to put Eggman back at L-1; trying to bargain with Robbnva to lynch Creature Day One in exchange for lynching crazycrabman on Day Two (which is also 'setting up lynches'); and trying to get me to vote for crazycrabman at the end of Day One over MarioManiac4 because the players voting for MarioManiac4 were 'nincompoops'. All of these pushes felt like there was an agenda behind them, and Townspeople on the whole do not play with agendas. Coupled with Smithereens' point-of-view that players should always play "towards their win-con," this suggests that Smithereens pushes are even more likely to have an agenda (or pushing towards a win-con). DrippingGoofball's replacement into that slot has not inspired me for reasons I have already mentioned, and her latest antics ("help me bus my scumbuddy!") do nothing to help my opinion of her.

I don't see how "setting up lynches" is as horrible as you make it out to be. Also, you accused me of not wanting to shift lynch and now you accuse Smith of tryign to persuade you to shift?

You're reaching, trying to portray Smith's words about POV as somme kind of scumslip.

You're scum to me.

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Would still prefer a Creature lynch though. Has he been prodded/is he on V/LA? He's been inactive for over 4 days.

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Moar replacements.
inb4 Creature being replaced is a tell.

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Why are there so many reads based of nothing more than meta, it's so trash.

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EBWOP: Maybe reads acquired this way are not trash but they're hard to respond to.

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@NJAC:

@F-oh-ex:

I never managed to ask this. How do you feel about MM4's defense of Smithereens, given it seemed to you that Smith was your toppest townread?

I don't really feel anything about it. DGB did shake my townread on Smith a bit but I'll hold on my final opinion until I ISO them both.
I don't think bad of MM4's defence of Smith, just like I don't feel bad about Titus defending Smith just a few posts above, for the reason stated above.
Although my biggest reason for townleaning on MM4 - not being partners with Creature - is out the window since we probably have a SK.

Egg, why do you think we have a Vig? Shooting Robb/Dwlee would make little to no sense for a Vig and perfect sense for a SK.

@DotW: Egg is Town though. This idea was still horrible.

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Not even one page while I was gone, wow... that's sad.

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Your avatar is so adorable I want to be friends with you but I don't think that's happening :c

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NJAC lynch is stupid and anyone who's voting him should reread last pages of Day 1.

I'm not avoiding you, petroleum, although I admit I wasn't very active recently. This whole game is a graveyard, ngl.

NJAC is still Town, no way MM4 was scum. DotW is one of few people who actually try in this game (hypocrisy much since I wasn't active for a few days) and he actually makes sense while doing so. DGB is being scummy but it seems that arrogance and "f you" attitude comes with being an old timer on mafiascum. Not that it's an excuse, I wouldn't mind taking a closer look at them.

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@Titus DGB claimed shooting PJ though. However, this probably means we do have another scum - I agree with what Shiro said. And Mafia's kill was obviously either docced/blocked or they targetted the same person DGB did. Same thing would have had to happen Night 1 too though...

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@Titus DGB claimed shooting PJ though. However, this probably means we do have another scum - I agree with what Shiro said. And Mafia's kill was obviously either docced/blocked or they targetted the same person DGB did. Same thing would have had to happen Night 1 too though...

I believe Mafia can kill mafiosos; maybe they killed Infinity because they didn't want a replacement? And also for more SK confusion which is always nice.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

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1. AFAIK general role for PRs is no self-targetting.
2. What would Mafia possibly gain by killing their partner at night? Just... what? Go eat a Snickers or something.
I swear, if you weren't town, Egg...

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From what I read on wiki, SK is often Bulletproof/X-shot Bulletproof. That could also explain the "missing" kills.

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Interesting (although probably irrelevant fact): everyone alive was either on Shiro wagon (DotW and I) or NJAC wagon (the rest).

Egg is Town.
DGB's claim would have to be some kind of sick weird gambit if he's not Town. And I did townread Smithereens.
DotW is also pretty Townish in my eyes.
Titus is a townlean from skimming her ISO. Her previous slot, atm, was completely NAI.

Derek12, I really didn't like his Day 2 play, especially that hammer. Was it necessary to push the game forward and it was the only wagon happening? My townlean here is nullified. Slight FoS until I ISO you meticulously.
Shiro - your slot reeked of scum so much that I'd be inclined to think you're Jester if this was still a thing. I wish I had gathered some info about you but so far, you're scum to me.

I'll redo some ISOs, starting with Titus and Derek - they're the quickest ones to do.

That splits my current read list in 4-2. General consensus seemed to be that the setup is either 10v3 or 9v3v1. It seems that presence of SK is confirmed now. So unless it's actually 9v2v1, I'm one scumread short... time to verify my Townreads then.

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If I'm not mistaken, 3/7 have claimed already. I guess it's too early for massclaim?

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Do we have an SK, and some kills were stopped?

Mafia died Night 2 and you, the Vig claim, claimed not to have killed him. That means we have another Vig (very improbable), SK or it's a multiball setup. It's my first game outside Newbie Games here so I'm not sure what makes more sense, multiball or a Serial Killer. Since no one has mentioned multiball so far, I'm going to go with a Serial Killer.

I'll repeat myself - from what I read on wiki, SKs are often Bulletproof/X-shot Bulletproof. That could explain the missing kills. Another explanation will be that 2 people targetted the same person but it would have to happen twice in a row.

Now, tactical question: Assuming it's 4v2v1 (I think the general consensus was that we started with 9v3v1), do we want to lynch Mafia or SK?

1. If we lynch Mafia, we go to 4v1v1 at Night. At this point, the most likely outcomes are 3v1 (which is great, given our current situation) or 2v1v1 (which would be horrible as the game is out of our hands).
2. If we lynch SK, we go to 4v2 at Night. Unless we have some kill stopping role, we go to 3v2. And even if we do, we can't count on stopping the kill. This puts at LyLo twice in a row.

At first glance it seems that lynching Mafia is a high risk high reward scenario but how the game goes depends largely on nightkills. Lynching SK puts us in double LyLo but we know we won't autolose at Night.

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Legit

We might mot have a vig

Have an sk and you are scum pretending to be a vig

We have a SK, regardless of whether DGB is a Vig or not.

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Not sure I really have time for this game. If I can't make time to read and post in the next couple days, I will request replacement. In the middle of buying a house (among other things), so my time has been severely crunched.

Congratulations PJ!!! That's really awesome. Also you're conftown, thanks.

Quick skim through DGB's ISO and I found this. I haven't read it meticulously yet but by Ctrl + F-ing I haven't found DGB scumreading PJ after that. PJ scumread DGB whole time and voted him, though. As of now, I don't see why DGB would shoot PJ as Vig.

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I could see DGB as SK and Derek + Shiro as Mafia tbh but I'll need to take a really close look at DGB. For instance, why would she claim a kill on PJ and not Infinity if she's a SK pretending to be a Vig? As I stated in my read list, she could be gambitting well and I don't think she would blunder that hard... Just thinking aloud here, won't say more on DGB before ISOing her.

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As of now, I don't see why DGB would shoot PJ as Vig.

I thought his tunnel on me was scummy

That's a terrible reason considering you claimed to have townread PJ all the way through day 2, even going as far as calling him confirmed Town. You continued to townread him while he scumread you, saying "lol PJ you always scumread me".

My first posts when I replaced in were HUGE HONKING HINTS that I was the vig.

Crumbing Vig doesn't confirm you as Vig if you had a plan to fakeclaim it all along.

On one hand SK will probably try to target Mafia. On the other one, eliminating him would get us rid of one NK.

I get that, but the scum is always more worried about SKs than town.

No one is considering a vig for the second kill?

Well maybe not "honking" LOL

But looking that up I saw that some players were SK-hunting MAYBE it was because THEIR KILL FAILED how 'bout that

Now you're reaching and grasping at straws. As I already said, Town would have little reason to shoot either Robb or Dwlee. Scum would gladly kill both for leading. You're trying to make a case that Shiro and I are scum because her slot and I discussed existence of SK. By the way, I'm pretty sure at least half of the players talked about SK, now just us two so nice tunnel.

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Oops, I addressed Shiro as "her", I confused Shiro's and DGB's pronouns. My apologies.

DGB launched a full offense here, grasping at straws while doing so and trying to handwave her inconsistency concerning PJ's death. There is no way that is Town.

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

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If DGB is SK, we don't have a Vig which means DGB killed Infinity and not petroleum. As per not claiming kill on Mafia, that might be a gambit to make claim more believable? Also to add more confusion regarding setup. I can't possibly see DGB's actions today as Town.
Eggman is Town, just confused though.

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If DGB is SK, we don't have a Vig which means DGB killed Infinity and not petroleum. As per not claiming kill on Mafia, that might be a gambit to make claim more believable?

That makes no sense

There is zero logic in any of this

It's an attempt to reversee engineer what you're doing. There's no way you're Town after what you've tried to pull today.

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@Eggman Lynching a VT at this point would probably put as at 3v2v1 during the Night. We'd be lucky if that became 2v1v1 which forces us to NL and hope for crosskill again.

@Titus Refer to my analysis a few posts earlier regarding amount of KPN. Also refer to my post about why DGB is scum.

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I am trying to crack it too. My thinking is that DGB might have thought that claiming kill on Infinity would be seen as too obvious a fakeclaim. SK who claims Vig after a successful scum kill is such a cliche (at least where I play) that it would immediately raise suspicions. Claiming kill on pj could give her more credibility in the long run and send Town searching for a SK elsewhere. It's a good gambit, I must admit.

If you read my read list from today, you'll notice I mentioned such a gambit as very unlikely. However, DGB's later actions made her a conf scum to me.

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The only way DGB could be evil is that SK!DGB is pretty damn sure there is no vig and lied about their shot for towncred as the wtf kind

If 2 kills happened during 2 Nights and each time SK was responsible for one of them, that's a pretty good indicator there is no Vig.

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Nothing that has happened so far suggests presence of three killers while Mafia and SK are both confirmed.

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Your new avatar is so kawaii, Shiro! What character is that?

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Added to "to read list", thanks ^^

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I'll be gone for about ~36 hours, starting now. I may take a quick peeks here but I won't have time to make longer posts.

I'll pose some questions that I'll think about during this time and I want you to do the same.

1. What's the current setup? There was only a single NK tonight but the presence of SK is still confirmed unless DGB lied about her N2 target, something Town would have no reason to do. The difference between 2v2v1 and 3v1v1 is crucial here.
2. Are we massclaiming? If yes, which method do we use?

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I also believe it's time for us to have not Townreads and Scumreads but Townreads, SK reads and Mafia reads. We have tools to do so now, with the flips that already happened.

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@F-oh-ex: if anything, SK is now explicitly deconfirmed. There was only one NK in play because we lynched the other one yesterday. SKs are always compulsive, no? So I believe it's 3v2. So this is LYLO.

Are you still proposing that mafia decided to shoot themselves during the night? Unless DGB lied, there needs to be another source of kills for night 2 to make sense.

You merely restated what I said 5 posts above but k. I don't know why Eggman doesn't get that.

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I'm in the middle of wrapping my work up. I don't want to throw everything I think just yet though.

I'm worried by the amount of lurking we have at the start of this day.

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3v2 LyLo is not impossible, I must say after having thought it through. We know from DGB's flip she lied a bit about her role - claiming 2-shot while being 3-shot. I think it's possible that she didn't claim a kill on Infinity in order to send Mafia searching for a Serial Killer, rather than to kill her at night. The flaw in this reasoning is that DGB didn't come clean about it while self-hammering.

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Not necessarily. It's possible for two parties to target the same person for a night kill.

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There's no way we can get a post from everyone within 3 minutes. It's forum, not chat.

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Is everyone afraid to talk?

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I'll post my full ISO of Derek later. From my POV, however, it's very likely he's scum and seeing how we're at LyLo, I would like his claim. And I would like it now. If I don't see a claim in the next post Derek makes, I'm automatically lynching him.

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@DotW It's 3v2 or 3v1v1 or 2v2v1. The first two scenarios are straight-up LyLos, whereas in the third one we need to lynch Mafia.

@Eggman Refusing to claim at this point is anti-town, especially when a wagon is forming. The fact that no one but Titus bothered to reply to my post about massclaim is suspicious too. He's dodging a claim and I do have some info about him so yes, I am willing to lynch for it.

@Derek12 That's a cute OMGUS. I'm on phone so have trouble with quoting but let me get back to your ISO later tonight.

VOTE: Derek

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Skimming through it, I recalled correctly - you never even put a read list. This allows you to make a bullshit rhetoric about PoE. It's also curious because the two people you pressured were Egg and Dragon, who you now claim to be your townreads

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I'll have access to my laptop in ~12 hours from now. I'll be checking from my phone every once in a while.

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So expect Derek's/Dragon's/Titus' ISOs then. I doubt I'll post all 3 but at least 1 will be there.

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You're right about 3v1v1, I should have said Possible LyLo. Thing is, for 3v1v1, we have the game in our hands. NL leaves it in hands of scum and possibly makes us lose - in case of town deaths/other setup

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I'm in a league game I'm busy

But seriously

VOTE: Creature

Serious vote.

VOTE: F-oh-ex

Rob pretty much said what I was thinking, we're out of RVS and the shitposting comment seems like an excuse for not posting real content.

That's a very quick jump considering Creature was a "serious vote".

Surely, if they were an average player I would push him harder, but compared to Newbie 1715, he looks very different.

What if he is an average player and he's just very manipulative?

You said you read parts of Newbie 1715 right? I skimmed it for fun a bit before this game started, and it makes me highly doubt this.

You skimmed Newbie 1715 pregame for fun? And then you use it to handwave someone's thought? You make me chuckle.

I'm here now. I'd prefer crab lynch, but I wouldn't really have a problem with going Mario instead if needed. Since we seem to be getting an extension, I'll likely be online around deadline to swap if needed.

You scumread crab pretty strongly throughout the whole day but you never said anything about Mario. I don't think that Town!you would want to swap there.

Then there are like bazillion posts pressuring Creature. Creature, who was a Village Idiot at that point, was a good choice to stick to in order to look as if you were scumhunting.

@F-oh-ex: if anything, SK is now explicitly deconfirmed. There was only one NK in play because we lynched the other one yesterday. SKs are always compulsive, no? So I believe it's 3v2. So this is LYLO.

Are you still proposing that mafia decided to shoot themselves during the night? Unless DGB lied, there needs to be another source of kills for night 2 to make sense.

Eggman works in mysterious ways.

These scream "noise post" to me.

Frankly, there's just not much in your ISO, you spent the game sticking to crab and Creature but there's just not a lot of substance anywhere. Just as if you were faking just enough presence to look okay.

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One-Shot BP

And you never thought about sharing that information, which could shed some light on the setup, even today when I proposed massclaim?

I'm not sure what to think about this claim, it's really fishy to me. You didn't claim VT but I did say I have some info about you and I already softed Neapolitan so hard it was basically a claim (add Eggman pointing it out too) so it was obvious I inspected you.

If if's not obvious, my N1 inspect was Eggman as VT. I went from scumreading him Day 1 to subtly townreading him day 2, then I started to straight up calling him town. My N2 inspect was DGB but it didn't turn out to be relevant.

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Whoo, we broke 2000 posts.

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That RQS was a strong soft and later you pointed it out in my ISO.
I gave my results a few posts above already: Eggman as VT, DGB as not VT, Derek as not VT.

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Not gonna lie, I was quite obnoxious in the later days. I banked on Eggman trusting, glad to see I wasn't mistaken.

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Funny thing is, I didn't intend to crumb Neapolitan. It's legit my favourite dessert.

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I had this game solved I wish I rolled BP

Precisely why you were #1 candidate for a NK.

And thanks, @Titus, @Infinity 324 :3