Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[Smithereens]

First Thoughts: 'Damn 3 pages already this game is hella active'
*reads the game*
3 people engaged in small chat... :\


VOTE: Creature
Somewhat serious vote, not entirely RVS. There's absolutely no way you're getting a town read from the very first post a person makes in the game. If you could I'd just copy/paste that post everywhere I went as scum and you'd be none the wiser. Possible that Creature is buddying, I don't like how he talks about 'early town activity' or some shit like that as if he's trying to seem a part of it.

[Smithereens]

I'll give Dwlee benefit of doubt and assume he's being antagonistic for the sake of arguments/activity. Not an ideal tact imo given all the activity, so take the hint.

[Smithereens]

First Thoughts: 'Damn 3 pages already this game is hella active'
*reads the game*
3 people engaged in small chat... :\


VOTE: Creature
Somewhat serious vote, not entirely RVS. There's absolutely no way you're getting a town read from the very first post a person makes in the game. If you could I'd just copy/paste that post everywhere I went as scum and you'd be none the wiser. Possible that Creature is buddying, I don't like how he talks about 'early town activity' or some shit like that as if he's trying to seem a part of it.

This post fits perfectly a scum being opportunistic. Robbnva is having problems with early townreads, so what would stop scum from supporting him and make stupid lynches?

I believe this was the first non RVS vote of the game. How informed do you want it to be...? Read it in context please.

[Smithereens]

I believe this was the first non RVS vote of the game.

well you're wrong

I'm not. However you missed my point, Creature reacted really poorly to a vote that was justified for that point in the game. With more material I wouldn't say that I should keep my vote there, however I didn't expect Creature to feel so threatened by it. A hit maybe? That would be damned interesting, however I'd preferably like to hear what he says for himself before we discuss meta on reactions vs innocuous posts. Sufficient to say that there's plenty to investigate here.

[Smithereens]

Missed that entirely, I stand corrected.

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^ Dwlee appears to be self-assertive as a person so the first half of that sentence answers your own point.

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@Creature, your stated reason for your town reads is that you don't think scum would push like that. This 'push' you referenced was literally their first post. I'm not sure what Robbnva has to do with this either.

[Smithereens]

@Creature, your stated reason for your town reads is that you don't think scum would push like that. This 'push' you referenced was literally their first post. I'm not sure what Robbnva has to do with this either.

"referenced"

Would like to see where I referenced the first post.

Early townreads on Dwlee99 and Derek12.

Why?

Because of their pushes.

VOTE: Robbnva
Actually 100% serious this person is probably scum
pedit creature wtf I used brackets last game we played..

I'm in a league game I'm busy

But seriously

VOTE: Creature

Serious vote.

I was incorrect in thinking it was their first posts, but there you have it. I'm curious that you interpreted this as being opportunistic, despite RVS still being a thing. Do you claim your town read is genuine? Or just an RVS construct as well? O.o

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So you think the scumteam in a 13-player game would be three people?

That sounds like he was trying to force a townslip out of himself.

^this, also the fact that the question is not phrased to imply that he's looking for an answer so much as he wants to be seen asking it:
'How many scum are in this game?' is excusable sometimes.
'So you think the scumteam in a 13-player game would be three people?' Not really.

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Creature ignore my early scum read of you. There were many faulty assumptions I made.

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I'll catch up later, can't vote atm

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I'll catch up later, can't vote atm

can't vote?

It means I'm not always at my computer.

VOTE: Eggman

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the fuck are you talking to?

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people have been referring me to Robbnva or something he did and haven't explained what they are talking about actually.

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VOTE: MarioManiac4

Let's go here, his play here is WAY different than his town play I know.

Suddenly switches wagons from a perfectly valid one based on a contrived excuse.

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I've been ISOing everybody and:
- Eggman has crumbed VT, which I find very unlikely he'd do that as scum.
- There are 6 players scum reading him excluding me.

So I am no longer scumreading Eggman.

This is utter scum. No you didn't ISO everyone that's pretty obvious, you're simply trying to make a reason to not scum read Eggman. Furthermore there are 6 players scum reading him means that clearly a lot of townies are scum reading him, why the fuck is that a reason to cancel your scum read??

Answer is it isn't. You don't have any reason to stop scum reading him since we both know your first reason is clearly BS. The second reason however is the one which stinks the most.

Imo Creature is likely scum with Eggman. Let's flip Eggman for a better idea.

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The early incident vs Creature I'm convinced was actually a hit. I wasn't sure if it was just an over-reaction that town could have done, but seeing that Creature does not want Eggman to die for no good reason at all, I'm inclined to interpret his earlier reactions as scummy.

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Do you mean sheep you or Buddy you?

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An Eggman lynch would be quite informative about Creature, so I prefer to lynch Eggman over Creature despite my scum read on Creature being slightly stronger.

Lol about the buddying thing, it's as if it's illegal to scum read a player if someone else is already doing it hmm. If Creature was the one who brought that up, that's just going to fuel my scum read I think.

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I'd discount the number of people voting him, but honestly his crumb is pretty much genuine, so he's either VT or was planning to claim that, but I don't expect him to plan his claim tbh. Also, he's actually trying to contribute, which is a towntell for someone that looks pretty much mislynch bait (I've already played with him).

>A VT does not claim VT, on Day 1, before being pressured. It's anti-town, contrary to town thought processes, town don't do it etc. Not even town newbies do it. Newb scum do it.

>I'm contributing more yet you scum read me. Contribution, which he definitely is not doing, is not AI.

>Could you reply to my post re:your claims?

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I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

but you see him doing it as town? when he has never done an RQS ever before

Yes, as he's often lynched D1, he should be ready when it comes to him to claim.

Links please, I suspect you're making shit up.

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ok.

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I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

but you see him doing it as town? when he has never done an RQS ever before

Yes, as he's often lynched D1, he should be ready when it comes to him to claim.

Links please, I suspect you're making shit up.

we already discussed this I believe. Creature and robbnva talked about Eggman's 3 games

Yeah I saw immediately following, however this question still needs to be asked. Why did he make that up?

Obviously he wasn't expecting the other players to check his claims and find him wrong, so there is clearly a motive here.

[Smithereens]

That assumption is nonsense, clarify it please.

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I played with him at Newbie 1703, I watched him play Micro 614 and I heard about him in Newbie 1691.

This is not adding up.

You played with him in Newbie 1703, you saw him get mislynched. You watched him play mirco 614, you

saw him get killed on Day 3.

You heard about him in Newbie 1691, you have no idea what happened.

So where did "he's often lynched D1" come from?

Contrived defense is a contrived defense imo. Also, read your own post, you must think we're idiots.

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From the posts I've been reading on Micro 614, there seemed to have lot of suspicion on Eggman.

Why are you reading 614 now? You supposedly came to this conclusion before this game even started that Eggman was mislynch bait no?

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Actually we're discussing it because you're ignoring the other points, such as why you decided to make up 'facts' to support your reasons in the first place. If you just reinstate your vote on Eggman it should all be fine.

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it's an observation, don't be offended.

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@Robb, it's unnecessary to construe that to imply something scummy. I get the idea that you think he's scummy because he hasn't been able to read you based on your posts thus far. Fwiw I can't read anything AI in your posts thus far either.

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such as?

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im not implying anything. I'm genuinely worried that at this point he doesn't have more reads. Tbh I have posted enough I should be more than a null for anyone. People should be able to tell if they think I'm townish or scummish. the fact that anyone is null reading me still is worrisome. As for not having anything AI in my posts, I find that quite amusing. I fee there's plenty I've said that can lead people to determine my alignment.

This is incorrect. I'd complain about how many people on this site believe that affiliation can always be determined by a good enough number of posts -It cannot. I won't go anymore into that because of irrelevancy, however you're wrong if you think you can be accurately read based of posts. If you could then mafia would be impossible to play etc.

[Smithereens]

Imagine I were scum this game, that's a perfectly valid hypothesis. If you town read me simply because I've been actively scum hunting I'd survive and shoot you all dead and win the game. Would you as town want this to happen? No. Therefore remember that a whole pile of posts that someone makes is not AI.

Small things that can't be explained as town, such as objectively stating a falsehood to support a point you want others to believe (Creature) are things we can use for scum hunting. You're basically saying that people can read people just by reading what they say in general. This is a perfect example of a mislynch strategy.

Also, I've explained why Eggman needs to die before creature and not afterwards.

[Smithereens]

An Eggman lynch would be quite informative about Creature, so I prefer to lynch Eggman over Creature despite my scum read on Creature being slightly stronger.

@Robb,

If Egg flips town, then i don't scum read Creature. That's what's so conditional about it. I'm aware that I could be wrong, you clearly don't share my awareness.

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No this is a really basic concept I don't see why I'm still explaining it.

Creature is the one pulling the scum moves, however these scum moves are scum insofar as Eggman is scum. If Eggman is town, then I am incorrect in thinking that this is Creature defending a scum buddy.

For fucks sake.

[Smithereens]

I think I understand your pov but I don't necessarily agree with it. I think we learn much more from a creature lynch, at least I would. Would help me figure out at least 2 people plus he's scummy

So you're saying you were arguing from a completely premise from the start? Jesus. I clearly can't learn whatever it is you're looking for since I'm not you...

Well at least I know what your issue with me was now. >.>

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Smithereens: how would you feel about the scumminess of Creature's defense if, hypothetically:
a. we were both town
d. I was town, and it was mafioso
b. we were both mafiosos
c. I was mafioso, and it was town

(I think that we're both town, and the "scummy" part of Creature's defense is just it misremembering stuff (I do that a lot as town, too).)

Creature is scummy because what he has done is best explained by defending a scum buddy. If you're town, this assumption is wrong. If you're scum, this assumption is most likely correct. There's no 4 options.

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@Robb, my entire suggestion is that we lynch Eggman -> Creature. My ordering makes more sense because I don't have a case against Creature if it turns out that Eggman is town.

@Dwlee fucking well spotted lol.

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From what I recall I publically retracted my earlier reasoning vs Creature and replaced with the argument that he's clearly defending a scum buddy in Eggman.

I'm going to sleep, If the Eggman wagon doesn't go ahead, I'm fine for killing Creature.

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Why so many votes on Crazy when there's an objectively sound case on Eggman and Creature..?

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Dwlee your scum reads in Eggman and Creature are both on the crazy wagon and that doesn't at all concern you?? WTF?!

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

I'm thinking Crazy is a counter wagon to relieve pressure off Creature. Atm help lynch this guy. Eggman isn't happening.

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Dwlee your scum reads in Eggman and Creature are both on the crazy wagon and that doesn't at all concern you?? WTF?!

who said I was still scum reading them?

Is this to say that you're not scum reading them?

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Dwlee your scum reads in Eggman and Creature are both on the crazy wagon and that doesn't at all concern you?? WTF?!

who said I was still scum reading them?

Is this to say that you're not scum reading them?

:OO

I was fishing for something tangible, please give it to me.

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ffs you're mature af. If you want me to talk to you in the same way I'd talk to a challenged person, that's fine too.

What caused you to stop scum reading Eggman/Creature?
What caused you to move to Crazy?

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It really stinks that two really good wagons mysteriously disassembled themselves in favour of a guy who merely looks fishy. If this wagon is a mislynch, at least it will be an informative mislynch.

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Smitherines. honest opinion does the person who made this post look like the person playing this game?

He hasn't done a post in that format this game, so what? Excuse me for being skeptical but my games differ even more than his when I'm town. There was one game where I got removed and banned for a week as a townie. Are you going to scum read me because I'm acting completely different?

The scum case on Eggman and Creature is so much more solid and you know it. You're just reaching for reasons to vote Crazy and that's something you called out creature for doing. A tad hypocritical if you ask me.

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It really stinks that two really good wagons mysteriously disassembled themselves in favour of a guy who merely looks fishy. If this wagon is a mislynch, at least it will be an informative mislynch.

The scum!crab is just super hard to explain. Pretty much every post he makes makes me suspicious of him but finding reasoning to back my gut / tone based read on him is ugh

I can smell a town victory already with the quality of this play.

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The scum case on Eggman and Creature is so much more solid and you know it. You're just reaching for reasons to vote Crazy and that's something you called out creature for doing. A tad hypocritical if you ask me.

Sorry, but I can't see a town mindset saying that.

You've coughed up a rather generic line to use here, and it doesn't fit the situation. Pleasure refer to your text book for a more suitable generic quote.

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@Rob, go ahead and add me to your scum list right below all of creature, Eggman and Crazy, in fact move your vote to me as well, because your logic basically condemns anyone who plays differently from game to game, and I know for a fact that my play is far more inconsistent than any player in this entire game..

You don't appear to want to believe that your reasoning is flawed whatsoever. It's even beyond confbias.

@Creature, Damn what a witty comeback! I'm feeling the Burnn D:

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@Rob

You called Creature's backflip weird, and now you're basically saying that I'm weird for repeating your reasons vs your current wagon??

Your scum reads on Creature and Eggman are far better than this case you're claiming is AI on whatshisface. I'm literally the spitting image of yourself here if you can recall yourself using these words.

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Right, so my error was in believing that you were driving for a Crab lynch at the expense of a creature lynch. That sits better with me, dw.

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It's so funny when someone accuses me of lying but are lying themselves.

atm487 in Newbie 1715:
"How to vote?"
*hammers tojam2*

What's this? A solid reason to vote Atm in this game?

I do hope you're self aware enough to not say stupid things like this really... >.>

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watching you Dragon~

O.o

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That thought process: [found one scum, move on, find another] doesn't actually occur to townies too often I realise. The fact that multiple players are expressing confusion over your vote should alert you to this fact.

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To be fair, yes it's logical. But I don't actually think that town do this.

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Do you have a reason you think it's more likely to come from scum or is it just experience

Reason. A player who is uninformed is likely to stick to a person who they've discovered is scum with a high degree of confidence. Moving off it simply shows how little profundity the discovery actually made on the player. If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

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Reason. A player who is uninformed is likely to stick to a person who they've discovered is scum with a high degree of confidence. Moving off it simply shows how little profundity the discovery actually made on the player. If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

you are just talking out of your ass at this point.

Confirmation bias cannot be beaten, end of story. Townies should be showing all the flaws that an uninformed player should exhibit, including over confidence in a read that they believe confirms the guilt of another player. You however dropped this tangible and highly convincing case against Creature in favour of poking a far less suspicious player for a reason that I've already demonstrated is absolutely not AI.

I'd say you panicked when it appeared that Creature was about to get lynched, and now you're trying to get pressure off him.

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you REALLY don't want crab lynched.... I wonder why that is?

your reaction to the attention he got is actually why i'm not moving off him anytime soon. Your reaction is far more suspicious than creatures 180

You're diverting attention from a scum lynch, the affiliation of Crab is actually irrelevant to this matter since he hasn't said anything that can be considered scummy. Inb4 you say 'he's' acting different, go back and reply to the fact that I act different in my town games, and I know a lot of players do since it isn't AI.

You're really looking for a way to stay off the Creature wagon it's pretty clear.

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If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

like this part right here can no way come from a rational thinking townie.

I am playing against my win condition because I think it is better to pressure people instead of limiting the search to 1/2 people especially when we have a bunch of inactive people, people doing jack shit, and even lurkers?

the fact that you want to stay focused on creature/egg and ignore everyone else actually worries me if you are town. it shows you are close minded and town should not be close minded, they should be open minded.

Concern about our wincon is shown when a player get's excited about a discovery of scum they have just made, or concern about other players backflipping on their reads for shit reasons.

It doesn't matter what you believe about open-mindedness when I'm actually claiming that your apathy towards Creature (which you're construing as 'open-mindedness') is actually a scum tell.

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I think smithereens is town but he's weirdly using logic I don't agree with at all to come to conclusions that may make sense

There is nothing weird about the fact that it's not normal for a town to not get hyped about finding a scum and just leave it be. It's like a gold miner who finds a massive nugget and just leaves it in the ground so that he can dig up some more dirt. No, people with a vested interest in finding scum tend to act like a miner looking for gold.

My thoughts on creature is that he is clear scum.

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Before Rob says "Omg now you think Creature is clearly scum when you wanted Eggman lynched."

Refer to my ISO.

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Disappointed that you refuse to see reason, I'll lay it out in syllogism then.

1) A scum case based on behavioural differences between games is valid insofar as it remains consistent
2) It is not consistent
C) It is not valid.

>You are diverting attention away from a scum lynch because your reasons to vote creature far, far outweigh your reasons to vote Crab, yet you insist it is better to be voting Crab.
>I haven't talked about Creature as if he was about to be lynched. However it is quite obvious that a wagon requires votes in order for a lynch to occur, and you are most certainly going to stick with Crab until he is lynched, at the cost of Creature surviving into the night.
>Crab hasn't said anything AI. Please re-check your reads
>Creature isn't going to get close to a lynch because people like you are voting on crap wagons. Now you're saying that you'll vote creature if he gets close to a lynch, but conveniently ignore the fact that that can't happen if people are going to vote randomly.

You also need to stop thinking that I'm town reading Crab.

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^^ I think that's town

no it isn't. He's made several similar posts that overtly attempt to look townie, please don't be gullible.

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It's either town or scum that is quite good at faking emotion

It's not the first time he's chosen to not answer a question in favour of spitting out a generic pro town statement:

I'm not worried about how my actions are perceived.

He isn't good at faking it at all.

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@Rob, If there's a reason to be diverting votes from Crab to Creature, it's because Creature is scum, and we don't know (read: can't know atm) what affiliation Crab is. I haven't dismissed the possibility that he's scum, I'm arguing that there is an elephant of a scum in this room, and we have a whole group of people piling onto a bystander. It looks as stupid as it sounds.


@Infinity, Yes I can see Rob as town, given I'd expect a scum rob to be more concerned about the consistency of their posts.
In other words, a town read from scummy behaviour.

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@Rob, I'll propose a trade, I'll sheep your vote on Crab tomorrow if we lynch Creature today. Everyone wins, except for Creature and Crab.

@Infinity, My tone right now is fucking annoyed and you can clearly see it. Do you see how easy it is for me/everyone to make their tone appear however they want??

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@Infinity, I'm not annoyed, this is actually how I talk in mafia games in general and you'll often see me making apologies to players who take it to heart. For your future reference, any emotion is easily faked, especially if the player is going out of their way to make a comment that will be interpreted in that fashion.

Furthermore if you're going to say that Creature is town and we should start a new wagon, I'd simply say that you're going to end up giving scum counter wagon options and we'll end the day with a mislynch on a player who isn't Creature.

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@Rob, you explain the point well, however it simply becomes more clear that you've recognised the fact that the evidence against Creature is empirical, and the evidence against Crab is conditional. Putting your vote against a player for not giving good reasoning does not motivate that player to give better reasons. That fundamental study on human behviour is why the death penalty has been abolished in so many countries: The threat of punishment does not change behaviour.

The only useful place for a vote is to kill scum, and atm you're hoping it will do things that it clearly isn't going to do by pursuing a side show to Creature.

@Infinity, I don't fake annoyance, this is simply how I talk, and IRL I don't feel annoyed at all since I understand perfectly why people would disagree with me.

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@Rob, I'm worried about your vote Rob because your vote stands out for being incongruent with arguments that you levied at Creature to accuse him of being scum. The other players don't stand out at all in terms of their votes. Also, be patient with your requests for replies. As you can see you're not the only one.

@Infinity, don't get tied up over the fact that I am or aren't faking my annoyance, I might end up getting annoyed. Lurking from experience does not actually happen despite how many people think it does.

@Dragon, Incorrect. The point is that a townie doesn't play in that fashion, because it involves a detachment of concern from finding scum. Yes, theoretically it is good play. Town don't do this 'good play,' because it actually doesn't reflect a straight forward pursuit of the town win con. It's more how an emotionless robot would play the game, or a scum with no interest in helping the town. Also, this is what I meant by saying you need to be watched. You're a spectator who is throwing opinions at material other people are saying and not attempting to contribute yourself. We don't need a commentator in a mafia game.

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@Rob, you explain the point well, however it simply becomes more clear that you've recognised the fact that the evidence against Creature is empirical, and the evidence against Crab is conditional. Putting your vote against a player for not giving good reasoning does not motivate that player to give better reasons. That fundamental study on human behviour is why the death penalty has been abolished in so many countries: The threat of punishment does not change behaviour.

The only useful place for a vote is to kill scum, and atm you're hoping it will do things that it clearly isn't going to do by pursuing a side show to Creature.

thanks for bringing up facts about the death penalty... that's totally going to change my mind...

The only useful place for a vote is to kill scum? That is factually incorrect.

Votes are often used for pressure, pressuring players is a good way to not only determine their alignment, but also later for vote count analysis.

Please refrain from telling me how to use my vote and also refrain from trying to teach me incorrect mafia theory.

Thank you

Is it really a surprise that this site's meta and long held traditions are wrong? MS has a widespread belief that scum act in clearly defined ways and it's wrong as well. you're buying one of these theories which I explained was wrong before. I assume you agree with me because you didn't reply to it.

The use of votes for pressure does not give the results that people believe it does. You think voting someone makes them act pro-town? No. Furthermore, this is counter-productive to our aims. We want the scum to act more scummy and the townies to act more townies. Voting a suspected scum to make them act more townie is going to screw the town over and you don't need me to tell you that.

[Smithereens]

I don't pay attention to my posts Dragon, if you read on you'll see that's why I lean town on Rob. He doesn't do it either. However, someone is wrong on the internet and it's my destiny to correct them.

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@Rob, that post means that I was worried you were after a Crab lynch. If you read my posts after that point again, you'll see that I don't work from that assumption. Instead I'm arguing that we're all ignoring the elephant in the room.

@Infinity, please re-read your post. You basically restate my position by saying they act different in way that can fit a town or scum narrative.

@Dragon, the fundamental theory is that people, all humans everywhere, overestimate the effects the the threat of punishment conveys. That extends to mafia games as well. The threat of punishment will not produce the results you believe it does.

[Smithereens]

FFS this is a false analogy: Peeling a banana is like ripping the skin off a person, therefore it is wrong to peel a banana. However let's not get sidetracked, I'm surprised you're taking issue with trivial points.

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I take it you're perpetually catching up and never expect to actually catch up then?

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I already did. It's AI and it's town AI. However you haven't played mafia long enough to know that it appears.

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for benefit of your future games, large amounts of trivial inconsistencies in a player's case is indicative of a town player, since scum are actually careful and pay attention to what they say. A player who blurts out the first thing on their mind is a strong town read and if I weren't me I'd be town reading me for my own behaviour since I haven't give a hoot about keeping up appearances.

You on the other hand are looking for a case that isn't there. I'm not going to label that scum since it appears you only need to play a few more games to understand my point, which would be sufficient to make me happy.

@Infinity, there is definitely a contradiction there. Do you really need a flip for you to learn that it isn't scummy?

[Smithereens]

Read the post immediately prior to that. Scum posts are often more water-tight in terms of consistency in tiny, insignificant details like what you pulled out.

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Why is creature town?

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Do you suggest that Creature is a newb who doesn't know what the town win con looks like..?

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Do you suggest that Creature is a newb who doesn't know what the town win con looks like..?

That's like 2 peopl you have accused of not playing against their win con which is 2 more than it should be.

If you read my post vs you, I posited you had apathy for the town wincon.

In this situation I'm not suggesting Creature is against the town wincon.

I have accused 0 players of going against a wincon.

If you lack understanding in this matter, the post your taking issue with basically asks whether or not creature is just lolvoting because he has no idea how to read. It's also a legit question.

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Creature is actively scum hunting and thereby playing to the town wincon.

Creature is not actively scum hunting.

Did you know scum scum-hunt as scum? Does that make them play to the town wincon?

I think not.

[Smithereens]

Before a semantics battle commences with Rob, I'm not interested in repeat of the last argument. If you want to misconstrue my suggestion to fit an over simplified summation of what you think my thoughts are, go right ahead.

[Smithereens]

Creature was actively scum hunting for most of the game. Creature looks town for that, scum hunting is kinda hard to fake as noob scum. In addition, he's looks very open with his thoughts which is hard to fake even for experienced scum.

What Creature is actually doing can only be explained by newb town if he is town. Scum hunting not randomly fitting scum interpretations to behaviours you see in the Day chat. Creature is doing this ergo I know he isn't scum hunting.

His thoughts are not open. Recall that he flipped on the Eggman wagon without giving any coherent reason.

[Smithereens]

Why is it weird to believe that finding scum is easiest to do by just looking for players that perform actions that don't further town interests (wincon)?

I'm going to assume differences in site culture. It's not a big issue, unless you want to make it one.

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I flipped on the Eggman wagon because I felt the reason I've given was very coherent.

You were told that you were factually incorrect about the reason for backflipping. You didn't refute those reasons either, and now it seems we're back there again.

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Yes. Scum hunting is easily faked. You'd know because you're voting me.

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I flipped on the Eggman wagon because I felt the reason I've given was very coherent.

You were told that you were factually incorrect about the reason for backflipping. You didn't refute those reasons either, and now it seems we're back there again.

It doesn't break the fact Eggman's crumb seemed to come from town.

Eggman's crumb is not AI. If it is AI, then it's scum AI. Townies don't crumb VT.

Yes. Scum hunting is easily faked. You'd know because you're voting me.

Then literally anything can be easily faked.

Gj it seems you do learn.

[Smithereens]

Semantics imo. The fact that you bring it up at all bothers me

...how about my question?

[Smithereens]

Doesn't it sound weird Smithereens pointed out the possibility I am just a newb to discredit any reads I've had this game?

Your initial premise is flawed: I never gave any credit to your 'reads' to begin with. This explanation concerns itself with how you might be town, not why your reads are wrong.

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What question?

Do you suggest that Creature is a newb who doesn't know what the town win con looks like..?

For your politically correct self I can modify it:

Do you think that Creature is a newbie town who is playing awfully because he doesn't know what he should do to make town win the game?

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If he's town I don't think he's playing against his win condition. If he's scum I don't think he's playing against his win condition.

The fact that you keep talking about it bothers me very much especially after you tried to imply I didn't care about (or was playing against) my win condition.

I'm voting you and will be ignoring you from now on cause I don't see this push coming from a townie.

vote: smitherines

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8062522

Brain fart on your behalf. Not really my concern that you see wincon differently to how I see it. It is my concern though if you're going voting again based on your own conceptions, just like before when it turned out you were literally not comprehending I was coming from a different line of thought.

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Do you think it's town saying everything can easily be faked and suggesting someone of not playing to their win condition?

Here's how I weigh scum:
Are they pushing an agenda that progresses town's wincon? Y/N.
If Y, don't lynch, If N, do lynch.

You and every other player here don't give enough attention to reading posts in the context of the wider game. You can't possibly read motives without considering which team they benefit. I appear to be the only one with these thoughts which is slightly disappointing to understate it.

[Smithereens]

Do you think it's town saying everything can easily be faked and suggesting someone of not playing to their win condition?

Here's how I weigh scum:
Are they pushing an agenda that progresses town's wincon? Y/N.
If Y, don't lynch, If N, do lynch.

You and every other player here don't give enough attention to reading posts in the context of the wider game. You can't possibly read motives without considering which team they benefit. I appear to be the only one with these thoughts which is slightly disappointing to understate it.

Here's the problem, you can't always tell exactly which wincon a person is supporting. Especially when you don't low who all of the scum are. If someone has a strong read on 2 people and is almost certain they're scum and then says those are two that need to be lynched is that town win con? For a town player it is. But if both of those lynches flip town, that player looks scummy and looks like he's playing towards scum wincon because he called for mislynches. But then he's really town and he was just trying to lynch who he thought was scum which is town win con. Oh wow by looking at wincon alone they've now mislynches three people. Super awesome

The ambiguity is why we are arguing in the first place. My position is that Creature is behaving in such a way that would save a scum buddy. He isn't progressing the game for town because if he were he would have thought up valid reasons for backflipping/ reinstate his vote after finding out that his reasons were incorrect.

[Smithereens]

yo quick question, how do I put on the tag that says "On Vacation"

User control panel -> V/LA

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Creature is obviously correct Rob.

He removed his town reads from the player list and then said that the scum must be in the players left. What are you trying to do?

[Smithereens]

a) Faulty assumption was that Creature had town read the first post some players had made in the game. This wasn't true.
b) Trading of services such as reciprocal bandwagoning with another player who I think is town is fair play, since it helps me get my lynch through and helps them get theirs.
c) It was quite apparent that Creature was trying to alleviate pressure on Eggman, which made me want to lynch him even more.

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Petroleum, it's a fair point against Rob, however I think the correct interpretation is emotional involvement. If you read your case with that presumption in mind, it suddenly stops being scum AI.

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UNVOTE:

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Robb I see you've started posting again, before you go further may I request your posts be overall less abusive towards the other players? Thx.

[Smithereens]

If you're not enjoying yourself why are you even playing in the first place? You could just ask for replacement and then everyone wins.

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There is only 1 way you can know 100% sure creature is scum... Trust me, if you have some time go read all of the games from Jake from state farm and

you will see me about a bazlilion times (obviously exaggeration of the number) claim I know somebody is 100% scum. You will also see that person flip town and I have egg on my face and a room full of pissed off people.

History repeats itself. you're claiming someone is scum because they changed their reads really haphazardly, as if that's AI in the first place.

[Smithereens]

Apply that logic to every instance where you mislynch. It's not hard to take a step back and be a bit more self-aware. You're wrapped up in your own confbias and you don't even see it omg.

[Smithereens]

Will sheep Dwlee.

VOTE: Crab

[Smithereens]

Go with the crabman wagon. The MM4 one is a pure newbie wagon it seems.

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discounting the voters on the MM4 wagon who know how to read MM4, there isn't anyone voting MM4. So not much of a wagon in other words. There's nothing wrong with that logic.

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Discounting the nincompoops who are lolvoting I said.

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We've been talking about getting their defenses but they clearly don't have much to say. Can we roll one or both up to L-1?

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what are you hoping to achieve by edging us closer to dead line? Imo hammer now just in case we meet a no-lynch because you die in your sleep IRL or something.

Wouldn't want that to happen, no...

[Smithereens]

All I know is they are either both scum or both shitty players. On this site I can't tell the difference anymore.

What site do you come from?