Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[Cass]

Hello!

So, let's see...

VOTE: Vote: Comparing Realities Because it's the longest name in the list.

PS I haven't played mafia in years (like, seven years...) so if I do something weird - I'm rusty. Feel free to tell me all about my mistakes

[Cass]

Ok, I'll try this sheeping thing... see what happens

UNVOTE: Comparing realities
VOTE: Gameplay506

Really a serious vote though, gameplays responses so far seem seriously off. And to my own surprise, I'm starting to like rb's style a lot more.

[Cass]

@Martha - not sure if you mean my post or their back and forth? Are you suggesting they are scum play-acting an argument? Or that it's odd I seem to be choosing between them?

@Naomi: I'd like you to vote for someone or explain why you won't (yet).

@Chuck: Go and Shine already! You can't hold us in suspense any longer!

[Cass]

I think it's just a funny argument. I think it's not serious. And that slug thing.
UNVOTE: Ryan
VOTE: Cass

Please explain why that is scummy and serious?

It was scummy because of post 24. Meanwhile, it wasn't a really serious conversation from what I can tell.

No RyanK, I don't agree about post 24, that doesn't look scummy to me. I thought Gameplay getting genuinely annoyed (Game's post 56 and 62) after rb voted him (which is

after

the slug-fest, hah) was an overreaction at that point. I could ofcourse be misreading tone here. Such a strong response to a vote at this stage is good enough reason to add mine.

[Cass]

Really a serious vote though, gameplays responses so far seem seriously off. And to my own surprise, I'm starting to like rb's style a lot more.

What about rb's style do you like? And do you think that's something that would be hard to replicate as scum?

He is provocative, but he is scumhunting that way. At first he seemed 'silly' ( ) but he proved there's some brains behind it. And he got an interesting response from Game, getting us firmly out of the RVS, which I really like.

Scum could replicate it, sure, but it'd take serious balls. Maybe that is happening - I haven't played with rb before, so I don't know if he would - but we have plenty of time yet to find out. So far, I like this wagon I'm on.

[Cass]

This game moves fast - sorry I can't quite keep up. I read things but don't have time to make a huge quote filled post now. Some points:
- Becoming more nervous about Naomi, because she is so very nervous. But that might be null, because she is so open about it, making it all so wifom. Sigh.
- Dierfire gives me a scum vibe, quoting weak statistics and other non-arguments as reasons for joining a wagon.
- Ryan also looks scummy, isn't contributing
- rb still sounds like town to me, plus I agree that any kind of initiative and leadership is a good thing for town
- It is annoying that not everyone has posted yet. But probably means nothing, right? I guess these people havan't even picked up their role pm's yet? ( is there a way to know? Or just to wait for the mod to update?)
- The attacks on Martha piqued my interest - it could be Naomi- scum trying to deflect attention from Dierfire- scum. Though that requires a lot of assumptions, I must reread first so I can craft a thing with quotes to maybe support it.
- Still don't like Gameplay, so I'm ok with keeping my vote on him until I have a clearer opinion on the game so far. He sounds nervous somehow, like he's hiding something ( yes, that's gut). But also doesn't seem to be actively looking for scum. He takes the 'debate' with rb as a chance to post many posts with little sustance, is my impression.

And a question for rb: Why did you take your vote off gameplay at that point? Did you think there was a real chance that scum would quickhammer? Because if they had, wouldn't that have been really helpful to town?

[Cass]

@Gameplay: wanted to add, I iso'ed you and I do like your case on Ryan. So there's some scum- hunting in your posts. Is Ryan stil your prime suspect? Who else is in your top three?

[Cass]

You still don't like Gameplay, but you like his case on Ryan?

Yes. Building a case on the scummiest player is something scum can do too. So it's not enough for me to read gameplay as town, but it is a point in his favor. (And I said he wasn't looking for scum, which isn't completely true, so I wanted to put that right.)

[Cass]

@Ryan: rb never had an actual case on gameplay, except that he got upset when attacked. It was a wagon he started to end RVS and he actually took his vote off when things got serious. And I right now am not sure who is scummiest. Gameplay, Naomi, Dierfire and Ryan are all on my list. But since that's already more than three, that can't be right Also still hoping the missing players pipe up and give us some impressions soon. Those blind spots are dangerous.

@rb: btw, I asked you a question about that, in post 272. Still curious.

[Cass]

I mean, for all we know the scum team could be Glitch + Comparing Realities + Golden and we're all just townies talking each other into corners. I hope not, also for the sake of Golden - would be sad to have daytalk and two no-show buddies

[Cass]

Hm, after a strong start this seems to be stalling a bit. So I will for now
UNVOTE: Gameplay and
VOTE: Dierfire (that's the 4th vote)

You need to participate more and defend yourself.

Also, this could be a scumslip:

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p8273867]If rb is Town, his vote is marginally more likely to be on a Mafia player than if he were Mafia. Also, if rb is Town then all other players are marginally more likely to be Mafia (from 3/12 to 3/11).[/quote]

Wouldn't those numbers be 3/11 vs 3/10? Eh? Or are you not counting yourself as town for some reason?

[Cass]

Why I changed my vote? Dierfire is in my top-4 and it is time for a wagon. L-2 doesn't bother me in this set-up. If scum want to hang themselves by quickhammering, that's a-ok by me. Gameplay had been defending himself for a while. I'm still ok with lynching him today, but it's early still. We're not yet seriously lynching anyone, just seriously voting.

@Dierfire: Oh, right, there are 13 players in this set-up. My bad. But why the vote for Golden? Do you feel there is scum on your wagon? Also, your number of posts is fine, but I would like it if they had more content. Maybe just a day 1 thing?

[Cass]

Ebwop: I mean, other scum beside Golden.

[Cass]

@Martha: Yes, sure, I'd like scum to quickhammer. If we suddenly see two votes in quick succession and a lynch, how easy are day 2 and 3 gonna be?? Do you seriously think that would happen though? If you can convince me the risk is real and it would be bad, I'll take my vote off.
And we need wagons to keep the game from stagnating. Closer to deadline, priorities will shift.

[Cass]

And Welcome Bluebloodedtoffee (sounds yummy )!

How do you feel about the Dierfire wagon? And the Gameplay wagon before that? Do you think a RyanK wagon would be better? Or do you have another candidate for scum?

[Cass]

Saru said:

Cass' 298 comes off as trying to force a town-bloc with the more active players and feels like shade being thrown towards the lurkers. Earlier in 272 he said that people probably hadn't picked up their role pm's yet so it probably means nothing. If it means nothing, why even point out that those players could be the scum team? Inconsistent thinking. Slight scum read.

How's that inconsistent? What I meant is, if there are two scum who haven't even picked up their role pms, it would make it very hard to scumhunt. Just a fact, to remind people not to forget the invisibles.

People asked me about my opnion on Gameplay: I'd say slightly scummy. He seems nervous and defensive and not very helpful. Then again, he got wagoned first and aggressively, could be a response to that. He hasn't convinced me he is town.

Is Dierfire now lurking to wait for his wagon to dissolve by itself? Something to keep in mind for later.

@rb: I asked you a question a while back, still waiting. Feeling a little bit ignored now. (272) Also, don't choke

And I still have open questions to Martha and Dierfire too, but they might not have seen them yet.

[Cass]

Martha Zolanski Expanded;
I first noticed this when looking for all the votes on the gameplay506 that Martha flip flopped more than a pendulum so they have voted for 3 different people over the game so far (24 hours ish) however they did so in a peroid of around 4-5 hours. ignoring the RVS then we still have them firstly sheeping rb with a post that literally added nothing pretty much joining the train to 'see what happened' and there posts havn't partially inputted. now this is early but given there 2 serious votes over 24 hours and joining the train with what I believe is the weakest reasoning they are who I believe to be most likely to be scum. however, it is still early day 1 and I understand that this may change later however, until then I believe that Its time to vote. this isn't to say that others should vote for her unless they also believe this.

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

Can someone please state that this is an acceptable vote? I already explained this, Naomi.

Yes, that is a bad vote by Naomi and is part of what made me put her on my scummy-players-list. Assuming scum to be on the early wagon is also dubious. It seems more likely that scum is still flying under the radar. And lots of voting is good, gives us something to analyse on later days.

[Cass]

Yes, that is a bad vote by Naomi and is part of what made me put her on my scummy-players-list. Assuming scum to be on the early wagon is also dubious. It seems more likely that scum is still flying under the radar. And lots of voting is good, gives us something to analyse on later days.

So you think the early wagon was all townies voting?

No. Or rather, I don't know. I think trying to narrow it down to that group is scummy, because it allows many other players to hide.

[Cass]

Ah, Dierfire is back and made some good posts, thanks Dierfire!

UNVOTE: Dierfire

This wagon has served its purpose, I think. But my vote shouldn't be idle, so:

VOTE: Martha Zolanski And here's why (bolding by me):

I'm not a fan of how Cass and Martha switched votes onto Dierfire in such quick succession. Hey, it kind of reminds me of how they were sheeping someone earlier. The transition from Gameplay => Dierfire was so seamless, wow.

Dierfire is at L-2 I think.

I didn't sheep. I have my own reasons and BASED on the people who suspected Dierfire, It was reasonable and

he clearly deserves to be lynched, imo.

Idk about Cass.

Why I changed my vote? Dierfire is in my top-4 and it is time for a wagon. L-2 doesn't bother me in this set-up. If scum want to hang themselves by quickhammering, that's a-ok by me. Gameplay had been defending himself for a while. I'm still ok with lynching him today, but it's early still. We're not yet seriously lynching anyone, just seriously voting.

@Dierfire: Oh, right, there are 13 players in this set-up. My bad. But why the vote for Golden? Do you feel there is scum on your wagon? Also, your number of posts is fine, but I would like it if they had more content. Maybe just a day 1 thing?

There's something wrong here..

Wdym about it is time for a wagon? Why do you want scums to quickhammer?

Yep, Gameplay is defending himself and you look agreeing with it, But still you want him lynched and you say it's early?

I don't see how Dierfire is scummier than RyanK right now.

Anybody around the thread right now?

Present.

I agree with this even though Dierfire is on my scum list.

So,
- Dierfire deserves to be lynched
- Yet I am suspicious for risking a quick hammer by scum
- Martha ignores my request to explain this fairlynunreasonable fear
- Ryan is even more scummy than Dierfire (who deserves to be lynched, so that's really scummy!), yet she keeps her vote on Dierfire - it's still on him btw... How about that scum quickhammer danger, Martha? Do you still feel Dierfire deserves to be lynched?

[Cass]

Right, is it bad that I now hope soneone else votes Martha, just to see if she will actually self-hammer?

Us posting close together means nothing to me, obviously, since I don't have daytalk :p It could be an attempt to buddy by her, but I don't even think so. She doesn't seem coordinated enough for such a tactic. In fact, I find her posts increasingly hard to follow. But I like this wagon, in fact wouldn't mind if it turned into a lynch - especially with a self- hammer! Go for it, Martha! Unless you are in fact town, then start scum- hunting instead.

And now she's saying l-2 isn't bad, because scum wouldn't quick hammer, in dirct contradiction with her earlier post (on a tablet, so sorry not going to look it up, but it's in my previous post where I vote her).

[Cass]

Why I changed my vote? Dierfire is in my top-4 and it is time for a wagon. L-2 doesn't bother me in this set-up. If scum want to hang themselves by quickhammering, that's a-ok by me. Gameplay had been defending himself for a while. I'm still ok with lynching him today, but it's early still. We're not yet seriously lynching anyone, just seriously voting.

@Dierfire: Oh, right, there are 13 players in this set-up. My bad. But why the vote for Golden? Do you feel there is scum on your wagon? Also, your number of posts is fine, but I would like it if they had more content. Maybe just a day 1 thing?

There's something wrong here..

Wdym about it is time for a wagon? Why do you want scums to quickhammer? Yep, Gameplay is defending himself and you look agreeing with it, But still you want him lynched and you say it's early?

That's how I read this. Interpreting l-2 as 'want him lynched' - but as I said, I find your posts hard to follow. Maybe this a mis-understanding?

[Cass]

@Martha: Yes, sure, I'd like scum to quickhammer. If we suddenly see two votes in quick succession and a lynch, how easy are day 2 and 3 gonna be?? Do you seriously think that would happen though? If you can convince me the risk is real and it would be bad, I'll take my vote off.
And we need wagons to keep the game from stagnating. Closer to deadline, priorities will shift.

And this my earlier response to that interaction, with the question you never answered.

[Cass]

I can't defend myself seeing scums aboarding my wagon train.

I don't understand what this means, rephrase

I can't defend myself because scums are joining my wagon.

But this can't be misunderstood, it is just wrong, so so wrong. In fact, the more scum on it, the easier it should be to defend yourself.

[Cass]

Right, is it bad that I now hope soneone else votes Martha, just to see if she will actually self-hammer?

Us posting close together means nothing to me, obviously, since I don't have daytalk :p It could be an attempt to buddy by her, but I don't even think so. She doesn't seem coordinated enough for such a tactic. In fact, I find her posts increasingly hard to follow. But I like this wagon, in fact wouldn't mind if it turned into a lynch - especially with a self- hammer! Go for it, Martha! Unless you are in fact town, then start scum- hunting instead.

And now she's saying l-2 isn't bad, because scum wouldn't quick hammer, in dirct contradiction with her earlier post (on a tablet, so sorry not going to look it up, but it's in my previous post where I vote her).

"obviously" you don't have daytalk?

If you aren't following their posts isn't that kind of a red flag? I feel like that was the case for me, there were so many other things that looked initially scummy like all the deflection re: voting ryan for example, I latched onto the one thing which I'm sure is town. I think the rest is just Martha being automatically flaily and semi-literate.

I ask why it's obvious that you don't have daytalk because that's obviously not the case.

And I've always had this theory that whenever someone says something like that (initially meant as in response to when people say "r u town??" "ofc lol"), it's because they're scum automatically parsing it to "are you claiming town?". And they're subconsciously like "yes, of course i am claiming town!", and then they leave the "of course" behind. But the only time I noticed it the person was actually town. But this seems like a more pure form (since it wasn't in response to a cliché question). So you're probably scum.

Yeah, that attack is so predictable and makes me see you as scummier. The daytalk thing is a weak thing for me to say, i know this. Because it is only obvious to me and everyone knows that - and I know everyone knows and that I will convince exactly zero people with such a claim, so it's NAI. Latching onto a thing like that is scummy. All it means is that I can't defend myself from a timing question, you do understand that, right? There's nothing useful to say against such an accusation. You can bring it back up if Martha or I ever flips scum.

Not liking Martha's soft claim, but it does sound more like bad town play than lying scum, so, with an annoyed sigh:
UNVOTE: Martha

Then this seems like a good lynch:
VOTE: RyanK
Attacking people for the weakest reasons, accusing them of nonsense and things they didn't say, voting in all the safe places without much in the way of reasoning and just not at all looking town.

[Cass]

...
VOTE: RyanK
Attacking people for the weakest reasons, accusing them of nonsense and things they didn't say, voting in all the safe places without much in the way of reasoning and just not at all looking town.

How can "accusing people of nonsense and things they didn't say" be a safe place to vote?
VOTE: Cass

EBWOP: VOTE: Cass for being illogical.

Thank you Ryan, for confirming all of my points with just five words! Impressive!

[Cass]

Martha and Ryan both... If town. Neither is helping town with their play.

[Cass]

But there never was a real threat of Martha dying. Especially if she is scum, unless you think her buddies were threatening to bus?? I think it's more likely that she is panicky because she has a pr (not fishing, she insinuated this herself) and really wants to live? Handling it badly though. Even so, I'd prefer a Ryan lynch today

[Cass]

Rereading Gameplay now, makes me feel he is town. Ryan not so much. Yes, he votes often and not carefully, but note it's never on serious wagons. In a way this way of playing only makes it seem like he is doing a lot, when really he is doing very, very little. He seems to interact with people, but really those interactions are extremely low on content and impact in all cases. On later day, we will have basically nothing to look back on from him. It's a tactic that would work out quite well for scum.

@Ryan: is there a tactic behind the way you play, or are you just lazy? Do you plan to keep up this style for the entire game?

@rb: Glitch posted so little- I agree that what you quote is a bit odd, but it's imo not enough to base a lynch on. Glitch sure needs to post more. Also, on reread I was struck again by your post 197 - I asked you about that, but think you still haven't answered?? (ISO me)

[Cass]

This game is like one of those tv-series that seem maybe intriguing but are full of plot-holes. In the sense that there are all these people going: "Wee I am acting crazy and/or scummy today. But tomorrow, that will all change, I will have an amazing explanation and everything will make sense! Honestly, just you wait!" Trying to survive by way of cliffhanger? Is that already a meme here?

But, I feel these are enough pages for day 1, yet I'm not nearly as sure of lynches as rb seems to be. Should do big analysis post, but not looking forward to that... Maybe if I have time tomorrow. But if the day ends in the meantime, that's also fine - I can hopefully do better analysis on day 2 anyways. And so I make my own lame cliffhanger!

[Cass]

Ryan townslipped

where?

I'm guessing they mean post 88 an 90. Though it sounds to me more like another symptom of Lazy!Ryan. I'm not at all convinced this proves anything beyond what we already know: Ryan doesn't like reading all that much.

[Cass]

No rb, I really don't think gameplay is scum, you two are just good at distracting eachother. Now, it seems Ryan is at L-2. Maybe we can lynch him, and at long last resolve all those exciting cliffhangers? I for one can't wait for day two.

My only paranoia is that the scum are all hiding in the people that are under my radar. That would be: Glitch, Saru, Pitoli, Golden, Chuck. Can there be three scum among those five? Because out of everyone else only Ryan pings my scumdar, logically it should be at least two/five there... hmmm....

[Cass]

My townreads (in no particular order) - as in, the people I won't lynch today:
- Dierfire
- rb
- Martha
- Gameplay
- Expedience

Mixed/unsure (after a quick look):
- Pitoli (active, yet under my radar, weird, I don't know why but seems slippery)
- Glitch (came in weak but seems to be improving)
- BBT (said nothing so far)

That leaves:
- Ryan (After Ryan's latest posts, I'd rather just ignore him. Or lynch him.)
- Chuck (could lynch him too, he hasn't caught up on the game so he's not really in it yet, but I don't like what he has posted so far)
- Golden (bad posting, scummy vibes, wouldn't mind that lynch actually)
- Saru (not many posts, but much higher quality than the above. Upon rereading, I lean town)

[Cass]

@rb right now, you are the one tunneling. And it's hurting town, man. You are doing what you accuse Game of doing, but much worse.

[Cass]

And do Ryan's hypothetical scumpartners let him continue playing like this all game even when there's daychat? He's a new player, he'd ask for advice right? His partners would attempt to assist him, right?

If he posts in daychat in the same style he does here, his partners have long given up on helping him. Or more likely, he never noticed/forgot that there is a link to a daychat in his role pm.

@Cass: thoughts on Martha as scum and Gameplay as town?

I'm pretty sure Martha is town, or at least I'm going by that assumpion for now. Gameplay as town is also my current read, so not sure what you mean here? I suppose it's referring to martha accusing you of being scum with Ryan and protecting him? Because I don't think so. I think even if you were Ryans partner (can't see it, but for the sake of the argument), you'd drop him like a hot rock. No, your refusal to vote Ryan strengthens my townread on you. In other words: you vs. gameplay vs. martha is an all-town battle imho.

Oh and forgot to point out: the odds of some person in their second game being able to pull off some god-tier reverse-psychology strat like people are suggesting is just hilarious to me. I need a tin-foil hat right about now.

That's definitely

not

what Ryan is doing. Ryan is feverish, lazy, insane, i just don't know... None of that means he is scum, as you say. None of it means he is town, either! What makes him sum is that all these weak attempts at attacking people feel fake as fuck. He is not misguided, amateur, whatever. he simply has no real

intention

to help town. What he is doing imo is newbishly

pretend

to be imcompetent but trying. Doesn't take any kind of genius, it's just a way to active lurk.

[Cass]

Ok, I'll try this sheeping thing... see what happens

UNVOTE: Comparing realities
VOTE: Gameplay506

Really a serious vote though, gameplays responses so far seem seriously off. And to my own surprise, I'm starting to like rb's style a lot more.

I know you no longer scumread gameplay, but which of the responses were you referring to?

Please respond to this, Cass.

Look, Ryan, I have explained this before so please just read the game. ISO me or w/e. Also, this is like 1 post out of the RVS, shouldn't you have other priorities by now?

[Cass]

I think rn means 'right now'? It does not help make the posts more readable...

Glad to see you are reading more, Ryan. If that leads to more questions for me, I'll be happy to answer.

[Cass]

I iso-ed expedience and I see what you mean. What I found interesting too is how he defends Ryan all day long, like half of his post are defenses for Ryan. It's weird. Makes me want to lynch Ryan more, just to see what he flips.
And Martha: Expedience starts attacking Martha, but then decides she is completely town and defends her a lot too.
Then he goes after me, but denies my association with Martha - protecting Martha again.
Eventually he goes to Glitch, wich comes off as opportunistic, since glitch is one of rb's pushed for lynches.

Oh, and my own 'town-read' of Martha is based primarily on her soft claim and my benefit of the doubt, to see what she's gonna tell us tomorrow.

I could support an expedience lynch today. Seems better than gameplay or glitch, and about equal to Ryan.

[Cass]

Oh, and my own 'town-read' of Martha is based primarily on her soft claim and my benefit of the doubt, to see what she's gonna tell us tomorrow.

How are soft claims indicative of alignment? Do you know how easy it is to fake a softclaim on D1, especially when scum probably has more knowledge than town about the setup + doesn't have to be specific about the role?

True, it's NAI now, I just prefer to wait another day to decide whether it's town or scum, becase either she's dead and confirmed tomorrow, or she'll give us some information and we can decide based on that.

[Cass]

...
Scum could replicate it, sure, but it'd take serious balls. Maybe that is happening - I haven't played with rb before, so I don't know if he would - but we have plenty of time yet to find out.

So far, I like this wagon I'm on.

Why do you like it?

*sigh* That was the first wagon, the one rb started on gameplay and I jumped on it happily. It got the game moving, gameplay was posting a lot, everything was going well. Day 1 needs wagons, don't you agree?

[Cass]

I also still like the wagon I'n on now.

[Cass]

@Game, I'd say you can read me quite well, since I'm not sure what i'm doing either. How about we lynch Ryan, and see if that and the night clears some things up? Because I can't make much sense of this game as it is.

I do think rb's defending of Ryan is getting a bit weird. Like he has to be some insane genius to play like this as scum, wtf? How is this style any harder for scum to pull off than as town? But he ignores me when i question him about it - in fact, rb ignores all my questions. What's up?

[Cass]

Just to make it really clear: Ryan is playing BAD.

Playing bad doesn't make someone scum.

No, but neither does it take any kind of genius to play bad as scum (as compared to doing it as town. And why do you keep ignoring me?

Also, gameplay calls you dumb and such because you are arguing with him and tunneling him aggressively. You two are creating that atmosphere and it's harming town. Please take a step back and see if he's also scum if you ignore the interactions between you two. Mind you, I'm not saying he isn't, I just really hate the way you are attacking him and it makes me want to defend him - or at least fight the wagon, possibly for the wrong reasons.

[Cass]

What do you hate about the way I'm attacking him?
Why do you think I'm tunneling when I've given reads and interacted with basically every slot in the game?
How am I ignoring you?

You call him obvscum in almost all your posts, you wan't consider lynching anyone but him or maybe glitch, when he reacts with anger you read it as more scumtells, in fact you read everything he does now as scumtells because you are so sure. That's tunneling. Perhaps best if you two stop talking to each other for a while, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything either way.

About ignoring me:

And a question for rb: Why did you take your vote off gameplay at that point? Did you think there was a real chance that scum would quickhammer? Because if they had, wouldn't that have been really helpful to town?

Note: this is about that first wagon, and rb unvoting when Gameplay is at L-2.

@rb: btw, I asked you a question about that, in post 272. Still curious.

@rb: I asked you a question a while back, still waiting. Feeling a little bit ignored now. (272) Also, don't choke

It was around now (your 391) that you actually asked people for questions, and to use @rb so you'd see, which made me feel weird about the above posts going ignored...

@rb: Glitch posted so little- I agree that what you quote is a bit odd, but it's imo not enough to base a lynch on. Glitch sure needs to post more. Also, on reread I was struck again by your post 197 - I asked you about that, but think you still haven't answered?? (ISO me)

So, this last one wasn't framed as a question, but I'd still like your response, because your defense of Ryan is so over the top, it reads very weird to me:

And do Ryan's hypothetical scumpartners let him continue playing like this all game even when there's daychat? He's a new player, he'd ask for advice right? His partners would attempt to assist him, right?

If he posts in daychat in the same style he does here, his partners have long given up on helping him. Or more likely, he never noticed/forgot that there is a link to a daychat in his role pm.

Oh and forgot to point out: the odds of some person in their second game being able to pull off some god-tier reverse-psychology strat like people are suggesting is just hilarious to me. I need a tin-foil hat right about now.

That's definitely

not

what Ryan is doing. Ryan is feverish, lazy, insane, i just don't know... None of that means he is scum, as you say. None of it means he is town, either! What makes him sum is that all these weak attempts at attacking people feel fake as fuck. He is not misguided, amateur, whatever. he simply has no real

intention

to help town. What he is doing imo is newbishly

pretend

to be imcompetent but trying. Doesn't take any kind of genius, it's just a way to active lurk.

[Cass]

Just to make it really clear: Ryan is playing BAD.

Playing bad doesn't make someone scum.

No, but neither does it take any kind of genius to play bad as scum (as compared to doing it as town. And why do you keep ignoring me?

This feels like scum who thinks Ryan is being cleared too easily.

Ryan is not being cleared because he's "playing bad", which he isn't.

I don't understand what you're saying. Ryan isn't bad? Ryan isn't being cleared? And are you saying I feel like scum because I think he being cleared 'too easily'?

Also, gameplay calls you dumb and such because you are arguing with him and tunneling him aggressively. You two are creating that atmosphere and it's harming town. Please take a step back and see if he's also scum if you ignore the interactions between you two. Mind you, I'm not saying he isn't, I just really hate the way you are attacking him and it makes me want to defend him - or at least fight the wagon, possibly for the wrong reasons.

Do you think gameplay and rb are both town?

Yes, I do. I think it's TvT(vT if you count Martha).

I want to quote all the times people have used the words "odd", "weird", "interesting", it's a legit scumtell that stood out to me from glitch and 1085.

So do it, I know I'll be in it a lot. (And now adding one more to it: ) But answer me first - don't you think it's odd/weird/whatever that rb feels Ryan being scum would require 'god-tier' levels of skill?

I've never understood why players get so insistent about answering questions, I usually just leave it unless I really want to know.
Glitch, can you claim? Game's going in circles.

Why should Glitch claim now? He's at what, three votes? Maybe first convince a few more people that he's scum before you start role-fishing?? You just earned a vote.

About the questions: well, read my post to rb and you see why I was getting slightly annoyed. I'm not normally that insisten, but if someone explicitly asks for questions and then not answers them, I get triggered. Pretty sure I have more open questions to others, but I can't be bothered to look now.
UNVOTE: Ryan
VOTE: Expedience

[Cass]

I think that both the Ryan and Expedience wagons are bad.

I think that both the Ryan and Expedience wagons are good.

This game is beginning to feel like a stalemate. Here's hoping for quick replacements by people with something useful to say.

[Cass]

Ebwop: sorry, mixed up two games, there are no replacements happening here, even if it feels like there should be. Change that to: hoping for more activity very soon by the quiet players. Give us something to get this game rolling again.

[Cass]

Giving note that my internet connection is being dysfunctional. I hope it gets fixed soon, but if I seem to disappear, that's why.

[Cass]

I haven't read from page 14 or so onwards but I have a question; has Cass taken a single stance that wasn't already backed by the majority of the player-base - because my gut bets she hasn't.

Anyone?

Can I defend myself? You only read early game. I like to join wagons for pressure in early game, because it gets things moving and creates interesting patterns and reads. Logically, that means joining 'majorities', not really majorities obviously... That would be lynching. But blocks, others sheeping vocal players, semi- decent cases... Anyhing goes in that phase of the game. Why is that scummy? I'm not hiding, I'm not quick-lynching, I give you patterns to analyze. Also, it's far from the majority of players doing that, most are waiting or staying quiet.
Now ISO the mod, look at the voting patterns over the entire game and see if your impression of me remains the same.

[Cass]

@Mod:

Should golden009 and glitch get prodded?

@Mod: Seconding this, it's been three days for both of them and Glitch is at L-1. Please prod.

I'd really hate for Glitch to get killed without a chance to claim. Seriously. Nobody hammer.

[Cass]

VC 1.13

Dierfire (5)

: Saru, golden009, rb, Cass, Martha Zolanski

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

Want these in my ISO so I remember to look over them.

That was a quick transition.

Yes, that is an interesting part. We were on Dierfire, then he made a decent post, then I made a case on martha (489), Pitoli & Golden vaguely sheeped me but without voting. Martha defends against my case and her and me get into a fight that's mostly misunderstandings and language-issues, I think (it's pretty unreadable, I apologize for my part in that). Then Pitoli (497) notes that Martha's and my posts 'synch up', and we could be following eachother onto wagons. (Note when ISO-ing: Martha here increases the confusion by posting a few times with and ALT account, keyenpeydee.)
Now Pitoli votes Martha, and Martha votes Ryan. Rb likes Dierfire's post and joins the Martha wagon, starts pushing it, as does Pitoli. Now Expedience (replaced Naomi) joins the wagon, but still thinks Dierfire is scum too. (

509 - This one reinforces my scumread on Expedience.

) Rb feels the wagon is going too fast now, too easy (

I can see what he means...

) and unvotes Martha (also calls Saru, Pitoli and Golden town). Expedience attacks Martha and defends Ryan. Based on this - I think because he's somehow reassured that Expedience is town (

unlike me

) -, rb revotes Martha(523.
(

Off topic: Post 528 makes me wonder if I could be wrong about gameplay; could he be Expedience's partner?

)
Now Martha says she can't defend herself because there are 'scums' on her wagon (wagon is now (4): Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb). Martha starts to panic, suggests self-hammering, calls her own wagon good, etc. Now Ryan joins the wagon (

can't blame him, really

), making it L-2.

We are now at 550 (the second vote-count). What happens right after this is also interesting. The wagon weakens, as Ryan and Expedience back off. (

Omg, expedience looks so scummy doing that.

)
Then in 578 with just 3 votes on her, Martha soft-claims (maybe explaining the earlier panic?). After that, almost everyone (including me) backs off.

[Cass]

Here are my thoughts, in case this day ends soon.
- I read back on Glitch and Expedience. I can't believe both are scum, because of their interactions. So far I have been leaning Expedience, which would by PoE make Glitch town. However, by rereading I realized Glitch has been flattering me from the start with strong townreads, while Expedience has been attacking me. This may cloud my judgment.
- I see Glitch trying to get Martha killed, assuming Martha is indeed a town PR (and if he's scum, he'd pretty much know) these attempt look very scummy indeed.

Hence I hereby express willingness to hammer, though I'll wait 48 hours or so to give Glitch a chance to claim.

Now, if Glitch flips scum, I feel we should look at BBT next, there is a connection there (but that's for day 2). Unlikely partners: Chuck, Expedience, Martha, rb, Dierfire. If Glitch flips scum, these are all very likely town. Gameplay or Ryan could also be scum with Glitch. Golden, Saru and Pitoli are big question marks.

[Cass]

Here are my thoughts, in case this day ends soon.
- I read back on Glitch and Expedience. I can't believe both are scum, because of their interactions. So far I have been leaning Expedience, which would by PoE make Glitch town. However, by rereading I realized Glitch has been flattering me from the start with strong townreads, while Expedience has been attacking me. This may cloud my judgment.
- I see Glitch trying to get Martha killed, assuming Martha is indeed a town PR (and if he's scum, he'd pretty much know) these attempt look very scummy indeed.

Hence I hereby express willingness to hammer, though I'll wait 48 hours or so to give Glitch a chance to claim.

Now, if Glitch flips scum, I feel we should look at BBT next, there is a connection there (but that's for day 2). Unlikely partners: Chuck, Expedience, Martha, rb, Dierfire. If Glitch flips scum, these are all very likely town. Gameplay or Ryan could also be scum with Glitch. Golden, Saru and Pitoli are big question marks.

How sure are you that Glitch is scum?

This is a horrible post. I don't buy your position at all, you went from me being scum to "glitch confscum intent to hammer lets find partners" in 0.1 seconds. I think you're scum especially with Glitch.

If you were town I think you would've been less sure on Glitch because you were already scumreading me pretty hard.

I would rather lynch you than Glitch for fear that this is scum opportunism and I'm not 100% confident on Glitch being scum at times.

But I didn't say that because it would fuck the momentum that took so long to form.

Nice attempt to misrep me. There is no confscum, exactly because both you and Glitch are soo scummy, yet I don't see you as possible partners. I was talking about what would happen if he flips scum.

There's a reason my vote is still on you. But since the Glitch lynch is happening, my question was: would I be willing to hammer this, or am I going to opose it? The rest of the post is mostly a note to self, in case I come back and it's already night.

[Cass]

BBT just put Glitch at L-1.

I think that's a dumb move if he's scum with Glitch, given how wagon-happy everyone in this game seems to be. BBT isn't dumb. If Glitch flips scum, BBT is conftown.

WHy? It's almost deadline, Glitch looks in pretty bad shape, BBT badly needs towncred. Bussing is a very likely scenario here. But let's wait for a flip before digging too deep into this. If it's still relevant, I'll make a detailed analysis on day 2.

[Cass]

@Cass, what's your read on Ryan, Martha and Expedience?

Town or scum, pretend a gun is to your head and you have to pick. No nulls.

Thought I answered that one already - dunno what happened.

So, Gun on head:
- Ryan: scum
- Martha: town
- Expedience: scum

(This based only on today. I reserve the right to completely change this depending on flips and what happens during the night. The Ryan one is really not that sure, the Martha one is pretty confident, the expedience one is 50/50, with Glitch on the other side.)

[Cass]

Cass, talk to me about how I am scum with Glitch.

I promise I will - providing we both survive - on day 2. (I think it's time for a cliffhanger, no?)

[Cass]

Cass, why are you town reading Martha so strongly?

Answered this one before. It's because of the soft-claim, she has benefit of the doubt for the day.

[Cass]

Ok, read Glitch' defense and claim. Still willing to hammer; I can wait 12 hours (tomorrow morning for me) if someone prefers that.

@pitoli: he already claimed vt, didn't you read?? FoS: Pitoli

[Cass]

Read my damn post Martha. I said regardless of what role I am it only makes sense to claim VT. If I were a PR it makes no sense unless it's a last ditch effort to save myself but that screws me anyway cause I would be NK'd. VT just claims VT. Scum just claims VT cause it's safe.

I am not a PR.
I am not scum.
I am VT.

My point in saying all that in my former post was to try and understand why there is value in me claiming if everyone thinks I'm scum already.

Wrong, Glitch, if you are a town PR, you tell the truth at this point. Or maybe part of it, if that serves some purpose, but enough to show that you have value to the town. That is, if you value the town...

You don't know that you will nightkilled, because we don't yet know what roles are in this set- up. You might have convincingly claimed cop, and then maybe a doc would have saved you, or who knows what could have happened. Either way, it would be something more helpful than town lynching you on wrong assumptions. But for now I have to assume you are not a town PR. (You might be scum PR, who can't think of a credible claim here.)

[Cass]

Yes, that was the predictable NK. Too bad she was the doc and not something the doc could have protected. And rather sad she panicked like that and soft-claimed, as a doc of all things. Sigh.

I don't think Ryan is the best starting point for today, we went over him a lot last day and it doesn't look urgent now. BBT should have finally read up by now, so I want to hear his thoughts. I read him as possibly linked to Glitch, but Glitch flipped vt. I want tohear Expedience talk about last day, what was he thinking? And what is he thinking now.

[Cass]

So Game, if you had you way, who would we lynch today?

And @rb: can you now elaborate on why you said you'd be killed N1? Also, now that Glitch has flipped VT, did any of your other reads change?

@Chuck: why does RyanK look that terrible now? Do you mean worse than yesterday, and if so, why?

[Cass]

Yes, that was the predictable NK. Too bad she was the doc and not something the doc could have protected. And rather sad she panicked like that and soft-claimed, as a doc of all things. Sigh.

I don't think Ryan is the best starting point for today, we went over him a lot last day and it doesn't look urgent now. BBT should have finally read up by now, so I want to hear his thoughts. I read him as possibly linked to Glitch, but Glitch flipped vt. I want tohear Expedience talk about last day, what was he thinking? And what is he thinking now.

I'll answer specific questions.

Where did Martha softclaim doctor?

My question refers to the Claim Duel business. Why did you do that?? And how do you feel about it after the flip? People are calling you more town over it, but I'm mostly just confused by it.

Martha softclaims in 578, for summary of the context read my 1280. She didn't softclaim doctor, just PR. I also really didn't think she'd be a doctor because that makes her behaviour there frankly even more insane. (One could even say anti-town, but I'll be generous and call it panick.) (Hence my sigh.)

[Cass]

Quick notes, gtg now:
- Expedience & BBT seem fairly town for now, reads improving.

Looked back on D1 wagons:
- Pitoli has the most suspicious voting pattern from my pov - note to self to ISO him.
- Golden had his vote in the same place for very long, but has been gone for almost that whole time. Over 8 days in fact. Very annoying, but need to wait for replacement...
- Chuck voted only ONCE this entire game! He put his vote on Naomi for her scummy entry and excuses - this was his second post-, then never ever voted again. Ended the day with his vote still on Expedience. Pressure on Chuck is good.

VOTE: Chuck

[Cass]

BBT - wtf, you accuse people of spamming this game, which I agree with, but then proceed to do the same yourself and so make it even worse. Agree with Gameplay about the rb point, it's nonsense.

[Cass]

VOTE: Golden

Is this because of inactivity? Or do you think he is scum?

I think he might be, but it's near impossible to tell this way. Still, he isn't the worst lynch for today.

Unsure about the Chuck vs. Expedience thing. These kind of exchanges tend to be in my experience between townies (similar to rb vs. Gameplay), so it makes me townread both of them more (making me wary of 'claimduels') - and BBT too, because he has the same response to it.

UNVOTE: Chuck

Saru is defending rb and Chuck (means nothing now, but noted for later). His lynch pool is Ryan, Golden, Dier - this looks very opportunistic and kinda lazy. Lynch the lurkers that aren't around to defend themselves. Very safe.

VOTE: Saru

[Cass]

That big post Chuck makes on BBT is not so great. Trying to be sensational, but the actual arguments there are reaching. The thing about Pitoli is lazy, but not scummy. He doesn't imply that he'll survive the night - and it's a reasonable assumption anyway. The refusal to vote expedience actually reads very town to me. I have the same stance btw - the exp vs. Chuck is TvT - does it make me scummy too? Wouldn't scum be rather more eager to fuel such a fire?
And I don't see the relevance of Martha's suspicion of Pitoli. Unless you're suggesting Pitoli is scum and would have NKed her over that? Seems not likely, any scum would have NKed Martha, and she had no special knowledge so her opinions don't have any special meaning.

[Cass]

@Cass

@pitoli: he already claimed vt, didn't you read?? FoS: Pitoli

Why did this make you so suspicious of pitoli?

Because he said this:
[quote = Pitoli]INTENT TO HAMMER. Claim, Glitch?[/quote] without even bothering to read up and check if there had been a claim or a hammer already. (He replied with 'lol forgot to refresh'. This is hard to believe, because the post right above his was Martha repeatedly using the word VT and asking him for reads before he's get lynched.) Made him sound like scum eager and happy to hammer a townie.

[quote = Chuck]rb and Cass, what's your opinion of BBT's naked vote on me after Expedience tried to build a wagon on me?[/quote] Naked votes (and unvotes) are a thing he does, and he had you in his scumlist before that, doesn't look scummy to me.
And return question @Chuck: How has rb shown you he is town? And related @BBT: How are you so sure that rb is scum?


My current reads (in no particular order):
Town, I think: Ryan, Expedience, Saru, BBT
Possible scum: rb, Chuck, Dierfire, Gameplay, pitoli, golden,

Golden isn't a terrible lynch. Saru vs. rb looks like yet another TvT - but I'm becoming more hesitant, there also have to be three scum hidden somewhere. It makes me feel that Golden (the deadly quiet) may be one of them. Or that Chuck is scum after all. Or one of rb and pitoli, who both have those suspicious voting patterns day 1. Ack, I just don't know.

But since I don't see this getting any clearer - how about we just lynch the Golden slot (looks like a majority scumreads him) and work with more information - and probably 1 less scum - next day?
UNVOTE: Saru
VOTE: Golden (Yes, yes, feel free to start voting me for 'joining a majority'... a wagon on me could be quite interesting in fact.)

[Cass]

Also this website makes a point of including pronouns, please fucking use mine Cass mmk

Sorry Pitoli - I mean no offense and will try to pay more attention.

(I get called 'he' about 50% of the time here and it has lead to me ignoring / randomizing pronouns in general. Maybe I should just default to she? To balance things out? )

[Cass]

K, rb, I don't get you - but whatever your logic may be, you are wrong about me.

How about this compromise: We lynch Golden today, and you wagon me next day? At that point we may be able to 'conf' a thing or two. And base decisions on things we

can

talk about.

[Cass]

K, rb, I don't get you - but whatever your logic may be, you are wrong about me.

How about this compromise: We lynch Golden today, and you wagon me next day? At that point we may be able to 'conf' a thing or two. And base decisions on things we

can

talk about.

Why would you want to be lynched?

You've never suggested this idea until now, and if you think it would benefit us why not just vote yourself now?

I don't want to be lynched, it would not benefit town and I promise you I'll never vote myself. But I would not be a bad wagon tomorrow, it'd be interesting. I want to see rb make a case on me, for one. And preferably it wouldn't get as far as lynching me It would at the very least give rb some things to say about me that he

can

talk about, because that post of his really irritates me.

I'd like to hear from Ryan, Chuck and Gameplay (and Golden's replacement, though not sure there will be one...)

[Cass]

Ah, a replace after all. Welcome Mathblade

The VT claim sounds legit, Math doesn't look like the best lynch anymore, so:

UNVOTE: Mathblade
And my vote goes to:
VOTE: Expedience
Mostly for post 1639. Chuck is definitely scum, Mathblade/Golden is meh, but your vote stays on the big wagon - yeah right.