Mini 1836: Space Mafia (Game Over)

[Xkfyu]

VOTE: TwoFace

Mine flipped tails.

[Xkfyu]

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

[Xkfyu]

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

so why is your vote serious?

I think your "coin flip" was fake.

[Xkfyu]

well it wasn't, but even if it was that would make you want to seriously vote me?

if you are town

I would seriously vote you for far less reasons.

[Xkfyu]

so you are scum or a bad player. noted so I can basically ignore anything you say going forward.

There's also one other possibility......

[Xkfyu]

@Grapes: I imagine most people base their non-random votes on their reads and their own role. Basically, I think it depends on what information they have, or think they have, and what they are trying to achieve.

For example, you seem to have non-randomly voted me after I asked if RVS was over.

Maybe you did that because town!you read that as a suspicious question from newbscum, and wanted to pressure me to get more hypothetical damming evidence.

Also, if, hypothetically, you were scum, you could have read that as a lost newbtown, easy lynch bait, and pressure me to get me myslynched.

There could have been other reasons, that I'm not aware of yet, of why you did it.

I don't have a strong opinion on which is more likely at this point. That's why I'm reading you as null, same as pretty much everyone else so far, and not non-randomly voting yet.

I hope that answers your question.

I thought you said you were new.

[Xkfyu]

You guys are silly.

[Xkfyu]

Wow you jumped right into the LAMIST stuff huh?

[Xkfyu]

Well I normally like to do this post before the game gets rolling but we appear to already be rolling. So I'll do it here;

Okay.. so.. Hi everyone I'm naomi. for those who have played with me before you'll sorta know whats coming so you can skip this; for others. Hi, I'm kinda a strange town player. As both Red and Blue I'm afraid of dying and this influences my posts making them sometimes be more scummy. to counter act this I tend to play very open handed and honestly (unless i'm using PR information or trying to trap scum in which case I come clean as soon as I have the chance) I also like to make read lists every now and then and comment often during the day (staying active) not all my posts will have good content but .. Thats more me being a not strong player :3 This kinda Post I tend to do at the front of my games so.. count this post as an ENTIRE post of NAI but I feel that its important to say so town don't go out there way to lynch me for my normal town play style. If you guys wish you may review my entire history on my wiki page which I update when games close out. Finally I also do LAMIST stuff as I don't wanna die, so if I go around doing that. its normal :3 so with all this said I'm now ready to start properly

Tldr

Translation:

"All those scummy things that people do, and that you'll end up scum reading me for in the future (including this post), I totally do those things all the time, and it's totally NAI, so when I do them, think nothing of it."

[Xkfyu]

VOTE: grapes

Ain't no grapes in space.

http://winefolly.com/update/iss-reveals ... ter-space/
Not yet, anyways.

[Xkfyu]

VOTE: grapes

Ain't no grapes in space.

http://winefolly.com/update/iss-reveals ... ter-space/
Not yet, anyways.

That's untrue actually

Now you're just taking it too far.

[Xkfyu]

What's not a word?

"Amiacable," which is clearly supposed to be "amicable."

[Xkfyu]

Grapes, actually.

[Xkfyu]

Also I see we're choosing to ignore massive choosing to ignore the whole thread

I'm actually ok with that.

[Xkfyu]

It was pretty awesome lol.

[Xkfyu]

I think I like it better when I thought you were ignoring the thread though.

[Xkfyu]

liked*

[Xkfyu]

i'm going to learn hard town on toto right now.

Why?

@grapes - because he's painfully obvious town. His actions look genuine to me. His response that he was accused of being coached look genuine.

@dunn - mainly for post 114 (but tbh none of your posts make me get a town vibe). No way town makes that post. It's obvious he was sharing his thoughts and even VI's (which I didn't get the impression he was) and n00bs (which he probably is) are perfectly capable of doing. He's an easy target for scum to go after. Then I saw the very next post and that screams scum. Who freaking cares if massive dropped an Rvs vote and didn't comment on anything else. It's not AI at all. You then accuse him of ignoring the game which you don't even know it's true(which he later confirms isn't).

It's basically seems like you are trying too hard and being very manipulative

Full disclosure here. All the stuff I said earlier about my vote on you being serious, none of that was serious. Well, it was serious, I just wasn't seriously scum reading you.

NOW, however, I am, and my vote will remain on you.

[Xkfyu]

@Toto I asked if you had any questions for me. Did you ignore me or do you not have any?

I believe ignoring you, or not having any questions, are not the only two options here. Again, I find the way you ask questions a bit misleading.

I did not ignore you, since had not read your post.
I also didn't think of anything to ask you yet, or at least how to ask it.

But since you are asking me this now. What do you think I should be asking you?

this sounds robotic XD

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Xkfyu]

It's not that I think that people should always care why they're being voted/scumread.

This disconnect is that there are things a town!toto should be wondering about.

I wanna know why he's not wondering.

I think TwoFace is scum, but I still agree with him.

I rarely care why people are voting me.

[Xkfyu]

does anyone have any reads right now?

I'm scum reading TwoFace and leaning slight scum on you.

[Xkfyu]

How so?

Went from looking like a vi to knowing exactly what they're talking about

The way they talked was different along with what they were saying

This is the post Twoface says "no town would make"

Which is weird, because I'm town and it's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

[Xkfyu]

Scum will eventually slip (logically) because they have no choice.

You're new to Mafia, and that's cool and all, but this statement isn't actually accurate.

[Xkfyu]

Why not let me keep my vote there for a while and then call me out for it instead of stopping me from doing the scummy thing?

Are you asking me why I tried to stop an action I found scummy right away? I feel like that answers it in itself

Alos I did it to make toto not feel pressuered by your vote so he could read normally and not feel rushed some people don't feel that way with votes but I don't know who that is.

Sorry to but into this, but I actually agree with both of you, so I'm unbiased here.

When I read pip's post about toto's reads, I had essentially the same thoughts as you. The difference is that I took my thoughts a step further and realized why pip did it the way he did.

If pip is town, knowing that toto is a newer player, some unwarranted aggression, seemingly out of the blue, might throw a scum toto off guard in a way that simply asking toto for reads wouldn't have.

[Xkfyu]

butt*

[Xkfyu]

Wait what am I reading

Alos I did it to make toto not feel pressuered by your vote so he could read normally and not feel rushed some people don't feel that way with votes but I don't know who that is.

I'm not sure what that means, but since he is defending me I feel emotionally inclined to townread him a little bit.

Scum will eventually slip (logically) because they have no choice. But it is too early in the game for that to work, and I think the strategy is more likely to get us a mislynch at this stage of the game. That is something scum would benefit from so I guess I should read her a bit scummy.

I don't follow.

[Xkfyu]

NOW, however, I am, and my vote will remain on you.

ok?

why did you feel the need to make that statement? it served no purpose really.

Sure it did.

Now you know that my vote on you is for real serious, and no longer part of some reaction test.

[Xkfyu]

Don't.

[Xkfyu]

Just don't.

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: TwoFace

VOTE: Naomi-Tan

[Xkfyu]

I love Psychology-based reasoning.

[Xkfyu]

Wait what am I reading

Alos I did it to make toto not feel pressuered by your vote so he could read normally and not feel rushed some people don't feel that way with votes but I don't know who that is.

I'm not sure what that means, but since he is defending me I feel emotionally inclined to townread him a little bit.

Scum will eventually slip (logically) because they have no choice. But it is too early in the game for that to work, and I think the strategy is more likely to get us a mislynch at this stage of the game. That is something scum would benefit from so I guess I should read her a bit scummy.

I don't follow.

They're all dumb things to have said

Maria is trying to make sure toto doesn't feel pressured
Toto is emotionally inclined to townread someone who defended them
Toto thinks scum "eventually slip (logically)" in every game

Ok, I guess I do follow.

Is there a conclusion though, other than "these are dumb?"

[Xkfyu]

You're turning a post that was about telling pip to back off toto and let him get reads at his own pace into: Maria just made that post for toto to townread her.

I think you misunderstand.

Toto is emotionally inclined to townread someone who defended them

The "someone" here is not referring to you.

[Xkfyu]

I understand pressure can be a good tactic on some things but using your vote to get someone to out reads quickly (and possibly fake ones just to get a vote off them) is

always

a good way of doing it.

Fixed

[Xkfyu]

Maria, the problem is that you are assuming Toto is town.

[Xkfyu]

You do realize that pip (and he can surely correct me if I'm wrong) was probably quite uninterested in toto's actual reads.

[Xkfyu]

Maria, the problem is that you are assuming Toto is town.

Fair point.
Do you see how the event I just laid out can happen though?

Absolutely. it happens like every game, except for the Person B getting lynched part. Being wrong is not scummy, and people are very rarely lynched solely because they started a wagon on town that ended up in a mislynch.

Here's the thing though. What pip did is essentially Scum Hunting 101.

1. Apply pressure to someone.
2. Gauge their (and everyone else's) reaction to it.
3. Draw conclusions from said reactions.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until game is solved.

The onus is on Toto to respond properly, regardless of his alignment, to avoid being scum read.

[Xkfyu]

Maria, the problem is that you are assuming Toto is town.

Fair point.
Do you see how the event I just laid out can happen though?

Why couldn't they just say they didn't have strong reads?

You're assuming so much here

the way the post was presented I don't think pip would of taken that for an answer.
I'm assuming a ton yeah but better safe then sorry.

Why was chainsawing the "safe" option here?

[Xkfyu]

Maria, the problem is that you are assuming Toto is town.

Fair point.
Do you see how the event I just laid out can happen though?

Why couldn't they just say they didn't have strong reads?

You're assuming so much here

the way the post was presented I don't think pip would of taken that for an answer.
I'm assuming a ton yeah but better safe then sorry.

Why was chainsawing the "safe" option here?

Er? How am I chainsawing

When you jumped all over pip for pressuring toto, that was a chainsaw defense.

Why was that the "safe" option?

[Xkfyu]

I jumped on pip for that god awful pressure that I explained already I'm saying the "safe" part was stopping him instead of letting him keep going

I know. Why was that the safe option?

More specifically, why are you still assuming that Toto is town?

[Xkfyu]

I jumped on pip for that god awful pressure that I explained already I'm saying the "safe" part was stopping him instead of letting him keep going

I know. Why was that the safe option?

More specifically, why are you still assuming that Toto is town?

The not safe option was to let pip keep going.

I don't think it was me assuming toto is town more so as it was me wanting to stop something I found scummy by pip at the time.

So, even if Toto is scum, you still didn't want pip pressuring him?

[Xkfyu]

@Mod: I'll be V/LA until Monday morning (EST).

[Xkfyu]

What pip did was scummy and warranted votes.

Even a "bad" player such as me knows that that is false.

[Xkfyu]

In post 214, Xkfyu wrote:
I love Psychology-based reasoning.

except its not psychology based. It's "you used this colour that you wouldn't have used if you actually had". As a colourblind person, blue and green are pretty fucking distinguishable, but there are a million and a half things she could have unconsciously chosen to associate town and blue. She could've been out in the city the last night and seen a blue canary, she could really like the colour blue, she could've had a blue role pm the game previous. It's a pretty null argument.

she's like totally scum tho so keep that vote up.

What massive actually said about why she chose blue instead of green was completely psychological. Every reason you gave for reasons why she would have unconsciously chosen to use blue are also psychological.

Massive's psychological reason could be right, which would make her scum. Your psychological reasons could be right, which would make it all NAI.

Either way, we both agree that, even ignoring all the green vs blue stuff, she is scum.

[Xkfyu]

X, why are you voting Naomi?

Well I normally like to do this post before the game gets rolling but we appear to already be rolling. So I'll do it here;

Okay.. so.. Hi everyone I'm naomi. for those who have played with me before you'll sorta know whats coming so you can skip this; for others. Hi, I'm kinda a strange town player. As both Red and Blue I'm afraid of dying and this influences my posts making them sometimes be more scummy. to counter act this I tend to play very open handed and honestly (unless i'm using PR information or trying to trap scum in which case I come clean as soon as I have the chance) I also like to make read lists every now and then and comment often during the day (staying active) not all my posts will have good content but .. Thats more me being a not strong player :3 This kinda Post I tend to do at the front of my games so.. count this post as an ENTIRE post of NAI but I feel that its important to say so town don't go out there way to lynch me for my normal town play style. If you guys wish you may review my entire history on my wiki page which I update when games close out. Finally I also do LAMIST stuff as I don't wanna die, so if I go around doing that. its normal :3 so with all this said I'm now ready to start properly

Tldr

Translation:

"All those scummy things that people do, and that you'll end up scum reading me for in the future (including this post), I totally do those things all the time, and it's totally NAI, so when I do them, think nothing of it."

She is pretty much doing exactly what she said she was going to do. However, I naturally scum read all those things, and her post above, warning us that she will do them, doesn't make me feel any better about it, as I also hate self-meta.

I do worry that she's town, and that she's just one of those types of players that I have a hard time town reading though.

[Xkfyu]

Xyfu why are you voting them if you know you wouldn't be able to townread them?

Doesn't mean they aren't scum.

[Xkfyu]

How am I not gonna be any help for town? So you'd rather lynch someone that will get no clues as to who is town or maf rather than lynching a potentially scummy person? That doesn't seem like a town mindset.

Yes. If you are town, you will be a liability for the rest of the town if we let you live to endgame. "Town mindset" isn't JUST about finding scum, it's also about making sure you can convince others to lynch them once you find them, and so far you're not doing any of either.

I'll actually agree with this. From what I can tell Gerry is more often a liability to town instead of helpful. The vote on you this game is actually a good example. There was no good reason for it at all.

LMAO. YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED WITH ME. WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT.

Maybe not, but I have. And it's not bullshit.

[Xkfyu]

so attempting to catch up, basically treat me like a replacement because I really haven't paid much attention.

based on the last VCs, Naomi and Massive had the most votes. Can the people voting these people point me to your reasons so i can attempt to see if I agree or disagree with them and also do some fact checking?

Thanks

You sure have posted an awful lot to not have been paying attention.

[Xkfyu]

so can you tell me who you are voting for and why instead of giving me a shit about my number of posts.

Aren't you ignoring me anyways?

[Xkfyu]

I was but I realize I can't figure out the game while ignoring people.

How open-minded of you.

I'm currently voting Naomi. See Post 410 for both my reasoning and my hesitance in voting her.

[Xkfyu]

Oops

Post 410

[Xkfyu]

I am always looking elsewhere.

[Xkfyu]

Who is Jean?

Naomi?

[Xkfyu]

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

[Xkfyu]

the proper question is how anyone sensible is SRing Zach

It's really not that hard of a scum read, to be honest.

[Xkfyu]

Hello,

I'm having a hard time following the conversation here. I will try to catch up today or tomorrow and post my thoughts. So far I agree with itlepip and others on Zach's filler posts. Seems like a scummy thing to cloud the conversation, but I don't know if he always just behaves like this.

There really isn't much of anything to follow. Just a bunch of back and forth bickering and childish "you're dumb" comments.

Basically, unwarranted large egos getting in the way of good scum hunting.

[Xkfyu]

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

Well she admitted that's what she's doing this game so naturally I'm going to think it's going to be like that in other games.

Again, false.

Are you having trouble reading?

[Xkfyu]

Are you? She said she's giving Gerry a free pass day 1 cause they are friends.

I am. Which is how I know that isn't what she said.

What she ACTUALLY said was that Gerry doesn't do anything in D1, but he does do more after that. And she knows that because they are friends.

And she never said anything about giving him a "free pass." Those were your words.

pedit: Went back and read a little huh?

[Xkfyu]

Nope not talking about you. Not even sure why he felt the need to bring it back up or why I was stupid enough to engage him. It's not relevant to the game.

It's extremely relevant, actually.

[Xkfyu]

How?

Because what you said about Maria was false. Anyone can see that. You basically admitted as much after having a little reread.

Now, if you were intentionally making it up, in order to push an agenda, then that would make you scum and Maria town.

If you genuinely believed what you were saying about Maria, and were just wrong, then you're more than likely town, and it's a null look on Maria.

So yeah, pretty relevant. Just probably not in the way you were thinking.

[Xkfyu]

Even if I were scum I'd still believe what I said because that's what she actually implies. My opinion of her statement wouldn't change based on my alignment which is why it's not game relevant. Thanks for proving to me yet again you should probably be ignored

She didn't imply that. Not even close. You're still wrong. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make it true.

Opinions are non AI. If you haven't figured that out yet why are you even playing this game?

Opinions, just like anything else, can be faked.

Scum can give genuined opinions sure, but town ALWAYS (for the most part) give genuine opinions. So, not all opinions are NAI.

[Xkfyu]

That being said, MY opinion of Maria's statement is the same as Twoface's -- that she's purposefully giving gerry a pass today. But honestly, she's giving everyone a pass today, she just has a "reason" for this one.

I'm actually not arguing that she's isn't giving him a pass today. That much is true.

I'm arguing that she isn't giving him a pass today because they are friends. She is giving him a pass today because of meta reasons that suggest he will be useful D2 and beyond.

[Xkfyu]

It really doesn't matter anymore though, since the only reason I questioned him on it was to test his conviction.

[Xkfyu]

I'm not into policy lynches but if itlepip, Gerry, or

something smart

got to l-1 I'd hammer.

Good luck lynching the mod....as fun as that might be.

[Xkfyu]

Lol I actually figured that's who you meant.

[Xkfyu]

I'm not into policy lynches but if itlepip, Gerry, or something smart got to l-1 I'd hammer.

itlepip is pretty towny

??? Lol what

I agree with Dunn.

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: Naomi-Tan

VOTE: gerryoat

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: Naomi-Tan

VOTE: gerryoat

VOTE: Xkfyu


We are over 750 posts in I expect an explanation.

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm sure it won't be the last time.

[Xkfyu]

ya'll need to do a better job of making it look like you aren't partners. This scum theatre is boring. Not even worth popping pop corn

It's crazy how you can just see whatever it is you want to see like that.

[Xkfyu]

I would say it's crazy you don't see it, but I have to remember who i'm speaking to. You have already made some posts that make me question your ability to play mafia.

By all means, explain it to us idiots.

[Xkfyu]

massive has been trying to discredit gerry for a while now and even suggest that we get rid of him before lylo

gerry sees massive say that and instead of attacking him, he attacks me claiming it was my idea this whole time. he even quotes the post where massive makes the comment and I say I agree with him yet he comes to the same conclusion that i somehow said it.

that right there is enough to cast doubt on at least gerry as being scum but add in the part where he acts like he didn't know I was talking about him being friends is just extra icing for the cake.

so now gerry is very obviously caught scum and what is massive's response? he votes me and not caught scum.

now add in massive's piss poor reason for voting naomi it's pretty obvious he is scum also.


massive is scum
gerry is scum

neither want to vote each other.

Thank you for that.

[Xkfyu]

Gerry and Massive, I think it's time to find another wagon.

[Xkfyu]

btw if I am wrong about you (which I really don't think I am) you need to move on from the naomi wagon, at least until you can come up with something better than the green/blue/red thing. That isn't a good enough reason to lynch and you should know that

You know, if you'd quit defending Naomi so damn hard, I'd be fine with never voting you again for the rest of the game.

[Xkfyu]

man Xkfyu wtf was that? Outside of just disagreeing with a read (gasp) why does that matter?

I assume you're talking about what I said about never voting TwoFace again?

[Xkfyu]

His confirmation bias is.......other-worldly, and his refusal to listen to reason screams arrogant town to me, and not scum tunneling.

[Xkfyu]

So why is his Naomi townread disconcerting?

Good question, actually, now that I think about it.

I guess it shouldn't bother me, since it's probably stemming more from an attacking massive perspective, rather than one of defending Naomi.

Thanks for that.

[Xkfyu]

His confirmation bias is.......other-worldly, and his refusal to listen to reason screams arrogant town to me, and not scum tunneling.

I am pretty sure you have me confused with somebody else.

I'm actually fairly certain that I don't.

[Xkfyu]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm sure it won't be the last time.

No not cool. maybe okay upto a certain stage in the game we are past that. You can't just go around voting people with no reason and not give a reason when asked. There is no way to get a read out of it properly! I do not approve of this vote and approve less of your unwillingness to share why your voting.

Ah, there's your mistake. You assume that I am actually concerned about people reading me from it, instead of the other way around.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you pass judgement on people's posts in isolation, or do you see a player, on a whole, as scummy or townie?

[Xkfyu]

His confirmation bias is.......other-worldly, and his refusal to listen to reason screams arrogant town to me, and not scum tunneling.

I am pretty sure you have me confused with somebody else.

I'm actually fairly certain that I don't.

I haven't used any conf bias though and I don't recall anyone trying to reason with me. I'm a very reasonable person.

I don't appreciate you downplaying my scum hunting as conf bias.

Well yeah, that's pretty much the whole thing about confirmation bias. Those who are guilty of it aren't aware of it. Otherwise, if you were aware of it, you wouldn't suffer from it.

[Xkfyu]

Weak town circle of about 5 (ASP, Twoface, Nos, Dunn, Naomi) Strong are Dunn and Naomi, weakest is ASP

I'm actually mostly in agreement with you here. I completely agree with you on TwoFace and Dunn, mostly on Nos, and I might even be starting to come around on Naomi.

However, ASP is a different story. I realize you say it's a weak read, but I haven't even been able to get even that on him yet. What makes you lean town on him?

[Xkfyu]

His confirmation bias is.......other-worldly, and his refusal to listen to reason screams arrogant town to me, and not scum tunneling.

I am pretty sure you have me confused with somebody else.

I'm actually fairly certain that I don't.

I haven't used any conf bias though and I don't recall anyone trying to reason with me. I'm a very reasonable person.

I don't appreciate you downplaying my scum hunting as conf bias.

Either you don't know what conf. bias actually means or you don't know what scum hunting looks like.

Ok

[Xkfyu]

@Mod: V/LA for the weekend.

[Xkfyu]

So Zach isn't getting lynched? Sigh.

I'd lynch Zach. Certainly over Dunn.

[Xkfyu]

In fact...

UNVOTE: gerryoat

VOTE: Zachstralkita

[Xkfyu]

Panther, I think I'm town reading you again...

Should I be concerned?

[Xkfyu]

Panther, I think I'm town reading you again...

Should I be concerned?

not gonna lie this made me smile

but didn't you say this as scum

Indeed.

[Xkfyu]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

[Xkfyu]

@xkfyu

What you are sayin is equivalent to "why scum hunt at all?"

That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is more equivalent to "don't use meta to scum hunt at all."

why haven't you taken issue with Dunn voting Zach purely off of meta with no other explanation?

Because, no matte how many time I tell them, people still insist that meta is a good scum hunting tool.

Apparently, people believe that everyone else are just Mafia playing automatons that play a certain way as town, and a completely different way as scum.

And if people can't understand that a self-aware Mafia player can change up the way he/she plays, at will, then no amount of lecturing from me will help them.

[Xkfyu]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

good luck to you on that front.

you can say why if you genuinely mean it and want others to get behind it. it's a bit surprising considering you left the thread saying you townread me.

that would mean you're full caught up on posts since then. but you just said that you haven't read the nonsesne between the two of them. so what have you read and what have you not????

(there's also the question hanging out there about why you don't mind dunn's push on zach being meta-based, despite being on the record to strongly dislike cases/votes based on meta.)

Thanks for that. Yeah, I do mean it. I meant the town read thing too, but I've changed my mind.

Don't worry though. I have no illusions of being able to lynch you. Not right now anyways. You're too townie to ever lynch early game, based on play, even when you're scum.

And no, I'm not completely caught up. I've done quite a bit of skimming, but Dunn and Zach have been arguing like this all game. It's really off putting.

Anyways, in respect to the question that I must have missed, I hate both of their meta based pushes on the other one. I understand that when you play with someone on a regular basis, some form of meta is unavoidable. I even do it some on the other site that I play on when each game consists of mostly the same player pool. In general though, I just think it's dumb. At best, it's unreliable.

However, I don't ever think it's scummy, and the fact that they are both using meta as evidence for the cases on the other is completely irrelevant in respect to my individual reads on them.

[Xkfyu]

@xkfyu

What you are sayin is equivalent to "why scum hunt at all?"

That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is more equivalent to "don't use meta to scum hunt at all."

why haven't you taken issue with Dunn voting Zach purely off of meta with no other explanation?

Because, no matte how many time I tell them, people still insist that meta is a good scum hunting tool.

Apparently, people believe that everyone else are just Mafia playing automatons that play a certain way as town, and a completely different way as scum.

And if people can't understand that a self-aware Mafia player can change up the way he/she plays, at will, then no amount of lecturing from me will help them.

so you just got to post 1210 now in your catch up.

what made you want to vote me prior to that post? bc you said I'm shooting up your 'want to lynch' list

We both know that I can't point to something specific that changed my mind. Your logic is valid, and you're asking a good questions. In fact, you totally deserve a town read from everyone. It's a gut feeling is all.

[Xkfyu]

so what in your bit of skimming flipped your read on me

See above.

[Xkfyu]

Damn it. Hell of a time for a page top.

[Xkfyu]

don't understand how you scum read xkf.

these posts were horrible. and remind me of how awkwardly xkf posted in the scum game we just played together.

Spoiler:

VOTE: TwoFace

Mine flipped tails.

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

so why is your vote serious?

I think your "coin flip" was fake.

well it wasn't, but even if it was that would make you want to seriously vote me?

if you are town

I would seriously vote you for far less reasons.

he backpedals it later and this post reads very fake:

Spoiler:

i'm going to learn hard town on toto right now.

Why?

@grapes - because he's painfully obvious town. His actions look genuine to me. His response that he was accused of being coached look genuine.

@dunn - mainly for post 114 (but tbh none of your posts make me get a town vibe). No way town makes that post. It's obvious he was sharing his thoughts and even VI's (which I didn't get the impression he was) and n00bs (which he probably is) are perfectly capable of doing. He's an easy target for scum to go after. Then I saw the very next post and that screams scum. Who freaking cares if massive dropped an Rvs vote and didn't comment on anything else. It's not AI at all. You then accuse him of ignoring the game which you don't even know it's true(which he later confirms isn't).

It's basically seems like you are trying too hard and being very manipulative

Full disclosure here. All the stuff I said earlier about my vote on you being serious, none of that was serious. Well, it was serious, I just wasn't seriously scum reading you.

NOW, however, I am, and my vote will remain on you.

minor ding for feeling the need to say he was town in this post

Spoiler:

How so?

Went from looking like a vi to knowing exactly what they're talking about

The way they talked was different along with what they were saying

This is the post Twoface says "no town would make"

Which is weird, because I'm town and it's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

Didn't like his quick jump onto naomi after massive 'slip' thing

And then the rest of his ISO is a whole bunch of arguing over nothing. he isn't inquiring into things to read alignments. posts like these are not solving the game:

Spoiler:

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

the proper question is how anyone sensible is SRing Zach

It's really not that hard of a scum read, to be honest.

Hello,

I'm having a hard time following the conversation here. I will try to catch up today or tomorrow and post my thoughts. So far I agree with itlepip and others on Zach's filler posts. Seems like a scummy thing to cloud the conversation, but I don't know if he always just behaves like this.

There really isn't much of anything to follow. Just a bunch of back and forth bickering and childish "you're dumb" comments.

Basically, unwarranted large egos getting in the way of good scum hunting.

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

Well she admitted that's what she's doing this game so naturally I'm going to think it's going to be like that in other games.

Again, false.

Are you having trouble reading?

Are you? She said she's giving Gerry a free pass day 1 cause they are friends.

I am. Which is how I know that isn't what she said.

What she ACTUALLY said was that Gerry doesn't do anything in D1, but he does do more after that. And she knows that because they are friends.

And she never said anything about giving him a "free pass." Those were your words.

pedit: Went back and read a little huh?

Nope not talking about you. Not even sure why he felt the need to bring it back up or why I was stupid enough to engage him. It's not relevant to the game.

It's extremely relevant, actually.

How?

Because what you said about Maria was false. Anyone can see that. You basically admitted as much after having a little reread.

Now, if you were intentionally making it up, in order to push an agenda, then that would make you scum and Maria town.

If you genuinely believed what you were saying about Maria, and were just wrong, then you're more than likely town, and it's a null look on Maria.

So yeah, pretty relevant. Just probably not in the way you were thinking.

Even if I were scum I'd still believe what I said because that's what she actually implies. My opinion of her statement wouldn't change based on my alignment which is why it's not game relevant. Thanks for proving to me yet again you should probably be ignored

She didn't imply that. Not even close. You're still wrong. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make it true.

Opinions are non AI. If you haven't figured that out yet why are you even playing this game?

Opinions, just like anything else, can be faked.

Scum can give genuined opinions sure, but town ALWAYS (for the most part) give genuine opinions. So, not all opinions are NAI.

That being said, MY opinion of Maria's statement is the same as Twoface's -- that she's purposefully giving gerry a pass today. But honestly, she's giving everyone a pass today, she just has a "reason" for this one.

I'm actually not arguing that she's isn't giving him a pass today. That much is true.

I'm arguing that she isn't giving him a pass today because they are friends. She is giving him a pass today because of meta reasons that suggest he will be useful D2 and beyond.

I'm trying to paint the picture here but it's the overall body of work

Then he just came back in simultaneously saying he has switched from townreading me to scumreading me while also saying that he didn't read any dunn:zach back and forth which doesn't add up

Please don't try to meta read me.

There is a reason why I believe that everyone is capable of manipulating their meta.

[Xkfyu]

Oh damn. Didn't realize we were that close to deadline.

[Xkfyu]

Well, you guys figure it out, and I'll be back before deadline.

I'm willing to lynch anyone who isn't Dunnstral and TwoFace. Though, I will lynch them too, if I need to secure a lynch.

[Xkfyu]

Please don't try to meta read me.

There is a reason why I believe that everyone is capable of manipulating their meta.

making awkward posts isn't a meta read. it's something scum struggle with. just happened to have seen it from you recently is all. it's not you-specific in any way, shape, or form

Fair enough.

[Xkfyu]

Alright, I'm here. Who we lynching?

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: Zachstralkita

VOTE: MariaR

I'm good with this.

[Xkfyu]

You guys ready to lynch Panther yet?

[Xkfyu]

There is no way Dunn fake claims Friendly Neighbor as scum. Not to simply save himself from being lynched anyways. It would be one of the worst roles to fake claim. Only slightly better than him claiming that he's a mod-confirmable IC.

The only way I am ever even consider voting Dunn is if Grapes flips scum, because I

could

see this as a bussing maneuver.

[Xkfyu]

The far more likely scenario is that Dunn was simply blocked, hoping to get an easy mislynch.

[Xkfyu]

With that logic you'd think maf would never claim cop to get a lynch, but that shit happens all the time

You say that, and yet, I've never actually seen it. Not in the manner in which you are describing.

my biggest issue is with how he didn't even consider grapes as scum and immediately said he was blocked.

Why is that an issue? It was my first thought as well, and still the likeliest scenario.

[Xkfyu]

1. Just off the top of my head NY192 RC claimed cop to get Nero lynched and we lynched him, only for him to be town and lynch RC the next day.

That's just once, and hardly qualifies as "all the time." Plus, it was RC, which hardly qualifies for anything. I wouldn't rule anything at all out when it comes to him. Also, he was lynched the next day, which fuller supports my point. There is a reason why scum don't make claims like that, and like what Dunn claimed. There is no longevity in the claim.

2. The thing is, if I were in that scenario, I don't think that would be my first reaction. Maybe its that I don't have much faith in my reads at times, but even if I was townreading anyone, if I were a friendly neighbor and they denied that I visited them, I would immediately vote them, and then I'd probably think "oh wait maybe I was rb'd". Idk it doesn't seem like townie mentality when I think about it.

If you were scum, and you knew that a Friendly Neighbor visited you during N1, would you confirm the visit, or lie about it, in hopes of getting them lynched?

[Xkfyu]

EBWOP

fuller = further

Not sure what happened with that one.

[Xkfyu]

VC 2.1

Dunnstral (3)- grapes, Toto, TwoFace
PantherPunt (1)- Dunnstral
Naomi-Tan (1)- massive
grapes (1)- Naomi-Tan

Not voting (5)- PantherPunt, Xkfyu, gerryoat, Nosferatu, Zachstralkita

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

(expired on 2016-10-29 12:00:00)

Mod notes: Xkfyu is V/LA until Monday.

Assuming I'm right about Dunnstral being town, I doubt any of the ones voting Dunn here are scum.

VOTE: Dunn

And I'm 50/50 on this one.

[Xkfyu]

Also

VOTE: PantherPunt

[Xkfyu]

Why do you think no one of { grapes, Toto, Twoface } are scum?

Why, compared to them, are you only 50/50 on gerryoat?

Because a Friendly Neighbor caught in an apparent lie is the exact sort of wagon that town will very easily vote for. Therefore, scum don't need to vote Dunn.

Gerry's vote looked like the same thing, but I'm on the fence as to whether it was genuine or just meant to look the same.

[Xkfyu]

What the fuck did I walk back into

VOTE: Dunn

we have practically conf scum??

No

[Xkfyu]

No Naomi, unless his role PM specifically says so, role like that don't get informed if/when their actions fails.

[Xkfyu]

Dunn is mafia lol. You guys need to stop being so scared, he isn't a friendly neighbor. why the hell would he be RB'd

That's a ridiculous question.

[Xkfyu]

Why is it not equally likely that we'd want to trade, naomi?

An equally ridiculous question.

[Xkfyu]

vig this is why you dont shoot night one. you wait to get more reads from a flip than a NL.

Shooting Maria last night was the perfect Vig shot. Having been the vote leader yesterday, at the time of the No Lynch, she probably would have just been lynched today. The Vig saved us a mislynch.

[Xkfyu]

Also how do you know vig shot maria and not itepip

Because itlepip claimed pr while maria was town's lynch

I can't imagine scum nightkilling maria, and can't imagine vig shooting itlepip. Looks obvious to me.

Very obvious.

[Xkfyu]

lol you guys are being dumb. please tell me why you are "cool" with voting me. I'd like an explanation if that's your read. You cant just place a vote and say you're cool with it and not explain why

I'm cool with this.

UNVOTE: PantherPunt

VOTE: gerryoat

Also still cool with lynching Panther.

[Xkfyu]

And Zach.

[Xkfyu]

Checking in to show that I'm alive. I need to catch up in earnest.

But since I see it, I have to ask. xkf - why are you cool with lynching me? Last you left it it was "can't point to anything it's just gut. you look towny" or something to that effect

Nothing has really changed.

[Xkfyu]

Lol

[Xkfyu]

Mental note. ISO grapes soon

I just read this ISO and I want to kill now

VOTE: grapes

Nah man. We're lynching Gerry today.

[Xkfyu]

@Mod; In the hypothetical situation that a messenger was roleblocked during this can would they be informed that there action failed?

Can you clarify what you mean by "messenger"?

Speculative - mod not knowing what Naomi is referring to here is a bad look.

It also is pretty modspewy that Naomi is town. Sorry I'm not sorry for the angleshot.

Bad look for who? Also I disagree that this is indicative from the mod

I could see how it could look "modspewy" ....but only if you already knew that Naomi is town.

[Xkfyu]

VOTE: Zach

Vote Gerry with us.

[Xkfyu]

VOTE: Zach

Vote Gerry with us.

Or we can go back to Panther. I'd be perfectly fine with that.

[Xkfyu]

aaaaaaaaand we have an opportunistic post here from xkfyu

What of it?

[Xkfyu]

There wasn't anything AI about the way Panther responded to that.

I don't know about YOU, but I certainly didn't see it as modspewy.

[Xkfyu]

There wasn't anything AI about the way Panther responded to that.

I don't know about YOU, but I certainly didn't see it as modspewy.

What you said was that one could only see it as such if they knew said player is town.

So you are claiming Panther is scum?

I don't believe that's a good basis to make that statement on, though.

I'm ok with catching him for the wrong reasons.

[Xkfyu]

Mental note. ISO grapes soon

I just read this ISO and I want to kill now

VOTE: grapes

Nah man. We're lynching Gerry today.

who are your top town reads - 3 would be great

who are your top scum reads? gerry. me inexplicably. and who else? maybe even 2 if you realize you have no reason to think I'm scum and regardless you're never going to get me lynched

One more day is all I'll need to get you lynched. Count on it.

Top town reads: TwoFace, Dunnstral, and probably Naomi
Top scum reads: You, Gerry, and.......you

[Xkfyu]

[quote="In post 1742, PantherPunt"][/quote]
Not yet. Be patient.

[Xkfyu]

if you think I'm scum push it now. say why. get me lynched

Not yet. Be patient.

[Xkfyu]

In the mean time, how bout you bus your buddy and help us lynch Gerry.

[Xkfyu]

In the mean time, how bout you bus your buddy and help us lynch Gerry.

I'm about 95% sure you're scum just for how unnatural feeling this post is

Assuming that post was unnatural, what would that other 5% be?

[Xkfyu]

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

It has that same very faux attempt at looking confident and tough that you had here^

You catch on quick.

[Xkfyu]

that you've had a lobotomy or a similar explanation as to how you're so different from when we've towned together

Feel free to completely ignore this advice until after the game, but my play style, as both alignments, can vary fairly drastically from game to game, even from day to day sometimes.

I maintain that reading me based solely off play style is utterly useless.

you have the callback punchline thing down pat..that's twice you've gotten me to smile with it.

Thanks for that.

[Xkfyu]

ngl guys,

I wish I was mafia.

This game is hard to follow along. No one in particular is standing out right now.

Why hasn't anyone even fos'd me yet? I've done absolutely nothing for 14 pages.

Naomi-tan said I had good content or something, so right now if I were forced to, i'd vote her. But, even that is meh.

the self concious of your scuminess tell

I find town don't often have these thoughts because it doesn't naturally occur to you that others would see you as mafia bc you know you're town. not sure if that explains it adequately so let me know if this is falling flat for anyone. feedback in general is good

It's falling flat.

[Xkfyu]

maybe ____'s right and panther dunn are 2/3

You think me and panther are hard bussing?

bold strategy cotton etc etc

Now I'm the one grinning.

[Xkfyu]

Lot of variables and stuff. But I guess the main point I'm making here is that my scumread who was supposed to " confirm" himself was roleblocked in the most convenient fashion. And somehow itlepip winds up dead. And you are all fine with this.

Yes, very much so.

Town Dunn being roleblocked is the best case scenario for scum.

The danger in a Friendly Neighbor being alive increases the longer he remains alive, due to the nature of the role.

Removing his ability to visit anyone every night not only removes that danger, but also puts a lot of suspicion on the FN, since no one is every visited, and therefore no one can ever confirm him. Resulting in his inevitable lynch.

Now, as scum, he would still never be able to be confirmed by anyone. Still resulting in his inevitable lynch.

It's such a ridiculous fake claim that it doesn't even warrant discussion. Dunn is town. Move along to your next attempted mislynch please.

[Xkfyu]

Noted that as soon as Panther starts questioning Zach, Zach's attitude towards Panther switches from buddy buddy to "this guy could be scum" even when it doesn't really make sense

This is actually pretty big and makes me think Panther might be town



Who would lynch Zach right now?

Me. In a heartbeat.

[Xkfyu]

The only issue is would mafia risk killing itlepip without knowing there was a doc or would they block/kill him?

Nah that's not likely. Nevrmind.

Don't know how my alignment is a factor to this

If you're scum, or better yet a scum RB. Would scum block and kill the same person is what I'm wondering.

No, not unless they knew someone would be watching/tracking and intentionally wanted to make it look like they weren't buddies.

[Xkfyu]

If you're scum, or better yet a scum RB. Would scum block and kill the same person is what I'm wondering.

Would this kill a BP? The way itlepip claimed is consistent with a BP.

But then again, kill the PR block the FN seems simpler. Occan's razor.

Only if the BP was an active ability.

BPs are usually passive though, so most likely not.

[Xkfyu]

Maybe scum have a strongman and that's why they went for itlepip; or maybe they yolo'd it because town failed to lynch day 1

It really doesn't matter why.

[Xkfyu]

Xk why's dunn town?

My Post 1853 should cover that sufficiently.

[Xkfyu]

The only issue is would mafia risk killing itlepip without knowing there was a doc or would they block/kill him?

Nah that's not likely. Nevrmind.

Don't know how my alignment is a factor to this

If you're scum, or better yet a scum RB. Would scum block and kill the same person is what I'm wondering.

Either I was roleblocked or grapes is lying.

Maybe he's telling the truth AND you were roleblocked.

[Xkfyu]

Either I was roleblocked or grapes is lying.

Maybe he's telling the truth AND you were roleblocked.

I don't think you are contradicting each other...

I was just pointing out that if Grapes is telling the truth that it doesn't necessarily mean he is town.

He could be Mafia, and still not have received the visit. In which case, he would have KNOWN that Dunn was blocked and knew that it was safe to claim that he didn't receive the visit.

Either way, I think Dunn was blocked. I think scum Grapes, who did receive the visit, would just claim that he received the visit.

[Xkfyu]

17. The Mafia have unrestricted daytalk in this game.

Is there any way we can use this? I expect mafia to be more... coordinated?

What are you getting at here exactly?

Who seems uncoordinated?

+1

What's your point Toto?

[Xkfyu]

And if grapes were lying, they could claim I was roleblocked after my death

if you are town, I don't think you were roleblocked

Then, if Dunn flips town, Grapes is confirmed scum to you?

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: gerryoat

VOTE: grapes

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: gerryoat

VOTE: grapes

Don't be bad.

I'm not. This is simple. As long as TwoFace is right, either you or Dunn is confirmed scum.

[Xkfyu]

Twoface why don't you think RB could be a thing?

I am doubting that if we have a RB, it was used on dunn

Wait what?

So, the fact that you don't believe Dunn was roleblocked doesn't have anything to do with your role?

[Xkfyu]

Just yes or no. Please don't claim or do anything ridiculous.

[Xkfyu]

UNVOTE: Grapes

[Xkfyu]

Waiting on TwoFace's response.

[Xkfyu]

Though, I'm pretty sure I already have my answer.

[Xkfyu]

Twoface why don't you think RB could be a thing?

I am doubting that if we have a RB, it was used on dunn

Wait what?

So, the fact that you don't believe Dunn was roleblocked doesn't have anything to do with your role?

I think the way you worded this doesn't read right to me.

If mafia has a RB, I don't think it was used on dunn but I have no way of knowing if mafia has one or not.

Sorry for the awkward phrasing. You answered the question though.

VOTE: gerryoat

[Xkfyu]

Gerry, Panther, and either Toto or Zach (probably Toto, after that quick vote hop over to Grapes) are scum.

[Xkfyu]

So you don't think it's Grapes?

Nah. I fully believe you were roleblocked.

[Xkfyu]

no massive?

I simply don't have room for massive, and he's a null read anyways.

also if we somehow find out that dunn is town, grapes will have to go back on your list cause that means grapes probably lied.

You fully believe that Dunn wasn't roleblocked. I get that.

However, I disagree because I know if I were scum, and I had a roleblocking ability, the claimed Friendly Neighbor would have been my top pick to block.

[Xkfyu]

So you don't think it's Grapes?

Nah. I fully believe you were roleblocked.

Why can't Dunn be roleblocked and Grapes still be scum. it works out the exact same way with no confirmation, he just gets the be the one to say so

Dunn being roleblocked does not a town Grapes make

You not taking that into consideration might have spewed grapes town if you're scum. so that's a plus

I've already discussed that just a few pages back. Stop bothering me scum. Or, at least catch up properly.

[Xkfyu]

Twoface you're sending me a lot of mixed messages here.

no I am not actually. I think you are confusing things.

barring shenanigans or stupidity, I don't think both of you can be town. All other combinations I think are possible

I think that's specifically what he's talking about.

You can't see how they are both town, but you are (and have been for a while) voting Gerry.

[Xkfyu]

You can't see how they are both town, but you are (and have been for a while) voting Gerry.

correct. i don't think both of them are town but have no way of knowing which is which.

I am voting gerry because his d1 play has convinced me he is caught scum and his d2 play hasn't done anything to change that. Plus I have no way of figuring out which one of the 2 are lying so i'd rather go with the sure thing over the 50/50

That's fine with me. I'm totally fine with it. I was just pointing out what Grapes was saying.

[Xkfyu]

I wanna know why you decided to quote the OP and say you expected mafia to be more coordinated. At a time when we were doing a bunch of rambunctious things, I thought you may have been referring to specific reads with that. Go more into why your expectations aren't being met.

I was reading the rules again to check if I could find anything interesting about whether it is likely that we have a roleblocker or not, and stumbled on that. I was brainstorming and looking mostly for advice. I already explained this. Also I wanted to highlight it in case someone missed it. I haven't developed any reads because of it. I need to re-read the game with that knowledge and see if I find something to report.

But now that you understand a roleblocker existing would create a situation where we could both be telling the truth; you're still trying to push that one of us is scum. And my push on dunn comes from a place of already knowing my own alignment. Your voting him after I voted him shadowed that too great an extent. I understand that you may have pushed him a bit yesterday, but it wasn't anywhere near as loud as I did.

I'm pushing you now because I don't believe that you really doubt my reasoning. If you made the same mistake I did, it makes no sense that you doubt my intentions, specially since you say you were town-reading me. I think you are just trying to doubcast me.

These two paragraphs sound like they came from two completely different people, with completely different experience levels.

[Xkfyu]

Twoface why don't you think RB could be a thing?

I am doubting that if we have a RB, it was used on dunn

Wait what?

So, the fact that you don't believe Dunn was roleblocked doesn't have anything to do with your role?

that fishhhhh

Yeah yeah yeah.

[Xkfyu]

Hey Panther, Gerry is getting lynched today. Better jump on his wagon to get the town creds.

[Xkfyu]

These two paragraphs sound like they came from two completely different people, with completely different experience levels.

If you are referring to the use of the term doubt-casting I learned that term very recently. I'm not allowed to give you a reference.

I'm talking about the thought process in the two paragraphs.

I'm almost certain that you're faking your inexperience, and you're really just an alt of someone.

[Xkfyu]

gerry feels like a mislynch in my gut but I might be ready to just roll over and say lynch it

Yeah you are!

[Xkfyu]

Hey Panther, Gerry is getting lynched today. Better jump on his wagon to get the town creds.

This is at least the 2nd time if not 3rd you've said something to be to the effect of "bus for the cred Panther"

it's scummy and I recommend you stop doing it. just a tip for your game

Thanks for the tip.

[Xkfyu]

That would have been funny. I agree.

[Xkfyu]

Guys seriously let's lynch this^

Oh I so want to.

If I wasn't so sold on the Gerry lynch............

[Xkfyu]

I'd lynch Naomi if not dunn.

I dunn's town then gerry is probably scum.

and now toto

all since dunn

wtf

You do realize that that's only a total of 4 players that Grapes has scum read, right?

[Xkfyu]

gerry at least might be bad town

Toto's just scum.

I hear ya.

I'm gonna stick to my guns on this one though. I feel better about the Gerry lynch.

[Xkfyu]

Why are you PoEing?

I haven't even started pushing your lynch yet.

[Xkfyu]

Panther is town, don't lynch him tomorrow.

[Xkfyu]

Gerry, Toto, and Zach are scum.

And massive could probably be substituted for any of the above.

[Xkfyu]

I'd lynch Zach, but I'd like for the Vig to shoot either Gerry or Toto.

[Xkfyu]

Preferably Gerry.

[Xkfyu]

I would guess the mafia team is Dunn/Xk/grapes

Grapes just wanted to trade with Dunn who is a mafia PR.

Grapes as scum only makes sense if Dunn is also scum.

If Dunn and Xk are scum then it is very likely that grapes/naomi is also scum.

So Im gonna go ahead and VOTE: Dunn which seems more rational and informative according to the above

You never trade 1 scum for 1 town when you're scum. You just....don't....ever.

Stop pretending you don't know these things.

[Xkfyu]

Not sure how what I said before is clueless. When you take into account that it makes zero sense that friendly neighbor Dunn is alive.

if itlepip claimed pr why did that kill still happen? you would think there would be some reasonable fear or protection, in which case maybe Dunn would be that NK because scum would take the not obvious route. But no. itlepip was killed without recourse. which means there is quite possibly no protective role or said role is a shithead.

but the second killer being a vig makes sense setup wise if there is no doctor

Act oblivious if you want. Consider me oblivious which is the easier option.

If you want to explain how hard defending Dunn and lynching gerryoat/grapes ISN'T clueless, be my guest.

If you also want to explain away Dunn developing a scumread on anyone who happens to point out his scummy actions you can do that too.

Besides dunn who is scum I have a scumread on xk due to the way he pushes his rhetoric. I do not believe it comes from a town pov.


lurkers also deserve attn.
particularly fucking nosferatu. yeah. he's in this game.

If I was a doctor, I would have definitely protected Dunn over pip last night.

[Xkfyu]

If You and Grapes are scum, then Xk would be in the top of my list of potential 3rd member of the team. He has been involved in the Grapes/Dunn discussion without taking any sides.

You can't be serious.

He is tunneling Gerry and has suggested the Vig should shoot him (unconditionally), which seems like setting up a night-kill.

This is absolutely true though.

Is Grapes scum?

I don't think so.

If Grapes is scum, doesn't that make Dunn scum too?

For the 100th time no, it doesn't.

[Xkfyu]

Wouldn't it be more likely he would just play along and say you visited him if he was mafia and you were town? Mafia could just NK tonight, why go the hard way?

If scum have a roleblocker, Dunn will never be killed.

A Friendly Neighbor is the

perfect

PR to perma-roleblock.

[Xkfyu]

TwoFace, which would you prefer to lynch out of Toto and Zach?

I'd still prefer Gerry, but there's no way I'm letting Dunn be lynched today so we may have to move to one of the other two.

[Xkfyu]

Why will nobody even say massive's name. If he was town, wouldn't that be an easy push for scum? Dude doesn't post

That's the problem with chronic lurkers though.

I'm not opposed to lynching him. I'm scum reading others much harder though.

[Xkfyu]

Toto isn't scum

Why will nobody even say massive's name. If he was town, wouldn't that be an easy push for scum? Dude doesn't post

ive said his name a bunch, even asked why people aren't scum reading him

If you aren't interested in lynching Toto or Zach, I'd support massive's lynch today over Dunn's.

[Xkfyu]

Why are we giving up on Gerry?

I can go with massive also

I don't want to, but it looks like there may be more interest in lynching Dunn than Gerry, and I don't want that to happen either.

[Xkfyu]

Dunn only has 3 votes and they are Gerry/zach/toto.

2 who are talking nonsense and Gerry Whois t saying anything

That's such a bad wagon

I agree, but I feel like someone not on Dunn's wagon has expressed interest in lynching him.

Naomi maybe? Or did I just make that up?

[Xkfyu]

You've just made me want to lynch Toto even more.

[Xkfyu]

@Xkfyu. Why do you find the posts where I bring up the fact that mafia has daytalk in this game scummy? just curious. Or you just want to lynch me for sport?

It's not what you posted, but when.

There was a lot of talk around that time about Dunn being roleblocked, and instead of diving into that conversation (I'll admit that you didn't completely ignore it), you pose this completely random and useless question to the thread.

[Xkfyu]

In fact the very fact Mafia has daytalk should indicate they are less likely (for game balance purposes) to have more PRs, therefore a roleblocker.

How is that not relevant?

It isn't relevant because that is invalid (or at least incomplete) logic. You can't have any kind of idea as to what PRs Mafia may may not have when the only two roles you have seen are your own, one VT, and one Tracker.

Also, I thought you were inexperienced? How does someone with such little experience feel like they know what a balanced game looks like? Let along know what balance measures were taken based on just 3 town roles.

[Xkfyu]

In fact the very fact Mafia has daytalk should indicate they are less likely (for game balance purposes) to have more PRs, therefore a roleblocker.

How is that not relevant?

It isn't relevant because that is invalid (or at least incomplete) logic. You can't have any kind of idea as to what PRs Mafia may may not have when the only two roles you have seen are your own, one VT, and one Tracker.

Also, I thought you were inexperienced? How does someone with such little experience feel like they know what a balanced game looks like? Let along know what balance measures were taken based on just 3 town roles.

how many people how many times are going to shade Toto for "looking like they know more than they should"

stfu about it already. it's bullshit and it's scummy

You're right. It is scummy to play dumb.

[Xkfyu]

@Mod: V/LA for the weekend.

[Xkfyu]

[And there was much rejoicing.]

yay

I approve this reference.

[Xkfyu]

I understand this. My point was that encryptor = daytalk for the purposes of game balance. So I'm looking at similar setups.

If you understood that, you wouldn't be looking for stepups with encryptor. It is 100% fact this game doesn't have an encryptor which means yes it's possible mafia has a roleblocker.

It was be possible even with an Encryptor.

[Xkfyu]

It is 100% fact this game doesn't have an encryptor

It is also a 100% fact that mafia has daytalk. Since I'm assuming encryptor = daytalk then I don't see a problem with this. Are you trying to say my assumption is wrong? if so, why?

You haven't even seen my conclusion yet and you are already defending the fact that mafia has roleblockers. Why?

It really doesn't matter what your conclusion is because, as of right now, you can't reasonably predict whether or not scum have a Roleblocker.

The Encryptor and Roleblocker roles are completely independent of one another. The fact that scum have day talk has exactly zero bearing on whether or not they have a Roleblocker.

You are wasting your time.

[Xkfyu]

@Xk: If I'm wasting my time I'm open to suggestions of what to do instead. Plus I don't think I am since I'm learning a lot with the exercise.

I'll rephrase then.

It is a complete waste of time, as far as solving this game is concerned.

Any correlation you find between Mafia daytalk/Encryptor and a Mafia Roleblocker will be purely coincidental. The existence of one has no effect on the existence of the other. When thinking about game balance, no mod has ever said "Well, I have an Ecryptor in the game, I guess I can't include a Roleblocker."

Setups are balanced based on Town vs Scum PRs, not Mafia vs Mafia PRs. Ie any combination of Mafia PRs can exist, given the right combination of Town PRs, and vice versa.

Therefore, if you were trying to find correlations between different PRs, in an attempt to determine whether or not there really is a Roleblocker, then you'd be better served by looking for the existence of Mafia Roleblockers when there is a Town Tracker in the game.

However, don't do this either, because this is also a waste of time, and here's why.

With the exception of a select few semi-uncommon roles that resolve before the roleblocks, a Mafia Roleblocker directly counters any active Town PR. Therefore, any game in which Town has an active PR, a Mafia Roleblocker is a viable role to include in the setup.

And since we already know that itlepip was a Tracker (an active Town PR), we know that the existence of a Mafia Roleblocker is possible.

That's pretty much as good as we can get right now. However, if you are set on doing this kind of research, what you should be looking for is what is the percentage of Mini Normal games that included a Mafia Roleblocker out of the total number of Mini Normal games in which a Mafia Roleblocker was a viable role.

@Xk: If I'm wasting my time I'm open to suggestions of what to do instead. Plus I don't think I am since I'm learning a lot with the exercise.

I'll rephrase then.

It is a complete waste of time, as far as solving this game is concerned.

Setups are balanced based on Town vs Scum PRs, not Mafia vs Mafia PRs. Ie any combination of Mafia PRs can exist, given the right combination of Town PRs, and vice versa.

With the exception of a select few semi-uncommon roles that resolve before the roleblocks, a Mafia Roleblocker directly counters any active Town PR. Therefore, any game in which Town has an active PR, a Mafia Roleblocker is a viable role to include in the setup.

And since we already know that itlepip was a Tracker (an active Town PR), we know that the existence of a Mafia Roleblocker is possible. That's pretty much as good as we can get right now.

[Xkfyu]

Lol oops.

[Xkfyu]

The second part of that is the abridged version of the first.

[Xkfyu]

Thanks! this is much more helpful. I was already looking at mini normal but will take into account viability of role-blocker too. This is going to be more time consuming than I thought, though. I'll try to have a report in 3 days.

I still think, in respect to this game, your time will be better spent interacting with people and asking questions that directly pertain to this game.

Xk, you mentioned you think is Grapes was town before. Why?

Assuming that Dunn is town and has claimed truthfully (which I fully believe to be the case), a scum Grapes assumes one of two things.

Either a) Grapes is lying that he didn't receive Dunn's visit or b) Dunn actually was Roleblocked, and Grapes knows it.

Both scenarios are high risk/low reward for a scum Grapes, in that even if Dunn is lynched, Grapes stands a good chance at being the next lynch, which brings me back to the point I made earlier about scum never trading 1 for 1 with town.

Therefore, the best course of action for a scum Grapes, in this situation, would be to just confirm Dunn's visit and NK Dunn soon, and that isn't what happened.

Even in scenario B, where Grapes knew Dunn was blocked, confirming the visit would at least keep the roleblocker role hidden.

[Xkfyu]

I think I'm willing to give Toto the benefit of the doubt. At least for today.

I initially thought that might be intentionally trying to divert conversations away from scum hunting, but if that's the case or if he really is just playing dumb with all this, then this is some next level shit. So, I'm starting to get the impression that all of this is genuine.

[Xkfyu]

That makes my scum pool for today Gerry, massive, Nosferatu, and Zach.

[Xkfyu]

I think I'm willing to give Toto the benefit of the doubt. At least for today.

I initially thought that might be intentionally trying to divert conversations away from scum hunting, but if that's the case or if he really is just playing dumb with all this, then this is some next level shit. So, I'm starting to get the impression that all of this is genuine.

I don't like this statement. Them saying they found toto initially red off of asking about game setup stuff doesn't sit will with me for 2 reasons; Firstly we was in a slow down. there was nothing really going on as proved by a 50% of town prod, so saying it was 'diverting conversations away from scum hunting' is bs. and secondly we all know its toto's second game on site and they only have a bit of coaching so it makes sense for them to think about this as a new player.

It just doesn't sit right with me that he would get a red! read out of it...

You're either forgetting or choosing to ignore the fact that I was pretty convinced that Toto's inexperience was all just an act.

I'm still not wholly convinced that it isn't, but like I said, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Xkfyu]

Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

Whether you buy it or not is completely irrelevant.

Suppose Toto really is an alt of some experienced player, can you then see why Toto's play is scummy?

[Xkfyu]

Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

Whether you buy it or not is completely irrelevant.

Suppose Toto really is an alt of some experienced player, can you then see why Toto's play is scummy?

No. Im not willing to experiment with that idea. I have to self meta to avoid being D1 lynch and if someone comes in and says there not that experienced and plays not that experienced I do not think that they are red for it.

Of course you're not.

That's fine. I learned a long time ago to avoid arguments with people who are incapable of seeing things from someone else's perspective.

[Xkfyu]

How did we get away from a gerryoat lynch?

We haven't. He's still the vote leader.

[Xkfyu]

Seriously guys where are your fucking FACULTIES.

gerryoat is town

Who, besides Dunn, do you want to lynch then?