Mini 488 - Killings in Clich├®-town - Game Over!

[The Fonz]

OK, guys, I've been going backward and forward over this since i got my pm, but I feel I have to claim immediately.

I'm a cop. My sanity isn't guaranteed, but I got two opposing results, so I'm not paranoid or naive, and insane cops are very rare in mini normals.

I have a guilty on BooKitty, and an innocent on another player, to whom the phrase 'she was scummy' is relevant.

[The Fonz]

Vote: BooKitty

You'd have thought Head Honcho would have done a lot of things.

[The Fonz]

In that my PM doesn't mention sanity at all.

[The Fonz]

Sometimes sane cops get 'your results are guaranteed accurate' or suchlike. I've been in minis with

non

-sane cops, but not

in

sane. I don't think it's likely, but it can't be ruled out. I'd like to see BooKitty claim.

[The Fonz]

If Bookitty is scum, our Doc protects the Fonz, and we stand a good chance of winning.

If Bookitty is town, slight chance, we lynch the Fonz tomorrow. The odds of him really being an insane cop with one innocent and one guilty investigation are so slim as to boggle the mind.

Either way, we are good to go.

Fine. But on the offchance we have a vig, should BooKitty come up town, please don't off me at night- it is to the town's benefit that I reveal my 'other' investigation first.

[The Fonz]

press forbid you from self protecting, you usually can. It is taking advantage of a Moderator mistake, but it works.

wtf? I gave my opinion and I will stick by it. I was pointing out that we have so little certainty about that Fonzes claim was VERY ill timed. We now have a powerrole outed, and since he didn't wait to try and find out his sanity his info could well be worse than useless.[/quote]

How the hell is it ill-timed? I can't know my sanity for sure until at least one of my investigatees is dead, and it's not in the town's interests to wait that long. Two different results is plenty.

[The Fonz]

How the hell is it ill-timed? I can't know my sanity for sure until at least one of my investigatees is dead, and it's not in the town's interests to wait that long. Two different results is plenty.

IF you are town (which I'm rather unsure about), there's no way you should be claiming until an investigatee is dead anyway and you therefore KNOW your sanity. Also IF you're town you've chucked away any chance of further investigations unless the doc protects you. Of course, if you're scum, you probably just picked up a helpful protection against any SKs hanging around...

That's ridiculous. For starters, doing that renders the investigation you had on that player useless. Secondly, the longer I wait, the more chance

I

get NKed before I have the chance to reveal anything, a risk I'm not willing to take. Thirdly, should I get run up (and replacing Head Honcho, that was not an insignificant possibility) and have to claim, I would look incredibly dodgy for not having claimed earlier, since I have a guilty and know I'm not paranoid.

[The Fonz]

If we were at LyLo, doing that would lose us the game.

Just sayin'.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and if the town is basically agreed on lynching me if BooKitty comes up town, there is absolutely no reason for the doc to protect me tonight. That's just stupid.

[The Fonz]

~~~~~~~~~

Votecount

~~~~~~~~~

As of Post 396.

Jenter Brolincani - 2 -

(Adel, Vollkan)

Adel - 1 -

(Jenter)

Not Voting - 7 - (Everybody Else)

With eight alive, it takes

five

to lynch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mod: Remember to change the thread title

As I think he had guessed, my previous innocent investigation was on ChronX. Got another on Vollkan last night.

[The Fonz]

Meh, I REALLY wished I'd managed to post earlier now. Obviously, we can't assume Jenter's innocence until everyone has a chance to counterclaim, but mason is a fairly suicidal fakeclaim.

I didn't like Jenter's actions. But tying yourself that closely to the probable scum over the claimed cop is a faintly ridiculous course of action for a scumbuddy. It seemed much more likely to arise from misguided conviction than as a scumtactic.

Also, the killing of Paradox, who Jenter had been tying to Adel, seems to me to incriminate the latter over the former.

My initial re-read (bear in mind I had the luxury of pretty much knowing Kitty scum) made me particularly suspicious of a) Vollkan and b) IH. The innocent on the former doesn't rule out him being GF of course, but it does mean he's clearly not the play for now. I will be voting Adel or an IH replacement today.

[The Fonz]

the other mason should

not

step forward, at least if we want to keep our doc. kill the scum and move on to the next day and victory. if we stick to our guns this will be a very easy game for us to win.

That's ridiculous. If another mason steps forward, we've found a guaranteed scum. That's worth the increased chance of the scum hitting the doc.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, if there is 'another' mason, THEY ABSOLUTELY SHOULD COUNTERCLAIM.

[The Fonz]

Vote:Adel

[The Fonz]

I could.

[The Fonz]

Seriously, can we just lynch Adel now?

[The Fonz]

Vollkan: I oppose you claiming. Also, why are you not voting Adel?

[The Fonz]

Adel... yeah... Do I have to go into this? Played odd when first joined, said the other mason should NOT claim in post 391, contradicts that in post 403, then creates some false "trap" excuse... Ask Vollkan, I do not take kindly to so called "Traps!"

Trapping is not scummy, Korlash.

I disagree. Suggesting something really scummy, then when pressed on it claiming it was a trap to see who followed you, is imho a pretty big scumtell.

[The Fonz]

Korlash innocent. More later.

[The Fonz]

Since Jenter and Guardian are the two remaining players I don't have innocents on, I'm not necessarily buying this. Waiting on Jenter however.

[The Fonz]

EBWOP: I forget Kison is still alive. Hmmm.

[The Fonz]

Guardian has every reason to fakeclaim there. If there is more than one scum left (very, very likely) then we're at LyLo.

[The Fonz]

Bollocks. Guardian is therefore scum, due to the fact that I don't have a Night Action. Guardian knew I was town yesterday, so he blatantly set up the NK to make me look bad.

No argument here by you.

Guardian, dude, there's no argument here from you either. His argument is 'I did not perform a night action last night, so Guardian is scum' to exactly the same extent that yours is 'I DID see him perform a night action, so HE is scum.' Neither of you needs an argument beyond the other having a contradictory claim to vote the other. This means the remaining town will have to rely on traditional day scumhunting to win the day. This doesn't faze me.

@Fonz, I almost wish you'd said you investigated me, then I would have a better idea of your alignment, and if you are a cop, which I *think* is likely, you'd have an innocent on me.

And I wanted to claim before you claimed your result, btw -- just I never checked mafia scum until this morning, when I started F&E day 4.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If you HAD, your claim looks stronger- but then, perhaps you didn't intend to, and are only saying it to look more town? AS I said, it'll come down, for me, to reading you both in isolation. I am DEEPLY uncomfortable with no night two action at all.

[The Fonz]

(Question to Fonz)

Was there a particular reason you investigated me last night?

Hunch.

[The Fonz]

Guardian didn't forget those pairs, he's assuming his own innocence in the same way you did.

Vote: Jenter

I'm going to trust my gut on this one. Guardian has made some bad arguments here, but I know from meta he's even more likely to get pissed off when he thinks what's happening is obvious and can't do anything about it than I am. Plus the whole 'INNOCENT mason' thing.

Also, I would like those with innocents on them to claim. No sense in a Kison claim, since he can't be scum.

[The Fonz]

Not so. You and ChronX is also a possibility, since he couldn't hammer Guardian when he's already voting him. The only possibility excluded is you + Kison, since I knew myself to be town anyway.

From an outsider's perspective (ie, assuming ANYONE could be lying, even if they did, say, out the mafia RB), any possibility in which Kison or I are scum with anyone but Guardian is out. Anything else remains possible. Also, why are you chiding me for being incautious with putting a vote on you, but not with anyone voting Guardian? It seems to me you thought it mistaken of the town to vote 'incautiously' when it was targetted at you.

[The Fonz]

Again, Guardian is speaking from the perspective that he 'knows' himself to be town.

unvote

[The Fonz]

Oh, you mean me. Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. He can't be scum

with Jenter.

He can be a guardian partner. So claims all round, please.

[The Fonz]

Well, basically, you just claimed, but it's largely to tie everyone down

now

. Don't forget, if Guardian is telling the truth, we have more investigative roles than the scum can kill in one night.

[The Fonz]

Yes. But if we lynch Jenter, and he comes up scum, Guardian is likely truthful. If we lynch ANYONE and they come up town, it's game over. So it's still best to commit everyone- then, if we don't lynch Guardian and he survives the night, no-one can claim they just happened to target that dead town player with a one-shot vig or whatever.

[The Fonz]

Remind me in future games to ask all claiming masons to reveal whether they can be sure of their buddy's alignment, even if they're not revealing who it is at that point. (Yes, I know Jenter's buddy died N0. But it was something i hadn't been doing in the past, and now realise the value of).

Also, that's a particularly good point Guardian. Care to explain?

[The Fonz]

Jenter, what is your exact role name?

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Guardian

I just don't believe the claim about not interpreting your own results. It doesn't make sense for a pro-town Guardian not to do that. Also 'i figured you were vanilla-' it's not impossible that you were setting up a doc claim, had vollkan not come up doc.

[The Fonz]

.......

and it makes sense for scum Guardian not to do that?

................

A scum guardian would have made his results up on the spot, and might not have had time to think through the implications of what he claimed to have seen.

Doc claim: thought you were vanilla= thought you were not a powerrole, doc is the last 'obvious' powerrole left.

[The Fonz]

Re: that.

Kison really hasn't done anything scummy all game. And everyone is saying I must be scum -- with him. Think about that. I think Kison is objectively very likely to be town.

My subjective opinion is that Kison is objectively very likely...

Kison also really doesn't make sense, he has played really townlike, and is v. unlikely to be scum.

Explain why.

Seriously, predicating your attack on me with Kison being scum is ludicrous. Kison has had so many opportunities in this game to support easy lynches, and hasn't. Really, Fonz/Korlash, if you think I am a good lynch because you think it is me-Kison, think again. That doesn't even make sense.

AS I believe has been addressed, the issue isn't 'Kison must be scum' it's 'Guardian is scum because of his claim, and the inconsistencies in it, etc, and from certain people's perspectives he must be Guardian's buddy.'

Sure, Jenter or ChronX could be scum with me. But that isn't the case. Why would I attack them?

WIFOM, and you know it.

Me not interpreting my results was very regrettable. Sorry.

Your not interpreting your results, if town, is not regrettable, but UNFORGIVABLE. When I replace in as an investigative role, the VERY FIRST thing I do is look at my predecessor's results, see if the investigatees are still alive, and if specifically tracker, who they targetted, and what can be gleaned from that. Instead, you came in, and in your first post, attacked the very player your results should have suggested most likely to be town. Can you not see why that appears to be almost as strong evidence as possible that your claim is baloney?

But Fonz, honestly, your logic about why I wouldn't interpret them correctly as scum is bullshit. If I was scum, I'd be

more

careful to have results that make sense and also to interpret them carefully. I'd discuss them with the other mafia at night, and make sure that tracker was a good claim or whatever.

THAT'S bullshit. If it were true, scum would never mess up their fakeclaims. Which they do reasonably often.

Look, Guardian, this goes to the heart of why some people get pissed off with your playstyle. You claim at the point in the game when it makes most sense for scum to do so, your claim doesn't add up, and you act like it's almost inconceivable that people could possibly disbelieve you. Then you seem to throw any old BS argument against the fan, in the hope one will stick.

With regard to Guardian/Jenter's claims and game balance:

Goon-RB-Scum Mason vs Cop/Doc/Tracker is reasonably balanced.
Goon-RB-GF vs Cop/Masons/Doc is also balanced.

So we can't make any assumptions about who is scum from game balance. What I would say is there is far more chance of GF if Guardian is scum than if Jenter is.

KorlasH: I really don't understand your ChronX vote. We KNOW one of Guardian and JB is scum, and we're almost certainly at LYLo. Looking at ANYTHING else right now can only be seen as an attempt to confuse the town.

Also, a big f-you to whoever requested prodding me whilst I was on V/LA.

[The Fonz]

There's no way it's GF-RB-Scum mason, that's ridiculously overpowered.

[The Fonz]

And for evidence of this last, Check out Mini 441 Flavourless Mafia, where the town had two masons, a cop, and a doc, plus there was an SK, and there was only a GF. (There was a paranoid cop- this ended up helping the town as well. Yet scum still won- guess who it was? )

[The Fonz]

Read your own 509, then DARE to accuse ME of trying to outguess the mod again.

It's a simple fact. Scummason-GF-RB is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered in a 12-player game. I'm pretty sure it's never happened before in a mini, and I'd bet my site membership that it isn't happening here. It would be extreme bastard moddery, and i'm not going to bet the game on the idea that we're being bastard modded.

If there's no GF-Scum mason combo, if Jenter is guilty, his only possible partners are you, and Kison. Only Kison has declined to hammer you, which means Kison can't be scum with anyone but you. So, from my POV, there isn't a single potential scumgroup which doesn't include Guardian.

[The Fonz]

Die, scum.

[The Fonz]

Not really. If you're town, you've only got yourself to blame for acting entirely unlike town.

Cos seriously, would you suggest than in my position, you wouldn't vote for the player who:

a) Claimed power at the time it had most benefit to scum to do so
b) Made a claim that didn't add up

IH targeted Bookitty night 1, and she targeted TCS.

Not useful now.

c) Would require there to be BOTH a scum mason AND a GF in a game that already has a mafia RB for there to be any chance of him not being scum?

Are you really telling me you think that's the wrong play?

[The Fonz]

Korlash, just a note, your 'Guardian shoulda waited' argument sucks. He should have claimed EARLIER, before i revealed my results. Now, Guardian might argue not unreasonably he didn't get on in time, but it's not provable.

I still think he's scum messing w/us btw- i mean, town wouldn't lie about their breadcrumb (the difference between 'i suspected you'd be town' and 'town is the only claim i'd have believed of you' is really significant).

[The Fonz]

I really liked playing with you guys in the brief time I had in this game. Well played by town.

The funny thing is, HH had targetted you N1. I have to confess I didn't quite understand what the heck was going on when I saw I was replacing a cop who'd had two different results and hadn't claimed.

Good game, hooray town. My first "live" win here at MS.

Jenter held up well under the pressure of the mafia-mason accusations. What a bad twist of fate to have lost his masonic brethren before anyone could post anything, and then linger under that cloud of suspicion all game, only to be alive at the end. His early play was a bit scummy, but he settled down and played cool calm and convincing at the end.

I think the turning point of the game was when Jenter pointed out that for Guardian to be telling the truth required GF-RB-Scum mason. That's an unprecedented level of scum power for a mini. Though I still don't get quite why Jenter was so set on disbelieving the claim.

That reminds me, I wanted to apologize for putting "innocent" mason, for the added confusion and suspicion on Jenter. I'll be sure to be more careful with my wording next time I mod (which will be very soon, a large normal).

It may not have been intended, but I don't think implying the possibility of a scum mason was unbalancing. It helped the scum, but I don't think we'd have had much of a game had it not.

[The Fonz]

I think the turning point of the game was when Jenter pointed out that for Guardian to be telling the truth required GF-RB-Scum mason. That's an unprecedented level of scum power for a mini. Though I still don't get quite why Jenter was so set on disbelieving the claim.

Um... for it to be true I had to be scum, which I wasn't?

I meant mine, not Guardian's.