Mini Normal 1874: Camping Trip Mafia (Game Over)

[BlackVoid]

Hi everyone! I read the first thirteen pages before I sent in my replace request. Going to catch up on the rest now.

@IAI, figured out the scumteam yet?

[BlackVoid]

sup nerd, nice job in open 661

Didn't realize you were still reading after I walled it up for two weeks! Hopefully, this one goes more smoothly.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, I've read the thread once. I'm going to ISO players again . So far I have strong townreads on TwoFace and mattblackguy, and weaker townreads on Nadpool, I Am Innocent, and massive and I'm not considering voting any of them today. If anyone disagrees or wants me to explain further on any of these reads, let me know. No one sticks out to me as particularly scummy so I'm going to ISO the remaining players before I put down a vote.

SensFan

- I thought the defense of Sickofit and attack on TwoFace was genuine enough but too little content to get a confident read. I need more reads from this slot which hopefully will come tonight. Specifically, a more concrete read on Fykus than "I don't buy the wagon."

KNPD

- I don't like how he townread Fykus and scumread Sickofit. It seemed like he had already decided upon replacing in to townread Fykus. What stops Fykus from being newb-scum? That actual reason for not wanting to lynch Fykus in 520 is pretty weak too. KNPD's scumread on sickofit is basically just a sheep of TwoFace's reasoning. "Not answering questions" and omgus" are weak reasons this late into the game. Regarding 516: who thought that you were ignoring TwoFace's case on Sickofit? No one ever mentioned that and it looks unnecessarily self-conscious.

Taking a break and I'll look over Fykus, ssbm_Kyouko, shannon, lucca261, Sickofit1138 tonight.

[BlackVoid]

You only have four votes on you.

I think it's a good idea to get claims from KNPD, and Sickofit as well. Both have hinted at PRs. This way, we'll have the information to figure out who's most likely lying out of these two and Fykus and assess the game. At this point with a claim and a couple more soft-claims, it benefits town more than scum to have clear information out in the open for scumhunting purposes.

[BlackVoid]

Keyen hasn't claimed anything. He just said "PR" which reads like he was trying to scare us away from lynching him without actually committing to a claim. I think it's much more helpful to make him claim. Same with sickofit.

[BlackVoid]

Went through the thread overnight and I have thoughts, but first a few questions:

@ssbm_kyouko

- What seems "off" about Nadpool? I've been townreading him for the most part because I agreed that the parts he highlighted about KNPD in 528 were scummy, and his four townreads in 554 were the exact same as mine. Before that, he didn't post much so I'd like to hear what I'm missing. Would also like your logic behind 300. There's no reason to believe that scum necessarily wouldn't put a partner in a townbloc. If you have meta of Nadpool to back this up, I'd appreciate links. This doesn't make sense with your 354 where you vote Fykus. If you thought Nadpool was scum who put Fykus in his townblock, why would you vote Fykus over Lucca on whom you had a stronger case?

@Fykus

- Can you go more in-depth into why you voted Keyen. Before your vote, you never mentioned him at all and it was more than two days till deadline. Would like your opinion of IAI's push on you as well. Also, can you link me to scumgames that you've played off-site?

@Sickofit

- Can you briefly explain your scumreads on massive and Matt, your townread on Lucca's slot, and the reason for your vote on Keyen who you hadn't mentioned at all before? I'd also like to know why you were so focused on making TwoFace answer your questions when you've been townreading him. You can gamesolve by pushing your scumreads regardless of whether he answers your questions. If you think he's town and tunneling, you could have just ignored him and focused elsewhere.

@Matt

- Walk me through your read progression between 43 and 64?

[BlackVoid]

How did you get Mattblack as TwoFace's most likely suspect? Sickofit1138 was the obvious one and I'm trying to decide between him and Fykus. Leaning towards Fykus who by the way should be claiming who he jailkept.

[BlackVoid]

As for who I jailed last night, it was shannon since I was scum reading her pretty hard yesterday. Seeing as a kill got through last regardless of my actions I'm less inclined to see shannon as scum today (for now at least).

Why would you JK a scumread when there are three scum remaining? The chances of a JK correctly blocking the scum who made the kill are ridiculously low.

The best way to use a JK in this situation is to protect your top townread. That way, you pretty much function as a doc which is a pretty powerful role.

[BlackVoid]

Hey Fykus - can you use snipping tool or screencapture to capture pages of your games on this torrent tracker? I only want a sample of maybe the first page or so for each of your two games.

[BlackVoid]

So fmpov, I think we should lynch the scummiest person, and so far I think shanon has been giving the weirdest vibes mainly because she's like, not really sounding genuine in her tone and that makes me feel like she's hiding something which is usually a characteristic of a mafia, so I'd like to lynch her, however I feel like that twoface vs sick fight was pretty town versus town which I see a lot and I am prtty sure that us doubling down to lynch sick after twoface flipping town doesn't really mean sick is scum, so I think people pushing it are pretty suspicious

It's not just that TwoFace flipped town but that he was nightkilled which makes it more likely scum wanted to get rid of him because he was right. The last time I played with him, he tunneled scum all of D1 and the scum killed him N1. I'm uncertain on sickofit but am definitely don't think it's unreasonable for people to suspect him because of TwoFace's flip. But independent of TwoFace's flip, what of sickofit's play do you townread?

I can see where you are coming from with regard to shannon and I thought some of her posting looked ingenuine as well. Mind linking the posts that caught your eye? I want to see if we're looking at the same thing.

[BlackVoid]

Nadpool would like to hear Shannon and ssbm's current reads on each other.

You suspect that they are partners?

[BlackVoid]

Nope, town. But while you are here, what are your reads/thoughts on the game?

[BlackVoid]

I understand that killing TwoFace would paint a target on the scum. But all the same, he has a very distinctive playstyle. He's very, very stubborn. He's also obvtown. So, dealing with suspicion from him isn't going to be easy. Mini 1843 is the game I was referencing earlier where the scum he was tunneling all of D1 (Sotty7) killed him N1. I think it's very plausible for scum to kill him and play it off as nightkill wifom. There's no guarantee that town would lynch sickofit. It's possible that we'd talk ourselves out of it. With TwoFace alive on the other hand, he'd be constantly reminding everyone to lynch sickofit and I think that would make his lynch more likely. You are welcome to read the game I linked and comment on whether you think Sotty7 was "that bad" because I thought she was otherwise quite competent. The point is scum have done it before. In fact, when I brought up suspicion of Sotty7 the following day, her partner immediately tried to dismiss the TwoFace kill as a framejob and pushed me for it. By the way, TwoFace was killed over an outed mason in that game.

I mean, I was one of the tunnellees, and either (a) I'm not scum so Twoface wasn't right or (b) you have to think I'm so bad that I'd let my team basically out me by killing Twoface. Which is it?

Those aren't the only options though so I don't get why you are presenting them as this false dichotomy. I think it's plausible that you are town and Sickofit is scum and killed TwoFace. I think it's also plausible you are scum and sickofit is town and you killed him because people might disregard his reads if he was wrong on sickofit and we lynched sickofit first. I haven't ruled out you and sickofit being a team together although that's not my primary theory.

In Musical mafia, when I got killed, you didn't take my reads into consideration and went after Kairal anyways. So, why would you expect that a TwoFace kill means that town would immediately be looking at you and Sickofit?

[BlackVoid]

@massive - What happened to your D1 scumread on shannon? In fact, you voted her because of a post on page two that wasn't even scummy to begin with and left your vote there for the entirety of D1. Your issue with my predecessor LUV doesn't make sense to me. LUV suspected Lucca because the latter was always just catching up and was rarely ever playing the game in real time and interacting with other players spontaneously. I thought that was a reasonable suspicion. Instead you compared Lucca with Nadpool and asked why LUV wasn't suspicious of Nadpool for doing the same thing. Except Nadpool's and Lucca's play were not similar at all. While I could see Lucca as scum trying to float under the radar by making catchup posts, Nadpool has been a lot more blatant about not contributing anything and there's much less scum motivation in his style of play as opposed to Lucca's. Moving onto D2, I don't like how you voted Fykus for playing an "obvious newbscum" game whereas you mostly ignored the rise and fall of the Fykus wagon D1. What changed your mind? If he was such obvious newbscum, why did you need IAI to convince you to join the wagon in 407?

[BlackVoid]

Is that because of the shannon suspicion or defense of you?

[BlackVoid]

@IAI - I actually thought sickofit's point was a good one. Jupiter jumping in and telling us not to lynch sickofit who's the most likely lynch today reads as a newbie whiteknighting someone he knows is town and wants the cred. I don't really understand why he was dismissing sickofit as town and his argument with TwoFace as TvT. It gives me the impression he knows we're wrong and feels compelled to say that. So, I'm still on the fence on sickofit. Mind going over your reasons for scumreading him? I also would like your thoughts on massive. His play has been very different from his play in Musical mafia. He doesn't seem as interested and engaged in the game or made any convincing pushes on anyone so far.

@JupiterCrush - Still want an explanation for your sickofit townread and more reads and thoughts on other players.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, but why town vs town? Why not town vs scum? How do you differentiate between the two anyways?

[BlackVoid]

@IAI, I did notice his soft-claim earlier but forgot about it until now. You're right, with two flipped PRs and a soft claim, it's weird that he never comments on the third PR at all. I agree that at least one of them if not both are scum and we should lynch between the two.

VOTE: sickofit1138 (With IAI, Matt, Nadpool, and me, that's L-2)

I want a claim but no one end the day until we get a replacement for ssbm and Sensfan either shows up or gets replaced. I don't want to deprive the day of information.

I also want to do a lot more analysis because I don't have many confident scumreads right now and would like to at least be confident I've figured the scumteam before we go to night.

[BlackVoid]

@massive, no I don't think hoping that a player is town is a fake thing to say to someone you've played with before. Read the first sentence of my ISO in Musical Mafia. Have you never seen anyone say that before as town? Nadpool's 528 was actually good. It highlighted some of the weird feelings I had from KNPD's posting. I talked about this already D1. I don't think it was entirely unreasonable for shannon to like that post. With that said, I'm going back and forth on shannon myself.

Regarding LUV, I know he said Lucca was "not interacting with people or gamesolving" but if you take it in context, he mentioned that Lucca doing exclusively catchup posts without interacting with people was scummy. You quoted the entirety of his post 331 so why are you taking that second sentence out of context? The behaviors LUV described in 331 as a whole aren't things that Nadpool was doing. By "having an issue" with LUV, I mean being suspicious of him. If you weren't suspicious, you wouldn't have said "I'll be watching whoever replaces Lil Uzi though."

@Sensfan, what you are missing is that two PRs are dead already and we have one PR claim from Fykus and one soft-claim from sickofit. Odds are overwhelming that at least one of them is scum. On the small chance that they are both town, we'd still be better off having sickofit's claim out in the open so we can evaluate the setup as a whole. All his "soft-claim" does is make people hesitate to lynch him while letting scum know that he's a likely PR if he's town. Having it all out in the open allows us to do setup-spec and solve the game. I don't understand why you have sickofit as town. Apparently, you think he's a bad player. But bad players can draw scum too. Why isn't he bad scum. What town motivation specifically do you see in his play?

[BlackVoid]

Actually tracker is a role that gets stronger the longer it survives. Late in the game if there's only one scum, it pretty much functions as a cop. So, having a tracker and a backup makes it likely that at least one of them makes it to late game if the players in those roles play their cards right. So, basically scum need to eliminate them both or they wind up with effectively a cop mid-to-late game. So, I think that's quite a bit of power and reason to believe at least one of the other two claimed PRs are fake.

Now I understand that sickofit's claim may not mean anything. But I'm just not willing to let him get away with dropping a soft-claim and being vague about it. If he really is as chaotic as you say, then isn't it better to demand he out his claim and decide for ourselves whether we believe it in context of all other claims? Also, question for you: if Sickofit is scum, how do you expect to catch him? Right now, you are dismissing his play as not putting anything past him but that just means he should be a nullread, not a townread. Besides him, what other reads do you have? Who would you prefer we lynched then?

[BlackVoid]

Night one action and results please.

[BlackVoid]

So, when Fykus claimed to have Jailkept Shannon, why didn't you say anything?

Why would you target ssbm anyways? You never mentioned him as a townread and there were several other people that you said were town.

[BlackVoid]

@massive - While I think that massive's case was good, I agree that shannon's vote on KNPD was quite sudden so I do want to hear more detailed reasoning from her. Fair enough on the difference between saying "I hope we're both town" vs "I hope you are town." I suppose your scumread on Shannon is plausible.

I still found it rather odd that you voted her based on post on page two and never changed the vote for the entirety of the day nor pushed hard on the read. Is there a reason you are playing so differently from Musical mafia? I remember you being a lot more engaged and interested in that game. You were also pushing your scumreads a lot - even D1, you pushed Kairal, AJ, and MDS a lot but here, you seem a lot more laid-back and disinterested.

The other thing I found suspicious was you tying your alignment to sickofit. You gave a dichotomy and asked whether it's more likely you are town or whether you'd make a kill that gives away the scumteam. Why didn't you think it was reasonable for me to think sickofit was town and you scum? Even if TwoFace is wrong about sickofit, he could still be right about you. Anyways, this isn't very strong now because sickofit is 99% likely scum here but that pinged me.

[BlackVoid]

Hi Jaack! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the rest of the playerlist.

I think more likely than not both sickofit and Fykus are scum. They are stalling and seem disinterested in the game. Fykus checked in to a different game on the evening of the twelfth but didn't post here and prod-dodged around 24 hours ago and didn't come back. Sickofit seems resigned to a lynch as well. So, I think we've got two easy scum lynches. The real challenge is going to figuring out who's the last scum.

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack, I'm townreading IAI and Matt as well but I've been struggling to get a solid read on massive. What am I missing? Wouldn't mind hearing what your reservations with Matt are either. I'm not sure I follow your read on me. I'm town because I keep saying I'm town?

[BlackVoid]

Sensfan's last post in this game was yesterday morning where he was defending sickofit right before the claim. He's been online and posting for most of the day today and hasn't commented on the claim and subsequent posting. I think the chances of his being scum are very high.

[BlackVoid]

Even when I was talking to him yesterday, I didn't get the feeling he was actually trying to read sickofit. It was mostly, "sickofit is a bad player so the usual scumtells don't apply to him." I never got the sense he was trying to read him though and it's really weird that he stopped posting right after the claim and doesn't show up here today. That's pretty much the definition of active lurking - not posting when major events occur so that you can assess everyone's else reactions and then take stances that'll help you blend in.

I'm actually slightly paranoid that sickofit will flip town and that Sensfan wants to just let the wagon happen. But then I look at all the evidence and I don't think he is. He apparently caught Fykus lying but never votes him, misses that Fykus visited someone contrary to his results, the TwoFace kill points to him, his watcher claim in 661 felt fake on a gut level.

I agree that if Sens was partnered with sickofit, he would try a little harder to either bus or derail the wagon rather than wait it out. But Sens has been defending sickofit all game and I could see it as scum just having his partner's back. Going to look over the two of them in ISO.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I don't buy that sickofit just happens to watch ssbm_kyouko (who was not even his strongest townread) and apparently just happens to see Fykus the other player on the table for a lynch visit ssbm. The odds of that are pretty low and combined with everything else, pretty sure he's scum.

On the interactions between sensfan and sickofit, there was a pretty blatant chainsaw at the beginning where sensfan starts out pushing TwoFace. I'm going to look over some of his scumgames to see if he defends his partners.

I'm not sure what Sensfan means by not "buying the Fykus wagon." He doesn't elaborate on what his read on Fykus is. Thinking that people who don't lynch PR claims are dumb is something he legitimately believes but I don't get why he complains about it when he wasn't even scumreading Fykus in the first place. Complaining that we didn't lynch scum D1 (657) when he ended the day not voting anyone doesn't make any sense to me.

@Matt, yeah that's a good point. I recently completed a game where a scum player prod-dodged by posting literally once every 48 hours and I hadn't even noticed. I do think it's alignment-indicative. Looking over Sensfan's last completed game shows that he's a lot more invested in the game as town.

[BlackVoid]

Had to go far back in time to look at Sensfan's scumplay but glancing through several of Sensfan's games, he pretty much busses nearly all the time. I don't have a lot more time right now but if someone wants to do a more exhaustive search, here's a link where he lists all his completed games, a few more completed scumgames and a few more games after those. I wouldn't rule him out being partners with sickofit because I hate his play and I don't think he's legitimately scumhunting but just want to make a note for people to use at their discretion in case I wind up dead tonight.

[BlackVoid]

Was waiting for Fykus to post links to the torrent site but he hasn't posted in a while and I'm impatient so I want to point out that his assumption that there are only two scum could be a townslip. He did only play a newbie game on the site where there are two scum. However, I think it's somewhat weird that if he plays a nine-player game with two scum, he'd assume that a thirteen player game also has two scum. One possibility that came to mind was that there are two scum + a traitor which would make Fykus's assumption a scumslip. Overall, he clearly is playing nothing like his newbie town-game I read through. If he does flip scum, be aware of the traitor possibility.

[BlackVoid]

I went through the newbie game he just completed to see how he treated the JK claim and here's what he said:

Unfortunately im just a vanilla townie. Had i been cop i would have tracked grey. So if you jailed nydus that means hes either scum or a target of scum or maybe mafia had a roleblocker that used their action and maybe pep never sent in a kill?

So, he knows that if there's no kill, then it's possible that the person jailed could be a target of scum and wouldn't 100% determine if that player is scum or not like he says here:

Sorry, I was under the impression that there were only 2 scum players in these games? I figured by jailing a suspected scum I could see whether or not it stopped a kill from happening which would 100% determine if that person was scum or not. I'll adjust this strategy for night 2 and jail my top town read instead (won't reveal who it is, hopefully scum will waste a shot on them).

So, yeah I think you are right. He's pretending to be newbier than he is. I didn't worry about it too much at first because he did play up the newbie-card in his newbie towngame but his play there was very, very involved and passionate and the difference to here is quite stark.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so here's where I'm at:

IAI is a townread I'll take to the bank. Matt is a close second. Never played with him before so there's mild hesitation. Re-evaluate at lylo if he gets there.

Sickofit and Fykus as scum.

The third scum would be between massive, sensfan, shannon, Jupiter/Lucca, Jaack/ssbm, and nadpool.

Will ISO all six of them tomorrow and post my thoughts on who is the most likely one by which time, hopefully sickofit, Fykus, and sensfan have time to post final thoughts for today, and then I'm ready to lynch.

Void, how do you manage to blend in when you're scum? Your townplay is such obvious Town it seems like it'd be hard to replicate.

In the two scumgames I've played on this site, the town was terrible so I didn't really have to do anything. When I face a competent town, I give it my best shot but it's hard to stay motivated as scum because the puzzle-solving aspect is my favorite part of the game.

A question for you which might help me solidify my read: do you prefer playing town or scum? How many scumgames have you played and what percentage of them did you win?

[BlackVoid]

We were talking about sickofit right before he claimed. Why did you stop posting and never comment on it despite you posting in a different game yesterday? I'd have thought the claim is a pretty major thing to comment on.

[BlackVoid]

I'm still thinking Fykus is our best lynch today after Jupiter claims. In addition to all the other evidence against him, I have a hard time seeing his play on D2 as coming from a townie. If he was town, scum essentially faked a guilty on him by contradicting his claim of Jailkeeping Shannon. I'd expect town to be all over that and call out sickofit's night actions as bullshit. Instead, he stalled, posted in other games, prod-dodged, and finally after a long wait grudgingly voted sickofit and didn't even react to sickofit's claim that he was found visiting ssbm/Jaack.

There's also the fact that he's a lot less active here than in his newbie game which as Matt pointed out was something Fykus admitted to doing as scum.

I've looked over D1 interactive tells between sickofit and everyone else and funnily enough, Fykus comes off as the worst. It looks like sickofit was weakly bussing him and Fykus mostly ignored sickofit possibly because the latter was a power role.

There's one other thing I want people's opinion on. I had a tinfoil theory that Lucca/Jupiter was scum and they were using the word "

weird

" as a code for "bus me now." Because Lucca started out townreading sickofit and precisely

after

the first time he uses the bolded word "weird," Lucca changes his stance and starts pushing him. But Lucca/Jupiter doesn't really fit in with Fykus especially after that end-of-day "don't jail me" request.

Anyways, he should claim and let's take our time figuring out the game even if we're just going to lynch Fykus. There's very little content D1 and it's going to be hard to find the final scum if we rush this. Specifically, I'd like to see Sensfan actually catch up with the game, offering and pushing reads. I wouldn't mind massive and Nadpool taking a more active role today either. I'll be looking through D1 and posting analysis as well.

[BlackVoid]

There's one other thing I want people's opinion on. I had a tinfoil theory that Lucca/Jupiter was scum and they were using the word "weird" as a code for "bus me now." Because Lucca started out townreading sickofit and precisely after the first time he uses the bolded word "weird," Lucca changes his stance and starts pushing him. But Lucca/Jupiter doesn't really fit in with Fykus especially after that end-of-day "don't jail me" request.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69804 - I think the weird thing was a nod to this game where Lucca kept bolding weird.

Not saying that Lucca/Jupiter can't be scum, because I honestly think they are very likely to be scum. Especially with how Jupiter initially tried to push the lynch off of Sick at the end of day 2.

Yeah, I know it was a reference to that game. Was just wondering if they were using it as some kind of code though.

[BlackVoid]

@ Jupiter, yeah I think you should claim. Anytime we decide whether or not to out a claim we're always weighing in whether keeping scum in the dark is of higher value than town having additional information to scumhunt. I usually tend to prefer the latter and especially in this case, I just want as much information out in the open as possible so we can find and lynch the last scum. I don't really care for wifom. Prefer transparency at this point.

[BlackVoid]

I meant with Fykus's scumflip which I'm expecting, there's one more. I agree that there are two more total. Also, claim please.

[BlackVoid]

And I really don't have a lot of patience for people playing coy around claims especially after Cloudkicker in Mini 1843. I hate the "oh, I have a role but I won't say what it is and am going to spend several posts dancing around it to wifom the scum." The best thing you can do is to lay it out on the table so the rest of us can evaluate whether it's believable.

[BlackVoid]

I'm done trying to convince you why it's pro-town to claim. More interested in convincing everyone else to force you to claim or die.

[BlackVoid]

Unlike BV I am not in agreement that we send a bunch of votes your way to force you to claim.

I'm just concerned about the miniscule chance Fykus is actually town and Jupiter tried to send in the kill and I don't want people to just be able to decline to claim and get away with it.

But Fykus is most likely just scum and Jupiter isn't his partner so I'll drop it if you really don't want to press the issue.

Down to lynch Fykus but don't end the day for a week or so. Need to re-read and Sensfan needs to show up.

[BlackVoid]

If you think he's scum why are you telling him what roles would be scumclaims? I'd rather he just claim and then we talk about what each claim would mean.

[BlackVoid]

Thanks for claiming without having to make it a tedious process, very much appreciate it.

Do you get told when your bulletproof is used up? Also, is the bulletproof a passive modifier that protects you the first time you are shot or is it something you actively have to use?

[BlackVoid]

How did you think that with Fykus's jailkeeper claim and knowledge that sickofit was a roleblocker that they could both be town?

Why would you propose that if there's a bodyguard in the game, that they should guard Fykus when your intention was to doc him?

i think sick gave up, and i'd like to keep him alive and lynch outside of sick because at this point we'd get more information.

VOTE: sensfan

Actually, scratch that, I just realized sick could be a mafia PR, so let's lynch him

VOTE: sick

How is this something you "just" realized if you knew all along that he was a roleblocker?

[BlackVoid]

Alright I'm going to claim because I'm not sure what to do with this new info. BV, and Inno help me out.

I'm doctor.

And yes I know I'm dead tonight now

I buy this claim. This is the only one of the three outed claims I buy completely.

[BlackVoid]

@Jupiter, answer the questions in my 812 please.

[BlackVoid]

Thanks for claiming without having to make it a tedious process, very much appreciate it.

Do you get told when your bulletproof is used up? Also, is the bulletproof a passive modifier that protects you the first time you are shot or is it something you actively have to use?

why does this information matter? does it not only help scum in knowing?

No it doesn't. All of that is information that'll help me decide whether I believe your claim.

[BlackVoid]

Jupiter feels like he's being honest here though.

But Joat with a protective ability, and a doctor?

In a way his story does make sense. Although I think bulletproof as part of a JOAT ability is really weird. Don't think I've seen that before.

[BlackVoid]

why does me telling you whether my bp is permanent or 1 shot determine whether or not you'll believe my claim? i find that kind of bs, and I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Matt/blackvoid as a team? I legit don't believe matt's doc claim even though I was town reading him hard, I'm VERY skeptical of having 2 docs in a game, but I wouldn't put it past the mods because I have seen a game where I was a backup protective so we ended up with 2 bodyguards.

Haha.

Because the specific details of your claim are what we use to figure out whether it actually fits or whether you are faking it.

Your constant insistence that only scum want to know that information every time you are probed for a detail about your role is frustrating.

[BlackVoid]

We have several claims out at this point. I'd like to hear opinions on whether now is a good time to mass claim. We've already got Matt as an outed doc, possibly Jupiter as an outed JOAT. Getting the rest of the setup into the open will help us figure out what is is with minimal benefit to scum.

[BlackVoid]

Why would Matt even claim Doc at this point when he's being universally townread and a doc claim means that if he doesn't die fairly soon, his continued survival will be suspicious?

You I'm unsure of. Fykus is pretty much guaranteed scum and we're lynching him after we hear from Sensfan and massive.

[BlackVoid]

Jupiter is probably actually town unless there's another PR. Can't see Tracker/Backup Tracker/Doc being the only town PRs in a game where scum have a roleblocker. I'm strongly leaning towards there being a fourth.

[BlackVoid]

By the way, if anyone else is a PR, they should claim because that means Fykus/Jupiter is the team and it's pretty much game over.

Failing that, I'd say Matt is conf-town, IAI is most likely conf-town as I think scum shot him N2. Jupiter is probably town for that PR claim but I hate how weird it is and the ambiguity. The resemblance to Cloud in Mini 1843 is just way too much for me to just dismiss it entirely but I think his story adds up in a way and I don't think he's scum with Fykus so I'll hesitatingly say he should be outside the POE pool.

That leaves a pool of five (shannon, Jaack, Nadpool, massive, and sensfan). I think we're most likely looking at Sensfan as the remaining scum but I do want to go over them all just to be safe.

[BlackVoid]

@Matt - you don't have massive on your list. What are your thoughts about him?

[BlackVoid]

After we lynch Fykus today, assuming the kill goes through, we'll be left with eight players and one scum. That's two mislynches available + a no lynch. Third mislynch loses the game.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, I've changed my mind about wanting to slow down the game. I'll obviously be alive tomorrow to figure out the game, and there isn't much we can get from Sensfan today that we won't get tomorrow given Fykus is pretty much confirmed scum. So, might as well lynch Fykus and get on with it. I'll vote him once everyone checks in and Matt posts last thoughts.

@Matt, I haven't ruled out the scum distancing from Shannon. I'm going to have a look at her ISO and discuss in a bit.

@Mod - do you offer accelerated nights if everyone PMs you for one?

[BlackVoid]

Yeah sure, I'll hold off on voting until we're done.

[BlackVoid]

Actually I'm going to look through the whole game tonight for interactive tells with those five players and I'd appreciate your feedback on them.

[BlackVoid]

That's a good point. Sickofit was the roleblocker though.

[BlackVoid]

One thing that gives me pause about Sensfan is that I doubt both sickofit's partners immediately chainsawed him by pushing TwoFace.

[BlackVoid]

@Matt, I haven't ruled out the scum distancing from Shannon. I'm going to have a look at her ISO and discuss in a bit.

I just don't see Fykus bussing Shannon that hard on day 1 if they were scumbuddies. Just look at how reluctant he was to bus Sick.

Fykus tied shannon to at least two people (TwoFace and KNPD) and called them her scumpartners. That's something I see newbie scum do with their partners (tie them to a townie so that if the partner flips, they can try to push that townie and if the townie flips, they don't have to push the partner anymore).

[BlackVoid]

You were partners with scum!shannon right? What do you think of her play compared to that game?

Hard to tell. She doesn't have any obvious indicators like activity and actually prefers playing scum. I do remember us planning to distance/bus but she could never really follow through on bussing me. She distanced but only voted town and eventually found reasons to not push me even after initially calling me scum.

---

Shannon

- My early game concerns with Shannon are mostly nebulous gut vibes. I didn't like the self-focus in 149, asking TwoFace and sickofit to simmer down (which she has motive to do if she were scum with sickofit), and the jump on Matt in 155 given Sensfan said a similar thing "lecturing" TwoFace and Shannon didn't call him out on that. Shannon's early game scumread of sickofit is a little confusing to me. She votes sickofit because she apparently hates fake-claimers but doesn't seem to mind switching first to Matt for something Sensfan also did and then immediately switching to Lucca for which she doesn't provide a reason. I like 207 and 209 especially as I remember her being unwilling to flat-out bus when we were scum together although she distanced plenty.

Nadpool

- I think sickofit's 226 is a minor point towards Nadpool as town. Sickofit has twice tried to make other people look guilty by tying them to Fykus. First with Matt in 213 and then with TwoFace in 440, 443, 450, 453. So the fact that he tried to make Nadpool look scummy for townreading Fykus is a small towntell. Granted, it could just be a case of Nadpool having polar opposite reads to sickofit and he didn't push Nadpool as much as he did Matt and Fykus so this isn't super strong.

[BlackVoid]

@Nadpool, why were you townreading Fykus in 223? When asked, you responded in 281 by quoting Fykus's 241 which happened after the point you townread him.

[BlackVoid]

Shannon's 301 is another case of tying scum to town:

In retrospect: This particular interaction looks a bit off, like perhaps these two are both scum, and distancing. Strategy could be to divide town between their two camps, so we eventually compromise on some other player.

In what world did it look as though TwoFace and sickofit were partnered together? You did the same thing when we were scum together blatantly tying me to townies (like Ser Arthur Dayne for instance).

[BlackVoid]

Show me an example where you did that with a partner.

[BlackVoid]

Ok so after having a read through again, I noticed in #251 Shannon sticks up for Twoface re: the tunneling thing but then in #301 she starts lightly putting some pressure on him again. Its not much to go on, but

it could potentially be the signs of a scum team here.

Apologies for not knowing how to link post numbers properly (youll have to go back through manually if you want to take a look).

VOTE: Shannon

Here's Fykus tying Shannon to TwoFace.

Just to recap:

Shannon was saying that TwoFace and Sickofit are partnered. (Tied scum to town)
Fykus is saying that TwoFace and Shannon as well as KNPD and Shannon are partnered. (Scum tied Shannon to two town)
Sickofit was trying to make TwoFace look suspicious for not jumping onto the Fykus wagon.

My theory is that scum were all distancing/bussing and trying to make townies look suspicious through association.

Two other things that stick out: #1: what on earth made shannon believe that the TwoFace kill pointed towards Matt? It was incredibly obvious that TwoFace's suspects were sickofit, with massive a close second. #2: Fykus suspected Shannon D1 but "jailed" her and then said that the kill going through lessened his suspicion of her. That looked like a rather pre-planned way to back off of each other D2 which is when I figured the scumteam cut back on bussing after a discussion in the scum PT.

[BlackVoid]

Oh okay, I get it now. TwoFace's latest suspicion was you. She did say she'd also accept votes on sickofit. I'd say she's more likely scum than Sensfan based on interactions but I wish Sensfan would just show up and post stuff.

[BlackVoid]

Awkwardly, Fykus's behavious in ISO is also consistent with his claim. He claimed JK early, and has stuck with it. I think Sick's scum flip and his claim about what Fykus did is a point in Fykus' favour too. In 750 Fykus gives his top three town reads (BV, Jupiter, IAI). Jupiter asks Fykus not to jail him or BV.
Fykus claimed his JK on Jupiter (772) before Jupiter claimed to have docced him in return (809).

I'm not sure how you are drawing this conclusion. "He claimed JK early and stuck with it?" What do you expect scum to do? Fake-claim and then change it up to something else?

Sickofit could either be bussing Fykus or trying to get him lynched. If it was the latter, I think he'd be trying a bit harder. The biggest reason though is Fykus's reaction isn't that of a townie who had a result faked on him by scum. The stalling and prod-dodging makes no sense.

I think IAI was the one targeted for a nightkill. I think Fykus is scum and doesn't actually have a JK ability. I think Jupiter blew his doc ability protecting scum. There's no reason for Matt to fake-claim doc at the time he did so he's town. Between Jupiter and Fykus, I agree that Fykus looks much worse and that Jupiter's story is more consistent.

If you are arguing that both are town, you are either saying Matt is scum in which case explain why he would claim at the time he did, or you are saying that we have a tracker, backup tracker, JK, doc, and a JOAT consisting of a 1-shot doc, 1-shot BP, and a 1-shot rolecop. That's absurd especially for a normal game.

[BlackVoid]

Let's assume that neither of us has special knowledge

I pointed out why Fykus has to be scum but on this: My point is that for someone without special knowledge, it's a stretch to believe TwoFace and sickofit were scum together. You say the way they treated each other in a hyper-aggressive way is something you would do as scum. I don't buy it. You certainly didn't do that with me in our scumgame even when I suggested distancing. If I'm wrong, then show me a different example where you treated your partner the way sickofit and TwoFace treated each other.

[BlackVoid]

It looked like they were really aggro at each other, a bit tooo aggro, like it was planned. That's something I'd do, so I look for that behaviour in others even if it seems unlikely.

You specifically said though that this behavior is something you would do as scum. Why would you say that if you haven't actually done it? Because if you haven't, then you have no basis for thinking that TwoFace + sickofit team was plausible.

[BlackVoid]

Because your play was so far outside what's optimal and good town play that I'm very hesitant to set you aside as town even though setup spec points to you being town.

First off, you rolecopped sickofit because you suspected him apparently. Then pretended that you were townreading him and didn't offer any reasons why. That made it look as though you were scum and knew he was town because he wasn't part of your scum thread. Then sickofit correctly called you out on it. That made him look like he was actually town scumhunting you. Essentially you gave scum an excuse to make legitimate pushes and look town doing so.

Secondly, you had role results on sickofit showing he was a roleblocker. Fykus claimed Jailkeeper. The likelihood of both those roles being town is pretty small and overpowers town a lot. Yet, you townread them both because you don't seem experienced with game balance on forums (assuming you are town).

Thirdly, he claimed watcher and you knew he was scum. Your response was to vote Sensfan and keep confirmed scum alive. Then you changed your mind and suddenly realized that he could be a mafia PR (but you had actually known this all along so how was this a sudden realization?)

Then there's the fact that trying to get you to honestly claim your role with explicit details about every aspect of it leads to you getting defensive and claiming that only scum have motivation to ask for it. You remind me of a player who IAI and I were talking about who as scum stalled and delayed his claim forever, then insisted that anyone who kept asking him to claim had scum motive to do so. That's not how it works. The reason town want your role out in the open is so we can assess how it fits in the setup.

You still haven't answered my questions about whether your 1-shot BP is passive or something that you actively have to use. I still think the role overall is weird which is why I'm hesitating to read you as town.

One final thing - if you are town and lying about any part of your role, know that I will push heavily for your lynch at some point or the other. This is not a good idea in any sense and you better not lose us the game because you think "wifoming scum" has any value. So, I'll ask once again, if you lied before, now is your chance to put everything out on the table.

With that said, I still think Fykus is scum and am looking forward to hearing what Jaack has to say.

[BlackVoid]

Please don't tell me you played on epic mafia before. I'll probably avoid anyone else from that site from this point on if you are.

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack, I actually agree with some of your points on Jupiter. Specifically, if he's well-versed enough on game balance to suspect Matt's claim, then he should also have thought one of Sickofit/Fykus were scum. I wrote it off as him just being a newbie and not knowing game balance but it's inconsistent with his immediate jump on Matt.

I'm not sure what to make of his trying to keep sickofit alive even after he was confirmed scum. Looks like a ridiculously ballsy play for scum to do. I fully agree with your point #4. I wouldn't rule out town doing it but it does seem so much like scum trying to out Fykus's targets. Why would he want Fykus to out his targets anyways if he was town? If Jupiter really is scum, I don't see why he would do the kill as opposed to letting his partner do it unless the partner is also listed in the top three JK targets which narrows it down to just me or IAI.

What are your thoughts on Fykus's reaction to sickofit saying that he visited ssbm? That's pretty damning to me because I'd expect 99% of the time, town would just see that, call it bs and vote sickofit. But Fykus really tried to stall it out as long as possible and we know it wasn't because he didn't have time to log onto the site because he did have time to post in a recently completed game, ask for the scum PT and keep checking in until it was posted. During this time, he prod-dodged here and I find it hard to believe that he completely missed that sickofit had an apparently incriminating result on him.

I agree that Fykus/Jupiter interactions don't feel that much like scum-scum to me. However, I think sickofit and Fykus look very much like a team. Fykus's opening move was to chainsaw sickofit. Sickofit's end of day insistence that TwoFace take a stance on the Fykus wagon looks like him trying to make TwoFace look guilty by association. Sick also puts Fykus at L-1 and immediately unvotes. Fykus never pushes sickofit which is consistent with the latter's roleblocker claim and Fykus not wanting to bus. From the rest of their interactions, I don't see anything that precludes them being partners. Mind going over what I'm missing? Can you also give me your thoughts on how you think Lucca/Sickofit fit in as a team?

[BlackVoid]

But the more I've thought about it, the more I realize that Jupiter needs fykus alive as long as possible to avoid getting lynched. I mean, if fykus gets lynched and flips town, Jupiter should and will be powerlynched the following day. Keeping fykus alive prevents that from happening. I feel like Jupiter is pushing for an easy mislynch outside the claims in order to survive an extra day (which is kinda making me think sensfan is town now, but I'm less sure of that).

About this point - Jupiter was trying to keep Fykus alive even before he (Jupiter) claimed. Except before the claim, it wasn't a Jupiter/Fykus dichotomy at all so there's no reason for him as scum to try to keep Fykus alive.

[BlackVoid]

I knew sick was 100% scum after claiming watcher, but I couldn't state that without outting myself, so I knew that keeping sick alive and hunting for other scum when we have lynches available was something I thought was a good idea at the time

I don't get this bit. There was enough pressure on sickofit that you didn't need to out in order to get him lynched. You could have just said he was scummy and voted him.

Fair enough on forgetting his role. That was the only plausible explanation and I wanted to see if you would say that.

[BlackVoid]

@Jupiter, can you do me a huge favor and paraphrase your entire role PM in your own words? Include all information about active/passive abilities and such. Don't leave out anything.

[BlackVoid]

I Feel like we're being hornswoggled.

I feel like BlackVoid is making too many connections that depend on Fykus absolutely flipping scum. (Last post was good though and expounded a LOT of why I'm going to vote Jupiter though.)

VOTE: Jupiter

Can you expand a bit on who is doing the hornswoggling? What's your read on Fykus? Give us more content. Who's Jupiter's partner?

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack - I have a somewhat different perspective here. I think Sickofit didn't really care to push Fykus very much because either way, it's scum lynch and he wasn't particularly invested in the outcome - it doesn't matter which of them was lynched first. However if Fykus was town, I think he'd do everything he can to nail one more mislynch before he goes down and put his team in a better position. Look at it this way - if Fykus was a town Jailkeeper and sickofit was a mafia roleblocker, there's a LOT of motivation to eliminate Fykus so that sickofit can use his roleblock AND Fykus doesn't have a way to potentially catch scum or protect a universal townread. Letting the town JK have another night with the mafia RB gone is pretty bad for scum. So I think the lack of effort actually points

towards

them being partners, not away.

And if Jupiter does flip town, it's incredibly easy just to lynch Fykus the next day.

This is true in reverse too. If we lynch Fykus and he flips town, we insta-lynch Jupiter the next day.

As far as Lucca's posts towards sickofit are concerned, sickofit started buddying him by saying that since they both suspected each other in their previous game, hopefully they don't do it here. But Lucca doesn't accept that even though it would be really easy to do and instead pushes back voting sickofit in 383.

[BlackVoid]

I also think town Doc + town JK is much less likely than town doc and whatever bizarre role Jupiter claimed. I'm not going to fully clear Jupiter. We should mass-claim tomorrow and I'll post more thoughts on his claim then. But today, I'm going to go with Occam's razor and vote Fykus once Sensfan shows up.

[BlackVoid]

Actually, I wanted to talk to you about my "case." The majority of it was annoyance at Jupiter's play with underlying assumptions that he was town playing badly. I don't get how both you concluded he was scum from what I posted although Jaack said the same thing so maybe it might be reasonable.

How would it benefit me as scum to do a bunch of useless wheel-spinning tying a town-Fykus to other people before mislynching him? All the associations then go out the window. It's more that I'm confident he's scum and want Matt's opinion and feedback before we move on with the lynch because I've liked his contributions to the game and he's an active player I can talk to unlike pretty much most of the playerlist.

I explained to Jaack why sickofit not pushing Fykus makes more sense if he doesn't care about the outcome than if he was trying to lynch the town Jailkeeper.

It's not even that sick was straight-up cc'ing him; just throwing his action choice into doubt, which might not have even gotten sick lynched the next day.

Are you kidding me? Fykus claimed to have visited shannon. Sickofit cotradicted that and said Fykus visited ssbm/Jaack. If we lynched Fykus and he flipped town, you don't think sickofit would be auto-lynched the next day?

I agree that if Jupiter is scum and Fykus is town, then me and IAI make the most logical sense for his partners because if Jupiter's partner was someone not in Fykus's top three, then that partner would have performed the kill with no fear of being blocked. But I know I'm town and I think Fykus is way more likely scum than a Jupiter/IAI team.

[BlackVoid]

I will look over the possibility of a Sickofit + Lucca/Jupiter + IAI team though just to make sure we cover all our bases. The majority of IAI townread came from the fact that he pushed sickofit + Fykus who I figured were both scum. But most of IAI's D1 push was on Fykus, not sickofit and if Fykus is town, I don't have much of a reason to clear him and there's isn't really anything that proves that IAI/Jupiter aren't a team.

[BlackVoid]

Matt we can talk more post game but with fykus as the sure lynch today, an even number of players to start the day, and me being universally town read (0 votes received this game), the proper move would have been to try and play cat and mouse one more time with scum and try to get us an extra mislynch.

Guys fykus is scum. Scum not killing a claimed JKer two times now plus interactions between fykus and sick pretty much confirms it.

BV be careful of setup spec, I'm not ready to give Jupiter a town read based on that. Remember cloud kicker.

With that said I'm pretty sure Matt is going tonight so I'll hold the rest of my thoughts until day 4. If I do go, my final two concerns if/when fykus flips scum is senspan or Jupiter is prob the last scum

Okay, so I agree with you that interactions between sickofit and Fykus indeed look like partners. But your other points aren't very strong. Scum obviously wouldn't kill Fykus N1 when they still had a roleblocker and he was very lynchable. There was no kill N2 so it's possible Jupiter might have tried to make the kill and got blocked. He did tell Fykus not to roleblock him though so maybe he thought Fykus would listen to him?

I'm not sure how you are arguing that Jupiter and Fykus make sense as partners. That end-of-day seemed really genuine where Jupiter tells Fykus to limit his shot to three people and then specifically requests that he not be jailed. That didn't look orchestrated to me at all.

This situation is a little bit different from Cloudkicker's. 3 Masons make sense because it was a copy of an open setup. A tracker/backup tracker/Doc is too little power against a scum roleblocker so unless there's another PR, I have a hard time seeing both Fykus and Jupiter flipping scum here.

[BlackVoid]

Also, you don't read well. I said I suspect you are town so not sure why all the defensive FOS talk. I also suspect you are a weaker player and wish you'd trust stronger players like BV and myself when we suggest it is in towns best interest if you claim today. Unlike BV I am not in agreement that we send a bunch of votes your way to force you to claim.

If you want to be stubborn so be it. We'll lynch fykus who was a day 1 claimed JKer who scum chose not once but twice not to kill. Because he's scum. Sorry you can't see the obvious.

Anyway...

vote fykus

Why wouldn't you be willing to force a claim though? You cautioned me against the Cloudkicker scenario so if truly believed that him claiming was good for town, why not back up your words, run him up to L-1 and demand a claim. Again not sure why the fact that Fykus is still alive plays into your suspicion of him. I expected him to be alive no matter what his alignment and isn't really a major reason why I suspect him.

[BlackVoid]

Nice shade. Why don't you go back and see who was one of the biggest pushes of the sick wagon.

Yeah but all of it was day two like you admitted. You barely pushed sickofit day one. You were pushing Fykus all day and when Sickofit voted and unvoted him, you said that it looked like partner-y interactions. Sickofit didn't look like he was going to make it to endgame so I wouldn't discount you driving the lynch through for maximum cred. I recall you saying in Musical mafia that you've had some great wins as scum and this isn't something I'd put past someone of your caliber.

[BlackVoid]

PS JK is a perfect fake claim when your team has a RBer, which we now know scum had.

Except scum would want the person who actually is the RB'er to make the JK claim and the other scum would likely want to claim something else. If they had pre-game talk, I'm sure sick and Fykus would have agreed that Sick would claim JK and Fykus should claim something else.

[BlackVoid]

Why are you so sure you have saved town Jupiter from a NK target vs preventing scum Jupiter from making the kill?

This is obviously a Hail Mary attempt at saving fykus today.

Jupiter are you a bodyguard?

If IAI is scum, I could see this as wanting to drive home the Fykus lynch while also suspecting Jupiter in case both need to be lynched and Jupiter goes first. But that's just speculation on my part.

[BlackVoid]

But I don't believe Fykus' Jailkeeper claim either which is why I'm torn. Are they both scum, and is sick doing a god awful job at bussing his buddy? He's not even really bussing him. The night actions don't match up so one of them has to be lying for sure, and Sick should know this, but he's not doing anything about it. I don't buy that he didn't see Fykus' night action claim because he saw JupiterCrush's post which was on the same page right after BlackVoid, and Fykus were talking about his jailkeeping target. I don't understand.

Yeah one of them for sure is lying, likely both.

I'm going to give them each one more chance to speak up, and then I'll let the group know where my vote is going to land and why.

For now tho

unvote sick

6 hours until Fykus is prodded. If he doesn't produce something of substance, I am going to vote there. Once again, reasons.

You unvoted Sickofit and committed to voting Fykus instead. While I don't think that was entirely unreasonable as I wasn't sure myself which of the two I wanted lynched, it does seem odd that you had a preference for Fykus despite saying that both were lying. If Fykus hadn't quick-hammered sickofit, I don't think a Fykus lynch would have been out of the question.

[BlackVoid]

Looking at a Jupiter/IAI possibility, it still doesn't "click" for me. I could see it being plausible but IAI backing off of sickofit when he saw the soft-claim mirrored my own thoughts as I was reading through and that's a pretty hard reaction to fake. I do think Jailkeeper makes more sense as a town role than whatever Jupiter claimed (why does a mod even create a role like 1-shot rolecop, 1-shot doc, and 1-shot BP vest? Mods would want an elegant setup and that role just looks ridiculous). I think Jaack makes some good points about how Jupiter's play makes sense as scum but I'm still hung up on the fact that it would be really complicated to set it all up like he did. Jupiter's actions do make sense with the role he claimed and he would have had to pre-plan having this ridiculous role right from the moment he replaced in and play accordingly. Then there's the fact that Fykus has basically not been playing this game. He's been mega-lurking for a very, very long time. I've seen his newbie town-game. This isn't how he plays. He's active, he's passionate, he enjoys the game. This seems more like his own description of his scumgame. Even after considering everything, I think I still want Fykus on balance.

[BlackVoid]

Also, Fykus jailing Jupiter because he thought he was a PR was kinda silly if town. You want PRs to be able to use their PR and jailing prevents them from doing that. It would have been a much better hypothetical scenario if he just jailed elsewhere and let Jupiter use the PR. If scum caught that soft, they'd kill him but if not we get a useful result.

[BlackVoid]

If Fykus was town, *Sickofit* would do everything he can to get that Fykus mislynch before going down.

[BlackVoid]

@Jupiter, are you an alt? You seem to have more experience at forum mafia than you seem to be letting on. I don't think someone who has only played face-to-face mafia would come in with the opinions and arguments that you are presenting.

[BlackVoid]

say i am the scum, why would i make the NK if fykus declared me as one of his potential targets and not have my partner do the kill instead?

Well, that's basically the reason that I think IAI is the only likely partner for you.

[BlackVoid]

What's your username on mafia universe?

[BlackVoid]

That's bullshit. He was going to be prodded in 3 hours so he showed up just in time to prod-dodge. Busy weekend didn't stop him from posting elsewhere even after this game thread opened for D3.

[BlackVoid]

@Shannon - IAI voted sickofit in RVS on D1 so him moving off isn't really concerning. I do want him to explain why he moved off from Sickofit to Fykus on D2 though. As for me voting Sickofit D2, I'm a different person than LUV and I'd like to think I'm decent scumhunter. I didn't vote at all D1 because the day ended before I could make a decision on where I wanted to vote. There might be more than co-incidence to the fact that there was a voting block though. I'm interested in seeing what you do with it.

@Sensfan - you are heavily downplaying how annoying how annoying and frustrating your inactivity in this game has been. You have contributed almost nothing to the game besides your initial push on TwoFace for suspecting sickofit. Then you showed up and complained about how people unvoting because of claims is bad (which I think you actually believe even though I disagree). You claimed to not buy the Fykus wagon, on D2 you joined the people saying that TwoFace was too obvious a kill for sickofit to make and did not contribute towards his lynch. You've been on the wrong end of the sickofit lynch pretty much the whole game and given he was the roleblocker, that doesn't look very good for you. I was indeed skeptical of your post last night because it seemed like more of the same stalling but at least now you've started becoming active so I'm slightly happier about that and your read on Fykus. At the time I suggested just moving on with the day, I didn't have any hope that you ever intended to catch up and it seemed like you and Fykus have given up on the game. I'm still not at the point of townreading you though and would appreciate you hammering out in-depth reads on all players.

[BlackVoid]

@Jaack, so who do you think is partnered with Jupiter? Do you think there's merit to what I said about only me or IAI fitting in as a partner because if it was anyone else, they would have performed the kill instead of Jupiter doing it?

[BlackVoid]

Here's why I prefer Fykus: I think the lack of reaction to sickofit faking a result on him is very unlikely to be town. I think the low activity level, the disinterest, and the stalling is unlikely to be town especially since I've read through a newbie town-game of his and his play here is nothing like this. I'm not sure why you don't think it's damning. There's also the fact that there's nothing in the D1 ISO of sickofit/Fykus that stops them from being partners. In fact, things like sickofit trying to associate Fykus with TwoFace points more towards them being partners. There's also what I mentioned earlier that sickofit would try harder to lynch Fykus if Fykus were town. What Matt said is the icing on the cake.

Between Fykus and Jupiter, I admit I'm annoyed with Jupiter's play and manner of revealing his claim. I'm not even sure I buy the role that he claimed and there's still a tinfoil worry that Lucca and Sickofit were using their previous game to signal to each other that "weird" was some kind of code. But I do have to say Jupiter's actions are consistent with his claim in a way that if he's scum, he went through a lot of effort to pre-plan the whole thing. I also like the fact that Lucca didn't bite into sickofit's insistence that because they pushed each other in a previous game, they should be friends now. Lucca pushed against that and voted him. All on balance, I think Fykus is more likely to flip scum and now that Sensfan has posted, I'm ready to vote there. Not sure who the partner is but since I'm certainly going to be alive tomorrow, I'll get around to it then.

VOTE: Fykus (L-1)

[BlackVoid]

I'm not really sold on the outcome of lynching a scum-Jupiter being good for us because I have a really hard time seeing Fykus being scum playing the way he did. I have considered all options, I looked over Lucca/Jupiter, looked over interactions between sickofit and Fykus and I still can't see a likely scenario where Fykus is town. If I'm wrong, that's a lot of re-evaluation I need to do although I'd lynch Jupiter and heavily lean towards IAI as Jupiter's partner. But most likely I think Fykus is scum and we have a pool of six to figure out the partner. So, I suggest we lynch Fykus today, see what role he has if scum, mass-claim tomorrow and then figure out where Jupiter's claim fits in.

[BlackVoid]

Anyone willing to hammer while the mod is here so we can get the flip?

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I meant I have a hard time seeing him as town.

[BlackVoid]

If Fykus is scum like I expect, IAI is pretty much confirmed town not just because he nailed both scum on D1 and pushed for their lynches but also because he was the obvious nightkill N2 whom you saved.

I'm talking about the off-chance that Fykus is town. I don't think he is but I'm the kind of player that likes to exhaust all options and consider every possibility to make sure nothing gets by me so I looked over that too. To be clear, I don't think IAI is scum. I think Fykus is. With who, I'm not sure.

Unless you are arguing that IAI is town even in a Jupiter-scum, Fykus-town scenario, then I do have to wonder why Jupiter would perform the kill over someone outside of his list of top three.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I figured. Any last thoughts on who the partner is? We've all coalesced on it being Sensfan but I'd like your thoughts on Jaack's and massive's pushes on Jupiter. Also, shannon's switch from voting Fykus to deciding that if we're going to lynch anyone, it would be the JOAT.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I'll make sure I get Jupiter to explain that. Still setup-wise, do you think just a tracker, backup, and doc are balanced against a mafia roleblocker?

[BlackVoid]

Also, do you think the whole think where he told Fykus not to jail him was orchestrated? I guess I could see it being fake if he's from EpicMafia and knows to fake those kind of things but he said he only played at mafia universe.

[BlackVoid]

I could see where Jack was coming from. What he was saying made sense, and I was also a little suspicious of Jupiter. I didn't agree with him when he said he wanted to lynch Jupiter over Fykus, but I don't think he's scum.

Yeah, I agreed with a lot of what Jaack said regarding Jupiter. What about massive?

[BlackVoid]

You mean here?

VOTE COUNT 1.09

shannon (5): massive, lucca261, Soulmil07, Sickofit1138, Fykus
Fykus (4): shannon, I Am Innocent, mattblackguy, ssbm_Kyouko
Sickofit1138 (1): TwoFace
lucca261 (1): Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting (2): Nadpool, SensFan

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-02-09 16:49:02)

Marshmallow fun fact: The modern method of marshmallow production can be traced back to 1954, invented by Greek American confectioner Alex Doumak.

Well, if they are trying to counterwagon their buddy, I suppose they would.

[BlackVoid]

Good game everyone. The scumteam here were demolished by the wrecking ball that was IAI. First time playing with Matt, I really liked gamesolving with him. KNDP, self-hammering as a PR is almost never a good idea, please don't do it again. You could have been confirmed town through TwoFace's claim. I'm going to have to be a bit skeptical of Jupiter here. I don't think lying was a good idea as it made it likely that you'd be lynched in place of scum. A large part of why I was still considering lynching you was I just didn't buy your 1-shot BP claim. Scum RB was already dead so they couldn't interfere with your plan and you should have come clean when asked. With that said, good shot. I admit to having written up a case on massive while re-reading the game N3. Thanks for modding, Leonshade. Really enjoyed playing with several people on this playerlist.