Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Formerfish]

Monkey, how did you say you felt about policy lynches early in the game?

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey, how did you say you felt about policy lynches early in the game?

I was referring to policy lynching specific players. But, sometimes policy lynching on theory can be bad too, obviously, which is why I reconsidered my stance.

[Flames682]

Monkey and RC make me cringe every time they post

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not sure what it is you want from me.

[Elbirn]

Lynch All Liars is a

longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community

. Quite simply,

most Townies have no reason to lie

about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process.

The problem here is ignoring the basis for Lynch All Liars.

In many cases if someone is lying, one of two things are happening

1. Someone is lying for a reason that can't be discerned as town motivated, i.e. they are scum.
2. Some newbie is lying as part of a gambit when they didn't really know what they were doing, and because of it town was hurt by the play.

In the first case, lynching the player makes sense as they are likely scum. In the latter case, the player is either lying scum or a newbie town who needs to be lynched for the sake of town, and as a sort of punishment for doing dumb things so they don't do it in the future.

This scenario does not fit into this mantra. Cheeto was damn near confirmed town, and bluffed ever so slightly about his actual role so that he could avoid a nightkill. This is literally the exact opposite of the two above points. His lying is for a town motivated reason, and he is not a newbie and he does know what he is doing, and town was AIDED by the play. He got a confirmed town instead of possibly dying.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything, and I'm not going to harangue you over your play. Just in the future, consider that town players can lie for good reasons, and policy lynches aren't exactly an ideal that you need to strive for.

Any way, I feel like the atmosphere in this thread is getting a bit....bleh. Can we give constructive criticisms instead of just insulting people? I'm not happy with the way things turned out either but being a dick to each other isn't going to help anyone's games in the future, nor is it going to exactly endear us to each other

[MonkeyMan576]

Lynch All Liars is a

longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community

. Quite simply,

most Townies have no reason to lie

about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process.

The problem here is ignoring the basis for Lynch All Liars.

In many cases if someone is lying, one of two things are happening

1. Someone is lying for a reason that can't be discerned as town motivated, i.e. they are scum.
2. Some newbie is lying as part of a gambit when they didn't really know what they were doing, and because of it town was hurt by the play.

In the first case, lynching the player makes sense as they are likely scum. In the latter case, the player is either lying scum or a newbie town who needs to be lynched for the sake of town, and as a sort of punishment for doing dumb things so they don't do it in the future.

This scenario does not fit into this mantra. Cheeto was damn near confirmed town, and bluffed ever so slightly about his actual role so that he could avoid a nightkill. This is literally the exact opposite of the two above points. His lying is for a town motivated reason, and he is not a newbie and he does know what he is doing, and town was AIDED by the play. He got a confirmed town instead of possibly dying.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything, and I'm not going to harangue you over your play. Just in the future, consider that town players can lie for good reasons, and policy lynches aren't exactly an ideal that you need to strive for.

Any way, I feel like the atmosphere in this thread is getting a bit....bleh. Can we give constructive criticisms instead of just insulting people? I'm not happy with the way things turned out either but being a dick to each other isn't going to help anyone's games in the future, nor is it going to exactly endear us to each other

How was he "damned near confirmed town?" He said as much when I questioned his claim, but instead of explaining his reasoning he went into a hyper-OMGUSy state.

[copper223]

I don't think this discussion is very productive because most players are either venting or just taking the critiques as a personal insults, flames is being a bit too harsh in my opinion as well.

Monkey, I think reaction testing Cheetory at mylo with a vote when you are one of the primarary lynch candidates is an overly risky strat, why not just FOS him next time and let him try to explain his position? If you looked back it was hard to picture Cheetory as scum, most of what he did with the claim was clearly town sided, like FOSing a player who actually did act during the night and then doing his best to make the rest of town accept his vig claim, he also explained why he lied and the logic made sense to me, you have to ask yourself why he would admit to have being lying there just to give another very likely town, Eektor, a pass. When Eektor did not hammer you, it should have been pretty clear to you he was town as well, instead you quibbled with him about the technical meaning of confirmed which looked very suspicious to someone not knowing your alignment.

More in general I have a hard time with you because I don't understand where most of your reads are coming from and why, this is the second game where I correctly peg you as town based on the wagons that build up on you and both times you called me scum for reasons I still don't understand, your Elbirn sheep because he seemed confident in his posting this game was really weird to me for instance.

@RC
You claimed to be a great player at the start and this game I did not see it, people are bound to be bitter about it but I don't think you are bad, just too self assured and not transparent enough with how you communicate, this is not ment to be insulting, if you disagree you may well be right but this is my take on how you cam improve your game.

[Cheetory6]

If you were honestly trying to reaction test me then I'm sorry Monkey. I still think that's really bad, but I can at least understand where that was coming from I guess?
I definitely don't feel as angry anymore and my reaction was probably overstated because I thought Monkey and RC were possibly being literal with some stuff that they were just being obscure about.
In any case, probably lame that I got as angry as I did, so I'm sorry for that.
I do think it'll be productive that I don't play with either of you in the near future just so that things aren't weird in those games. Nothing personal anymore and I get it if both of you are like "fuck that Cheet guy what a jerk".

[RadiantCowbells]

I never understood this Mafiascum tendency to blame mislynchees for getting mislynched.

Monkey wasn't star player of the game, no doubt about that, but it wasn't him who lynched town on Mylo.

[MonkeyMan576]

The only reason I would blacklist someone is if they purposefully broke the rules or threatened the integrity of a game. There are a lot of different playstyles and levels of experience in mafia and to me part of the game is playing with someone you might have a personality conflict with. I'm not holding anything against you, Cheetory, sometimes getting upset and someone is part of the game and after the game you just put it behind you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like, I'm going to clarify this because I find some of the town's reactions so questionable.

Was I a major part of why we lost this game?

yes.

What I'm disagreeing with you guys on is why.

Did I hurt town by being stubborn, hardpushing my scumreads, or trying to avoid claims, like you guys are implying? No, not at all.

I lost this game for us because

for 2 entire days I had my vote locked on a townie.

In fact, I had my vote on 4 separate townies when they went down.

Yes, only one of them was a legitimate scumread. And I still stand that the Viktor lynch cleared up the game a lot.

But imagine another iteration of this game where instead of tunneling Elbirn D2, I tunneled Pie.

Things seem a lot different now, don't they?

So just keep in mind that my style while abrasive did cause my major scumspect to be lynched, and if they had in fact been scum people would be saying entirely different things.

tl;dr criticize me for my reads and votes, not my playstyle which actually succeeded in getting the big lynch I wanted down.

[MonkeyMan576]

Day 1 and 2 are notoriously difficult for lynching scum. It's pretty much a tossup.

[Cheetory6]

@RC

, the thing that frustrated me the most about your play is your unwillingness to actually interact with anyone.
Like, it'd be one thing for you to try and convince me why Elbirn had been a good lynch or to say why Boon was a bad lynch on D3, but that never happened.
I repeatedly tried to lay out thoughts for people to consider and nobody other than Pie of all people took them seriously.

Mafia is a collaborative game and if you repeatedly knock away people's attempts to interact with you, don't be surprised when they get frustrated when your reads were wrong and you refused to interact with people to try and see if they were valid when the opportunity was there. I don't blame someone who was mislynched if they legitimately try to engage the thoughts that I have and I decide that I don't believe them. That's my fault for reading the situation wrong. I don't think that's what happened here though.

[RadiantCowbells]

I guess and I agree.

The D2 Toon lynch just completely sapped my focus on this game because that was literally the last lynch I wanted that day.

This really isn't the way I usually play, and I'm not happy with this game at all.

[Cheetory6]

Sokay.
I think we're all pretty unhappy with how we played [other than Boon/Pie/Fish but I mean..].

[MonkeyMan576]

This is simply a case where the town wasn't acting townie enough to win, and scum played a good game. Sadly I could have done much better as well, probably would have helped if I had more gaming experience with most of the players. I find myself distrustful of other people's reads for the most part and tend to focus on my own analysis.

[Elbirn]

I guess and I agree.

The D2 Toon lynch just completely sapped my focus on this game because that was literally the last lynch I wanted that day.

This really isn't the way I usually play, and I'm not happy with this game at all.

I still really don't get that hammer. If you didn't want a Toon lynch, why did you hammer? You explained it as not wanting anyone else to claim; was that really justification enough? I don't feel like hammering someone you believe is town to be a good play. Anyone wanna talk theory on that?

[RadiantCowbells]

It's not, but I felt like that lynch was inevitable and we might as well get it over with.

[Elbirn]

Oh right, I had meant to post this when the game ended and forgot.

>Boon's face when scum win

[N]