Mini 1669 - Pictures for Sad Children Mafia - COMPLETED

[farside22]

Anyways I'm going to get something together.
I'm sure diefire being alive because wander can win with him alive as scum. I'm already feeling up shit creek with how distracted I got fighting with rev most of the game.

[farside22]

I'm phone posting so the first is quotes and below is my comments in regards to the post.

I'm afraid I'm tunnelling but I'm still not liking MM and NM at all.
NM still hasn't responded at all to anything about the maybe-PT-slip. MM's responses haven't satisfied me so far.

@BBT: maybe MM needed time to make up an excuse? I don't really buy it, it was page 1, he saw the mod-posts at least before he saw NM's post when he opened the page. How does one forget it was that early? It's freaking post #9.
Maybe you can respond to my points in 145? If it doesn't change your reads, it might be able to help me move on.

I also just realized I haven't said what I found when going into Rev's iso. Nothing really stood out to me. It was weird he went back to RVS after his point on farside, but on the other hand I can understand his reasoning for that. I would have liked it better if he just refrained from voting at all at that point. Other than that, everything looks rather okay for me. Slight townlean.

I'm a little claustrofobic so I'm going to read iso's to try and get out of the tunnel on MM/NM.
Some impressions before doing that (Now this is just of the top of my head without reading back so it's not too accurate yet):
MM and NM can both still be scum to me.
Not really liking kaboose on bella much, but it concerns me more that Skold is following this while not having a clear read on kaboose. Especially because he can use the exact same argument on dierfire (which would even make more sense because he's the one that brought it up) so why would he pick Bella?
I'm leaning town on BBT, Bella, dierfire and Draynth, and Rev also doesn't look bad as I already mentioned.
I'm null on farside and flubber, for farside mostly because I don't really remember her posts and flubber hasn't done much yet.

Posts 201 and 228 don't feel right to me. It's how scum would work in my opinion. Townreads are just as, if not more, valuable than scumreads.
In 31 he turns 'bothered' to 'worried' and they don't quite mean the same. Now this I could actually see as a language-error, but so far Kaboose seems to have a good understanding of the English language so that seems unlikely.

I have looked at farside as well, and I'm not sure how to feel about her actually. I still feel she was buddying (see my 29) and I guess Rev just didn't respond in a way farside expected and latched onto that. 40 looks like farside is on Rev more for policy than an actual scumread there. Hasn't really done much but apparently had a bad day so lets see how she catches up.

I'd sooner join a Kaboose-lynch than a farside-lynch right now.

UNVOTE:
Still feel uneasy about monkey but I'm leaving this tunnel. Want to see more from all 3 I mentioned here so I can make up my mind.

Doing more iso's later, taking a break now.

PEdit:
203 confused me at first, I can see Skold's point but I don't know where he gets the apologizing-part from. Skold could also do more, pretty much still null on him.

6 I'd like to think scum wouldn't hint to scum (even though scum does it more often apparently) during RVS. So I never really minded this.
16 Now that I know Rev a little better (can't elaborate because of ongoing*, sorry) this post doesn't mean too much, but it felt a little townish to me before.
21 is where I start getting annoyed at how Rev is handling that question/first post from farside. Why is it so hard to just say: ye I'm town we're gonna catch scum this game?
23 is where Rev falls back to RVS and in 32 he explains he doesn't want to dominate the discussion. I felt this was considerate at first, but like I said in an earlier post; he could have just backed off from farside, he didn't need to put an RVS vote.
75 is where Rev explains why farside pinged and in 77 remembers he still has an RVS vote out and changes it to farside. At that point I didn't mind Rev's vote because farside's first post felt like she was buddying Rev.
86 and 93 felt town to me.
110 I think his thought on farside was a little farfetched here, but at the time I can get his Draynth-read. In 165 Rev explains a little more how he feels about farside missing questions. I don't really know what to think here but the only reasons Rev is suspecting farside are her first post and the case he makes in 110 and expands on in 165.
170 A post by Kaboose convinces Rev that farside is town and Kaboose is scum. This looked town to me until he revotes farside later.
209 felt town to me.
227 is a response to nm calling the scumteam. I didn't dislike Rev's post because I agreed it looked like nm randomly put 3 names together and didn't actually read carefully to come to an opinion like that.
237 Rev circled back to farside, and I can get into that actually. Farside hadn't done much up until that point so I had my doubts about her myself.
262 Rev doesn't think Kaboose's claim was convincing, doesn't do anything with that though.
310 You know what I don't get Rev? In an earlier post you were convinced farside was town because Kaboose jumped on her and later you think they're scumbuddies because farside isn't responding to Kaboose at all, so how is your scumread on farside stronger than on Kaboose?
311, 314, 316, 317 and 319 I agree with these, but they're not allignment indicative.
And that was all.

Farside starts to look town to me from 289, and I really liked her 345, because she notices Rev and Monkey haven't really interacted. But then she ends it with 'Am I going crazy' which to me feels sort of apologetic. She doesn't like how Rev is avoinding the wagon on a scumread of his, but farside has a scumread on Kaboose to but decides to vote Monkey instead. So she's kinda doing the same thing but it's scummy on Rev but not on her?

I really don't know what to think right now. I guess right now I'm most happy with a Kaboose lynch, but I could also go for Monkey. I'm now null on Rev and farside, I'm hoping a flip will tell me more about them.

Spoiler: PEdit:

@Dierfire: Hehe, really? Roller derby (my club organized the disco) comes from the US and is booming right now in Europe.

I've looked at the Kaboose-wagon.
Voting: Bella, BBT, Draynth, Monkey and me.

Bella

Reason to vote: reads/reasons for voting seem forced.
My read of Bella: Bella doesn't stand out much to me. She declared me town, and this happened to me before and both times the person saying it was town. So I'm inclined to believe Bella is town for this, also because scum will try to not have definite townreads, especially day 1, in my opinion.
I didn't like she first gave points to NM for declaring intent to hammer while Kaboose was at L-2, but when others are commenting on NM's hammerlove Bella thinks it's odd too. It's a little thing and I like Bella's other posts so I'll have her as a slight townread right now.

BBT

Reason to vote: Kaboose voted farside for a slight lie while thinking her iso is pretty solid otherwise.
My read of BBT: I didn't much like how he only skimmed the game at first and joined a bandwagon without much consideration. It doesn't bother me though because I don't think scum would enter the game like that. BBT has been aggressively scumhunting so far, it looks like that to me at least. I think BBT is town.

Draynth

Reason to vote: It was weird for me, he first sorta kinda defends Kaboose but then votes anyway as he realises he's still RVS'ing (244) and thinks this is the scummiest case so far.
My read of Draynth: Besides his reason to vote, nothing is really pinging me on Draynth. Even though he sheeped hard, he seems to be understanding (and agreeing with) the reasons for lynching Kaboose. He's also engaging with several people and I think his thoughts are clear. I'ma put him down as a townread between slight and sure.

Monkey

Reason to vote: Believes BBT and Kaboose looks like scum.
My read of Monkey: I was very suspicious of him early game and it was hard to adjust my read on him. I just reread 44 and I'm an idiot, I suddenly understand where he's coming from. What I don't really get is what happened to Monkeys scumread on BBT. He voted BBT earlier, then jumped to Dierfire (which felt weird to me because some time had passed already since Dierfire's accusation, so it didn't feel very genuine to me) and after Dierfire he sheeps BBT. But he doesn't mention BBT in between and doesn't engage with him, so what changed? He's posting regularly, posting his thoughts, but not in an elaborate way, and at times he gets defensive. The bolded FoS on Rev felt weird to me, and thinking about if scum is trying to get attention off the Kaboose-wagon, Monkeys FoS fits. Scumlean to me.

Wanderer

Reason to vote: Kaboose scumhunts the same way scum would build a case on town. I joined the bandwagon to get to a claim and see how others reacted to that (I didn't explain it in my original vote-post obviously) Also the fact that Kaboose never responded to farside's explanation after Kaboose's accusation didn't sit right with me. And there was also a language-thing that turned out to be a difference of interpretation.
My read of Wanderer: I'm actually mod-confirmed to myself^^ (yesyes, we all are, we all got role-pms, just smile (or roll eyes) and move on)

Conclusion

As I said before the bandwagon feels like it's getting resistance, but because it was weekend I don't want to be too definite in this thought. I'd think scum would try to make cases on other townies trying to get a counterwagon going and there seem to be 2; on Rev and on Monkey (3 votes each) I'm still pretty convinced Kaboose is scum. I'm going to look into the CW's next.

An additional thought:
Reverend had his vote on Kaboose for a short while as well after Kaboose voted farside. That was a reason for Rev to think farside was actually town. I'll reference you to my 360 for my thoughts on Reverend. I realize this was posted quite some time ago, and I haven't responded to Rev's 429 yet (he answer some questions I asked, among other things) and Rev's iso grew twice as large since I made that post, so need to take another look at Rev but he's on a CW so that'll happen when I inspect those.

And another:
Not-Mafia to me looks like he is trying to prevent a claim by declaring intent to hammer at L-2, and he also said he'd probably hammer pending a claim. That prevents any reads of reactions to that claim and that's scummy in my opinion.
Kaboose is basically at L-1 with this intent to hammer, so I'd like him to claim now.

PEdit: Kaboose posted while I wrote this, gonna go ahead and post this and then read his post.

Okay, I'm actually confused now and need to think.
My 492, what if scum is trying this with a buddy? NM looks pretty scummy for wanting to hammer before a claim. If Kaboose busses him and one of them gets lynched and flips scum, the other gains towncred for it.
The lack of vote in Kaboose's 510 is concerning me a little, because it makes it look like Kaboose is waiting for votes to drop on NM before voting there himself. But then again, if Kaboose had voted I might have accused him of fixing a new CW.

@Kaboose: it looks like you have a pretty decent scumread on NM but you haven't changed your vote. What makes you think Rev deserves your vote more than NM?

@Dierfire: did you miss where NM declared intent to hammer while Kaboose was at L-2? How do you feel about that?

@The people voting Kaboose: any comment on his claim? People voting elsewhere (or not at all) are welcome to respond too by the way.

@Kaboose: you say that out of Monkey and NM 1 is scum and the other town. Then you say that if you controlled the lynch, you'd lynch NM. How is that not a stronger scumread on NM than on Monkey? And what do you think about NM not wanting to hammer anymore?

Oh and I wanted to add that Monkey's vote mixup looks more town than scum to me because I think scum would be more careful when they make a vote. I'm not saying scum would never make this mistake, but I'm not gonna call scum just over that.

Lurker-Skold = scum.
VOTE: Skold

(Taking some time off from farside and Rev, I just want to catch scum today. 9p left, lynch today is 8p left, 2 kills is 6p tomorrow. Scumteam of probably 3p? Yeah we have to catch scum)

So I was thinking of what wander said about me and I realized reading back she was town reading Bella and going along with Bella's rads.
It's not till the claims does she say Bella is scum.
The push on mm stopes at a certain point and above you see her attacking nm for his intent to hammer, which I stated was not scummy at all.

[Wanderer-nl]

Since NM claimed I've been consistingly calling you, Monkey and Bella scum, when NM claimed you were still calling Bella town. The 2nd day of lylo you had no problem hammering Bella. And you didn't hammer or even vote Monkey, who you actually had as a scumread. And you have done nothing but push Rev and barely pushed Monkey.
And also; had I been mafia with Monkey and Bella I would have pushed harder on a NM lynch instead of trying to figure out if NM and Monkey had a PT AT THE START OF THE GAME!!!

[farside22]

Reads don't change 180 degrees because of claims for me.
Only scum know who is scum. I was wrapped up with my original thinking and you and diefire post orginally sounded like different stories to me.

[farside22]

And ftfr I tried my fucking damnest to move past rev at least a few times. He pissed me off and I thought he was protecting MM there for awhile.

[farside22]

Anyways my point against wander is she did push nm on day 1 with the whole intent to hammer, which I said was null. I also notice Bella nor monkey looked at wander at all and barely interacted with her. Usually scum buddy or push on mislynches more.
Day 2 wander stuck with nm over monky.
Why?

[Wanderer-nl]

No, day 2 I gave up on my NM-scumread because it didn't get support. I spent most of day 2 reading your arguing with Rev and trying to figure you guys out until I got tired of it and put a pressure-vote on Skold. Monkey's hammer there was horrible enough to change my read, excuse me for not spelling that out but it should be obvious that someone who hasn't posted should at least get a chance to post something before hammering unless it's very close to deadline and that wasn't the case.

[farside22]

No shit MM's hammer was horrible.
I probably should have fought more about that in retrospect, but I will still surprised by the rev flip/shot

[Dierfire]

I'm posting from my phone to dodge the prod. I will catch up within 24 hours. Apologies for the delay! I know that we're waiting on me.

[Dierfire]

All right, I think that I'm ready:

VOTE: Farside

I read through the thread and the neighborhood again but I don't think that I'm going to be able to talk myself into voting for Wanderer if she is Mafia. I guess that she might have just been planning this LYLO from the start but I think that the activity in the first LYLO is most consistent with a team of Bella, Farside, and Wanderer. Monkey, Bella, and Farside were all ready to vote for me so if Wanderer were Mafia it would have been wise for her to at least pretend to be somewhat suspicious of me in order to leave that door open (which would also have allowed her to be more flexible in subsequent days).

Good luck to us one last time!

[farside22]

Bah

[Psyche]

Farside was lynched. She was a Mafia Goon. The Town wins!

Setup/Night actions/PTs later today.

[Psyche]

Very sorry guys; something came up irl that kept me from my laptop. I should have just left the thread open.

Setup:
MonkeyMan576 - Mafia Goon
farside22 - Mafia Goon
Bellaphant - Mafia Goon

TheReverend - Vanilla Townie
BlueBloodedToffee - Vanilla Townie
Draynth - Vanilla Townie
Kaboose - Vanilla Townie
Flubbernugget - Vanilla Townie

Not_Mafia - Town Gunsmith
Skold - Town Vigilante
Dierfire - Town Neighbor
Wanderer-nl - Town Neighbor

***

Actions:
N1
Not_Mafia inspected Draynth
Bellaphant killed BBT
Skold killed Draynth

N2
Not_Mafia inspected flubbernugget
Bellaphant killed TheReverend

N3
Not_Mafia inspected Bellaphant
farside killed Not_Mafia

N4
farside killed Flubbernugget

[Psyche]

Neighbor PT:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6831287

Mafia PT:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6831166

[Psyche]

At the end of the day, I feel like the game was the story of the mafia letting the town hang itself over and over again until rope simply became too sparse. Once the time came for the mafia to maybe do something a bit less passive to win, the town obtained the advantage.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have to say I was super surprised to be killed N1.

I wasn't invested in the game and I wasn't even fully caught up!

WP Town!

Thanks for modding Psyche.

[Psyche]

Rev's reads were dynamite. I guess he just needs to work on his messaging?

[Bellaphant]

I think we made some bad NK choices in general, in hindsight! WP town, though. I think I'd skated by on a bunch of town-reads, and then the POE thing really threw me: no-one wanted to lynch me because of scummy stuff I'd done, so I struggled to defend myself and then didn't do enough. I thought Far could've had it for a moment, though!

Thanks to my scum-buddies, I enjoyed playing with you too

[Draynth]

Hey again everyone!
It was a fun game while I was alive, @Skold - Y u kill meh :(
Anyway I was reading it from time to time and it looked interesting.
Thanks to Psyche for modding! The comics were awesome

[Draynth]

Also, nice job Town hehe

[Not_Mafia]

GG Scum. Thanks for modding {syche

[Psyche]

also congrats on never flaking everyone

[Psyche]

Psyche (10:53)
i sort of regret the setup now
Bellaphant (10:53)
oh?
Psyche (10:53)
at some point the neighbors decided that they were masons
Psyche (10:53)
which made it hard for the mafia to win
Bellaphant (10:54)
Yeah, I read that
Psyche (10:54)
i suppose that should be fine
Psyche (10:54)
but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth
Bellaphant (10:54)
Like, where did that come from?
Psyche (10:54)
setup speculation
Psyche (10:54)
"when the neighbor group has just 2 people, both are usually town"
Bellaphant (10:54)
Like, objectively the Dier lynch should've had more traction without it
Psyche (10:54)
if i'd known about that tradition, i would have done things differently
Psyche (10:56)
i always thought that neighbors were essentially non-roles with no tangible benefits
Psyche (10:56)
but when you add setup spec they're more powerful

[Not_Mafia]

Yeah I'm not fond of neighbours and don't see what they add to a game, all they do is introduce mod wifom, they're just named roles with unnecessary baggage

[Dierfire]

Oh, so Skold killed Draynth? Interesting! I wonder what the reasoning for that was.

Thanks to Psyche for running the game!

---
EDIT
For what it's worth, I was not treating Wanderer as confirmed. Lots of the things that I said to her about players of whom I was suspicious (Rev especially) were to see if the information would "leak" to those players. If Rev had flipped Mafia I would probably have thought that Wanderer was Mafia as well.