MINI 1688 — BEES!!! — game over


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Post Post #1900 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:06 am

Post by RedCoyote »

In post 1892, Glork wrote:Long story short, I felt as if the integrity of the game was compromised by the mod changing his "no extensions, no exceptions" rule and granting a deadline extension because a couple of people asked for one. It undermined our strategy and put us at a competitive disadvantage that, by the mod's own rule set, should never have been possible.

In post 1899, Fro99er wrote:We were especially annoyed because no deadline extensions was even quoted in thread by the mod, and was extended because 100% of the players replacing out up to the time of extension were all town. Not scums fault town couldn't get their shot together, yet we were the ones being punished for it.

It double screws scum over because all the replacing in players are fresh new eyes on the game...and now they have extra time to do so as well, when the rule set clearly stated no extensions and was even quoted in game by the mod.


Oh, I'm glad y'all brought this up because I wanted to underline this as well. I have no problem with the concept behind permanent deadlines that cannot be extended under any circumstances, but if you do that then you should go full-on BaM ruleset and not allow replacements, imo (as in modkill any slots that do not participate). Because otherwise if you have a game like this where, like, over half the player list flaked, then it's going to hurt the game. You've got people coming in, they've got to make a rushed decision and it's going to hurt the town more often than not because it becomes more or less, "Uh, no time to catch up so I'll just vote for the most popular wagon". That hurts the game itself. I can empathize with the scumteam being upset that the mod went back and forth on his ruleset. That just goes to show you that it wasn't thought through enough. I don't think you can have it both ways. I mean, you can, but it seriously impacts the integrity of the game itself. Either have deadline extensions and allow replacements, or don't have deadline extensions and don't allow replacements.

Certainly Glork should replace out if the game is causing him stress to the point where it's taking a toll on him mentally and physically, however. I mean, I thought the slot was town prior to him replacing out anyway, so I have no room to complain about that. Though that is a clear sign that it's time to move on from forum mafia until/unless you can better learn to cope with the stress.
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Post Post #1901 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:55 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

sorry guys, I signed up for too many things at once

I hate replacing out
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Post Post #1902 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:58 am

Post by Antihero »

i like what you did with this setup, marquis.

you took a role that's usually meh (town rolecop) and made it pretty awesome and sexy. nice job.
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Post Post #1903 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:10 am

Post by Marquis »

Last edited by Marquis on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1904 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:29 am

Post by Marquis »

Thanks for the commentary, guys. I actually do appreciate all of it.

As I said in the dead PT, I just really love this setup so much and I'm really glad so many of you guys do too (*shameless glance at scummie noms thread*). It was designed around trying to have minimal active Night actions - the second rolecop didn't come until later in the design process when I realized pinning it on one rolecop would suck, though the whole guilty-by-rolecop mechanic was also integral from the start. Two PRs died early, but I think that contributed to the setup spec later on, which I found very entertaining and sort of rewarding for me. thx.

I fully realize I messed up with my rules+ultimate decision and I'm sorry. I explained some of my reasoning for that in the scum PT, but in the end it came down to me realizing when I had a chance to sit down instead of trying to rush-mod while busy on mobile that I should have adhered to the ruleset as written, but I had already said the 24h extension would be final. I wasn't about to go back on my word yet another time, and by the time I had talked with N enough time had passed for people to plan schedules around it and a reversal would mess with alignment implications anyway.

I'm planning on running another mini normal soon, but with allowances for deadline extensions that aren't ambiguous. As in an overall # of extension allowances, triggered by public agreement (not a majority of votes, but enough agreement so that scum can't just waste it early on). The game will still be fast, but not as much and with 1-2 extensions because otherwise I think town just hurts itself too much. I still believe a 6 day DL is still fully doable and then some for non-replacements, but that it's just hard to get used to without experience (before I came here I was used to 5-10 day DLs and *shrug*).
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Post Post #1905 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:01 am

Post by Glork »

It's fine and in retrospect I'm really not that upset about it. Goodness knows I've made my fair share of mistakes / misjudgments when modding, so I understand.
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Post Post #1906 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:09 am

Post by Fro99er »

^^this

The setup was indeed fantastic.

Also, one thing to consider on 6 day deadlines is NOT resetting the 48 hour clock overnight as umyiu did with Bulge. By doing so a player can wait 48 hours, post ince, wait 48 hours, post once and then day ends after another 48 hours and the prod clock resets overnight instead of needing an immediate prod upon start of next day.

This means you could post twice every game day and not even need a prod.
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Post Post #1907 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:18 am

Post by Marquis »

Yeah, that's going to be addressed too. When you brought it up earlier I was thinking about a 36/12 prod and response cycle, but that might be too short.

Using the activity overview to just subtract [length of night] from [time since last post] and prod if over prod timer amt would be fairly easy though with the same 48/12 or 48/24 cycle.
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Post Post #1908 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:11 am

Post by singersigner »

In post 1907, Marquis wrote:Yeah, that's going to be addressed too. When you brought it up earlier I was thinking about a 36/12 prod and response cycle, but that might be too short.

Using the activity overview to just subtract [length of night] from [time since last post] and prod if over prod timer amt would be fairly easy though with the same 48/12 or 48/24 cycle.


[hi was following this game cuz woo Fro99er and Glork!]

I've seen mods let players go up to two weeks without posting literally because "it's not my fault the town decided to lynch twice before x player got prodded during the day so their timer got reset over night." I get that "lynch all lurkers" is a valid strategy, or pressure votes swinging towards people who haven't contributed, but like...that implies that the mod thought the town should change it's strategy/dynamic to either drawing out the game day on purpose just to get a player within prod range, or lynching the inactives several days in just because they haven't been force-replaced yet over someone who'd been actively scummier/could give more information from their lynch. It felt like too much outside interference for a not-so-well-designed and not public rule (the fact that prod timers reset overnight), and was really shitty to witness that as an excuse (I really hope that doesn't become a thing on this site). I'm glad you're trying to find a solution around it, and the one you suggested seems as good as any. :]
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Post Post #1909 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:19 am

Post by Marquis »

In almost every game I've played I can think of, prod timers reset overNight. I adopted it under a "just the way it is" mentality, which obviously isn't the same as the most optimal way.

In hindsight the non-reset method is easier on mods than having to measure and remember exactly when Day started though. so. yay?

I'm actually kind of glad this game is getting me to take a better look at common vs. practical vs. optimal modding practices. Sounds kind of banal but I'm always looking to improve and learn from the mistakes.
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Post Post #1910 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:21 am

Post by KayP »

RC's compliment in the dead topic made me smile ear-to-ear. :D
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Post Post #1911 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:22 am

Post by SleepyKrew »

Prod timers resetting overnight is standardized, I think.
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Post Post #1912 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:24 am

Post by SleepyKrew »

In post 1909, Marquis wrote:In hindsight the non-reset method is easier on mods than having to measure and remember exactly when Day started though. so. yay?

Just look at your countdown!
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Post Post #1913 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:28 am

Post by KayP »

This was a fun first game on this site. I liked the pace of it, it's more akin to games I've played elsewhere.

Frogger really did a bang-up job here. He carried us pretty far, and Metal Sonic was a great partner who defended me and kept a lot of attention off of me. I was the weakest member of the mafia team, but the two of them played it perfectly, so I'm very grateful for them.
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Post Post #1914 (ISO) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:00 pm

Post by Bicephalous Bob »

In post 1898, Fro99er wrote:Oh come on BiBob you were one of the ones to call Glork's replace out sketch in the dead thread.

I said that I couldn't help but feel that glork's replacement speech was a bit below the belt

you call that getting riled up?
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Post Post #1915 (ISO) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:10 pm

Post by Metal Sonic »

ETL is never townreading me again

:(
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Post Post #1916 (ISO) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:15 pm

Post by EspeciallyTheLies »

In post 1915, Metal Sonic wrote:ETL is never townreading me again

:(

lolnope.
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Post Post #1917 (ISO) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:45 am

Post by EspeciallyTheLies »

In post 1231, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:if i'm wrong about ms, then we've already lost really..

:facepalm:

oh the irony
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Post Post #1918 (ISO) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:10 am

Post by Metal Sonic »

In post 1917, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:
In post 1231, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:if i'm wrong about ms, then we've already lost really..

:facepalm:

oh the irony


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Post Post #1919 (ISO) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:11 am

Post by Metal Sonic »

Image

gchat
oopsies! haha!

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Post Post #1920 (ISO) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:50 am

Post by EspeciallyTheLies »

lol jerks
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Post Post #1921 (ISO) » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:35 am

Post by N »

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