Mini 1782 Game Over

[Ircher]

But, generally, one would expect that to get brought up.

[mhsmith0]

Mass claim on D1 breaks this.

Does it? Say we have mass claim, and still mislynch clumsy and Max...

N1 huntress kills me
N2 garmr jails roshar, Titus or huntress murders nos
N3 lots of options, but probably huntress kills roshar

So unless I get REALLY lucky and jail huntress, or town lynches Mafia d1 or d2, I'd think an early mass claim would destroy the town. The setup isn't built for easy safe claims, but IS built so that it's hard for town to win it at night, and so that anyone forced to role claim early is in serious jeopardy. No cop, no vig, investigatives are countered by ninja, rb countered by jk.

Town won't likely get much from prs, but wolves HAVE to hit prs or they get poe'd by like day 3 or 4. Off the cuff I'd say that's reasonably balanced.

[Ircher]

No, the RB is likely to get lynched in a massclaim.

[Ircher]

With the Even Night JK getting lynched the next night.

[Ircher]

But for the most part, I agree with smith.

Mafia could use a small, not major power increase to compensate. 2-Shot Fruit Vendor might've also worked for mafia.....

[mhsmith0]

I was presuming that all town prs are believed, and that all Mafia claim Vt. It MIGHT be realistically possible that even rb gets lynched as a claim instead, though I think it's a ballsy Mafia to claim even jk just to lynch the rb one day. My guess is it would cut the game down to 6vt and 3 Mafia as lynchables, which simplifies things earlier but basically kills the town by cutting off possibility of useful night actions (again, barring me getting REALLY lucky night one, or town lynching Mafia day one).

Even worse, it simplifies the game for Mafia by making it clear who they shouldn't bother pushing, whereas with l-1 claiming, theyre forced to justify heir pushes to l-1 in the first place. IMO town mass claim on day one would have been super town negative.

[a plain farmer]

This setup doesn't immediately strike me as one that would be broken by a D1 massclaim, but I do agree that it makes it very difficult for scum to claim anything other than VT (not impossible, as we saw, due to *ahem* human fallibility).

I wonder if the setup would benefit from a 1-shot Strongman. An even-night RB and an odd-night JK are probably stronger than a single, every-night JK, since the roles are dispersed over two players and there's the possibility for a second town slot to get the kind of soft towncred a PR confers. A strongman can both ensure the kill gets through and cast doubt on the kill-stopping roles. I don't know if scum's other powers would have to be curtailed for this, or if it would be balanced were it an extra ability of Titus's slot.

[mhsmith0]

I think what this setup really needed was a role cop

I guess the question is whether a 1-2 shot strongman is better or worse than even jailkeeper. Off the cuff I'm not sure, since jk can block the tracker pretty effectively.

I def. agree setup wasn't built to make life easy for fake claims. Otoh, I still think it was otherwise pretty decent for the Mafia. Town roles could easily interfere with each other, there's no easy "follow the cop" type strategy to win just from prs, ninja could create false clears, and Mafia still had day talk, which not all setups allow, etc.

I def. don't think it's balanced in a standard way, but I do think it was reasonably balanced. Unless "four town prs" is by itself massively unbalancing, I'd say the relatively nerfed prs, and the counters built into the Mafia roles, make it balanced compared to other setups I've seen. Eyeballing the mini normal list, I don't think this was more town friendly than 1763, another one that had four town prs and additional Mafia power to balance it.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I think what this setup really needed was a role cop

Ew

[mhsmith0]

I think what this setup really needed was a role cop

Ew

Aw come on I thought it was funny

[mhsmith0]

Wrong emoticon meant
Stupid iPad

[Ircher]

I think what this setup really needed was a role cop

Ew

Aw come on I thought it was funny

Absolutely not a Rolecop tbh.

They did pretty well spotting town prs anyway.

As mod, I think adding 1-Shot Strongman to Titus's role would've been the best solution.

[FA_Q2]

You could probably stand to be less blunt and more forgiving in your criticisms. Also, given that rc was a wolf, and his commentary there was IIRC the first thing that kinda pinged me on his slot, I'm not sure how valid the "mod confirmed us town" argument really is. I think the mod confirmed you weren't both wolves together, but v/w probably gets a similar step in (ditto multi-ball, wolf/sk etc).

Not really. That was a massive logical idiocy in general and I could not call anyone out on it because so many simply nodded their heads in agreement with something that is counter to mafia strategy in general.

[FA_Q2]

Neat thread. Wondering what Bells had to say but I didn't read anything prior to my replacing so it probably doesn't matter.

Doc claim wasn't bad, Titus, but the actual roles in the game made a doc seem too farfetched

Town had a lot of power and scum had no safe PR claims.

Investigative gets countered twice. RB was present. JK tipped. Doc was the only play.

I would have been far more likely to believe a vanilla town.

I was a PR though. The absolute worst part of your claim was not the doc portion though - it was the fact that you claimed even. That did not jive at all nor does it fit with RB/JK. Too much protection and not even distribution with odd/even.

[mhsmith0]

You could probably stand to be less blunt and more forgiving in your criticisms. Also, given that rc was a wolf, and his commentary there was IIRC the first thing that kinda pinged me on his slot, I'm not sure how valid the "mod confirmed us town" argument really is. I think the mod confirmed you weren't both wolves together, but v/w probably gets a similar step in (ditto multi-ball, wolf/sk etc).

Not really. That was a massive logical idiocy in general and I could not call anyone out on it because so many simply nodded their heads in agreement with something that is counter to mafia strategy in general.

That was directed at jake, not you. Fwiw I'd think killing neighbor makes sense if there was like a scum slip or the like in neighbor chat, or for the "I bet neighbor is a pr" take.

[mhsmith0]

Though simply ASSUMING that neighbor MUST be Mafia is of course dumb.

[mhsmith0]

Neat thread. Wondering what Bells had to say but I didn't read anything prior to my replacing so it probably doesn't matter.

Doc claim wasn't bad, Titus, but the actual roles in the game made a doc seem too farfetched

Town had a lot of power and scum had no safe PR claims.

Investigative gets countered twice. RB was present. JK tipped. Doc was the only play.

I would have been far more likely to believe a vanilla town.

I was a PR though. The absolute worst part of your claim was not the doc portion though - it was the fact that you claimed even. That did not jive at all nor does it fit with RB/JK. Too much protection and not even distribution with odd/even.

Odd would have been bad too though, since I'd flipped odd jk. Would have been even more OP on that side. I think the game state was simply unsuited to fake claims; IMO that's a balance to the fairly nerfed town prs and the Mafia counters to them.

[FA_Q2]

Neat thread. Wondering what Bells had to say but I didn't read anything prior to my replacing so it probably doesn't matter.

Doc claim wasn't bad, Titus, but the actual roles in the game made a doc seem too farfetched

Town had a lot of power and scum had no safe PR claims.

Investigative gets countered twice. RB was present. JK tipped. Doc was the only play.

I would have been far more likely to believe a vanilla town.

I was a PR though. The absolute worst part of your claim was not the doc portion though - it was the fact that you claimed even. That did not jive at all nor does it fit with RB/JK. Too much protection and not even distribution with odd/even.

Odd would have been bad too though, since I'd flipped odd jk. Would have been even more OP on that side. I think the game state was simply unsuited to fake claims; IMO that's a balance to the fairly nerfed town prs and the Mafia counters to them.

Well yes, odd would have had the same implications. Hindsight is 20 20 and all but if she was going to claim I would have claimed something without a modifier or just went for vanilla town. As my role was not known - voyeur would not have been a bad idea. Perhaps hider as well - something that is not particularly strong (or at least not as strong as a doc) or a BG (though BG would have to deal with not saving roshar so that is most likely a bad idea.

[Ircher]

Yeah, Hider prob. would've been a good claim.

[N]