Mini Theme 2158: Cards of Destiny Mafia Game Over

[Kaname Date]

VOTE: jjh
scum dodging having to participate in the most critical phase of the game.

[Kaname Date]

VOTE: jjh
scum dodging having to participate in the most critical phase of the game.

i actually think this is a little scummy VOTE: Date

why's that?

[Kaname Date]

I love Michiru :O
I think you've played in some games with me but you were on alts so it's hard to put that in my long term memory.

Also hard claim compulsive gladiator.

I wish that was a fake claim I really do.
There is an upside if I use it 7 irl days into the game, so I am likely going to do that.

sounds fun. i'd enjoy a role like that.

[Kaname Date]

do you really think that he's faking unavailability just to avoid RVS?

no, i meant it as a joke, because RVS tends to be things like...
well, exhibit A is happening. :>

[Kaname Date]

i can see how it would be read that way.

anyways, tris, you seem pleasantly- oh god your avatar frightened me

[Kaname Date]

pleasantly eager to get the actual game going. ahem.
i don't consider a 24 hour absence to be particularly noteworthy in forum mafia. do you think jjh's warning is laced with some self-consciousness?

[Kaname Date]

I hope I didn't just gladiate Date because I really didn't pick up that connection at first.

<3
i didn't either, and i also hope you did not, but that would also be really funny and i would not even be angry.

tris: i don't consider my own point to be particularly strong or worth pursuing with jjh not here to begin with, but i appreciate you engaging it in an honest way.

[Kaname Date]

full disclosure: I have a neighbor chat with tris.

Neither of our alignments are mentioned in the chat and (to my knowledge) there's no outside mechanical weirdness tied to it, just a vanilla neighbor chat.

If anything happens in there that gives me cause for concern, I'll let y'all know.

my instinct with neighbour chats is usually to keep them secret until outing them has a specific purpose. what's your reason for doing so here?

[Kaname Date]

what an endearing answer.

[Kaname Date]

VOTE: DoctorPepper
anything less hypothetical that's caught your fancy yet, Pepper?

[Kaname Date]

VOTE: DoctorPepper
anything less hypothetical that's caught your fancy yet, Pepper?

Is this a serious vote?

yes. i was considering pooky, but i don't know if i feel like engaging a wall like that right now. Pepper's been giving opinions but not giving

opinions

, you know?

[Kaname Date]

they

could

. i consider that less likely than there just being neighbours, especially in a Maria game. but that's what i mean about idly voicing hypotheticals. it could be or it couldn't be, but what does that get you?

Pepper: that's true enough.

[Kaname Date]

i don't think Pepper was saying he thinks you're scum with tris.

i also joined this game because i like Maria.

[Kaname Date]

wait, Ampharos is in the hood. yes. you're the one who cruelly gladiated my evil twin, Prune.

[Kaname Date]

wait, Ampharos is in the hood. yes. you're the one who cruelly gladiated my evil twin, Prune.

Y'all have friends?

no.

[Kaname Date]

I have determined that there's not a way to up the posts per page on this website.

This disappoints me.

Well In my experience, if you read the same page twice it doubles the number of posts on that page.

fish is one of my favorite shitposters, because he's actually funny.

[Kaname Date]

i've pretty much accepted that i'm always going to scumread FL as a default, and i acknowledge that as unearned, so i'll pretend i think he's town. that's mafia, right?

all of the tris townreads felt voiced around the same time, to me. tris was also my first TR this game, though i don't remember if i said so. is the timing of Ampharos' read so strange when it came right after its trigger?

[Kaname Date]

if you wanted to cause some discussion, responding to my question rather than deflecting by saying you didn't really mean it might be productive. :>

[Kaname Date]

I'll take tris, Kaname Date, Gamma Emerald, Hayasaka, and Ampharos for town right now

well, jjh has my vote.
of confidence.

[Kaname Date]

Flavor's play has so far been very strange. did he actually say he was trying to slayer's gambit to get the game rolling, or did i imagine that?

[Kaname Date]

i actually liked Gamma's questioning of Ampharos, the wagon that formed there confuses me, but it's actually tris's vote there that surprised me the most.
i don't actually think i'm comfortable TRing Ampharos after that reads post, but it's difficult to explain why. they do have a really, really good handle on the mindsets of players, even correctly reading my cautious "why's that" to tris when she voted me early on

as

caution. because of course i did think she'd merely misunderstood i was kidding, but i wanted to be sure it was that and not lead her answer.

need more time with Ampharos to see what's what, the most i can say now is a hope they're indeed town.
Flavor Leaf has so far not done anything exciting, in spite of an apparent desire to get things moving, and is also hesitant to put reads down as though we need to be worried about that day 1.

i'm surprised to have gotten vocal support on the Pepper vote. that really was spaghetti flung at the wall to the highest degree, but at the same time there hasn't been anything else i've felt too strongly about.

[Kaname Date]

290
why is the progression bad? thinking a player is a newbie and realizing they really are not is often going to change a read considerably.

[Kaname Date]

re: Date's mindset on defending the neighborhood as actually being extant

Wolves can townside or scumside with mechanical information just as they can with their reads. A townsiding wolf is probably looking for maximum mechanical accuracy in order to try to buy towncred; a scumsiding wolf is just... not gonna make those posts. Let town lead themselves down the rabbit hole to their death, if that's what they're gonna do.

I PERSONALLY prefer to mechanically scumside as a wolf whenever possible, and thus my gut instinct is to lend Date some mild towncred for making a post that it's really easy for a wolf to just Not Make... but at the end of the day, it depends on what sort of player Date is. Which is not something I'm familiar with.

i realize that knowing my main would not help, given if i understand correctly, you don't really play on ms.
but i've never been able to lie about my own mechanical beliefs as scum, though that's just my personal style. it

is

sometimes useful given an unfortunate tendency for players to associate having similar mechanical beliefs with being the same alignment. in my experience it takes rare skill to successfully argue for and use a mechanical stance that actively hurts town.

though, as i write this i realize that in my last scumgame, we were forced to argue for mechanical decisions that benefited us explicitly... so i guess i'm full of shit. still, it was a much more dramatic situation than whether or not neighbours exist in a game.

anyways, i didn't like Pepper bringing up the possibility while not actually appearing paranoid of tris and Ampharos. at least, of off memory. it seemed unecessary.

[Kaname Date]

Hayasaka, i'm interested in reading this guideline to gamesolving as a group.

[Kaname Date]

i am so very sorry Maria.

[Kaname Date]

I'll take tris, Kaname Date, Gamma Emerald, Hayasaka, and Ampharos for town right now

well, jjh has my vote.
of confidence.

why does this town list give you confidence in jjh? it looks mostly like a list people who have been actively around aside from those who are shitposting and FL?

i'm not sure if that is true or not, but the list has me on it, which is always a good thing. it also has Gamma, who i believe had gathered some votes around then.
also, it's nice to see jjh.

[Kaname Date]

The tiny hydra sheeping me feels off because they are a hydra and I rarely see hydra consolidate with other players this early over each other. Even late game hydra tend to do that which is why they aren't very fun to play with.

is this about D&D? this is an interesting point i don't think i've considered re: hydrae before.

[Kaname Date]

Okay, so Gamma is a top red read, not a 3rd. Non ordered tiers.

Just making sure. There was potential for you to go along with them being ranked, and I probably would have pushed harder.

But see how I drop the point?

Don’t feel like having the circular conversation, and now I have time to think about it.

are you going to be this condescending the whole game? :>

[Kaname Date]

like I'm TRing you at this point but your posts hurt my eyes

i think i TR pooky.

[Kaname Date]

Is it bad that I want to vote gamma just so the wagon will dissolve because it can't fade there and we can move on to someone else.

VOTE: gamma

i love playing with you, fish.

i'm a player who only kind of knows FL (my main is Chara) and while i'm not confident at all, i do see the town in him enough that i'm willing to let him be and see what he does.

[Kaname Date]

i forget who asked, but i liked Gamma's Ampharos push because it seemed pretty sudden, like he saw something that seemed weird and wanted to go after it immediately, and upon seeing that the original premise was wrong also gave it up quickly. Ampharos was also not getting any heat before then, so jumping out and getting attention for that isn't the ideal scum opener.

[Kaname Date]

confuse wasn't a good word, now that i think about it, because it's about as expected as an early game wagon could be. player shows up, does a thing that's showy/incorrect, gets votes. tris voting there hurt my read of her a bit but given tris's playstyle i don't know if it's AI in hindsight. i still like her reason for joining me on Pepper.

[Kaname Date]

she stood out to me because i was really liking her play and votes specifically.
i disagree with the reason for the wagon myself but i don't think that means they're bad votes, now.
also, Fish voting there to apparently dissolve it is just very funny.

[Kaname Date]

yes, you really do. i can't recommend the unspoiled experience of the somnium files enough.
i really TR 509. call me contrarian. i like the retroactive explanation and the "aha" feeling.

[Kaname Date]

I should probably articulate the reasoning behind some reads later

Rn they're just all in my head


Anyone particularly interested in my reads on anyone else?

i'm interested in anything you have to say!

Hayasaka: you didn't do anything i would be mad about.

566: can confirm. also, townpoints for Mars.

[Kaname Date]

ugh. i'm gonna be light SRing Ampharos for the whole game, partly in reaction to the townreads she's accruing. what makes this difficult is she's working with a different site culture than what i'm used to. and her play looks high-level, which isn't AI but does always succeed in pressing the paranoia button.
i agree with her takes, i think. to echo her thoughts on Flavor Leaf, i need to see her really push something.

[Kaname Date]

like I'm TRing you at this point but your posts hurt my eyes

i think i TR pooky.

Why
Not saying you can’t, just confused what strikes you as town in his posting

Pooky doesn't like FL's posting, but comments that he TRs him all the same. the reluctant TR vibe of this post struck me.

[Kaname Date]

I have a surprise.

VOTE: 2 Pooky

this is far less exciting and appeals to my ego much less than your Ampharos vote.

pedit: ah, so that's how it is.

[Kaname Date]

I was causing some intrigue. I’d still go Ampharos if ya think we got something.

how much is my opinion worth to you?

[Kaname Date]

Mars: i don't use single-game meta. there are too many factors besides alignment that can account for dramatic difference between games.
Daenerys: does activity play a large part in your Ampharos read?

[Kaname Date]

it ended up happening because it's taken a while for the thread to lock, but with the amount of time left there was little reason not to hear final thoughts from D&D and get a claim.

[Kaname Date]

alts are fun, but keeping them secret is too hard, as evidenced by slipping and my namedropping myself as soon as i had to mention even the tiniest bit of meta.

[Kaname Date]

As soon as you start to consider the information when making votes you start to lose information.

Because at that point you can rule out why someone voted someone as they were "voting to gain information".


The extent of what I care about information is I won't post wall cases until I absolutely need to. This is mainly because if I just hard town cased someone to the moon and back it disrupts the natural flow of reads way too heavily. Although I don't have any reads I could explain in a wall this game, just general theory talk.

it sounds like we have similar perspectives on this. i hate information votes because they skew the potential information too heavily by existing.

also, if D&D are town and the thread

had

locked, it's the same as saying you don't care about what they have to say about their own wagon.
and i don't intend that line to be as dramatic as it sounds now that i look at it, but still.

[Kaname Date]

i feel like i missed something.

[Kaname Date]

yes. unless you gladiate a player i don't townread. then it's good play.

the only offwagon i confidently TR is Hayasaka. let me see if i can remember what my other reads this game actually are.

[Kaname Date]

okay, VMP and exactly one half of this fillet of fish survive the night 1 TR culling. let's begin again.

[Kaname Date]

wait, i actually think it's a bad idea if you do that because obviously whoever you gladiate goes down unless you gladiate someone really towny or cool, in which case we probably just have a tvt gladiate.

[Kaname Date]

but i like you holding your hand over the button to make NM dance for you.

[Kaname Date]

god, i have never once rolled gladiator in any game, and i would really love the opportunity to ruin someone's day in that specific manner.

[Kaname Date]

@KD, what why did you make that comment? Sarcastically using the word, “endearing” doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me. so why that word, specifically?

~M

it wasn't sarcastic. i answered that way because it made me like Amy more, but in an out of game sort of way.

also, i didn't feel the need to vote D&D. they had emough SRs that they felt inevitable whether or not i did anything, and i wasn't scumreading them more than anyone else.

[Kaname Date]

In what way do you think he was being “condescending” here because I’m not seeing it?

~M

it was a joke about FL's ego. i didn't mean anything much by it, besides the post being representative.

VOTE: DoctorPepper

[Kaname Date]

i would appreciate not being shot. it would not be good.

in any case, Hayasaka if it wouldn't affect your role i would like more time before gladiates happen.

pedit: NM is pretty much only readable on his votes for me.

[Kaname Date]

actually, i don't want Amy shot either. if she's town i want to see more of her, and if she's scum i think wagoning her would be more valuable than a shot.

also, day 1 scum elims lose games. don't get too confident yet.

[Kaname Date]

i don't think D&D presses FL on the tris SR so hard if they're a team.
though that thought is secondhand off of Fish's interpretation. i need to look at how it was done.

[Kaname Date]

I’m tinfoil looking into a Kamane-Ampharos pairing

is it

that

tinfoil, FL?

pedit: apparently my interactions with D&D were bad. i can sort of see it from the outsider's perspective, but i trust FL about as far as i could throw him. i don't like his outward paranoia about being wrong here.
the argument i'm scum with D&D i think ignores that i should have been prepared for that scumflip.

[Kaname Date]

Mars's suspicion i buy more, especially with what she decided to question. i'm wondering what her opinion is on my response.

[Kaname Date]

also, Fish, i am polite and friendly to everyone. except for FL, apparently. but that's because i think he knows any insults are only in jest. :>

Gamma claiming the same flavour as flipped scum is definitely ballsy if he's scum himself. i wouldn't locktown him on it but he still gets a leantown.

that does make me wonder if it's possible our cards were assigned based on drawing from an actual tarot deck, shuffling them back in every time. that could lead to double flavours.
this isn't me encouraging anyone to out their own cards, though i see what prompted Gamma to.

[Kaname Date]

i do think FL is probably town, but i can't trust him even after the scum hammer with this solve. if Amy is scum my paranoia does go way down.

[Kaname Date]

mood, though.

[Kaname Date]

What interested me was that his post was directed to DnD, so what was it about that post in particular that you viewed as representative of his “ego”?

i don't think it registered to me that the post was directed to D&D. it was just specifically the line "but you see how i drop the point?" which sounded condescending, like he's talking to a child a bit.
but i'll re-iterate it wasn't intended as a serious criticism of FL in an out of game way.

[Kaname Date]

Amy, @KD , why are you encouraging gladiate over a regular execution? I agree with Tris that it’s suboptimal unless you have a wagon with excessive resistance and yeah, don’t like either’s reaction to the gladiate.

~M

because Hayasaka claimed a mechanical benefit to using the gladiate.

and no, i don't TR NM. my post about not gladiating immediately is because i think it will rob the day of meaningful information. ideally the gladiate comes at a time where the elim for the day is already set.

[Kaname Date]

Why are you specifying in an “out of game sort of way”? But I do buy that I mistook that for sarcasm.

I think DnD were far more scummier than Pepper was yesterday, so not sure if how I feel about this answer.

because Amy's response didn't really effect my read. it's endearing in an out of game sort of way because it was an out of game feeling.

on Pepper: not my only SR, but was my preferred. however, almost assuredly town given the vengeful claim. it's almost moot because as someone said, the correct play is to elim the vengeful anyway.

[Kaname Date]

Who do you think is getting “too confident” here, FL?

I don’t see that anyone is really being “too confident” rn about this?

the whole line about day 1 scum elims losing games is something i repeat often, and it boils down to a belief that towns who achieve that coveted d1 scum elim start narrowing their play down to cover only that first flipped scum's interactions, thus limiting info to only the first day of the game. it also refers to my own belief that some towns get complacent after that initial success.

so it's not really about anyone, is the short answer.

[Kaname Date]

I’m tinfoil looking into a Kamane-Ampharos pairing

is it

that

tinfoil, FL?

pedit: apparently my interactions with D&D were bad. i can sort of see it from the outsider's perspective, but i trust FL about as far as i could throw him.

i don't like his outward paranoia about being wrong here.

the argument i'm scum with D&D i think ignores that i should have been prepared for that scumflip.

Mars's suspicion i buy more, especially with what she decided to question. i'm wondering what her opinion is on my response.

You’re tr my suspicion on you more than FL’s? Wrt the bolded, what don’t you like about it? Can you elaborate on that?

But we can’t possibly know that was the case right? You’re asking us to take your word for that.

Can you make a current readslist with explanations for those reads? I think that would be super helpful.

Thanks.

~Mars

the posts you picked to question me on fit with my understanding of you as a player and how you solve, and i could see why you were asking about them. that and i already had you as a good TR from day 1. i should probably also take D&D into account here thought truthfully i hadn't factored it into the read yet.

as for FL, he

is

probably town but i cannot shake this feeling that he's performing for someone. but the fact that i find it so hard to trust him is actually also a towntell, maybe.

also, what i mean by "scum me should have been prepared for D&D's scumflip" is that i didn't do anything to save D&D or condemn them for towncred, i just let the wagon happen.

[Kaname Date]

town: VMP, Hayasaka
towny: Gamma, tris, Fish
vengeful town: Pepper
Flavor Leaf tier: FL

leftovers: NM, Amy, jjh

jjh probably deserves to be higher but i've done zero real examination of the slot.

[Kaname Date]

i'm only convinced he's town because elimming him is the correct play. assuming scum is aware of that, claiming vengeful is just a shortcut to Pepper being eliminated.

if i were to say the claim makes him town and therefore we should elim someone else, then the claim no longer makes him town because i've just given reason for scum to make the claim.

[Kaname Date]

i was under the impression this wasn't a bastard game.

eliminating Pepper to hit NM still seems like the ideal outcome of this day to me.

[Kaname Date]

sorry all, i should be here tonight. anything pressing?

[Kaname Date]

please get a claim on the target before hammering the venge.

[Kaname Date]

i am considering claiming here.

also, i won't be around today after all. i'm not feeling well. that has a bit to do why i'm considering the claim.

FL, your read on us makes sense to me.

[Kaname Date]

I mean, for surviving town members, feel free to convince me otherwise.

I just think that an NM venge doesn't do much for town

if we keep avoiding killing NM because it's low info he's never going to die.
given the PoE that i have, though i haven't given it another look today bar one read i don't want to talk about, i'm very happy with a NM shot.

also, jjh, what do you mean by unmasking me? i already outed my main.

[Kaname Date]

it's because i was happy to see you, and said so. i have not played with you i believe but you were a name i recognized as a player i liked anyways, and that's pretty notable.

[Kaname Date]

i haven't done Amy the service of going through her posting today, and she does deserve that.
but barring it making me think she's more likely scum, i still would not want her shot today.

NM is not allowing himself to be readable, but i'm aware he can be. and it isn't true that he doesn't contribute as scum, either.
he's just really null, and in a game with an amount of townreads i'm happy with, NM is at the bottom.
i disagree very hard with the stance that the shot needs to maximize information.
i also have a mechanical reason for arguing this.

i haven't put in the effort for analyzing Amy properly as a D&D buddy, however, so i'd like to do that first. tomorrow, i think.

[Kaname Date]

also @anyone, let me know if there's something specific you want my input on, i apologize for still not having read everything in a way that isn't piecemeal. i will.

[Kaname Date]

for the record i also do not want ampharos shot today

i ALSO do not want KD shot today, mostly because i want N_M shot today

i think i would enjoy being scumpartners with you. handshakes for not wanting each other shot today.

and i suppose it is worth noting i also really like how Pepper is handling his shot.

[Kaname Date]

i don't think Amy's posting on D&D particularly attaches them as partners. it seems like she could have done something besides vote NM to get a stronger counterwagon for D&D, but that's not the supreme indicator of alignment i would like it to be. she might just have not predicted D&D would need the help. still, it's pretty much the same as what i remember my own feelings about D&D being which is why i'm unsurprised to see the two of us lumped together this day.

Amy, i think it would be faster to ask than to try and comb through your ISO again for it, but what was the reason for my fall in your reads, again?

[Kaname Date]

I maintained the maximum online rating in Mario Kart Wii for about a month straight using exclusively the Wii Wheel.

I was one game away from Mythic on MTG Arena before I went on a 6 game losing streak and then rotation made my deck terrible.

I can bend my pinky all the way back to touch the back of my hand.

My life is nothing if not a series of odd flexes.

i don't... love this post, though. doubling down on the odd flex joke in a soft self-defense kind of way just has a little too much self-consciousness for me to continue reading it as a joke.

[Kaname Date]

also @anyone, let me know if there's something specific you want my input on, i apologize for still not having read everything in a way that isn't piecemeal. i will.

Yes, I would really like to know what history outside this game if any, you have with either member of DnD. Depending on your answer, I have a possible theory wrt your interactions with that slot or more accurately, their interactions with you. Thanks.

~Mars

i have no experience with lilith before this game.
SirCakez i've been in games with before, but i don't remember any real specifics of his playstyle.

on 627, i read it, i also don't think that counts as evidence of NM being a lockbuddy. did someone argue that?
i do think it's easily something scum could say about a buddy.

[Kaname Date]

my concern with Amy's readslist is how i became a PoE scumread when she was TRing me before. that alone isn't a problem, but when there are two tiers of TRs she describes as weak, i wonder how i managed to fall so far. it doesn't sound like the read changed due to D&D interactions.

[Kaname Date]

i must disagree that scum FL has found himself freaking out over being responsible for miseliminating a town NM. i don't think that's likely at all.

ugh, i need to properly catch up. i felt the pressure going down and got really lazy.

[Kaname Date]

bleh

i'm stuck in this mental rut where i really REALLY wanna see a Not_Mafia flip and it's monopolizing my entire worldview

because if he's town, there are two players in this game that i'm just HARD misreading

and i don't like that.

what makes you think he's going to flip town?
to follow, what makes you think your reads are that off base?

pedit: understandable, maybe, but my point is that i don't consider it a scumtell for you.

[Kaname Date]

DnD just sounds pretty nonchalant about this, where as I’d expect them to have a stronger reaction if NM is a buddy.

~M

i feel the opposite. this sort of partner-hedging is common when scum is trying to avoid giving tells, especially on a partner that's difficult to read like NM.

[Kaname Date]

more an abundance of villagery behavior on the part of the rest of the game than anyone else.

i look at other slots, i can think of a couple of decent reasons to call them a villager. i can approach the game from that angle

i look at your slot and i get... not a ton. very medium feelings. your posts are fine, i find myself nodding along plenty, but there's nothing i can find that i could point to and say "i don't think a wolf could/would do this"

hence, PoE

alright, but you just said your reads on players like tris/Fish (i believe it's these two) are based on vibes more than something you feel really comfortable with. have you looked at those two again to try and resolve that?
this especially grabs my attention because you appear very concerned of giving wrongful TRs.
obligatory: it's very possible i've missed posts this game. i apologize.

[Kaname Date]

Tris/Ampharos team

They are literally just neighbors.

if anything, i'd call that sequence of posts an anti-partner tell for the two of them. besides the neighbourhood thing.

[Kaname Date]

FL's posting smells a little bit like fear. am i overvaluing his scumgame too much when i say it feels like a towntell? i'm unwilling to put a lot of stock into reading him from this angle but i

am

curious what he and those who know him think about that.

[Kaname Date]

Like I really only gladiated DrP who I thought was town because not lynching Vengeful townies feels kinda anti-town to me?
It's like getting a suicide bomb role pm, claiming that role while you're in the POE getting town read for it then not using it.

bleh I am sorry I feel like I misplayed.

no, i agree with what you did. if the claim got Pepper off the hook it'd mean the possibility of it being a successful scum ploy. it does suck and i get why you feel bad, though.

[Kaname Date]

ultimately i would be happier flipping both of them at some point. Amy seems like the type who's make that sarcastic post in games in general. it's her attitude towards her reads that's giving me pause. i don't use this term a lot, but her PoE explanation, her comments about how she formed some of her townreads (Fish and tris), and her worry about NM being town feel sort of cognitively dissonant when taken all together.

[Kaname Date]

i'm disappointed because my read on FL was "very probably town" and i wanted it to be correct. :<

[Kaname Date]

i need to reset now. i suppose that's what night's for?

but i'm here, so if you want to talk about it, i recall you took Gamma out of the PoE for his claim. why is he back in it?
i'm sure i could just read your ISO for this but... i tried and couldn't find it right away and you're here.

[Kaname Date]

FL, do you get every dead player, or just the ones you vote?

[Kaname Date]

also, if this is a gambit, i look forward to FL having to fake paraphrase a bunch of posts from dead players, because i am going to keep bothering him about it.

but no, this is a wild claim if scum.
it's still basically my definition of a hood, even if it's a hood with dead players, so FL calling it not a hood on what's a technicality to me and VMP outing as a result has me a bit :/.

[Kaname Date]

i'm not mad at anyone, i see how it all happened. more like :<.

my theory regarding the double flavour is still that Maria's rules don't prevent us from having drawn the same cards, but that might become clearer with more flips.

[Kaname Date]

why are we going to lose?

[Kaname Date]

I’m town

[Kaname Date]

Also I'm just fucking tuned out rn, I feel like everyone is refusing to work together on any level, I'll see you fucks on day 3.

in what way is everyone refusing to work together?

[Kaname Date]

why does the thread keep exploding in a different way every time i check it?
last i left, it was with an NM or Amy shot, both of which i was fine with. i guess this is a sign should... actually be here, but i've been busy.
i'll catch up now, shouldn't take long. but does anyone want to give me a rundown just for fun?

[Kaname Date]

i'd rather have Hayasaka's night action than Pepper in the PT.

[Kaname Date]

and i'd really like Pepper in there.
can also confirm my role matches my tarot well.

[Kaname Date]

1867: i am ambivalent. i don't scumread you. i'd prefer NM.
1880: come on, i'm playing on an alt with normal pronouns! surely you could avoid the only pronoun for me that's entirely incorrect? ;>
i'm surprised you notice me enough to know my active times, though.

[Kaname Date]

and i'd really like Pepper in there.
can also confirm my role matches my tarot well.

Do you think Devil (assuming it’s real) matches bus driver?

~M

yes, actually.

D&D's devil looks like the upright Devil. Gamma's sounds like reversed Devil.

[Kaname Date]

even if Gamma's scum, i believe he's trueclaiming his flavour.

[Kaname Date]

what prevents you from just using both on dr p?

for some reason i assumed this wasn't possible... but yes, why can't you?

and if you can't, i'd rather you put the roleblock vote on Pepper and the PT vote on Hayasaka, even though neither will function. or just... unvote with the roleblock?

[Kaname Date]

i think it's kind of ridiculous to get this upset over NM being venged, FL. even if you don't think it's optimal or a shitty idea.
not commenting on the rest. this thread is getting hard to read. i'm just going to wait for the day to end.

[Kaname Date]

FL's claim is going to be a nightmare to continue to fake as scum. i don't believe he's ever scum, but it should be verified anyway. the dead town can do their part with that.

[Kaname Date]

alright, i wasn't thinking far enough ahead. Gamma's a claimed bus driver, so having him continue to be alive if we aren't sure he's town is a bad situation, which i believe is a major part of FL's point. i don't a good enough read of Gamma on my own, personally, but the mechanical argument for killing him today is there.
don't mind me, just perpetually behind the eight ball.

[Kaname Date]

that's the thing, really. you can fake conversations, but without some ridiculous effort it'd be hard for scum FL to uphold that. and that's without any possible private information shared between two town scummers, one dead and one alive.
it sucks for town FL too. being the relay is thankless, i have too much experience with that.

[Kaname Date]

hi everyone, we have to eliminate mafia today or we lose. going to sleep on things, i'll be back tomorrow at the earliest i can, i promise not to be as disconnected as yesterday.

[Kaname Date]

wait, my math is off. we're fine

f

it is indeed three scum total. this is why i'm going to bed.

[Kaname Date]

hold on, i'd rather not end the day here, it just started. did something happen?

[Kaname Date]

cool. i'm catching up on the day's events now. i saw Hayasaka's claim, but it was "saw Amy visiting Tris" so i didn't understand it. did he mean the reverse?

also: if you could have someone's alignment revealed right now, who would you pick?

[Kaname Date]

hello Gamma, same question to you?

[Kaname Date]

hahaha. of course it is. looks like you and FL agree.

if everyone else could also answer when they see this, that would be great.
i'd also like to request to be willboosted tonight, FL.

[Kaname Date]

Hayasaka tracked Ampharos to Tris. Ampharos makes their target target them at night. Ampharos death soft guilties Tris because if Tris was making a night kill, it would kill Ampharos.

But there are other possibilities. ScumYou, ScumBEF, scumJJH, ScumMe, ScumNancy, ScumGamma, Scum basically anyone could have killed Ampharos and the same results would have happened, and both Hayasaka and Nancy can’t seem to comprehend that.

i see, thanks for the explanation. basically, Ampharos could simply have been the nightkill who also happened to target tris, which is why it's a softguilty.

but you'd rather Gamma's alignment flips than Hayasaka's?

[Kaname Date]

caught up, okay. so you're jester. thanks for taking the time to answer me anyways, as it seems to have nothing to do with your wincon.
....still, can i have that willboost anyway? :>

[Kaname Date]

...wait, no, it still feels like you're town and were lying.
this game is ruining my brain.

[Kaname Date]

i don't have much to add here, i guess. flip tris or Gamma.

but i'd still like to hear everyone's replies to who they would want alignment flipped in this situation.

[Kaname Date]

oh, yes, Fish did claim rb as i was checking in.

[Kaname Date]

Fish, who do you want flipped? Gamma again?
also, FL, have you considered willboosting me at all? :>

[Kaname Date]

...wait, no, it still feels like you're town and were lying.
this game is ruining my brain.

We need to form a support group post-game.

~M

this is fine. i'm down.

it's not at all the same as FL's situation, but i had like... all of one good scumgame, and now those who are aware of it think i'm some sort of god of scumplay when that wasn't the case at all.

to be honest, this feels... open and shut. Hayasaka missing stuff doesn't really ring that badly to me, since i'm also still trying to wrap aspects of this game's mechanics around my brain.

like VMP's traffic analyst isn't even a traffic analyst. seriously, how shitty is that? scum can just avoid using nighttalk and only speak during the day to avoid it?
Mars, did you not mention this because mentioning it renders your role useless?

same with FL being a jester claim and also a medium. it's so much.

i guess we'll see what tris flips.

pedit: hi Venus, you're Aero, right?

[Kaname Date]

Let alone that in a scenario that 3 scum are left it means we lose if we are wrong today and you are saying that, nope.

~Venus

but FL wasn't even in consideration to be eliminated today. why does he need to fakeclaim to survive one more day?

[Kaname Date]

Mars: i did read all of your discussion (and Fish's answers) and questions, but unfortunately i can just say: yes, directly willboosting me would still be ideal.
also, i'd rather not be added to a hood, i doubt i'd be any help in there. but thanks for asking for me.

Gamma, Mars, i'm tired of reading this argument between you two. i don't care who started it or who is continuing it.

[Kaname Date]

is it bad i kind of TR Gamma?
i would rather tris go down today.

a VC would be nice, but i don't have the will to put one together myself.

[Kaname Date]

unfortunately, i'm not sure it's something that can be dealt with in the thread. i have my own opinions but they're not ones i'd like to have a discussion about here, but i do think it'd be better to avoid engaging with him. if he's scum he's going down, i can guarantee that. just, probably after tris because i prefer her today.

i commented that you didn't reveal exactly how your role works because it'd tell scum how to avoid it (did you confirm this?) and that it's a very weird role and not really what my understanding of traffic analyst is. which, in this game is not surprising, but it is worth noting. a vanilla traffic analyst shouldn't care if the player ever posted in their PT, it should just detect the PT. a role that only detects on a night by night basis if a PT is being

used

is something i can honestly say i've never seen before.

i do hate when players personally insult each other. i didn't like FL's doing it either. but your role itself

is

absolutely a really confusing one.

[Kaname Date]

pedit: hi Venus, you're Aero, right?

Nope I am shiro

~Venus

hello Shiro, sorry about that.

[Kaname Date]

Gamma still has not yet cased himself and/or others like I suggested and he’s only throwing shade at me and possibly FL.

I would absolutely love it if Gamma were to obvtown but he continues to do everything possible to keep pinging me.

So if it’s not Gamma than who? Who have I been mistakingly tr? That’s my dilemma.

~M

i don't TR him enough to not want to flip him, but i'd rather tris.
though i'd be more sure if i knew where votes were at. i supposed i could put in the effort...

like, i think Gamma is more likely scum than Fish, or Hayasaka, or any other player i have twinges of paranoia about. but i'd rather worry about that on day 4.
i suppose i should make sure tris is actually like for sure... scum. in the name of not being lazy.

i have time while i wait for my sushi.

[Kaname Date]

but for what it's worth, i don't think it's strange that tris's role would confirm to her but not to the other player she's claiming to protect. it' her role, so her having the confirmations make sense. giving a protect target information about a protect on them isn't something usually seen, and would be giving credence to a role that the setup might be built around being an uncomfirmed role.

tris gave the same theory, now that i look.
i keep looking at 2176 and i'm getting nothing.

[Kaname Date]

Yes, BEF rb, makes Tris 100% guiltied because that proves she couldn’t have been bus driven.

well... not quite. if Amy was the nightkill target initially, any scum could have killed her, so tris is not 100% guiltied.

and i agree with FL that it was possible for her to be the kill target. so, softguilty at best. this is why i'm reading now.

[Kaname Date]

why is jjh definitely definitely town, again? i've just been accepting that but i don't remember why now.

[Kaname Date]

Gamma were scum here, why wouldn’t he just not post in his hypothetical PT the exact night he expects us to investigate him, so it’s obviously not a clear and yes, itclearly not a guilty.

but how would Gamma know to avoid posting? as far as i am aware, you didn't claim this aspect of your role until today.

i am also aware the wiki does list it as a possible variation, however, though i had never heard of that before.

[Kaname Date]

also, i know there is a lot from your recent posts i am not specifically responding to. i have to pick a choose things i have something to say about, i don't have the focus to touch on everything in long posts, even when i am completely reading them. but if i miss something important by all means, point it out.

[Kaname Date]

no, Haya and Fish can all be telling the truth.

as an example: i'm scum, i target Amy to kill her. Amy targets tris.
Amy forces all actions tris makes to target Amy. tris does anything besides a kill.

result: Amy is dead from my kill, Amy still targeted tris. just wasn't murdered by tris, since tris didn't make a killing action.
this is what FL was arguing, i believe.

and yes, if Gamma is the other scum, him being rbed would mean he couldn't have made the kill... but that's an if. so still not a hard guilty.

pedit: ah, alright.

[Kaname Date]

this is also why i asked about your certainty on jjh. i know he hasn't been reading everything, or at least missing mechanical stuff, but he claims tris is 100% the mechanical vote to make today even though FL argued this was not the case.

i'd like to see more talk about this with this in mind considering the stakes of today's elimination.

[Kaname Date]

like, we have 12 entire days. i consider this important. even with FL's V/LA he's going to come back before we're running out of time.

i've been letting this game fall by the wayside, and i apologize for that. but if you and others are down to play this day through, let's play it.

pedit: aw, thank you.
my analysis right now is probably not great because i am still working on getting myself fully into things and rereading/reading posts i've missed. but i'll do my best.

i didn't fully ISO jjh, but i would certainly feel better about him if more of his analysis had made it to the thread than it has.

[Kaname Date]

Mars: okay, i believe you're right in that Gamma could have reasonably believed that you needed a post from him to guilty him and could have avoided that. so it's not an inno.

also, it may be a good idea to simply ask Maria directly if you would get a positive result on the player who is making the crier messages. just to dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

Gamma: do you have a read on jjh?

[Kaname Date]

So that much is definitely clear, right? Gamma did 100% not kill Amy, unless BEF is lying and I don’t see why he’d do that, plus he’s super obvtown here for like a gazillion reasons.

~M

yes, agree. i find it hard to conceive of Fish scum, and Gamma being a bus drive strongman is just mean.

[Kaname Date]

I made this point before, but the wiki says “CAN communicate”. Have you not heard the joke about the teacher who responds to “can I use the bathroom” with “I don’t know, can you?” Based on the Wiki, the role shouldn’t get a different result if someone doesn’t actually use it. Now we all know by now Maria didn’t use any level of common sense in role definitions and I’ll be reaming her post game for sure for that + horrible vote tracking, but you can only expect so much, and the fact the role deviates that hard is imo a bit bastard

read the rest of the wiki page. there is a part about theme variations that matches up to VMP's claimed role.

[Kaname Date]

jjh is locktown for me. I reread that day 2 start message during the time my gambit was happening and figured he was the one who sent it, and I town locked him from that point on

could you explain this in more depth? why can't scum make that crier message?

[Kaname Date]

it doesn't let you see who they targeted?

[Kaname Date]

it doesn't let you see who they targeted?

Yes of course but not who they communicated with, so we wouldn’t be able to find out their buddy iow.

~M

this is still useful. if a dead scum roleblocker for example is targeted by you, and they targeted someone, that player is probably not scum. am i misunderstanding how it works?

[Kaname Date]

I would appreciate it if everyone who hasn't already would claim their flavour though

I am the high priestess

i thought you were the hierophant?

[Kaname Date]

aaah, thank you.
does anyone care about my interpretations for whether everyone is the reversed or upright version of their tarot? i have a shitty list of notes.

[Kaname Date]

Scum
D&D: The Devil - upright
- 1 shot action negator/mailman
- can PM a message to another player through the mod
- bringing negative tendencies to light, attachment

Town
Pooky: The Magician - upright
- ascetic innocent child Arcana cop
- power, focus, significant ability

DrPepper: Strength - reversed
- vengeful/learns number of players that visit them at night
- self-doubt, inner strength, raw emotional reaction

Not Mafia: Justice - upright
- whatever the hell the first part means
- passive [balance] vote when being voted while not voting another player
- justice, fairness, an equal measured response

Ampharos: The Lovers - reversed
- neighbour with tris
- even night targeted redirector
- hated or loved based on action of target
- self-love, disharmony, strained relationships

???
tris: The Lovers - upright
- neighbourizer/conditional BP with neighbours
- choices, unity of two forces

VMP: The Chariot - reversed
- traffic analyst/coroner
- powerlessness, lack of direction

Flavor Leaf: The Fool - reversed?
- has two votes/medium
- one roleblocks, the other brings the player he is voting into his medium PT during the day
- at night deaths automatically go to his PT
- maybe also a jester
- i'm at a loss regarding the tarot meaning

jjh: High Priestess - upright
- crier/targets Arcana and role hits corresponding player
- subconsciousness (we sleep at night?), intuition, divine wisdom

Hayasaka: The Emperor - reversed
- gladiator/conditional tracker
- domination, asserting control

Gamma: The Devil - reversed
- odd-night bus drive
- freedom from limitations, detachment

Fish: Unclaimed/Tower? - reversed?
- non-consecutive roleblocker
- 1-shot day commuter
- resisting change, delaying disaster

other notes:
the Devil and the Lovers counterpart each other, both representing a relationship between two people and visually echoing each other. it makes sense they're the only Arcana with multiple holders. anyone with more knowledge than me might be able to elaborate on this.




this isn't useful, but i went through the trouble so i'm going to post it for interest's sakem i was hoping something about claims could be discovered but while things

fit

, a lot of it is a fairly loose interpretation from me.
but it's enough i'm unwilling to claim my own arcana today.

[Kaname Date]

jjh: i'll take your word for it! i'm working with limited info. :>

Fish: cool. your role certainly fits.

hi tris, if you're town now is the time to show it so we don't lose with your miselimination.
no pressure. if you're scum sit back and relax, i guess.

[Kaname Date]

i have a few problems with jjh. his read on FL especially, where he goes from being suspicious of FL and then saying he's reevaluated and that this is probably town FL, with no explanation besides that he agrees with FL that if FL were scum, jjh would have been nightkilled.

i'm just not seeing the solving he's promised. his only SR is tris and it's based off the idea that Ampharos could never have been the nightkill.

i see Gamma's reasoning for townreading jjh, but what's stopping scum jjh from making that "Pooky might be scum" crier message with the knowledge that Pooky is going down that night?

[Kaname Date]

FL is provable, i TR Gamma (and it looks like Mars has done some digging about that, which i've looked at a bit but should do more of.)
Hayasaka and Fish i still TR, and frankly i trust my past self on those with nothing to indicate i shouldn't.

so, jjh or tris, are left as the two players i'm fine to eliminate, but more examination of jjh in general would make me very happy.

[Kaname Date]

You hear something in the middle of the night:

My inactivity is a ruse! Silencing me before I give detailed reads would be useful information

tris, KD, GE, Hayasaka, Amy, VMP, Fish town

Pooky scum unless good mechanics clear behaviour. DP maybe scum- sometimes it's that easy
I don't try to read NM or FL. Lynch if no better options

Note: Hierophant

You hear something in the middle of the night:

Crier message:

Okay I guess I need to put effort into this game now

I'll figure some shit out after the flip tbh

Got nothing from my action N1.

If I die, expect my contribution D4 via FL. This should come along with identifying information that proves his role. Proof of role doesn't mean town, though. Be cautious.

It would totally not have shocked me based off of this, if Amy saved FL last night. Can someone tell me what exactly about crier + some kind of Arcana invest enable jjh to be able to prove FL’s role here? More like, FL’s role + alignment will be proven when he’s pushing up daisies.

~M

@FL, what do you think of this? Pooky was specifically mentioned N1 and he’s dead and you were specifically mentioned N2. Coincidence?

~M

i just got to this post where Mars suggests Amy may have saved FL from tris/jjh dream team. i'm not sure if scum jjh tries this twice because someone would notice, if FL had actually died here, that the crier messages had expressed suspicion on the nightkill twice. Nancy noticed and FL didn't even die.

i do think it could have happened n1, however.

[Kaname Date]

Yeah it was sudden, so I’m not really seeing the point of it. I quoted that post from Maria specifying that the game isn’t bastard and only a jester role that literally ends the game would be considered bastard. But a jester role even if 3P, is still never a scum role. The only scum 3P role that I’m aware of is SK (or some other kind of killing role) and there is clearly no SK (3P killing role in this game) in the game, so I don’t understand how jjh gets FL possible scum from that. I do think that either 11 towns + 2 scum is ridiculously townsided as are 10 towns + 1 non-bastard jester + 2 scum, so his mech conclusion would seem unlikely, especially with the extent of hardclaimed town power and based off of what jjh said in his crier message N2, it sure looks like an odd night Arcana rolecop to me based on that but he shot down invest. so I have no clue then what it possibly could be other than that.

~M

i'm going to sound really stupid asking this but is this you agreeing with suspicion of jjh or giving reasons for him to be town? i believe it's the former but i'm having some issues concentrating on the intent of the post.

my theory is jjh's role gets feedback on whether it worked or not, meaning he can verify if a given arcana is in the game by targeting that arcana with his role and seeing if it goes off.

jjh: i was asking about your FL read. what in your reread prompted the conclusion he was probably town after your suspicion?
and what's your opinion on Amy's validity as a nightkill target?

[Kaname Date]

tris
Gamma Emerald
jjh927
FL

So if I am understanding where the room is at right now, these 4 are the top runners for the remaining Scum team? I'm trying to solidify my PoE a little more thoroughly.

is this your impression of how the game as a whole is feeling?
are there certain players whose opinions you trust more, or is this just crowdsourcing.

[Kaname Date]

my jjh scumread was just a scumread, hahaha. i didn't think the scumteam was entirely doppelgangers.
game was fun. it did feel like we had a lot of power. but Amy's target was pretty clutch, the game would have looked a lot different had she not grabbed the kill. VMP's TA as well.

it's not often that you see unexpected town deaths screw over scum quite so badly... twice.

[Kaname Date]

i almost had to believe the claim because i figured it would be tested. and i knew after my N3 death Nancy would be looking for FL relaying a specific private conversation between us, so she'd be able to prove i wasn't in a topic with him. though, FL's ability to wiggle out of a bad situation can't be underestimated.

i protected Haya n1 thinking he might be the kill, and FL because i thought he was a likely kill target if town but also didn't trust him at all. between the two it was obvious that FL was the one to flip. i was trying to bait a kill n3.

credit to Fish and Haya for obvtowning so early they stayed entirely out of the PoE. also thanks to Nancy for townclearing me on D&D interactions. my goal this game was to survive long enough to die on my own and flip a scum, which i did do, even if my reads weren't too great.

[Kaname Date]

Should have trusted my gut that there's no way a role like that exists

i've had this exact role.

it sucked so bad.
not mechanically, it was useful. but relaying was hell. always will be. i hate being in hoods.

it was a good claim considering the shituation FL found himself in. i'm glad he kept trying to the end. i really respect that. but let him be town? i don't even know what town FL looks like.

[Kaname Date]

Maria, please don’t ever deviate so flagrantly from the standard role names + utilities like you did here, it makes things really hard to parse

@Gamma did you vig KD? We still don’t know why he died.

i died from the "Suicidal" in my role name. it was inevitable.
i could have lived longer if i'd never docced but obviously i was going to use it.

[Kaname Date]

wasn't explicitly stated in my role PM but i figured from context that the counter being referenced would kill me when it reached zero.