Mini Theme 2164: Betrayal Mafia I (Game over!)

[Bingle]

This is a very exciting setup

I have many thoughts about mech-speculation.

Would you guys like to hear them or should we just begin executing people?

I think massclaim of explore/not explore N0 first is better.

My role wants people to explore, but I went after blowing up labs because explosions.

[Bingle]

Jingle is in the mod queue where he belongs. If you want to join a Jingle game, you have to go to the micro queue and answer awkward questions about your fears.

[Bingle]

Oh, also, if people could horde really shitty items for to give them to me in the late game, I would be grateful.

[Bingle]

Penguins can't be doctors.

Can they be worms? Asking for a friend.

[Bingle]

General question. For someone who chose to explore: were you given a specific room you found?

If so, if anyone found a room that isn't the Library, Gymnasium, or Eugene Saenger Lab, could you say that you found a room that wasn't one of the three (Not which room you found, but that you found a room that isn't listed).

I want this knowledge for two reasons. 1: I want to work out the rough lab density of the room pile and 2: I want to work out whether massclaiming rooms is likely to be useful.

I want to avoid outing what type of room you visited because it can only help scum to guess who has items (like weapons that might make them dangerous to fight and thus high lobotomy priority) and who doesn't. If this is anything like the board game (it seems like it is), the room names have some correlation with their effects. Note: both Library and Gymnasium are vanilla betrayal rooms.

F&G doesn't really come across as scummy so much as bad at game theory. Gemerald is giving off pretty strong townfeels, and I want to say the same about ABR but I don't think he's doing anything he wouldn't be doing as scum. I'm going to try to turbopocket PP this game to cut down on him paranoia sorting me as scum, so he's clearly town.

Nosferatu is slightly town via tinfoil. It is unlikely both Pine and GB are scum via a slightly stronger tinfoil.

If, tonight, you decide to blow up a lab: Players in the top half of the alive section of the playerlist should target Robert. Players in the bottom half of the alive section should target Eugene. If somehow we have an odd number going into the night then the person in the middle can choose. I solved your targeting issue, it's now worthless as a topic of discussion. You're welcome.

VOTE: Dr.P

[Bingle]

We also don't know if stuff is multitasking or not

We kinda do.

Am I the only one who read the setup rules?

[Bingle]

Albert B. Rampage
Bingle
beeboy
GeorgeBailey
Nosferatu
SirCakez
DoctorPepper
PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald
Pine


Ydrasse
CreativeMod1
Fun and Games

Roughly, I think the top of the first list to the bottom is the likelihood an individual player would have chosen to be the Voice if scum. I think Pine never picks himself for the voice because he's more apt to setting up a teammate to endgame. I think ABR always picks himself to be voice because he doesn't like having to rely on the competence of others, plus he has the stubbornness to get his way if someone disagreed. I'm unsure about the middle, but this is roughly where my gauge is.

I'd like everyone to talk about whether they would have been the voice or not and why. Note: this is not a list of towniness, but rather an "If they were scum 100%, would they have chosen to be the neverlynch scum."

[Bingle]

Yes.

Interesting. I’d like person who found the library to claim that they found the library, as well as whether finding it gave them the benefit of using it. Specifically the library, not any other room.

[Bingle]

I did read the rules but there's just a lot so I probably forgot some things

VOTE: SirCakez

My previous vote was also serious, but I feel better about this.

[Bingle]

And to Bingle, no I did not see what room I entered in my personal results.

I was afraid of that. You did receive results though? Something along the lines of “Event: you were beaten over the head by a crazed mongoose and lost 53 quid” or “Item: You find a dire wombat and are reminded that Pine failed us all.”

Don’t particularly want what happened, I’m just trying to work out whether exploring always gives some kind of results.

My working theory is that there’s a percent roll for named room, lab, event, item. Potentially weighted by our roles (it would make sense for doctors to be able to guarantee or increase the odds of finding a lab). Using that, we can determine how risky exploring is later when I’m dead and the labs being activated is a large concern.

[Bingle]

I’d assume not. Individual results are almost never published.

[Bingle]

ABR: am I wrong in my impression that you would want to be the scum role that would need to survive, the idea that you would be able to get your way, or both?

[Bingle]

Interesting. Are you aware of why scum you wants me to come to the opposite conclusion?

[Bingle]

There's a scum utility to being the top of the list if you wouldn't actually try to be the Voice, but I'll hold off on explaining why until more people weigh in on the question because I think it's an interesting area to develop conversation and reads.

[Bingle]

Actually is the wombat thing something from a mafia game, or like, a DnD session?

Check out Pine's sig.

[Bingle]

@mod, the rules reference hidden permanent rooms that we can interact with at our own risk. Can you confirm whether any of these hidden rooms are potentially labs?

[Bingle]

Like I just dont fully understand what the benefit is to deliberately be secretive about everything

If Doctors know who explored, they know that person has a higher chance of having an item. I really don't think mass claiming night actions is a good idea.

Explored =/= Has an item.
Has an item =/= would be a better scumkill.

There is absolutely no guarantee that an item is positive utility, or that exploring a room doesn't just drop you in a pit trap and do damage.

OTOH, having a rough idea of how often we're going to hit labs is potentially useful as we weigh whether labs need to be focused on. (Individually).

[Bingle]

(Just gonna out this cuz i can tell i'm gonna get frustrated: this is skitter, *waves*)

Ah. I'd guess that you'd be right above me in the list.

Pine certainly could fulfill the role of scumlord with extra power, sure. He wouldn't though. Pine doesn't like to solo endgame, he likes to set up his team to win after he goes down. Given that option in the pregame, he pretty much always goes for the latter, I think.

And because someone asked: The Voice is one of the scums that makes the secondary scum win con slightly easier to achieve while they're alive. (Functionally, they require one fewer lab to win.) Scum chose which one of them would be the Voice in the pregame. There may or may not be additional benefits or restrictions associated with being the voice.

Admittedly, the assignment of the voice would seem to mean very little in most cases, but I think there's a way we can twist the mechanic to town's advantage, and want to hear people's thoughts on whether or not they (or others) would likely want to be the voice and why, both in pursuit of that and as a way to kick off legitimate scumhunting.

[Bingle]

The organizing of items that may or may not exist is a remarkably useless way to spend day one.

FWIW, stacking them all on one person is a potentially viable plan, but not one we should even consider before we know more about the setup.

[Bingle]

Also @Nosferatu - what happened to your knowledge? Did the scum use their factional ability to reduce it? This would put you very close to dying if I am reading the rules correctly and you should go to the library to fix this.

Ew.

"DOCTORS have a factional operation ability. Each night, they can select one player to operate on and increase or decrease that player's Knowledge by 1."

also, uh, if nosferatu is town i think that we should very much get some knowledge his way. i would gently recommend that he goes to the library to get some book smarts tonight

Ew^2.

I'm fine with setup spec but I can't get into it myself
just fyi

Okay. How do you feel about things like the wagon on you that aren't setup spec?

[Bingle]

PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald

Fun and Games

Nosferatu
GeorgeBailey
Pine

beeboy - Null line.
CreativeMod1
Albert B. Rampage

DoctorPepper

Ydrasse
SirCakez

[Bingle]

Akshually...

VOTE: Ydrasse

I think I'm slightly more confident in this. Follow me and we can eliminate all the Doctors!

[Bingle]

Spoiler:

I see I have somehow completely missed the existence of the dawn phase - I am quite bad at reading rules.

Should we mass-claim what we did last night and our motivations behind our actions?

Why would we do this?

My thing is like what if scum can mess with the people trying to destroy the labs?

My thing is like what if scum can mess with the people trying to destroy the labs?

Like, how?

I don't know, their roles/Careers or items I'd assume
We also don't know if stuff is multitasking or not

I'm fine with setup spec but I can't get into it myself
just fyi

Reason for voting SirCakez. He jumps into game focusing on setup spec, and then immediately proves he didn't know possibly the most interesting parts of the setup: Scum can't kill. Also, there's like 5 references to multiple actions. In the rules section:

Spoiler:

All players are able to perform as many of the following actions as they would like:

3) Each Night phase, perform up to [half your speed rounded down, with a minimum of 1] of the following actions:

You are not allowed to send me conditional actions (i.e. "if I discover an Item room, then attempt to Activate X LAB").

Players can choose to use as few as zero of their actions during each Night phase.
If a player does not submit actions during the Night phase, I will by default assume they use one action to explore Rooms and do not perform any other actions.

DOCTORS do not have a factional nightkill. Instead, DOCTORS have an additional factional attack they can use once per Night (in addition to their personal actions) by nominating one of the DOCTORS to perform the attack. The attack counts as an additional action for that DOCTOR and the nominated DOCTOR can use any stat modifications, abilities, etc. in their possession on this attack in addition to any personal attacks made. However, this attack will never be shown as attributed to a specific DOCTOR, but instead will appear as if “a DOCTOR” attacked (i.e., identity will always be private for factional attack). This factional attack does not count towards the personal limit of actions taken.

And yet, SC was A) aware that labs needed to be destroyed, B) unaware of multitasking, and C)

hasn't actually done any scumhunting

. Very much press doubt to X.

[Bingle]

bingle has successfully identified me and one of my fellow doctors, godspeed to my faction

anyways, how does everyone else feel about the prospects of a super-stacked person that we choose?

Wait are you actually scum or are you being facetious

Yes.


Ydrasse is scum because holy shit did you see how scummy 126 and 128 are?

126 is a gross LAMISTY pile on to a gross LAMISTY sentiment. Yes, Nosferatu should try not to die. That's obvious, and there's no point to pointing out to Nosferatu except to try to look town, and Ydrasse was the second one to do it. 128 is seeking permission from the thread to do the obviously correct play tonight, which comes across as not wanting to be held accountable for her actions.

Ydrasse wants to be seen as town, but nothing that she's doing has anything more than surface value.

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

I can definitely see someone missing the part about doctors being able to reduce knowledge by 1 each night or the part that if any stat is reduced to 0 it will result in death.

Except... He didn't just miss the part about the doctors being able to reduce knowledge. He missed multiple different places where multitasking was confirmed.

Multitasking was confirmed in post 1, under deadlines.
Multitasking was confirmed in post 5, 4 times under the actions heading, in every paragraph.
Multitasking was confirmed in post 6, once under Resolution/Interaction of Night Actions, once under attacks/steals, and once under Results.
Multitasking was confirmed in post 7, under General Setup Information and under the Doctor Faction.
Multitasking was confirmed in post 8, in the sample role PM. You know, the sample role PM that would mirror the role PM SirCakes would have gotten as town.

The Lab win condition, by comparison, was confirmed only in post 4.

So, in order for SirCakez to be telling the truth about the multitasking being forgotten, he had to have read how actions work in order to make his N0 actions and his own role PM in order to confirm. He also provably is scum or read at least enough of the rules to understand the secondary wincondition is {Scum activate Labs}.

I find it way more likely that SirCakez was trying to townslip as scum by "not being aware" of that aspect of the game than that he forgot something that came up in literally every rules post and his own role PM after reading the rules. I find it way way more likely that he's scum trying to fake a townslip than that he didn't look at any of the rules posts after having not remembered them but had read them in the first place WHILE ATTEMPTING TO ENGAGE IN SETUP SPEC.

I find it way more likely that SC is scum than that SC is town who came into the thread to do setup spec, then shifted directly to complaining about how he's not good at setup spec without doing anything else.

[Bingle]

Fun and Games

Why are we so high?

~ games

You've done things I think might be town. This, naturally, puts you above the people who circumstantially might be town based on weak mechanical information and lower than people I think are probably town.

[Bingle]

I also didn't catch this in the rules, but if doctors have an ability relating to reducing down their knowledge for something then it's kinda sus that someone has lower knowledge and I'd like to get to the bottom of this

This would be a pretty ballsy scum tactic in the wake of me pushing SC over potentially faking a lack of understanding of the rules.

[Bingle]

@mod: Pine and GE are both due prods if you wouldn't mind.

[Bingle]

Also 156 was in reference to Nosferatu not me

156 was a justification of the post notskitts made that I called out. By responding to it, I was implicitly not caring about the defense, while pointing that hydra towards something I actually wanted to hear their thoughts on that was logic adjacent.

If you're town, who/what reads do you have.

[Bingle]

Me or my other head?

Not really trying to read your heads separately atm. At least one of the posts I liked was yours though.

[Bingle]

Why is beeboy the leading wagon

Because, in a playerlist full of people lurking, he was the only one that was actually V/LA.

[Bingle]

I'm on your wagon lol

Why is beeboy the leading wagon and i dont get why bingle is voting ydrasse and not on sircakez

~ games

Because I think combination of the jump on to telling Nos to get knowledge after you'd already done so and the functional "Hey guys, is it okay if I do the thing that benefits me as town" is comparitively more scummy than the likelihood that Cakez is lying about the memory thing, the lack of scumhunting, and the dichotomy of jumping into setup spec and then backing down from setup spec without shifting gears. I'm tempted to vote cake because of the beeboy wagon, but I think it's fairly clear that I'm in support of either wagon and my vote on Ydrasse means more at the moment.

Speaking of which, Penguin, I'd be happy to vote Cake if I had two votes. But I don't and I'm not ready to drop my push on Ydrasse yet.

[Bingle]

I don't see that as a problem, tbh, nor do I particularly think it's a departure from our norm. My impression of past games where we were both town is that we tend to clash on our views of the thread quite a bit.

And my wagon on Ydrasse is way more valuable if there are in fact dissenting viewpoints, so...

Who do you think

is

worth poking with pitchforks and why?

[Bingle]

the ~lack of shifting gears~ is more because of lowered site activity/urge to mafia.

The lack of shifting gears part described SC, not you. The issue there is that he stopped with the setup spec without then picking up something else. Your consistency on setup speccing isn't a reason I'm scumreading you.

[Bingle]

I lied I hard town read Bingle.

Dammit, bee.

[Bingle]

Shit. I think I just cast myself as Yosemite Sam.

This should be interpreted as foreshadowing.

[Bingle]

Okay all this set up spec is just confusing to me

I'd just like to say this is why I only have one read lmao.

To clarify, are you saying there's too much NAI mechspec or that there are too many people complaining about being lost in the mechspec?

[Bingle]

v This is the kind of post that scum makes.

[Bingle]

Do you think there is a quantity of games played as town/modded that makes you not newbscum or is it just a function of actually playing as scum, GB?

[Bingle]

Also, what do you think of Nos/Ydrasse independently? If exactly one of them is scum, which do you think it is?

[Bingle]

PP, IRL. He's trying to conceal his identity from us.

I think there is at most one scum in CM/Ydrasse/F&G. I think CM/F&G are likely town atm, although 308 is pretty terribad. Nos is probably my strongest townread, outside of PP who is a townread for pocketing reasons.

I think it is likely there are 4 scum.

CM, how much experience with mafia in general/gambits do you have?

[Bingle]

gonna move our vote here tho:

VOTE: georgebailey

Tell me more, tell me more.

[Bingle]

Basically a vig equivalent with the enhancement.

What say you Bingle?

Eh. It's not a particularly powerful role imo. It could potentially be confirmable though?

UNVOTE:

Beeboy, talk to me about why you want to vote the hydra, why you're not voting the hydra, and why you don't want to vote anyone else.

[Bingle]

Honestly, I'm impressed that I managed to put on pants today. I'll try and figure out where I want my vote to be tomorrow morning.

[Bingle]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think no-lynch is bad in this setup?

We can lynch at night basically.

It explicitly is. We lose the game of attrition and fighting is unreliable because with even stats it works <1/2 the time.

[Bingle]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think no-lynch is bad in this setup?

We can lynch at night basically.

It seems a bit sub-optimal since if we're able to elim the voice, then we have a way better chance at winning through labs.

What?

[Bingle]

I AM ASSASSIN.

my role allows me to attack someone as many times as my speed allows per night, rather than once; however, this does not allow me to do another specific action during the night.

i'm claiming because my other post didn't deter things but i would actually like to be useful and get multiple attacks off on scum, ty.

Hang on, this sounds like a scum sided role...like unless we've got powerful scum, I can't see why town would have a role like this?

What?

[Bingle]

VOTE: SC

[Bingle]

Offense is better than defense. If we’re in a position where we need to play whack a mole with labs we’re already losing. First rule of game theory, don’t let the opponent set the pace for the game.

More to the point your post implies that ‘we’ can win through labs when only doctors can win through labs. It also seems to assume that the doctors plan to win through labs. Care to comment?

[Bingle]

I don't understand why people are reading anything into careers as it is stated by mod to be unrelated to our actual alignments

I firmly disagree with this interpretation, FWIW, because the game is nominally balanced and we already have claims that have a distinct difference in power as town or scum.

There is a chance it means that roles and alignments were randomized independently, but more likely it just means that if someone’s role is healing or knowledge based that doesn’t automatically make them scum.

[Bingle]

Yeah, rereading the ISO GB’s approach to the game just doesn’t feel town.

VOTE: GB

I would say that a scumflip here is moderately clearing for f&g amd cmod, if that happens and I die.

[Bingle]

Aimlessly attacking someone who might be scum sets us up for friendly fire.

I...

What?

I haven't advocated that everyone fight at all. I've advocated that everyone do whatever is the correct choice for their specific power. We're no where near the point where we need to enforce night actions. Fighting is probably wrong at the moment unless someone has information that says fighting isn't wrong, and it's not the time for that information to be shared yet.

My point was entirely that we want to be working towards finding scum, not working towards preventing scum from winning. No more, no less.

But why did you ignore the rest of that post. You know, the important part.

[Bingle]

Offense is better than defense. If we’re in a position where we need to play whack a mole with labs we’re already losing. First rule of game theory, don’t let the opponent set the pace for the game.

This is exactly it. Why bother with the labs? We can treat the night as a second lynch and all gang up on someone. If we coordinate and strike true, we could wrap this up fairly quickly.

I’m not interested in coordinated fighting yet. Presumably people have stronger uses of their powers than fighting or this is functionally a swingier version of Doubleday, and I kinda doubt that was the setup intention.

[Bingle]

Wouldn't you just use a lathe?

Also, scum has a loud roleblocker, so... That's nice.

[Bingle]

I mean... I guess that what you're describing IS mostly a lathe, so go ahead and ignore that.

[Bingle]

I volunteer as tribute to prove the magical pigeon powers, but would prefer to wait until daystart to do so. If possible, could you ask the following questions: can the pidgin be gifted and used in the same phase (use it on me gift it to Ydrasse, for example, and then potentially have Ydrasse use it), does using the pigeon count as gifting it even though you know it will come back, and can you gift the pigeon without it coming back? I don’t think we necessarily want to use the pigeon as a claim obfuscation device, since it’s unlikely we have a full investigative role in a setup with unreliable nightkills and the nightkills are unreliable anyway.

Honestly, I was kinda hoping it was a targeted role blocker and not a room stopper, but this actually makes individual choice more important not less. We got unlucky randing the gym right away, because it was always going to be a high traffic room. On the other hand:

I have a role that has a visual impact on the thread when it is used.

is that statement true of anyone else? I mean... other than the hammer only role, which clearly has an effect on the role and the one shot heal.

[Bingle]

I’m keeping track and will share my notes if asked at some later point, ABR.

I have some thoughts about the usage of the pigeon, but would be interested in why you think sending it to not you is scummy.

[Bingle]

Nah, that’s at cm. Sorry for the ambiguity. I’m mobile posting and helping someone with paperwork simultaneously.

[Bingle]

Dang both labs got activated

Interesting.

Presumably, that means that the action for two separate scum was to activate labs. That means that I definitely don't want to eliminate in Gamma/CMod today. Nos is still probably town. I can't particularly recall any of my other reads, other than SC/Ydrasse scum. I should probably reread to figure that out.

VOTE: beeboy

Can we not have a lurkfest today?

[Bingle]

I'm not supposed to make sense, PP. I'm supposed to make waves.

[Bingle]

Idk, for me it just feels like he's found someone who he feels is very towny and is making them look good so that when Bingle flips scum, town then distrusts said townies

I'd like you to clarify what my goal here as scum supposedly is, because your position is bonkers.

[Bingle]

I don't like this post.

It being a bad look doesn't make it not true.

The takeaway is the opposite angle, though.

There is a scum roomstopper (trademark pending) that probably isn't cmod via his publicly confirmable claim, so solving cmod's alignment is a comparitively lower priority.

I would like to get CMod's results from N0 though.

[Bingle]

Except that exploring is a separate action from personal abilities and both can be done at the same time.

This is true. Cmod theoretically can prove one exploration. If cmod can prove the second exploration, they become unlikely to be the scum who activated labs. Cmod can heal a player. If this is true, they cannot be the scum who roomstopped.

None of this means cmod ISN’T scum, just that cmod is less likely to be scum than someone else, like you or me, who doesn’t have visible results.

As I said, I agree that it’s a bad look but it’s not a bad look to explore today. Which was what I said.

[Bingle]

And Pine was the consensus scumread I was talking about.

Interesting. That’s +equity for small town. Also Pine is a scumread?

[Bingle]

Also, yes I can prove a second exploration, I won't say exactly how unless pushed but I can prove it

If it is "I was the one to find the gymnasium/lab/blahblahblah" do so now, because that proof becomes useless when we have more dead people who might have done that thing and your being cc'd becomes less and less probable if you're fakeclaiming. Otherwise, I'll have to get back to you sometime this day phase, because I have a busy day today and can't think it all the way through atm.

[Bingle]

What I'm trying to say is IF Scum!Bingle hard defending Town!CM1 and then Bingle flips as being scum then there's a lot of sus now on CM1...but I will say is that yet again you haven't answered the question I asked you now twice, I don't understand what your logic was back then and I still don't

If ScumBingle -> Bingle knows GB won't flip scum.

If Bingle knows GB is town -> GB scumflip cannot happen.

If GB scumflip cannot happen -> cmod town if GB scum isn't actually defending you when we were about to eliminate GB.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Nosferatu

I also didn't catch this in the rules, but if doctors have an ability relating to reducing down their knowledge for something then it's kinda sus that someone has lower knowledge and I'd like to get to the bottom of this

UNVOTE: nosferatu

I probably should've actually reread the rules before replying
It seems more like nosferatu was subject to an attack by the doctors

I think this might be Town!CM indicative.

Looking at CM's meta, I can seem to find a single scum game, so if he were to roll it, it would be one of his first time playing. I don't think this slip up comes from Newb Scum.

Do you think there is a quantity of games played as town/modded that makes you not newbscum or is it just a function of actually playing as scum, GB?

I feel like after 3 or so scum games, people usually iron out suspicious behaviors as scum. Like being overly defensive, copying reads list, forced scum hunting, fence sitting, etc. So, both?

This stance did not strike me as S/S nor did the F&G interaction with GB on page 14. I never elaborated because those observations are now useless. They weren't S/S, because one of the participants flipped town.

[Bingle]

scum still need to do a knowledge roll to activate labs, seeing as it’s required in the role portion I described.

I missed this the first time and it is SPICY.

what roll is required?

[Bingle]

Finally I've just had a thought, when we get round to voting someone off, if said player is a town player then I highly suggest they send their items to whoever they think is the towniest player....if we leave it on the floor then there's a chance that scum will be able to pick it up (likewise if you have a daytime ability, use it before you die)

Eh.

If the item is really good, sure. Otherwise, having a collection of garbage on the floor gives us the option of leashing actions to picking garbage off of the floor, since it has a visible effect.

[Bingle]

I’m not informed what number they need, just that it’s a Knowledge check

Explicitly though you can activate labs? Can you ask what number you would need?

[Bingle]

I don't understand why people are reading anything into careers as it is stated by mod to be unrelated to our actual alignments

I firmly disagree with this interpretation, FWIW, because the game is nominally balanced and we already have claims that have a distinct difference in power as town or scum.

There is a chance it means that roles and alignments were randomized independently, but more likely it just means that if someone’s role is healing or knowledge based that doesn’t automatically make them scum.

So I have an ability that let’s me “activate or destroy a lab without using a night action”. Now, why would my role say activate when I’m Town? My guess is scum has the same power on one of them. Since this action still requires a knowledge roll, I’m inclined to suspect anyone with elevated knowledge during N1, as they would have probably done so in order to be able to activate labs easier. The only person alive during N1 with increased knowledge was Pine. So I am going to
VOTE: Pine
And Pine was the consensus scumread I was talking about.

Each player's life story and background provides them with a

unique

special ability called a Career, which is not linked to their alignment. (See sample role PM below.)

So it seems that backgrounds were distributed without looking at one's alignment.

While it is possible that we're in a smalltown situation (and gamma's claim made that possibility rise) balancing a setup where role and alignment are distributed separately is much, much harder than balancing a setup where town has scummy roles and scum has towny roles. The latter is still the more likely interpretation imo.

Also, cmod, we almost certainly don't have a cop, as I mentioned earlier.

[Bingle]

I don't think eliminating Bingle early is wise. He has a tendency of carrying town with mechanics. Regardless of his alignment.

[Bingle]

Also, cmod, we almost certainly don't have a cop, as I mentioned earlier.

I'm a cop of unknown sanity.

A50 is scum, you're naive.

[Bingle]

I just want to commit atrocious acts of violence... somebody point me to a doctor who needs head bashing...

I dub thee Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, Beater of Asses.

Hmm, so Pine claims to have tried to use the gym so there's no way he gained the knowledge from either Library or by doing another action

So either he as a Doctor did it or another Doctor did it

What?

[Bingle]

Beeboy is due a prod. Pine, No’s and Ydrasse are all hours away. I want to hear from all of them.

[Bingle]

also knowing what we now know about the scum having a room-blocking ability - I think it is likely that the first lab remained inactivated after N1 because scum used their roomblocker to keep out anyone who may have tried to destroy the lab - if this is true and nobody reported it, that kind of implies nobody tried to destroy the lab? which is kind of funny in some ways.

Explicitly they did not. I attempted and failed to destroy the lab N0, and claimed as such in the thread.

@JF: Pine is neither very towny nor scummy by play. He's been absent, as is normal for Pine. Gamma's argument that scum needed an increased knowledge to consistently activate Labs and thus Pine is scum is interesting, but that's really not a slam dunk scumcase, and the wagon speed and the characterization of Pine as a consensus scumread are both interesting. Does anyone actually scumread Pine based on something that isn't Gamma's case?

[Bingle]

I'm tinfoiling that GE is scum atm, FWIW.

I have absolutely no intention to vote him, but his claimed role is supposedly worded pretty strangely. We also theoretically had a 60% chance of destroying the N0 lab if both he and I attacked it and did not. Additionally, if town has a method of throwing someone at a lab every night with no real drawbacks, the lab wincon becomes increasingly difficult for scum.

GE should be largely self resolving though. If he's town scum can't afford to leave him around to potentially blow up a lab and get pseudoconftown status, so they're going to have to prioritize taking him out.

Was anyone other than me against coordinating our night actions onto specific rooms? I seem to remember someone pushing for a preemptive massclaim of action targets and I want to go back to that, but don't have time to hunt it down atm.

[Bingle]

I do. But scum are probably definitely on this wagon and it moved really fast, hence the questions

I'd assumed as such, and am willing to wait to hear your reason until you get your responses. I was more interested in the rest of the players, tbh.

[Bingle]

Bungle what you thinking bout Ally B? Skeeves me out, that one

He's been kinda low presence this game, but I don't know how much of that is that I'm used to replacing into games with him and the general lurksack nature of this PL.

I have absolutely no intention to vote him, but his claimed role is supposedly worded pretty strangely. We also theoretically had a 60% chance of destroying the N0 lab if both he and I attacked it and did not.

Why didn't Gamma attempt to destroy the lab?

If he's town there wouldn't be a reason for him to. That's kind of the point. My idea on trying to blow up a lab on N0 was that it'd be nice to be nearconftown in a mechsetup where I couldn't be easily killed and I had a decent chance at a yolo success + a low chance of someone else trying the same thing.

In any case, we're not eliminating him today so it's not an important bridge to burn just yet.

[Bingle]

Im planning on sending both of my items out so that I can prove this but need to work out the right people to send to

I have reconsidered, btw, and would prefer you send to not me because of role stuff.

[Bingle]

I seem to remember someone pushing for a preemptive massclaim of action targets and I want to go back to that, but don't have time to hunt it down atm.

Are you talking about

I see I have somehow completely missed the existence of the dawn phase - I am quite bad at reading rules.

Should we mass-claim what we did last night and our motivations behind our actions?

Nah.

This conversation was what I was talking about.

Spoiler:

Wouldnt we want to try to coordinate that so we dont have 7 people trying to do that at the same time?

It's very very possible I missed something in the rules but i'm not sure why we'd want/need to hide that info?

Or like now there's 2 labs. What if 6 people pile on the first one and nobody goes to the second one?

Like I just dont fully understand what the benefit is to deliberately be secretive about everything

Also stats are public so wouldnt we just want to send the people with like the two highest knowledge scores to lab 1 and then the next two people to lab 2 (or some slight variation on this)?

(I'm saying like 2 people because if we just send one they can be scum and just not go and lie about it, but if two people are sent we'd need them both to be scum for that to happen)

~ Games

Honestly if we want to coordinate something like this I suggest, at least for today, we do 3 on one, 3 on the other, and 6 don’t try to destroy a lab tonight.

Also, I think I’m willing to interpret this motion by F&G as neutrally benign, so I’ll state I explored
And to Bingle, no I did not see what room I entered in my personal results.

I think ABR always picks himself to be voice because he doesn't like having to rely on the competence of others, plus he has the stubbornness to get his way if someone disagreed.

You don't know me at all and are dead wrong about this.

That's honestly kinda likely to happen if we dont coordinate. Maybe not 7, but for sure more people than we need

And i feel like you're trying to not understand my point and are pushing us for spurious reasons

Do u have a reason why we shouldnt just send the ~2 most knowledgeable people to each room?

Town doesn't know what countermeasures are in place by Doctors, so trying to plan with less information is generally a bad idea.

I have been thinking about the setup and below are some of my thoughts so far.



I've played similar games where there are rooms etc and one way to find the bad guys is to have a running tally of actions etc.

It seems one way the scum could kill people is by attacking them at night as one of their actions - as room exploration, lab deactivation attacks are not public actions.

In lieu of a standard nightkill, the scum have an anonymous attack - they also could attack somebody directly if they believe they have a good chance of killing them as a dead person is unable to say anything.

They can also use their nightactions to attack a person directly,

For example the entire scum team could attack Bingle and if they succeed in dealing him enough damage - he would not be able to tell us who his attackers were as he is dead.

One way I thought of to deal with this is if we coordinate our night actions on rooms that provide verification.

For example if all of us were to use the gym - all of us would get a speed increase of 1 - scum who would try to do something evil would not get this speed increase and be exposed.

Also @Nosferatu - what happened to your knowledge? Did the scum use their factional ability to reduce it? This would put you very close to dying if I am reading the rules correctly and you should go to the library to fix this.


Also as for mech-speculation - I do not believe it is a priority to destroy the labs currently as our player count is quite high - it would make sense imo to have higher knowledge players destroy labs.

A player with a knowledge score of 3 has only a 10/27 chance of de-activating a lab successfully - and failure would be a wasted action on the part of the town. Also the lower the probability of success is, the easier it is for scum to do something evil and pretend like his night-action was to de-activate a lab when it really was not.


~Fun

I don't think most people would suggest such an obviously beneficial-to-scum plan as scum. As soon as the roomstop became public knowledge they would be under the spotlight. I kinda want second opinions there as I have a bit of a habit of reading things like this as too clearing.

[Bingle]

So I have an ability that let’s me “activate or destroy a lab without using a night action”.

I have absolutely no intention to vote him, but his claimed role is supposedly worded pretty strangely. We also theoretically had a 60% chance of destroying the N0 lab if both he and I attacked it and did not.

Why didn't Gamma attempt to destroy the lab?

maybe because I wanted to raise my knowledge?
Stop throwing weak ass shade, bro.

What?

[Bingle]

ABR, I get the sense that you don't have any really strong reads, and I don't think I've ever seen that from town you. Am I correct? If so, can you explain why? Also, if you have a reason to attack someone and no scumreads, I am not opposed to taking a little bit of damage.

Is no one else weirded out about Gamma's claim that he gets free lab attacks and hasn't been attacking labs?

JF, if you can give a +1 knowledge to someone during the day I'd prefer it be Nos. Nos is resilient to attacks as a pseudo PGO if he's town, and I'd like him to be able to break active labs if possible.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Pine

I'm not 100% sold on Pine but I do think a Pine flip will give us a lot of info and therefore I wanna keep the pressure on

:/

Did you read skitt's argument for Pine to die at night?

[Bingle]

iks', not skitt's. Sry.

[Bingle]

I'm not solely arguing scum put knowledge on themselves because it benefits them. I'm saying it because two labs being activated points to that idea. The whole meat of this is entirely based around the known events of the game, where Pine got knowledge n0 and then 2 labs got activated n1. Pine very well could have the same role (aka career, just to lean on game terminology for a second) I do, which would have allowed him to activate a lab for free once in addition to still being able to use a night action through speed to do it. Pine also just hasn't been contributing, and when he's this low contribution as town I generally see him replace out or at least be upfront about it being a problem. So there's a non-mechanical reasoning for Pine to be scum.
Now, let's talk hypotheticals off of Pine's flip. If he flips with my Career (which I expect should show up in the flip despite full role text not) then we can treat my theory as effectively confirmed. If he flips as scum with a different role, then it says 2 things: that scum probably did end up using two standard night actions to activate those labs, and that it probably takes a relatively low roll to get. If he flips town we at least have a ton of wagon information to analyze from today and maybe yesterday. So I think yeeting him today is at the very least a strongly informative move.

As for whether labs matter, they ALWAYS matter. If we can destroy the labs now, they won't be around later, and I imagine there's a good chance there won't be infinite labs.

:/

First, despite all of my attempts to use your roleclaim to find out, you remain adamant that you don't know what roll scum need to activate a lab. I would wager, in fact, that activating a lab is comparatively easy to destroying one, because in a game without nightkills scum is going to need some serious advantages. Your mechanical argument for Pine scum is a very weak case, yet it's seen a disproportionate amount of support.

Second, can you provide instances of Pine town apologizing for not being around in the early game? I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

Third, Careers almost assuredly don't flip given the mod information that everyone has a career and the fact that GB didn't flip with a career, just as a test subject.

Fourth, if you can destroy labs and act normally at night, why didn't you attempt to destroy a lab on N0? There should have been no drawback to attempting given it would have been a free action and it's public knowledge that labs get harder to destroy when they're active, something I doubt you wouldn't have read with a role about destroying labs. If you can guarantee a lab's destruction (you more or less softed that with 792 and 827), then guaranteeing a lab's destruction early on for free is exactly equal to guaranteeing a lab's destruction late game for free, with the added benefit of it not risking you dying before you manage it.

Frankly, I don't think your actions line up to a town perspective and your claim is unbelievable. I think you're trying to railroad Pine, which is pretty much the entire reason I'm not going to vote for him.

[Bingle]

Bingle what do you think about ... well... anything? Is anyone scummy? Or town? You've posted a lot but I can't call anything you believe to mind

I firmly believe that Gamma is fakeclaiming (More on that later), but also that we can't afford to eliminate there at the moment in case I'm wrong. I think that the context of Gamma pushing Pine makes Pine a probable miselim, while I think Pine is pretty much pure null on his own merit. I do need to meta dive Pine to check Gamma's assertion that town Pine is more apologetic and dual-dive Gamma/Pine to see if it's likely Gamma believes that his assertion that town Pine is more apologetic to be true, but I've been busier than expected in meatworld and haven't done so yet.

You and skitts are roughly analogous in that I like the content you're putting out but don't necessarily townread you for it. I do think it's unlikely you're S/S though. I had a scumread on Cakez and Ydrasse yesterday, but it didn't keep strong vibes through the night and I haven't really had strong impressions from either of them. I'd still probably be down to wagon either. I think Nos, iks and Cmod are probably town in roughly that order of strength. I feel weirded out by ABR's lack of clear direction, but I ALSO lack clear direction this game so I'm left with the idea that it might not be an issue of his, but rather of the game itself.

That leaves me with a probable scum PoE of ABR, PP, You, F&G, Ydrasse, SC, but within that pool I'm more or less floundering on who I want to push.

[Bingle]

1 I've already answered that I don't know because the mod won't tell me, it isn't part of the role info and when I asked I was told it was scum-exclusive information, which I already said, so don't get pissy when you are the one who missed my post.

I didn't miss that point. The thing I'm pointing out is that you're using an appeal to probability (which is itself a flawed argument) based on unknown probabilities to crusade for Pine's elimination. It's entirely possible, from my perspective, that scum need to roll a 2 to activate a lab. It's entirely possible that scum need to roll a 6 to activate a lab. I don't think either of those are likely to be the case, but they're both possible. If the doctors need to roll a 3 to activate a lab, and have a knowledge of three, they succeed roughly 60% of the time with a knowledge of 3. Given a presumptive three scum, if two of them attempted to activate labs last night then they would have had a greater than 1/4 chance to succeed twice. If the target number is 4, they had a roughly 1/8 chance. The thing is that we really have no idea if either of those is the case. The entire case is based on probabilities I don't know, and can't know. Your presentation of it as a consensus scumread vote and then backtrack to a "it's mechanical" and then addendum of "it's also meta" is what gives me so many bad feelings about the push though.

4 I wanted more knowledge before I did that, so I explored in hopes of boosting my knowledge though some method. My ability to destroy labs outside of the speed stat isn't an infinite use action, there's a cap on it.

Yeah...

Gamma has claimed, in short, the following components to his role:

He can attempt to destroy labs in addition to other actions during the night.
He can virtually guarantee the ability to destroy labs a limited number of times.
He needs knowledge to use his power.
He did not attempt to destroy a lab on N0 or N1.
His ability explicitly functions differently for scum, implying it wouldn't necessarily go to town and thus that there is a smalltown element to the role assignment or something like a role thief that could steal a townsperson's role.

Each of these, individually, has an explanation. Cumulatively, they really don't.

Not acting on N0 or N1 implies that his free action ability is limited shot. That makes sense. However, he's also claimed that the ability to guarantee a lab's destruction is ALSO limited shot, which implies that for a certain number of nights Gamma can blow up a lab without a roll or action. Fine and dandy, I suppose. But why would he need knowledge at that point? If his ability to free action destroy a lab has no shot restriction, then there was no downside to attempting to destroy a lab on N0 and attempting to destroy a lab on N1, which he has claimed he didn't do. If his ability to free action destroy a lab has the same shot restriction as his ability to outright destroy a lab without rolling, he has no particular need for knowledge.

The only way all of his claims add up is as such: Gamma is claiming an X-shot autodestroying Y-shot actionless lab destroyer. Let's compare that claim to what's else has been claimed.

ABR is claiming something along the lines of damage multiplier.
Nos is reflexive stat setter.
CMod is a proven stat healer (who is claimed as one shot).
Ydrasse can attack an extra time at night.
JF gave +1 knowledge once.
I heal once per cycle when freely given an item.

Notice a difference between those claims? Cause there's one that doesn't seem to fit in with the rest.

[Bingle]

You understand my trepidation with IKS?

I understand that you have trepidation, but I don't really share it. I think the logic of 'if we all attack x, x will surely die, so we should use our attacks to make this a double day setup' is a fairly town approach to a complicated setup like this.

[Bingle]

why am I not in your scum PoE

You're not in the group of people I'm interested in pursuing for elimination atm because I'm not interested in eliminating you atm.

Seems pretty self explanatory to me.

[Bingle]

Bingle on Day 3 I think some of the problems you're seeing with my role will be resolved.

I literally prefaced that whole wall with "I don't think we can afford to eliminate Gamma today".

With that said, while I do have all of those issues, I don't think that you trying to explain them is a good idea at the moment for roughly the same reason as I don't think that eliminating you is a good idea, and I do see you leveraging your claim into wanting extra resources, such as the knowledge I told JF to give to Nos and control over the elimination today. I am more than happy to be proven wrong if I'm wrong, but for now I trust you roughly as far as I can throw you, and I 100% want to hedge my bets so that we benefit if I'm wrong or if I'm right. So, we spread the knowledge out to two different players so that both of them can break labs. Nos is likely town who also is likely to survive without losing knowledge.

[Bingle]

This is not inspiring any confidence from me towards your slot

Okay?

It wasn't a post designed to get me townreads. It was a post designed to show where I'm at wrt the thread. I'm more than capable of manipulating my way into being townread (as both alignments) but I frankly don't need to here. It's not really a secret that I don't particularly care what people's reads on me are until the endgame.

[Bingle]

I was that arrogant once upon a time

It's not arrogance, it's pragmatism. I can focus on being townread or I can focus on gamesolving. One of those is vastly more likely to win me the game.

wrt to the not having firm scumreads, it's not like I'm particularly happy about that situation. It's just that that is the situation I'm in. I definitely didn't set out this phase to go "Man, I hope I don't find anyone who is crazy scummy so I don't have to push scumreads."

[Bingle]

your ability to attack x times is based on your speed stat iirc

Narp.

ATTACKS/STEALS
Unless otherwise specified (e.g. by Items/abilities), each player may only perform a total of one attack or steal per Night, regardless of their action threshold.

I AM ASSASSIN.

my role allows me to attack someone as many times as my speed allows per night, rather than once; however, this does not allow me to do another specific action during the night.

i'm claiming because my other post didn't deter things but i would actually like to be useful and get multiple attacks off on scum, ty.

[Bingle]

Wait why is everyone afraid of us?

I very much want an answer to this ^

Same

I'll third this

At least for me it's not fear, it's just that skitts has a wide scumrange and she hasn't approached stepping out of it. Unless you're wondering about a lack of interaction in which case I just haven't seen/had time to interact much with you.

[Bingle]

That was quoting GE, but the you in question was F&G.

[Bingle]

Gamma what are your thoughts on F&G?

Let's extend this to

@everyone

Positive thread impact D1, severe taper in both activity and readability.

After a quick ISO skim, I vaguely liked 74 in the light of the existence of a roomstopper. Skitter outing herself under no pressure was also slightly town indicative, I think, because she has a reputation as scary scum. I disliked the mech speak into a "I should just let people like Bingle mechsolve" stance. They had considerably more content today than I remembered them having, which is interesting.

Is there something in particular there you think is worth voting, JF?

[Bingle]

I have a foolproof method of reading PP. Sheep irrelephant. Now we just need irrelephant to join the game so I can get his read on PP.

[Bingle]

.

[Bingle]

pagetop

link to VC on this page

[Bingle]

That one was for you, penguin.

[Bingle]

Or be scum! Then you know my alignment...right, Bingle?

Nah, I don't know your alignment when I'm scum. I just know that if you're scum so is A50.

[Bingle]

meh I'm just gonna

VOTE: Bingle again and see what happens.

Penguin, tryna pocket me again.

[Bingle]

So basically Ydrasse can attack with the normal one and as many action as he gets through speed? Is that correct?

No. Everyone gets x actions based on speed. Everyone can use one or zero of those actions to attack, if they want. Ydrasse can use any or all of her actions to attack, if she wants.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Bingle]

This just got explained to me elsewhere and I still don't think I understand

Pocketing is when you do an action designed to make someone like or trust you, particularly when that action isn't particularly AI.

In this case, I have a slight bias towards townreading what I see as legitimate scumreads on me and PP has a paranoia of my scumplay that would lend credence to the idea that I own a mind control device. Which I'm not saying I don't, but I don't use that, the weather controlling machine, or the satellite mounted death rays for an advantage in mafia. I do tend to twirl my mustache while tying players to train tracks though, so I at least partially conform to the stereotypes.

Mostly, though, it was a joke, because that's what I see the wagon on me as deserving.

[Bingle]

Chara replaces Pine. Thank you!

S tier not Pine. Chara, I have a strange rash, would you mind giving me a medical opinion if I link a picture?

[Bingle]

Until it murders us all.

[Bingle]

Oml so many replacements. this is messy.

It's inertia. The game slowed down and now it's having trouble starting back up again. Honestly, we just need to eliminate someone so that we have something to talk about again.

I say this, fully aware that my own lack of participation has in no way helped alleviate this problem.

[Bingle]

Strongest read, yes.

I'd be interested to hear how this is at all like my scumgame, tbh.

[Bingle]

Bingle, do u know how to read abr ????

~ skitter

Not really, no. He was crazy OMGUS-y in the Idea game we played as town and tunneled super hard on town as town in the saw game. He's always been very aggressive at pushing things even when those things didn't make any sense to me, which seems consistent with current ABR. I haven't seen scum him in like half a decade to compare though, afaicr.

I'm a little peeved that Penguin has a strong scum read on me for the reason that I don't seem consistent with either my town or scum game, except for NAI mechanical stuff. Which is consistent across both. Feels like he's pushing me because I expect him to push me, tbh. Johnny, why are you voting me again?

[Bingle]

ABR, PP, You, F&G, Ydrasse, SC

This has evolved to be roughly

PP>Noraa>JF>SC>ABR>F&G

I'd still vote any of them though, if the alternative was no elimination.

VOTE: PP

[Bingle]

I’ll switch it up and not quote.

You’re entrance today with scumreads on cakeman and Noraa slot yet voting Johnny slot and then not doing much else with your vote until recently.

That matched up with your scumreads on cakeman and Noraa slot yesterday yet voting for what ended up being a miselim.

Yeah... Except that also doesn't make any sense.

I entered today saying my reads were stale and I couldn't remember them, except that I had scumread cakeman and Noraa. And I was actively pushing both of those slots yesterday until deadline compromising to get literally any elimination at all. My play yesterday and today, like my level of motivation for the game yesterday and today, have been worlds apart. Today has been characterized by literally the only player I strongly scumread being firmly off the table for mechanical reasons, and empty promises of future content that I inevitably fail to follow through on because I don't really give enough of a shit to do a meta dive for this game at the moment.

[Bingle]

Not really, no. There's a mechanical argument that neither should be eliminated, but that mechanical argument is also pretty weak, tbh. In both cases.

ABR could kill scum and be functionally conftown, and Noraa could maybe prove herself less likely to be a roomstopper at some future point. If Noraa's claim is true, she's probably not a Doctor because the role doubles up on a factional ability, but it also takes at least 2 nights to confirm that. And likely more, because there's no reason scum doesn't roomblock the gym again with the rooms we have available.

[Bingle]

Everyonr except like you, gamma, and cmod

Yeah... none of those people have been super towny.

PP has been suspecting me, which is exactly what PP of either alignment does. (Source, the last 4 games I played with PP.)

Gamma's roleclaim was all sorts of sketch.

cmod's confirmed role and double item status (which he was supposed to prove I think) is the towniest part about him, but the "I WANT TO USE MY ONESHOT ROLE RIGHT NOW TO PROVE IT EXISTS!" was actually pretty scummy and the rolefishy way he went about the pigeon was pretty gross, tbh.

Nos has been by far the towniest person in the thread and he's not even in the thread.

[Bingle]

The claims are functionally the same but with ABR withi,ding specifics.

No? ABR claimed he's a vig. Ydrasse claimed she can multiattack. Stepping back a moment from the big differences, I don't see why there wouldn't necessarily be two roles like that in the town. Maybe you could argue they're not both scum, but the issue with that is that by the time Noraa is set up to prove her role exists we may well be approaching endgame.

Further, the utility in ABR's role is that he can actually kill a player outright, which is a direct counter to both me and CMod's roles. Noraa is potentially way stronger as a proven role than a vig, because making multiple attacks when her stats are similar to the targets' doesn't particularly make it likely that she'll kill them.

The level of overlap is similar to me and Cmod, where cmod heals someone else and I have a way for others to heal me. There's not really a role disagreement there.

[Bingle]

bingle who do you even townread then ...

Nos. Vaguely I think iks is probably town, but that's not a hill I'd die on.

[Bingle]

Attack x speed is an attack multiplier, no?

ABR's claim is that if he attacks he's more likely to kill.

Noraa's claim is that she can attack multiple times if speed would let her do so.

Are you legitimately not seeing a difference there?

[Bingle]

The working assumption that ABR has avoided talking about is that he has some multiplier to his damage output.

[Bingle]

i'm kinda disappointed

You're kinda disappointed because you think I should have more townreads? Who should I be townreading here? You? ABR? Pineslot?

Like... I don't have reads because I haven't seen things that really strike me as indicative. This entire PL has been a big ball of null, myself included. The fact that we haven't been able to get a wagon past two or three players other than the wagon on the guy who posted like three times total and then lurk replaced kinda proves my point.

[Bingle]

what about i keep siteflaking? nobody townreads him

Seriously skitter? You're telling me you townread this?

[Bingle]

There was also this whole thing where skitter thought that Johnny was faking being behind on the mechanics and slipped about knowing that scum had an ability to give knowledge.

The counter argument, of course, is "why would Johnny who wants to clear himself based on role redundancy outright say that his role came from a random room event?"

[Bingle]

i'd have preferred a response wherein you explained the bad penguin vote or you explain how you only have 1.5 townreads at this stage

I only have 1.5 townreads because I can see literally all of the people as scum. It's not a difficult concept. I voted Penguin because of all the people who I think are legitimate options for today, he's the one that I think is the best elimination for the ability to win the game. He's not likely to do much of anything while I'm around. I'm not likely to do much of anything while he's around. He, just like just about everyone, could very well be scum. He's done absolutely nothing town indicative, and dealing with his perpetual tunnels on me is just getting exhausting, tbh. It's not even really his fault, I just don't have enough motivation to deal with it even though I usually enjoy our banter.

[Bingle]

lol get out of here with this flailing

Dude, the major topic of conversation for the previous page was that I townread Nos and somewhat iks. Skitter had towncased iks literally yesterday. And yet you wanted to pivot off of me onto iks because 'no one townreads him' while PP was actively pushing me.

Do you think you should be townread?

[Bingle]

bingle unfortunatley i think i need to vote you at this time

Eh. It's a C9++ situation.

Wow. My opinion of Bingle has literally just dropped with that post. Just as a player.

:shrugs:

[Bingle]

I don't see fighting down my elimination as being worth the effort in the long term chances of the town. I legitimately haven't done anything that's worth keeping me around for, so it's hard to blame people for not keeping me around.

[Bingle]

i'd have preferred a response wherein you explained the bad penguin vote or you explain how you only have 1.5 townreads at this stage

I only have 1.5 townreads because I can see literally all of the people as scum. It's not a difficult concept. I voted Penguin because of all the people who I think are legitimate options for today, he's the one that I think is the best elimination for the ability to win the game. (

since when is this an accurate description of penguin

) He's not likely to do much of anything while I'm around. (

why? since when is this a thing?

) I'm not likely to do much of anything while he's around. He, just like just about everyone, could very well be scum.

no, he's p clearly out of his scumrange and i think i talked about this at least three times already. handwaving the towniness away as 'well he might just be scum' without having any concrete examples is bad and omgus-y

He's done absolutely nothing town indicative (

wrong

), and dealing with his perpetual tunnels on me is just getting exhausting, tbh. It's not even really his fault, I just don't have enough motivation to deal with it even though I usually enjoy our banter.

Skitter, compare Penguin's play here to this game, and tell me he's outside of his scum range. Because he's tunneled me basically the same amount. In fact, his defining trait in literally every game we've played since Fogport is tunneling me. Me and Penguin both being alive is at best a distraction and at worst a smokescreen for scumPenguin to hide behind.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81863&

You have discussed his scumrange, in vague and uncertain terms, and using references from before that game.

[Bingle]

Oh, and because these kinda fell by the wayside:

nobody can call 55 pages of content null

I never did. I said they were net-null. There are individual towny and scummy things people have done, and I have talked about those things. They just haven't led me to conclusions.

claims don't even matter this game I thought this was established

They do, it hasn't, and it never will be.

[Bingle]

lol get out of here with this flailing

Dude, the major topic of conversation for the previous page was that I townread Nos and somewhat iks. Skitter had towncased iks literally yesterday. And yet you wanted to pivot off of me onto iks because 'no one townreads him' while PP was actively pushing me.

Do you think you should be townread?

I wasn't on you in the first place I was on ABR
Yeah I've done more this game than a good amount of the players

Oh, I'm sorry, were you lying? And what the fuck does "I've done more" have to do with "I deserve a townread"?

i'm kinda disappointed

You're kinda disappointed because you think I should have more townreads? Who should I be townreading here? You? ABR? Pineslot?

Like... I don't have reads because I haven't seen things that really strike me as indicative. This entire PL has been a big ball of null, myself included. The fact that we haven't been able to get a wagon past two or three players other than the wagon on the guy who posted like three times total and then lurk replaced kinda proves my point.

give us something to work with or die

what about i keep siteflaking? nobody townreads him

[Bingle]

a) there's a distinct lack of tunneling you in that game
b) there's a lot more fluff/flippancy in relation to the amount of content he put out there, and a lack of conviction, and i would say that this is game is just the opposite. incidentally, i think behaving in the former way is strongly indicative of scum!him, and behaving in the latter is strongly indicative of town!him

There's a chance it's bias. But that's kind of also my point.

[Bingle]

1355 is not "on you"

"Give us content or die."

"I totally wasn't supporting your elimination with that post."

[Bingle]

Me and Penguin both being alive is at best a distraction and at worst a smokescreen for scumPenguin to hide behind.

[Bingle]

a) there's a distinct lack of tunneling you in that game
b) there's a lot more fluff/flippancy in relation to the amount of content he put out there, and a lack of conviction, and i would say that this is game is just the opposite. incidentally, i think behaving in the former way is strongly indicative of scum!him, and behaving in the latter is strongly indicative of town!him

There's a chance it's bias. But that's kind of also my point.

Except I haven’t legitimately pushed you before. And you just quoted a game where I didn’t tunnel you at all but convinced you re:mechanics that I was town.

Pengy, I love you and I want you in my life but 2 of our most recent games you wanted to vote me in XLO after I was mechanically confirmed town by the flipped tracker and when I had a role that I had claimed that was literally going to kill me before the endgame.

[Bingle]

Bingle if you're town I will make it my life's purpose to make sure Penguin dies

Fucking seriously, skitter?

[Bingle]

Why would it even make sense for the town to have a vig when the scum can barely nightkill?

You'll note of course that ABR is on the table for today, as far as I'm concerned. His claimed role is also synergistic with the doctor abilities in that the extra doctor attack could be used to imitate his claim in the case that he's lying, and his claimed role is a perfect counter to my own (I'm difficult to kill piecemeal, because I can heal literally every day phase if we want me to.)

The argument for not killing him is that he's been aggressive in a way that's consistent with town him and he could conf himself by killing scum.

[Bingle]

Bingle if you're town I will make it my life's purpose to make sure Penguin dies

Fucking seriously, skitter?

Engage me stop asking Skitter to save you

Okay, let's ask the obvious question. Why would the response to "Penguin and I can't be trusted to read each other so even if we're both town one of us dying doesn't suck" be "If you flip town, I'll kill Penguin"? I'm very clearly NOT 1v1ing here. I don't think that Penguin is lockscum. He's could be scum and there are benefits to his elimination over the rest of the could be scums, but what part of the last 20 pages implies that I would want anyone to crusade for his death after my townflip?

And more importantly, what thread are you reading where you thought that was a legitimate thing? It certainly isn't this one.

Bingle if you're town I will make it my life's purpose to make sure Penguin dies

Fucking seriously, skitter?

i'm not following what the issue is

~ skitter
(note that i did not write 1419)

No, you're townreading Cakez.

[Bingle]

Real talk: you snowed me in Fogport which I respect and, yes, did harbor some paranoia after for awhile. I’m riffing and joking about that mostly now, and if I’ve been wrong about you recently it’s because I’m not awesome at this game and some people are convincing.

It doesn’t change anything I’ve called out as suspect in this game.

To be perfectly clear, I don't hold either of those games against you. It's just that fighting back the paranoia gets exhausting and this is already a low motivation game for me. I just think that there is a good chance that you're scum hiding behind an expected scumread on me. I fully admit I could be wrong, and you could be town here. That doesn't really change my evaluation of the thread.

[Bingle]

Bingle I misunderstood your SR on Penguin I thought it was very strong
Noraa you should prob stop joining more games if you're overwhelmed

Literally the point of the push on me is that I don't have strong reads right now.

[Bingle]

So, skitter. Gonna share with me why the townread on Cakez?

[Bingle]

Early town block: Johnny, ABR, Noraa, Bingle
Null: Nos
Scum lean: Sircakez, Penguin, Fun and games,

That's definitely not a consensus readslist.

[Bingle]

I'm going to bed, unfortunately I've been too busy for mafia today. I do have a guarantee I'll be on in roughly 8 hours though (I have a Zoom meeting I'm definitely not paying attention to), so I'll be around at deadline.

VOTE: Noraa

[Bingle]

Would prefer either that or SC to F&G tbh. Don't really think it's a viable shift though.

[Bingle]

6 hours. VOTE: bingle

E-1

Someone better pick it up. Bingle if you have a claim now would be the time

I claimed days ago, it’s just that no one noticed. I heal one in any stat below it’s starting value when given an item, limit once per day.

[Bingle]

I would rather you vig Chara slot than F&G. ABR.

Was town, pretty sure iks hammered.

[Bingle]

JIC,

VOTE: Bingle

[Bingle]

I wasn't really trying very hard to derail my elimination. I am fairly confident that the interactions surrounding my wagon are a net bonus though.

Take all of my reads with a grain of salt, I'm not solid on any of them. Cakez posting for the last 36 hours or so has been all sorts of gross, just looking for an elimination and not scum but trying to hide it behind reasoning that proves he wasn't even paying the slightest attention. I think skitter's reaction to being bandwagoned was town, and both wagons look like they're town driven with scum just kind of sheeping on.

Keeping me alive after my Pengy vote was pretty much never an option, which I knew when I made the vote.

[Bingle]

I would expect the lion's share of scum to be on F&G rather than me, but there is definitely scum in both groups.

[Bingle]

Eh. I twilight and endgame troll frequently.

[Bingle]

Also, please remember that Doctors and other witchcraft are forbidden under the sacred law of the red planet.

[Bingle]

But what if F&G is my scumbuddy and just set them up to crush the endgame because the lack of a full nightkill functionally guarantees the lack of a full investigative?

Did you consider that?

[Bingle]

PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald

Fun and Games

Nosferatu
GeorgeBailey
Pine

beeboy - Null line.
CreativeMod1
Albert B. Rampage

DoctorPepper

Ydrasse
SirCakez

Huh. Better early reads than I expected, tbh.

Thanks for modding Lilith, game was a blast. As far as balance goes, I haven’t really looked too hard, but I suspect it was fairly townsided. More importantly, though, it was fun. If a game is sufficiently fun, it doesn’t need to be perfectly balanced.

I might give some advice on general approaches to balancing a game later though. Just remember to take anything I say with salt, as I don’t mod nearly as much as I used to and I’m fairly rusty.

[Bingle]

Also, feel free to release my pt and the dead pt early. No redactions here.

[Bingle]

Bungle how do you rate Dk’s mech play attempts

Honestly didn't pay enough attention to the mech side of things to be able to judge after I died. From what little I did read, it seemed they weren't the best at explaining their solve, but that the premises behind it were fairly sturdy and that they probably would have been a bit more effective if they had someone to play peacemaker and cut down the frustration.

We mostly griped about Noraaslot being townread, sircakez slot not being townread, and everyone limming F&G after I made it a point to make swinging the elimination onto them instead of me nonviable.

FWIW, I don't think ABR replaced out because he was scum or as a tactical move. I think that ABR replaced out because he felt the game was unfairly stacked against him and he was genuinely not having fun. Personally, I would have seen the game through, but I don't really have an issue with people replacing out, even of bad positions, if they're genuinely that salty about the game. I think forcing yourself to stay in and risking your anger making the thread toxic. It's pretty much the exact same thing as happened with LLD and Krazy in AliPine, except they forced themselves to stay in a game that was pissing them the hell off and the game as a whole suffered for it. I don't think forcing yourself to stay in a game you would otherwise replace out of because you're worried it might be seen as tactical is any better for site culture than replacing out as scum because you think you're going to lose/don't like playing as scum/insert other bullshit excuse here.

@DK, if you're trying to work on increasing your charisma in games, I'd suggest two courses of action. Find someone you like/get along with well and hydra with them so they can act as a thread buffer and a venting buddy if you get frustrated, or try to curate games so that there's a critical mass of people you get along with. I've seen both choices chill people out and make them enjoy the game a lot more, which in turn makes it much easier for them to have a friendlier thread presence. I'd offer to sign up for games with you, but I'm being kinda selective at the moment based on busyness IRL and the potential of a long term mafia commitment.

Also, I'm the only one who is allowed to have faults. Fuck all of you, I'm the protagonist in this here story.

[Bingle]

The 0-2 dice is a source material gimmick, and was a central conceit of the setup. It's why I assumed 4 scum.

I can definitely get the frustration of being scum without a nightkill though, especially in a setup with this high a potential for conftown and such a high chance to be royally fucked by random chance.

I don't know that running this again would be viable, even with balance changes, CMod, given that there is so much that hidden information that became public, and the sheer level of swing involved. It's the problem with super complicated setups like this: they're a ton of work for one shot at a game. With that said, feel free to prove me wrong.

[Bingle]

Only 3.5/10 on pagetops, though.

[Bingle]

"god if tw is scum,

the scumteam made some questionable decisions

"

Isn't that true of every game where you're scum ducky?

[Bingle]

number one rule of fair (non-bastard) game design: don't allow scum to become conftown in a way town could NEVER anticipate (so if they're allowed to do X anti-wincon thing and it might "conftown" them if they do it, the mod should be upfront about the possibility if asked).

Agreed. I'd always tell players in my games that scum could target each other with night kills if they asked.

Wait scum werent allowed to attack partners??

I'd assume they were, but that was a philosophy thing.

Also, Jingle is me when modding, for those who don't know. I just wanted that post to show up in my modding account ego.