Mini Theme 2264: Fusion Upick | Post Game

[Nathann]

VOTE: Almost50

6 more votes here, then we can play a normal game of mafia afterwards, yeah?

Pedit: 5 more.

[Nathann]

Also, while we're on the first page:

I am a Miller.

Kind of. I investigate as both town and mafia. And I flip as both town and mafia. Cool? Cool.

[Nathann]

Would a cat eat a monkey?

[Nathann]

Also, while we're on the first page:

I am a Miller.

Kind of. I investigate as both town and mafia. And I flip as both town and mafia. Cool? Cool.

What do you mean you investigate as both town and mafia? Like it's 50-50?

@Cat: Do you seriously believe that claim? I thought it was an obvious troll (the "I flip as both town and mafia" at least)

I mean literally what I said - I investigate as both town and mafia at the same time.

And I'm dead (haha) serious about flipping as both town and mafia.

[Nathann]

Yeah, I did pick Miller, so someone else's role must also be part Miller.

Pedit: literally what it says in my post.

[Nathann]

Yeah, I did pick Miller, so someone else's role must also be part Miller.

Pedit: literally what it says in my post.

Quick rundown on why you felt the need to claim so early?

...Because that's what Millers should do?

[Nathann]

Toogeloo lock town. gg

Why?

You know, if mafia were to get the role of "Miller" or part of it, then it would be easy to substantiate that claim because somebody else has part of it too, right?

Isn't this the case for literally every single role claim?

[Nathann]

Hmm.

VOTE: Nordom

[Nathann]

Are you a fusion of Miller and Godfather?

I may be, I don't know what I am a fusion of.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Nordom
So if you flip as both, which wincon must you achieve?

The town one. I am not a third party with a dual wincon.

Any of you actually scumread Nordom? My vote was not RVS, for the record.

[Nathann]

Are you a fusion of Miller and Godfather?

I may be, I don't know what I am a fusion of.

This is a lie but that's fine because you're probably town.

Uh, my role PM did not tell me what my pick was fused with. Yours did?

[Nathann]

It's in my role name and ability description.

Neither my role name nor ability description allow me to guess what Miller was fused with.

Why do you think I'm probably town despite lying?

[Nathann]

Gut tells me Almost50 is probably town.

[Nathann]

Why do you think I'm probably town despite lying?

He doesn't think it. He knows it. Read on.

I did read on. I don't think you've caught what you think you've caught, but I will let him defend himself.

[Nathann]

Also, Nathan. I'm going to assume for the moment that your vote on me was a "gut-read" or something, but could you explain your vote on me a bit?

I thought your 40 and 41, as well as the other posts surrounding the topic, were

weird

. It felt odd to me that you're seemingly singling out my claim and explaining why it would benefit mafia to make such a claim,

without

actually accusing me of being scum - if you're explaining why an action can be scum!motivated but aren't accusing the person doing the action of being scum, then what's the point of the explanation in the first place? It feels pointless, as if you're posting just for the sake of posting.

I didn't wanna jump on it, since I have a tendency to misread pointless early mech discussion as coming from scum. However, 43 was awkward enough to really move the needle for me. If you're a tryhard who goes deep into discussion early, fine. But to then snap out of it and place a basically-RVS vote after you've gotten out of RVS? I think it's more likely to come from scum who's just posting whatever, instead of a townie with a consistent thought process.

(And before anyone asks, no, I don't consider Nordom to be 100% lockscum because of it or whatever, I'm not

that

good. It's a place to start, though.)

The fact that you had 3 other votes, yet everyone who voted you ignored my "does anyone actually scumread him?" question feels like it should tell me something, but I don't know what yet.

It's in my role name and ability description.

Neither my role name nor ability description allow me to guess what Miller was fused with.

Why do you think I'm probably town despite lying?

Because I'm pretty sure I know what your role is.

Not sure how much I like this reply, considering that roles aren't alignment-locked, as far as I can tell.

[Nathann]

On this whole Roden/Almost50 nonsense:

At first I thought that Roden was doing a weird reaction test on me by asking me if I'm a Miller/Godfather combo. 63 was pretty clear to me, though, "the role name and description make it easy to guess what you were fused with". I don't think my role description does that, however I do think that the sample role PMs do make it relatively easy to make a guess, maybe not the exact one, but close enough.

I'm not saying Roden is town because of this, but I don't think this makes him scum. I stand by my townread on Almost50, 122 feels like a post that is made by a townie who believes they've caught a slip, but is also willing to reconsider. I think if he were scum who was trying to push town!Roden, he wouldn't have opened that possibility, especially as votes were piling onto Roden.

[Nathann]

Knowing who's madding the game I can't tell if there's a standard 10-3 distribution or not. Anything is possible with Meg, so I'll just leave it at that

Its in the rules.

The wording is very specific. It does not say that we don't have 3P or a second groupscum, just that a three person scum team exists.

I love that you can argue the ambiguity of role pms is still clear enough to tell what your specific fusions are, but the specifics of the rules should be considered ambiguous for the setup.

I really hate this post. It feels like comparing things that aren't comparable just to throw shade and fuel the fire of a shitfight. Like, Roden isn't saying the rules are "ambiguous", if anything he's saying they're clear - "there is a 3-person scumteam". The rules don't make any claims about the existence of a 3p or another scumteam, so he's not drawing conclusions about them.

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Nathann]

119 also rubs me the wrong way, so the fact that 121 is a post that exists makes me want to reconsider on Nordom.

UNVOTE: Ircher

VOTE: Almost50

Read Almost's post 122 and decide if that was a genuine town post.

Uh. Why though.

A50 Town, Roden Scum, Ircher... Not sure, leaning Town.

Why do you find Ircher to be leaning town?

Nathann is lying because he's claiming to invest/flip as town/scum, but somehow does not know if he's a Miller/Godfather fusion or what the other half of his fusion is at all. Literally no other role would cause that effect but he's apparently completely clueless about it. This isn't a 200 IQ deduction. I think he's town because the lie likely comes from a town mind set.

*blinks*
The fact that I also invest as town could come from the fact that... I am town...
Also, what is the town mindset behind lying about what you think is so obvious?

[Nathann]

Alright, I have townfeels on Almost50, and... Enchant, surprisingly. 141 and 142 feel pure. And I'm not sure if scum would go from "I would vote Roden for that too" to "that's not actually a scumslip" in the span of 4 minutes.

Everyone else is null or vaguely scummy. Can whoever is town step it up pls.

[Nathann]

You called me?

Sure. Got any hot takes on the game so far?

[Nathann]

There's a different thing that interests me here and it's

who

submitted Miller as a pick, since it is bound to influence their role as well. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be a Miller.

You might wanna reread 27.

[Nathann]

Roden flipped town? That case on him wasn't a godsend? Who could have seen that coming.

From quickly skimming the game, my first thoughts are (a) why did Ircher abandon the rest of his hero-solve? (b) Greeting is committing a specific scumtell, but it's probably not a lock coming from him.

I'll read in depth at some point in the near future.

[Nathann]

What's your read on Rosen aside from the scum slip? What do you think about his a50 push?

Perhaps a bit pointless answering this

after

they've flipped, but - I didn't think much of his Almost50 push because it felt like a natural thing to do as either alignment. Like I said, the callout/"scumslip" felt very weak to me, and I think the most likely thing for town to do there is start scumreading that push, while the most likely thing for scum to do there is try to overturn the push onto the attacker.

I don't have much on him aside from the "scumslip". I wanna say the emotion and annoyance he showed is town!indicative, but this might be hindsight speaking.

Imo there's no reason to not keep Roden alive to Day 2 and "Then" elim, if mind doesh't change (and it often does). It kinda boosts chances to hit maf if he is real deal.
If mafia shot him, then... well cool? They did job for us.

VOTE: Roden

I am sick of this.

What changed from the first post to the second?

[Nathann]

Sure, calling it out doesn't make Almost50 scum, but he has high scum equity regardless.

It's complicated.

Hopefully I am not the only person extremely dissatisfied with this answer. In addition, what happened to 171?

Reading through 316, I see Radical Rat calling a Vengeful Gunsmith "entirely useless", which, how? That role sounds pretty powerful to me, what did you think a Vengeful Gunsmith does?

I'm not overly impressed with the rest of Nordom's case, though. Even if Radical Rat had confused Vengeful with Supersaint... Like, so what? If they truly were scum trying to say anything they can to get the yeet through, implying Roden's a Supersaint, i.e. kills whoever hammers, is less likely to get it through, not more. Yes, I know Radical Ra's verdict was that Roden's bluffing, but it would still put the thought in people's heads.

[Nathann]

And that specific scumtell is...?

Come on, it's boring if I just lay it out.

[Nathann]

I thought it would be clear that I really did not find them convincing.

[Nathann]

Re 325, I do want to know what Radical Rat was thinking when they made 224, particularly the "Which means the role is now anti-Town" part.

More town on wagon = Higher chance of missing the shot = Anti-Town

Ah. Yeah, that's not how Vengeful works, but sure, fine, checks out.

351 actually makes me think Ircher might be town? I dunno, he's saying what I'm thinking. If he's scum with neither of Nordom/Radical, I don't see why he tries to break this up. If he's scum with Nordom, I don't see why he feels the need to butt in now. I can maybe sorta if-I-squint see the scum motivation if he's scum with Radical, but it still feels unlikelier than him just being town?

I have a feeling Nordom is about to announce that he's solved the game and that the solve is me/Ircher/Radical.

@Nordom, I explained why I don't find it convincing. Implying they might be a Supersaint is less likely to get people to hammer, not more likely.

The crappy part about this whole thing, though, is that now that I'm reading 354, I vibe with it... Until the last part. How did you conclude from that that it's likely a fakeclaim?

[Nathann]

I'm not overly impressed with the rest of Nordom's case, though. Even if Radical Rat had confused Vengeful with Supersaint... Like, so what? If they truly were scum trying to say anything they can to get the yeet through, implying Roden's a Supersaint, i.e. kills whoever hammers, is less likely to get it through, not more. Yes, I know Radical Ra's verdict was that Roden's bluffing, but it would still put the thought in people's heads.

Literally right after the "so what?", which you called out earlier...

While I was reading the game, I felt how Galron's being lazy by saying something along the lines of "I don't get Nordom's case, but he's probably town for laying it out" or something, but now I'm tempted to just lazy-townread Nordom for the sheer amount of... Power of will, I guess. And the turnaround on Radical in some 15 minutes. Doesn't feel like something the majority of scum here would even bother to fake.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Greeting

I wanna try this, I liked CSF's points here. And the ~secret scumtell~ I've seen. I also have some other ideas that I wanna sit on for a while to see how they unfold.

[Nathann]

How is "if scum!Radical Rat was projecting the fact that Roden claimed Supersaint, that would make Roden

less

likely to get hammered, and not

more

, therefore I don't think that shows a 'must push yeet through' scummy motivation from Radical" swerving around?

To touch on 356, no, Radical's acting around the Roden wagon isn't

great

, but I don't think anyone's is, and that's you very much included. Besides, I said that the fact they called a "Vengeful Gunsmith" useless is a good find, not like I was trashing any and all of your case.

[Nathann]

Radical, what did you originally think a Vengeful Gunsmith does that you thought it was useless?

[Nathann]

Nothing I've seen from Greeting makes me want to unvote him.

Greeting's posts objectively feel like what I've seen from town!him in the game he mentioned (Open 838, I played in it too), but they also feel like a strange copy. The shape is there, the content feels off.

He's making general claims about how scum would usually position themselves around an EoD wagon, but it's not actually being

applied

to this game. He's focusing on the people off-wagon because that pool is

smaller

, not because something about the game made him think it's more likely scum was off-wagon. And this is kind of especially concerning to me when the wagon that resulted in the misyeet was so icky.

Also, his Galron read is making me question whether we're reading the same game. In what universe is Galron questioning how fusions work actually solving or influencing the game? Why would scum have no reason to question fusions? Where is he showing an impact on this game? Like, to me he doesn't read very different from that Open, so the final verdict of "he's town or upped his scumgame" is not something I'm seeing. Feels kind of like a TMI read.

The Flea read is whatever, the only part that amuses me though is once again implying that Galron has like,

done something

this game.

And because nobody wants to play the guessing game with me - Greeting was the only one to comment on the nightkill and what it could mean. I find that's usually something that comes from scum, since they're the ones that had just spent the night planning the nightkill after all.

[Nathann]

What makes you think that general observations of mafia somehow don't apply to this game?

That's not how that works. If you want to claim a vague general principle applies to this game, you need to actually give proof why it does.

I could say that scum are likely to post less than town is. So would I be able to pull up the Activity overview, list the bottom three names on it, and conclude that's the scumteam? No, I'd have to give some reasoning on why I think it's likely this game has extremely low scum activity.

And, like I said, that wagon was horrible, so the fact that you're using that "general principle" to avoid looking at it is, uh, sketchy.

In this case, the scums in my opinion clearly did not want to reveal information by killing Andante. Why do you think that me wanting to figure out the purpose of the nightkill makes me scum?

I think you mentioning the nightkill is somewhat +scum. And the fact that you mentioned it, and then did not do anything with that information, is +++scum.

[Nathann]

Yeah, I went with the wagon, but because I agreed with the arguments presented. Sadly, I wasn't around past Roden's claim which would have made me withdraw.

Why would you have withdrawn? What did the claim change about the arguments you say you agreed with?

Let me just say that I had a very good reason to believe the Vengeful + Gunsmith claim from

Roden

, but I saw it past hammer.

Even if you had reason to believe the claim was true, that doesn't make Roden town...?

[Nathann]

Ircher, how many votes do you have to be on for you to actually start elaborating on your thought process and on the asked questions?

[Nathann]

Sure, I cannot stop you. I can call you out for looking scummy as heck, though.

And there were no alignment-conclusions on anyone from your NKA, so I don't really consider that

doing

something with the information.

[Nathann]

Nathann is off the table regardless of alignment

Hm?

Agreed on being careful with votes, and don't think I see downsides to a massclaim. Will get to the rest of this tomorrow, been a busy few days for me.