Mini 699: Insane Asylum Mafia: Game Over

[Corvuus]

4a) Anyone or anything that reaches lynch count will be lynched, regardless of whether they are actually in the game or not.

Hmm, I happened upon this old thing right here while I was reading the thread. Pay no mind

Hey, I'm still alive?

Lookie, everyone, Forbiddan wants us to lynch her!

(Jester *cough*)

Lynch any thing?
Lynch the jailer with a swing,
Find a key,
then we'll be free?

Vote: For Jailer holding the key so we can get out of here.

end the joke,
time for a random poke.

Unvote, Vote Electra

[Corvuus]

Mirth, my friend:
I have no PR; just pretend.

Fairly Crazy, Fairly Sane,
....Rhyming hurts my brain.

-----------------

Two millers, rowing down the stream
quite insane; it fits the theme.
but by chance is it impossible to dream,
that both be mafia, gambling the extreme?

Hard to fathom, hard to gleam;
Such a difficult scheme!;
would make any role wish to scream!

[Corvuus]

Seven Seven! Seven Seven!
Seven Seven! Eleven!

I am crazy, you are sane.
Mind illusion; wrong with brain!

I can not lie; I listen.
Your eye, a beautiful glisten.

You call for help! I run; tell.
I will resist this evil spell!

not mad! am sane! I will wake, but not today!

---------------------------------------------

broken broken!
so many words spoken!

Complex Complex!
I wonder what is next.

I hate schizophrenic!
Everything is not authentic!

A personality change every day!
Hahahaha, a play with no way!


---------------------------------------------

Miller Miller!
One must be a killer!

oh, i hate living in a thriller!
Trust insanity, Trust a pillar!

[Corvuus]

Order Order, I can not tell.
Choice choice! choice of spell!

Today I rhyme with insane reason.
Soon no rhyme, out of season.

If morrow comes; I still remain;
Surely then, all be plain.

--------

Am aware, of my choice.
None are good, none to voice.

Choice to speak; speak by riddle;
Choice to speak, gibberish with a fiddle.

......!!!!!

Bold Bold!
Truth be told.

.....!!!!

Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,

Life is

but a

scream.

------------------

Example Example
Speculation ample.

......!!!!!!

Argh, I hate.
Not speaking straight.
At this rate...
Light desecrate!

UNVOTE

FoS: Forbiddanlight.

----

I eat my bowl,
taste a role!
It has some flavor
Lying Miller gains no favor.

I am perplexed;
Millers vexed.

...

This place makes me hate!
Millers abound, too much bait!
Although i wish to be polite!
I still think something is wrong with the Light!

It is twisted, it is real.
The suspicion I have, that I feel.

Forbiddanlight is mafia supreme.
Feel, We all victims, trapped in theme.
crazy! quite the scream!
I noxious with this scheme.

Dread the thought approach,
what better insane miller bait, then those who poach?
If morrow comes, and poach declare;
Wary I, and I do despair.

-----

Be aware, but beware;
Trying to compare
tastiness in this sordid affair.

[Corvuus]

I read the link.
Miller day1 claim really stinks.

Vote Forbiddanlight

[Corvuus]

I propose a toast,
to our millers and our host!

Please elucidate your role,
in that I mean make it whole.
Tell us if death, or normal miller.
Perchance by that, we find a killer?

Three miller is quite the claim.
They proclaim without shame.
Must keep them talking to lay a trap
only then can we take a nap.

Unvote

Vote: Juls

[Corvuus]

@Corvuss - Why did you just make a joke vote against the mod after we had three miller claims?

I am trying to contribute!
My vote I did distribute!

Joke vote I made
Insanity of this parade!

I am voting for a miller
exert pressure, potential killer.

[Corvuus]

All miller please correct and clarify with "full" claim.
I am not 100% sure if death or normal; say your name.

Tajo is a miller, death!
possible WIFOM, pursue is waste of breath?

Juls and Mana_ku claim miller, as counter.
Not death miller, but normal encounter?

----

Miller role very rare?;
Gambit for scum as first claim, would they dare?

Ah, but if by chance, first claim is real.
would scum be so daring, to counter appeal?

Even more confusing,
but perhaps amusing,
is another counter claim appears,
and yet this does nothing to ease my fears.

If 2nd or 3rd is scum, why would they claim?
What could be, their possible aim?

For scum to claim, first second or third.
Based on this info alone, decision absurd.

But we must make a guess,
press on we must, and on each do press.

[Corvuus]

I can do types of rhyme, (a)
insane and sane, devious mind! (b)
I improve and am better over time. (a)
I will try to make sense, and be refined. (b)

-----------------------

Possible millers in cahoots.
but please remember, this game's roots.

"They got together two of their closest friends"
I don't want to mod WIFOM to horrible ends,
but if this is a mafia gambit and 3 of us are evil,
would 2 risk such an outing, such a huge upheaval?

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:
Always start this with a toast to our host!

--

In beginning, 2 miller claim.
Quite possible, both mafia with no shame.
Before the 3rd, suspicion, I ponders,
but now with 3, my mind just wanders!

I try to grasp and clutch at straws,
yet for 3 claims, there has to be a cause.
I doubt all 3 are perfect town;
but how to suspect 1 or 2 clowns?

If in cahoots, and at least 2 are scum buddy;
Then the analysis gets rather muddy.

Would a scum counter claim a scum?
Sneaky and tricky, trying to prove his chum!
Or expect a real miller to counter claim the first bum,
and then the 2nd scum hopss on, and leaves us dumb.

Or perhaps, an impossible dream.
All 3 are scum, trying an insane scheme.

[Corvuus]

If I understand correctly; (let me know if you agree).
Possible to replace the words "Insane Asylum" to a degree.

So it could be _library_, _castle_ or _house_.
In the end, it is the same, you are stuck with a louse.

If this is possible, all of us should confirm.
Not our 'roles', etc. but if specific insane flavor is firm.

[Corvuus]

To clarify, what I mean.
Take mod's quote, change the scene.

Here is the Quote:
for what forbiddanlight wrote:

"Welcome to the Insane Asylum. You are a Townie with some unspecified disorder that landed you here. However, you may be crazy, but these mafia fellas are just FREAKY. Alas, your mental...exploration has failed to give you any special powers except the ability to vote, post, and die. Have fun =)"

Aside from 'small' crazy, freaky and mental flavor,
Possible to say, "Welcome to Murder Mystery house, please sign this waiver"
So to some this may be 'some' flavor,
but to others, possible, no? no favor.

On Jul, please take no personal hurt;
but still we must, on you pressure exert.

[Corvuus]

I didn't mean we should mass claim.
Only that Insane Asylum could be replaced with 'library', then no blame.

---

Llama, I am not trying to lynch off flavor but to prevent lynching on flavor.
Scene can be replaced with 'nonspecific' flavor, like house to be blunt.
So do not misunderstand or misrepresent, do me this favor.
As for you, what have you contributed to the scum hunt?

[Corvuus]

Attempts to stop poor reasoned lynches that are either based on flavor or on claims. This is interesting coming from you though when suggesting a flavor claim is all you have contributed, as I have already stated I dont think that a flavor claim would help at all, and more likely hurt.

I didn't say that.
Go back, re-read chat.
Not everything you say is true.
Read again, see my view.

Unvote

Vote Llamafluff

[Corvuus]

I agree with this part of your post. I really don't want to sort through this miller mess, and I think it's in our best interests to leave them alone for the time being. The game does not end when all the millers die unless they're all telling the truth yet we lynch them all anyway (assuming the standard three Mafia in a mini).

As long as "leave them alone" != free ride
then we can temp. set the miller issue aside.

If anything, all miller need to post more!
Can't learn about them if they do not explore.

[Corvuus]

You brought up the flavor claim though

If this is possible, all of us should confirm.
Not our 'roles', etc. but if specific insane flavor is firm.

various people have said "flavor", "no flavor", "some flavor".
I said not mass flavor claim, but if specific flavor is aver.
Then we would be on the same page
and not lynch based on subjective gauge.

Unvote

[Corvuus]

FOS:Corvuus

Crazy idea but maybe to compensate the fact that I am a death miller and apparently there are other two, one scum has that incredible post restriction. Also, didnt like the speed of that vote and unvote in llama.

I voted for Llama
not for drama
but so he would re-read my post!
He read it, and so I raise a toast.

----

If we agreed to 'table' the miller plot,
you using your 'miller status' counts for squat.
None of millers are 100% confirmed to me,
and I think arguing based on that 'fact' is shady; hope you agree.

FoS: populartajo

[Corvuus]

Well what is flavor? I dont see any real way to determine what flavor is without coming close to vanilla/not vanilla claims from people.

Lets say that you and I are both vanilla. You think that the PM has no flavor in it, so you claim flavorless. I think the PM has decent flavor, so I claim flavor. Do you see the comlications that can arise from taking a path like this? Anything that involves any type of claiming can, and likely will, hurt the town, as it gives scum more information.

If we assume that MK and Jules are millers and got an identical miller PM, that is an actual example of what can go wrong. One person consideres it flavored or more flavored then the other, and we start getting distracted and use flavor as a reason to lynch.

Basically given subjective opinions there is no way to safely flavor claim, so its a bad idea that will lead to problems for the town and could easily out a role or two.

I will try to think of a way to explain better.
but it wasn't my intention; miscommunicated letter.

[Corvuus]

Nice FoS there. Wonder what makes me different from Llama and why you voted him and you just FOS me.

I voted for Llama so he would re-read my position.
Being accurate and precise is our mission.

You are willfully abusing miller confusion.
So giving you a FOS is a easy conclusion.

You and the other millers are not cleared yet.
Arguing on your position is a WIFOM bet.

Cov: Can you explain why you vote and unvote every time?

I have only voted seriously twice.
I unvote when meaning is precise.

[Corvuus]

I will try to think of a way to explain better.
but it wasn't my intention; miscommunicated letter.

Anything yet?

Sadly, with Juls' replaced,
my intention is a waste.

After replacement has weighed in
then discussion can begin.

[Corvuus]

I also find Llamafluff to be scummy. Here are the reasons

- 2 random votes

Not scummy. End of discussion.

- his exchange with Juls, what's the difference between a pressure vote and a lynch vote, even?

A lynch vote is a vote made with the genuine belief that its recipient is scum. A pressure vote is not necessarily intended to put its recipient out of his or her misery, but is usually there to get information out of somebody. I've used the latter to try to get people to stop lurking.

I don't know SC very well
but please do not "answer" for others at the drop of a bell.

Llama and the rest are perfectly capable of response.
You posting doesn't help, still nonchalance.

[Corvuus]

the only thing I can think of right now to add is that I find Corvuus rather interesting. I am not sure how I feel about him. I am however against telling others our flavor. I think that would help the scum now more than town.

.........

Apparently impossible to explain,
This flavor thing is apparently my bane.

I didn't say we should say our flavor.
but if flavor is used, have a standard favor.

If all "Insane" could be replaced by Silly.
Then Juls' post of 'no flavor' is possible, really?

So stop saying Corvuus want us to 'mass claim'.
The whole thing, feels rather lame.

[Corvuus]

I don't know SC very well
but please do not "answer" for others at the drop of a bell.
Llama and the rest are perfectly capable of response.
You posting doesn't help, still nonchalance.

I was thinking the term "devil's advocate" when I make my response, but thought that wasn't the correct one. Anyway, I attacked the "two random votes" accusation because it is simply a null tell. I don't like it, but it's not the worst crime in the world and doing it doesn't make it scummier. I made two random votes myself—LlamaFluff and then the mini theme queue. Yes, I really did vote the mini theme queue.

Granted, it was probably a better move for me to let LlamaFluff answer, but since it was a question to which I knew the answer, I thought it was OK for me to respond. Even though I still lean town on him, I'm not trying to defend him.[/quote]

Do you have any comments about the rest of Electra's case?
or did you just ignore the rest and focus on the random place?

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post,
always forever; a toast to our host!

I meant to quote SC my friend!
Lost the quote tag, i make amends.

[Corvuus]

Do you have any comments about the rest of Electra's case?
or did you just ignore the rest and focus on the random place?

I have no comment on Electra right now.

I also find Llamafluff to be scummy. Here are the reasons
- 2 random votes

Not scummy. End of discussion.

I am going to ask you to comment on it.
I expect you to be serious and commit.

You read #179 and immediately post with #180 just to be posting?
Why not comment on her other points instead of just coasting.

--------------------------------

I was thinking the term "devil's advocate" when I make my response, but thought that wasn't the correct one. Anyway, I attacked the "two random votes" accusation because it is simply a null tell. I don't like it, but it's not the worst crime in the world and doing it doesn't make it scummier. I made two random votes myself—LlamaFluff and then the mini theme queue. Yes, I really did vote the mini theme queue.

Granted, it was probably a better move for me to let LlamaFluff answer, but since it was a question to which I knew the answer, I thought it was OK for me to respond. Even though I still lean town on him, I'm not trying to defend him.

There are things wrong with this post and very strange.
Anything you like to adjust or otherwise change?

FoS: SC

[Corvuus]

SC: What is with defending Llama on issues that Electra brought up?

My concern was less about defending LlamaFluff and attacking Electra because I saw her reasoning as flawed.

Why initially such a short and hasty attack?
It seems like a unusual tack.

[Corvuus]

What are your thoughts though? In the early part you speculated about scum claiming miller a bit, and recently you responded (correctly) to SC answering some things before I had a chance to.

If I hadn't responded to SC answering before you,
would you have pointed SC out and said your view?

---------------------------------------------

Why initially such a short and hasty attack?
It seems like a unusual tack.

What do you expect me to do, go all-out on why Electra's case on LlamaFluff sucks? Those were my main points of concern, and all I'm worried about on Electra's part is what I've said so far on her.

SC makes an interesting play.
What do you think about this display?

[Corvuus]

Posting to avoid a prod. Nothing new to contribute.

Is this just your playing style?
Lurking, not stating anything worthwhile?

It seems like you are eager to point out faults.
But in terms of scumhunting, you just kick back and waltz.

You have the scummiest anti-town play style to me.
But is it how you are; or a mafia plea.

So give a definite opinion on something quick!
Otherwise, you are my #1 choice for mafia pick.

[Corvuus]

Cor, so is that you saying you think he is the scummiest here then [sorry for my usual lack of question marks. keyboard still broken]

If I ignore the millers in my mind,
then to ignore SC's anti-townness would mean I'm blind.
He may not be scum, but his "style" sucks.
I'd rather him post a "real post townie deluxe".

However, he is only 2nd in my suspicious mind.
LlamaFluff is my #1 choice for a mafia find.

It is hard for me to put into words and say
but various things bother me this way.

His actions towards me,
ignoring SC to a degree.

It just feels weird in my knee
for them to act in such a key.

[Corvuus]

I didn't say SC was the scummiest player.
Just that his play style etc. is biggest anti-town on any layer.

So i am not using him to get to you, or something like that kind of clue,.
but rather you make interesting choices which bother me on review.

You ignored half my post and do not comment on SC's action.
Instead it seems like you consider it a minor distraction.

So I don't care what SC is, anti-town or scum.
It just seems unusual to me that you would ignore things... or am I dumb.

[Corvuus]

Then who are your top 2 list for being scum?
I don't see who you are trying to get lynched by their thumb.

[Corvuus]

I don't hate this game. It's just frankly one of the most complicated games i've played in so far. It takes a while to get an understanding regarding what's going on.

What are you talking about? I understand that there have been 3 millers claims but the game is pretty normal for scumhunting barring this FL crazy thing.
.................
I was thinking in something. Since we have like 3 claimed millers here would it be good that all players claim if they are millers or not?

Tajo, you claimed death miller didn't you?
Why does your post sound like this isn't true?

Why don't you answer your own question?
Do YOU think it is a good idea if we have a "miller" confession.

[Corvuus]

I am not a miller.
I also think all millers had already claimed in this thriller.

[Corvuus]

I am not a miller.
I also think all millers had already claimed in this thriller.

Does this mean you believe Juls/SG? What about Crazy did it seem he hinted at have a miller role?

2 claims means someone is likely lying.

3 (or 4, *cough*) claims means mod's a bastard.

It's most likely that none of them are lying. If any one of them is, it's Juls.

See, Mana_Ku wouldn't claim at that point as scum in any universe. If two town players just counter-claimed each other, and you're scum, think, do you have any desire to counterclaim them? When the attention is completely off of you?

I have some reason for trusting Tajo here, but trust me in that it's best I don't explain further yet.

Unvote, Vote Electra

Electra, as you said in #76, why do you believe MK's counter-claim is likely to be a scum gambit?

When asked he has yet to state anything in regards to this post.

---------------------------

I don't fully 100% believe any of the miller claims.
Tajo claimed miller first, but he could just be playing games.

Jul(SG) and MK claimed next, in that order.
Could be real, could just be creating disorder.

----

I have no reason to believe any of them over another.
I don't think Crazy has posted enough or claimed other.

...To me, any new miller claims now would be weird.
Why wait until now? Why not earlier when little was feared?

As for Crazy trusting Tajo; I don't speculate nor care.
Let them work it out; Eventually all things laid bare.

[Corvuus]

I want the other miller to confirm this.

Tajo! Why do all of your posts seem like you are not a miller?
Why not confirm what the death miller looks like in this thriller?

Or are you waiting for what the other miller says in this?
In order to better craft your response so you don't run amiss.

I would ask that you post first what yours is before the other miller.
Your post stinks on so many levels that I think you are a killer.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus stop saying that I am not a miller because of all the millers I am the most confirmed one.
I am trying something here. Ill tell you when Mana and prob Crazy come up with the answer.

Nice BS answer.
I don't care for your dancer.

Vote Populartajo

First of all, I didn't say you weren't a miller.
I said that your posts don't seem like 1, unless your a 3rd person thriller.

As for you trying something? I laugh and call your bluff.
Llama initiated; not you. You saying later is nonsense and I had enough.

I don't consider ANY miller cleared at all.
Death miller or not, I will keep up my call.

[Corvuus]

I read it.
I won't quit.

------

What is the difference?

Your posts betray you. It isn't me saying "miller, you are not".
It is your posts ignoring your miller-ness that is caught.

Thx for let me trying it.

You *will* post first.
How could you posting first make it worst?

I don't consider ANY miller cleared at all.

Nice moment to jump against me when I have been miller all the game.

FOS: Corvus.

I don't see how you 'been miller all the game' is relevant or a defense.
Try another answer or we can make this intense.

[Corvuus]

Your posts betray you. It isn't me saying "miller, you are not".
It is your posts ignoring your miller-ness that is caught.

When did I ignore I was a miller? I have been saying all the game I am a miller. You were suggesting twice that I didnt seem a milller. Well, tell me Shakespeare, how is that not telling that you dont think I am a miller.

Fine. Go ahead with your 'plan'.
I'm skeptical and have many questions if your plan doesn't pan.

----

As for you ignoring being a miller, a PBPA of all your posts show this.
You say "3 millers", "the millers", etc. is weird as a miller to exists.

[Corvuus]

So what I am trying now is to fully confirm their miller status.

Mana_ku responded, so how did your big plan go?
Or are you still waiting for crazy to say hello?

[Corvuus]

So what I am trying now is to fully confirm their miller status.

Mana_ku responded, so how did your big plan go?
Or are you still waiting for Crazy to say hello?

[Corvuus]

do we have a prod on crazy?
waiting on him is making us lazy.

[Corvuus]

I'm waiting for your explanation for your plan.
So, Crazy should respond, discuss and that is how it all began.

Until then, I am content with waiting on other issues.
I doubt it will come down to deadline; don't need any tissues.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus stop saying that I am not a miller because of all the millers I am the most confirmed one.
I am trying something here. Ill tell you when Mana and prob Crazy come up with the answer.

I want Mana and Crazy (if he claims miller) to answer to my post before I say anything.
Coorvus, how do you think plans work?
You dont tell the people who need to answer something what they are supposed to answer.
Shadowgirl trust me in this one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crazy has said that he isn't a miller.
So what is your plan in this thriller?

[Corvuus]

Mirth, I am usually good with my early reads. I don't think my suspicions of Stef are exaggerated. They are based in the probability of scum or town doing that. Im going with the former.
Coorvus, the conclusion is that all the players that have claimed to be millers are indeed millers. All miller PMs (mine included) don't mention trackers, only cops.
I wanted to verify that Mana and Crazy had the same PM. If they negated that they didnt have the cop part it was very obvious that someone was lying because we, Shadowgirl and me, both have the cop part and I believe her claim the most of all the actual and possible ones.
Now leave me alone and comment on Sly's case and such. Okthxbay. I dont like how you came back only to post that.

That is bs. You fail; hurry up and die.
Your entire logical premise is crap high.

You didn't in anyway verify anything at all
and that you claim you did it to get an answer is a laughable call.

What did it have to do with negating the cop part? Wasn't it for tracker?
What could Mana have answered that would make sense, no idiot backer.

I see no reason to believe your claim if you talk crap like that.
and you are treating your DM as a normal miller rat
and stating conclusions that 'all are miller'; I say BS to your chat.
BS to your 'big plan' and ignoring your 'death' part flat.

[Corvuus]

Edit by way of post:
As always and forever, a toast to our host.

Slysly wants to lynch you based on 'policy' as a death miller claim.
I want to lynch you based on your scumminess in what you proclaim.

You aren't confirmed or verified death miller in any way.
How you use it and throw it around is a horrible play.

[Corvuus]

I am here and I have been reading everything said and done.
It is difficult to say much without spending several minutes on rhyming fun.

Slysly replacing in was interesting and amusing to me in terms of meta.
But I was/am still waiting for response from Tajo on his actions; wait with a margarita!

[Corvuus]

meta and margarita do not rhyme.

mod; whats the word on mana

Mirth, I use a place filled with Rhyme, a wonderful zone.
"http://www.rhymezone.com", check it out before you pick a bone.

[Corvuus]

Have to read and catch up.
It would be nice for tajo to respond, yup.

[Corvuus]

I still want tajo to explain his plan.
I will explain what else I think, if I can.

For Slysly's case, it all boils down to a policy lynch based on death miller.
I personally view any DM's actions with suspicion but not as an automatic killer.

The fact that he brings up the case doesn't make me think he is scum.
But him holding on to it regardless is an interesting meta tell for me to derive from.

Mainly, some people would back down from a 'unpopular' plan
instead he sticks with it, which shows to me he is a different kind of man.

I see no reason to say he is scum or worth a vote.
Instead, everyone's response (or lack thereof) is interesting to note.

[Corvuus]

"Lack thereof", Corvuus? Have I not been one of the main pushers against SlySly, or am I misinterpreting you?

I was not directly referring to you at all in my post.
Just not all positions on SlySly were clear to me, for his roast.

Debatable it may be, but if Sly or tajo as the lynch of the day.
I would choose tajo as the lynch, all the way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already explained it but I think Mirth is right in the fact that I cant fully confirm anyone just because they have only cops-reference in their PMs. I So in few words, my plan didnt work as I wanted everyone to realize. It only gave me a new view on people claiming to be millers. Both Shadowgirl and Mana_Ku are kinda sure about their claims and Im willing to believe they are both millers until its necessary.
Add that to the fact that Id consider unbelievably retarded to counterclaim a miller if you are not one.

First of all, you are telling me that you didn't *know* that it would fail?
Whether you said anything or not, would it have changed a detail?

SG and Corporate have been 'consistent' in their claim.
When I read all of your posts tajo, I can't say you have been the same.

How could you, a death miller, with a 'different' PM have verified them?
Why wouldn't you answer first;ask "the other miller", afraid to condemn?

The tracker clarification wasn't suggested by you, nor help you at all.
I asked you to verify as a miller yourself, your responded with scrawl.

To me, you are not consistent in your miller/death miller claim.
It is based on that, that I consider your name.

--------------------------------

Also, I dont think Sly is misguided townie. If he were misguided townie, he wouldnt have reread the thread to make a weak case against me after days of pushing his silly policy lynch case. Thats just scum pushing harder and avoiding backtracking to look even worse.

If the only case we have on Slysly is his policy lynch of you.
That is sad. It boils down to a 'reverse policy' lynch anew.

I see no reason why he couldn't be misguided town.
(I am not saying he has no chance of being a psycho clown),
but your accusations are just a mirror for yourself.
You are pushing harder, you are backtracking; 'like sly himself'.

....

Your actions to me are fairly bad.
Hiding behind miller claim is also sad.
Out of all the miller claims, you I doubt the most.
Yet you said you are the most confirmed as a strange boast.
And then you 'confirm' all millers, as if it were a reflection on you.
It doesn't confirm you at all, yet you struggle for it too.

....

Liar! Liar! I see no reason to believe you!
Pants! Pants! You claimed Death Miller in your 2nd debut.
Burn! Burn! You act as a miller and ignore the death miller.
Fire! Fire! You act strange; push and backtrack! I say you are killer.

What do you have to say to that????
I would prefer something reasonable and not just a 'newbie mistake' flat.

[Corvuus]

All quotes from Coorvus

How could you, a death miller, with a 'different' PM have verified them?

I am a death miller but after all, a miller. My PM, as I praphrased some time ago, is obv worded differently than the normal miller PM but it explicitely mentioned "cops" as Shadowgirl said rather than other words as "investigation" and such.

Why wouldn't you answer first;ask "the other miller", afraid to condemn?

Because I wanted to see Mana's reaction since I believe Juls/Shadowgirl to be honest.

You answer nothing. How did you think your plan would work?
What information were you 'feasibly' hoping to gain from such a quirk?
Mana's post and reaction had essentially zero to do with you.
And your post on clearing them afterwards is a strange view.

The tracker clarification wasn't suggested by you, nor help you at all.

Yes, I know.

To me, you are not consistent in your miller/death miller claim.
It is based on that, that I consider your name.

So you bash me for hidding behind my claim (which isnt true) but you also blame me for not being consistent with my claim? Do I always lose? What should I do? Pretend I am not a death miller when I AM A DEATH MILLER?

You lose because of your actions and your posts.
You did use your claim; you did try to clear the millers the most.
If you are a death miller; Act like you said you would when you claim?
Why all these posts, italics I add, strike me as lame.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay Im going with farside here. Lets start scumhunting and

be careful when facing the claimed people.

Mirth, I still dont get why did you ask Juls to claim in her first post. What did you want to accomplish with that?

Crazy idea but maybe to compensate the fact that I am a

death miller

and apparently there are other two, one scum has that incredible post restriction. Also, didnt like the speed of that vote and unvote in llama.

different from what exactly tajo

From your previous game with me. Dont know what yet. Yes, something called gut and the fact that I still dont like how you implied that Juls had to claim miller in her first post when she probably wasnt aware of the optimal miller play.

If we agreed to 'table' the miller plot,
you using your 'miller status' counts for squat.
None of millers are 100% confirmed to me,
and I think arguing based on that 'fact' is shady; hope you agree.
FoS: populartajo

I would be very surprised if

any of the millers are lying

. Claiming miller puts you in a difficult situation since you're bringing unnecessary attention when you havent done anything scummy. Scum wouldnt probably

counterclaim miller

until necessary and D1 isnt precisely the best time to do it.
..............
Nice FoS there. Wonder what makes me different from Llama and why you voted him and you just FOS me.

I haven't contributed yet because i don't consider i had anything to comment on.. Call it scummy or whatnot. However when i do post and ask a question to start a discussion in a pretty good direction ( isn't it in your opinion? ) you attack me? Why? It wasn't a vote-worthy reason.

LOLWTF?
This must be like the tenth time you are facing

three claimed millers

, right?

I don't hate this game. It's just frankly one of the most complicated games i've played in so far. It takes a while to get an understanding regarding what's going on.

What are you talking about? I understand that there have been

3 millers claims

but the game is pretty normal for scumhunting barring this FL crazy thing.
.................
I was thinking in something. Since we have like

3 claimed millers

here would it be good that all players claim if they are millers or not?

Corvuus stop saying that I am

not a miller

because of all the millers I am the

most confirmed one

.
I am trying something here. Ill tell you when Mana and prob Crazy come up with the answer.

First of all, I didn't say you weren't a miller.

Tajo! Why do all of your posts seem like you are

not a miller

?

What is the difference?

As for you trying something? I laugh and call your bluff.

Thx for let me trying it.
Llama initiated; not you. You saying later is nonsense and I had enough.
What are you talking about?

I don't consider ANY miller cleared at all.

Nice moment to jump against me when I have

been miller all the game

.

FOS: Corvus.

I want Mana and Crazy (if he claims miller) to answer to my post before I say anything.
Coorvus, how do you think plans work?

You dont tell the people who need to answer something what they are supposed to answer.

Shadowgirl trust me in this one.

I think that the

existence of massive millers proves that I am a miller

.
And of all the actual and possible posterior miller claims, Juls/Shadowgirl's is the one I most believe.

Mirth, I am usually good with my early reads. I don't think my suspicions of Stef are exaggerated. They are based in the probability of scum or town doing that. Im going with the former.
Coorvus,

the conclusion is that all the players that have claimed to be millers are indeed millers. All miller PMs (mine included) don't mention trackers, only cops.

I wanted to verify that Mana and Crazy had the same PM. If they negated that they didnt have the cop part it was very obvious that someone was lying because we, Shadowgirl and me, both have the cop part and I believe her claim the most of all the actual and possible ones.
Now leave me alone and comment on Sly's case and such. Okthxbay. I dont like how you came back only to post that.

I already explained it but I think Mirth is right in the fact that

I cant fully confirm anyone just because they have only cops-reference in their PMs. I So in few words, my plan didnt work as I wanted everyone to realize.

It only gave me a new view on people claiming to be millers. Both Shadowgirl and Mana_Ku are kinda sure about their claims and Im willing to believe they are both millers until its necessary.
Add that to the fact that Id consider unbelievably retarded to counterclaim a miller if you are not one.

-------------------------------------------------------

Can we just lynch Sly?

If the only case we have on Slysly is his policy lynch of you.
That is sad. It boils down to a 'reverse policy' lynch anew.

Not true. This is my case.

My case is that you replaced a lurker with zero contribution to the game and that said this game was difficult (WTF?) and asked replacement for this. A person saying that this game is difficult is either retarded or is lying. And Stef isnt retarded. I strongly believe this is a lie and I catched him lurking deliberately. He picked the easy way and got replaced.
I strongly dislike that you admit that you havent reread the game. This shows that you only picked SOME PARTS TO READ. (scum doesnt reread searching for scummy things, they only look for shit to mislynch someone) and that you are basing your lynch target in the fact that "I will come up scum" rather than scummy behaviour.
I dont know how more obvious this has to be.

I also dont like his case.

1. Wishy-wash soft miller claim then later elaborates into a solid death miller claim.
2. Very defensive, look at the back and forth between him and Mirth.
3. He is dogging me out for voting for him, with a stated obvious reason, but without pointing out scumminess on him while he is pushing hard for people to vote for me while he has stated NO case for his vote on me

.

About your case against me.
1. I claimed miller and then death miller for a reason. Check 37.
2. Being defensive is not a scumtell. Nobody wants to be lynched and I get defensive all the time when I have the possibilities of being lynched D1. And I am far from being very defensive.
3. What are you talking about me not having a case for you? I do have a case against you, many people have seen it. You didnt have a case against me until this post. Why did it take you that long? Oh I know why, you are looking for shitty things that could incriminate me rather than accepting that you either did a shit job while rereading or you are blatant scum. Nice job!

You are pushing harder, you are backtracking; 'like sly himself'.

When the hell did I backtrack?

In regards to your plan on the tracker scheme
and in your '100%' clearing other millers theme.

Your initial push on Stef/Sly is pushing hard and strong.
If he didn't have policy lynch on you, would hunting Stef/Sly be wrong?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And then you 'confirm' all millers, as if it were a reflection on you.
It doesn't confirm you at all, yet you struggle for it too.

You cant get 100% confirmaiton until death but I sincerely think Juls and Mana arent lying about his claims. Reasons explained before. But, if you dont think I am a death miller then YOU SHOULD ALSO BE SUSPECTING THEM becuase you also dont belive your claims, right? Or they are confirmed millers to you?[/quote]

I take their miller-ness as a null-tell for now.
Whether they are millers or not has NOTHING to do with you, wow.

At the VERY LEAST, they have not tried to use their miller claim.
They claimed, discussed, and I believe them more than you all the same.

...

Sorry for the wall of text.
I'm interested in what is said next.

[Corvuus]

eh, i guess people think I am 'insane' and reading too much into miller talk.
The obvious lame answer; Treat DM and Miller words as the same walk.

I disbelieve that since when I asked him about DM part with miller word
he didn't get that I meant DM and it should be obvious what then occurred.

If Slysly hasn't claimed now, I doubt he will to any siren call.
I would prefer people to vote tajo now to get 'near' a tie to force both to talk or fall.

[Corvuus]

unvote. vote "extend deadline"

my vote isn't doing any good or causing any major headline
so I am going to vote for a week extension to deadline.

For everyone arguing that they want 'information' out of a day 1 lynch
Other than Sly's role & alignment, I don't see what we gain from this pinch.

I am not saying "no lynch" or that we can't lynch Sly.
I would just prefer we had more time to learn and try.

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post.
always forever a toast to our host.

5) Days have a deadline of 3 weeks. A deadline extension of one week may be granted by getting a majority vote to extend.

[Corvuus]

I am usually a sucker for dayline extensions but I dont know what else we can learn if the next possible source of information is Sly's claim which he strangely refuses to give.
What was the motivation for that, Coorvus? Do you sincerely think Sly isnt mafia?

Do you sincerely think Sly is 100% mafia scum?
I'm not convinced that this isn't a 'reverse policy lynch' of sly bum.

You are mirrors of each other, and I don't see the information gained.
You were first to 'miller' claim, would scum do that as you explained?
Sly is first to pursue an unpopular policy lynch of your death miller.
Would scum do this relentlessly?Same type of mindgame in this thriller.

So, yes it is anti-town for Sly to refuse information at this point.
I just don't see what we would talk about in day 2, except be disappoint.

Right now, I have no idea on a few players and we are just coasting.
A successful sly lynch due to deadline is nothing we should be boasting.

[Corvuus]

I just don't see what we would talk about in day 2, except be disappoint.

Wait a sec, how do you know Sly's lynch will be a disappoint?

ExtremeFOS: Coorvus.

Wow, you are a funny scummy guy.
How do you know it won't be a disappointment to lynch sly?
What info do you gain and what will we discuss?
Whether he is scum or town, what is the day 2 big plus?

It would 'almost' be like starting the game over again.
Only info is miller talk and potentially Sly's role made plain.

It isn't real scumhunting and I think his lynch is just lazy.
So go ahead. 'read' into 'disappoint' all you want and be crazy.
You ignoring my point on your lame interchanging of miller word
is far worse than anything I have said or occurred.

....................

In the end, I say beginning of day 2 will disappoint.
Because if sly is scum, who buddy? who speak? what point?
If he is town, then what did we learn or gain?
No major tell from his lynch since it is lazy; thus I complain.

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:
always and forever a toast to our host.

Let me put it this way and make it clear.
If you think he is scum, then vote for him and do not fear.

If you are not convinced he is scum but just waiting for deadline to arrive,
then I would rather you vote to extend and let the day continue to thrive.

I think there is still information to be gained, but due to turkey or real life
we are just coasting along; at least say our top 2 scum, etc. in this strife?

[Corvuus]

The Fifteenth "Voyeurism" Vote Count

"Voyeurism is the sexual interest in spying on people engaged in intimate behaviors, such as undressing, sexual activity, or urinating. It is classified as a paraphilia in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association and a disorder of sexual preference in the ICD-10. The diagnosis would not be given to people who experience typical sexual arousal simply by seeing nudity or sexual activity; the aspect of spying is central to paraphilic voyeurism.The word derives from French verb voir (to see) with the -eur suffix that translates as -er in English. A literal translation would then be “seer” or "observer", with pejorative connotations."

Mod Note: farside's LA is noted, Mirth's V/LA is noted

Also, unvotes are generally required to cast another vote.

SlySly (5): populartajo, farside, StrangerCoug, corporate, Pentadragon

Slysly is at L-2

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is at 11 PM EST, Wednesday, November 26rd

tajo, farside, corporate, penta; any thing you wish to say?
I think all of you posted today so you obviously are around to play.

[Corvuus]

EBWOP
And Coorvus if for some little tiny reason, Sly comes up town, I definitely know who I am going to hunt.

really? care to share with the rest of us?
I think everyone should vote to extend deadline just to hear you discuss.

[Corvuus]

Why would Coorvus be dissapointed tomorrow if we lynch Sly? Any ideas?

Now that I answered why, I want to know what you think of my answer.
I think it is fair that you answer instead of being an ignoring dancer.

[Corvuus]

I'm be in favour of deadline extension for, I suppose.

Could you make that official with bold?
I don't know if Forbiddan will see or accept it unless boldly told.

[Corvuus]

Im fine with a deadline extension IF AN ONLY IF Sly claims.
And Coorvus, you know I am talking about you, right?
About your answer, meh, it partially depends of Sly allignment but I really dont like the way you play this game. Its incredible and worrying that you think that the only information this game has are the miller claims and this Tajo-Sly dichotomy.

Really? I think there is more than that; Proof: I think about you;
Your latest discrepancy is a hilarious thing for all of us to chew.

EBWOP
And Coorvus if for some little tiny reason, Sly comes up town, I definitely know who I am going to hunt.

If your reason for going after me is because you don't like my play.
Then how does Slysly coming up town affect it in ANY way?

If he comes up scum, how will that affect your concern?
But no, you specifically state town, so state why. I want to learn.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can interpret my "only" info statement all you want.
In the end, I stand by it. You can interpret it as me being flaunt.

Some tried to 'get away' from the dichotomy of Tajo and sly.
wanted to gain info, do something else, but it didn't fly.
Now they will have to say it ALL over again in the second day.
To me, the dichotomy and miller issue clouded the rest all the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So my hilarious comment to you; please speak up, I hope you do.
Is my comments the #1 scummy thing you see in town too?

If I hadn't said anything at all, would you even have a clue?
What info do you have from town in day 1, share your view?

[Corvuus]

I don't understand you at all Sly.
Certainly anti-town but do you do it just so you could defy?

On a sidenote, what happens if the votecount is tied between extend and lynch sly?
Does Sly make a haiku that owns and automatically defeats extend with a 'by'?

[Corvuus]

Corvuus is back and will answer all questions posted to him.

I finished my reread during the night, guys. I'm all caught up now.

I do see that Corvuus' "disappointment" thing could be a scum-slip. And to be honest, I don't buy his explanation at all. I mean, I've never been disappointed when a scum was lynched...

One other thing I noticed early game... did anyone else catch this?

Mirth, my friend:
I have no PR; just pretend.

Fairly Crazy, Fairly Sane,
....Rhyming hurts my brain.

Explain the first stanza, please.

Corvuus thinks your logic here is amusing. If Slysly was scum, then of course you are not disappointed. Slysly was not scum and Corvuus was not convinced so he didn't vote or desire to lynch Slysly for weak reasons.

Corvuus thinks you should explain why it is a scum slip, then just repeat it over and over again.

Corvuus has no PR and the quoted post is fine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

coorvus, still speech restricted?

Corvuus says no.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tajo how did I get ignored from your review of each player? I'm not invisible.
Right now just based on what I remember I didn't not like Coorvus comment at the end of the day about being dispointed in the Sly lynch. Seems like a scum slip to me.

FOS: Coorvus

I will have my own notes and comments by the end of the day.

Corvuus would like those who say it is a scum slip to say why they think it is a scum slip.

Corvuus considers the comment and the deadline vote more of a null tell than anything else, so explain why it is scummy to you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Corvuus thinks tajo is very hilarious and extremely scummy.

Corvuus states that anyone that comes and post "Look at the deadline extension vote, etc." is blatant scum. Tajo did this is horribly scummy.

Corvuus points out that his logic is weak and stupid.

Another NK Llama can add to his record.
Sly was lynched because he deserved it. Anyone that comes and post "FOS everyone in the Sly wagon" is blatant scum. Sly was the obv lynch for the day and it still bugs me why some people wanted a deadline extension when Sly was being ext scummy/antitown.

Corvuus states that sly was not the obvious and must lynch for the day but that Slysly simply refused to defend himself or claim which is extremely anti-town. Slysly being horribly anti-town is certain, but Corvuus saw this more as being death-wish townie than scummy per se and wanted to hear more discussion, etc. from it. Corvuus saw it as a mislynch and Corvuus spoke out.

............................
Lets analyse the supporters.

SPECIAL
Deadline Extension: Corvuus, StrangerCoug, SlySly, Shadowgirl, Mirth
No Extension: corporate

Coug thought it was necessary for holiday business so /out. Shadowgirl, I believe her to be miller, so /out. Sly is dead. /out.
That leaves Mirth and Coorvus. Interesting. Both were my top suspects after Sly.
You want to know why? Because there were two possibilities in Sly's case.
a) Sly is scum for scummy behaviour. Mirth and Coorvus are trying to save his ass indirectly.
b) Sly is town but he had scummy behaviour. Mirth and Coorvus are trying to appear townie staying off the wagon and asking DE.

Corvuus thinks your scenarios a and b are amusing strawmen setups.

Corvuus would like to point out an alternative with his favorite letter C, such as C) Sly is town but is extremely ANTITOWN in behavior. Corvuus was trying to prevent a mislynch and have more discussion and thus Corvuus stayed off the wagon and asked for deadline extension. Corvuus thinks asking for DE is a null-tell and that Tajo stating that Corvuus did it in order to appear town is extremely scummy for him. Corvuus never claimed that or expected it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ITS STRANGE that both of them didnt want to vote Sly at deadline although it was obvious that he was acting scummy/antitown and that he DESERVED to be lynched. This is what seemed strange regarding Mirth. She voted fir him before for weak logic but WHY DIDNT SHE VOTE FOR HIM near deadline and insted asked for a deadline extension? It doesnt make sense to me.
The same can be said about Coorvus. I cant understand why he didnt think Sly was a case that deserved at least some extrarhyming. Why staying out of the wagon that had more probs of finding scum?
So, they both deserve a

FOS : Coorvus

and a

Vote:Mirth

for staying out of an ext decent wagon and instead asking for a lame deadline extension. Add my previous suspicions I had from both, (Coorvus' weak attacks and his slip and Mirth's strange lack of agresiveness regarding Sly) and I think we have a decent D2 start. And Im voting Mirth because I know her and I still think she was being deliberately weak with Sly for some reason I still dont get.
................
Sitll thinking that Corpo and Shadowgirl, claimed millers, are indeed millers. Their plays are extremely bad for scum and I have protown reads from them.
Will reread Penta (thx SC for the first batch) but I still have in mind the newbie town read I had from him from a previous reread.
Electra and Crazy are a different subject. Although not posting much, I have a neutral slightly protown read from them.

Corvuus thinks it is "STRANGE" that you treat anti-townness as being extremely scummy. Slysly could have claimed or defended himself for days but chose not to. Slysly not doing so is what got him killed; not him doing anything obscenely scummy. Corvuus thinks your inability to understand is due to bad logic or scummy intent.

Corvuus also thinks it amusing that you say you have a 'decent' D2 start and base it completely on what Mirth and Corvuus said on the very last moment prior to the lynch. Corvuus voting for slysly to lynch Sly instead of asking for DE would have been 'ok' with you (as you state above that you can't "see" *why* Corvuus wouldn't do so) and then Sly would be lynched townie and day would start with... what?

Corvuus thinks your entire logic and premise is full of holes since Tajo top 2 suspicions are based ENTIRELY on comments said on DE and that if there was no DE discussion at all, Tajo would have little to go on.


Corvuus thinks tajo is obvious scum for reaching and making such horribly scummy comments. Corvuus would also like Tajo to say and clearly define what he says is weak attacks and slip instead of just "saying that they exist".

Corvuus will

Vote Tajo

[Corvuus]

Corvuus would like to point out the following amusing posts as well since people don't seem to be reading them that closely.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we just lynch Sly?

Thats weird, Mirth. I would totally expect you to be all over him right now. More pressure on him, dont you think? I obv dont want a lynch right now.
Could you explain clearly the differences between your vote and his?

Sly, it would be extremely retarded to claim death miller if I were scum. It would be a silly gambit because sooner or later you will be suspected. It gathers unnecessary attention since the beginning of D1.
I never said I went to the wiki, check your facts. I checked some games and the strategy in some threads after I got my death miller role PM. What makes more sense to you? A death miller figuring out what he should make of his PM or a silly scum checking strategy for a miller to make a scumgambit that has the potential of getting him lynched?
..................
I dont see the necessity to withhold information. I want those comments and your other suspects in your following post.
.............
About your case against me.
-I claimed miller and then death miller for a reason. Check 37.
-Being defensive is not a scumtell. Nobody wants to be lynched and I get defensive all the time when I have the possibilities of being lynched D1. And I am far from being very defensive.
-What are you talking about me not having a case for you? I do have a case against you, many people have seen it. You didnt have a case against me until this post. Why did it take you that long? Oh I know why, you are looking for shitty things that could incriminate me rather than accepting that you either did a shit job while rereading or you are blatant scum. Nice job!
..............
My case is that you replaced a lurker with zero contribution to the game and that said this game was difficult (WTF?) and asked replacement for this. A person saying that this game is difficult is either retarded or is lying. And Stef isnt retarded. I strongly believe this is a lie and I catched him lurking deliberately. He picked the easy way and got replaced.
I strongly dislike that you admit that you havent reread the game. This shows that you only picked SOME PARTS TO READ. (scum doesnt reread searching for scummy things, they only look for shit to mislynch someone) and that you are basing your lynch target in the fact that "I will come up scum" rather than scummy behaviour.
I dont know how more obvious this has to be.

Also, I dont think Sly is misguided townie. If he were misguided townie, he wouldnt have reread the thread to make a weak case against me after days of pushing his silly policy lynch case. Thats just scum pushing harder and avoiding backtracking to look even worse.

I am usually a sucker for dayline extensions but I dont know what else we can learn if the next possible source of information is Sly's claim which he strangely refuses to give.
What was the motivation for that, Coorvus? Do you sincerely think Sly isnt mafia?

Corvuus would be interested in what people have to say about Tajo's case, his pushing, his scummy statements and such.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Corvuus would like those who say it is a scum slip to say why they think it is a scum slip.

Corvuus considers the comment and the deadline vote more of a null tell than anything else, so explain why it is scummy to you.

Only scum know who is town and who is scum. Saying people would be disappointed implies knoweledge that Sly would flip town.

Corvuus agrees but points out that his statement is true REGARDLESS of slysly's alignment. If Corvuus had voted and lynched Slysly immediately without any comment then sly would be dead and turned up either town or scum. Corvuus believes that in EITHER case, we wouldn't have as much information as we could have if we had done deadline extension and heard more from Sly and others.

Corvuus views his statement as not showing 'knowledge' of certainty of alignment but knowledge of certainty that Sly's alignment didn't matter at all at that point. Town was going to lynch a anti-town player (scum or town) but in case of scum, we wouldn't know buddying, etc. and in case of town; what did we gain from the lynch other than knowing he is VT and was an extremely anti-town player that we don't have to listen to anymore?

Corvuus doesn't view deadline extension as lame/scummy at all since the reasons for lynching slysly were weak and we could have gained more information and if slysly was still the most anti-town, then town lynch Sly later.

Corvuus thinks that if we are going to take arguments of 'certainty' of knowledge, then read the posts by Tajo when Tajo views Sly as 'certain' scum and pushes for his lynch and attempts to 'block' every 'misguided townie' possibility.

[Corvuus]

Coorvus, Im not going to turn this thread into an antitown-scummy debate.

I thought Sly was scummy not only antitown. Read my case against him. I didnt vote him because he was only being antitown, he was being scummy.
Refusing to claim is a big scumtell. Going back to create a case against someone you attacked for a weak reason (policy lynch) is another big scumtell.

Corvuus understands but what tajo thinks is scummy is not necessarily what Corvuus or others think is scummy. Tajo says voted for him based on scumminess and Corvuus point of view is that it isn't necessarily a scumtell and Corvuus didn't view it that way.

Corvuus states that Corvuus considers meta, style and other factors in what Corvuus determines to be scummy or anti-town. Corvuus does not have a radar but reads between lines and intent.

Corvuus will state his position so that it may be more clear to Tajo and others. Sly replaces in and immediately pursues a policy lynch on Tajo. Corvuus does not agree with policy lynch but Sly believes it, and pursues it, even unto death. Corvuus considers whether scum or town would do this, possible benefits, etc. etc.

Corvuus will use Tajo's words to show how this is fairly hypocritical. Tajo states that "claiming death miller as a gambit is silly since it draws unwanted attention from day 1". Slysly pursuing a policy lynch of Tajo as a gambit is similarly silly because it draws unwanted attention immediately. Corvuus concludes it isn't a gambit but it is just how Slysly is, and that Slysly is either scum trying to kill with a weak policy lynch, or town believing that policy lynch of Death Miller is the way to go.

Corvuus views Slysly's posts as a whole and concludes that the information isn't conclusive to say he is 'obvious scum' but leaning towards townie who just wants to play sly's way and doesn't care what others think or do about it. Corvuus thinks Sly could be either scum or town AND that more discussion could reveal it and more information.

Corvuus disagrees with anyone who says Sly was "obvious scum" and would like them to point out exactly why. Refusing to claim and going back to create a case is not 100% certain scum tell and Corvuus rejects that.

What worries me is that I have no idea how Coorvus can be so sure that Sly was's acting antitown and not scummy. He was proposing a DE to discuss it but what discussion did he propose? He was only saying we need DE to keep discussing but what exactly discussion he brought to the table other than his illogic attacks against me and avoidance of the Sly case?
The thing is that if he thought that attacking Sly for being scummy is ilogical in his book because he has a super antitown radar in his head, then why only going against me? Or this is OMGUS? There were another votes in him, right?

Corvuus thinks your personal statements are amusing. Corvuus asked Tajo how he can be sure that sly was scum and Tajo never answered. Corvuus asks again and wants to know why Sly was 'certainly' scummy and not merely anti-town. Corvuus was open to the possibilities and to discussion, Tajo was not.

Corvuus thinks your strawman case on the DE is amusing and exceedingly weak. Corvuus was trying to bring up discussion, Llama was trying to bring up discussion on Penta, etc. but avoidance/ignored due to pursuing case on Slysly. Tajo suggesting that Corvuus had nothing to discuss is scummy.

Corvuus will point out that Tajo and the others voting for Sly are different from each other. Implicit in the wording of others, was the possibility and 'doubt' of Slysly being town or scum. Tajo states many times that Tajo views Sly as scum and not misguided townie and Tajo pushes for the lynch *MUCH MORE* than anyone else voting for Sly. In addition, there is the horribly scummy statement where Tajo says "in case Sly does turn up town, #1 is Corv". If Tajo is so sure that Sly is scum and no further discussion is needed, then what is what this "SLIP". If Tajo is un-sure then why not discuss more? Instead, Corvuus views it as intentionally attempting to setup next day lynch and bring up weak attacks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the most important thing is how the hell can he be so sure who acts antitown and who acts scummy?
How I am acting scummy and how Sly was acting antitown? Where is the line?

Mirth is another different case. She felt strange swithching strangely to Corpo for weak reasons. I have not many problems with this because its the way she plays but the problem with her is that she was acting deliberately weak with Sly and I want her to explain this..

Im not basing my case entirely in DE discussion. It is an important part, yes, but its not ENTIRELY as you are trying to state. Plz try reading better my posts and be less scummy..

Corvuus IS NOT sure who is anti-town and who is scummy until enough info is collected. Discussion allows that determination to be made. The line is made in balance. Each person is different in how they view or accept things, for Corvuus, it is actions weighed against each other. Corvuus gives example as on the one side is Slysly's anti-town actions and on the other is Slysly's extremely unpopular policy lynch of Tajo. Corvuus considers pursuing a policy lynch to not be scummy per se and in the case of Tajo, appear to be more townie. Sly scum would have less probability of choosing his actions/responses and pursuing policy lynch than a Sly town scenario, so Corvuus choose to discuss more to be 'certain'.

Corvuus thinks Tajo should read posts better and be less scummy as well.

[Corvuus]

Coorvus I hate walls of text. I dont want to turn this into a Coorvus-Tajo thing. We can go in circles like forever and we are only hurting the town if you arent scum. Ill let you state in two lines why do you think Im scum.
I agree that there are different points of view but theres something I think you should know, though.

Corvuus will use Tajo's words to show how this is fairly hypocritical. Tajo states that "claiming death miller as a gambit is silly since it draws unwanted attention from day 1". Slysly pursuing a policy lynch of Tajo as a gambit is similarly silly because it draws unwanted attention immediately. Corvuus concludes it isn't a gambit but it is just how Slysly is, and that Slysly is either scum trying to kill with a weak policy lynch, or town believing that policy lynch of Death Miller is the way to go.

Different situations. Tajo death miller and other millers claiming millers is a bad play for scum. Period.
Slysly pursuing over and over a policy lynch is either stupidly antitown or blatant scum scared of backtracking.
See the diference?

Corvuus disagrees with Tajo logic and the representation of situations Tajo presents. Tajo death miller and other millers claiming miller is not a 100% bad play for scum but Corvuus will smile and let you claim this to be correct.

Corvuus will then state that Slysly pursuing a policy lynch of death miller is a 100% bad play for scum, just like you claim that scum fake claiming any type of miller is a "100% bad play" for scum.

Corvuus then asks what is the difference if the conclusion for both is that Slysly 'should' be stupidly antitown, and the millers 'should' be telling the truth since it is a 100% bad scum play in both cases.

Corvuus disagrees with anyone who says Sly was "obvious scum" and would like them to point out exactly why. Refusing to claim and going back to create a case is not 100% certain scum tell and Corvuus rejects that.

Many people are going to disagree with that.

Corvuus would then disagree with many people. Corvuus in particular would ask Tajo why he is "certain" Sly is scummy/scum and then why does Tajo post that if Sly "by chance" comes up town, Tajo will pursue after Corvuus. Why "by chance" and why so vague?

Corvuus will point out that Tajo and the others voting for Sly are different from each other. Implicit in the wording of others, was the possibility and 'doubt' of Slysly being town or scum. Tajo states many times that Tajo views Sly as scum and not misguided townie and Tajo pushes for the lynch *MUCH MORE* than anyone else voting for Sly

Yes. What is the problem? I thought he was scum. He deserved to be lynched. Some people agreed with me because it was a decent case. Some people didnt agree with your deadline extension. Why are just singling me again? And according to your hypocrisy theory, pursuing this lynch wouldnt be a bad play as scum?
I ASK AGAIN, IS THIS OMGUS?

Corvuus doesn't like how Tajo avoids answering questions. Corvuus doesn't care how many people agree with you; Agreement does not make it a "decent" case. Are you telling Corvuus that you worked hard to find scum, found slysly (who you should admit is an easy target because of his refusal to 'play', policy lynch and antitownness, and yet you defend Corporate for similar reasons).

Corvuus says that Sly was the easy, automatic lynch with little to no work done or needed. Tajo viewed this in Sly as scummy and such, but you defend Corporate from being the 'easy, automatic' lynch. Such hypocrisy in everything you do.

In addition, there is the horribly scummy statement where Tajo says "in case Sly does turn up town, #1 is Corv". If Tajo is so sure that Sly is scum and no further discussion is needed, then what is what this "SLIP". If Tajo is un-sure then why not discuss more? Instead, Corvuus views it as intentionally attempting to setup next day lynch and bring up weak attacks.

More discussion wouldnt have done nothing. Stop pretending it would. I was pretty sure Sly was scum but you can never be 100% sure until death. We needed Sly's allignment.
Also, stop saying you want to know why did I think Sly was more scummy than antitown. Look at the posts you just quoted.
You say you read Sly as antitown. You say you read me as scum. What is the difference between him and me?

Corvuus disagrees that more discussion would have done nothing. Tajo should stop pretending that it wouldn't. Corvuus laughs when you say that you were "pretty sure" Sly was scum and yet you post "if Sly comes up town, Tajo going after Corvuus". Why are you hedging? Why not post, "If Sly comes up scum, Tajo going after Corvuus", or heck, even "Sly is scum, Corvuus is my #2".

Corvuus already told you what the difference is between you and Sly and others. Sly was a anti-town guy but he was CONSISTENT. Sly as a 'stupid antitown punk' is how Sly always was.

Corvuus points out that others millers have also been consistent with themselves.

Corvuus points out that Tajo has NOT been consistent and is a hypocrite in most things said and done. Sly as a townie, Corvuus could buy; Tajo as a townie just doesn't feel right since your actions and comments are horrible to Corvuus.

Corvuus is asked by Tajo to say why Tajo is scummy in "two sentences". Corvuus thinks that is lame since Tajo says Corvuus is scummy but doesn't elaborate, say more, etc.; Tajo can easily read everything Corvuus said about Tajo several times over and should respond instead of just saying things and then ignoring responses or answers.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus has other comments but is fairly busy right now. Corvuus does want to ask if the quote below is supposed to be Corporate instead of Corvuus.

Not at all. Assuming Coorvus is town, as I believe, he has this lazy playstyle that attracts scum : easy target. But people are attacking his playstyle rather than his arguments. Sly was totally different. He pushed a horrible case and was lynched for that and other strong scumtells.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus is confused.

Corvuus doesn't see why death miller claim is bad for scum if the death miller most likely wouldn't be lynched until 'lylo'. So, yes it draws attention, but because of 'zero information', no one would want to lynch DM unless extremely scummy... but even then it gives zero information, so town waits until lylo despite the actions the DM makes?

Corvuus also doesn't see how this deals with the flaw where we don't know when it is lylo so how do we know that we should lynch the DM before it is too late.

Corvuus points out Crazy's example: If town lynched a 'different' townie in day 2, we'd gain information but then we would still have to lynch DM in day 3 since it may be lylo?

Corvuus doesn't get it and doesn't get the theory. Mafia would 'optimally' never target the death miller since then it is just 'wasting a NK' and they have a chance at getting a power role if they NK someone else. DM claim isn't 100% confirmed town but may be unlynchable until lylo... but at some point town *will* lynch the DM. So how is it optimal for townie to claim DM in day 1? DM will either be vigged or lynched eventually and the only 'advantage' is in the days before that occurs town has a 'better random chance' of lynching scum?

Corvuus wonders about our situation and potential advantage since we have 10 players left, 2 claimed millers and 1 claimed death miller, so shouldn't 'town' advantage be 1/7 of randomly getting scum (assuming all miller claims are true) and then there should be at least 2 scum so 2/7 chance of success?

Corvuus thinks this feels wrong.

Corvuus is confused by potential miller setup . Setup seems to be forcing a certain style of play and Corvuus admits Corvuus wants to break the setup somehow.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus doesn't like too much setup speculation but the possibility of a SK, etc. would alter the perceived lylo right? Example: tajo town, town lynched all mafia scum, get to lylo, lynch tajo and then lose due to SK?

Corvuus doesn't see how we would ever know Tajo's true alignment until told at the end of the game by mod since even lynching tajo at lylo and game not ending may be because of SK and in any case, it was lylo so the game ends. So there is no information gained from tajo ever, whether lynching him today, tomorrow, or lylo.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus would like Corporate to give further reasons than just that.

Corvuus sees Tajo lynch as a 'no information lynch'. The lynch wouldn't be useless, it would get rid of the issue completely so town doesn't have to worry about various mindgaming, lylo, etc. situations.

Corvuus does see Crazy and Tajo's point about it not being advantage to lynch Tajo now, but Corvuus does not see what advantage there is to keeping Tajo around until Lylo. Corvuus wants to hear again why it is an advantage for Tajo to claim day 1 and such.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus is more inclined to see Corporate as potentially 'idiotic/anti-town' than actual scum. Then again, Corvuus thought the same thing about Sly.

Corvuus is going to re-read and try to post Corvuus' thoughts on specific players while Corvuus still can with relative ease.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus has ASCB conference in SF coming up so Corvuus will be on V/LA for 15th-19th area. Corvuus will try to get internet at conference to check in if possible.

Corvuus is still working on his thoughts but Corvuus will answer.

Corvuus:
First serious vote was for one of the claimed millers. In this case Juls.
Votes llama for not reading his post correctly. Llama points out the post in question and Corv quickly backs down saying:

various people have said "flavor", "no flavor", "some flavor".
I said not mass flavor claim, but if specific flavor is aver.
Then we would be on the same page
and not lynch based on subjective gauge.

Don't feel good about this.

Not sure I get his reason for FOS on tajo here:

Corvuus didn't view it as Corvuus 'backing down'. Corvuus felt misunderstood so repost to clarify original position.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we agreed to 'table' the miller plot,
you using your 'miller status' counts for squat.
None of millers are 100% confirmed to me,
and I think arguing based on that 'fact' is shady; hope you agree.

After replacement has weighed in
then discussion can begin.

Why does one person need replacement stop you from making obvservations on other things going on in the game?

I feel a contradiction here:

Corvuus was waiting on Tajo who was waiting on player being prodded/replaced. Corvuus was waiting a different time as well but Corvuus felt players were ignoring Corvuus' posts .

------------------------------

If I ignore the millers in my mind,
then to ignore SC's anti-townness would mean I'm blind.
He may not be scum, but his "style" sucks.
I'd rather him post a "real post townie deluxe".

However, he is only 2nd in my suspicious mind.
LlamaFluff is my #1 choice for a mafia find.

I didn't say SC was the scummiest player.
Just that his play style etc. is biggest anti-town on any layer.

The problem I have with these two statements is that Corv is saying that he thinks llama mafia for ignoring SC, but then states that he didn't say SC was the scummiest player.
Then why did it matter if Llama ignored SC then?

Corv votes for tajo saying that he doesn't like the fact that tajo's post don't seem like a miller. Is this because tajo kept asking the 2 claimed millers questions that he himself would not answer?

Keeps talking about tajo's plan. Did you feel you got a reply to his plan?


I do have to say this quote has a point:

Corvuus initial read on SC was that SC was fairly anti-town/kind of scummy. Corvuus read SC's games and Corvuus is in another game with SC and so Corvuus concludes that SC's meta/play style is just how SC is.

Corvuus admits that Corvuus views players who are "good" and not playing optimally can be considered a possible scum-tell. Corvuus was considering Llama in this sense, just as others are apparently considering Mirth in this sense.

Corvuus says Tajo vote is part based on the 2 claimed miller/verify plan. Corvuus feels that what Tajo said was "Tajo plan" overall was lame or doomed to fail so Corvuus doesn't understand that. Corvuus thinks these various things can be considered scum-tells but no one wants to lynch Tajo until lylo due to information.

----------------------------------

How could you, a death miller, with a 'different' PM have verified them?
Why wouldn't you answer first;ask "the other miller", afraid to condemn?

This post still bothers me:

So, yes it is anti-town for Sly to refuse information at this point.
I just don't see what we would talk about in day 2, except be disappoint.

The problem with Corv's reason for being disappointed really isn't the point.

(forgive me a second here)

Lets say for a moment we don't know Sly's alignment.
If he flips scum we look at those who tried to stop the lynch and why. Those are people who could have been Sly's scum buddy.
If Sly flips town (which we now know) I think this makes things harder because he was in a sense anti-town in his beliefs. Only this reason when you state disappointment does it looks scummy as if someone knows someone will flip town and say see I told you think they are town for not voting that person.

Corvuus points out that Sly's lynch was part-lazy, part deadline and part Sly refusal to defend or claim. Sly was being legitimately enough 'anti-town/scummy' that players could lynch Sly without any real tell out of it. Corvuus also points out that it is day 2, and if deadline extended, more discussion and more out of Sly, then town may be farther than what it is now.

Corvuus felt more information could be gained by Sly talking more, more discussion, etc. thus extend deadline.

Corvuus did see Sly's "anti-town/scumminess" but Corvuus felt Sly was more likely to be death-wish townie than legitimate scum. Corvuus didn't see why Sly would pursue unpopular policy lynch, refuse to defend or claim, refuse to really do anything *and* this be consistent with Corvuus' view of scum players, although that is Corvuus' personal meta.

Corvuus probably should have put a "?" after disappoint but didn't think things will be misinterpreted. Corvuus voted for deadline regardless of Sly alignment since Sly as scum hard to interpret and Sly as town also hard to interpret; thus discussion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day 2 and Corv's is back to Tajo. For Tajo saying that people who asked for a deadline were most likely scum.

Kind of agree. I don't think it matter who as and who didn't ask. I think that is just a reach and a big leap at that.

Ove and over Corv keeps attacking tajo. Some of the attacks it seems is because of tajo asking the other millers for answers. (Which I believe was tajo verifing the claims made by the millers). Also his vote today seems to be based on tajo's comments about people asking for a deadline was scummy. Which I agree is a weak reason to vote or claim someone is scummy. Anyone can ask for a deadline it was a holiday weekend I think it's a null tell myself.
Most of today I don't get a good read on Corv.

Corvuus gives up on Tajo, as long as Tajo is lynched before the end of the game (lylo).

Corvuus will

unvote

for now. Will post PBPA and new vote before V/LA.

Corvuus still feels that Tajo saying "if sly turns up town, going after Corvuus" is a bigger slip than "disappoint". Sly alignment shouldn't matter.

Corvuus thinks the rest is just mindgaming as to what players believe Corvuus was trying to do with deadline extension. Corvuus' stand is that Corvuus did it for discussion since Sly alignment and information from subsequent lynch wasn't as much information as possible.

Corvuus does find it amusing that players say "scum wouldn't possibly fakeclaim miller" since it brings too much attention and yet they are ok with the contradiction that Corvuus (as scum) wouldn't ask and vote for deadline since it brings too much attention and similar logic with Sly. I.e. Sly's actions aren't same for any scum yet everyone ignored this while stating it as a defense for themselves. (in particular tajo and now Corporate).

[Corvuus]

Corvuus' edit by way of post, Corvuus is trying to do too much at once .

Corvuus meant "Corvuus is still working on Corvuus' thoughts but Corvuus will answer."

[Corvuus]

Corvuus just got back from his trip and will catch up and post soon.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus is still struggling to re-read as Corvuus re-settles in.

Corvuus is still confused by many different things.

Corvuus will list them in no real particular order but just how Corvuus read them.

Corvuus dislikes Corporate's 'water fountain comment' and how Corporate describes Corporate's play style as a null-tell than anti-town/scummy. It isn't a matter of 'the rest of us' taking the game too seriously and Corporate just joking around and sarcasm, this and other comments actually strike Corvuus as being fairly scummy/unhelpful.

Corvuus also doesn't get SC and Tajo's posting interaction and the timing with Farside. Tajo asks 'what does everyone think about a mirth lynch", SC asks for a case, Tajo doesn't post or say anything and then Farside posts a case and then Tajo says "see, there is the case, good to see someone thinks along the same lines".

Corvuus doesn't see how this makes sense at all. So more indigent FoSing on Tajo.

Corvuus also doesn't see how Mirth voting for one player over another is scummy since Mirth only has 1 vote to offer and did mention other players. Corvuus also doesn't see the 'sane logic' behind voting for Mirth for ignoring 'scummy/anti-town' players while those voting for Mirth are also ignoring them.

Corvuus will just focus on the following players for now and Corvuus thinks Farside is leaning townie, SC is so-so neutral, while Tajo and Corporate are both scummy and should die.

Corvuus thinks Tajo's slips and Tajo's unhelpfulness and not really posting or contributing is really lame/scummy. Corvuus would think that a 'real death miller' would actually be more helpful and productive as a "semi-confirmed" town, instead of being so defensive and 'turtle-y'.

Corvuus also considers Corporate likely to be scumbuddy of Tajo simply because Corporate asks Tajo to 'spare Corvuus since Corporate wants to see Corvuus in day 2' and Tajo (after saying Corvuus is scummy for 'slip' and for deadline extension) proceeds to ignore Corvuus and change Corvuus status to "neutral-ish". Corvuus thinks this and other actions are all 'wtf' crazy.

Corvuus thinks Tajo and Corporate both should die. Corporate first to get information since lynch would reveal alignment and also whether scum may know inside information (in order to fake claim miller) and various other good things. Corvuus was more inclined to think Corporate was town due to Mana_ku's posts and such but Corvuus on re-read doesn't like Tajo and Mana's pairing and tajo and corporate 'parroting'. Tajo waiting for Mana to answer Miller tracker claim just to get their stories straight and try to confirm themselves off of real Miller SG?

Corvuus will

Vote:Corporate and FoS: Tajo

[Corvuus]

EBWOP
Obviously if someone is the doc you should prob counterclaim.
Corvus, stop being so ridiculous about your cases. How can you think farside is prob town if she thinks that corpo is also prob town?

Corvuus is not being ridiculous about his case. Corvuus sees it fairly well and Farside being town doesn't mean Farside can't have an alternative opinion and think corpo is town.

Corvuus thinks it is incredibly stupid that Tajo would suggest that and Corvuus wants Tajo to die even more.

Corvuus thinks Tajo's slips and Tajo's unhelpfulness and not really posting or contributing is really lame/scummy. Corvuus would think that a 'real death miller' would actually be more helpful and productive as a "semi-confirmed" town, instead of being so defensive and 'turtle-y'.

/double facepalm.
How am I not being helpful and how Ive been defensive?

Corvuus finds this amusing. If Tajo posts how Tajo is being helpful then Corvuus will post how Tajo has been defensive/turtle-y.

[Corvuus]

Corvuus sees deadline coming in roughly an hour and doesn't know what to say.

Corvuus dislikes deadline lynching so...

Corvuus:

Unvote, Vote: Electra

[Corvuus]

well, I have to re-read and I don't know if this is lylo or lylo due to death miller but whatever.

This will be a 'long post' so bear with me. I'm claiming now since I think massclaim can help and technically 4 out of 8 of us have.

This is paraphrased and such, but here is my claim.

I'm a night-kill resistant (not immune) cop who snuck into the insane asylum to help find the killers. For various reasons, I decided that in order to fit in, I would need to fake insanity and that my particular manifestation would be... a... "irresistable impulse" to act or do something and it would change every day. (perhaps because mod vote 'flavor' also changes each vote count). Once I "break my cover" and announce that I am the/a cop then I can post and do whatever I want.

So... I claim cop. I "think" I am sane since I snuck in but mod could hate me even more.

I investigated LlamaFluff on night 1 since I was suspicious of him during day 1 and I dislike players who seemingly act "too town". I investigated SC just now and got "innocent".

--------------------

Tajo: if you are referring to the first deadline, then yes. The 2nd one no.

As regards to my 'kill corporate' attitude, I'm ok with it and I have no idea why scum (unless... scum don't control NKs?...insane random scum?) would pick corporate over everyone else. The only 2 reasons I could fathom would be to somehow incriminate the people pushing for corporate's lynch which is Mirth and I but Mirth has already claimed and such, and I'm still me. So corporate NK to 'just' 'throw' suspicion is kind of weird.

The other reason is to flip a miller in order to confirm the other millers but why would scum do this unless they were miller fake claiming? Either that, or the scum bought my argument that corporate was fake and they hoped to reveal fake miller to get the other 'real' millers killed. Either way, Mirth is either scum fake claiming doc or scum is gambiting that we will lynch her due to her lack of death... but I have other problems with that.

I want to hear Crazy's claim since it was hinted before and I will post my thoughts clearer in a bit.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh. well, i missed your guys' post just now.

I would like Crazy to claim next if we are going by SC's post 1017.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

SC, I suspect the 'millers' more than others and I inevitably seem to suspect you because of your playing style. I picked you since I always think you are scummy based on your meta.

As for Llama, I was suspicious of him and it seemed like he was trying to play a specific way which made me think he was trying to be shady/trying to be town.

So unless you are going to counterclaim or somehow knock my claim out, my reasoning doesn't have to make sense to you at all and you saying this makes me think you are scummy which is precisely why I investigated you. You always say the worst things.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

SG:

I don't know if you thought this through, but Tajo is claimed "Death Miller". So he turns up scum on investigation. If you are asking because I don't believe his claim well, he would still turn up scum on investigation if he is scum so I don't gain anything from it.

Also, for scum choosing Corpo because Mirth wouldn't protect him... is kind of weird. In virtually all situations, scum is better off killing the doc, not someone who wouldn't be protected. Even then, why would scum kill corporate as a miller which gives town information... either it reveals miller exists or reveals coporate as fake claiming. Either way, why would scum do it? I thought of Vig or SK but the mod's death flavor kills that since the mafia wrote a note saying that this would help us. .

SC:

Fine. If you wish to play this game, then who would *YOU* have investigated? I gave a short answer for Llama but I could go back and point out which posts Llama made and how he was acting and what I read from him that made me suspicious.

Or perhaps it is just my interpretation of the cop role is completely different from yours. I can investigate people who are suspicious (and I am likely to be able to lynch them) or I can investigate someone (llama in this case) who I think may be shady but almost impossible for me to lynch. "Easy scum" town is likely to find. If Llama was scum, then I would have had him and in terms of "risk-reward" I considered it a good move.

As for my investigation on you, who else would I target? The millers are pointless to investigate, I expected Mirth to die so I didn't want to waste an investigation on her, and who am I left with? Crazy has already soft-claimed so I considered him out of it, and I just have 'farside, penta, and SC' to choose from.

I have now investigated the two people I mentioned in day 1 (SC, Llama) and I choose you because your posts strike me as scummy but now town has information and we are 'sure' that your scumminess is just you, and not your alignment. I was hoping to get a guilty result on you so I could claim and kill you, otherwise I would have continued this masquerade until I did get a guilty.

Tajo:
I'm still paranoid about you.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Mod: ok. sorry.

SC: Penta was my 2nd choice. The other point is that, Penta voted for you SC after day 1 already ended (I think) so I don't know how I would have chosen him based on that for night 1 investigation.

If anything, i want to hear Crazy claim and Mirth say who she protected.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Corv 1016: Bleh. I think the claim is premature and I'm not sure how I feel about this. I don't like the investigation on Llama, but I still think Corv has been consistently protown, even if a too townie investigation is craplogic. Also were you faking your post restrictions then? Are you still a cop or did you lose your power claiming? What makes you think you're sane though and why did you want to flavour claim day 1?

You can interpret my answer as you like:

I am still a cop regardless of anything posted or said by myself or others.

Unless I'm really being screwed over in terms of mod information, I (paraphrased) snuck into insane asylum in order to help find the killers. I'm assuming I am sane from the wording and such (although, sanity of a cop who does my actions is interesting) and in terms of flavor and what I meant in day 1.....

My description and such could be replaced by "Library" and it would be 'snuck' into the library to help find the killers and such so I could understand Juls' point of view in saying that the PM had 'no flavor' in terms of 'insane asylum' but just stated his role as a miller since my cop role was fairly plain in itself. The only issue (which by lack of existence in others) is the matter of 'irresistable impulse' and my actions with that but I assumed others (whether Petty Thief as Crazy claimed, etc.) have a role but nothing 'specific' that screams we are in a insane asylum and we are 'insane'.

--------

If I hadn't snuck in and had my situation, then I would question my sanity and I even mindgamed myself for a bit where I originally wanted to investigate a miller (corporate) to see the answer and see what my sanity was and I actually changed my N1 action when I felt I "should" be sane. Since I spent time considering sanity/miller, I ended up going with Llama based on my thoughts from day 1. *shrug*.

----------

I don't know what else to say. If massclaiming wasn't brought up then I probably would have continued my character's 'charade' but it was brought up... and being tired of my 'impulse' and.... well... I would have been able to contribute even less today (much worse than my 'normal' signing my name) if I hadn't claimed and we may be at lylo so I considered it best move for town.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Crazy:

When you steal, does it tell you the item you stole?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

hmmm...

So when you steal an item (let's say Night 1) you hold and keep that item for all of day 2 and only on night 2 do you return it and go steal another item from a different player? and it doesn't tell you the item you stole but only reveals it upon death...

So I want to hear Tajo's case on Mirth (or someone) and any remaining claims?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Korlash: No, I won't say why or how. I just am.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Well, when I said I wouldn't say it isn't because of anything sinister but because I don't think the information helped town but rather helps scum.

So unless you are 'similar' in terms of night-resistance, I don't see how this 'verifies' me but here it is.

I have a bulletproof vest that works, at least, one time.

I didn't want to say since I don't see how clarifying how I am NK-resistant for mafia could help but it could actually hurt depending on 'thief' claim, whether i was already targeted, etc.

I did suspect there were two cops due to someone else's wording (i could go back and double check but I thought someone did softclaim/breadcrumb about the possibility of there being multiple cops and I read and agreed and worded my initial claim also mentioning that there might be multiple cops). So if that is who you replaced, then I am more inclined to believe you.

So I am assuming you are a NK-resistant cop as well? If you still want me to say full item name and such then I 'may' but I think it actually puts us in a worse position so I won't say more than it is at least a 1-shot bullet proof vest.

The fact that you say you got a guilty on me tells me you are the 'crazy' cop type but I guess your 'flavor', etc. tells you that as well.

I stand by my statements that I 'sneaked' into the asylum in order to help and such. I am NK-resistant and, due to wording and sneaking in, believe I am sane.

...

I was going to say more but I think I should wait for your response and also check the wiki. There is the cop who always gets 'opposite' and then the cop who gets 50-50 random right?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

hmm. having trouble sleeping.

At any rate, Penta wasn't the person I was thinking of in terms of cop.

Penta had this weird point where he said he thought he might be a miller without knowing it, but I don't know why or where he was trying to go with that... I had some thoughts on it from before, but Kor seems quite sure of his role though. If Kor can verify his NK-resistance via similar item that Cor has then i'm more inclined to think Penta was messing around.

I'm assuming 50-50 cop is *really* insane and 'opposite' cop much more likely (and useful) but I don't know. If we're both cops, both NK-resistant and both 'useful' (once we figure out sanity issues) then miller existence to balance makes more sense but then....

town roster is 'claimed' to be

1 doc, 2 cops, 1 'town' aligned thief(RB type), 1 normal asylum people (3 dead townies), 2 miller (1 dead miller), 1 death miller. rest are scum. ... doesn't seem to add up. I'll probably re-read to call someone a liar and such but miller claims and corporate's NK death confuse me.

I'm inclined to believe Mirth and Kor right now though and I believe I cop verified SC (only townie left) so a 'claimed' role has to be lying.

In which case, I would look at 'thief' claim more but because of the NK, I will also look at Tajo and SG closer. Killing corporate reveals miller role and 'verifies' miller existence and thus other millers? But why would scum do that unless they had fake claimed miller? ... but the order of miller claims still doesn't make much sense then unless scum knew (or lucky guessed) miller role.

yay for more insanity.

Corvuus


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

I counted wrong, Farside hasn't claimed yet. please do so.

C

[Corvuus]

ok, this is really confusing.

Kor: You said I didn't answer/respond to something, I don't see what you are referring to in all the posts above. State it again plz.

As for there being 2 cops and a doc, I can believe it. 1 cop is 'sane' in words but insane in investigation, the other is 'insane' in words but sane in investigation. Someone mentioned possibility of multiple cops early game but I can't seem to remember or find it.....anyway...

For me, the cops have risk of counterclaiming each other, investigation insanity issue and such. Mine says I sneaked in but even then, I still wondered a bit about my alignment. Having a "thief" (RB) seems more of the odd one out than having 2 cops but why compulsive?

but for all i know SC could be 'scum immune to investigation' and the helpfulness of the cop role is reduced to almost nothing due to miller/possible scum roles/fakeclaims/insanity, etc.

So... I'm not too sure how to proceed except to wake up and re-read.

Cop investigation is definitely not going to break this game though.

The fact that I have NK resistance and Kor (potentially) is much more game breaking, especially if scum hasn't targeted me or Kor yet ... and that bothers me. Having a doc and a RB on top of that seems fairly crazy/insane but... compulsive thief and a *blank* doc is possible if the scum also have some cheap power roles so I don't think I'm willing to lynch just based on that.

-----

Kor, is there anything in your pm that tells you whether you are a 'always guilty' cop or a 'always opposite' cop? One is useful the other... well might as well let FL randomize the target for you. Depending on your answer I may (or may not) want to lynch Mirth.

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmm. interesting. Being a random cop would completely suck, but insane cop is do-able.
i don't think i trust it enough tho to say whether you are insane or paranoid.

If you were insane, then you 'confirm' mirth and I, if you are paranoid, then your investigations are meaningless... I guess I don't like how Mirth says you are paranoid and not insane but it becomes too much assumption and circular logic.

....

Shadowgirl: Can you do a full claim as well? I mean, we know you claim miller but could you paraphrase circumstance and such.

Tajo: I thought your question had already been answered. It is randomized if Kor didn't send it in (or penta in this case). The rules also state it clearly so I just moved on. I also don't see Kor claiming NK 'immunity' but 'resistance' and I can see how he would try to verify that himself. If Kor had claimed first, I would have done the same thing.

In terms of my breadcrumbing/softclaiming for my role (which Kor may have not got)... in my early day 1, I tried to show I was 'really insane' but that I would get better over time (no insanity at all) and help town *more* if I lived longer/next day. One part is easier speech, the other is my role helps town the longer I live (aka, cop).

I said I believe Kor (due to claim, NK resistance, etc.) but also because I can believe Penta in terms of him investigating myself in order to check his own insanity (questionable via pm'ed role). If he investigates anyone else or miller, it doesn't really help but investigating me and getting a guilty probably convinced Penta that he was 'insane/paranoid' cop since he didn't believe I was scum (or scum with speech impulsiveness). I'm actually more inclined to believe Kor when I read Penta and his 'miller' without knowing it post. It may be Penta knew (or expected) that he was a 'insane/paranoid' cop and that he would see 'everyone' as millers when their role explicitly said they weren't. Assuming Penta is the type of person to not "just say random stuff" like "hey, i may be a miller and not know it", I can see him doing this.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Kor and Mirth:

I was considering that 'insane' is more in line with insane asylum but 'insane cop' is still do-able while, like Mirth said, paranoid is just much much more bastardly... ugh.

I want Tajo to make a case, and I want SG to full claim her miller role.

....

I'm trying to re-read and maintain my sanity because as it stands, I think Kor and I are 'mirrors' of each other.... if I am sane, then Kor is insane (and both cops work once they know.. this doesn't seem very balanced)... if Kor is paranoid (always guilty results) then would I be 'naive' (always innocent results) and the cop investigations are utterly useless and thus have NK resistance as balance.

Kor has gotten all guilty, I have gotten all innocent and what the heck kind of cop sneaks into a asylum and thinks he can help pulling his poet and didn't even know it type....

Seriously, it just seems so much more bastardly if I was a naive cop waiting to get a guilty so I could claim and then it would never happen....

I need to consider more.

I considered SC cleared because I thought I was sane but I don't know.

...

Kor: just because it is insane asylum doesn't mean you are insane. It is actually much more funny and bastardly if you were paranoid but thought you were insane .

Mirth: I agree that you don't need to say more about rustiness, etc. It doesn't help town.

...

I still don't trust Tajo, nor do I think I am ever likely to. I have a big suspicion coming on but I need to re-focus and re-read.

Shadowgirl full claiming miller is top priority though.


...

on a sidenote, I re-read the rules and this "can't" be lylo. 8 of us, even if we mislynch and a townie gets NK'ed we have 6 (with 3 potential mafia) but if it comes down to 3vs3 then the best haiku wins!!!! Man, i wonder if forbiddan planned all of this. bleh. Since then it would go to 2vs2 and the ultimate haiku battle for the universe is held.

... fitting that our fates be decided by haiku in a insane asylum....

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

the haiku rule isn't that big of a deal but it is kind of funny.

I mean, it only occurs in a 3vs3 situation and that is assuming 'all townies' vote for 1 scum. I don't know how likely that is (considering how clueless we seem to be right now) and so it is 'much' more likely that at least 1 townie will be wrong and it will be 4vs2 and no haiku deathmatch needed unless town guesses right (and scum have all day to mindgame it).

Well... if we 'did' change the rule, then it would be lylo since 3vs3 tomorrow, all scum immediately vote and first 3 votes wins deadlines so scum win the lynch and then the game. So the haiku rule gives town an 'extra chance' if we are wrong today but it is a slim one. I'm ok with axing the haiku rule in terms of it being a 'game' that scum or town should legitimately win and not because scum or town have hidden haiku talent. For town to win like that does seem to cheapen the win although all 3 townies guessing correctly would be quite the feat.

---------------------------------------

Tajo: If you think I am sane, and that Kor is insane, then Mirth should be innocent. Cop investigations (if trusted) trump all.

On a sidenote, I still think it incredibly strange that Crazy (soft claim town power role) and Mirth (claimed doc) both did not die and not only was it not a 'claimed pro-town power role' it was *also* a miller *and* Corporate was suspicious.

Still waiting on Shadowgirl's full claim.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I am also back from the site/serve move.

Corv

[Corvuus]

wow this is moving fastish.

going to re-read but I should post my thoughts soon.

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmm.

still iffy on things.

I don't have much to say on other's questions except the answers are interesting.

SG answered my question in a way i sort of expected (since Jul had said it as well) and that is the 'miller' flavor just mentioned what would happen if a cop investigated but said NOTHING about the presence or existence of cops. (SG confirmed this as well).

So I don't see how Tajo's flavor/pm or whatever for the death miller role (when he said it has similar flavor-ish to Corporate/mana ku and I suppose Jul/SG-ish) and then he said FL's pm about death miller role... ugh. I just want to ignore that since it seems way too out of character knowledge-ish.

At any rate, I don't see why Tajo would mention his role/PM and trying to confirm 'cops' unless he was somehow also trying to confirm himself indirectly by 'confirming the cops'. Crazy is doing something similar where he is saying his role's similarity to Tajo confirms him (and cops should buy into this as well) and it just seems 'bleh'.

Kor and Cor (haha I wanted to do that) both claim Cop but we aren't using 'each other' to prove each other's existence and we aren't using 'flavor'-buddying-ish (or whatever you call it). I never said or implied "Kor is a cop so that shows that I MUST be a cop as well". I said I'm a cop, Kor may be one as well since it is possible (kor said something similar about Kor being a cop and Corv may be one as well), and then we had the talk about NK resistance, sane/insane, etc. and we are convinced that the other is a cop even though our flavors aren't same.

Tajo has always been trying to confirm his role *beyond* what the other millers ever did. Corporate and SG's attitude has been more like, "I'm a miller... yeah... so what?" while Tajo isn't like that at all. It could just be player difference but it just doesn't seem honest or consistent to me. and add that with Crazy trying to confirm himself based on Tajo flavor or Cops existence? It just reads as dishonest/scummy.

Why do you need to use us to confirm yourself? Did you breadcrumb anything else aside from your early softclaim and elaboration?

I also don't understand why you would softclaim like that and not breadcrumb when your softclaim is basically telling scum you have a 'power'... and instead Llama and corporate are the two NKs. Maybe night 1 they left you alone because Llama was 'more dangerous obvious townie' to them... but why corporate (claimed miller) over you or Mirth?

hmm

Corv

[Corvuus]

SG: It was commented on and we don't have the same item but since I don't think it matters at this point... I have 1-shot NK immunity. So if Mirth is doc and did protect me (and succeed?) then I won't be killed tonight (well, ignoring potential craziness of what scum roles there 'are' out there).

---

I think Crazy and Tajo are both liars.

Tajo hasn't convinced me with his latest going after SC post and in terms of process of elimination and other blatant buddying type posts and such...

Crazy, Tajo and Farside are team scum.

Kor and Cor are cops. Mirth is doc. SC is townie and SG is miller.

I'm just throwing this out there, so i'm not 100% certain yet, but I think it needs to be said and see what happens.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

yeah, there are flaws.

I am on board to lynch Crazy to stop one of those 'flaws'. I'm just waiting for Farside and others to comment before I put my vote on.

the other 'flaws' I consider unlikely and since the end is in sight, I might as well go for a touchdown.

I do think it amusing that Tajo says "Mirth is a *beep* as town."

(I don't think that about you at all mirth!)

This seems to imply that Tajo knows Mirth's alignment 'for sure' so while I was so-so but leaning town with Mirth's doc claim and such, this just pushed me over the top.

Corv
P.S. in terms of power roles, I think I'm going to ignore the 'investigation' part of the role completely. The main power of the 'cop' right now is us being '1 shot proof' and even Mirth-doc... it is more her existence than her ability right now. As long as town lynches scum today, then we are almost guaranteed a win. If town mislynches, then town loses.

So... this is it. Play for all the marbles.

[Corvuus]

wow this is going fast.

First of all, I got innocent on llama and innocent on SC. I said that before (when I said I 'may' be naive as opposed to 50-50 or insane) because I got innocents in all my investigations.

Second of all, I will by NO MEANS agree to vote no lynch.

Scum has NO reason to kill a townie and make it easier for us, they will just target one of the '1 NK resistant' cops and we will be exactly where we are at tomorrow as we are today, and potentially worse if Crazy is scum-thief and a cop does get killed.

Third of all, SG, you specifically stated that in your PM it said what happens when cops investigate you. It made no mention of cops actually existing and such.

This matches with what Jul's said when he said his miller flavor was "not really flavor but just what a miller is", i.e. when a cop investigates you, they see you as guilty. To tell a miller that there *ARE* cops would be strange but to tell a townie what happens due to their role is fine.

Now, Tajo is claiming Death Miller and claiming that, his role and PM are not a simple "you are a death miller. if cop investigates you, you turn up scum, if you are lynched you turn up scum. and thats it". but instead Tajo said his 'PM' specifically mentions that cops exist which no other miller has said or claimed as being true.

I don't buy that. Why would tajo say this though with it being a lie? Because he, like crazy, is trying to confirm his role/PM by saying it fits with what is going on in game even when it doesn't make sense.

As for Tajo being the 'first' to claim miller, it just doesn't mean as much to me anymore. Tajo is claiming 'knowledge' of cops existing in his PM! Claiming 'pre-game' knowledge?

The entire basis of Mafia is a 'uninformed majority' versus a 'informed minority'.

Why would any town be specifically told that there are 'other town roles' that *definitely* do exist? I could imagine getting a death miller role and thinking that there has to be townie roles to balance it and thus pro-town roles like cop, doc, etc. *should* exist but for me to know *for sure* based on PM? No. This is also a 'insane' game, for all the millers knew there may be no cops at all and just millers and it is just to mess with their heads.

So it is much more likely that Tajo is informed minority and that he either "knew" that there were cops (and thus wanted to claim miller) or that he knew there were millers.

I find it much more likely (and consistent) if scum didn't know amount of millers or anything but Tajo *does say he knew cop existed* and perhaps scum were either informed or guessed that cops do exist and he decided to go do miller claim on his own. So he gambled and claimed FIRST so that his claim is more believable.

Seriously, it isn't *that* hard. It isn't like claiming doc or cop and being counterclaimed and even if he claims or is counterclaimed, miller isn't going to be killed instantly. It is virtually *the* safest thing to do. Claim miller first and then ride it out. He can make up and say anything as he goes along and if there are millers, use them to confirm himself, etc. etc. He (and us) didn't expect there to be 3 millers and so on.

This next bit is perhaps just my personally feeling but frankly, *if* Tajo was really a death miller, then I don't think he was playing his role correctly or the way I expected him to. (which is why I have disliked his play and such throughout the whole game).

To me, the best optimal move for a Death Miller is NOT to live. Death miller doesn't want to waste a town lynch so the best optimal move is to try to get himself night killed by being dangerous to scum. I.e. scum hunting, being very active, etc.

In fact, Tajo said he was 'basically semi-confirmed town' based on this and that scum can't let him (and other millers live) and my whole viewpoint and read on that is that he should be using his 'semi-confirmed'-ness to actually put pressure and vote after people and be very PRO-ACTIVE.

Instead... Tajo... was more like a turtle and reactive and his thing was getting sly lynched based on sly's case on lynching Tajo. It just doesn't make sense.

Even the subsequent actions and stuff, I just don't buy a town death miller doing those actions.

I could say more, but, in the end. I don't believe Tajo's claim or words.

------------------------

As for SC... SC seems to always be scummy to me in any game. and he does do things I find strange/controversial/scummy (which is why I investigated him) and his latest 'slip' is... actually ok to me.

SC is just being consistently who he is which is his normal 'misunderstanding' self while claiming that he is on top of the ball on everything. At some point SC might evolve into something scary but, as it is, I won't be voting for SC or Mirth.

--------------------------

I think Farside and Crazy are the two who need to start talking.

Crazy: Don't believe your claim. Can you give any breadcrumbing, reasoning or anything else that will help convince us you aren't lying? Also who is your scum picks?

Cor

[Corvuus]

LOL. 63.

Tajo: I wrote out a long post on why you contradict and how you are lying and such... and then I re-read and re-read and now i'm getting close to a wtf moment when I wonder if you are lying or actually telling the truth. You are consistent and not consistent and it bothers me but i'm not as certain right now.

... I guess I think it is interesting that your PM specifically doesn't mention investigation but all the other millers do and other parts but...

In the end, I think the case on you is more than just your roleclaim being a lie or not, so why do you believe Crazy or won't go after Crazy?

---

Mirth: I know crazy's "so called breadcrumb". I think it is crap. I am asking for any OTHER breadcrumbs in addition and such to help his claim/argument, etc. If that is the only point then i don't believe him.

---
Kor: I investigated Llama and got innocent and he did get NK'ed the same night. I did say why I chose him previously but we can through it again if we need to.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

cross posting .

I already said why I won't agree to no lynch.

Yes, it 'would' be nice if Scum helped us out and killed someone for us but 'WHY' would they and why would we assume they would?

Kor and I have claimed NK resistance. Scum can just target us to weaken our "NK" resistance or have a roleblocker/thief who can outright kill us. Even if both cops live, and we investigate Crazy and Farside, it isn't a sure-thing.

I also dislike 'reactive' town. I feel town has the tempo/momentum and we should be using it and pushing. Giving scum a night to talk and regroup just seems incredibly stupid.

If anything, Tajo, I want you to give us reasons WHY no lynch is good in this particular case. I can see 'the potential good' that could come out of it but it is a narrow risky shot at best and I don't think town should just sit on our hands for something so ill-defined.

If this was 3 players, 3 town and 1 scum and no power roles, clues or hints at all, then you are 100% correct in no lynch vote.

However, if there are any clues, hints, certainty or even a power role (like doc) then I wouldn't blindly accept no lynch in that case.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

SG: you lie. Here is post #37 at the beginning of the game. I don't see any word that resembles "investigation". In fact, recently Tajo said his specifically didn't have the word investigation and you said yours does and that his does (when it doesn't).

However I must ask how we can know that pop is telling the truth?

Because it would be totally ridiculous for me to attract all attention in the random stage if I werent telling the truth. I just checked some games and I believe its a consensus that claiming miller ASAP is the optimal play in my case. Scum now has to pick between NKilling me or having a semiconfirmed almost vanilla in town.
And here is the Flavour.

Paraphrasing and using the first person.

I am a miller. I managed to have a gun but sadly it's broken. There could be cops but they will see me as mafia. And if I were to die, people will look at my things and due to my useless gun I will be remembered as mafia.

I wanted to mess with scum's mind before the day is over but I think its better to give you all the package. I am a death miller. That means Ill flip scum if killed.
So thats why I hate Forb, because she gave me this WTF role. I must say, though, that Im playing it as the general consensus establish.

So either you are lying or maybe you didn't understand my point/question. Actually his doesn't mention investigation at all, and you just said it did so perhaps you are lying. Either way, Tajo has been somewhat consistent but it isn't quite consistent with you SG and that is why I am pausing and trying to re-read and rethink. Might have to rethink the whole 'process of elimination' bit but either way, the lynch of the day won't be based on PoE.

but yes, I read ALL your posts SG.

----------------

Tajo: Your point about voting no lynch is not valid at all. The point of voting no lynch is valid ONLY if there are no power roles and no information so that the lynch is random. If it is going to be a random lynch then it might as well improve the odds of that random lynch. so of course voting no lynch is THE best move in that case.

In our case, we DO have power roles and we do have suspicions and ideas. Voting no lynch is by no means optimal since it isn't a tangible advantage of something town is CERTAIN to gain (as in the clear cut case) but something we 'may' gain or may get utterly screwed on.

I believe Mirth is a non-killing doc (50-50 succeed or dont, but not kill) since she protected me twice and I haven't died. If she was a killing doc, then voting no lynch is even MORE insane since then there could be two night kills, 1 from the doc and 1 from scum and it is a losing strategy.

As for scum killing someone (let's 'pretend' that they can't kill the cop for a moment) why the heck would they do so? It gives town information and improves our odds. Even if scum did no night kill, is it auto-lose for them?

If the cops were sane (or could trust there results and no RB) then perhaps it is auto-loss for scum. Investigate farside/crazy and figure things out from there, etc.

So how could this situation not be auto-lose for scum? If Crazy is a scum thief, steals a cops' bulletproofness, mirth doesn't protect the right one or fails and the NK goes through.

Then we start tomorrow with 1 dead cop... who are virtually all but confirmed now so guess what, our odds didn't improve AT ALL.

There are so many things that could go horribly wrong and even if Mirth did succeed in her protection and guess the right cop who got targeted, there would be no NK and we would still be in the same position.

Everything points to "no lynch" being a horrible option since we either stagnate or scum gain advantage. Having the scum able to talk at night and plan tomorrow's strategy/consistency, etc. is just not a good idea.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Kor: why doesn't it happen? i mean, having a result on a dead player?

C

[Corvuus]

This is from Mana_ku/Corporate, the only proven miller.

I'm a miller, not a death miller and I have flavor.
As said by Tajo:

We can start by the flavour to know if he's lying. Everybody has flavor in their roles, right?

I have flavour in my role and it would be strange if the other miller doesn't have any flavour. That's why I asked the mod if my summary was good enough. FL just PM'ed me that it was fine (she guessed ). So here is a little summary:

Miller: You do some stuff at night to stop the players who are out to get you. This makes you suspicious to the cops if investigated.

The word investigate is specifically there, and heck, Tajo specifically mentioned (i forget which post # but I could go look it up) that his post specifically does not have the word investigate. You both claim that your PMs and such are same/similar or whatever, but there are other problems with it as well.

I could keep going on it, but it isn't 100% important right now. I just think your post when you say the word 'investigation' isn't that important due to paraphrasing and then you mentioned earlier in post #1369 that his does mention investigation but I guess that could be confusion and such. hmm, questions questions.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I could make a big post analyzing every possible scenario for who was the NK and what actually happened... but no.

You won't convince me that no lynch is "THE NECESSARY" move. If we were (i don't think we are) utterly clueless when deadline comes then I may consider it.

Baring that, any real attempt at voting no lynch right now, I won't agree to.

---

On a sidenote, I'm tired of the miller claims, talk, pms and such. I am so-so on SG but I still feel Tajo is lying.

Tajo-Crazy -> our flavor are similar since our items are searched upon death.

SG/Juls/ManaKu/Corporate (millers) -> we act suspiciously at night is the main link. The semantics part of investigation word or not, is part of it since Tajo is interesting about it but Tajo's claim just "There could be cops, but they will see me as mafia". This has been the more, perhaps most, controversial part due to wording since no mention of investigation, no mention of acting suspiciously at night is why cops would see him as mafia (which the other millers have all said) and how Tajo has somewhat flip flopped on certainty of cops or not and such.

I still hate the nonsense you pulled with the "trackers" bit. Your plan was nonsense since Juls and others had already said their PM summary and just mentioned what happens on investigation with nothing at all about trackers and you made it out to be something useful to verify them.

but fine. just beating a dead horse.

Let's see what happens when Crazy shows up.

C

[Corvuus]

This is beginning to get to be too much walls of post and such. maybe we should tone it down and stuff.

At any rate, I noticed we had 8 when I talked about the 'it can't be lylo due to haiku rule' and such and I had already decided then that I was completely against "vote no lynch" and so I didn't bring it up.

I think we should 'drop' the no lynch vote topic for now. Give it a few real life days of talking about other issues and if people think we do not have enough information, etc. etc. to make a decisive decision today, then "no lynch" is "possible".

Arguing for a no lynch vote "now" will not work. we have a full week to figure things out and I couldn't careless the points brought out since I don't believe them and we are going to 'agree to disagree'.

-----------

The main issue for me is that the cops are confirmed and there are 3 scum. So people have picked their '3 scum-team' aside from the cops and right now the main power of the cops is 1. we're confirmed. 2. we are NK resistance.

Our sanity/investigation is questionable and I do NOT want to rely on it.

Tajo, your 3 scum-team pick was SC, Mirth, Farside. I investigated SC as innocent, Kor got mirth as guilty. So if you believe we are sane/insane respectively, then they can't be team scum. If you don't believe the cops sanity (naive/paranoid respectively or variation thereof) then Cop investigations from having another day means 'nothing' and we will be stuck.

If you argue that they are GF or something like that, then that calls YOUR role into question since you explicitly state that "town has something to balance out my horrible death miller role".

What does town have that is so utterly overpowering? a * * doc, 2 cops with questionable sanity but NK resistance... and then "3" millers AND scum have godfather who is immune to cop investigation?

So far, the 'town' claims have been consistent where we each had a 'weakness' per se. Kor was sane in speech but is probably insane, I was insane in speech but most likely sane in investigation, Mirth has a 'weakness'. Miller has a weakness.

What is Crazy's weakness? kleptomania so he *has* to steal? his ability *always* works and he *always* roleblocks and has no other problems, is there any downside or 'nerf' to him but rather just him as a unlikely overpowered role? Not only does he "RB" he also "role steals" due to revealing his items on his death. Why both?

ugh it bothers me so much.

........

ok. Step back.

Crazy:

It absolutely does not have any weakness or 'fail' type in your role at all?

Does your ability steal the role of the other person while you have their item? i.e. if they turned up dead, they don't have the item so we investigate their 'burned body' and find 'nothing' so think they are Vanilla Townie AND if you died, then you would turn up as them?

You take an item and hold on to it from Early Night (before all other night actions) all the way until next early night?

Why did you choose Farside to block? I know you said middle of scum list but then, what is your scum list back then?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Lets stop talking about the 'no lynch' stuff for now please.

Bring it up again in a few Real Life days or so but right now it simply isn't helping.

I want Crazy to answer the questions I pointed out in my previous post.

Namely, what was his scumlist (and choosing Farside, Electra);

What does his role say about 'stealing other's roles' (due to items) and what happens if the other person died while their item was stolen and that kind of stuff.

Also, whether he has a weakness or something that isn't a 'normal' RB type.

So continue with your reads, discussion, etc. but 'no lynch' is not going to be decided 'right now' or very quickly.

Corv

[Corvuus]

it isn't that no one cares about this game. I just want to hear from Crazy more since he is the 'most likely' alternative.

I can discuss other stuff if you like.

Corv

[Corvuus]

tajo:

for farside, I am so-so right now. It would just be process of elimination for any suspicion on farside and I'm content to leave it at that but I do read what farside writes.

for coug, I currently believe my investigation and that he is 'innocent'. Unless something insane happens, my mind 'explains' most of coug's more questionable stuff as him just being who he is. which actually is somewhat comforting in a way.

--

I need to hear more from Crazy before I say he is scum fake claiming/lying or whatever. Depends on his answer.

Once he does, then i'm willing to put my vote where my mouth is... I've been waiting until he says more (in terms of answering my questions, perhaps a full detailed claim, etc.) and I didn't want to vote him in the off-chance that he "isn't" scum and that scum can hammer.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Crazzzzzzzzy... come join us in the insane asylum.... you know you want to....

...

anyways, I got comments/notes and such to make but I really think Crazy giving a full detailed response/claim, etc. is necessary before we talk about anything else (discuss, vote no lynch, etc.).

So... Craazzzzzy, come post!

Cor

[Corvuus]

well, I was still hoping to wait for Crazy but I think he is scum and lying so maybe I will just elaborate a little bit since there is still plenty more to 'surprise' with (if you read closely).

Crazy claims that he is a 'compulsive/kleptomaniac' thief who steals "pre-emptively' at night (before any night actions occur) and then holds on to the item until his next steal attempt the subsequent night.

Crazy has stated that he has targetted Electra on day 1 and Farside on day 2.

Let's assume Crazy *is telling the truth*.

Electra would be roleblocked (100% according to Crazy) and have her item stolen. Crazy also mentions how items on death reveal show who the person is. (in his claim to similarity to tajo, it is tajo's gun that is supposed to show death miller, and crazy claims his item stealing also steals roles).

Electra was *lynched* on day 2 BEFORE Crazy's night action.

I.e. Crazy had RB'ed Electra and had/has her items and possible her role. So Electra coming up "vanilla townie" may be skewed since maybe Electra was a power role but no items revealed to show it so she comes up Vanilla.

Crazy would then 'return' the item he took from Electra and then he has claimed to RB Farside. This seems extremely crazy (and yet similar to Tajo) in that the death of people Crazy has targeted (assuming all is true) would mislead town or otherwise hurt us since one of the key information town gets and *knows to be true* (except in tajo's possible Death miller case) is that when a player is lynched, their 'true role' is revealed.

If Crazy *IS* a compulsive thief *AND* steals items (RB) and steals roles (reveals upon death) then it is possible MUCH MUCH worse than Tajo's death miller role.

It was discussed that Tajo is a "no-information lynch" since his result is certain, etc. (debatable on whether tajo is telling the truth).

Crazy's role means (if he was telling the truth) anyone he targets could be a 'misleading' info lynch. If crazy is town and Electra was scum, would we know? I have no idea. If Crazy is scum and his ability *really works that way* but he is scum-aligned, then I'm kind of WTF'ed at it.

There are various other problems with Crazy's claim and comments.

Whether it is his 'crumb/softclaim' and other 'breadcrumb claims', things begin to seem weird.

his breadcrumbs (or what he likes to think of as breadcrumbs) is his claim to be "similar to a miller" but in reality, what is similar? Nothing.

What he is similar to is "DEATH MILLER" not a normal miller. Normal millers upon death have no items that reveal them as scum. They just appear so on investigation.

Crazy's claim is that his items are searched upon death, like Death miller is searched upon death and both reveal items which reveal their roles.

So why so similar to a miller, as opposed to death miller? He does explicity say miller and I have been trying to say (to Tajo as well) that you need to say Death miller and not use miller/death miller as terms interchangably since they are *not* the same.

I could go on but the above is about 70% of my interest in hearing a FULL claim with full details from Crazy and whether he considered possible weakness (or outright anti-townness) of his role and such and why didn't he mention this or claim earlier, especially after Electra was lynched, etc. etc.

Either way, I can't imagine town getting both a Death Miller *AND* a messed up role like Crazy's compulsive thief. If he is town and successfully RBs a scum and we lynch them, then does town ever know? How does his role help town and fit in? Especially since Death Miller role already screws us over, and cops aren't assured reliable (but have 1-shot NK immunity). There are so many irregularities and questions for Crazy to answer, that even 'tipping the hat' and revealing part of it now, there are still several other parts (and inconsistencies) for Crazy to screw up on.

Vote deadline extension

I'd rather lynch Crazy than vote no lynch.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

Was re-reading and my post isn't that clear in how it is worded.

One thing to clarify to make sure everyone gets.

Crazy N1 action targetted Electra. Electra is RB'ed and has random item stolen (role stolen).

D2, Electra was killed BEFORE N2 which is when Electra would get her item back, etc.

Crazy was 'specific' in that he steals at beginning of night and holds on to it to subsequent night.

Cor

[Corvuus]

if it wasn't "lylo" then I probably would already be voting to lynch Crazy.

Please finish your re-read and give us full details (paraphrased and such) for what your role is exactly, possible interactions, weakness, etc.

Another point of interest is how, if Crazy is telling the truth, his lynch is a 'no-information' lynch in the sense that if everything works the way he says it does, then he can turn up town even if he is scum, or turn up scum, even if he is town. He is also 'compulsive' so he *has* to steal from someone so his lynch will never reveal his 'true role' but just of who he claims to target.

Yay for 2 'no-information lynch' roles in the same game, both pro-town aligned.

So... need a full disclosure from you Crazy. Otherwise, I'm calling BS and going to put my vote on.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

He claimed he targeted Farside.

also, i think you meant a 'no' in there.

Cor

[Corvuus]

hm, I didn't think I would need to explain SG but the short answer is that, even if I was 100% sure Crazy was scum, i still wouldn't quicklynch him without him being able to post/say something, etc. beforehand.

Corv

[Corvuus]

yay for crossposting.

Crazy, can you address the issues brought up or restate a full claim of your role and its interactions and such?

The no lynch part and such that you wrote isn't what I was interested in hearing from you right now, so if it is your role, then paraphrase and post it again and talk about it.

As for what you said about millers, it simply isn't true. Revealing upon death is NOT what the miller role is and I don't know where you get that impression. Death Miller reveals on death.

So... if you want to ignore everything else that was said, etc. then just post a paraphrase of your role claim, etc. again and how it works, how you steal, roleblock, role steal and if you were lynched right now, what would you come up as?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

[quote:Crazy]
I'm a Kleptomaniac. Each night I have to steal an "item" from somebody, which roleblocks them. I am told that my actions are resolved

before

kills. If I die before I steal another item the next night, I will show up as the same role as the person that I stole from (because when they search through my belongings, they will find that persons stuffz.) As far as I know, this is all flavor, and really doesn't mean anything literal relating to the game. So I'm basically just a roleblocker that steals the death reveal of the person I roleblock.

If I was lynched right now, I would come up as farside's role. If I am NKed tonight (which plainly won't happen; I can undoubtedly say that Corvuus/Korlash would die.), I would show up as the same role as the person that I roleblocked tonight.

And I can't RB the same person twice in a row.[/quote]

Crazy. Do you have any comments on Electra's death? She was lynched after you stole from her and before you gave item back. Any thought on this or mention of it in role interaction or other? You say you are a roleblocker who steals death reveal so does that mean (or said in role) that if the person you steal from dies, their reveal is different?

Who would you target for RB tonight?

Why would Corvuus/Korlash die tonight?

Cor

[Corvuus]

Crazy:

You may be time-limited, etc. but if you could clarify

1. Who would you target tonight for RB?

2. Why would Korlash/Corvuus die tonight?

3. Does your role say anything about what happens to the person you targeted when they die without their item? I.e. Electra's case, etc.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

mod has told us not to consider the flavor as information and such, and so I think it is better to just read it as a normal NK for now.

no information to suggest anything otherwise.

[Corvuus]

err, edit by post. I meant 'flavor as NOT information'. I.e. whether burned to death, shot, or whatever particularly gruesome thing happens, it doesn't mean anything necessarily.

[Corvuus]

farside:

I know you said you don't have much time but just to clarify.

You don't believe Crazy or Mirth's role claim? i.e. town only has 2 cops, then miller/death miller?

I don't recall you saying who you thought might be scum group, but based on what you said/voting, you think Crazy-Mirth-SC as most likely?

There has been 1 kill every night so far, so 'normal' assumption would be that any doc protection, rb, nk resistance, etc. has failed/wasn't targeted, so what do you mean (or perhaps I should re-read Tajo's point to see what he meant) about mirth's claim?

Cor

[Corvuus]

I'm still waiting for Crazy's response/answer to my last post.


Cor

[Corvuus]

i'm about willing to vote to.

Crazy, why do you say Kor and Cor will be dead tonight?

Cor

[Corvuus]

deadline is 27th, so hopefully we can decide/finalize everything now.

Crazy, i guess you may have misread or misinterpret, but both cops claimed NK resistance and it has been that way since the original claim. So i don't know why you say 'which cop has NK resistance' or that there is a difference between us in that regard. I also don't see why you say one of us would die when, baring 'speculation', technically it "should" not be possible for a cop to die tonight.

Then again, if you are 'scum-aligned thief', then you 'could' steal nk resistance, and the cop would die, proving your statement 'correct' but then you would be scum-aligned thief. You might say that 'the attempt' to target and kill a cop would be made, but i think that is rather silly since it would most likely fail, and the argument of us being the "most confirmed and thus obvious choice" doesn't hold water since scum targeted Corporate (miller) last night when they could/should of killed Tajo (who claims he was most town confirmed) or Crazy (since soft claim, etc.) or Mirth with her doc claim.

---

At any rate, there are many things you say that I dislike. You state that your "RB" doesn't effect other player's reveal and to me, that seems rather important, so why mention this now and not earlier in your original claim? Or when Electra died and flipped town, etc.

---

You (and Tajo) mention that if a cop dies then we "know" that you are scum and can lynch accordingly.

Why in the world would you say this *AND* say that Kor/Cor will die tonight. I mean, either you know more than a town should and know that this is possible, or you are somehow saying it will happen, you will get blamed (as the only claimed RB thief) and that you as 'pro-town aligned thief' will be mislynched when one of the cops is "certainly" killed tonight.

So according to your statements and following the logic, if we vote no lynch today, a cop will die, and you will be 'mislynched tomorrow' and then town loses. Yet... you still want us to vote no lynch ... and say you will make a case tomorrow? There is still time, why not make a case now. Obviously the NK shouldn't affect your case or give you any additional information since, according to you, the NK will be on a cop and you view the two cops as being 'confirmed' so it doesn't lessen the probable suspect pool.

...even if I ignore the "a cop will die tonight" part, and just go with what you said about voting no lynch in order to gain more information and 'prevent' mislynch... ugh, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

One of the main reasons why I did not want to talk about voting 'no lynch' and why it is a bad idea is because it involves 'night action' speculation/optimization and there is nothing good that can come out of discussing it in detail.

There are obvious bad permutations and good permutations of what "could happen" but there are 'extremely' bad permutations that are very real and with 3 scum left to talk about it over potentially several "real life" days, it is quite likely that they will choose it and this "hope for the best" attitude and that scum will choose "incorrectly" or 'stupidly' is scary to me.

In virtually any other game/sport (chess, tennis, etc.) a move that relies on your opponent's stupidity/unforced error is silly when compared to being able to make a 'real move'.... especially when giving 'scum' the 'tempo' back is tantamount to suicide almost since they 'choose' the NK, and we have zero information about 'scum roles' that may exist.

It has always bothered me that you (and Tajo) use the defense of "if a cop dies, then kill Crazy" since, seriously, we do not know what scum roles exist and if they have their own roleblock/thief or heck even a method of having a "1-shot auto kill that goes through cop/doc regardless" and that they can use.

Your statement of "cop will die since they are most confirmed" (despite NK resistance claim and Mirth doc claim which could stop it) and no worry about scum using your statements to twist them and turn them to 'scum' advantage also freaks me out since....

Assuming vote no lynch: Scum could have a roleblock (not thief) and block a cop investigation. Who do we blame? Crazy. Scum could have a instant kill that bypasses doc protection/nk resistance, cop dies, who do we blame? Crazy. Scum could have "anything" or heck even "nothing" and NK 'someone' and the result will most likely be "blame Crazy".

Most of the "non-instant lose/horrible" permutations result in something of "blame Crazy" except in the ones where Crazy is NK'ed. But seriously, if we did vote "no lynch" instead of lynching Crazy, why would scum NK crazy for us. I think I can safely speculate that Crazy (if town) would not be today's NK but then you (Crazy) will almost certainly be blamed tomorrow (even if no one dies!) and it just leaves me to wonder why you would put yourself in that kind of position, and heck why would Tajo put you in that position as well and he did it 'much' earlier than you.

I mean, if Crazy and Tajo 'are' town, then why speculate, talk, discuss so that Crazy will be blamed tomorrow if various things happen and that no lynch/wait and see policy is best in this case. It announces to scum (assuming they are town) that if they can do "any" of x amount of permutations with their abilities then we "will" lynch Crazy tomorrow. If you guys believe/know that Crazy is town so much, why link him to so many things so that he can be 'mislynched' on things that we do not know.

I mean, you could argue that Kor or I brought up 'some of the issues' first or hinted at (or at least, I did) of what possibilities there could be first .............but Crazy's statement of "if a cop dies, then yeah lynch me" and a "a cop will die tonight" just has to be the weirdest possible statement to make if you are town.

The more I think about the statement, the more BS it feels since Crazy's 'later' qualifying statement to 'lessen' it was "i didn't know which cop had nk resistance".

but this is such a blatant lie that can not POSSIBLY be true.

Either you said the cops will die since they are most confirmed and you believed this since you thought 'neither' had NK resistance (not likely), or you thought one had nk resistance but not the other (despite us saying we both did/confirming each other, etc. and the fact that you say "Cor/Kor" will die implying that we are 'the same' instead of saying "the cop without NK resistance will die", etc. it tells me various possibilities and it isn't good for you (Crazy).

I could add on additional things that SHOULD have been said by you, and things you say in previous days, but seriously, your 'claimed' power role is horrible, your analysis and such of it is horrible and everything just reeks of lie and scum.

If (and most likely *when* we lynch you now), what will you come up as? You targeted Farside, you say Farside is scum (process of elimination you state) so when you are lynched, what will you flip as?

You, like Tajo, flip as a 'no-information' lynch EXCEPT at lylo. If tajo was lynched now instead and game went on, then we would know he was scum. If you are lynched and game goes on, then we know you were scum. If we lynched you at ANY other time, then we would have no idea of your true alignment since it is whoever you targeted (in this case farside) and yet... in your original claim, you state that the "power" behind your role is as a one-time Investigation and not roleblocking!

This is such a blatantly bad ability (or at least, your interpretation of your 'role) that I never liked. You told me to believe that a townie needs to 'die' in order to 'attempt' to marginally gain something which most likely will be 'nothing' since you need to claim, get us to believe you, tell us your target, get killed, etc. and you couldn't give us any information without scum controlling it since you need to post it in order to tell us. In addition, you word it such that you are lynched and not night killed, even though 'technically' both should be possible.

-----

I dislike deadline lynches. So I am willing to hammer Crazy at some point near the end of the 26th. Don't wait until the 27th if you have anything less to say.

I would also say that chances of you being town diminish the longer you are at L-1 at lylo, but then again, your 3-scum team is already voting for you, so technically it doesn't mean anything to you.

Either way, no lynch isn't going to happen. Crazy lynch is going to happen within the next day, so post what you want to post before we move on.

Corv

[Corvuus]

i'm going to hammer at 10 pm pst, jan 26th.

post what you like but i don't think cop or doc need to say who they are going to target.

FoS: having two 'no information lynches' except at lylo. (Tajo, Crazy).

Cor

[Corvuus]

Hi everyone,

my time is extremely limited and i won't be able to post that much in any of my games and such.

so even though it is extremely unlikely (with me VLAish and a new replacement) don't go 4 votes on anyone yet.

I targetted Farside and got a guilty result.

I picked Farside for several reasons.

1. I believe I am sane or naive.

2. I didn't believe Crazy when he said he targetted Farside if they are both scum, which is what I had a feeling for due to process of elimination and since I believed SG was miller. Crazy turning up town upon lynch (which I saw before I made my night choice) but game NOT ending would lead one to conclude that Farside was not scum, and that possibility freaked me out more than anything if i actually trusted Crazy telling us the truth about who he targetted so I felt that Farside was the ONLY choice I could go for.

I did have a mindgame moment when i considered Farside being "cleared" by Crazy and thus scum nightkill Farside, but I considered it extremely unlikely due to

1. I didn't believe Crazy.
2. Why nk farside when there is claimed doc? That is still unexplainable but i'm still alright with mirth for now pending Kor's sanity.

---------------------------

So ....

In conclusion (since I won't be able to post much or give much input)

Cor, Kor are claimed cops, 1 NK immunity. (Cor investigated by Kor and came up guilty)

SC is claimed townie (investigated by Cor who is not naive for sure now and most likely sane, thus I consider SC clear).

Farside is claimed townie (investigated by Cor, came up scum on result)

Mirth is claimed doc (came up scum, investigated by Kor)

Populartajo is claimed death miller.

Due to process of elimination of Cor, Kor and SC being town for *sure* with Mirth leaning town for me, I am going with Tajo and Farside as the two remaining scum since

1. I got guilty on Farside.
2. I disbelieve Tajo on several parts.

I hope to check in later.

Take care,

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I have some time before I need to head out to friend's party and I checked in to see if anyone had anything to say about my post.

My current view (if it isn't clear from my hasty post before and my post from last night) is that the game isn't over since Crazy is scum. His role claim made himself into a 'no information lynch' that we wouldn't know unless it was lylo and to me, it was lylo, Crazy was lynched (flipped town) but the game didn't end so that tells us his alignment was scum. That made it, to me, more important to investigate Farside and check on 'worst case' as compared to trying to 'verify' sanity or not which may be null result or not interpretable.

Assuming all of this, I can believe Crazy's roleclaim (but scum aligned) but I doubted the truth of his targets and such. So I picked Farside for various reasons outlined in before post. I got a guilty result and it happened to also verify that i wasn't naive, but either sane or 'eek', 50-50. 50-50 is scary, so I will assume i am sane.

Kor: you got a innocent result on a claimed death miller who should have come up guilty. This says many things. One, you aren't paranoid.

Two, town shouldn't lie (or at least, we hope not) so Tajo is telling the truth about being a death miller and you are a 'insane' (reverse result cop) or Tajo is scum fake claiming death miller role and you are 'insane' cop who got innocent on a real scum. Either way, it would point to you being a 'insane' cop than a paranoid one.

If this is true, then it would confirm Mirth and Cor. If mine is true, then it would verify SC and condemn Farside. With estimated 2 scum left, then it should basically be game assuming that *both* cops are NOT 50-50 (which would be extreme WTF)

I'm willing to vote Farside but I want a response, etc. first from everyone, plus (in case I am 50-50), I don't want to throw my vote out and then be VLA and scum are able to lynch someone. By not throwing my vote out and with 4 votes needed for lynch (and assuming target will not self vote), they would need everyone else to agree on it and I don't want a 'quicklynch'. I'd rather hear what Farside has to say about me getting a guilty for them and why Tajo said we should have investigated Farside and what he has to say on it.

I'm perfectly willing to believe Farside/Tajo are the scum pair, that the game is virtually 'over' and all we need to do is lynch Farside first, I investigate Mirth and based on that result, choose between Mirth and Tajo as the final one (based on extreme longshot of Tajo actually being death miller but then that brings up a slew of more questions and problems).

Either way, I believe Kor's cop claim and... assuming both of us still have NK resistance since someone has died 'every' night then the game seems practically over.

So... part of me wants to be hasty, vote and get it over with; part of me wants to see how scum respond, etc. just in case.

Corv

[Corvuus]

eh, i missed your posts.

Crazy's lynch doesn't mean ANYTHING for Farside since the game is still on thus Crazy was scum which means Crazy is a liar and thus can lie about his targets, etc.

It is that possibility that made me investigate Farside and I got a guilty. I choose Farside because (after various consideration and mindgame) I was worried that Farside would be scum and would use Crazy's claim in order to clear themselves so that we then mislynch and lose.

I want to hear from Tajo about his asking us if we investigated Farside or not statement.

----

In addition, only scum know what their power roles are. Crazy's power role (scum-aligned thief) seemed to be the counter to the cops and with his death, scum may not be able to deal with NK resistant cops. If they could have, scum would have killed the cops by any means necessary or heck even RB us to prevent us from gaining information. I wasn't RB'ed and neither was Kor so apparently the scum are either 'normal' or have other tricks.

I was worried about various speculation and other decisions to consider and make, but getting a guilty on Farside means I don't need to worry about whether SC is a godfather or various other circumstances yet. Farside claimed townie, I got a guilty, I think I am sane, so Farside needs to discuss implications and such and Tajo as well for his statement.

-----------

As for the Nightkill, I don't understand the exact 'scum' line of reasoning since it would be better to target a cop and waste a NK resistance than to actually kill someone (or kill someone investigated and verified like Mirth or SC). I was leaning towards SG being miller and Farside in with Crazy and Tajo and SG dying actually does puzzle me.

Actually, SG's death is perplexing to the point that... well... the only possible scenarios I could think of aren't really helpful.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ok, i really got to go drive now .

i do consider Godfather possibility but since I got a guilty on Farside, I don't need to think about it more. If i had gotten a 'innocent' then indeed we would be at square WIFOM.

C

[Corvuus]

i got prodded in my other game, so im checking in.

Clarifications:

Kor and Cor are not NK immune. We are 1 NK resistant. Reading day 1 and day 2 can be helpful/interesting for finer points and such but many things happened on the start of day 3 which are extremely important, and ... while I believe it is anti-town to ignore previous days, I can see what Kor means that reading day 3 onwards is the main 'meat' of what is going on.

Mainly that everyone claimed, etc.

You left out Crazy claiming roleblock and role 'steal' (sort of) thief role and that he targeted Electra N1 and Farside N2.

I targetted Llama N1, SC N2 and Farside N3.
I got innocent, innocent, guilty.

Kor targetted Mirth, Cor and Tajo.
He got guilty, guilty, innocent.

There was discussion throughout day 3 on sanity, 'mirrors' and such with me thinking I am either sane or naive and Kor either paranoid or insane. With N3 and both of us getting the 'other' result, we know for 'sure' that we aren't naive (always innocent) or paranoid (always guilty) so that leaves us thinking sane and insane respectively.

It could be 50-50 for 1 or both of us, but then we might as well go jump off a cliff.

That is a 'recap' of where we 'think' we are but you can read the actual claims, flavors, etc. to see for yourself. The 'normal' millers who claimed are all dead now. It may interest you to read how the claim of Kor and Cor being 'mirrors' of each other is based on Kor being sane in words but 'insane' in investigation while Cor was insane in words but sane in investigation. Otherwise, I think the word 'mirrors' (at least as Tajo/Kor were discussing) is misleading.

Tajo and Crazy are not mirrors, or at least, in my interpretation, mirrors is a type of reflection/opposite. .... actually.... wtf...

hmm... I have to reread that but tajo and Crazy *could* be mirrors of each other if Tajo is death miller (town who flips scum) and Crazy was scum who flips town. Anyways, I thought Tajo and Crazy were claiming similarity in that both flip something different upon death... weird. I have to re-read what Tajo meant.

Tajo: I know you are VLA-ish but could you clarify what you meant by mirror and such and what you think Crazy is? You stated he is scum, but what role do you think?

As for Mirth... I think you should read her claim/posts yourself and come to your own decision and interpretation. Kor calls her 'rusty doc', I think Tajo has called her 'killing doc' and I'll just refuse to comment more than just say that she is Mirth.

Cor

[Corvuus]

Farside: Crazy said the exact same thing almost word for word .

but the game hasn't ended yet.

At any rate, although unlikely it 'may' be possible that i'm 50-50 and that the investigation is wrong (or some other scum power reason?) and I'm not 100% willing to hastily bet everything on an investigation yet. I still think the main 'overpowering' part of the cops right now is that we are NK resistant and apparently the scum team (without Crazy thief perhaps) can't do much against the cops directly.

So I would like to hear more from you (Farside) on what you think etc. and such.

From previous day, you said you thought

Crazy
Tajo
Mirth or SC

were the 3 scum group?

The game is still going so i think we can assume Crazy was scum despite his words and flip... so instead of your potential lynch, who would you recommend/build a case on?

I'll admit, if SG wasn't killed (or heck if there was no NK at all) then I think the game would be totally different and my approach different... and SG dying still bothers me....

What I say next may seem like a trick question and such and perhaps misleading (and it probably is) but I kind of want to see how everyone will react and it will give us something to talk about.

--------------------------------------------

I was against voting no lynch yesterday for various reasons which I won't repeat again right now.

Ironically with SG (and thus all normal millers dead and only Tajo Death miller claim left) and Crazy (claimed thief who most likely was scum thief anti-cop role) dead.... voting no lynch today actually *is* very plausible.

Both cops are alive, presumably with NK resistance intact. Neither was Roleblocked (other potential ability to screw with our investigations? shrug) and if scum couldn't do anything about us 'last night', I see no reason why they could deal with us this following night so it isn't a "blind hope for the best" type situation as yesterday potentially was. (i am basing this on optimum move for scum would be to kill cop and since it wasn't done, it simply can't be done).

Either the scum kill someone (narrowing the potential pool even further) or they target one of the cops and 'chip' away at NK resistance but we will survive.

Either way, the cops both get another investigation. There is something Kor can do to help break this setup even further and i think for myself I can say the fairly obvious fact that I would investigate Mirth this night simply because I already investigated SC and Farside, Tajo would be pointless (can't interpret) and I trust Kor due to our claims.

The result for the cops may prove conclusive and the potential pool may be narrowed even further.

There are various other details and such and I'm not going to vote no lynch right 'now' since the day just started but I think it is something to keep in mind and see what people say.

Personally, I'd like to hear from Tajo and Farside first since they are on my most likely scum 'list' but responses from anyone is fine.

----------------------

I'm still puzzled over what scum are thinking/doing since killing SG was probably the 'worst' move possible and I'm glad town didn't speculate or discuss worst case scenario/optimization yesterday since it may have come out.

Ironically, millers would be the *most* useful now for scum in order to confuse investigation and cop sanity since SG would be 'impossible' to clear by cops but everyone else alive (baring Tajo) is. SG dead simply makes voting no lynch and 'following' the cop even more game breaking.

------------------

So i'd like to hear from everyone and while I think it may have already been said, please repeat your choices for the potentially 2 remaining scum and what you think about voting no lynch.

(just so people don't say I didn't say my 2 first, I will say Tajo and Farside for various reasons such as Process of Elimination, investigation, etc.)

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Tajo:

You can say what you would like, just like Farside and Mirth say what they like. It isn't a 'gotcha' trick question type but I want people to talk and say something more, etc. so that we aren't exactly stuck with "got a guilty on farside, let's end it" and then discussion just ends there. It is the start of the day.

So i'm not 100% yes on 'vote no lynch', I just think it is more viable today than yesterday and I want more discussion on where people are at, etc.

At any rate,

-------------------------

Farside: I don't quite understand why you say you are now stuck with a death miller role. So you are saying that if you are lynched you will now flip scum? Wouldn't it be that Crazy somehow instead of 'stole', 'gave' you an item to make you like a miller on investigation? Clarification?

Other than that, you have Tajo as today's lynch, and then tomorrow we could investigate check Mirth/SC and decide from there would be the general plan?

-----------------

Mirth:

Farside and Tajo are your picks.

Is there any way or possibility you could hint or say what the 'downside' is that helps scum?

I do see a potential snag but I'm not too sure if you see the same one or something i'm missing.

----------

Cor

[Corvuus]

ok. thanks for the responses.

Mirth: would the snag occur only if we voted no lynch? or something that scum could do even if we did lynch today (hopefully correctly).

Looking forward to hearing from the rest.

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmm, I don't think we are thinking of the same thing then Mirth.

perhaps just to indulge me, is it safe for me to assume you would vote to lynch Farside, assume we do lynch correctly, etc.?

C

[Corvuus]

crosspost .

i'm assuming you meant the result on me as guilty was worthless and not that i myself am worthless .

At any rate, I'd like Tajo and the new guy (KK?) to say a little before we move on, etc.

C

[Corvuus]

well, i'm still waiting to hear more from the new player but something I think needs to be clarified.

Crazy claims he targetted Electra and then Electra was subsequently lynched and flipped up as town. So Crazy can not have an ability that turns people into death millers (at least not on a permanent basis) and then assuming he actually told the truth about his target.

Crazy did say that he 'softclaimed' because 'something happens upon his death' and he wanted to WIFOM/mindgame scum (and perhaps town) and that could be because when Crazy dies some ability happens... he said this in his initial claim but later on, his thief claim didn't really synch with this since according to the thief claim, nothing good would come out of his death at all basically.

Anyways, all of that is mere speculation and such and I'd have to admit I do not like how farside said "it turned me into a death miller" so Farside will flip scum if lynched now.

I hate how people continue to use death miller/miller interchangably at points but I consider the death miller conversion instead of a miller conversion to be a potential scumslip.

The guilty result "could" be since Crazy made her into a miller "somehow". But a death miller? That is impossible to know or even suspect and for Farside to say it just seems odd.

I can post more of my thoughts but the death miller phrasing bugs me most right now, so i'd like to hear what people think.

Corv

[Corvuus]

as i said, i don't like people using death miller/miller as interchangable words .
but despite me saying it several times throughout the game, people still do.

C

[Corvuus]

I think there is more than enough here for people to comment on and such, so i look forward to kk, et al.

As for power balance/game setup, I don't think it is 'too useful' to try to balance it with the way things are 'now'.

Right 'now' the setup may seem broken since there are 2 cops with NK resistance and 'sanity' issue but you have to consider that the beginning of the game was 'fairly' dangerous.

"insane" cop Penta getting a guilty on corv -> could have accused, claimed, counterclaimed and cops kill each other. Corv and Kor could have counterclaimed and killed each other. Crazy (if scum thief, RB) could have gotten a cop, etc. Millers could have killed each other. etc.

So to argue 'now' that it is overpowered just isn't useful since there were MANY opportunities for things to go wrong and yet, somehow, only townies and millers died allowing the end game to have 'claimed power roles' and thus 'may' be broken.

So to say that scum have to have a godfather or a 'role switching role' now, as opposed to before, is kind of misleading.

I'm just still debating on what I should believe of Crazy and how he said "something bad happens upon my death", if that means roleswitching type or was it just usual BS which transformed into thief claim. The mod flavor has Crazy 'returning an item' but I don't think we should rely on that as 'proving' Crazy was a thief since Mod may just hate us ALOT .
(don't worry FL i don't take it personal!).

I am leaning towards a vote on Farside but I want to hear others first.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Mirth: can you say the 'bad thing' that could happen even with a successful scum lynch today? I'm thought about it, and I can't quite figure it out.

Corv

[Corvuus]

KK:

why do you think there should be a post-restricted doc? because of the whole 'mirror' thing?

To one extent, thinking of it as mirrors is interesting but I think it is kind of mod speculation and such for whether there should have been a "2nd doc with a PR" or something like that. Having 2 cops (mirrored) and 2 docs (mirrored) would be really weird.

Cor

[Corvuus]

This is a long post. Sorry.
---------------
KK: I don't think it precludes a godfather in this setup but, Kor investigated Mirth and got a guilty which would mean that Mirth 'shouldn't' be a godfather since then Kor would get a innocent. If anyone is a Godfather, it should be SC (you KK).

Kor: as I said before:

I snuck into the insane asylum to help. (thinking sane cop) and I brought my NK resistance with me. Because of the 'craziness' I expect to see, my character decides to have a ... 'rotating compulsive desire' (i suppose similar to how vote count description changes each type to a different disorder) to do something in order to try to 'fit in'. Day 1 and day 2 should be obvious.

Whether because the 'compulsiveness' was not very noob-friendly or such, or whatever reason, if I decide to break my 'compulsiveness', then I must claim my role. The paraphrasing would be that: I was trying to fit in, but once revealing myself (i.e. I am a cop, I've come to help) then I no longer need to 'keep up appearances'.

It could also be that if I had to continue my 'compulsiveness', then no one would ever believe I am sane, etc. etc.

Ironically, I think i was the first person to say "mirrors" in this game, and that was because Cor was 'insane in words, sane investigation' and Kor was sane in words, insane in investigation. As for the 'compulsiveness', it might be for balance reasons somehow (2 cops with NK resistance and it looks like we are 'sane/insane' respectively is quite powerful) and I speculated (back with Crazy's claim) that the town-aligned roles all had a 'negative/weakness' to them. I.e. Kor was 'insane', Cor was 'compulsive speaking', Mirth is a 'rusty doc', and so forth. I didn't consider my 'compulsiveness' to be "odd" but rather in keeping with town-aligned roles getting 'screwed'.

One reason I didn't like Crazy's claim is that his so called weakness was that he had to use it "every night" but not on the same person and his interpretation of his role.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The game seems to be dragging a bit, and this might be hubris of me, but I think virtually everyone here sees me as my claim so I will state 'where I am at' and see if we can progress from there.

Refer to my previous post on Crazy lynch and why I investigated Farside.

---------------

Day starts, and I find that Shadowgirl is killed. This perplexes me a great deal since I expected either no one to die (due to NK resistance or potentially Mirth) or for Mirth or SC to die... not SG.

To make this simple (sorry I can't be anything but verbose):
I believe Crazy was scum and we have 2 scum left.

I believe scum ARE playing to win and there are two different 'modes' to consider. Scum playing their hand 'together' and scum 'playing it solo'.

It is overwhelmingly obvious that scum discussed and decided to play it 'solo' and rely on mindgames to win at the end. Most likely scum will bus each other.

For a 'scum-team' play, I would have expected no one to die (thus giving scum a potential extra vote with SG) and in the current situation, I consider it extremely unlikely for scum to try to win with both members surviving.

There are 6 players, 4 to lynch, 2 are scum, 2 are cop claims and 2 are doc/townie claims. I'm going to assume everyone (scum included) believes the cop claims. I will also assume that the cops won't vote each other (at least, I won't vote Kor without incredible reasons) and no one will 'self-vote'.

That means it is 'virtually' impossible for scum to win by team vote. If they vote a cop, it is tantamount to suicide, if they vote the townie/doc, the victim won't self-vote and even if they convince the other town-aligned player, that is still only 3 votes. Thus scum would have to convince the cop(s) and that may prove difficult (since they may also vote together).

Team scum can be easier to see than solo scum, so my original purpose in saying "vote no lynch" and "i may be 50-50 on farside investigation" was my attempt at hoping to bring scum back into "team scum" mode with them playing "convince the cop(s)". I said my post was misleading and I think people know by now that I'm not easily convinced (am stubborn-ish). The point was, I wanted Farside to react without just clamming up and I was hoping someone else (in this case Tajo) would react as well in "convince the cop". I called into question my sanity and my vote (no lynch) because I want to present 'hesitation' so that people will try to convince me.

Farside acted roughly as expected. Said something about Kor, said about no lynch, and that within itself might be 'innocent' but then I gave the 50-50 alignment possibility of myself as a way 'out' but Farside chose to say that she was a death miller now due to Crazy (i consider that part crazier than Crazy's claim). I consider that a good amount of 'circumstantial' evidence to consider a Farside lynch in addition to my guilty result.

The main problem is.... all signs point to scum NOT going for a 2 scum team win but rather a 'solo' scum sneaking into endgame and due to WIFOM/mindgame, surviving the 'final round' and winning. I hoped they wouldn't but apparently that is why someone was chosen as NK. I still don't know why SG since if the end game was SG, 2 cops and scum, then it would be harder for cops since SG is guilty on investigation while everyone else can be investigated. SC got innocent, Mirth got guilty (innocent by insanity). SC could be godfather or anything but I don't think Mirth is godfather or SK. (unless SG was completely obvious townie compared to SC and Mirth which is also possible).

I consider Tajo very likely to be scum since if scum 'know' that team scum can't win together, then most likely they will decide to "bus" each other and such and hope for a win in the endgame. Tajo and Farside are the only ones voting for each other. Everyone else, (me, Kor, Mirth, KK) continue to play 'solo-acts' and the meta of what I expect/am thinking, doesn't seem to quite fit.

I do fear there is some role that hasn't been considered (SK or whatever) and that things could implode or that I'm completely wrong. That is why I was trying to get scum to go for a 2-scum team win but it is so-so.

........

I'm fairly convinced that Farside is scum. If the partner is Tajo... then that is one thing. If the partner is "not" Tajo, then I admit, I'm quite perplexed. I believe Kor (due to Penta, claim, etc.) and I'd be amazed if he was scum working this out somehow. Mirth, I'm potentially more biased (pro-mirth) towards since I played with her before in a different game and I think I understand/like her play. 2 points bother me a little, but... they would point to her being a serial killer or something and that simply doesn't make sense. SC I wished hadn't replaced since I consider him 'easy' to read. Scummy words but not scum. I'm inclined to believe my investigation though and that SC isn't a godfather (or at least, various reads and signs that he shouldn't be).

At this point, I think I am overthinking things and I think I'm about ready to move the endgame.... I will be voting to lynch Farside followed by a vote to lynch Tajo.

Of course, I am still playing 'convince the cop'.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

been really busy lately. sorry.

i don't have time to post out 'everything' that I think and such but, my previous 're-read' and interpretation of the game is that I don't think Mirth is scum, I think Kor is cop, I believe my result of innocent on SC/KK.

Farside has 2 votes on her now and i'm just considering now the odds of her 'not being scum' and being lynched right now. Farside won't self-vote, cops aren't voting yet, so...

Tajo and KK are voting Farside, Mirth isn't voting yet.

Mirth "could" be godfather. Then again, so could SC/KK. If it was still SC, I would say SC is definitely not a godfather and most likely town due to interaction and wording and my cop result. Mirth has been a 'solo' virtually the whole game and has had pressure or been gone after by basically everyone at various points and I just can't see scum buddy linkage. It is weird for doc to survive this long, but I would have to accept that scum went after Mirth to force her to claim (and thus do a doc fake claim if she is also scum?) and she may have been counterclaimed, etc. etc.

At any rate, I see Kor, Cor as definite town; KK and Mirth town via investigation (precluding godfather potential) and Tajo and Farside are the only ones left. Farside with a guilty result (and circumstantial evidence) and Tajo is just Tajo.

I'd rather things fit into simple scenarios and such but I simply do not understand what is going on and what people are saying and doing.

Crazy can not be "everything". i.e. scumthief, RB, reverse death miller, etc. He is only "one" thing and it is a scum-aligned thing.

I do not understand why Crazy would 'soft-claim' as he did, what he said, etc. the whole reveal/change thing upon death, similarity to tajo, reverse death miller... so much nonsense and lies and we get NOWHERE close to the truth upon lynch since the flip is already determined against us.

And I guess that is the problem that bothers me the most. "Normally" the surest way of information is looking at what a person flips as upon lynch (heck, if Crazy had flipped scum aligned thief, things would be much more simple) and yet town is denied this 'twice' at least with Crazy and Tajo potentially. So many things against town, and now on TOP of all town-aligned having a 'weakness' or problem, you want me to believe there is a godfather in addition.

So the gamesetup would be (assuming people are telling the truth for a second):

2 millers, 1 death miller, 1 insane NK resistant cop, 1 sane NK resistant cop, 1 'rusty' doc, vanilla townies and a Crazy-scum who is either reverse godfather or scumthief/RB thing.

and you wish me to exchange it to

2 millers, 1 DM, 2 cops, 1 godfather, vanilla townies and Crazy-scum 'phantom role' that flips town upon lynch.

In addition, the godfather is Mirth who would make a fakeclaim (with a role like a godfather, would you fakeclaim since you could be counterclaimed?) of doc after putting voted and pressured for it by people who are still alive (tajo, et al.).

I just can't swallow it. I thought Mirth might be a SK at various points but she can't be a SK and a Godfather right?

At any rate, I'm probably going to wait for Kor to respond 1 more time than vote to lynch Farside. At least, if we are wrong, it should be unanimous.

Corv

[Corvuus]

eh, re-read some things and post#1000 area (when we start massclaiming) and Electra's lynch are interesting... so I simply do not see Mirth as scum and will not be voting for her today.

Mirth: if you do end up being scum (and not SK) aligned with Crazy, then I'll tip my hat off to you.

----

Actually, the more that I consider and think about it....

I'd much rather lynch Tajo today and a potential farside scum tomorrow.

I feel I have 'real' reasons for suspecting and believing Tajo to be scum that are completely independent of cop investigation, etc. and the more I think about it, do I lynch the person who I am 'convinced' is scum or the person who I don't have any major suspicion on (it was PoE yesterday) but got a guilty result on that may be screwed up by Crazy lynch, scum power role controlling the result, etc.

There are various things about Farside's 'defense' and such that I don't like (whether guilty result is permanent, whether they are 'scum' upon lynch now as well, etc.) but... the only possible reason I could think of Crazy softclaiming his fakeclaim is to avoid being vigged (as to why they would choose him over Death miller, who knows) and it could be real that something happens on death.

...

ugh, i think i'm getting more confused. Didn't several people mention vigging on day 1 and how they should all target tajo? .... Crazy mentioned it later but someone else said something hrm.

...

Ok. I think Tajo should die first then Farside (baring anything substantial happening to change my opinion).

vote Tajo

.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

oh crossposting.

any rate, go read post #1000 area (and perhaps the 2 pages before then).

it basically was Electra or Mirth as the 'lynch for the day' and Farside did make comments (such as saying that Electra and Mirth were scumbuddies or something).

So yes, people did go after Mirth.

As for Farside-Tajo interaction and Farside-Crazy interaction.... nothing 'insane' really stands out to me and that worries me so i'd MUCH rather lynch Tajo now than Farside.

It was Farside-Tajo-Crazy due to Process of elimination and Farside... I don't remember anything obvious for them. Farside disbelieved Crazy 'quite' early and did several posts and such, and while I find everything else she has said and done 'suspicious' in terms of wording and such... I'd much rather bet this game on
lynching Tajo-scum than on Farside-scum.

[Corvuus]

I /facepalm every time when i wonder why you are still alive.

At any rate, since I'm likely to lynch you even if I did lynch Farside first, this doesn't really change "anything" except the order. The guilty result made me want to do Farside first, but if it wasn't for the guilty, I would have lynched you today Tajo and Farside potentially second.

So I'm going to stick with that.

Cor

[Corvuus]

Farside: is there a difference in 2 votes for Tajo and 2 votes for you? not much. There is however a big difference with putting you at 3 votes (L-1) and if I did that, I would prefer Kor to be here for input or to hammer. I do still think you are the most likely to be scum so continue to post on who you think is scum, etc.

Tajo: I simply do not believe or trust you Tajo. I'm perfectly willing to accept being wrong, and, as I said, I would rather bet the 'game' on you being scum than betting on farside being scum. I think both of you are scum, so it isn't much difference just the order.

As for what I think and believe. If you actually read my posts closely (or such from early day 1) almost everything I have thought and done has been anti-tajo one way or another. Whether it is your death miller claim, the situation with corporate, the millers, etc. I've always been against you and thinking that you are scum and that hasn't changed the whole game.

if you by some chance happen to be town, then I'll accept responsibility for the loss and heck, we could even talk about it post game and how it was COMPLETELY obvious i never stopped suspecting you throughout the whole game yet you never tried to convince me (convincingly) otherwise and instead your actions just continually made me think you are scum even more.

I also don't understand your sentence structure:

"I fail to see how you can lynch someone that from your perspective could be a dead miller rather than someone that has a guilty investigation from you!", etc.

I stated this before, and i guess I should say it again. I don't believe cop investigations as infalliable nor as the real power of the cops in this end game. It is our NK resistance that is the only 100% concrete real thing I can trust, with investigations either being skewed (due to sanity) or due to godfather or due to Crazy-thief-role stealer, or heck even a hidden scumability that somehow screws over farside.

Why should I bet the game on investigation when the game is skewed against investigation? If I ignored investigation completely, I would probably give Mirth and Kor a townie pass and maybe go after SC but SC (via interactions and response) just doesn't seem like scum to me now.

At any rate, I said it in previous posts and I guess I'll say it again. I always planned on lynching you Tajo, I'm just decided to do it 'now' and first before Farside.

if you think Farside is scum along with mirth, then you would have to argue against me eventually "anyways" so you might as well do it now.

Cor

[Corvuus]

Tajo: my point about Electra/farside is not a case on Farside but rather a 'mindgame/wifom' thought process on the ODDS of Mirth not ONLY being scum but ALSO being the godfather AND also then fakeclaiming doc.

Mirth scum would have had to be bussed since the people voting to get her to claim (Farside, Tajo, Crazy for sure voted, I didn't vote Mirth, and I would have to check for KK and Kor) and then Mirth scum (who you have to argue is godfather due to Kor's investigation) fakeclaimed Doc when a 'real' doc could exist and counterclaim and then you would lose Godfather role and for what gain? What tangible plan was involved? My point of mentioning post #1000 (and the 2 pages +- around it) is that I don't believe mirth is scum.

Re-reading farside is also interesting and while I don't like her answers and such in response to 'guilty' result and other circumstantial evidence, I'm not 100% willing to trust my "power role" not being screwed with and would rather trust that I think you (tajo) are scum.

I mean, for all I know, this "could" explain everything. Why was Shadowgirl killed and not another townie/mirth. Get cops to trust their results and leave the 'obvious' Farside (who hasn't been investigated yet) remaining who (as the day started you asked if we investigated her) cop(s) would target. Have another hidden power role who can screw cop results or a Crazy "death flip screws town" ability? who knows.

There are so many variables and 'unpredictable' things to happen with Farside's lynch, while I feel almost certain that you (tajo) are scum and I don't see why I should accept Farside as the lynch today (and 'hope' nothing screwy happens) when I can do your lynch today and look at farside more tomorrow?

Cor

[Corvuus]

Tajo: i am looking at the context and i said post#1000 ish or so for Mirth's doc claim.

I DID look at it and I believe it. (or at least that she isn't Godfather). Mirth is experienced (i played 1 game with her before and I have skimmed others) and I just don't see a Mirth Godfather scenario here.

So if Farside is scum to you, who is Farside's partner? Mirth? I don't buy/see the case on Mirth. So Farside and who? SC/KK?

---------

My power 'is skewed' but it has to work sometime yes, but I trust my previous results more (where scum didn't know i was cop) and when Crazy hasn't died spewing lies and such. Maybe the real reason Crazy wanted to vote 'no lynch' was because scum could misdirect cops etc. who knows. Either way, I'd rather go with what I feel more certain about than what I feel less certain about.

Corporate and SG are both terrible NKs and they don't make sense for a Farside-Mirth team if that is what you are asking. I mean, assuming Mirth is Godfather (and thus couldn't careless about cops), Farside (if normal scum) would worry about cops and so why kill the millers off when they represent wifom/mindgame/mislynch potential against cops.

As for the rest of what you said about it not making sense, you seem to fail to grasp that I say Farside and Tajo are scum, but I'd rather lynch Tajo today. I didn't say Farside wasn't scum, so don't bother with saying "with who" and "most probable" since I do think Farside is scum but I think you are scum 'even more'.

I mean, I stated that I was going to kill you 'tomorrow' after Farside several times, so why does it bother you now and not then?

Cor

[Corvuus]

yay crossposting:

Tajo, do you think it is equally likely (or what %) that Mirth or KK is Godfather?

since it is 'lynch or lose', would you be willing to vote to lynch Mirth or KK over Farside?

Cor

[Corvuus]

I just said why not. You haven't convinced me anything to the contrary and I said why I don't believe a Mirth-scum-Godfather claiming doc after being bussed/forced to claim by scum.

You say that there is a scummy link for Mirth that you see but no one else does, so why not tell us what this is?

-----

I don't know what scum are thinking as they are killing millers and doing other weird (in my opinion not-optimal) plays but I guess it isn't that hard to imagine since everyone who "could" be investigated had been except farside so why not?

----

Mirth-Farside scumpair are facing 2 NK resistant cops (i dont know why you say vanilla but godfather since that implies that Mirth isn't the godfather?) and then a death miller. Even if Shadowgirl was 'confirmed' to them, would she have been confirmed to everyone else? It was PoE and Farside-Shadowgirl's position was interchangable-ish at some points so I just don't see it.

----

Yes, I think Farside-Tajo scumpair is possible. It has been said (repeatedly) since yesterday so it is still possible today.

-----

Farside could be the last scum? I assumed we were all operating with the belief that there are 3 scum (2 now with Crazy dead) and I don't see how Farside being lynched today and flipping would have any affect on your imminent lynch as well.

So fine, since this will end up in a 'shouting match' between us, I will ask Mirth this question:

Mirth: Tajo and you seem to have played games together (or know each other). Tajo, to me, has 'buddied up' (or however you say it) with a large percentage of people (Shadowgirl, Crazy, etc.) is this normal to his play style?

Would tajo (as town) buddy up and defend Crazy (and Crazy defend him) etc.?

Or what kind of meta read do you have on him?

Cor

[Corvuus]

not too sure what else can be said or added right now.

As to buddying, I guess it is 'opinion' and not really fact but for me, I think there are different types of 'buddying' and such.

SC is a funny example of this, where he apparently likes to "buddy up to people" but he also FoS or "calls scummy" people who try to buddy up to him. kind of funny, but it is apparently just who he is.

I simply don't know enough about Tajo or Crazy to say either way.

My interpretation (or suspicion) of Tajo was in some part based on him (at least to me) buddying up to people (who he somehow 'knows' are town, or he says are town) and then asking them to make a case or elaborate their thoughts and then vote and lynch people based on what others say and not what he himself says.

I mean, there are at least 3 instances that I remember where Tajo asked someone else (Farside he asked, he asked someone else, and I don't know if I should count asking Mirth part) for who they thought were scum and then he would simply agree/comment and such. But maybe that is just his playstyle (since even when he went after SC for his 'confused chronology', he tried to get other people to say it or comment on it before he elaborated). I also dislike the 'blatant' buddying with the millers and clearing millers and such. The other millers never did that and heck, even their wording showed 'doubt' and questioning regarding Tajo at several points but Tajo "never" doubted them ever. SG questioned Tajo at least twice (that I recall, once during the tracker comment and once later on) and Corporate/Mana_ku had at least another comment like this but I still don't understand how all the 'normal' millers (proven via NK death) played such a HUGELY different game than Tajo. (This ties in to my comments in early days that Tajo didn't 'seem like a miller').

SG and Mana_ku were one end of the spectrum, while Tajo was different. Corporate threw me off (since his playstyle is... interesting) but I still don't understand Tajo. I could go on about the whole 'tajo trying to prove millers' such but i think i'm already convinced on it.

The issue with Crazy is whether or not Crazy (as scum which he "has to be") is the type to buddy up in a certain way.

I mean, Crazy blatantly said "well, all I'm doing is showing how that if I am scum, then so is tajo" (actually, if i remember, it might be "if tajo is scum, then so am I") when he talked about his 'death flip reveal' and such. He did go on about how tajo was 'most verified' to him via claim and 'flavor', he did post (when Sly brought up the whole lynch Tajo policy lynch) of exactly "why we shouldn't do it" in 'detail', etc. I don't remember Crazy buddying up to anyone else "Except" Tajo consistently throughout the game. If Crazy was town and it 'was' due to flavor similarity then, I guess I could consider it not a 'big scum tell', but Crazy "is" scum and it does have this big *???* on what Tajo and Crazy were doing/thinking/buddying together.

It could be argued that Crazy buddied to Tajo in order to get him lynched (as a 'mislynch') but Crazy would "never" flip scum so Crazy as "scum" trying to get someone mislynched by buddying up to them as a tactic doesn't make sense. It only revealed since it was 'lylo'.

So Crazy can't (or at least, shouldn't) be buddying up to a 'townie' in order to get them lynched, so buddy up to a townie either to get influence or votes? What was the influence and votes for?

At the beginning of the massclaim, I don't think there was a big wagon on anyone initially but it just came out (later) that Crazy's didn't seem to fit or make sense, and then the 'vote no lynch' possibility came up, along with the "buddying".

Let's assume 3 scum (Crazy being one of them) and trying to get "no lynch". 8 alive, need 5 votes for no lynch (assuming I understand no lynch rules).

SG, Tajo, Crazy, Mirth, SC, Kor, Cor, Farside.

Tajo and Crazy voted for no lynch. (need 3 more votes). Assuming Crazy is scum and Tajo is not, then the other 2 scum would only need 1 more townie to vote (technically if they wanted to force it but maybe skewed since maybe the 2 scum wouldn't want to do it). SC dislikes no lynch and voting deadline on principle (at least I remember him saying), Kor and Cor said no to voting no lynch (to various degrees), I don't remember what SG said about no lynch (but she is also dead so maybe I'll ignore) and that leaves Mirth and Farside for 'no lynch'. Both of them (from my recall) were against it and said so because either Crazy was scum, or they didn't believe Crazy's claim, etc.

If I read Farside's interactions, comments, and such (on Crazy, Tajo, etc.) and Tajo interaction and willing to axe Farside, I'm less inclined to think Farside is scum. I thought it was just 'playing it up/acting' and Farside by PoE and I do have a 'guilty' result now, but I'm still more willing to bet on Tajo being scum and then Farside 'tomorrow'.

If by insane random chance scum "do" have a godfather (obviously not Farside) and they are paired with Tajo, then it may be revealed tomorrow simply because "Crazy's death" may not be a permanent 'role' ownage.

I could say more but my post is already quite long and I will just sum with this.

Farside: if a cop(s) investigate you tomorrow and (or both since perhaps something weird is going on) gets a 'guilty' end result on you would you be ok with us lynching you tomorrow?

Corv

[Corvuus]

I just won't bow down to "oh he claimed miller/death miller 'first' so it has to be true".

Scum 'could' have inside information. Heck, Tajo himself claimed (at various points) that his PM directly mentions the presence of cops and that is why he believed Cor/Kor claims (although it isn't quite as simple as that) and he claimed that FL PM'ed him about something given to town to balance his 'wretched' role (which I have no reason to believe either way).

If we accepted everything the mod said (or hearsay) as being true, then what is given to town to balance death miller 'horrible/wretched' role? A rusty doc and 2 cops w/ NK resistance (and questionable sanity) is all we got. Add in that we think Crazy is anti-deathmiller or some kind of "thief RB scum thing" and where does it all fit in?

My other problem with the whole "claimed miller first" bit, is the fact that Tajo and such has mentioned it several times (along with other things) which just feels like it is trying to be forced down our throats.

I guess it bothers me simply because: Tajo claimed first, and tried to clear the millers first, believed the other millers first, etc. etc. 'first'.

So my other 'crazy/insane' comment is, what if (hypothetically) Tajo scum is a role that somehow screws over cop investigation or otherwise messes with 'cops' mentioned in his pm. Thus he knows Cops exist, thus he claims miller, and later adjusts it to Death miller.

I also don't understand the whole flavor and interaction with Crazy and the mod. It is probably too much speculation and such, but we voted to lynch Crazy and he was lynched and in the flavor Crazy "handed something back to the mod". This would lean me towards him being a thief scum as opposed to a anti-death miller type scum (who flips town on lynch) but I simply can't convince myself that FL wouldn't purposely screw us over by having that in the flavor even though Crazy may not be a thief. The other part which bothers me enough to be "ok" with lynching Farside tomorrow instead of today, is "items revealed upon death" show alignment and Crazy 'gave up an item' upon his death and he revealed Vanilla upon his lynch.

How do I know that Crazy isn't scum, gave up his "weapon" (thus flipping Townie upon lynch but we know he had to be scum) and then the weapon gets put on someone else (in this case Farside) and now they come up scum? Possible... maybe. Likely? Not really.

On the extremely remote chance that Farside isn't scum (and thus we have to have a godfather), I'd rather lynch Tajo today since maybe Crazy's item/screwing thing doesn't last more than a day, maybe it is permanent, maybe something else will happen.

At any rate, I don't think my position is going to change much. I'm up for lynching Tajo/Farside.

I don't see SC (KK now) as being a godfather (based on Kor's investigation) and such based on SC and interaction. I also could check to see who Crazy went after in his 'scum' groupings.

KK: Assuming Mirth "is" a godfather for a second, who would be her scumbuddy? Tajo?

Farside and Tajo (the two main suspects of scum right now) both went after Mirth at various points and did vote her to the point of her claiming doc, and Tajo and Crazy both were trying to lynch Mirth yesterday I think (at least before massclaims and such?) so it doesn't seem to fit with a 'scum group'.

I could imagine things being possible if there were 2 groups (or 1 group and a solo SK) but Mirth can't be a SK and a Godfather at the same time right?

Corv
P.S. Farside and Tajo both have hung out at 2 votes for a while now (only Kor hasn't checked in). 4 votes needed to lynch, and while we could argue that scum wouldn't want to 'quicklynch' it, it is lylo so technically they could. So certain scum pairings shouldn't be possible now (assuming that the targets aren't scum of course).

[Corvuus]

Well, I'm alright with what I am doing and thinking, and so I *block* slap?

Let me put it to you this way Kor.

Who do you suspect as being scum in addition to Farside?

If it is Tajo, then what is the problem?

We could end the day (done so quite a while ago as well) and then what would happen or we talk about tomorrow? I would basically go on the 'same' exact speel I am doing today as I would tomorrow, i.e. I think Tajo is scum and we would be right here as we are now.

if I wanted to lynch Farside "now" then I would have waited for you (obvious). But I want to exert pressure and try to figure out the lynches for the future (and today) so I am going after Tajo. I see nothing wrong with my 'approach' since I get Tajo and Farside responses today and we actually have something to talk about and the day isn't:

"Farside got guilty result. Ok. Lynch. End day".

Even if it IS right, why end the day so early? Especially when i said before, that I was hoping (i doubt it now) to try to find scumbuddying, etc. etc.

So if you think someone OTHER than Tajo is scum, then bring up your points and discuss. if you think it is Farside-Tajo, then we would be doing this tomorrow 'anyways' so whats the difference?

------

I mistyped. I meant Cor instead of Kor.

----

Corv

[Corvuus]

I could make a long post on various things and such... like why I am doing what I am doing, what I think is going on, and various other things about night actions and such and how, if scum are 'really stupid' town automatically wins tomorrow but it is fairly academic at this point and I don't think people really want to hear it and it would just be me talking.

I do think it is interesting Kor that you say, "who said anything about ending the day early" and "why lynch Tajo on "no evidence" when we have farside as today's lynch" when there pretty much isn't much else to talk about regarding farside's lynch so we might as well talk about 'other scum'.

But fine, i'll take the Kor/KK comments as "asking me to step down and not be crazy" and I'll vote Farside and end the day and see what tomorrow brings.

There are various things I can surmise for your intentions Kor but in the end, it all comes down to you believing Tajo's claim while I do not. Since the greatest chance of town winning is with the cops being on the 'same page', I think one of us should compromise and in this case, it looks like it should be me.

Unless anyone has anything else they want to contribute to this day, I'll be voting farside relatively soon.

Unvote

Corv

[Corvuus]

it isn't a matter of making you look like the bad guy Kor.

Seriously, you state:

"no one says end the day early/quickly"

yet, voting and lynching farside is basically ending the day quickly/now, etc.
which is basically what is going to occur.

I don't see why you say i am "disregarding" my guilty. My scumteam is still tajo/Farside and it has always been tajo/farside. I'm just willing to do tajo first.

I got a guilty on farside, we talked "a little" about it (seriously, 5 posts or so from each person?) and then farside was going to be lynched. No one else is talking about anything so why not?

but at this point, I see no reason for further discussion since all the things I could say may end up just making this 'worse'.

You want farside today, tajo (or maybe not even tajo) tomorrow. I don't see how, etc. to convince you otherwise so that is pretty much end of the discussion.

So we might as well get this over with. I'm voting farside by the end of today, pst time.

Any final words, etc. get in because I expect him to be hammered shortly after I vote.

Corv

[Corvuus]

vote farside

[Corvuus]

i guess self-voting (and such) is admission of guilt.

Let's hope scum make it easy and town can auto-win.

C

[Corvuus]

I investigated Kor. Got innocent.

Mirth, Kor, who did you target?

Either mirth doc protected or a cop was targeted.

either way,

vote tajo

I could give reasons, again, and such, but at this point, i'm tired of talking, people are tired of listening to me and it amounts to that we get a 'free' lynch today since it isn't lylo and thus tajo should be exterminated.

if the game doesn't end, then we can worry about godfather, and 'presumably' one of the cops would die but it still gives town a good shot at winning.

Corv

[Corvuus]

The only part I believe from Farside's last words is that Farside wanted to kill a cop but the other scum said no.

What is the easiest explanation for this? Targeting a cop yesterday would have lost lylo advantage and, if that had occurred then as it is now, I would have accepted nothing less than Tajo's lynch to remove the 'wifom/mindgame' etc. while we could do it.

Doing NKs to continue lylo and targeting the miller (of all people, bleh) just makes me believe that it is tajo even more.

I could go on and on about why I think tajo is scum, but apparently it seems that Tajo *is* the lynch for the day and everyone else is going to spend time talking about 'who else' hypothetical scum.... which is ironic since I was in that position yesterday and now the positions are swapped and i'd like to end the day already.
-----

As for Farside, i don't know how much there is in a re-read.

Farside voted both Crazy and Tajo. We know Crazy and Farside are scum so what is there to say about Tajo except mindgame? Farside's list (that I remember) was that it was Crazy/Mirth together (back then) and then also SC.

I do find it interesting that Farside did push a bit on Crazy lying/fakeclaiming and such, and did push on tajo for buddying/defending Crazy and such, but apparently Farside was just busing Crazy to be cleared themselves and then guilty result ended their chance at 'hiding' in the crowd.

My only conclusion is that scum believed (or considered) that there may be a SK and were playing according to that.

Either way, I don't know what else to say or talk about except why haven't we lynched Tajo yet.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Tajo:

the fact that Crazy and farside both said they are town, the game will end, etc. etc. if they are lynched and that they were lying through their teeth mean i simply don't care.

but if it matters to you.

I think Mirth is more likely to be godfather than KK so if it comes down to them, I would actually be more inclined to vote Mirth due to SC's comments and interactions when we discussed it.

but still, you will die today.

Corv

[Corvuus]

To clarify since my response was short:

Back during the massclaim, my scumteam was

Crazy, Tajo and Farside.

Crazy and Farside both are scum (crazy by inference, Farside by flip) and if the last scum is tajo, then basically the game was lost by scum when the massclaimed happened, Crazy got lynched and SG was nightkilled.

Farside was almost certainly guaranteed to be targeted by cops (which tajo asked immediately upon yesterday day start) and the question is why SG (or heck even Corporate). I think scum would have been better off trying to target cops instead of SG and the only reason I can think of targeting SG is

1. unlikely that mirth would protect SG and scum *wanted* a nightkill for sure.

2. if they wanted a nightkill for *sure* then why not Mirth doc? May have felt Mirth was easier to 'frame' or throw mud against while SG was more townie looking or they wanted SG's miller flip.

Either way, the only optimal reason for scum to NOT target a cop in previous days (and thus waste nightkill) is that Tajo would have been lynched basically instantly since the 'conditions' of Tajo's automatic lynch (discussed throughout previous days) would have been satisfied.

i.e. lynch Tajo 'prior' to lylo etc. etc. Crazy posted on this quite detailed.

Farside never buddied with anyone and went after pretty much everyone (tajo for crazy relation, Mirth previously for doc claim, etc.; SC for his 'chronological mishap.) so if you guys think of anything with that, i will be interested/surprised.

------------------------------------------

If anyone really thinks I am scum, then come out and say it.

You may disagree with how I think, do things, interpret, etc. but in the end, I am a nk resistant cop (sane), got a guilty on farside (for sure scum by flip; if you really think I am mindgaming that somehow as scum then let me know. I went after Crazy a fair amount and such so either I am what I say I am (my claim, flavor, actions) or I'm some kind of weird unusual scum whose just randomly trolling through this game.

i.e. you can hate me/dislike me, etc. but i will be lynching Tajo today and I don't see any reason, discussion etc. for why this shouldn't be so and who else to look at instead.

----------------------

As for the godfather discussion, i think the important part to consider is when a godfather was first even MENTIONED. This occurred after the massclaim and I said i investigated SC and got innocent. (kor then counterclaimed, discussion, etc.) around post #1100-1150 area.

I mentioned a role 'immune' to investigation might exist (to balance against cops), Kor said Godfather discussion shouldnt happen when at lylo and Tajo said Mirth was Godfather. SC also had something to say about it after this and I concluded from SC's comments, timing, interaction, etc. that he wasn't likely to be a godfather himself (or I will bow to his acting). I'd have to re-read this whole area to see if Farside or Crazy ever said anything about Godfather but I believe Crazy never did (just doing no lynch and defending his 'claim') while Farside I think did mention Godfather possibility on Mirth/SC at least once.

So I don't know what else you guys want to talk about, re-read, discuss, etc. I mentioned previously that I could imagine Mirth as a SK ( SK with godfather innocent reveal?) but there was no reason to suspect that this game is anything more difficult than:

Crazy-Tajo-Farside scum team and that the game will end today with Tajo's lynch.

If, by some fluke of chance, it isn't tajo, Kor dies and it is Mirth, Me and KK; then I'd probably vote Mirth and believe KK but, of course, I wouldn't vote instantly for quicklynch. I simply think Mirth would have a higher chance of being godfather and being able to pull "all of this" off then SC would and SC's own words and actions seem inconsistent with himself being a godfather.

This will probably be my last 'long' post of the game. If you guys want to talk for another 3 weeks, then go ahead, I don't think there is anything left to say. I just think that scum should have seen this 'endgame' coming during the massclaim and Crazy lynch and they simply didn't move fast enough (tempo) and 'smart' enough to stop this from eventually playing out.

in the end, I think everyone should FoS/vote for Tajo simply because it *is* what needs to happen today and also for Tajo-Crazy interaction and heck, Crazy was most likely a godfather/flip town role (and not thief) so Tajo saying wait and investigate Crazy later (and presumably get innocent on Crazy and since Crazy isn't scum thief, no cop would die making this game even more difficult) is even more suspicious.

If you think you can find a earth-shattering reason why someone else is *more* suspicious than Tajo, then go for it.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

really Kor?

I guess i'm so convinced that I'm so overwhelmingly town that I simply couldn't careless if I do anything controversial/scummy or other.

So if your entire reason for me being scum is simply because I said I got a guilty on farside (and explained why I targetted farside, etc. in detail) and then your reasoning is that I, as scum, somehow wanted to back track, does that make sense to you?

Why wouldn't i just say I got an innocent on farside or say I got a guilty on tajo (death miller) or otherwise give town "no information".

I have never lied about any of my investigations, targets, results, etc.

As for why I, as scum, would say guilty on farside, and then somehow 'magically' think that I was being stupid I shouldn't bus my buddy like that, it is kind of silly. If anything, my 'aggressiveness' has been consistent throughout all the days where when we were lynching Crazy, I was already outlined my 3 (crazy, tajo, Farside) pushing for Crazy and Tajo (Farside by PoE) and I even investigated Farside because I was worried about Crazy scum thief potential, etc.

As for me not having any support, Mirth, I and Tajo himself want to lynch Tajo today. That is 3/5, majority. You guys just want to talk about it longer and what is there to talk about?

I wanted to talk about Tajo and such yesterday but you guys just wanted to lynch based on my guilty (which you did and farside was guilty) and now you are telling me you don't believe my guilty or think I am lying? It is quite amusing.

Basically you are telling me that the optimum move for me to make, in your ideal world of me being town, is to say "guilty on farside" and then simply shut up. We would lynch Farside and still be where we are at today.

I see no difference in what I did and what is happening. In fact, once this game ends and we can find out exactly what happened and what roles were available, then I could tell you a lot about what I exactly think regarding this game and how, despite everything, my inane walls of posts actually helped and contributed a lot (once we know what scum thought).

I'll just say this: According to my role PM I was actually 100% convinced that I was sane but I brought up the possibility of my role being screwed, unknown, or otherwise 'questionable' simply because I view my NK resistance in the endgame as more powerful.

As long as scum didn't believe that the cops were 'sane'/insane respectively (which I figured since we were a type of mirrors) then we would make it to the end game and town would have a better chance at winning.

I could go on and on about why I did what I did, but I'll just leave the rest for post game analysis for everything I did.

If you somehow think that Farside's "cop" remark is a slip, then if anything, it would refer to *you* since Farside believed my cop role more than yours and farside as scum wouldn't know which or who is the cop and maybe thought one of us was lying.

If you are going to base it on "nk resistance" flavor, then simply ask yourself do you believe that scum would know

1. that there is a cop (possible since tajo and millers claim cop in their role)
To prevent thus, cops were given a "nk resistance" in order to prevent scum from easily claiming cop, forcing the other cops to claim and causing confusion since there would be TWO cops both with a NK resistance and could verify each other.

2. That I would claim NK resistance FIRST before you and that I would somehow know this, etc. etc.

3. Then if you can somehow imagine that I am scum with insider information from FL, then I would in addition have to fakeclaim the other aspect of my role (insanity in words, change based on day similar to vote description change).

So seriously, at this point, I feel that a claim of me being scum is simply "insane". If you think I am somehow omniscient/foresighted enough to plan and work this "all" out from day 1 (my rhyme, etc.) and then follow that up with a 'fake claim' and then follow that with "busing" Crazy and Farside... well, I could go on and such but in addition to all of the above, you have a investigation on me that says guilty (reversed to innocent by insane) and thus I would also have to be a godfather as well.

---------

I could address more points but I think that is fine.

---

Tajo: I think Mirth more likely to be godfather than KK. Thats it. I don't see what else there is to talk about it. I have already reread a great deal and have my own opinions on it, so unless you have something to add, I don't know what else to say.

[Corvuus]

i don't understand you guys at all but maybe that is just because i'm annoyed that it is essential hypocritical what has just been said by Tajo and Kor.

Yesterday: I discussed Farside, the slip of farside saying that upon Farside lynch they will flip scum, etc. etc. is what I produced through my questionings. No one else really said or did much.

I got enough out of my guilty result that i was satisfied and wanted to talk about someone else. I did that. People didn't like that. Said Farside was the lynch for the day. Fine.

Today: Tajo is the obvious lynch for the day. I'm just following what you guys were clearly saying and doing yesterday which is now the obvious course of action for today. You didn't want to talk about anyone other than Farside yesterday, fine. Even though there was another scum to talk about. Today, there should be *only* one scum remaining among us. There is no reason to talk about anyone else if we expect the game to end when we lynch scum who I think is tajo.

Me wanting to apply your 'logic' in just lynching Tajo and ending the day makes more sense than you guys not wanting to talk about anything other than Farside yesterday and I just don't see how you (kor, tajo) can pull this off yesterday and yet when I say it, you guys say that it isn't ok.

--------------

I also don't see why it is *my* responsibility to make a case on anyone other than tajo. All you (kor, Tajo) have done is ask *me* to do work and talk about who else, etc. etc. when I have said that it simply isn't my job or concern. I think Tajo is it. What else should I do? I even humored you guys be talking about if it isn't tajo as the final scum and you guys still talk nonsense.

If you guys are so concerned about what happens *after* tajo and if Tajo isn't scum, then you guys need to generate the case, the evidence, etc. I simply see no reason to indulge or humor you.

Why care so much about what I think and asking me to make a case, etc. (when i have stated my opinion on Mirth/KK and said why) and then keep asking me for more? Why don't you state why you think Mirth or KK is a godfather. I told you why I don't thinK SC/KK is a godfather and, if there is a godfather in this game, I would probably go with Mirth simply by process of elimination. I have cited posts numbers and such and probably contributed more to this whole 'godfather' theory/what if tajo isn't scum possibility more than either of you (Tajo or Kor).

I've already re-read the posts where the mass claims were made and a godfather possibility was first mentioned. Kor and I were the ones to bring it up first (or use the 'godfather word'). If there is a godfather in this game, I would expect various interaction, interpretation, discussion and so forth on it. SC and Mirth were the only two who, at any point in this game were seriously mentioned as possibly being a "godfather". As such, I read what SC and Mirth both had to say about godfather, possibility etc.

I shared that I think SC (based on my read on him, etc.) is not very likely to be a godfather. I have had a few games with SC and I can kind of understand his own internal consistency and it just doesn't follow that his actions are as a scum, a godfather, and allied with crazy/farside and consistent with SC's own... lack of logic in a sense.

As for Mirth, I know she is smart, resourceful, etc. so I *could* believe that she is a godfather and her interaction and playoff with Crazy and Farside as being extremely well done. So i've humored you both. I think Tajo is scum so that the game will end. You guys want to talk about something else, so I said, if Kor dies, Mirth, Me and KK are left, then that means one of them *has* to be a godfather and I would hazard that Mirth was the godfather and not KK. I'm not saying i think right *now* that Mirth is the godfather. I'm saying that if I am presented with irrefutable evidence that there *has* to be a godfather then I would consider Mirth more.

I see no reason for me personally to continue on the possibility of Mirth being a godfather since, 1. I think it is Tajo, 2. It is all useless and pointless wifom (worse than farside-tajo yesterday) where there is no possibility of anyone but Tajo being lynched today and if it is tajo, then the game ends and all of this discussion is pointless. My attempt at discussion was *not* pointless since there were most likely two scum (farside/Tajo) and I was ok with going after either. Now there is only one scum and you are asking me to go after tajo (who I think is scum) and someone else (mirth or KK) and basically asking me to make a case on someone who i think is townie until otherwise.

I could go on but frankly, I've talked and shared more *this* day than either of you (tajo or Kor) so it is amusing that you keep asking me to say more, not be close minded, etc. etc. when I don't see that as the case. I read what you had to say, you didn't convince me at *all* and I'm alright with where I am at.

I don't believe Kor is scum no matter what. I believe Tajo is scum. If tajo and Kor both die and the game doesn't end, then there has to be a godfather (I gave the post numbers for when godfather discussion was first brought up etc. and re-read) and it has to be either Mirth or KK. I've already made my informed decision even if it is informed without considering what either of you two have to say.

If you wish to somehow change my mind, then the burden and work load is on *you*. Not me. I've already been 'transparent' and stated my thoughts, reasonings, my vote and what I want and expect to see happen. You can hate it but i've always been playing 'for the long term end game' and trying to figure everything out since the massclaim (why I pushed crazy-tajo-farside PoE in order to get reactions, etc.). I believed town had the game in the bag then (and I still do) and that we are now progressing to the inevitable conclusion which is Tajo's lynch.

----

So perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm crazy and you guys are both reasonable and i'm the one being the hypocrite. Maybe, maybe not. It is an insane asylum after all, so certain allowances should be made.

Either way, I am done talking. I've already stated my position and viewpoint several times and both of you just keep asking me to 'share more', consider more, think more and I'm done and going to "pass the buck" to someone else to talk. If you think there is a godfather, then prove it, show who, why, etc. Otherwise, the only one left without an innocent result is tajo and he is the obvious lynch for the day (that is why I targeted Kor, just to make sure we all have innocents except Tajo).

That then proves the survivors are all ones who get 'innocent' results and thus there must be a godfather. Then work from there.

I see no reason to believe there has to be a godfather when Crazy was most likely a godfather who flips town type and for scum to have *another* godfather on top of that? 2 scum completely immune to cop investigation, and one who flips town?

I've stated so much on godfather Mirth possibility and Godfather KK possibility that I seriously don't know what else you guys want from me. If tajo or Kor's next post is "you didn't say why or didn't post why" then I will tell you to simply re-read my posts and that you guys have 'zero' memory for today and yesterday. I've already talked about everything.

So if you want 3 more weeks of discussion, then go ahead. I've re-read, considered and thought about it and I don't see anything that points to KK or Mirth being scum and godfather so I see no reason to indulge this further but just have tajo lynched and, most likely, end this farce.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Tajo, Kor: you don't see the hypocrisy in what happened yesterday after I said it, then fine. Just move on and make your case on Mirth or KK as godfather.

Kor: I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. You guys said lynch farside, talk nothing else. Don't mince words and intentions. If you can seriously tell me that you would have said ANYTHING about anyone else than Farside without lynching farside, then you can claim i falsely accused you. Instead, you guys were going to lynch farside without talking about anything except farside which equals lynching and ending the day with farside lynch and no clear buddying information and that is what happened. Don't rewrite posting history. I did most of the work in getting the guilty result on Farside, throwing doubt on my statement on purpose to see what farside would say (farside slip with saying "I will flip scum" when it should normally just be investigate as scum) precisely because I said I *could* still be 50-50 (which is pretty crazy of a concept) and that and other bits of farside's defense convinced me that farside was scum. I could have ended the day there and apparently you would be happy and satisfied but I wanted to find a buddy scum (as I clearly stated so that you would be on board with me, ref. my post on solo versus group scum), so I went through trying to see if (in case there is a godfather) someone would say something about tajo-town (hypothetical) or if anyone would try anything to save/help farside or adjust things and try to win the game by lynching tajo instead of farside etc. etc. I felt even more convinced that farside was scum when I asked (and no one said anything) that if i got a guilty on her again would she be willing to be lynched, etc. etc. Farside was voting Tajo. I vote Tajo, would the other scum (if not tajo) do anything? If scum is tajo, then how would tajo react? I have been considering the possibility of godfather and whether tajo is telling the truth about DM or not the *whole time*. I also didn't like how Tajo tried to 'falsely' conclude that I somehow magically didn't think Farside wasn't scum anymore when I said, quite clearly, that I want tajo/farside lynched and I'm willing to flip the order. It is 'bait' for your hypothetical godfather scum and a point of discussion for us to talk about further but I took the comments of yesterday to be that the plan wasn't going to work so I have to lynch Farside. KK said it was pointless (so if he is godfather scum he wasn't going to do anything for farside) and Mirth said the neutral "tajo or farside, i think both are scum" (which I interpret as being plausible said by mirth town or mirth scum).

At any rate Kor, your comments yesterday was to me clearly a 'vote of no confidence' in how I was handling farside and 'other scum' situation, and you can say I falsely accuse you as much as you want but in the end, I have my approach, you have yours. You chose to ignore mine (or at least, not consider that I may possibly have method to my insanity and that I *do* believe my guilty result and that farside is scum) and so we went with lynching Farside the 'easy/safe' lynch because at that point the 'final' scum wasn't going to budge over anything so might as well end the day, hope scum screw up (scum would have instantly loss if they didn't target a cop) and if they don't, then we gain tempo, lynch Tajo, and if the game still doesn't end then worry about godfather which we would have proven to exist. In my analysis, I considered that I may not survive until the end of the game (if tajo is not scum) but I still figured town has extremely high chance of winning so it was all an acceptable compromise.

Now, we come to today and you want me to find a godfather based on buddying, interaction, or some other 'reason' and basically asking me to not lynch Tajo but find this godfather scum and guess what, it is a 'solo-scum' now and quite simply it isn't going to be as easy as when Farside-scum was around. Farside didn't buddy to anyone, Crazy buddied with tajo and *only* tajo (to the point of saying If i am scum so is he) and so the only chance of catching a hypothetical farside-scum buddy was to say "no to farside's" lynch and see where that lead (tajo being either scum or suitably scapegoat) but that wasn't allowed to happen and so I *did compromise* as i said yesterday.

Farside was lynched. Kor got shot at, Tajo will be today's lynch, and you may or may not die tonight Kor (maybe Mirth really is a doc!). If the situation was reversed and i was shot at, then i would still lynch Tajo today, die tonight if tajo wasn't scum, and then you Kor would be left with KK and Mirth.

If both you (tajo, Kor) can't accept this and want to find 'hypothetical godfather' scum today, then go ahead and try. I see no reason why (of course, I am assuming optimal scum) a godfather scum would slip up today without having slipped up at all with Crazy or Farside (since SC/KK and Mirth both don't have strong scummy/buddy ties with either of them) and they didn't try to change the course laid out for town back in the massclaim/set out with Crazy's lynch since both Mirth and SC were for lynching Crazy, not agreeing with 'no lynch', comments on farside, etc. etc.

If you think you can help, then by all means, *help*. Post something. Point out something. If Tajo is death miller and this goes until tomorrow, I'll most likely lynch mirth since I think she is the only one who could pull this off and SC/KK is not as likely of a godfather and such. If you agree with my choice (mirth in this case) then end the day by lynching Tajo. if you disagree, then post why you think SC/KK is more likely godfather than Mirth. I've already said (in previous posts) why I didn't think it is likely that either of them were godfather (and why I want tajo lynched) so feel free to go from there.

Either way, I will not lynch anyone but Tajo today, but feel free to make your case on who may be godfather tomorrow if the game doesn't end.

-------------------------------

As for you tajo: You will be no means ever receive an apology from me even if you are a death miller/townie, etc.. I accept full responsibility for everything I say and do. if you are a death miller, then I'll claim full responsibility for having been after you *all* game and trying to get you lynched. I'm fine with that. I won't make excuses.

I would point out, whether in post game discussion or whatever, that I find several of your actions highly non-optimal and irregular for a death miller town role. it can just be distinction in how we view roles, optimization, etc. but my belief and point will all boil down to this:

A death miller should do his best to get nightkilled and not survive until lylo. My suspicion and such of you may have contributed to you not getting nightkilled compared to the other millers and I should take responsibility for that, but I still think you could have played 'more townie' or at least sufficiently so that I don't constantly feel that you are scum.

If you are a death miller (or heck not even death miller but simply town aligned) then I would congratulate you on probably being responsible for getting the millers nightkilled (by perhaps verifying them enough that scum were worried about them as being confirmed townies) and thus allowing cops to break the game with no millers around, and so you do deserve credit for getting scum to do that.

---

I've restated and restated my position and view of this game several times now, and hopefully I won't have to do it again.

Corv
P.S. Another reason i forgot to include but I do consider a scum mark against tajo is that when I expressed doubt on Farside being scum and began to prepare to vote tajo, farside did move her vote from Tajo to Mirth. (farside's post#168 and Farside gave a incorrect vote count in farside post #178) This could be because Tajo is scum and a Tajo lynch would be followed by a guaranteed farside lynch (since I stated that if i got another guilty on farside, then farside would be tomorrow's lynch) and scum would lose the game, thus farside switched from tajo to mirth. I'd have to double check the chronological order, but it struck me as weird and a possible 'last minute' play by farside scum to win the game. Of course, it could just be mindgaming me to think that it "isn't" Mirth if she does happen to be the godfather, but i'm happier with the much more simple and easy answer which is that *it is tajo*.
P.P.S. Kor, if you are arguing that if we continued the day longer that farside may have 'eventually' betrayed her final scum partner, that is a possibility but after voting tajo and then Mirth; and with my vote hanging on tajo; I doubted Farside would have done much more with me 'losing the support' of town and especially of my 'buddy cop'. Even if tajo-scum or godfather-scum believed i was full of it and BSing, they couldn't post to stop farside-scum from believing that I had control of town (which is where I thought I had her) and if Farside thought she could convince me, and that I then maybe could convince Kor (2 cops and 2 scum vote Mirth) and then hand scum the win. If Farside kept her vote on Tajo, then I'd be more inclined to a godfather theory but the fact that she changed her vote to Mirth, harped on the godfather theory more, and tried to misrepresent the vote, makes me think there is no godfather, she tried to win as scum with tajo. If tajo flips death miller, then we'll see from there.

I could go on and on, but in the end, all results point to tajo dying today.

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

i forgot to address point #5 of tajo's.

If your entire position on godfather existence and case is to pressure Mirth and SC/KK to duke it out for the privilege of calling the other one a godfather, then I want you lynched already.

Make a case on one of them. Otherwise, I see no pressure on them to perform as you desire.

[Corvuus]

i don't think anyone doubted that farside was scum after her defense of her guilty result and flip. the only thing we know now is what type of scum (goon) and possible setup speculation based on balancing and so forth but even that is just mod discussion/speculation.

Maybe I do overthink things, but Farside was 'a guilty' on a 'fishing rod'. Farside was going to 'self-lynch'/quit and vote herself quite early (thus ending the day early for us anyways, and not give any useful info at all) so saying that I want to hear what farside has to say, letting her vote and try to make her case (on mirth-godfather) is interesting simply because I need to be 'stupid/wishy-washy/disbelieve my guilty result' (which i clearly stated I would do and why I would do it) so that farside would react and we would see how scum did. If Kor had waited, let farside continue, maybe scum (tajo or other) would also make a push on Mirth. Maybe farside would try more to convince me or make other slips. There were possibilities yesterday, but today, there is only one scum. it makes less sense to talk about Mirth or KK godfather since it is possible that it is tajo and there simply is no godfather at all.

Is there any evidence that there has to be one? That is why I brought up when godfather was first mentioned (by me and Kor) and how people reacted to it. I have my own opinions on what people said and would do (for example, I think if tajo pushed godfather more, it would make him scummier since godfather pushing (which he did at lylo which kor didn't like) is trying to prevent town from having 'confirmed' players SC and Mirth. It was Kor and Cor rejecting godfather speculation that led to Crazy-Farside-Tajo process of elimination and Crazy-Farside has been proven correct (go town). It was tajo pushing... so many various things like godfather existence (mirth, not SC at the time), no lynch, etc. that has me believing that this is the end with tajo lynch. There are so many things that Tajo has done that I consider him scum without even using the death miller claim against him and apparently the DM claim is the only reason why Tajo "may" not be scum, and that is just really silly.

As for emotional, yeah, probably. I don't think Kor is scummy or anything but confirmed cop. But I think it is silly that Kor actually would say I am scum (godfather) after everything and not consider what I was doing yesterday at all except that (from his stated Point of View) I was 'ignoring' my guilty result and being scummy with it. That just shows me he didn't read what I wrote (when I said i would do this) but read what Tajo wrote (which, of course once again is misleading) in that I somehow decided Farside wasn't scum.

At any rate, I don't think KK or Mirth are godfather, so what is there to say about them? All of the arguments for talking about this today seem quite silly to me since one of tajo's arguments is that 'we didn't know farside flip yet' and i could say, 'we don't know tajo flip yet'. We don't know there is a godfather and the fact that the one pushing godfather is the one whose always pushed godfather (Tajo) doesn't seem to bug anyone. The fact that Crazy-Tajo are linked so much, that Tajo has pursued various things, etc. etc. doesn't seem to strike anyone as, hey, he actually may be the final scum? Tajo has tried to verify his DM role all game (with the other millers, even though it wouldn't work that way), used his role, Crazy and Tajo tried to 'verify' each other due to flavor wording on flipping items upon death, etc. etc. and the only possibly argument I could imagine for tajo not be scum but town is that he claimed "first" compared to all the other millers. That's it. Can anyone else name a 'big pro-town' feeling or reason from Tajo other than his 'early' claim? What about Farside and Crazy, throughout the game saying that they believed Tajo's claim *more* than all the other millers? Crazy due to flavor, Farside for various reasons but essentially since tajo claimed first. Both Crazy and Farside are scum.

Tajo should be lynched today no matter what, and there simply isn't a point to talking about Mirth or SC/KK scumminess until Tajo is gone. Re-read Mirth. I don't find scum linkage (with the proven scum) the only thing that bothers me is Mirth surviving all the way until the end end endgame and that she was claimed doc while doing this. Otherwise, she has been on board for the Crazy-Farside lynches, discussed, etc.

Re-read SC/KK. SC is, admittedly, scummy just by nature. The way he states things, words things, and his explanations (chronological fun) just make him an easy target. A target that Tajo-Crazy-Farside did go after!! My 'sane' innocent cleared him for a while but then godfather possibility was brought up (kor,Cor) but has never been "pushed" for by Kor/Cor but instead by Tajo, Farside. I wondered about this for a bit since apparently scum pushed godfather more than town did (i don't remember SC or Mirth saying each other were godfather once Crazy was the lynch of the day, and Farside soon after. Mirth definitely Tajo/farside. I think KK did with Mirth-Farside-Crazy view but even then...hm).

I could go on (and on and on) but there are so many reasons to think Tajo is it and that there is no godfather (since scum are the ones who mainly pushed for existence of godfather) and there are reasons for why Mirth and SC/KK shouldn't be godfather, or allied with Farside/Crazy and neither of you (mirth or KK) can prove that the other is a godfather to me. One, because tajo is still alive. Two, there is every reason for tajo being scum and no godfather existing.

On a sidenote: Mirth, what is your response to KK?

Corv

[Corvuus]

eh, as far as reactions go, Mirth, you are pretty much what I expected. I only asked for a response to see if you would go after KK or not.

if you were godfather scum (i said earlier i would lynch you if tajo wasn't it, more to see if you would respond or not.) then your response may be different. it would be based on whether you are a cool customer and not phased by anything, which most likely you are or you could just happen to be a rusty doc playing in an insane asylum.

------------------------

At any rate, I guess I'll "stay out of this". I just think it is kind of silly that you have stated that Mirth is the Godfather for virtually the whole game, I state that I will lynch Mirth if the game doesn't end and there is a tomorrow (and I give reasons why), and yet you still think or 'want' to help me make the right decision.... the right decision being Mirth (and you say you need to re-read/find evidence now?)? Most of your case on Mirth (from what I remember) has been Mirth existing/surviving or making a case on you (tajo). I don't see how that makes her a godfather (which I stated a while ago doesn't make sense) and farside "busing" her and then Mirth 'fakeclaiming doc' (when she is godfather? and could be counterclaimed?).

But I guess we will just wait until friday, and heck even deadline if that is what you guys want.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ace attorney? I thought tajo said that a "long" time ago so I wasn't currently thinking of that particular phrasing.

I think Tajo went after you (mirth) more as godfather than he did SC. His statements regarding SC (that i remember) were that when I had claimed, he believed my claim since I gave a free 'innocent' result on SC and scum wouldn't do that (I thought that was weird, but SC-tajo can't be scumpair so oh well) and he kind of left SC alone until the 'chronological mishap" which Tajo-Farside pointed out and worked on SC a bit for. SC admitted to being... illogical/confused and I don't remember anything big being said about SC from Tajo aside from that he 'could' be a godfather around that point.

I could talk more about it and my impressions but it would all be "tajo is scum" so I guess i will just leave it at that.

On a sidenote: how you played this game fits my impression of you from our other ended 'newbie' game, so is it different than ace attorney? (if you don't have time, don't worry about it/respond).

Corv

[Corvuus]

crosspost:

I evaluate the possibility of being wrong. But I will admit that i have been accused several times (by Sensfan and others) that I dont consider or admit the possibility of being wrong.

I think it is untrue since I give a fair amount of thought into what is 'right' or 'wrong' and what could happen if I am wrong and how to proceed from there. The very fact that I have tried to think of ways to find a godfather (whether you believe it or not, I did. You could say Farside 'played' me or I played her, either way, scum can't talk during the day so Farside-scum may have caused other scum to freak out, wonder if he/she should move, vote, stay still, play it cool, etc. and we may have found out when Farside voted Mirth, misrepresented the vote, what scumbuddy may have said or done about that then, etc.) is kind of a 'small' proof that I am not 100% fixated on you being scum. I've done or tried things to consider you may not be scum, and I have read and considered responses and it is after all of that, that I consider you to be scum.

So as i said, I'll accept responsibility for your lynch and whatever else you like. If town does end up losing tomorrow then I'll accept responsibility for that as well, but i will have tried my best. But to say I never thought I was wrong, never considered, never 'thought' about anything or the possibilities... I think that is just not true. Maybe I am hubris or blind to it for myself, but I thought I did give you a fair chance to convince me and it simply never happened.

But hey, no more long posts from me. We can talk all we like in post-game analysis. I won't say anything else about you tajo and you can proceed with your godfather theory.

Cor

[Corvuus]

another crossposting .

I could say 'muahhahaha, you ask me to ignore you and now you are not happy that I ignore you (even though it was crossposting and I didn't ignore you)' but I guess I'll just leave it at that.

[Corvuus]

I think your quote of KK is just a quote of yourself. I do think KK said something 'close' to that though so it isn't that big of a deal.

I don't understand the mindgame/wifom since in the end, assuming you are right and death miller tajo, all that really matters is how *I* (the confirmed cop) think and not Mirth or KK.

It is mindgaming, but basically, only scum would know that you are a mislynch Tajo and so only scum would try to prepare for tomorrow since they know tomorrow is 'coming'.

If Mirth gave into this and made a case on SC/KK, then I actually would have considered her *more likely* to be scum and I have been paying attention to her. She didn't (proving she either knows how to play me or understands me, or that she can tell the way the game is moving and follow the flow, or heck, she could be a doctor!) while KK *did*.

KK expects tajo as today's lynch (he said as much) but also that Mirth is scummy or godfather. That strikes me as out of place since he (ignoring tajo and Kor is confirmed) is the only one to push this 'godfather' discussion of what happens on a theoretical tomorrow.

Even if you dislike my walls of post, and my actions/intentions Tajo, everything still ends up being a test. I stated what i thought about Godfather, who I thought, which way I would vote to see what people would say about a theoretical tomorrow since, of course, if there is a scum godfather and it ends up being Corv, KK and Mirth with Corv confirmed, then all that matters is convincing *me*. Whether the 'theoretical' godfather likes it or not, I would be Judge, Jury, and Executioner and thus what matters is what I think, not what you (tajo or Kor) think or the other surviving player thinks.

So much would be banked on convincing me (today or tomorrow) I would expect some kind of response, action, concern, etc. Mirth (who I admit could be a cool customer GF) didn't take the bait, KK sort of did, and if it was SC, it is easily interpretable but for KK, it is more difficult.

In the end, all that the posts between us have done is make me consider that KK is the "hypothetical" Godfather if the game doesn't end with your lynch Tajo. So you are affecting my decision if that makes you happy.

I don't have any comment on your motives for "helping" simply because I don't know your alignment yet and I won't until after you are lynched today. I did say I would take responsibility for it and if there is a GF, then I will give you credit for "helping me" choose correctly tomorrow if that is what you want.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

and all was quiet in the insane asylum.....

mod, can we get a prod on KK

Cor

[Corvuus]

Tajo, I've said it a few times and I'll say it again.

Nothing in this universe can convince me that you aren't today's lynch, no matter what.

Confirm vote tajo

.

As for your quote, it simply means nothing to me since your statements and actions are 'the only course of action' you could take if you are scum. I can not discount that possibility no matter what.

As ironic as it may be, if SC/KK or Mirth tried to convince me that the other was a godfather *blatantly* then I would be extremely suspicious of their reasoning and motive. Also ironic, if you, tajo, try to convince me that you aren't today's lynch because you are trying to be town by being helpful, etc. that only makes me even *more* certain that you need to die.

If you had made your post and phrased it... more charismatically, and said something paraphrased to "i'm town, there has to be a godfather, good luck, *self-vote*", then you may have given pause to me.

The fact that you ask me several times to consider your motives, to think about it, to change my mind, etc. makes me question your motives even more.

The whole discussion early early game (by Crazy and others) is that you would be policy lynched before lylo, it would be the only way to know, etc. etc. and that is what we have here. Sure, we can sit here and 'boost up the post numbers' by having Mirth and KK 'duke it out' and continue this day as long as you like. It doesn't change that I will not accept anything but your lynch today.

All you can do now is play the 'theoretical' tomorrow. Which you are free to do so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You also say that my last post "all is quiet in the insane asylum" is vague and what are my thoughts. I don't know how many times you are going to ask and I am going to answer this... especially since there is a lot to read on my "thoughts", opinions, etc.

If you want a current update on my particular view of how this game will play out then the short short version without hearing more from Mirth/KK is this:

Today -> lynch tajo
If game does not end.
Lynch -> KK

For an exact case on Mirth or KK, I think you will have to make one yourself or look elsewhere (i.e. KK make one on Mirth for example). If I am the 'judge, jury, executioner' then people should be bringing their case to me, not I to them.

Corv

[Corvuus]

the fact that we have had this conversation several times (3?) isn't going to change anything.

I mean, I could summarize it as a type of puppet show with our caricatures coming out and saying their viewpoint and what not, and we could vary the scenes but you've still just said the same thing over and over again.

That I am wrong, and that I have no clue, etc. etc.

I could point out that Farside's final "death cry" was "they don't have a clue" and how it is amusing that you use the same word, but hey, that doesn't really matter.

You could say I am stupid, I don't have a clue or whatever you like and that you are just trying to help me make the right decision after you are lynched because you don't think I will make the right choice on what may or may not come tomorrow.

That is all fine and dandy as well. I just don't want you to be under any illusion that you won't be lynched today.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Mirth: what is there to wonder about? I said I didn't think either of you (kk/mirth) were godfather and I did say why and I said what reasons I had for both of you.

I do think it is amusing that I don't believe in a godfather theory at all but I am the only one who has given several reasons and thought about it while you guys seem to be 'hedging your bets'. But hey, if you don't want to read what I already said about everything and continue to post 1 liners until deadline and tajo is lynched, then go ahead.

Cor

[Corvuus]

apparently you didn't finish reading.

read post #1895 again.

The entire basis of my original voting you Mirth on a theoretical tomorrow would just be that I considered SC/KK even less likely to be a godfather for various reasons. I have no reason to think of you as godfather and I have said as much, you would just be my choice via process of elimination in a sense.

However, it has occurred to me that the only player who (hypothetically if tajo isn't scum) would know that there *is* going to be a tomorrow, then they may try to set things up and try to control the events of tomorrow today. SC/KK did say something like this, you (mirth) on the other hand did not. Even when I said I would lynch you via PoE, etc. you didn't respond or say anything about SC/KK (which is sort of a null tell for you since your response is essentially you being you whether town or scum... or as now is apparent, maybe you just didn't read) while SC/KK *did* say Tajo should be lynched but he has a case on Mirth.

If SC/KK can produce this case, etc. etc. and we talk about it, then good for him.
Maybe it will be quite good, maybe it will be nonexistent. Don't know until KK is prodded and posts. Until this happens, I view his statement as being ... potentially opportunistic.... i.e. scum knowing tajo is mislynch and thus preparing for tomorrow and I'm willing to say it simply to see how he (and you i suppose) react.

So I did change my vote and look at that, I said why. Yay.

If there is too much wifom/mindgaming, etc. then let's just lynch Tajo and move on already then. Anything else we discuss or do today in regards to KK/Mirth will most likely end up being wifom/mindgaming as well.

Corv

[Corvuus]

we could post on this and 'go around in circles' forever, but as I like to keep saying (but you guys keep asking me for my 'opinion' and thoughts even though KK and Kor haven't posted in days... 3 days for KK?), I will try to stay out of it.

I personally don't think I missed the point but I considered his post in terms of phrasing, etc. If KK was SC, then this would be much easier for me. As it stands, I don't know KK enough to clear him in this and I have taken steps (whether tajo believes it or not) to figure this out.

Cor

[Corvuus]

if that is how you wish it, then ok.

In the future, don't quote me and say "I'm wondering the same thing." If you don't want a response and you won't have to hear (or see rather) anything from me until KK makes his case, etc.

C

[Corvuus]

ok. in the future I will just say "post # such and such" and leave it at that. Is the point clarified for you now?

[Corvuus]

ok. i simply don't understand what you 'want' from me Mirth.

If you have a point or something to say, then say it. Otherwise there is simply no point to this especially when you can be reading/posting on your perspective or case (on Tajo or KK) and it has nothing to do with me or any of my posts and the incident in question *is* silly since I said clearly why I shifted and gave reasons, all in the same post. Seriously, I've been humoring this 'Godfather' theory long enough and you and tajo are misrepresenting what I thought I had said quite clearly and consistently *and* this is leading nowhere.

If you really think Tajo and Kor could "help" in the resolution of a theoretical godfather tomorrow, then by all means, make your posts and case and get responses.

If you think there is no godfather or that Tajo and Kor's help isn't needed (or helpful) then let's lynch Tajo and get this silliness over with.

I just don't see how Tajo, who hasn't been helpful at all *all game*, now suddenly he will become helpful enough that we should accept a premise of a godfather with no evidence and ignore Tajo who is, by far, more likely scum than Mirth or SC/KK.

I simply don't understand what you guys are playing at. If you are trying to help Mirth, then help. If you are trying to help Tajo, then help. Otherwise, we are just killing time.

C

[Corvuus]

I think your post is pointless for several reasons tajo.

One of which is: "players that please you are town, players that don't please you are scum". This is so much blatant misrepresentation that I'm really set to lynch you even more.

The only player that I am after and I say is scum is you. Mirth, Kor (i don't know about KK since he hasn't posted recently) aren't trying to please me and they do post against me/disagree with me. Did I ever say that Mirth's recent comments or Kor's comments made me think that they are 'scummier' or anything?

No. I said it wasn't helping or constructive.

The fact is, you need to stop wasting time trying to sound reasonable and make your case. Learn some 'modesty' yourself since you are the one who had, repeatedly said, "you have no clue", etc. etc. which is an insult and I have humored you on your points which I don't agree with and said why I don't and you have NEVER responded except say I have no clue and "didn't look at mirth, she is tricky!".

Enough is enough.

Believe it or not, I consider that I have been exceedingly nice to you since I seem to have re-read and considered this more than any of you and you, in particular tajo, don't seem like you want to put in any work or effort into helping and making your case. If you disagree with me, then do your re-read and post your thoughts, perception, etc. already.

Not having time or anything else is no longer an excuse if you have time to post your other posts and blatantly misrepresent things without contributing at all.

-----

....

It is considerably more annoying now when you say it is 'my job' to find the quotes and such when I *already did* look and I cited the relevant pages (or what I consider relevant) on SC/KK, Mirth, and godfather discussion and I have made mention of them in passing. No one has made comments on it, discussed it, or seen fit to enter ANY quotes, comments or anything at all about anything.

All you have done Tajo is say, "cor, you have no clue, you are wrong" and you have NEVER said why or shown evidence to support or prove anything. If I am wrong, and you have a case on Mirth or KK then *do it* already.

This day has already (as Mirth pointed out) had enough of my "opinion and views" so if you have nothing to contribute then I expect you to self-vote already. If at the end of all of this, you do flip scum at your inevitable lynch today and the game ends, I will not be very pleased at all at the laziness of this.

If I did have absolute power and could lynch without waiting on prods and responses, I would have lynched you at the start of the day Tajo and I will push for your lynch today RELENTLESSLY if you post anything that isn't you making your case on SC/KK or Mirth. That is a threat. Contribute or die.

If I have learned anything from this experience, it is this, if 80% of the players go 'afk/disappear' it is better to just shut up and disappear as well since everyone is going to hate you for it anyways.

C

[Corvuus]

KK:

Post whatever you like and do whatever you like.

I believe Tajo is the final scum and I indulged this 'godfather' theory too much when I should have just said "no, die". I should have taken my own 'advice' and stopped listening to tajo but where I am at now is "contribute or die (to tajo)".

You can post whatever you like and we will just read everything again if there does come to be a 'tomorrow'. No more mindgames, no more wifom, nothing.

C
P.S. To save my own sanity, I am only going to check in once every day or other day. my vote stays on tajo until the end.

[Corvuus]

.... and the insanity continues.

For my night action I targeted Mirth: I got innocent. In previous nights, I got innocents on Kor and SC/KK. Kor got a guilty on me and Mirth (insanity flipped) to innocent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That out of the way, I will say the following. If you disagree with me or my interpretation, then let me know.

First of all, there has to be a godfather. (evidenced by investigations)

Second of all, they are probably a Serial Killer/not allied with Tajo/Crazy/Farside scum group. If Crazy was town, then Tajo/Farside/Other would have won instantly upon Crazy's 'mislynch'. Therefore, it points to a SK.

Third of all, we have 3 'power role' claims (2 cops and a doc) and a townie claim. If a role can be proved to be false, then, that would be good evidence for me to conclude that they are the SK/godfather.

- To this end, Mirth, Who did you protect, is there anything further you could say or do that could somehow help us believe your doc role.

- Kor, who did you investigate and could you tell me the paraphrase of the wording of you getting 'shot' at. (you mentioned that you knew your NK resistance was tested before, I need to know that *now*).

- if any of your have questions regarding me or my role, then let me know.

Fourth of all, assuming a normal SK (one that has the ability to kill every night) they choose not to, or if they did, they 'failed'. I will re-read (and suggest you all as well) but I recall that the first moment that this occurred in mod flavor was FL's post #78, where the NK was burnt to a crisp and a gunshot was heard. This lead me to my first initial discussion of the possibility of a SK or 'second killer' to which tajo said, "no, no lynch is the best way, no evidence for a 2nd NK". It was this flavor post that made me NOT claim 1-shot bulletproof cop outright but "NK resistance" since I didn't know of the existence of another cop yet and I assumed that the bullet 'firing' but no one dying from it may have been someone targeting me. I didn't receive any 'notice' that night but I assumed that it may have been the mod's way of letting me know that it had occurred. Kor, I really need to know if you can say and verify this.

-Fifth. It may be difficult but the only group who would 'know' there was a SK at some point would be the mafia scum group since the mafia may have targeted someone else but the SK targeted Corporate (burnt to a crisp). Tajo arguing for a no lynch at that point is most likely explained that he 'realized' that there is a SK and that a double kill (with a mafia not being killed by SK) would result in a scum win. There may be hints in what the scumgroup were doing in terms of who they thought (if they knew) that there was a SK.

- Sixth. Interaction/scum buddy linkage between players appears to be 'moot' now since we are all playing a solo hand. My conclusion that SC/KK and Mirth couldn't be godfather was based on comments and interaction *AND* that was assuming that they were all part of the same scum group. A solo godfather/serial killer is possible and my defense of both of you (KK, Mirth) doesn't apply.

--------------------------------------------

Ok, that is what I would like.

As for personal comments and such.

Kor: I need to know what it said when you were shot at and how you were notified etc. as much detail as possible but with paraphrasing so you don't risk being modkilled.

I believe you are a cop and I need to know what you think about me on this.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I started on my post before seeing yours KK.

I believe my point addresses it, but yes, I think Tajo was not a death miller but scum and there is 'another' one left. It could be mod mindgame or whatever else, but I don't consider it that likely at this point.

If you think it is a godfather allied with Farside/Crazy and that Tajo 'is' a death miller and he flipped 'mafia goon' upon his lynch due to that, then we can talk about it.

I think it is more likely that he was really a goon, and that previous nights and comments by the scum group show that there may be a SK.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a sidenote: I don't understand your comment and it does raise my suspicions of you.

You state: "no night kill... etc. etc. suggests that Kor was targeted and had his NK resistance reduced" but this doesn't make sense since Kor was already targeted and already had his NK resistance reduced and he has told us so. (kor please confirm).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Kor: I do not know if I was targeted last night or not but I received no message from the mod or anything else that indicates that my NK resistance was reduced or affected.

The possible explanations of Crazy is "easy".

1. Crazy lied about targeting farside and really targeted someone else (scum lie). 2. Crazy was just a 'reverse death miller' that flips town upon his lynch. (scum)

I personally believe Crazy was a reverse death miller and that is how Tajo crafted his death miller ploy.

To say that Crazy was *not* scum (not you Kor but KK) and that scum is a 3 man team is simply not possible since the game would have ended.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kor: The reasoning behind my asking you and 'confirm' that you get a notice or not is because I never got one at any point in this game. When Corporate was burned and there was a 'bullet shot' heard, I thought that was my notice at the time. So I was surprised when you said that you got shot at yesterday and received a notice since that told me that I hadn't been shot at *OR* that Mirth, the claimed doc, protected me since she claimed that she did so that night.

I never received a message so I wanted to confirm whether or not if you really did. If you did, then I'm more likely to believe Mirth's doc claim; I believe your cop claim, and that leaves SC/KK as the one by PoE.

I want to hear who Mirth protected, although, it may not matter since scum may have just targeted no one at all in order to keep us at 4 instead of 3.

----

Kor: What do you think about the mod's flavor showing that Tajo *was* scum and not a death miller. I.e. 'you found a gun and this clearly shows, etc. Do you think the mod is messing with us and that tajo was a death miller?

Also, what do you think about Corporate's burning to death, gunshot heard, etc.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

for why I think Tajo was scum and not just DM scum flip.

Tajo's paraphrase for his role initially:

Paraphrasing and using the first person.
I am a miller. I managed to have a gun but sadly it's broken. There could be cops but they will see me as mafia. And if I were to die, people will look at my things and due to my useless gun I will be remembered as mafia.

------------------------------------------

Forbiddan's death scene:

You all then decide to do a search of his things...and you find, among other murder paraphenelia...a GUN! He might have had an excuse for the other stuff...but there's not WAY a nice person would have a gun! Not in an insane asylum! You all go to bed finally feeling as if your luck is changing, with another successful lynch. But will that luck hold, you wonder, as the flourescent lights dim and go out...

and

U..U founded anuther wun uv us!? How...How dar u! wee...wee r teh mafier! wee wull not b stoped so easy! U wull nevar find meee!

---

Corv

[Corvuus]

if you want an acknowledgement after the game is over and we "truly 100% know" then fine. I don't see that quote convincing me that you are a death miller when it comes from the same mod who writes in such a way that seems like you are a mafia flip. but hey, I will apologize at the end if it appeases your ghost.

C

[Corvuus]

I don't know what you want from me tajo and at this point, I think we'll just have to wait until the end of the game.

------------------

setup speculation and balance alone make me think about your flip, but fine, whatever.

[Corvuus]

Kor: i never got a message but I wanted to hear what you would say about it simply because I thought I could tell whether or not you were lying about a message and its' contents. The importance of their being a message or not.... well... I need to hear from Mirth who she protected first.

I doubt she choose KK but either she choose to protect you (Kor) or maybe she flipped a coin again. I don't know.

--------

I guess I am nitpicking (hey, if mafia can claim SK's kills, then SK can claim mafia note, etc.) but my SK thoughts are because according to the wiki, SK's have a different killing method and we have NKs with 'bullets' and then NKs with burned body and 'explosion' (happened to both millers). but ... well... i suppose it doesn't really matter too much whether it is a godfather-SK or just a godfather.

.....

In the end, I guess it still all boils down to proving the claimed power roles and then picking.

Kor: do you think I am mafia?

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmm.

i need to re-think/re-read.

Crazy *had* to be scum (assuming 3 man team) otherwise the game would have ended.

So if there is no 3rd party, then Tajo is telling the truth (DM) and Farside/Crazy were the scum team so far.

I need to consider more.
Corv

[Corvuus]

Still considering but:

Kor, I wouldn't allow your lynch either.

I kind of wished scum had targeted me since I thought Mirth (if really doc) would protect you over me, the attempt would be made on me and I'd get a message or something so then we could 'further confirm' each other so that it would be cops deciding this. I think scum most likely submitted no night kill at all.

Regardless of speculation, it seems quite unlikely that the setup would be balanced if one of the cops was lying. Godfather, millers, etc. stacked against town, possibility of slipping up if fakeclaim and then knowing 'what' to claim in existence of NK resistance, etc.

It would only make sense if both Kor and I were scum together, but that isn't a possibility so we have to be cops together.

At this point, I favor SC/KK being the godfather.

There are various reasons why, but it does amount to just being a feeling or a hunch. It has to be unanimous at this point, so I would like to hear anything from all of you.

Corv

[Corvuus]

The potential for people to lie is what makes it hard to 'conclude' anything 100% right now.

Example: If Mirth said she protected me and Kor didn't die, could we conclude that mafia sent in no kill?

Even Mirth protecting Kor and no one dying, doesn't really mean anything. Mirth could be real doc, or could be scum who sent in no kill.

If Kor is telling the truth about being targeted (and getting his NK resistance reduced) which I believe, then I would have received a message as well if i was targeted and I did not. Whether anyone thinks I am lying about that, I have no reason to, especially since if I did get targeted, I would have a message to compare myself with Kor.

I simply don't and while I could have tried to lie/wifom/mindgame my way into trying to get something or a response, it just isn't worth it when I haven't lied about my investigations/results/role, etc.

In the end, the issue comes down to setup balance in a way.

Assuming Tajo is right and he is Death Miller.

The game has mafia goon (farside), Crazy (reverse death miller), and a godfather.

Town has 2 millers, a death miller, a bunch of townies and then the question remains does it have 2 cops (with ? sanity and NK resistance) and a rusty doc.

I don't see this game making sense (or being able to pull off so many lies, actions, etc.) if it was only 1 power role.

Kor and I can't possibly be scum together. So one of us at 'least' has to be telling the truth, and then for us to claim NK resistance, etc. etc. it isn't very likely unless it was true. I didn't really breadcrumb (well, I did say i would get better over time and such regarding speech) while Penta (to me) did breadcrumb his questionable sanity of seeing everyone as millers (guilty investigation). Kor being targeted... I see no reason for him to lie and we did get no night kill that night. His response and reaction seem real and not fake. Kor may dislike (heck, probably several people do) because of my play style, thinking, etc. but I did get guilty on Farside and did explain my reasoning (which I think Kor hates me for).

Either of the cops being the godfather doesn't make. Motive, reasoning... heck, being able to fake claim without any hint and make everything 'line up' and be consistent... the odds of it simply isn't very good. And then balance wise, 1 cop (with or without a doc) against millers, godfather and death miller... doesn't make sense.

Well, I talk too much but in the end, we will need 3 out of 4 votes to lynch someone and assuming the person doesn't self-vote, both Kor and I have already stated that we aren't going to vote for each other so it is 'impossible' for the cops to be today's lynch.

Currently, i am re-reading Mirth. Balance and other reasons would point to Mirth being a doc but I don't know.

2 cops with NK resistance balanced versus miller/scum without a doc... I don't know.

There are other parts which bother me now that I remove Tajo from it. I.e. Assume Tajo is town/death miller, then alot of what he says I don't consider mindgame/wifom (but just as is) and then my opinion of SC and Mirth do change.

C

[Corvuus]

the only reason I can see you mentioning 'insider info' is if you don't believe Kor or I since we are the only other claimed power roles.

I've now accepted that tajo is most likely a death miller, and that Crazy/Farside are the other scum for the 3 man team.

So your statement would examine a potential Crazy/Farside/Kor team or a Crazy/Farside/Cor team (with the cop being a godfather who had inside information to fake claim) and then proceeded to eliminate all of his allies.

Kor probably still dislikes me for my mindgame/wifom with Farside but it "is" based on my guilty result that Farside was even the day's lynch. If I was godfather allied with them, then my actions in rejecting 'no lynch', pushing their lynch, investigating farside and claiming guilty (which would be a bus) and their reactions... I don't think it can plausibly add up.

Similar thing for Kor. Voting No lynch, lynching Crazy, lynching Farside, his reactions and responses. The fact that we both can't be scum means we can't both be fakeclaiming, and our claims are essentially the same but 'mirrored' (sane/insane).

So even if we were given 'insider info' to fake claim, and did fakeclaim (and did enough that would be close enough to each other) why would we kill the other scum when the 3 man scum team could have won at several points in the game.

If anything, the 2 cop claims threw the scum team off (Farside/Crazy) and resulted in them getting lynched. Crazy for not fitting in, and Farside got a guilty result on her.

Things would make more sense to me if tajo was scum and there was a SK/godfather, and then I'd say that KK/SC was almost certainly it. As it is, the only one I will absolutely refuse to lynch right now is Kor.

But I guess I would like to hear what insider info could have been given and how it makes sense based on the chronological order of the cops claiming, etc. etc. Especially since I don't imagine only one scum getting the insider info but 'all' and yet Crazy/Farside seemed to be thrown off by 2 cop claims appearing.

----

Mirth, I think you may have already done this, but to refresh us. Can you give us a full and total disclosure of your role pm (paraphrased of course) as to rusty doc, etc. etc., anything else. I wouldn't agree to a 'no lynch' so there are no more night actions to worry about.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

crossposting:

Even if it was about roles (like cops in your example) then if we (Kor or I) are lying then we would have had to pick and 'mold' our claims (just from knowing cops exist) into being a sane/insane cop (with suitably role phrasing), NK resistance and we would have to have penta's breadcrumb (i see everyone as millers) and my speech, etc. etc. crafted early on and then claim during the massclaim, match with the other one (both can't be scum) and then proceed to try to kill "our scumbuddies".

Corv

[Corvuus]

no.

I believe the cops which means this isn't random and our odds does not increase by no lynching.

I.e. Cor and Kor are cops, Mirth and KK are the only possible choices, 50% chance of getting it right.

If we no lynch and, for some weird reason scum decide not to submit 'no night kill' but actually kill someone, then either they kill Kor (cop) which doesn't help, or they kill a 'non-cop' which results in an auto-lose for them.

I suggest you re-read etc. instead of contemplating a 'no lynch'.

Now that I've accepted Tajo as a death miller, I can see his points on Mirth; SC's play is flip-flopping for me.... I don't know why Mirth says that she can't see anything scummy in SC's play though, and I guess I would have to wait till she comes back to find out.

---------

On a joking sidenote, if tajo was the final scum, there is no godfather, then all we need to do is 'lynch forbiddanlight' to get the key to get out of this place. Instead, even though we have 'won', FL is going to keep us here until we kill each other.
...

bad FL! bad!

C

[Corvuus]

.....

well, I think i've posted several times recently on this and it just shows me that you aren't reading.

so here is how it will go instead.

if you could convince me that Kor has even a 10% chance of fakeclaiming or being scum, then i will reconsider.

I've already stated why it is doubtful and given some reasons (there are definitely more, the one I hadn't mentioned at all yet is that if Tajo is a death miller and Farside and Kor were scum together, then he could have directed/followed me onto tajo, etc. etc. instead he said 'screw you corv', etc. etc.) and so I have Kor at being about 1% chance (actually probably less) of being scum.

So yes, it does matter to me if he dies, etc.

As to how this changes things for the 'remaining pro-town player' (you or Mirth), it simply means you will have to convince both cops. I may be crazy and mislead by insanity of verbosity and thought, but Kor isn't like me at all and I think that is good in this situation.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I just finished re-reading Crazy.

Not much information to really glean from it. He voted no lynch and before that was just his vote on Electra's lynch. He did make a 'view' of who he thought was scum and his scumteam was Mirth/SC/Farside.

He ranked Farside and SC together as scum via PoE, while previously he had Mirth as "scummiest" on his list, she shifted positions due to her doc claim but still as scum.

Overall, it would be more against SC than it is Mirth.

Tajo's re-read (as a death miller) is more against Mirth due to farside interaction, comments. I have to read tajo and farside again since Mirth I can imagine her saying what she said as scum or town.

C

[Corvuus]

I just finished re-reading Farside. It points mainly to SC/KK being the last scum, more so from early days, after the claim there are a few mindgame/wifom moments of SC's chronological mishap and with Mirth, but the push on Mirth, Mirth claiming, Farside lack of explaining vote list, switching to Electra seem to be consistent with Mirth and her not play acting this. I'll have to re-read Tajo's opinion though just to balance my own.

I still wonder about Mirth saying she would be ok with lynching Tajo or Farside; KK at the time said Farside and Mirth?.

SC/KK has shown more knowledge/info and if it was SC, I would probably already hold him guilty for it. Yay for more re-reading.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I just re-read KK.

KK, I think you are scum.

There are various wording and phrasing which I don't like but it amounts to knowing too much information and hypothetical stating things which do not need to be stated but stated anyways.

Farside being a goon (very early on, your 2nd post), factors in arguing why there would be 4 of us alive here today instead of 3, comments immediately on replacing in that there has to be a godfather (Mirth) based on re-read/initial post.

You also stated before that you believe the cops and such for balancing reasons and made a point on it, but now you don't and you haven't stated your reasoning for it except that I am close-minded.

I'm going to re-read tajo again, and wait a day or two and re-read again just to 'clear' my mind but I'm leaning towards placing my vote on you.

Corvuus