Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[charter]

Heh, so inspired by this game I did some wikipedia reading and I found that Virginia's motto is "Sic semper tyrannis!". Cool stuff that wikipedia is.

vote Xtoxm

for being the only one of you I've been in a game with.

[charter]

vote Xtoxm

for being the only one of you I've been in a game with

that I remember

.

Heeeeeey. We played together in Mini 539 a long long time ago. Am I

that

forgettable? =(

Oops, fixed.

unvote, vote incog

Now I'm not playing favorites.

unvote

which I believe was interpreted as you knowing that I have a reputation.

Your mom has a reputation.

It is absolutely beyond me why we are still discussing Corio. This game should not be four pages.

I agree. Also, every time I read this name I just see pathetic, you should have thrown some more letters in there.

Now that I've got my RVS shenanigans out of the way.

vote dahill

I don't like his telling off Glork when he thought it was a hammer. I also don't like how he seems to be getting Corio worked up but not planning on going anywhere with it.

[charter]

I don't like his telling off Glork when he thought it was a hammer.

you would have been in support of a hammer with no claim?

I should have said I didn't like how you told off Glork, that's what I meant anyway. It looked fake to me.

[charter]

I'd like a dahill lynch from today.

[charter]

Interesting point Yos makes against Erratus.

Needless to say, I'm happy with my Xtoxm vote. I feel very "meh" about dahill. And Corio definitely needs to die sooner, rather than later.

Do you think that Xtoxm is scum?

[charter]

I think Xtoxm is town, I don't like Yos or dahill's votes for him either. I'd vote for dahill again if I could.
I don't understand why everyone always blows up when someone self-votes. I don't even remember the last time I saw scum do it when it wasn't a hammer to end the day short.

[charter]

I think Xtoxm is town

Why?

I don't understand why everyone always blows up when someone self-votes. I don't even remember the last time I saw scum do it when it wasn't a hammer to end the day short.

Yeah, that was why I said it was "anti-town but not really scummy". Claiming vanillia for no bloody reason, though, is INCREDIBLY anti-town, and on day 1 that by itself is almost enough reason to lynch someone (because they claimed vanillia, which a scum would do but a townie should never do; and because it's a safe lynch; and because it limits the number of day 1 claims). Combined with the other scummy behavior, and his refusal to answer simple questions, he really seems like the lynch at this point to me.

I just don't think what he's done is really that indicitive of scum (though I should have said "I don't think Xtoxm is scum" rather than calling him town). I agree it's not helpful though. I understand your points, but I just don't have a scum read from him.

Plus, he's a safe lynch now that he's a claimed vanillia (he's either a vanillia or a scum), and if he gets lynched no one else has to claim, which protects the power roles.

exactly why i think he shouldn't be lynched today (although when i tried to verbalize that before glork shit his pretty little panties). he's got absolutely no information benefit; he's a sinkhole. so unless you've got a great reason for why he's scum, i see no reason to lead a bandwagon on him now. unless, of course, you're planning on getting him lynched. which is something that i really don't foresee unless xtoxm does something monumentally stupid.

I pretty much agree with this.

About Yos2's Vanilla-claim-more-likely-coming-from-scum thing, I happen to agree with Patrithetic; in my experience, premature vanilla claims (from raw newbies at least) happen to be extremely reliable pro-town indicators and have in pretty much every instance I've seen have always come from town. Also, I've seen scum fake-claim pro-town power roles on D1 often enough that I used to give D1 Vanilla claims extremely high credence.

This is my experience lately too (and what I generally do as scum as well).

226 - I don't like Corio's extreme buddying up and apologizing for something he doesn't need to apologize about. Sounds like he just wants to please everybody.

I think Glork makes a solid case in 263. I'd also say something more along the lines of Corio wants to make it publicly known that he's here and 'scumhunting' when I don't see the need to make it this known to everyone.

MOTHERFUCKING BLUEHOST

I don't really think he was. I think he was intentioanlly trying to deter people from voting him using a self vote, and that is scummy.

How do you figure? Shouldn't anyone, regardless of alignment, want to get votes off themselves? I ask because of a situation in an ongoing game where I don't hold the same opinion.

...And there it is. I disagree with your reasoning. I don't think that scum would do that to self vote. You know that if you self vote in such a situation (where you're under actual suspicion with a legitimate case building against you) that you're just going to increase that suspicion with a self vote. I think scum are less inclined to do so.

I still think dahill is scum. The only thing bothering me is dahill and Corio's interactions in the beginning. I almost want to pull one of the 'one of these two is scum' numbers, but I seem to remember thinking dahill was just doing it because others were. I'm going to take a closer look at EA and RV, both of whom are sitting pretty with their votes harmlessly on each other (RV especially).

[charter]

FoS RV, for not even knowing two thirds of the players in this game exist.

[charter]

Maybe I should follow that up.
RV, what do you think of those voting for Xtoxm? What do you think of those voting dahill? What do you think of EA currently?

[charter]

I don't see a contradiction.

[charter]

Been busy, I'll read up when I get a chance.

[charter]

Charter, you based your vote on dahill on his reaction to what he thought was a hammer by glork initially. What would have been your reaction if dahill had gone wild and shouting all over the place?

I probably wouldn't have found it as suspicious. I don't think I've mentioned the other reasons I'm suspicious of him as well (since he's done more scummy things since then) I think I just kept saying 'I wanna lynch dahill' or something similar.
He flip flopped on Xtoxm pretty badly. He first says he'd be down for lynching Xtoxm, but knows he plays anti-town as town (and I got the impression that he wouldn't want an Xtoxm lynch due to this fact), then votes him for saying he's playing anti-town (and that's it).
I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.
Ether also has an interesting point in 324.

I'd also say something more along the lines of Corio wants to make it publicly known that he's here and 'scumhunting' when I don't see the need to make it this known to everyone.

where have i done so?

This one

Corio, would you care to respond to my FoS?

don't give a shit, sorry. i meant what i said. if you think that's worth voting me for, just fucking do it, but i'm in the business of scumhunting not defending myself over one comment.

and kind of this one

HThis is at least the second time you've preached about "having better things to do," yet

I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THESE "THINGS" THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

.

thanks for making me read two paragraphs. i guess writing superfluous sentences really makes the bullshit seem more official.

at the beginning of the game, i laid out two things a player could do: start a wagon or join one. i joined one. i've stated my reasoning for joining said wagon. better yet, i've responded to arguments to the contrary, and i commented on another wagon that seems to be gaining popularity.

i could also engage in oratorical gymnastics. but i'm not going to, because that's not what a fucking townie does. i might as well take pictures of me dancing a tango on my desk. i'm actually going to focus on the game and do what i think a townie does.

[charter]

He flip flopped on Xtoxm pretty badly. He first says he'd be down for lynching Xtoxm, but knows he plays anti-town as town (and I got the impression that he wouldn't want an Xtoxm lynch due to this fact), then votes him for saying he's playing anti-town (and that's it).

i voted xtoxm for the pressure wagon. this is untrue.

I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.

also untrue. i've provided my thoughts on

everyone

last page. why didn't you bother to fact check?

This was about dahill, I don't know where you got it was about you from.

as to your quoted posts, it was a defense of my actions, not a random proclamation. you haven't explained why this is scummy.

I never said it was scummy, I said I didn't see the need to do it.
You're 0 for 2 on this one...

[charter]

I never said it was scummy, I said I didn't see the need to do it.

either you implied it or there was no reason to bring it up.
also, sorry about reading your points wrong. for what it's worth i agree with you.

What? Everything I say doesn't have to be accusations of someone being scum. It's ridiculous to say I can't point out things I think are anomalies.

[charter]

Xtoxm, any thoughts of yours would be nice.

[charter]

Well, I still think it's dahill. Same reasons as yesterday.

vote dahill

[charter]

Charter, have you "take[n] a closer look at EA and RV" yet? I find this:

I also don't see any scumhunting. There was that bit with Corio in the beginning, which I also didn't understand from him, and he later dropped that entirely too. Pretty much the only other person I've seen him give an opinion on is tuber, and I don't see how he got to his conclusions.

interesting considering A) Dahill posted that he was on major V/LA, and B) you've really only gone after Dahill and Corio at all D1, in spite of promising to go back and examine two other players. Calling the kettle black, are we?

(For the record, yes, I still firmly believe that dahill is protown.)

I did take a closer look. I didn't get much of a read off either, though I'm leaning slightly town for EA and slightly scum for RV.

Check the rest of that quote of mine. It gives better reasons why I suspect dahill. Why do you "firmly" believe dahill protown? What do you think of his flip flop on Xtoxm?

[charter]

i don't see how i flip-flopped on xtoxm
yes, he does had done stuff like that in previous games but by the time i voted him he was legitimately scummy

and i still can't see tuber's reasons for voting me

First you say you'd lynch Xtoxm but you know he acts anti town in his games even as town. You also don't mention any reasons why you suspect him or anything. Then you later vote him, for those same reasons. Why didn't you bring this up yesterday when I said you flip flopped on Xtoxm?

meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

The first part I can possibly see, but I'm confused by the last sentence; if you don't consider it telling of any particular alignment, why did you use it as a reason to vote Tuber? Am I missing something?

i was referring to using info outside of mafia games, not tuber

and wait xtoxm, claimed? when/where?

Xtoxm claimed vanilla townie in Post 117. Any thoughts on that?

Patrick.

i would be 100% down for lynching xtoxm except for one thing. he has done stuff like this before in games, as town. i wouldn't put against him to be lying, even if he's town.

Then you go to voting for him. You make no mention of him in between these posts.

Yuck...xtoxm claimed vanillia? WTF?

Xtoxm, what the heck are you doing this game? So far you've self-voted and claimed vanillia on day 1 with no reasoning very early. Do I need to explain how anti-town either of those actions are?

On a side note,

unvote:incognito

; it was a random vote, and Incog's actions so far give me pro-town vibes, so I don't want to keep it on. If I was going to vote now, it'd probably be for xtoxm, but I think I'll hold off for the moment.

Sounds like someone knows i'm town.

...
...

vote xtoxm

you are just not being helpful at all and pretty much all of your actions so far have been anti-town

Your reason for voting him is not being helpful and being anti-town, which you know he does as town! It looks (to me) like you just put the vote on Xtoxm because you knew he would be an easy lynch, not because you thought he could be scum.

I don't really see a problem with Glork's hammer, personally. If you're not going to be around before deadline, better to drop the hammer then to not.

Got anything else to say about today so far? (Or yesterday, or who you think might be scum...)

[charter]

charter: has anything changed for you since yesterday?

No

[charter]

I'm on vacation, I will read up and post on saturday when I get back.

[charter]

My condolences.

thanks

@charter, brief answer to your questions re: me flip-flopping on xtoxm

in between when i had posted about him and voted him, he had clearly, IMO, committed many scummy acts that i thought was clear everyone had seen and recognized. i guess i probably should have mentioned some of them in my vote, and you're right i was wrong for not doing that. but i thought it was kinda obvious on what i thought of his behavior

Sorry about your aunt.
However, this is too little too late to get rid of my suspicions against you.

Assmaster, just to clarify, I'm assuming you're talking about this portion of my post?:

At this time, I'm actually more suspicious of your reaction to the question (needless ad hominem remarks towards me and becoming slightly defensive) as opposed to the actual action itself.

Primarily. I think Patricks point against Glork wasn't intended as anything other than just to get a reaction out of Glork, and I think you picked up a very weak point and used it against Glork in a way that feels to me a little arbitrary. The question I asked you more is aimed at the quoted bit though, yeah, that's right.

I interpreted Patrick's questions the same way as Assmaster. I came to the same conclusion as he did as well.

My Los
Dahill
Yos
Incog/EA/RV/No real clue

dahill still isn't doing scumhunting. I don't find Glork's hammer or play at all very suspicious. Yos is a hunch, I'll elaborate more later. Incog/EA/RV are very weak leaning scum reads.

[charter]

Yos's poor attacks against EA makes me even more suspicious of him.

[charter]

I happen to agree with what he's saying. I thought Xtoxm was a poor idea yesterday, and you've provided not a whole lot since then. After he brings this up, you're magically suspicious of him as well. I don't think your case against him is good at all, and it only came after he posted suspicion against you, and you leave out other lurkers (cough dahill cough).
Granted I don't think EA hasn't done a whole lot either, but I don't think he's scum (largely because I think he's right).

Plus, you single out EA after he calls you out, when there are plenty of others not talking (in my opinion saying even less than EA).

And what do you mean, "even more" suspicious of me? You haven't given any reason to be suspicious of me yet.

I've been lazy, but the suspicion has been there, as I've said. I'll try and post why I'm suspicious later if you really want.

[charter]

I'm not going after EA "because he didn't say much". It's because of the way that he keeps using craplogic for bad attacks on people, and this isn't the first time I've pointed this out, either.

Well, that, and because he's scum.

That isn't what I gathered from your post. You talked a lot about EA's contributions in the post you voted him.

Also, I notice you didn't actually answer my question.

Do you really think EA dosn't look scummy here, charter?

Correct.

[charter]

Xtoxm was scum too, that worked out well for you...

[charter]

So you're going to have to say more than 'EA is scum' if you want me to believe it.

[charter]

Yos, I'll take a closer look at it, but I feel (without actually checking) you can say the same thing replacing EA with dahill or RV (now elmo/destructor). Can you give opinions on dahill and RV/replacement as well. EA does have a point that up until that last post, you haven't said hardly anything today.

[charter]

That's a step in the wrong direction.

[charter]

See what I mean?

[charter]

That is the most pathetic votecount ever. SERIOUSLY?

[charter]

Is there anything important being said between Glork/destructo? I've just skipped over all of it because it seemed to be based off meta and I'm not going to read any other games.

[charter]

Ok, so no then.
Lets keep voting dahill people. Maybe then he will say something.

[charter]

Good lord. Look at dahill's recent posting. He's made like four contentless posts in here in the past nearly two weeks, and TONS of posts in other games/places on the site.

Clearly he is trying to hope something comes of these new arguments and people forget about him.

[charter]

Good lord. Look at dahill's recent posting. He's made like four contentless posts in here in the past nearly two weeks, and TONS of posts in other games/places on the site.

Clearly he is trying to hope something comes of these new arguments and people forget about him.

nice misrepresentation, but as i said earlier i am having trouble getting into this game. to be honest, i'm just not as interested in it. not saying i won't continue to play, but it's just that i don't find it as interesting

It isn't a misrep. Anyone can check your posts and see that.

Charter: Why is Glork not scum?

Eh, I see him as being completely unhelpful, but I don't think he's scum.

[charter]

I'd vote Yos at deadline if no will vote dahill. Why will no one vote dahill?

[charter]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

Deflecting for dahill now too are we?

in the future please don't write that many words.

Yes, at least include a summary of your posts el destructo. I just skim them.

[charter]

dahill's Yos vote makes me more sure of dahill and less sure of Yos.

[charter]

Add assmaster to my scumlist. I have no clue what he thinks about anyone, is just skirting by, and isn't voting with deadline in a few days.

I'm actually kind of inclined to think Yos might not be scum. Coupled with dahill's late vote with no reasoning and Yosarian's complete lack of trying to get someone with a legit chance of being lynched lynched, I'm waivering on him. I'll try and read EA before deadline and see if the case is legit or just bs.

[charter]

I didn't think it looked like a bus, just a shameless bandwagon vote on the largest wagon. dahill isn't going to earn any town points if he's on Yos's wagon and Yos flips scum, so I don't see the point in him doing it if they are scumbuddies. He's just going to help lynch a partner but it won't fool anyone.

You bring up a good point Des about how I was too quick to dismiss Yos's scumminess as well. Also, you think that at least one of dahill and Yos is scum. Since you're voting Yos I assume you think he's more likely. Would you be willing to move to dahill before deadline?

[charter]

charter, have you looked at my case against Yos from a day or two ago? It won't take long to read. Actually, that goes for everyone.

I just did. Forget about my waivering on Yos. I was wrong to think that dahill's actions should make him less scummy.

I don't see anyone even hinting at voting dahill and as much as it pains me to let him live another day, I will

unvote, vote Yos

[charter]

dahill, el destructo, and who else?

[charter]

Alright. I can start. Popcorn from there?

[charter]

Yes, that's why I didn't claim.

[charter]

Actually I take it back. I feel it will be better for the town if I don't claim first.

[charter]

I prefer normal popcorn. Holds people accountable.

[charter]

Whaaaa?
I'm the only power role? This is really odd to say the least.

I'm Brutus, leader of the conspiracy. That quote in my first post was made by Brutus. Each night I can find out if a player is Caesar. Night one I investigated Glork, and night two was EA, neither was Caesar.

I asked for a bunch of clarification about my role pregame, and from what I gathered, there's one person that is Caesar. I'm assuming that Caesar is the scum.

This almost seems like some king of inverted AITP variant.

[charter]

charter, you've been pushing for a dahill1 lynch since like Day 1. If you feel like this is some kind of inverted AitP, why did you never choose to investigate dahill1?

Night 1 I didn't because I assumed that after the idiocy of Xtoxm we could just lynch dahill. Night 2 I didn't because (largely the same reason) I wanted to see if Yos was on to anything.
I really have no idea as to the setup, that was just an idea I threw out.

i also don't get why charter wouldn't have investigated me since it seemed like i was/is his number one suspect
also, assuming we have 3 scum, i find it really unlikely that it's 3:1:8, with the neutral being a survivor and only 1 town power role that only serves the purpose of finding just 1 scum.
i'm starting to think that with this number of vanillas it could be more than one scum group

How can you say there's more than one scum group? Look at the conspirator role pm! Look at the one kill per night we're having! Neither makes any sense whatsoever with more than one scum group.

This is why I didn't investigate dahill, no need to. Plus, I was told that glork and EA weren't Caesar, for all I know they can still be scum. That's why I never made any attempt at breadcrumbing my results.

[charter]

Could be 2:1:9 or even more neutrals. Obviously claiming something other than the town's win condition is suicide. With just one power role even 3 scum seems like a lot.

[charter]

About an hour ago, after everyone had claimed vanilla, and I was a Caesar cop is when I came up with that idea.

I thought it was wierd pregame how I was just told if someone was Caesar. I thought it was pretty obvious from the conspirator and my role PM that Caesar was scum, but (this is just my own speculation) I think that there is probably scum that isn't Caesar.

[charter]

Possible, but I don't see anything to suggest vengeful.

I had thought about if Caesar being lynched, scum would lose, but if I ever got a guilty on him that would be game. This seems not really like mafia at all (more like skillfully throwing darts) so I'm inclined to not think that's what we're dealing with.

Can you elaborate on your confirm-innocent theory for me?

[charter]

The reason I don't like it is because you are immediately setting yourself up for failure. Flawed cop is an extremely common scum claim, and a good one, allowing you to slide into the role of cop, but also excusing yourself from failures when the people you pass judgement on come up the opposite. At this point in the game, your results are essentially meaningless. Aside from that, you imply that your role was somewhat muddy in it's meaning, and given the simplicity of the role PMs that the townies got, all this inclusion of Ceasers and Brutus's is an unecessary complication to what was previously a straightfoward game. I also dubious that, if a mod was going to include a single power role in a game, he wouldn't make it something as swingy and poor as your described role.

I realise these are points you can't really defend yourself against, cause if you have the role, you have it, but it's why I don't think it's a very good claim.

Was the complete ignorance of the fact Charter could be Harry/Caeser intentional there Elmo?

I feel like you went from extremely skeptical to extremely accepting about there being "Caesars and Brutus's" with very little in between. What caused this revelation?

I'm more than willing to re-examine any of this if there's something I'd missed, I thought 2:10 was near-universally viewed as kinda-balanced-favouring-scum.

Which is why we do newbie games that are frequently 2:7?

Mathematically 2:7 is easier to win for town than 2:10 I believe.

I think that Casesar is in the game regardless of whether Charter is lying or telling the truth. We are seeking to kill Caesar, so it makes sense to me that he would be a scumbag we have to kill. I've had that impression since the beginning of the game, though I couldn't be arsed to look more at the game's flavor until today.

How could you possibly have thought that?

[charter]

Oh. I didn't get one of those so I never really looked at it. Chill.

[charter]

That I didn't get a townie role pm? What more is there to say?

[charter]

Oh, well I checked it when I wrote that. Forgot it when I made the second post like a day later.

The fact that that's all EA has to contribute to this game I think is suspect.

[charter]

So you think I'm lying then?

[charter]

So you think I'm lying then?

That's a hard question. I think you're dubious because of the reasons I previously stated, and I also didn't like your previous play. The thing I really didn't like about your play is that it seemed overly cocky and like you were less interested in interfacing than telling, though, and those are traits that I also associate with investigative roles as well as scum. I also think it's a point in your favour that you claimed last, considering how easily you could have just slipped into the mass by claiming conspirator and how easily you could have played that card to avoid a lot of suspicion if necessary. Also there are el destructos points regarding game balance, which I think are legitimate.

I did read you with the claim in context, seeing whether it supported it or not, and I think it did, but I am nowhere near certain enough stand behind it. I appreciate this is kind of shitty answer, but it is how I currently feel.

That's why I original volunteered to claim first, 'oh I got something cool to claim' but then I figured it was worth it to wait and see if someone tried to pull a fast one. Pretty lucky I happened to randomly go last, though it didn't matter one way or the other.

I also find it way too convenient that dahill has virtually nothing to say on virtually everything, so I will, once again,

vote dahill

[charter]

unvote, vote EA

What line of questioning of Glork's was I excusing myself of? That seems to be what you find wrong with it, but I was the one questioning Glork.

[charter]

EA, who is Caesar?

[charter]

@des, I think that EA looks way too eager to cast suspicion on someone. I think Glork is obviously joking there, but EA isn't. Also, I went back and filtered EA's posts from Lovers, this is a near clone. It certainly isn't a point in his favor.

[charter]

Charter:

That's a step in the wrong direction.

How do you know?

What? He unvoted dahill which is a step in the wrong direction from a dahill lynch.

I still don't see why you'd turn around and deny having looked at it, but I don't see any scum motive for it anymore.

I denied looking at it? When?

[charter]

...That's saying I never took a careful look at it (as in to know that it mentioned Caesar). It was obvious I did see it when dahill made some bad post where it looked like he didn't read it and I said something.

[charter]

Mod Do we have a deadline?

[charter]

What time/day is it exactly?

[charter]

Ok, like four days until deadline, so people should be voting...

[charter]

I'd vote either dahill or EA at deadline.

[charter]

If I have I don't remember.

[charter]

Anyone want to post anything? Anyone?????

[charter]

How is Assmaster and Tuber completely off of your list of possible scum?

[charter]

Where did I say you struck me as pro town? You strike me as a lurker.

[charter]

How do you guys know the game is over?

[charter]

Good game guys.

[charter]

I still don't see why we didn't lynch dahill day one.

Thanks for modding OGML!

[charter]

I didn't think Glork pushing it was any more suspicious than anyone else pushing Xtoxm. He manages to get himself lynched on day one with regularity, I've seen scum and town do it to him, so I just ignored a lot of the Xtoxm scandal and tried going with those that were scummy but without their degree of involvement pushing Xtoxm (like dahill's flip flop). I thought it bad how Glork hammered then immediately said he wished he hadn't and his and Yos's claiming dahill was town with no reason, but I didn't think it meant much until we knew dahill's alignment.

Also, If Xtoxm were ever scum, I've never seen this, but I think he wouldn't act so anti town day one, and that would get him lynched anyway.

[charter]

That broke the page for me