Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Saturday.

I am Erik Jacques, Survivor. My family and I have only recently moved into the neighborhood, so I'm not willing to put my life on the line for it. I just want to get my family and I out of this crazy place safely.

I'm claiming now because I think I have a better chance of winning with the town than I do with the scum.
It's in your best interest to keep me alive at least until the day before LyLo because I have more of an interest in hunting and killing the scum than you all do.

I'll answer questions when I return, but right now, it's make a mad dash to catch up in a couple of days before breakfast time.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, been lurking, done with that.
It's the old me.

Hey Mr. Survivor, do you know if you show as town or scum on scans? Because if cop only sees town/no-town, that is either the stupidest or brightest fake claim the scum can think of.

No.

I'm willing to beleive Nacho for now, if only for the reason that I have no reason to suspect him as scum at this point. Could he be scum? Yes, but until I have enough to go on to support a nacho lynch, I won't support it. The only issue with the claim is that in an endgame situation, he may choose to vote with the scum in order to save himself and win but if that's the case, we can easily vig him.

If a vig is around at endgame. Also, your reasoning for lynching me kind of seems like an obvious way to treat everyone, regardless of claim. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

Nacho's claiming this early on? Since this games hasn't truly started yet, I'll believe the claim. But if he starts playing scummy, then the claim is not an pass for him being scummy.

@Everyone:

I'm V/LA April 8-9

Since when is a survivor claim a pass?

Also, I'm all for a scumcore lynch.

Why weren't you voting Seacore at this point if you read him to be scum?

I don't like Jedo's little rant. It's a preemptive defense against being called scummy, even though part of the reason the bandwagoning strategy wagon works is because you have the chance to be called scummy.

Doom's post #70 is testing the krypt bandwagon without jumping on it.

NS: "Tell me why you don't like the RVS but participated anyways!" ~ Terrible question. Terrible L-1 vote. Also, the "slowly" bit is condescending and makes you sound like you're inferring krypt is flailing. So, why put more pressure on someone who's not handling the pressure they've got?

@ Spoon: This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a legitimate philosophy because people like you chime in and totally misconstrue the purpose. It's the reactions of course. I didn't say I would ride this to a lynch, but if I do and she turns out scummy, I can look straight at you for the next suspect. Those type of strong reactions really come in handy later.

And if you ride it to a lynch and she comes up town, I'm assuming you're absolved of all guilt because you're just following your philosophy? Who would you look to as your next suspect there?

Okay, been lurking, done with that.
It's the old me.

Hey Mr. Survivor, do you know if you show as town or scum on scans? Because if cop only sees town/no-town, that is either the stupidest or brightest fake claim the scum can think of.

No.

I'm willing to beleive Nacho for now, if only for the reason that I have no reason to suspect him as scum at this point. Could he be scum? Yes, but until I have enough to go on to support a nacho lynch, I won't support it. The only issue with the claim is that in an endgame situation, he may choose to vote with the scum in order to save himself and win but if that's the case, we can easily vig him.

If a vig is around at endgame. Also, your reasoning for lynching me kind of seems like an obvious way to treat everyone, regardless of claim. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

Nacho's claiming this early on? Since this games hasn't truly started yet, I'll believe the claim. But if he starts playing scummy, then the claim is not an pass for him being scummy.

@Everyone:

I'm V/LA April 8-9

Since when is a survivor claim a pass?

Also, I'm all for a scumcore lynch.

Why weren't you voting Seacore at this point if you read him to be scum?

I don't like Jedo's little rant. It's a preemptive defense against being called scummy, even though part of the reason the bandwagoning strategy wagon works is because you have the chance to be called scummy.

Doom's post #70 is testing the krypt bandwagon without jumping on it.

NS: "Tell me why you don't like the RVS but participated anyways!" ~ Terrible question. Terrible L-1 vote. Also, the "slowly" bit is condescending and makes you sound like you're inferring krypt is flailing. So, why put more pressure on someone who's not handling the pressure they've got?

@ Spoon: This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a legitimate philosophy because people like you chime in and totally misconstrue the purpose. It's the reactions of course. I didn't say I would ride this to a lynch, but if I do and she turns out scummy, I can look straight at you for the next suspect. Those type of strong reactions really come in handy later.

And if you ride it to a lynch and she comes up town, I'm assuming you're absolved of all guilt because you're just following your philosophy? Who would you look to as your next suspect there?

I have no reason to not be voting someone at this point and since Krypt is at L-1, I'm going to have to go with my #2 suspect. Its rather early for someone to be put at L-1 methinks and NS hasn't really added anything new to the discussion, rather just a rehash of what everyone else has been saying.

Why NS over Jedo? Jedo had contributed nothing at this point aswell.

Thanks for for avoiding every question directed towards you, Krypt.

Why do you suggest that Krypt's avoiding your question as opposed to simply missing it?

Thirdly, Krypt, stop avoiding questions.

Oh god, not you too...

Packbat's big post is :goodposting:.

Happy birthday Glass!
Goodstuff coming up.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: as town survivor, what is you view on these 3 wagons?

tl;dr
krypt - town
NS - scum
Jedo - scum

Kryptinen is town, and Seacore needs to take off his tunneling glasses.

Hey Mr. Survivor, do you know if you show as town or scum on scans? Because if cop only sees town/no-town, that is either the stupidest or brightest fake claim the scum can think of.

As an IC in Newbie Games for over a year, I think I'm pretty damn qualified to say that one of the towniest things that newbies can do is think from a scum's perspective and go: does this make sense as scum? Here, krypt gauges my claim by how useful it is to the scum. That's a :goodpost: right there.

I don't like RVS, so I tend to unvote as soon as possible. It's just how I roll. Questions are so that we get discussion to start, these were mostly a to see how Seacore would answer. And see, discussion that is not so random anymore has formed, and Seacore has answered. That's a success in my book.

I think that in RVS the first vote is just just random, second starts the wagon and the third makes it an official in my eyes. Nothing else behind it. It's different when people have real reasons for voting.

And really, everyone, it clearly says "female" below my avatar. I know Kyle Hyde is male, but I'm not.

Explanation seems remarkably good for one that's supposedly made up on the spot. Especially since she unvoted the moment a wagon got three votes and began questioning. I can be a tinfoil guy at times, but I seriously doubt she made this one up.

I also like the way she treats questioning. Newbiescum don't really find they can "pressure people" that much, but newbietown usually feel their votes and questioning have all the power in the world.

I think scum would have been more defensive, or attacked me right from the beginning. Anything to get the discussion away from himself. But like I said, he's taking this discussion to a direction that has him in a spotlight: something I don't find scummy at all.

^that little quote and her vote on NS seriously suggest the second.

1) Maybe he's scum and playing like a dumb townie to take heat off himself.
2) Maybe he's scum and wants to create chaos and WIFOMF.
3) Maybe you both are scum and you decided this strategy beforehand.
4) Maybe he's scum who didn't think it that far and it was a genuine slip.
5) Maybe he's town and doing exactly what he's saying he does.

You asked for reasons scum would say that, she gave you reasons scum would say that. They're all possibilities, aren't they? Again, doubting scum would plan that far ahead (hmmm, this response will throw doubt on Seacore, this one will make him look scummier...).

A claimed survivor has better contribute something or get lynched as totally useless and as a hindrance in Lylo.

The attacks on me are also good. They're more urges to post something or get lynched rather than direct attacks, which SCREAM town. Scum under this much pressure could push me as scum now to relieve pressure, or they could save me for later when my lynch will do the most damage.
krypt's done neither of these things.

My computer is seriously fucking up right now, so I'm posting this now.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, firstly, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO WARN EVERYONE when a vote is at L-1. Pay attention, do something for yourselves for once.

L-1.
GODDAMN THAT WAS A DIFFICULT TASK I'M CRYING FROM MERELY ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT A QUICKHAMMER 5 MINUTES INTO THE GAME AAAARGH.

Early RVS votehopping, whatever, sweet. But you're out of the RVS when you put someone to L-1, and that weak little bit of reasoning made you seem like you were just adding on pressure, and is a nice way to bait for a quickhammer.

Finally, I don't like that you're rereading and promising more substance SINCE I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY.

[Nachomamma8]

And finally, the scum I'm good with lynching. Jedo the Jedi!

The bandwagoning strategy is not scummy. He's prescribing to the opposite strategy most people take in RVS, whatever, that's okay.
But preemptively defending himself?

[rant]If you want to vote me for doing this, fine, but don't type some bullshit about it being a scum tell. Bandwagoning day 1 is a legitimate philosophy, and I won't have you calling me scummy just because you disagree.[/rant]

Now, THIS is scummy. It's the RVS, he shouldn't give a care in the world who finds him scummy and who doesn't. It's just part of RVS. There's also the tiny little fact that you don't decide what people find to be scumtells in your posting, that's just plain stupid.

That looks like L-1 from Nobody, so be careful with the hammer.

Be careful with the hammer? Sounds like you don't care whether it's a lynch or not.

Not a good rebuttal. Scum buddies do bus, so there could be scum on your lynch regardless of alignment. I'm satisfied to stay put for now. I haven't seen good reasons to remove my vote as the pressure has mounted.

Don't like this. Earlier, he said he didn't see the scumminess and could see where krypt was coming from, but now he's taking a tiny chunk of her defense and going "Don't like it, not moving".

Sorry about the lack of posting. I don't usually post on weekends, but the last time I announced that I was jumped for giving an excuse to lurk. I can't win in that department.

Preemptive defense for lurking, and then a preemptive defense for a preemptive defense. No, you can't win at all >.>

I believe I should leave it there as long as there is continued vote support before moving on to my next scum candidate, in this case Spoon.

I thought Spoon was your scum candidate if krypt was scum? So, when the vote support disappears, that suggests that she's town, right?

My one remark is that if I saw someone else playing like this, I would think it is so obvscum as to be townie.

This is WIFOM, and this is wrong.
First of all, you're trying to defend YOURSELF with the too scummy to be scum fallacy. Meaning you know what you're doing is at a minimum antitown, but you just hold the idea that it's SO anti-town you should be viewed as townie for it?
You're trying to play the dumb town card, and it's showing.

Vote: Jedo the Jedi

L-3. See how hard that was, Nobody Special?

[Nachomamma8]

I was saying that as a survivior, you wouldn't care if town or the scumteam won so near endgame, it would make sense for you to quicklynch with scum in order to survive and win.

This is correct. That's why we're not getting to Lylo.

Please take a look at what time period we were in. It was the RVS and I was joking about Sea in order to wagon him to try and get us out of the RVS quicker.

Fair enough.

You would have preferred me putting Krypt at L-1 so early?

Yes. If that was the only lead you have, you should have reread the game and found another suspect, or pushed krypt to L-1. An aggressive town is a victorious town.

In other news, I need time to analyze everything that's going on in the game ATM

I don't want you to analyze everything, because you'll overwhelm yourself and end up doing nothing. I want you to analyze what you feel needs analyzing, and I want you to push someone as scum. That's all.

Addressing Jedo's defense now, just checking a few of his other games first.

[Nachomamma8]

You guys just have everything neatly wrapped up in a box, don't you? There's never anybody who goes outside of your definitions.

Last time I checked, we're not the one's who are claiming to predict attacks and already formulating defenses for them.

Maybe I said both of those preemptive things (about bandwagoning and being absent) because THOSE ARE THE THINGS I'VE BEEN FOUND SCUMMY FOR BEFORE. It's so boring to roll along with the same rhetorical bullshit over and over. I know exactly what people's responses are going to be, especially the scum who want to exploit these tiny flaws.

So you're telling me you know what the scum are going to say in response to this gambit? If that is so, then why not let them attack you? Then you can out the scum D1, and we can win instantly!

If I'm town, I have to sit around and wait for someone to build a case on this (I mean, since it's day 1, that's all they would need), then let other people sheep them saying, "That sounds good to me," and then try to stifle my lynch which is being steamrolled steadily onward? Umm, no thank you! Those are the only two things which I preempted, and maybe you'll recognize the logic of that now.

If you want to do something that you know people will find scummy, then yeah, that's your responsibility. If you're not willing to put the effort in explaining your town motivation and defusing a wagon in the RVS, then don't draw wagons

No, that's a bullet I have to bite. It's the same thing if I stick my neck out for someone and defend them and they come up scum.

Okay, why do you have to bite the bullet in response to a mislynch, but you don't in response to an RVS wagon on yourself?

It's scummy that Nobody didn't say it, and it's scummy I pointed it out? Bullshit.

It's not scummy that you pointed it out, it's scummy

how

you pointed it out. What part of my wording made you think anything different?

Yeah, you know because I might not find one thing scummy, but I can find another. That's not legitimate?

It's not legitimate because you took a tiny part of her defense, attacked that, then ignored the rest. Wouldn't you attack me for being scum if I just quoted a single sentence in your defense, called you scum, and left my vote?

The second question doesn't follow, and you know that.

If a wagon dissolves on someone because the main wagon pushers are satisfied with their play, it suggests the suspect is town. What's wrong with that reasoning?

Anyway, keep powering on with me if you wish. When I get to L-1, I'll claim and you can go from there. If you lynch me, I suppose you will change your whole take on the day tomorrow.

This confuses me a bit. Why are you giving me permission to push a wagon on you? And how will my take on tomorrow change?

I still think krypt is too dodgy to be getting out of a random wagon that quickly, and I say she's got help.

Did you read my post #140? Doesn't that qualify as help? Shouldn't that make me scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Jedo, I would like you to respond to my ISO #2 in entirety and explain why everything I've brought up is invalid. I would also like you to address the fact that she continued to pressure NS while the wagon on you built up, and try fleshing out your cases against Spoon and others because the case on krypt is not impressing me at all, regardless of your desire not to round up the whole chicken coop.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't follow the logic. If you think someone is scum that isn't handling the pressure well, how does it make any sense that you should avoid voting them in order to not put more pressure on them?

Bad performance under pressure this early on in the game is more a tell of ability, not alignment. It's also good to relent on a bandwagon on someone when they're under heavy pressure even if you think they ARE scum because you can examine who jumped at the opportunity to disintegrate the wagon, and you get some interactions where not incriminating a scumbuddy isn't the primary thing on scum's mind.

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

My wincon is to live until the end of the game. So, I've decided to play it like a VT who is required to live until the end of the game; I'm hoping the game will be over by the time before it becomes imperative that you lynch me.

[Nachomamma8]

And, for the grand finale:

Unvote, Vote: Powerrox

I'm still getting a fairly strong scumread from Jedi, but I can't in good consciousness let Powerlurker coast through this >.>

I wanna see kryptinen's answers to the questions before I comment his case

This is ridiculously scummy. He's refusing to give an opinion on the first serious bandwagon of the game; instead, he's waiting to see how far along the bandwagon forms and who supports it in order to determine if he should join it right now. I could see scum seeing a fairly strong early case and wanting to stay off the mislynch wagon here.

Just got home from my V/LA so this will be a short post.

Oh yeah. I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon.

Everyone have a good long look at this. How much more obvscum can you get rather than just admitting it? I don't see ANY pro-town reason for wagoning just for the sake of wagoning outside of the RVS, especially since you stated that you didn't think Krypt was scum.

Unvote, Vote: Jedo

When I think of it... WTF Jedo? Voting outside the RVS for someone you don't think is scum only for the sake of wagoning? As Doombunny9 said, that couldn't be any scummier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jedo

Weak sheep vote. Do we have any comments on krypt? Nope. This vote could also be bussing because it doesn't stay long...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

The reason for you voting for DoomBunny is bad bad bad.

Sheep vote made 10x worse by powerrox not even acknowledging that it is a sheep, even though Twisted and Glass had already brought forth those points.

Next two posts are fluff, and there's what tipped me over the edge:

I don't want you to analyze everything, because you'll overwhelm yourself and end up doing nothing. I want you to analyze what you feel needs analyzing, and I want you to push someone as scum. That's all.

*Self face-fish-slap*

Why am I always formulating my post somewhat wrongly?!

What I meant is that I wanted to take an extra look at things I might have overlooked in the game.

And RL has kept and will keep me busy for the rest of this day. More content tomorrow.

This post is scummy because he's acting like he's provided any real content thus far. He's promising to search the games for thing's he's overlooked, but he hasn't even offered an opinion on anything, really. He hasn't commented on the Jedo wagon since it's gotten more serious, he STILL hasn't commented on krypt, and he hasn't made an original comment about the person he's voting yet.

I also really can't see how bad formulation of a post can make someone accidentally say "I am going to read everything now" when they meant "I am going to look for things I missed now".

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: You're calling me lurker? Yes you announced V/LA until the 9th of April but when did your next post come after that? Four days later! And your calling me a lurker? Nice contradiction there

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

Yes, I was gone for six consecutive days. And yet, I've made more posts than you. I've actually provided content, defended town reads, attacked scumreads. You won't even address the case against you.

[Nachomamma8]

I really like the jumping to krypts defense here. (not)

Why did you dislike Glass's defending of krypt, but you didn't comment on mine?

@krypt:

Nobody Special

In ISO 3 and 4, he's doing a pretty huge overreaction deal about that he didn't announce that his vote in ISO 2 put Krypt a L-1

Twistedspoon

His behavior seems a bit to... how should I say it... random in order to be town behavior.

If these are your two top scumreads, then why are you voting me?

1.) Why do you think you have a better chance winning with town than with scum? 2.) How do you have more of an interest in killing the scum than town? 3.) If we did keep you alive, why do you say at least until the day before LyLo? I'll give my opinion on the claim once these questions have been answered.

1) Well, if I were to try to win with scum, it would mean that I would have to lurk pretty heavily. If I were to do that much, there would be a good chance I'd be vigged/NK'ed for reading like a PR. This way, I can play normally and not get NK'ed for it, and the vig won't kill me as long as I'm helping the town.
2) I have a much bigger interest in killing scum than town because if we get to the day before LyLo, I die and lose.
3) Letting me die the day before LyLo makes sure that the town isn't screwed over by having a survivor in LyLo, but gives me enough time to lynch all of the scum.

As an aside, Powerrox just posted elsewhere, so I look forward to hearing his responses.

[Nachomamma8]

At this point, I can't see anyone else I want lynched. It's pretty obvious that Powerrox is trying to just simply coast by ignoring the questions and the accusations against him, and I can't let him live if he's going to pull something like that.

Perhaps it's a guilty conscience at work? Scum have more knowledge than us, therefore they have to carefully manage what they say they know. Therefore, when addressing the question, would have been thinking "what does town-me know?" and written it. Whereas town would have just written out what they know, not clarified what they don't.

Better reasoning than I expected.

What about AurorusVox? Do you not think that he tunneled?

Yes, I think that he tunneled. But Seacore was the tunneler that I noticed predominately at that point.

This stance on Jedo the Jedi doesn't seem as strong as before. Did he manage to change your mind at all?

Yes. His stubbornness gave me more of a town read than anything.

1.) Theoretically if you did decide to win with scum: Why would you have to play like this to win with scum? Also, why do you think this strategy is better than other strategies?

1. Well, there's two problems if I just try to lynch town. Firstly, I'd have to lynch scummy town reads and defend scumreads. But, there's still the chance that one of my town reads will flip scum or the mafia will perceive me as a threat anyways so they'd kill me. So, I'd have to push my lynches a lot less obviously, meaning that I most likely would have to lurk decently heavily. This, of course, would mean that I'd be attacked by someone, but I wouldn't be able to fully defend myself or the mafia might intrpret me to be hard to lynch.

The strategy I'm using right now is better than other strategies mainly because of the neighborhood mechanic. I believe that it's going to be an extremely potent mechanic if people are scumhunting in thread during the day and in the QT during the night, and that, combined with a presumable stronger town/weaker scumteam based on my survivor status, makes me think there's a good chance for the town to win, especially if I play as good as I am capable of doing.

2. I think you misunderstood me. I meant I have a bigger interest in killing scum instead of killing town. Lynching scum gets me closer to my win condition, while lynching town takes me farther from it.

4. Scum wins more often, but it's going to be much more complicated for me to win with them, and I think that the neighborhood mechanic will do wonders in increasing our chances.

I find your survivor claim suspicious now that you've acknowledged that you'll die the day before LyLo. It would require town at most 2 lynches to reach the day before LyLo. In every single mini game I've played, with the exception of two games that each had very overpowered towns, the town has mislynched at least three times. You've been on the site long enough. Are you honestly expecting to win this way?

I think that I have a better chance of winning this way than I have any other way. Survivor is the most difficult role on this wiki to win with (just as jester is the easiest), and so when I drew it I wasn't expecting to have good chances of winning regardless of what I do. But, the simple fact that there is a Survivor in a Mini Game tells me that the town might have some tools that can either confirm me (or else LyLo is essentially a day closer), or that the town far overpowers the scum. If this was a large game, or a game without the neighborhood mechanic, I might feel differently, but everything just lined up for this strategy IMO.

Because scum can’t make :goodposts:? I was pondering along the same lines, I just have way less bearing on which to base my reasons. This doesn't make her townie, in my opinion.

Scum can make :goodposts:, but town are usually the ones making them. If they weren't, then no townie would ever have a chance to win a mafia game.

Who says it was made up on the spot? Also, unvoting can be seen as not wanting to draw attention to themselves by being on a burgeoning wagon. Finally, if you want to claim she is newbietown for using her vote, why am I not when I've specifically stated I'm using mine to put pressure?

I'm assuming it was made up on the spot because I'm pretty sure 99% of scum don't make defenses pregame like that >.>
You're not newtown, are you?

I can come up with WIFOM crap all day long as town or scum. This doesn’t clear her as a townie.

This was a defense against Seacore's accusation that it made her scum.

Again, not a solid clear. I could do any of these things as scum. If you check the third game I posted for Doom, I did scumhunting and pressure voting and “what if?” scenarios AS SCUM. Hardly good support, whereas the things I pointed out against krypt demonstrate she is using weak defenses for town. (Maybe because she's scum who doesn't have good reasons why she's town. I'm postulating, therefore I must be town.)

The question is not whether you can do something as scum or not, it's WOULD you do something as scum or not. And if you were scum under heavy pressure, would you pass up the chance to attack a lurking claimed survivor? Hell no.

@ Wicked I can't tell either way from your post, but are you aware that LMP is the mod?

LMP isn't the mod. Fuzzyman is.

I obviously agree with and approve of the powerrox suspicion. I didn't look into Quaorath before, but I agree that he looks fairly scummy.
Glass I have a townread on, and I don't quite agree with your Packbat reasoning. I'll get into why a little later.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: what makes your survivor role so hard? If we believe your claim, neither side will want to kill you

Yeah, but when it gets closer to LyLo, you'll want to kill me if all of the scum aren't dead yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Goddammit. I'm getting a bit tired of mafia atm, I'll get a post in tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Quaroath, I want you to post your notes in their entirety, now. If you don't, I will vote you.

The reasoning is that scum might say "here's the part that's not fluff" as to make it seem like they've done more work in rereading the game than they have, and to make their catchup posts look more impressive.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here. Probably going to hammer Quaroath by the end of this because deadline is practically here already.

[Nachomamma8]

I will be back later tonight to finish my catchup.
Enjoying the weekend ATM.

[Nachomamma8]

SUPER CATCHUP POSTING POWERS ACTIVATE!

What I see from Seacore is a schizophrenic interpretation of scumminess. He jumps on tiny things and makes them the centerpieces of his cases, and turns around and says, "Those things you're using to make cases I don't support: those are tiny." The obvious assumption would be that he's just got dramatically different instincts than I do, but I don't like the way he's playing.

Could you provide some examples backing this up?

Obviously the easy case is if he catches scum. He does that, and the only way he's scum is if there are multiple factions - and the NKs will let us know whether that is true or not.

Otherwise: well, we're back to scumhunting 101 - lynch people who seem scummy, whatever their claims. The only reason we postpone is to reduce the harm caused by a mistake.

Erm, if he catches scum he still isn't confirmed town. You realize that... right?

Sea, that's a terrible vote and Qua is clearly just trying to save his ass.

This is an overreaction to a deadline vote. A serious overreaction.

Sea, that's a terrible vote and Qua is clearly just trying to save his ass.

Terrible as in scummy? What is your read on Seacore? Why didn't you push him more for that vote if you think it's terrible?

I can definitely get behind a Seacore wagon.

Unvote, vote: Seacore

Happy to switch back to Jedo to avoid a no lynch. I think they're both scum.

Why go to Jedo today when you preferred Seacore yesterday? What changed?

@Nacho: thanks for not posting in our QT

Sorry, I was gone

Honestly?

I hammered because we were 46 minutes to deadline - I thought it was more important to make damn sure we didn't no-lynch than have the extra time. And if you check the time-stamps? LlamaFluff didn't lock the thread until 10:06 -

after

the deadline. We didn't lose any time at all.

When asking a question like that, I'd assume she wouldn't want it answered any other way.

@AV: Why do you think PR would change his claim to neighborhood only now? Do you think he was coached into that, or do you think he came up with it himself?

[Nachomamma8]

Setael:

Sorry about the wall. I promise the rest of my posts will be much shorter.

I've seen you wall other places plenty, and you didn't apologize then. Why apologize now?

I didn't get a scum vibe from Jedo's post 60 (where he votes Krypt) originally, since it seems unlikely as a scum move, but now that he's defended the post with "too scummy to be scum," I think it was premeditated.

What benefit do you think Jedo was expecting if he premeditated that move?

Huge red flag. Jedo hasn't given a reason to be on the wagon and has only said he thinks Krypt ISN'T scummy. There's no way a townie wouldn't unvote here.

Why not?

So evidently Jedo would have been fine with Krypt being lynched on page 2 (even though he supposedly thinks Krypt is town) as long as someone had good reasoning. This is insane.

This is a bit of a misrep. Just because you leave someone at L-1 on page 2 doesn't mean that you're fine with them being lynched on Page 2.

It exonerates you fully from any responsibility for the wagon and for the lynch if the player is lynched.

How many scum are actually afraid of being blamed for a D1 lynch? Do you really think scum need an excuse to jump on an RVS bandwagon?

Read my post again. "Him" in what you quoted is referring to Jedo, not Power.

And no, I'm not caught up. As I stated.

OK, caught up. The Quaroth case is solid, but I'd still prefer a Jedo lynch. I need to reread the attention shift from him to Power. Pretty sure scum had a hand in it.

Why didn't you post any notes on this segment of catchup like you did for everything else?

plus I'd like to see how far Seacore will go with the bus.

This doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

Do you have any suspects outside of Jedo/Seacore? You really haven't commented on anyone outside of those two...

[Nachomamma8]

Is I know LlamaFluff is a good player, Setael is decent-good, Packbat is good, and Seacore is decent-good.
So all 4 of you can't think that either wagon was scum yesterday.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the entire scumteam was in you lot. So dance, boys and girls, dance. 'cause I can and will get to the root of this.

You have a ways to go, GI.

[Nachomamma8]

What momentum? It had been stagnant for days.

Wait, what?
Seacore voted for a Jedo lynch a day before you voted and put him at L-2...

GI, put your big boy pants on and apologize.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Packbat

This vote will not move until you follow through on your promises. And every day, I will push you harder.
I promise I will have you lynched in 5 days if you give me absolutely nothing.

[Nachomamma8]

PACKBAT'S PROGRESS: DAY 1/55

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

I still need to do a straight reread - I think I will actually have time tomorrow, but at this point even I don't believe me. I'll try, anyway

REREADS COMPLETED: 0.

[Nachomamma8]

When I first read the thread, at least one person had said they hate walls or refuse to read walls or something like that. That is why.

I reread to the point where you replaced in, and I didn't find anything of the sort. Mind linking me?

Anticipating others seeing it as "too scummy to be scum" and giving him town cred for it. This seems obvious.

If he was anticipating that others would see it as too scummy to be scum, then why would he point out that it was beforehand?
Now, why does it seem obvious? Are "too scummy to be scum" premeditated defenses something you do often as scum?

A townie wouldn't want one of their town reads lynched. This seems obvious.

Jedo never called krypt town.
Hell, he even called her a leaning scum read here:

Anyway, I see we have a failure to communicate. I put my vote down randomly, but I don't move it at the slightest whim or defense because I might have accidentally hit scum. krypt didn't give a good enough defense for me to move my vote. That's at least leaning scum.

It does when they're at L-1 and you leave your vote on. And just say "careful with the hammer" and later say you'd have been fine with someone hammering as long as they had good reasoning.

All of the pressure is removed if you say "yo nobody hammer!"
And I'm always okay with a hammer that had good reasoning, regardless of how they got that close to a lynch. But, I seriously doubt there was good reasoning on page 2.

It most certainly was not an RVS bandwagon.

So you believe the cases presented were strong enough for krypt to be lynched?

Makes perfect sense to me.

If you believe Seacore to be bussing scum, then it shouldn't matter how far he takes the bus; he's still scum. It won't give you any hints as to Jedo's alignment, since you're lynching him, and it won't give you any hints to Seacore's alignment, since he's already scum. So, what's the purpose of this?

[quote="Setael"Nope. Null or town reads on everyone else atm. (Well, AV and Packbat moved up my scum scale a bit for the Power wagon, but it's pretty minor suspicion in comparison, and I'm reconsidering as I can see the reasoning behind it a bit more now.)[/quote]
Who are your null reads? Who are your town reads? What are the strengths of these reads?
Why were AV and Packbat suspicious for the power wagon originally? What reasoning do you see behind it? If you see reasoning behind it, does that influence your read on Power?

Yeah, Seacore. So the votes that put Jedo within shouting distance of a lynch were Seacore (because he also knew the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed) and Quar out of self preservation. Those don't even count and didn't make me any more hopeful the wagon would succeed.

How did Seacore know the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed? Magic?
Why didn't Quaorath's vote count? It put Jedo's lynch one vote closer, didn't it?

[Nachomamma8]

Quote tags of those last two fixed.

Nope. Null or town reads on everyone else atm. (Well, AV and Packbat moved up my scum scale a bit for the Power wagon, but it's pretty minor suspicion in comparison, and I'm reconsidering as I can see the reasoning behind it a bit more now.)

Who are your null reads? Who are your town reads? What are the strengths of these reads?
Why were AV and Packbat suspicious for the power wagon originally? What reasoning do you see behind it? If you see reasoning behind it, does that influence your read on Power?

Yeah, Seacore. So the votes that put Jedo within shouting distance of a lynch were Seacore (because he also knew the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed) and Quar out of self preservation. Those don't even count and didn't make me any more hopeful the wagon would succeed.

How did Seacore know the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed? Magic?
Why didn't Quaorath's vote count? It put Jedo's lynch one vote closer, didn't it?[/quote]

[Nachomamma8]

Also scumday... hard to believe three years.

Yup. You're old as shit.

How a Jedo/Grey lynch would give him more information about Set than a Set lynch is beyond me.

Could you link me to where Seacore said this?

At this point I'd be fine with either a Sea or a Pack lynch.

And you wouldn't be fine with a Set/Nacho/Llama/krypt/AV/Icey/Spoon/Powerrox lynch?

I also think you're scum here. So I see no real need to defend against your accusations.

>.>
Seacore, can you see the problem with this?

I'm cool with Set being the lynch today. I've said that, whatever wagon between you and her is bigger, I'll be on. Right now, you're on her wagon alone.

Why would you promise something like that? It seems limiting.

Maybe an example will make my point clearer. Say someone has a guilty result, outs it, and then gets NK'd the next night. Power here can't watch that player because he's restricted himself to ONLY his neighbours. That's perfect for a scum fakeclaim, isn't it?

A One-shot position mover flipped. PR is fairly close to confirmed town for me.

In that spirit, since it seems no one is willing to lynch Power today, can we at least give Kryptinen the rope?

Why? You haven't said anything on her lately...

[Nachomamma8]

I take Kryp's failure to answer my questions to be a scumtell. Just look how long I had to pester him before I got a straight answer about his unvote.

I interpreted a lot of the trouble in you getting your answer to have to do with the language barrier. Do you disagree with that?

There's also his pressure on you for hammering 46 minutes before the deadline (?), and the complete reversal of his Jedo read. It seems ISO's have changed so you can't see the drastic shift from P1 to P2, but if you read him you should see the way it completely disintegrates and turns into a null read, with him explicitly positioning himself against the wagon.

I was the one pushing the Jedo wagon the most adamantly, and I'm pretty sure that you never questioned me on that.

I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday.

I will never take your krypt case seriously until you go "okay, I think that krypt is scum and I'm pushing her lynch because of that", and not "oh well i might just be lynchin her cuz she didn't answer my questions yesterday LOL".

Could people (Seacore and ICE) please keep the meta down? That kind of play restricts people.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here.

when the wagon fell apart in a way that I'd expect a scum wagon to fall apart.

Can you make this not ridiculously vague, please?

[Nachomamma8]

He may be confirmed Watcher.
Confirmed role != Conf. town

That being said I don't read him as scummy anyway, so I think he's another dud wagon being pushed.

It makes him confirmed town because of how he interacts with Wicked's role.
Both are fairly useless without the other.

[Nachomamma8]

1. I've already explained this. Pointing it out beforehand was the main thing that was later explained as "too scummy to be scum" and, if it was premeditated, that was clearly part of it.
2. The answer to your question is what I was referring to as obvious.

1.

Anyway, I see we have a failure to communicate. I put my vote down randomly, but I don't move it at the slightest whim or defense because I might have accidentally hit scum. krypt didn't give a good enough defense for me to move my vote. That's at least leaning scum. I believe I should leave it there as long as there is continued vote support before moving on to my next scum candidate, in this case Spoon. *shrug* If that's scummy, so be it.

My one remark is that if I saw someone else playing like this, I would think it is so obvscum as to be townie. (Unless I better understood their philosophy.)[/quote]
No, that's not what he was trying to explain away with the "too scummy to be scum" defense.

2. I know. I was asking why your answer was so obvious.

That was not said until after the post I'm talking about where Jedo pointed out that Krypt was at L-1 but didn't unvote. At that point the ONLY thing he had given as far as his read on Krypt was: "Meh. I don't see the scumminess of kryptinen. I actually understand where she's coming from, and I applaud the effort to get town discussing."

Yes, but he later explained the read. Why didn't you buy his explanation?

Even with good reasoning it was way too early to end D1, and the person would've been hammering with Jedo on the wagon who had a town read on Krypt.

But he didn't have a town read on krypt. He said that later.

Don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is that it was not an RVS bandwagon. The votes on Krypt were not random. That fact has no bearing on whether the reasoning for the votes was any good. I think Jedo and Seacore are scum, so what do you think I think of the Krypt wagon? (Or you could go back and read my posts since I've already covered this.)

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking questions.
I also didn't ask what you thought of the krypt wagon. I didn't ask whether you thought the votes were strong or not.
I asked you if you thought the case on krypt was strong enough to get her lynched.

I didn't expect Seacore to stay on Jedo this long. I thought he would unvote and vote me, which would make sense since he was posting so many reasons to think I'm scum. I'm guessing he didn't because I called him on it.

So if he switches, he's caving to your pressure. If he doesn't, he's scared of you calling him out.

I'm not providing a full list of reads. Care to provide a reason why I should? The Power wagon was suspicious because I believe his claim and think scum would be motivated to mislynch a PR if anything about the claim is at all out of the ordinary. Thinking about it, I can see townies being suspicious of the claim so I'm less wary of AV and Packbat for it, but no it doesn't influence my read on Power because I believe his claim and still think he wouldn't have claimed the way he did if he's scum.

1) You probably haven't fleshed out your reads very well, so posting them would make you put more effort into finding scum outside of your little bubble.
2) You're not taking positions on non-Ice/Seacore anything. Providing reads and taking positions would allow me to separate you from a fencesitting scumbag.
3) You will promote discussion on scumreads that no one else is really looking at, and you might convince others that your townreads are town.

Okay, three good reasons for why you should. Now, give me three good reasons for why you shouldn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Llama.
Are you forgetting something?

[Nachomamma8]

We're not doing Packbat because of what Wicked said in the QT

If Packbat doesn't do his reread by the deadline, I will get him lynched. There's absolutely no excuse for him being able to make all those posts and yet not being able to even start his reread. It's pathetic, and it's not the Packbat I'm used to. I know he's a capable player, and I know he has time to catch up. So, he's going to catch up or he's going to be dead.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Packbat
This vote will not move until you follow through on your promises. And every day, I will push you harder.
I promise I will have you lynched in 5 days if you give me absolutely nothing.

Hello Packbat. Do you know what day it is? It's Mother's Day, May 8th.
Let's see what you've given me since then, huh?

Fair enough. I'll do my best, but I haven't been 100% for weeks - you should see what's been happening to my online chess rating.

Okay, so that wasn't a completely unreasonable demand.

Post #44: Post addressing Doom's questions to him. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #45: More addressing Doom's questions, and a nod to AV's PR case, and asks for a krypt case. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #46: More addressing Doom's questions. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #47: "That's L-2, by the way.". Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #48: Questioning of GI. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #49: Questioning of PR. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #50: Responses to Doom and I. Progress made in reread: 0%.
Post #51: Response to Doom. Progress made in reread: 0%.

There's absolutely no move to reread at ALL in any of his posting, and scumhunting is minimum.
Now Pack. I'm perfectly happy giving you one more day to live in honor of Mother's Day, and because GI is my buddy.
But if you don't give me something to work with by the time I come home tomorrow, I will bury you. If you're too lazy to do that, then replace out.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, look. Packbat doesn't even respond to me.

GREYICE:
Out what Wicked said in the QT, now.
Wicked already flipped position mover.
You're Packscum's neighbor; Wicked wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Grey, your accusation that I'm lurking is ridiculous. I've devoted plenty of time to this game, it's just all been answering Nacho's questions. I answered them when I came to them and had no time to read the rest of the thread.

It's also false to say I've done nothing. I haven't been able to be as active as I'd like lately, but I certainly haven't been absent. You're just trying to dismiss my case against Jedo, but calling me a bitch and telling everyone my posts are worthless does not make them go away. Your slot is scum and that doesn't change just because you replace in.

GreyICE was not trying to remove your posts by calling you a bitch. I figured that little piece of information had already been explained.
I don't really see where he called your posts worthless. Mind linking me?

@Doom:

@Sea- You build a case on the person you most want lynched and vote them. For example, from your posts I can tell that your strongest read was on Set yet you continued to vote Jedo because he was the largest wagon. If you wanted a Set wagon to form, wouldn't it make the most sense to be voting him?

@Set-Who do you currently find more scummy, the Grey/Jedo slot or the Sea slot? When did you start finding Sea "obvscum"?

Unvote

Need to read Sea and Set in iso later.

@AV- I know that there are more than one scum but there is also the chance (A really good one in fact) that someones scumreads have some town in there. Unless Set/Sea are 100% sure that they've nailed two scum (Which is either a) A lucky investigative role on at least D3 or b) A tunneler) then they should be voting their main suspect rather than just whoever (There are exceptions such as if someone needs a hammer or it is close to deadline but I see none of these happening at this point). Sure someone can be pushing a case on 2+ people but I don't think town should just be throwing their votes down on anyone with a large enough wagon.

@Twisted- Amazing contribution (Not). Now, two questions for you (One of which someone asked before and you haven't answered):

1. Can you make a case on why you think Sea is scummy other than "He voted himself and I wanted to jump on a bandwagon to pull off a mislynch herp derp"?
2. Why do you think Set is town?

Vote: Twisted

This guy really needs to post more content.

What happened to those rereads...?

I read set as town

just thought I'd say :/

Gut, or something more?

I find Jedo scummy because of the way his wagon formed and fell apart. I mean, go back over D1 and watch it. It grew as a secondary wagon to Krypt, stayed secondary when Power because the prime wagon and then just when it was about to become the prime wagon itself, it fell apart and people went after Quar. Some of them did it "just to hammer so we'd have somebody at deadline" even though, with a little bit more work, Jedo could have been the lynch.

Why do you think his wagon fell apart? Scum influence, or was it because the people pushing the wagons with the most fervor lost their spirit?

It's basically the whole Vote:Town FOS:Scumbuddy thing that is so common.

Examples?

We are not lynching packbat today.

If he posts his reread or replaces out, no we are not.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, do you mean examples of when scum do the Vote:Town FOS: Scumbuddy? Or examples of Set doing the equivalent in this game?

The first.

@Nacho: What are your views on LlamaFluff, Setael, and Seacore?

Llama is town, Seacore is leaning town.
Seteal should be an obvious read.

Quote tag fixed

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Setael

Let's do this Grey <3

Pack, if you make me regret this in the slightest, I'm burying you.

[Nachomamma8]

It makes him confirmed town because of how he interacts with Wicked's role.
Both are fairly useless without the other.

But I could get some information from watching my righboors, couldn't I?

You could, but you're most likely not going to get much.
Wicked being a position mover would allow you to watched claimed PRs and obvtowns, which would be a hell of a lot more useful than being able to watch one of Setael and Seacore...

[Nachomamma8]

returning tomorrow busy

[Nachomamma8]

Please watch your quote tags Doom, Nacho asked why, I didn't.

"Please watch your quote tags" sounds kind of weird. It sounds like you give a fuck.

does the speed of a wagon indicate alignment in any way?

Yes.

Is this your only reason for thinking your read on Jedo was wrong? The fact that Wicked thought Jedo was town? What makes you think Wicked's reads were accurate just because he flipped town?

Who do you think is scum, TS?

no, but wicked's reads are probably better than mine, or the scum wouldn't have killed him

who do i think is scum? I'm not sure. Seascore seems to be playing as I would as scum though

What do you mean by this?

Grey, you do realize that Set and Sea AREN'T scum together, right?

[Nachomamma8]

SUPER CATCHUP POSTING POWERS ACTIVATE!

What I see from Seacore is a schizophrenic interpretation of scumminess. He jumps on tiny things and makes them the centerpieces of his cases, and turns around and says, "Those things you're using to make cases I don't support: those are tiny." The obvious assumption would be that he's just got dramatically different instincts than I do, but I don't like the way he's playing.

Could you provide some examples backing this up?

Start at the start, with his kryptinen work. #122, #135, and #138; #45 and #73. I don't see anything worth anything there - he's seeing plots in kryptinen's posts that would never work outside a nineteenth century adventure novel, and basing his entire case on them. The same sort of thing shows up at #219, where he takes a throwaway sentence in a Twistedspoon post and turns that into a major thing as well.

Contrast with his response to my case on him at #144, which he opens with: "Packbat's case on me is stupid though."

Actually:

UNVOTE: Powerrox93 (whose claim I am beginning to think plausible)
VOTE: Seacore

Look at the way he talks about Jedo the Jedi. He both finds JJ scummy (#144 again) and doesn't (#173) and "that looks like a contradiction, but it isn't really" (#187). Like I said before, I don't like the way he's playing, and rereading him in ISO I

really

don't like the way he's playing.

Obviously the easy case is if he catches scum. He does that, and the only way he's scum is if there are multiple factions - and the NKs will let us know whether that is true or not.

Otherwise: well, we're back to scumhunting 101 - lynch people who seem scummy, whatever their claims. The only reason we postpone is to reduce the harm caused by a mistake.

Erm, if he catches scum he still isn't confirmed town. You realize that... right?

...point.

Honestly?

I hammered because we were 46 minutes to deadline - I thought it was more important to make damn sure we didn't no-lynch than have the extra time. And if you check the time-stamps? LlamaFluff didn't lock the thread until 10:06 -

after

the deadline. We didn't lose any time at all.

When asking a question like that, I'd assume she wouldn't want it answered any other way.

That was a rhetorical flourish. I don't know why you find it strange.

Vote: Packbat

This vote will not move until you follow through on your promises. And every day, I will push you harder.
I promise I will have you lynched in 5 days if you give me absolutely nothing.

Fair enough. I'll do my best, but I haven't been 100% for weeks - you should see what's been happening to my online chess rating.

Packbat shouldn't be voting until he's caught up.
And since catchup has quite literally halted, I'm almost itching to lynch him again.

I'm swish with a seacore lynch
had a small gut read of mafioso since he self voted first post
VOTE: Secore

Small gut read = lynch?
Hell no. Do better than this.

I would gladly see Set or Sea lynched today, they're both as bad as each other for their distancing-dance.
Vote: Seacore

Okay. Please put it on Set, since the Sea wagon is terrible.

Last post prior to my V/LA

I'm gonna VOTE: Seacore now since I think that he's the scummies person around ATM. He's behavior overall seems scummy to me. TS's latest post on the other hand is something that won't place him in my town-read pile.

Look, yet another thought out vote.

GOOD VOTES:
Set - OYEA she's the competing wagon I wonder why she's voting Seacore?

BAD VOTES:
Everyone else.

[Nachomamma8]

GOOD VOTES:
Set - OYEA she's the competing wagon I wonder why she's voting Seacore?

BAD VOTES:
Everyone else.

good to know we're only up against one scum :/

What?

Now I'm curious. Why is this?

Lack of a good third wheel on the Set-Sea scumwagon.
Plus, I'm a fucking free lynch for scum if they lynch right today. They would not decide that today is the busapalooza day.

[Nachomamma8]

Packbat, AV.
Hell, maybe you.

Why are you concerned about my reads when your strongest is a slight gut read?

[Nachomamma8]

Hmmm... Good point.

Still don't find it likely, considering Sea's "NACH I WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE END OF THE EARTH" ploy, and Set's immediate switch to Sea when shit got hot.

[Nachomamma8]

Plus that Sea wagon is TERRIBLE.

[Nachomamma8]

TWISTED NOOOOOOOOO

[Nachomamma8]

In your line of thinking, PR only works if he's fully outed...which also makes him pretty useless. Do I assume from this that you think he just messed up his claim by accident yesterday?

Sure. I haven't really saw strong scum reasoning for PR to change his claim in the middle of the night, and it doesn't seem all that unbelievable.

Can you point to where you were pressuring Jedo for his hammer specifically?

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

Set not indicating the scope in his claim straight away = scumfakeclaiming

>.>

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

No reason to lynch Set just yet. Don't really believe her claim, but that doesn't mean that the hammer has to immediately be brought down.

This post is shameless prod-dodging, and I apologize for that - I'm about to leave for a concert now, but tomorrow or Monday I can try to skim the thread quickly looking for the obvious stuff. Obviously my post-by-post notes are not going to be finished by next week's deadline.

I WANT TO BURN THIS WITH FIRE.
GI WHY NOT.
WHY OH GOD NOT.

[Nachomamma8]

I want a counterclaim. Set drawing an NK at this point in time would be a godsend, and there's a 90% chance of there being a protective role out there SOMEWHERE.

So a full doctor is neighbors with a FUCKING WATCHER?

Can someone mail me a hammer?

I'm the only person who gets to gamble in this getup, you here?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Doombunny

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Setael

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho - I'm a vig. You fuck us out of a lynch. Two mislynches to town loss is fucking shit balance. Why aren't we lynching you as scum?

Because I've been more useful than every other player in the game. Because I DID manage to read your slot correctly, and disable the wagon before he was outed. Because I played a big part in getting scum lynched so far, and I'll continue to play a big part in getting scum lynched. Because you love me.

Forgot to call V/LA for the weekend in this game, doing that now.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kryptinen

My strongest read. Seacore is next strongest, and I put him second partly because some of the reason I suspect him is based on Krypt being scum; and I'm seesawing between Doom and LF, so I'm going to wait and see what happens there during today.

Vote: AV

[Nachomamma8]

Why is Seacore town again?

Easy. Look at Setael-Seacore interactions after they were called out for being scumbuddies. When something like that happens, usually both parties either back off (they didn't), or both parties intensified their attacks. Double bussers never ever ever keep things in the middle ground; they are too eager to make it look like something it's not. Setael intensified her attacks on Seacore as IF she was going for the double bus, but Seacore returned the attacks half-heartedly, then jumped off and started sheeping me. The decision to switch tactics is not something scum-Seacore would do since it was apparent at that point Setael-Seacore was going to be lynched, and that move would completely do the effort of the double bus.

Grey, did Packbat claim commuter to you?

^LF gains towncred if Glass' neighbours can confirm his role was claimed pregame.

He did.

@Nacho - There is a question i NEED to ask you tonight. Remind me if I forget ok?

Yes sir.

I believe he also claimed to Nacho, so perhaps Nacho can weigh in on whether he sees it as a towntell or not.

It's definitely a towntell.
There's no scum in this playerlist that would give him that fakeclaim, and he sure as hell wouldn't think it up himself.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of AV/Regfan?

[Nachomamma8]

Grey
Seacore
Feysal

These are the people who I'm confident in being town, meaning that the strike area is:
Krypt/AV/Reg/Llama

I need a reread of this game since nothing is clicking how it's supposed to, so...
An interesting piece of VCA is that every one of those people were on the Quaorath lynch on D1, meaning that if Llama isn't scum, all three scum voted Quaorath.
Considering Llama was my strongest townread out of the group, we have some digging to do.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA

Like, no time to post now.
Even you guys aren't worth a dollar a minute.

The krypt wagon is not one I agree with.
But if you're looking to make a dumb lynch, I guess that's where you aim it.
But if you lynch Seacore, I will side with scum in LyLo. Like a douche.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm back from my V/LA...

Will start my reread tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Krypt, I see you. Claim.

[Nachomamma8]

Nina Avery, VT.

[Nachomamma8]

My main reason for claiming Survivor was to see if I could avoid the nightkill and still play brilliantly.
I felt no problem claiming the truth to Glass/TS since I figured if they were scum, they would kill me. From their perspectives, I would have no reason to gambit Survivor as a VT, and thus would kill me in fear of being a PR.

I am also not ready for Regfan to die just yet, considering this is the first time I've had time on my hands in a while.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: Are you saying that you consciously decided to attempt a WIFOM feat against your neighbours by claiming VT to them? If my maths is right, your gambit had those protown repercussions at MOST 2/12 (~16%) of the time. I.e. you potentially pulled kills off PRs if your neighbours were scum, but the chance you were instead helping to direct them to PRs was much higher than that. Did you consider this at all?

No. I'm saying that the plan was to be alive, kick some ass, win the game.
I used those "protown reprecussions" as justification for if my neighbors were scum.
And hell, it's not like the scum wasn't going to be paranoid of me being a PR just because I claimed survivor.

[Nachomamma8]

So this would not be solely about Regfan, I do have some questions for Nacho too. What made you claim Erik Jacques instead of your real name? Changing your name was not necessary for purposes of the gambit, and I have wondered if either of the names was part of a scum false claim. Secondly, you said last night that you still thought AV was scum, despite kryptinen flipping scum. I don't see how that could be possible. Can you explain?

I wanted something that sounded a little foreign.
And YOU might not, but I definitely do. I will explain in a little bit.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, why AV's tunnel on krypt doesn't make him probtown:

1) It was opportunistic and sloppy.
(A): Doesn't mention why he's decided to stop voting krypt, and the switch itself is pretty awkward; he hadn't mentioned krypt for sometime, and was sort of floating around for a little while before this.
(B): After the Quaorath lynch. Seems like an early attempt to get someone lynched for bad play, manages to distance from his krypt read a little more, but it remains his "second strongest read".
(C): Here, AV pretty much uses krypt as a placeholder vote. There's a short period of questioning, a reread, and then... a Seacore vote, and no reasoning as to why suspicion of krypt was dropped off.

There's also this handy quote wall:

Spoiler: Tunneling

Maybe I'm just a grumpy asshole cos it took so long to get an answer.

I'm still not happy with Krypt but it could be tunnelvision or irritation at having to keep repeating my questions to get a straight answer

My tunnelling could be to blame for this.

I am aware that I may be biased due to my frustrations at having to work so hard to get an answer yesterday.

Maybe I'm blinkered by tunnel vision after all...

I think that if AV was genuine, he wouldn't fencesit on his suspicions so much; he'd push to get krypt lynched with all of his might, or he'd consider her town. And I seriously hope that I'm not the only one who finds it suspicious that AV couldn't get krypt lynched for three days, but the moment someone else starts a wagon, krypt gets lynched. I've never seen a town on town or town on scum tunneling session go on this long without one of the two dying; the only times it occurs is when both are scum, and neither really wants the other lynched.

I also find it pretty strange that krypt never turned on AV, or really made the effort to turn him off her. Maybe it's just because she was newscum, but she really didn't toss any dirt on him (apparently not even in QTs either), and she never tried to buddy up with him or anything. This tells me that she didn't perceive him as a threat, or that she really didn't know how to react.

[Nachomamma8]

I also went through krypt's ISO while making a post on AV, and I'm pretty sure Regfan is town.

Krypt was absolutely not the bussing type, and she sucked at distancing (look at Set/krypt interactions for proof of that). Notice how she doesn't even attack Set when it's pretty damn obvious she's going down regardless of what she does

I don't think Set's claim is a thing where we can out think the mod. The roles were most likely random, so there's no way to draw any conclusions out of them. And a watcher and a doctor in the same team are not unheard of.

All of her votes were on confirmed town, except for the Regfan vote. Do I think that she would suddenly learn how to distance the moment it's her time to die? No, not at all.

krypt's scumflip also does a pretty good job of clearing Seacore, I think. The "one scum out of Set/Sea" seemed like something she knew because of inside info; there really wasn't any reasoning behind it except for "gut", and yet she was pretty damn confident about it.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, so:

Feysal is town due to claim. TS never would've came up with that in a million-billion years.
Regfan is town due to the whole krypt-faildistance thing.
Llama is town due to the scumteam already having their "looktown" powerrole.

Meaning that it's between Seacore/AV, but Seacore is probably town due to krypt interactions + the whole trying to get me NK'ed thing. I don't think that Seacorescum would be so confident that I was survivor/nonPR as to play that little WIFOM game. More later, but I'm 95% sure in this:

Vote: AV

[Nachomamma8]

No comments on me thinking Reg is town, or that AV is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

AV got it!

I see zero idea for town to actually lie about their flavor name. What difference does it make if he says he is Mr. X or Mrs. Y for that flavor? Then again why would scum lie about it... but I see it as slightly more likely that scum has a safeclaim name for whatever reason and messed it up.

How as scum do you think I messed it up? Do you think I "accidentally" posted my fakeclaim and my realclaim right next to each other while claiming to both you and Feysal? And do you really think scum HAVE safeclaim names? Are Luke Bronston and Maggie Johnson obvious scum names to you?

When I claimed survivor, I created a fakeclaim. That included fake flavor, and a fake name. It's not a slip to do something thoroughly.

[Nachomamma8]

I quite clearly do mention it. Powerrox's vote was godawful.

But you used the vote as a way of getting out of an awkward situation (having your vote on krypt but not really having anything to say about her), and getting out of a promised reread. If PR's vote was so damn bad, you wouldn't just coast by on that, would you? You'd follow up on him. Did you? No. You sat on his wagon until he claimed, and then you switched back to krypt, no explanation.

Krypt was still my second strongest scumread, but I saw ZERO reason for TownPowerrox to claim the way he did. Putting your claim out in bits and pieces "accidentally", made it look like a surefire fakeclaim.

The krypt read was pretty heavily weakened though, considering you opened it up with the whole "This might just be me tunneling again...", and the last thing you said on her was that she was leaving your scumlist because she as making a few decent points. Was there any explanation for that? No.

The reason is self-evident. Because Seacore was in that spat with Setael, which was the scummiest thing in-thread at that time.

I don't think the reason is self-evident. Why Seacore over Setael?

Shall we just ignore everything else I've said about why I found him scummy?
Or shall we just counterbalance my attempts to get him lynched with your persistent attempts to derail the Krypt wagon yesterday?
You helped get Setael - the goon - lynched, but you were not interested in the Krypt wagon in the slightest.

You said a lot about why he was scummy, but you kept offsetting it with those little blurbs.
I tried to derail the krypt wagon by getting her buddy lynched. Somehow, I don't think that's too bad of a crime.

A significant part of my initial suspicions and the reason that I focused on her for so long were the N0 interactions. But I didn't want to out-and-out say that because I was curious who else she'd try to neighbourize and didn't want to influence that, or how she talked in it.

And how were you expecting to know who else she'd try to neighbourize?
And you were okay letting her go on and continue her business even though she was using the QTs as rolefishing grounds? Because you were curious?

So if I sounded non-committal, it was only because I was pushing her with half the case, and felt I should downplay my tunnelling because I didn't want to admit why I was doing it.

Oh lord.
You purposely didn't push the case that hard because you didn't want to be questioned on it?

I also continuously tried to get her lynched, but barely anyone else was interested in the wagon. It's not surprising it took this long to get her lynched when no one else really wanted to lynch her other than me for a long, long time.

They didn't want to because you were downplaying your case FAR too well.

Also worth noting is her fear of major wagons. She didn't vote for me because she barely ever took a significant place on the major wagons (the exception was the PR wagon that you yourself started). She never voted for Reg yesterday until there were no other votes there. She didn't hammer Seacore when she had the chance; hell, she didn't vote him even when the wagon shifted to Setael. She called out the hammer vote on Quar as scummy, which shows that in her mind, voting in a prominent position on major (mislynch) wagons is a cause for suspicion. This explains why she stayed off mine far better than your theory which could be said of anyone here.

Fair enough.

Are you suggesting scum would kill you off over any of these players?

Hmmm... Power was a claimed, limited watcher who the scum didn't kill when he first claim FULL watcher.
GreyICE was a vigilante who killed his lurking neighbor over a claimed survivor, and who didn't kill N1.

I wouldn't be surprised if I was killed over either of those.

Personally, I'm wondering WHY scum would move themselves during the night. The last scum does NOT need that sort of attention in LyLo.

[Nachomamma8]

What's not been explained?

How you could just completely drop the krypt suspicion while going after Powerrox, then returning to it after he claimed watcher like nothing had changed. I suppose that's my biggest problem with it.

When I put her back at second scummiest at the start of D2, things had changed. For one thing, she didn't neighbour me N1 like she said she'd do. For another her Packbat hammer comment. For a third, I re-read her in ISO and saw the badthings in her interaction with Jedo. If it hadn't been for PR's failclaim distracting me, she'd have been my #1 suspect.

Then why did you try to downplay your suspicions in the beginning?

Because they were guilty of the exact same thing and his wagon had the most votes on it. I was going away for a week and wanted my vote to be useful. I also tried getting support for a Kryptinen wagon that day before I left.

They were both guilty of the same tell, but they both did things other than that. You didn't take any of either's past play into account?

No. You tried to derail it by getting me mislynched.
And don't even imply you were suspicious of me and Kryptinen being buddies that day. That's a blatant lie, or you wouldn't have called the wagon dumb and stubbornly refused to get on board with it.

I wasn't impying that. I was implying that you were scum.
But that really wasn't the important part of the post, you know.

No. Read what I said.
I didn't push it too hard because that would have shown my hand regarding her role. The last two points you've quoted are connected (that's why they're in the same paragraph). Are you being dense on purpose?

That doesn't explain why you purposely downplayed your case with all of the "I might just be tunneling" though. If you didn't want to show your hand regarding your role, all you had to do was not say "krypt is a rolefishing neighborizer".

So maybe I overdid it, but the points were still there. No one else wanted to pick up on the points I was making about her actually being scummy, it would have been quite easy for someone to say "No, AV, it's not just you're tunnelling, she is scummy." That wouldn't have made me show that I was onto something from the N0 topic. Also, fuck it, let's not pretend to be bigger than we are here, when I'm the only one saying it, well, I doubted myself. But I wanted to keep pushing the case because I still thought she was scum, and in recent games I'm trying to stick to my guns more when I think I've found scum (I used to be very self-doubtful and back off cases too easily). The fact I still wanted to push it, with people telling me I was tunnelling, made me doubt it again, which made me want to keep tunnelling which made me doubt it, etc etc etc.

You're far evolved from a player who's unsure of himself to the extent that he has to announce it in thread. And if people aren't buying what you're selling, you don't float around the thread and half-ass it until someone picks it up; you push it harder and call everyone idiots, or you drop the case and find someone else. It just reads like serious bussing when a scum has stayed in your 1st/2nd slot throughout the entire freaking game.

Actually, I take your point on PR. (I find it strange he was killed if neither of his neighbours have been killed. Maybe scum had their eyes on killing LF down the line after he hinted at being a PR?) But I don't think scum would kill off a claimed survivor on the first night, in case you were a survivor.
And Grey was confirmed town. If you think you'd be killed over a confirmed townie then I want whatever it is you're smoking.

(PR wasn't killed N1)
And Grey wasn't confirmed town, he was a confirmed killer. But point taken regardless.

Clearly either we're TvT'ing here, or you're trying to mislynch me while white knighting Regfan.

Clearly we're either both town, or one of us are scum. I think that's how arguments usually work when there's one scum remaining.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry, I have a tendacy to avoid looking into a game when I'm near clueless over who the final scum is, I promise I will force myself to sit down, read through this properly and state my thoughts in the next 24 hours though.

Regfan, don't lurk for years and years. You got pissed when I did it, so don't you pull this on me now.

Yeah, I'm kinda lurking til others make a decision. AV is now my third choice. I'd be happy with Reg dying today and Nacho tomorrow.

Town has this game in the bag.
Chaining lynches is pretty much the only way we could fuck it up. So take things on a day to day basis, please?
Why is Reg scummier than I am? Why am I scummier than AV? Why is AV on your scumlist when you're perfectly okay with risking the game on him being scum?

Sorry, I have a tendacy to avoid looking into a game when I'm near clueless over who the final scum is, I promise I will force myself to sit down, read through this properly and state my thoughts in the next 24 hours though.

Regfan, don't lurk for years and years. You got pissed when I did it, so don't you pull this on me now.

It occurs to me that the scum now need two mislynches to win, and that means if the last scum is in our lynch pool, they would need to ensure there were at least two other players lynchable to avoid a one-on-one with town. So far, I'd say it is Nacho whose case on AV looks most like an attempt to introduce another potential mislynch.

And why is that?

Yeah, I'm kinda lurking til others make a decision. AV is now my third choice. I'd be happy with Reg dying today and Nacho tomorrow.

Town has this game in the bag.
Chaining lynches is pretty much the only way we could fuck it up. So take things on a day to day basis, please?
Why is Reg scummier than I am? Why am I scummier than AV? Why is AV on your scumlist when you're perfectly okay with risking the game on him being scum?

[Nachomamma8]

On my phone right now, would appreciate the chance to post from my computer though.

Just in case I am not...

Yes, we are not in Lylo yet. That doesn't mean that we have to rush to get there. Regfan is a dumb lynch when AV and I are engaged in our little spat; if you lynch one of us today, then you will have more information to analyze later. We also won't lose on the off-chance that someone outside of reg+av is scum; after all, if we take av and myself to lylo at this point, we lose. At least give us time to work this conflict out in case av really is town.

It frustrates me that no one has examined krypt's interactions with her buddies except for me. I think its a fairly strong point that she refused to even distance from Setael when she was going down, and her turning on Regfan before it was clear that she was going down was not the type of move scumkrypt would pull on her scumbuddy.

Before the day ends, I want to read advance wars, I want to reread seacore-setael reactions, and I want to iso doom and regfan again. I would also like to get somewhere in this AV debate so I can be sure going into the night if you all are really that ready to lynch reg. Suppose I will try typing up responses even though typing on a phone I am not used to is a bitch...

[Nachomamma8]

How you could just completely drop the krypt suspicion while going after Powerrox, then returning to it after he claimed watcher like nothing had changed. I suppose that's my biggest problem with it.

You're not making sense. It's quite clear that I

didn't

completely drop it by the fact that I

returned to it like nothing had changed

. PR was being very scummy, moreso than Krypt at the time. When PR claimed Watcher, a

confirmable role

, it made sense to leave him be for the night and so I returned to the person who I was still suspicious of. I'd have just unvoted, or looked elsewhere, if I'd "completely dropped" my suspicions of Krypt.

By completely dropped, I meant stopped following up on suspicions. Normally, when a person still holds strong suspicions other than the one they are currently pushing, they don't ignore those strong suspicions. They push both in tandem, call them a scumteam, question both at the same time, whatever. But when you pushed PR, that followup on krypt really never occured. Yes, PR was scummy, but the almost complete dissapation of that krypt suspicion seem more fabricated and planned simply because a suspicion that carried you through Day 3 was able to be turned off and on like a light.

Then why did you try to downplay your suspicions in the beginning?

How many times are you going to have me go over this?
(a) Krypt neighbours AV
(b) AV is very suspicious of Krypt.
(c) AV has inside info on Krypt
(d) AV wants to keep this a secret from scum for as long as possible because:
(i) It can be used to confirm people further down the line
(ii) It can catch Krypt out in a lie if she claims a different role
(iii) Krypt might continue to act scummy in her extra QTs, thus gaining the wagon more support
(iv) It doesn't give her a chance to STOP neighbourizing and call me a liar
(e) AV is told he is tunnelling
(f) AV uses his doubt as a mask for his additional info

First of all, I have a major problem with your explanation because you are trying to use scum's night actions as a way to explain your own scummy actions. Town should never intentionally weaken their own suspicions of a player just because they want to keep some they think is scum's role hidden. Secondly, even if you managed to convince yourself that keeping krypts role hidden was a good idea, I don't see why you felt it was necessary to downplay your suspicions to do that. If you were questioned on your tunneling, then all you had to do was argue the points you did have. You didn't have to constantly pull the "well I might just be tunneling" card to do that. The reason I would think to keep krypts role from scum was because she might be a town pr and you wouldn't want her to get killed if it could be used for good. But this never crossed your mind?
As for the reasons you provided, I don't understand how (i) works, (ii) is OK, (iii) is weird because you could also gain more support from not downplaying your suspicions, and (iv) is just fucking scummy because that would mean you could stop scum from using their power AND getting into a 1v1 with scum early. The most interesting part of those reasons, though, is that all of them pretty much assume krypt scum even though you are trying to tell me about how unsure you were about it...

They were both guilty of the same tell, but they both did things other than that. You didn't take any of either's past play into account?

No. I treated their double-bus fiasco as the most important bit. This was during a period when I had limited time on the internet so I didn't have a chance to go back and re-read the entire game/those players in ISO. Besides, the whole reason I found them both suspicious was because I thought they were DOUBLE-BUSSING so I didn't think it mattered which one I voted; I simply went for the larger wagon. When I came back from holiday, you'll see I then voted Setael because he was scummier than Seacore during the time I'd been away.

Fair enough. Although the little "look at me voting set when I got back" is off; why are you pointing that out?

I wasn't impying that. I was implying that you were scum.
But that really wasn't the important part of the post, you know.

Then what was it? You're defending not voting Krypt by telling me you wanted to mislynch me, essentially. You straight up called her wagon dumb, but if you think I'm scum because I was bussing her, why didn't you think this and support the Krypt wagon yesterday?

No. I am saying that you are scum, and thus krypts scumbuddy.
I didn't vote krypt yesterday because I never reevaluated the town read of krypt I had in the beginning. And I really didn't feel the need, considering how scummily you were pushing her at the time.
The important part of that post was more attacks on your disclaimers. The rest was a smartass comment in response to the belief that you seem to hold that wrong=scum.

You're far evolved from a player who's unsure of himself to the extent that he has to announce it in thread. And if people aren't buying what you're selling, you don't float around the thread and half-ass it until someone picks it up; you push it harder and call everyone idiots, or you drop the case and find someone else. It just reads like serious bussing when a scum has stayed in your 1st/2nd slot throughout the entire freaking game.

"Far evolved," eh? This is only my third town game after SAIII; in the first one I was killed N1 (Cults vs Masons which you were in, right?), in the other (Advance Wars Mafia 2), whilst I persistently tried telling people my case on scum (Fate), he just killed me off and no one else carried the torch. I also maintained a degree of paranoia about being wrong despite having an investigation result on him for that game too. So. Doubting myself is just my town game. As scum I know who's town and who's not so I can rid myself of that uncertainty. vOv

I will check your play in those games, but I've never regarded you as a player who couldn't stick with his convictions. In your first game, I killed you because you seemed like the type of player who would dtick with his convictions, and had a chance of forming the right ones. Certainly your confidence hasn't degraded from then...

Clearly either we're TvT'ing here, or you're trying to mislynch me while white knighting Regfan.

Clearly we're either both town, or one of us are scum. I think that's how arguments usually work when there's one scum remaining.

Well, I said more than that, didn't I? I was more concerned with the "WK'ing Regfan whilst pushing my mislynch" angle.

...which is saying nothing more than 'we are both town or one is scum'.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum aren't stupid, they'll kill Llama or me tonight since we're not in question any more. Meaning we'll be left with exactly the same information as today.

I could be third in that group, given that I don't see a whole lot of suspicion my way either. AV probably not, as remote as the possibility of him being scum is, the scum will want the lynch pool as large as possible, if we mislynch today.[/quote]
Prediction: You hammer Regfan, scumkill Llama. You refuse to reevaluate, seacore gets lazy and doesn't decide to read. ScumAV wins.

[Nachomamma8]

It frustrates me that no one has examined krypt's interactions with her buddies except for me. I think its a fairly strong point that she refused to even distance from Setael when she was going down, and her turning on Regfan before it was clear that she was going down was not the type of move scumkrypt would pull on her scumbuddy.

I examined her interactions with Regfan quite extensively. They were not good. Also, Krypt mentioned as much intent to hammer Setael (without doing so) as she did with Seacore, so I'm not sure how much faith you're putting in the "lack of Setael-distance" tell.[/quote]
She expressed intent to hammer, but never really came close to actually hammering.
That doesn't really refute the point, but I suppose it is a moot point since deadline is so close...

[Nachomamma8]

Why the fuck was it the right thing to do? No lynching would've brought us down to 5, and regfan would've had another day to fight the lynch...

[Nachomamma8]

Okay. Going with something unconventional.

Vote: Nachomamma8

Why?
Both llama and feysal left me last night with "av is town". At this point, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about it. But, I can't fight Seacore scum if I'm paranoid about AV. So, I just want him to post. If he's scum, he outplayed the fuck out of me and I won't get him lynched anyways.

So, please. Ease the paranoia, lemon man.

[Nachomamma8]

...except now.

[Nachomamma8]

Mmm... What's the rush, Seacore? Are you usually so jumpy in these types of situations...?

As for the rest of you, I have a proposal. If AV gets back here and the game is still going, I request a five day period of me+seacore interaction. The hardest thing about being scum in LyLo is not knowing how the townies are swaying. So, during this period, Seacore will feel the pressure of not having his scumteam behind him, and will flail and flail and flail. As town, I'm sure he would flail a bit too, but I'm willing to bet the game on him showing true colors when isolated...

As scum, there is no tangible benefit to this plan except for stall-time, but I would hope you would hear me out even if you think my scummyness is a miguel sure thing.

[Nachomamma8]

Waiting, Seacore. It's almost like you know AV isn't going to hammer me, or something crazy like that. We have all the time in the world, you and I.

[Nachomamma8]

I never knew you enjoyed quickhammering in LyLo. Mind providing links?

[Nachomamma8]

No link? Figured as much. Now be quiet and wait for AV... I mean, five days for lylo is not unreasonable in the least bit.

[Nachomamma8]

That game had scum who were told they were masons, no reveal, and magna was lynched day 1. Doesn't count.

[Nachomamma8]

Old forum: 67.222.17.61/forum by the way. Just so you have no excuses...

[Nachomamma8]

Glad you had fun.

Still waiting for AV and feysal to approve/deny/win the game.

[Nachomamma8]

Ready to have a sad beer, Seacore?

[Nachomamma8]

FEYSAL WHY

[Nachomamma8]

This game was really, really fun.

And I also think its a damn good example of just how often I can be wrong in one game...

[Nachomamma8]

I don't regret claiming survivor at all.
Will maybe explain why later.