Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[Setael]

Sorry about the wall. I promise the rest of my posts will be much shorter.

Unvote

. It's time for questions. Seacore, there seems to be wagon forming against you. Why do you think that is? Who do you find more suspicious: the person who started that wagon (the second vote) or the person who officially made it a wagon (the third vote)?

I think it's definitely the person who started the wagon, ie, the second vote. We should definitely lynch that guy.

Seacore is clearly making light of it here. The only way I see for this to be interpreted is that either he thinks Krypt was trying to be funny and is posting that he gets the joke, or he doesn't think Krypt was trying to be funny, so he's poking fun at Krypt. There's nothing in this post that indicates Seacore thought either possibility was scummy.

So then AV posts asking Krypt a bunch of questions and only after that does Seacore vote Krypt and post all the reasons he thinks Krypt's post was scummy. I don't like how it went down. If Seacore really thought Krypt's post was scummy, I don't think he'd have posted anything like post 43, and he definitely wouldn't have posted JUST that and not said anything about it being scummy until an hour later. I think he realized it would be more to his benefit to try to paint it into a scum tell and so he reversed his initial reaction which was to just joke about it.

I didn't get a scum vibe from Jedo's post 60 (where he votes Krypt) originally, since it seems unlikely as a scum move, but now that he's defended the post with "too scummy to be scum," I think it was premeditated.

That looks like L-1 from Nobody, so be careful with the hammer.

Huge red flag. Jedo hasn't given a reason to be on the wagon and has only said he thinks Krypt ISN'T scummy. There's no way a townie wouldn't unvote here.

Jedo's excuse for not unvoting:

I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon. Plus, since I stated she is at L-1, there is no excuse for an accidental hammer. Whoever hammers better have good reasoning.

So evidently Jedo would have been fine with Krypt being lynched on page 2 (even though he supposedly thinks Krypt is town) as long as someone had good reasoning. This is insane.

Packbat votes NS for his Krypt vote. I hadn't realized Krypt was L-1 until Jedo pointed it out. I assumed that NS didn't realize it either, since otherwise it doesn't make sense for him to put her at L-1 for such a weak reason and he definitely wouldn't have neglected to mention that he was putting her at L-1. But then NS posts and makes it clear that my assumption was wrong.

Okay, firstly, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO WARN EVERYONE when a vote is at L-1. Pay attention, do something for yourselves for once.

Secondly, thanks Doombunny for calling out Krypt on the "missing things" thing, except, wait -- you

didn't mention my question that she also avoided.

Trying to single me out for something?

Thirdly, Krypt, stop avoiding questions.

Fourthly, Doom has now replaced Krypt as scummiest.

unvote

Vote: DoomBunny

So not only did he evidently KNOW he was putting her at L-1, he didn't think it was necessary to state that was the case. As if this weren't bad enough, his reason for voting DoomBunny is so bad, it's like he's screaming "Don't look at me! Look at someone else! DoomBunny, look at DoomBunny!"

Post 99 Seacore dismisses the Jedo case, and says that the only point against him is his Krypt vote. Blatant misrep of the case.

Scum vibes from TS' post 104. He asks AV if he's happy with his Kryp vote and what he thinks of the other 2 wagons when I definitely can't tell you what TS thinks of anyone except maybe NS.

NS follows Seacore's glowing example in post 110, misrepping his case as solely being about his not announcing the L-1 when this is clearly not true.

By post 118, it's clear that AV is hardcore tunneling on Krypt and saying nothing about everything else that's going on. AV, your thoughts on

anything

else?

I put my vote down randomly, but I don't move it at the slightest whim or defense because I might have accidentally hit scum. krypt didn't give a good enough defense for me to move my vote.

This statement struck me as odd. He's clearly talking about his play in general, saying that once he random votes, he doesn't move it without good reason, but that excuse doesn't work in this game at all since his Krypt vote wasn't random.

My one remark is that if I saw someone else playing like this, I would think it is so obvscum as to be townie.

Seriously? You're saying we can't be suspicious of you because you're too scummy to be scum?

Nacho's posts are spot on, except for this:

NS: "Tell me why you don't like the RVS but participated anyways!" ~ Terrible question. Terrible L-1 vote. Also, the "slowly" bit is condescending and makes you sound like you're inferring krypt is flailing. So, why put more pressure on someone who's not handling the pressure they've got?

I don't follow the logic. If you think someone is scum that isn't handling the pressure well, how does it make any sense that you should avoid voting them in order to not put more pressure on them?

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

Seacore's defense of Jedo is scummier than the swimming pool of a foreclosed house in Florida; SC+JJ explains why SC attacked kryptinen's scrutiny of his wagon, being as that wagon was half scum.

THIS.

I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them.

Whoa, there. If you found some things scummy about him, why did you completely dismiss the case in your post 99 and why did you never mention these things you find scummy until now? (And still not say what exactly they are.)

hmm

My vote is on NS right now, but I did previously vote Jedo
Nacho has reminded me that Jedo is a safer bet than NS for scum. I don't really mind which is lynched, but there certainly seems a better case for Jedo now, what with all that wifom and paranoia

VOTE: Jedo

L-2 yes?

This post is all kinds of scummy. Before voting Jedo, he reminds us that he was previously voting Jedo, and then hides behind Nacho's posts as a reason to vote him. The whole thing is just terrible.

I don't move from wagon to wagon. I pick a wagon on day 1 and ride it. It's kind of a "guilty until proven innocent" sort of gig. Not that I join because they are scummy--like I said, it's random--but since it was random, they have as much chance of being scum as any other random choice. Until they over-turn that with good reasoning, town tells, or a claim, I'm not going to let them go.

The problem with this, once again, is that this is not what you did in this game at all. If this is what you had done in this game, you'd have stayed on NS, as he was your random vote. Instead, you switched from NS to Seacore saying, "We need a wagon." THEN you switched to Krypt. So in this game you DID move from wagon to wagon. You DIDN'T pick a wagon day 1 and ride it. You didn't pick someone and do a "guilty until proven innocent". So the question is, if this is what you always do, why did you not do it to NS, your actual random vote? And why are you trying to convince us you DID do it to Krypt when that wasn't the case?

vote: Jedo

That's L-1

Town

Packbat
Krypt
DoomBunny
Glass

Scum

Jedo
Seacore
NS
TS

Null reads on everyone else.

[Setael]

The problem with this, once again, is that this is not what you did in this game at all. If this is what you had done in this game, you'd have stayed on NS, as he was your random vote. Instead, you switched from NS to Seacore saying, "We need a wagon." THEN you switched to Krypt. So in this game you DID move from wagon to wagon. You DIDN'T pick a wagon day 1 and ride it. You didn't pick someone and do a "guilty until proven innocent". So the question is, if this is what you always do, why did you not do it to NS, your actual random vote? And why are you trying to convince us you DID do it to Krypt when that wasn't the case?

Good point. I'm happy to address this. The first vote is just some sort of thing that's done. It's all just joking with each other and making stupid comments about scumminess or whatnot. I don't even count that. I did get on the Seacore wagon to try to get one started. I did not switch to krypt until it was no longer a wagon because it had died. If the same had somehow happened to krypt, I wouldn't consider it "wagon hopping" to move off something which had stopped. The "guilty until proven innocent" is for the wagon, not that posturing vote at the beginning.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't actually choose a random person, you choose the first wagon to gain steam or I guess you could say a "random" wagon that is gaining steam if others exist and you pick one of them. You then vote the player being wagoned, regardless of your read on them, and then you don't move your vote until you have really good reason. Yes? What confused me is the fact that you have repeatedly insisted that your vote was random. It's not. The only real "random" vote is the early vote, the "joking/stupid comments" one. The vote you won't move is actually calculated and not random at all, since you only want to place it on someone who's wagon is going strong and who could possibly get lynched.

Assuming I've got that right, here's the problem I have with it. It exonerates you fully from any responsibility for the wagon and for the lynch if the player is lynched. You say you're not seeing the scumminess but you vote just to get a good wagon going. Then you supposedly didn't like Krypt's defense so you stayed on the wagon even when it was L-1. However, you didn't say this or post what you didn't like about her defense until pressed. At the time you pointed out the wagon was at L-1, if Krypt would've been lynched and flipped town you could've shrugged off all responsibility since you never gave a reason to be on the wagon in the first place. IMO a townie in this position would either have unvoted or given reason for staying on the wagon. You did neither. If you really did think her defense was bad and therefore were happy staying on a L-1 wagon, you should've provided your reasons for thinking she was scummy and said "No one hammer!" Instead you said "careful with the hammer" and later said that you'd have been fine with someone hammering (before you'd said anything except "I don't think Krypt is scummy") as long as they gave a good reason for doing so.

Does somebody now need to unvote because you put me at L-1? Shouldn't you have not put your vote on me to put me at L-1? No! That's dumb.

The difference is, everyone on your wagon thinks your scum. Also, it's no longer page 2.

Activity level is a poor argument against Power, since so many are in the same boat. Nacho was gone for quite awhile, Quag and TS have posted very little real content, Fuzzy posted absolutely nothing. However, this is not the only point against Power and his Nacho vote claiming that's the case is terrible. (This seems to be a recurring theme in this game, pretending the case on you is its weakest point).

This, for example, is a really good point:

This post is scummy because he's acting like he's provided any real content thus far. He's promising to search the games for thing's he's overlooked, but he hasn't even offered an opinion on anything, really. He hasn't commented on the Jedo wagon since it's gotten more serious, he STILL hasn't commented on krypt, and he hasn't made an original comment about the person he's voting yet.

I also really can't see how bad formulation of a post can make someone accidentally say "I am going to read everything now" when they meant "I am going to look for things I missed now".

@Power - can you address this point? You can't write off Nacho's case as lurking. You said you would comment on the Krypt case and never did and you haven't said much about Jedo either. Plus, I agree with this point about your post 162.

I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him

, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them.

I don't find Jedo that scummy.

I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

@Seacore - Can you reconcile these 2 comments please? The only thing between them is your vote on Power.

[Setael]

I'm way behind. Will read up and post tonight.

[Setael]

[

1: So not only did he evidently KNOW he was putting her at L-1,

] he didn't think it was necessary to state that was the case. As if this weren't bad enough, his reason for voting DoomBunny is so bad, [

2: it's like he's screaming "Don't look at me! Look at someone else! DoomBunny, look at DoomBunny!"

]

1: What exactly is giving you the impression that Nobody Special knew his vote was L-1? I'm not seeing it.

His first post after putting her at L-1 (after getting yelled at for not stating it was L-1) was the following:

Okay, firstly, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO WARN EVERYONE when a vote is at L-1. Pay attention, do something for yourselves for once.

If he didn't realize his vote was L-1, he'd have said so here (whether he's scum or town). This statement seemed to clearly be acknowledging that he knew it was L-1 and saw no problem with the fact that he didn't announce it in thread. His next post was a repeat of this.

2: If this was the motivation behind his Doombunny vote, then why did he choose to go after Doombunny and not somebody else that was already getting attention?

Evidently he thought the reason he gave for voting doombunny was a reasonable one, and that it would be enough to avert attention that way.

As for TS and AV, TS had provided minimal content. AV had tunneled, and I obviously don't have a problem with him being asked to give reads, as long as they're posting their own. The post I pointed out I found scummy because TS was asking AV for more content when he was providing so little himself. It looked very much like he was trying to give the impression he was active, while posting minimal content.

Scum

Jedo
Seacore
NS
TS

Which of these four players do you think are connected to each other?

As I've stated, I find Seacore's blatant defense of Jedo suspicious. His distancing statement that he actually finds Jedo suspicious followed immediately by him saying he doesn't think Jedo is scummy makes me think it more likely there's a link between them. I don't remember noticing much else - I'd need to reread to look closer at connections.

@TS what good does a "secret" reason do? If it's such a secret why are you telling us you have one? If you have caught something scummy, please share with the rest of us. Just tangling it in front of our noses does not make it look like you have something new to say when you don't

nevermind

ignore it i was in an odd mood at the time. I gave 2 reasons and that satisfies the question

I stupidly held something back, but I still gave 2 other reasons to satisfy the question

I'm confused. If you regret holding something back, why are you still holding it back?

I never said krypt isn’t scummy, but that the reasons people were voting her were not scummy to me. It’s hard for you people to read that apparently, I guess because you all have your preconceived ways of reading phrases.

What? You said, "I don't see the scumminess of kryptinen." You're really trying to say that we're misinterpreting that?

That comment was referring to the fact that I don't see the action of unvoting out of RVS and asking questions for the purpose of reactions rather than answers as scummy.

Those actions were not factors in me thinking her to be scummy.

That was the point of that statement. I joined the bandwagon independently of my read on her, and it is only after she responds to the pressure of the wagon that I felt her to be scum.

The bolded indicates that you actually did think she was scummy when you voted her. If so, what did you think was scummy about her and why didn't you ever say anything about it?

Packbat clearing Jedo as town for his recent posts is suspicious to me since Jedo's recent posts seem like pure back pedaling.

Not quite caught up.

[Setael]

Evidently he thought the reason he gave for voting doombunny was a reasonable one, and that it would be enough to avert attention that way.

I still don't quite understand this. What gives you the impression that he thought his vote was a reasonable one?

You think people often make votes with reasons they think are unreasonable? Both scum and town are motivated to back up their votes with decent reasons. Maybe I'm not understanding your misunderstanding. Seems obvious to me.

I just made something up to try and provide wifom for the scum or something like that, but it turns out it's just town wifom

Can you please explain your thought process in thinking this lie would somehow benefit the town?

I'm not caught up, but I just hit the watcher claim. There's a good chance the Power wagon was just distraction from Jedo. I haven't heard a convincing reason given by anyone who unvoted him. I'll try to catch up and post again tonight.

[Setael]

Read my post again. "Him" in what you quoted is referring to Jedo, not Power.

And no, I'm not caught up. As I stated.

[Setael]

OK, caught up. The Quaroth case is solid, but I'd still prefer a Jedo lynch. I need to reread the attention shift from him to Power. Pretty sure scum had a hand in it.

[Setael]

Analysis of the shift from Jedo to Power:

Post 163 I put Jedo at L-1 and the wagon was Quaroath, Doombunny9, Packbat, Nachomamma8, Twistedspoon, me.

Nacho is the first to unvote, saying he still thinks Jedo is scum, but wants to wagon Power.

And, for the grand finale:

Unvote, Vote: Powerrox

I'm still getting a fairly strong scumread from Jedi, but I can't in good consciousness let Powerlurker coast through this >.>

Seacore votes Power, sheeping Nacho and saying he'd have posted the same thing if Nacho hadn't first. If Jedo is scum, this vote looks really bad as an attempt at momentum for the Power wagon and shifting attention away from Jedo. Well, this combined with Seacore's previous defense/sketchy stance on Jedo's slot.

Then AV, Doombunny and Krypt all vote Power.

Doombunny's move from Jedo to Power is the most cautious - he first posts that he thinks the case is good but wants to hear from both Jedo and Power before he thinks about switching his vote, and he asks Seacore about his vote. When he votes Power a bit later he says it's for Power's omgus Nacho vote and then he says "I was beginning to have to have second thoughts on Jedo anyway assuming what he said about playing to his meta is true." I don't like this - that first of all he feels he needs to give a reason for unvoting Jedo (I think scum who are bussing would be more likely to do this) and second that it's such a weak reason and he's just assuming about the meta.

So then Quaroth puts him at L-1, giving a vague reason about him giving little content. He mentions Jedo in this post, but just to accuse him of defending Krypt.

Then Packbat unvotes.

In any case, based on his recent posting, I've decided to

UNVOTE: Jedo the Jedi

...because from the way he's approaching it, he really does seem sincere. Comments on the rest when I finally get to the reread.

Don't like this either. Scum can certainly seem sincere.

So basically, Nacho is the only one who moved from Jedo to Power that I don't find suspicious.

So then after the watcher claim, none of the Jedo voters go back to Jedo. Doombunny votes Quaroth saying he's choosing between Pack and Quar for posting few opinions or new info. Doesn't mention Jedo at all. Based on his post when switching, Doom would've been the most likely to re-vote Jedo after the watcher claim. Not mentioning Jedo at all here is suspect.

Quaroth staying on the Power wagon and not mentioning Jedo is even more suspect, since he supposedly still found Jedo really scummy when he voted Power. Quaroth could've been bussing Jedo and doesn't want to switch back for fear of getting late-day momentum on a wagon he never really wanted to be successful.

Jedo's my #1 scum read. I think it's very likely that at least one of the Jedo to Power swingers is a scum buddy, and other Power voters could also be buddies who wanted to push the Power wagon to get the pressure off Jedo. (Obviously I'm looking at Seacore here.) Granted, this is all speculation until Jedo flips.

I will bake cookies for anyone who votes Jedo. Easter shaped sugar cookies. Bunnies and eggs and such.

I'm willing to vote Quaroth to avoid no lynch, but no one will get cookies in that case.

[Setael]

@Set- Other than the long bandwagon on Krypt, do you have any other reasons for thinking Jedo is scum?

That's most of it, plus a lack of seeing what everyone else says is so townie about his defensive posts.

he seems to be playing pretty town-like.

I don't find him so scummy anymore. Sue me.

Please elaborate. What do you find town-like about his posts?

[Setael]

Sea, that's a terrible vote and Qua is clearly just trying to save his ass.

Terrible as in scummy? What is your read on Seacore? Why didn't you push him more for that vote if you think it's terrible?

I can definitely get behind a Seacore wagon.

Unvote, vote: Seacore

Happy to switch back to Jedo to avoid a no lynch. I think they're both scum.

[Setael]

Setael, Jedi was a bigger wagon at this point, so why did you switch to Seacore if you think both are scum?

Yes, but Jedo's wagon had no momentum and there was a possibility for Seacore momentum if other people besides me were finding him scummy but hadn't thought a wagon on him was a possibility.

I'm down with a Quaroath lynch. I'm not going to be able to post again before deadline.

unvote, vote: Quaroath

L-1

[Setael]

I'm not caught up. I'll try to post tonight.

[Setael]

@Sea- Yesterday you seemed sure that Jedo was scum over Quar and tried to pull people over to the Jedo wagon. However, you also said

I don't find Jedo that scummy. I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

And then nothing about Jedo until you started voting for him because "Quar looked genuine". What made you change your mind about Jedo or if you still think he's not that scummy, what made Quar seem so town-like and genuine to you?

After rereading end of day yesterday, I think this makes sense if they're both scum. Seacore knew Jedo would not be lynched when he voted him. There was no momentum to Jedo's wagon and too many people had said they were leaning town on him. His vote was an attempt at distancing from Jedo. This would explain why he didn't give any reasons for choosing Jedo over Quar - he wouldn't want to convince anyone to jump onto the Jedo wagon, since he never wanted it to succeed.

So then there's his vote today:

However, I'll vote for Jedo because that wagon fell apart when it shouldn't have. And because it'll give information, for example, my case against Set becomes weaker if Jedo flips town.

Vote Jedo

Again, I don't think Seacore is too worried Jedo's wagon could be successful today, but just in case he again provides no actual read on Jedo or give any reasons to think he's scum. Instead he says he's voting him for information. Easy unvote if Jedo's wagon gains real momentum. However, if it does end up being successful, he's lined up a nice mislynch of me if Jedo flips scum. Makes no sense for Seacore to vote Jedo here. He supposedly has a town read on Jedo, though he's contradicted himself on it, and the only reason he gave for voting Jedo yesterday was because it was a better option than Quar. So rather than doing any scum hunting, he just votes Jedo. It's a distancing vote.

Happy with a lynch of either Seacore or Jedo. I'm curious to see what Seacore will do if the Jedo wagon takes off.

vote: Jedo

[Setael]

Seacore, you admit you were wrong about anyone stating they'd vote Jedo and yet you STILL try to cast suspicion on me for leaving his wagon? It was obvious he was not going to be lynched so doesn't it make sense for me to move my vote to a wagon that might actually succeed?

It is glaringly obvious to me that you know Jedo is scum and are trying to link me to him with garbage reasoning.

[Setael]

What are you talking about, Seacore? You're totally ignoring reality. I was on the Jedo wagon forever and it was going nowhere. Those who were talking about him at all were saying they thought he was town. It is completely false to say that if I'd have stayed on the Jedo wagon it would've succeeded. At deadline, you have to vote where the momentum is. I was hoping there'd be momentum on you. That didn't happen, so I put my vote where the momentum was. Your repeated attempts to tie me to JedoScum are weak and lame.

[Setael]

His other posts as well suggest to me that he really wants to see Set lynched instead of Jedo so I'm unsure as to why he's not voting Set?

Seems pretty clear to me that he's setting himself up to unvote Jedo and vote me as soon as he could do so without earning much negative attention for it.

The Power wagon is dumb. If he were scum making up this claim, why on EARTH would he today say "oh yeah by the way..." when he had to know that would look really bad. There is no scum motivation for saying that. Scum making up the claim would've either come up with a better person to watch or have just come up with a decent reason to have watched me.

[Setael]

Why go to Jedo today when you preferred Seacore yesterday? What changed?

I feel like I've made the answer to this pretty clear. Yesterday I was happy with Jedo or sea but there was no momentum to jedo's wagon. Today thats where the momentum is, plus I'd like to see how far Seacore will go with the bus.

[Setael]

Why go to Jedo today when you preferred Seacore yesterday? What changed?

I feel like I've made the answer to this pretty clear. Yesterday I was happy with Jedo or sea but there was no momentum to jedo's wagon. Today thats where the momentum is, plus I'd like to see how far Seacore will go with the bus.

Hey Setael.
Jedo was town
I'm town

What now, bitch?

Apologize.

[Setael]

Why go to Jedo today when you preferred Seacore yesterday? What changed?

I feel like I've made the answer to this pretty clear. Yesterday I was happy with Jedo or sea but there was no momentum to jedo's wagon. Today thats where the momentum is, plus I'd like to see how far Seacore will go with the bus.

You do realize most of that momentum died when you moved your vote to seacore at the last minute correct?

What momentum? It had been stagnant for days.

[Setael]

Setael:

Sorry about the wall. I promise the rest of my posts will be much shorter.

I've seen you wall other places plenty, and you didn't apologize then. Why apologize now?

When I first read the thread, at least one person had said they hate walls or refuse to read walls or something like that. That is why.

I didn't get a scum vibe from Jedo's post 60 (where he votes Krypt) originally, since it seems unlikely as a scum move, but now that he's defended the post with "too scummy to be scum," I think it was premeditated.

What benefit do you think Jedo was expecting if he premeditated that move?

Anticipating others seeing it as "too scummy to be scum" and giving him town cred for it. This seems obvious.

Huge red flag. Jedo hasn't given a reason to be on the wagon and has only said he thinks Krypt ISN'T scummy. There's no way a townie wouldn't unvote here.

Why not?

A townie wouldn't want one of their town reads lynched. This seems obvious.

So evidently Jedo would have been fine with Krypt being lynched on page 2 (even though he supposedly thinks Krypt is town) as long as someone had good reasoning. This is insane.

This is a bit of a misrep. Just because you leave someone at L-1 on page 2 doesn't mean that you're fine with them being lynched on Page 2.

It does when they're at L-1 and you leave your vote on. And just say "careful with the hammer" and later say you'd have been fine with someone hammering as long as they had good reasoning.

It exonerates you fully from any responsibility for the wagon and for the lynch if the player is lynched.

How many scum are actually afraid of being blamed for a D1 lynch? Do you really think scum need an excuse to jump on an RVS bandwagon?

It most certainly was not an RVS bandwagon.

Read my post again. "Him" in what you quoted is referring to Jedo, not Power.

And no, I'm not caught up. As I stated.

OK, caught up. The Quaroth case is solid, but I'd still prefer a Jedo lynch. I need to reread the attention shift from him to Power. Pretty sure scum had a hand in it.

Why didn't you post any notes on this segment of catchup like you did for everything else?

Lack of time.

plus I'd like to see how far Seacore will go with the bus.

This doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Do you have any suspects outside of Jedo/Seacore? You really haven't commented on anyone outside of those two...

Nope. Null or town reads on everyone else atm. (Well, AV and Packbat moved up my scum scale a bit for the Power wagon, but it's pretty minor suspicion in comparison, and I'm reconsidering as I can see the reasoning behind it a bit more now.)

You unvoted when he was at L-2

Please name one person who would've put him at L-1 and I'll concede that your point has some merit. Everyone who had at one time suspected Jedo was saying they found his defense convincing and protown. I had absolutely no hope of his wagon succeeding.

Wait, what?
Seacore voted for a Jedo lynch a day before you voted and put him at L-2...

Yeah, Seacore. So the votes that put Jedo within shouting distance of a lynch were Seacore (because he also knew the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed) and Quar out of self preservation. Those don't even count and didn't make me any more hopeful the wagon would succeed.

[Setael]

Will catch up and post today.

[Setael]

When I first read the thread, at least one person had said they hate walls or refuse to read walls or something like that. That is why.

I reread to the point where you replaced in, and I didn't find anything of the sort. Mind linking me?

I looked back and didn't find it either, so I checked the other game I replaced into at about the same time and it's there. I thought it had been in this game when I posted.

Anticipating others seeing it as "too scummy to be scum" and giving him town cred for it. This seems obvious.

1. If he was anticipating that others would see it as too scummy to be scum, then why would he point out that it was beforehand?
2. Now, why does it seem obvious? Are "too scummy to be scum" premeditated defenses something you do often as scum?

1. I've already explained this. Pointing it out beforehand was the main thing that was later explained as "too scummy to be scum" and, if it was premeditated, that was clearly part of it.
2. The answer to your question is what I was referring to as obvious.

A townie wouldn't want one of their town reads lynched. This seems obvious.

Jedo never called krypt town.
Hell, he even called her a leaning scum read here:

Anyway, I see we have a failure to communicate. I put my vote down randomly, but I don't move it at the slightest whim or defense because I might have accidentally hit scum. krypt didn't give a good enough defense for me to move my vote. That's at least leaning scum.

That was not said until after the post I'm talking about where Jedo pointed out that Krypt was at L-1 but didn't unvote. At that point the ONLY thing he had given as far as his read on Krypt was: "Meh. I don't see the scumminess of kryptinen. I actually understand where she's coming from, and I applaud the effort to get town discussing."

It does when they're at L-1 and you leave your vote on. And just say "careful with the hammer" and later say you'd have been fine with someone hammering as long as they had good reasoning.

All of the pressure is removed if you say "yo nobody hammer!"
And I'm always okay with a hammer that had good reasoning, regardless of how they got that close to a lynch. But, I seriously doubt there was good reasoning on page 2.

Even with good reasoning it was way too early to end D1, and the person would've been hammering with Jedo on the wagon who had a town read on Krypt.

It most certainly was not an RVS bandwagon.

So you believe the cases presented were strong enough for krypt to be lynched?

Don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is that it was not an RVS bandwagon. The votes on Krypt were not random. That fact has no bearing on whether the reasoning for the votes was any good. I think Jedo and Seacore are scum, so what do you think I think of the Krypt wagon? (Or you could go back and read my posts since I've already covered this.)

Makes perfect sense to me.

If you believe Seacore to be bussing scum, then it shouldn't matter how far he takes the bus; he's still scum. It won't give you any hints as to Jedo's alignment, since you're lynching him, and it won't give you any hints to Seacore's alignment, since he's already scum. So, what's the purpose of this?

I didn't expect Seacore to stay on Jedo this long. I thought he would unvote and vote me, which would make sense since he was posting so many reasons to think I'm scum. I'm guessing he didn't because I called him on it.

Nope. Null or town reads on everyone else atm. (Well, AV and Packbat moved up my scum scale a bit for the Power wagon, but it's pretty minor suspicion in comparison, and I'm reconsidering as I can see the reasoning behind it a bit more now.)

Who are your null reads? Who are your town reads? What are the strengths of these reads?
Why were AV and Packbat suspicious for the power wagon originally? What reasoning do you see behind it? If you see reasoning behind it, does that influence your read on Power?

I'm not providing a full list of reads. Care to provide a reason why I should? The Power wagon was suspicious because I believe his claim and think scum would be motivated to mislynch a PR if anything about the claim is at all out of the ordinary. Thinking about it, I can see townies being suspicious of the claim so I'm less wary of AV and Packbat for it, but no it doesn't influence my read on Power because I believe his claim and still think he wouldn't have claimed the way he did if he's scum.

Yeah, Seacore. So the votes that put Jedo within shouting distance of a lynch were Seacore (because he also knew the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed) and Quar out of self preservation. Those don't even count and didn't make me any more hopeful the wagon would succeed.

1. How did Seacore know the Jedo wagon wouldn't succeed? Magic?
2. Why didn't Quaorath's vote count? It put Jedo's lynch one vote closer, didn't it?

1. Same reason I did. It had been stagnant forever and most players had stated they had town reads on him or had really liked his defense.
2. Quaroath voting Seacore added no momentum because he was the other competing wagon. No one would see that vote and say "Oh yeah, maybe I should think about voting jedo if Quar is." Savvy?

I'm only caught up to that Nacho post. More later hopefully.

[Setael]

Grey, your accusation that I'm lurking is ridiculous. I've devoted plenty of time to this game, it's just all been answering Nacho's questions. I answered them when I came to them and had no time to read the rest of the thread.

It's also false to say I've done nothing. I haven't been able to be as active as I'd like lately, but I certainly haven't been absent. You're just trying to dismiss my case against Jedo, but calling me a bitch and telling everyone my posts are worthless does not make them go away. Your slot is scum and that doesn't change just because you replace in.

I'm not surprised at your attempt to get a wagon on me going now that your buddy Seacore is on the ropes. You're both obvscum.

Unvote, vote: Seacore

[Setael]

What are you talking about Doom? Seacore is scum and Grey is scum. Seacore is more likely to be lynched today, so I'm voting him. What's so hard to understand about that?

Please point out what you are calling omgus. Grey's slot is scum independent of his suspicion of me.

I've only had access from my phone all day, so you shouldn't be expecting fancy, detailed cases. I'm voting sea because he's scum with a decent wagon. It's ridiculous that grey calls the votes on sea fishy while saying himself how scummy he thinks sea is. He's bussing sea while simultaneously trying to dismantle his wagon and get one going on me.

They both need to die. Happy to have sea go first.

[Setael]

What are you talking about Doom? Seacore is scum and Grey is scum. Seacore is more likely to be lynched today, so I'm voting him. What's so hard to understand about that?

I understand it just fine. However, this play of yours (And Sea too) doesn't look pro-town to me, rather opportunistic scum. Both of you are just jumping on whatever large wagon you agree while pushing for no single person in particular.

This is blatantly false. I have been pushing for a lynch of Jedo or Seacore. A wagon on anyone else would not interest me nearly as much.

Please point out what you are calling omgus. Grey's slot is scum independent of his suspicion of me.

I found your latest revelation to have an element of OMGUS when you said "You're just trying to dismiss my case against Jedo, but calling me a bitch and telling everyone my posts are worthless does not make them go away. Your slot is scum and that doesn't change just because you replace in." which just looks to me as if you're calling him scum because he doesn't like your posts. It may be a bit of a stretch on its own but with the rest of the information on you, it fits right in.[/quote]

What is "the rest of the information" you are referring to, because yeah. That's a huge stretch.

@Set-Who do you currently find more scummy, the Grey/Jedo slot or the Sea slot? When did you start finding Sea "obvscum"?

They're both scum. Equal parts scummy.

It's not like I all of a sudden found Sea obvscum. I suspected Seacore from the start of the Krypt wagon, as I stated upon replacing in. I started becoming more sure about him based on his weird play re: Jedo, particularly this:

I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him

, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them.

I don't find Jedo that scummy.

I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

@Seacore - Can you reconcile these 2 comments please? The only thing between them is your vote on Power.[/quote]

And his explanation was this:

Ah, unless you're talking about me saying that I found some actions of his scummy and then I'm saying I don't find him scummy. Okay, yeah, that looks like a contradiction, but isn't really, not on Day 1. Nearly everybody drops tiny little scumtells early on when you're grasping for evidence to start playing with.

Then his Power vote was bad where he claimed he'd have posted the case Nacho did if he'd have posted first. This isn't such a strong point, however, if I'm wrong about Jedo.

Then today has been ridiculous where it's painfully obvious that he's bussing Jedo and never intended to stay on that wagon (or rather, knew it wouldn't go anywhere in the first place, so it was an optimal time to bus.) As has been stated, he set himself up to vote me as soon as it would do him some good by voting Jedo but making a case against me.

It's ridiculous that grey calls the votes on sea fishy while saying himself how scummy he thinks sea is.

Where is this?

especially since this seacore wagon is suddenly making me all sorts of nervous...

Right Vox.
Because that vote [TS'] was totally a happy making vote that makes me feel reallllllyyyyy safe and secure on this wagon.

Then you have Packabat aka wagon #2.

The only thing making me feel good is Setael brazenly not putting their money where their mouth is and voting for their "OMG SCUMREAD" when they posted this:

I'm assuming you don't need me to point out all the times he's called Seacore scummy?

What makes your playstyle different from the other? Why should I vote the other and not you?

I don't see our playstyles as alike at all. The similarity is in the argument. Yesterday he was extremely wishy washy on Jedo and was never very clear about his read. Today suddenly he's SURE Jedo is scum and is SURE I'm bussing him. But then you look at the reasons he's provided for thinking Jedo is scum and he's never said he thinks he's scummy. Instead he gives these reasons:

Jedo's wagon fell apart yesterday "when it shouldn't have".

A Jedo lynch will give information and if Jedo flips town he won't be as suspicious of me.

(Then he says a "bunch of people" said they'd vote Jedo at deadline thought this was proven wrong shortly after.)

Those are crappy reasons to think someone is scum. These are reasons you give when you're bussing someone without ever planning for it to go anywhere.

Caught up to that Krypt post.

[Setael]

I find Jedo scummy because of the way his wagon formed and fell apart. I mean, go back over D1 and watch it. It grew as a secondary wagon to Krypt, stayed secondary when Power because the prime wagon and then just when it was about to become the prime wagon itself, it fell apart and people went after Quar. Some of them did it "just to hammer so we'd have somebody at deadline" even though, with a little bit more work, Jedo could have been the lynch.

Again, how was it about to become the prime wagon? There is no truth behind that statement. It had been stagnant for some time and everyone was saying they found his defense uber townie. Where are you getting this from? What would "a little bit more work" have looked like?

So, since the Jedo lynch hadn't happened, but there had still been a decent amount of people on the wagon at the end of the day, I jumped straight back to it at the start of the day. I was hoping that everybody who was on it D1 would join me and we could start really pushing for it. That didn't happen and that made me even more suspicious.

So that is why I've pushed the Jedo/GI wagon. There is information there. If I have time today, I'll actually compile the information I've gained from it, I was hoping to get a bit more, but whatever.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You never really thought/don't think now that Jedo/GI is scum. You voted him and stayed on his wagon solely as an information lynch. Am I missing something?

That's a really good place to start when there was no good reason that Jedo wasn't lynched.

This statement indicates you think the case on Jedo was really strong, right? You never said so yesterday. You've never given a reason for thinking he's scum at all. Plus this contradicts your other statement that you only were on the wagon for information.

When I found Jedo scummy I voted for him.

Contradiction again. Did you vote him because you thought he was scummy, or just because you wanted information? You need to get your story straight.

Set can't say the same thing. Set had multiple excuses to vote for anybody but Jedo, even while calling Jedo out as scummy.

This is an outright lie. I was voting Jedo for most of the day yesterday and only unvoted when it was clear he wasn't going to be lynched and another of my scum reads might be (YOU). Then today who was I voting? Jedo. Until again it was clear the wagon was dead and there was momentum on my other main scum read (YOU).

I was talking about the rest of the case on you and why the people think you're scummy. Alone it's a weak point to make but its defiantly worth a look with all of the other stuff on you.

Please elaborate on "the rest of the case" and these reasons people have for thinking I'm scummy - could you summarize it? What I want to know is what you're referring to when you say "all of the other stuff".

I understand this but about where (Not looking for an exact place, a range of posts would be fine) did you find him to be obvscum rather than just a suspicious person?

I guess I've been more confident he's scum ever since these posts and his crappy explanation of it:

I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them.

I don't find Jedo that scummy. I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

[Setael]

@Doom re: Seacore
-When I replaced in a bit scummy
-Near the end of D1 more scummy
-Near the beginning of D2 really scummy
-Now definitely scum

GreyICE was not trying to remove your posts by calling you a bitch. I figured that little piece of information had already been explained.
I don't really see where he called your posts worthless. Mind linking me?

This:

OTOH Setael hasn't posted anything useful. Period.

The seacore wagon built EASY. This one is taking work.

Still feel this way after 610 and 611?

[Setael]

@Set- Was your growing suspicions on Sea fairly steady or were there certain events/posts that really stuck out and made him jump out?

I feel like I've answered this 3 times. It was both. I thought his posts starting the Krypt wagon were scummy and then my scum read on him grew with every post he made. There were definitely certain posts though which stuck out, all of which I've posted about.

@TS - Why did you vote JJ yesterday? Why not today?

wicked convinced me not to. He had a very strong town read on JJ

Is this your only reason for thinking your read on Jedo was wrong? The fact that Wicked thought Jedo was town? What makes you think Wicked's reads were accurate just because he flipped town?

Who do you think is scum, TS?

[Setael]

Also the fact that to date not one person has moved onto Setael from the Seacore wagon when quite a few moved from me to Seacore (despite there being no realistic way for me/Seacore to be a scumteam) is good.

Hang on. Quite a few? I'm the only one who moved from you to Seacore so how is that quite a few? Also, ISO me to find posts that counter your claim that there's "no realistic way" you and Seacore are scum buddies.

[Setael]

That's cool. I wasn't looking to judge your response either way, I was more looking to lock in your reaction. So when I flip town you can't say "Oh, since Seacore is town, I'll have to rethink my read on Set"

So far, apart from your case on me, which you've admitted is weaker than your case on Set, other people's cases on me seem to be "I didn't like his double vote", and "I didn't like the way he jumped on Krypt"
Both of those things are just dumb, and don't explain why they don't find Set scummier than me.

There's a lot more to it than that, for me anyway. Everything you said about Jedo yesterday is scummy and the way you jumped on his wagon today with crap reasoning and didn't change your stance once it was obvious your reasoning was flawed.

I am quite sure there's at least one scum in Set/Sea, so one of them has to go. I'm willing to lynch either one, but not as long as there's discussion. We'll talk about TS when this has been taken care of.

What is that based on, that one of me/Sea is scum so one of us has to go? Do you think we're both scum, or just one of us? I assume both since you say you're willing to lynch either one of us, but everything else you said there indicated you think it's one or the other. Can you explain that? If Seacore flips scum, what will your read on me be?

[Setael]

So OF COURSE he's tied to more player's, Setael is functionally a black hole when it comes to useful content. Each Setael post actively reduces the amount of information in the thread.

You saying this over and over does not make it true. Most my content has been about you and Seacore, so I'm not surprised you are trying to completely discount it, but it's just not possible. You say the Jedo wagon was so bad but I certainly disagree. To use your own logic, it was incredibly hard (impossible in the end) to get him lynched. Everyone who said they'd thought he was scum miraculously changed their minds (or never took a solid stand on their read on him at all like Seacore did) and his wagon stagnated for days. Your slot is scum and you can post 100 times that I haven't posted content and it won't convince anyone to ignore my posts. You quoted ONE post where I was looking at the switch from Jedo to power and yes there was more info than analysis in that post, but then to lump all my posts as content-free is totally inaccurate.

I'm not surprised you won't hammer Seacore even to prevent a no lynch, and I'm not surprised you're trying to get the lynch switched from sea to me, in spite of thinking he was SO scummy a few days ago. When he flips scum, I will no longer be the only one who sees that you are obviously buddies.

[Setael]

Are you going to commit to any scum reads besides my RVS vote?

This right here ^

Actually, I'd be happy to vote Sea/Set since TS is more vigbait anything else (Any vigs out there, you'd better get the picture)

Unvote, Vote: Set

seeing as how the people on the Sea wagon are overall scummy. (L-2 I think)

That vote was scumtastic. Please provide your reasoning for your scum reads on Packbat, Twistedspoon, AurorusVox, Powerrox93 and myself. You seriously think those players are scummier than Grey and Seacore?! This is ridiculous.

I'm calling a Doom/Grey/Seacore scum team.

[Setael]

Doctor. Last night I protected Power.

[Setael]

Normal doc. I am not limited in who I can protect. I chose Power because I believed his claim and thought scum might target him for a NK.

I don't either.
Nobody counter claim.

Give me a break. You know no one is going to counter claim. If someone hammers me, there's no way you aren't being lynched tomorrow.

@Doom - your vote is scummy because instead of giving reasons for thinking I'm scum, you vote me because you suspect those on the Seacore wagon. The omgus accusation is lame. Because Seacore is obvscum, you throwing your weight behind my wagon with crap reasoning and therefore helping to derail his is really scummy.

[Setael]

So a full doctor is neighbors with a FUCKING WATCHER?

Can someone mail me a hammer?

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not a neighbor doc so what does it matter who my neighbors are?

your vote is scummy because instead of giving reasons for thinking I'm scum, you vote me because you suspect those on the Seacore wagon.

Didn't I already give reasons in a post before? Read the thread moar. You and Sea were close in my suspicions with Sea just winning out scumhunting wise. However, when the majority of the people I found scummy (You, Pack, TS), I think its easy to see why I chose you.

Uh no. I didn't recall you ever stating you were suspicious of me, so ISO'd you and I still don't see anything. Care to link to it if I'm missing it? As far as I can see you went from no comment on me to voting me because you are suspicious of all the Seacore voters (which is also sheeping Grey btw).

[Setael]

Yeah or maybe the claimed super doc whose role works like no one else's is a fake.

And when you say "no one else" you're talking about JUST Power who isn't confirmed, right?

ISO #63 is where I made my case on you. Thanks for the misrep.

I should've searched "Set" as well as "Setael". Regardless, it's weak reasoning to choose me over Seacore. Meh.

I can see Llama's point, though it would be a nonissue if Power hadn't had to claim. Possibly the scum have a PR that keeps a watcher from seeing them so that they could still kill me without repercussion. Maybe I'm wrong to believe Power's claim, but I don't buy into AV's reasoning at all. It makes no sense to me that he'd claim the way he did if he were scum.

I don't really know what to say to convince people to not kill me. It's been years since I had a town PR. I tried to kind of stay low but that backfired. Saying I haven't been scum hunting is ridiculous though. I have focused mainly on Seacore and Grey and yes, I've spent a lot of time answering questions but I think I've made solid cases on both of them and it hasn't all been information with no analysis like Grey claims.

It's probably inevitable at this point since most everyone is following Grey and Seacore's lead. My flip should get people to revisit their blind obedience to them tomorrow, so that's something.

[Setael]

Watcher watches doctor
Doctor protects watcher

Or maybe they don't!

In any case those two power roles combine to form voltron, the unbeatable team whereby scum just have to kind of sit there and cry.

Also does no one else see the hardcore role fishing in Setael's post?

Yeah or maybe the claimed super doc whose role works like no one else's is a fake.

And when you say "no one else" you're talking about JUST Power who isn't confirmed, right?

He flat out asks me if I have a power role that functions similarly to PowerRox's.

Well lynch him.

I absolutely did no such thing. I pointed out that you're basing that assumption completely on ONE claim that isn't even confirmed, which is RIDICULOUS.

@Llama - I didn't consider it until after you pointed out that I could protect power all game and scum wouldn't dare NK him for fear of being watched.

[Setael]

I can see Llama's point, though it would be a nonissue if Power hadn't had to claim.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by this.

Obviously if he hadn't claimed I wouldn't have known to protect him.

If he is telling the truth about his role, there must be a scum who can't be seen by a watcher.

[Setael]

It looks like I will be lynched with deadline so close.

@townies: Power will probably be NK'd tonight since I'm sure there are no other protective roles. If for some reason he isn't, it's pretty obvious Grey and Seacore will target him to be lynched tomorrow since they are pushing that one of us must be scum. DO NOT let them auto lynch Power just because I flipped town. I for one think it's definitely possible he is also telling the truth about his role. If Seacore and Grey manage to off all our PRs and you just sit back and let them do it, I will be very angry at end game.

Also, TS should not be vigged tonight if there happens to be a vig. I have good reason for this. Power should consider watching TS to see if scum target him in case they saw what I saw. My main reason for thinking Power might survive until tomorrow is I think it's likely the scum also saw this and will kill TS tonight.

That is all.

[Setael]

Well done, AV.

My play was meh. I got a bit apathetic after AV yelled at us in the scum QT for not trying to recruit Nacho.

: /