Mini 1432: Clue Master Detective (Game Over)

[Jennifer]

Aren't insurance guys supposed to turn up

after

something bad happens, not

before

? Suspicious...

VOTE: Jake

[Jennifer]

Hi, Mala! I'm glad you said you're not scum this time. We can finally be friends!

Unfortunately, Serra. You and I might not be.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Serra

I think bandwagoning can definitely be town, but I agree with Jake that the manner you did it is suspect.

p-edit I don't see Mala's reaction as scummy, but rather as trying to get people to start being serious and move the game forward.
p-p-edit woah... so many new posts!

[Jennifer]

Of everyone here, I've played with Mala and Serra before. Mala was scum in the game that just finished. So I was having fun. Also Mala already had enough votes on her to get a pressure reaction, more weren't needed at the time so I took a different route.

Also, in all seriousness I don't find Mala's responses scummy. It's po-town to ask why the votes are there, pro-town to solicit opinions, an natural to not want to be lynched.

This weekend is short in time for me, but when I can will write more and analyze current game state.

[Jennifer]

Okay, St. Patty's weekend is over, and I'm back!

VOTE: Baby Spice
@Baby Do you really think that movie quotes page 1 are a scum tell? Also I really don't like your unvote on Mala after Shos explained his case. If you think Mala is scummy, why would you unvote?


P.S. @Mala/Serra - I've already explained my post, and I don't know if Mala is town. I went with kittypost Malatown because I didn't think Mala needed more votes for the reaction test at that point. Why vote Serra? Mala wagon had to be focused on because that was the main thing going on; Sera's name drew my attention because I know him. What I'm not liking from Mala is the double standard. You make initial posts that you later disavow/say weren't serious, yet are taking someone to task on theirs? Tsk.

[Jennifer]

Anyone not voting fuzzy shoukd say why.

I considered voting him, but Serra's comment that he tends to get lynched Day 1 gave me pause because his ISO wasn't just fluff, so I wanted to see how his meta compares. After having looked over the games where he's flipped, I'm not seeing anything in this game that seems to point to one alignment yet.

@Shos What do you think about Baby Spice unvoting Mala after you stated that your case was a reaction test?

[Jennifer]

@Serra I'm not back pedaling from anything.

Mala makes a kitty-pic post essentially saying 'I'm town this game!'
Mala gets a wagon
I don't see a reason to further the wagon so I let Mala be town to see how that plays out, I vote you on the AtE
I have found something scummier, I went with it.

Also, @Serra What do YOU think about Baby unvoting Mala after Shos announces his case was BS, and why do you think my early comments/voting are more worthy of a vote than Baby backpedalling on Mala after Shos' announcement? And why haven't you called out Baby for backpedalling when you presumably see that as a scumtell?

[Jennifer]

*backpedaling* ... I hate making spelling mistakes... twice

[Jennifer]

@Serra

Backpedalling is correct as well, I think.

Yay only one error then!

I understand what you're saying, but I don't like the idea of you "letting Mala be town." If you didn't want to further her wagon, there would have been no harm in simply ignoring it and voting me. The phrasing of 54 sounded too certain of her towniness.

I could have, yes, but that would have been less fun (and less informative).

Baby's vote was only RVS to begin with, so I don't find her unvote particularly incriminating. I do see backpedaling as a scumtell, but I find it more prominent in you than her. Your early comments alone aren't what makes you vote-worthy - it's those posts in contrast with your more recent ones.

While her initial vote may have been RVS, she did state that Mala was somewhat scummy. Do you agree that Baby said that? And, if so, then shouldn't it bother you that she unvoted someone she found somewhat scummy based on the GOTCHA! post from Shos? Especially as she didn't vote anyone else?

It bothers me that she unvoted someone she finds somewhat scummy without good reason. If the case convinced her, it should still convince her even if Shos says he didn't mean it. She should be pointing out that Shos was actually on to something and expand on that point, not unvote.

Baby finds Mala somewhat scummy but unvotes anyway after Shos' GOTCHA!

:

Spoiler:

Has everyone responded and commented on my case on Mala already?

Well I haven't, but I think you're spot on.

Personally, I found Mala and Bella's page one quote fest to be slightly scummy. Mala more so.
But yeah

Unvote

[Jennifer]

I don't think that it is a good idea to share room locations today, even just of where we were last night. Presumably scum is like town right now in that they're uninformed of where people are, which works to our advantage because it doesn't allow them to push for the optimal mislynch for them. [As mafia can only kill in the current or adjacent room, scum would want to mislynch someone that is not reachable to them for the nightkill and nightkill someone else]

I'm torn on whether I think disclosing actions/locations the next day is helpful. On the one hand, you box scum in and make them commit every day to stating where they were/what they did, so we might trap them in a lie. On the other hand, if scum know what item they need to kill and they are told who has it/where it is, they can chase the item down more easily. Right now, I'm leaning towards disclosure starting tomorrow, as I think boxing scum in early to positions is probably more beneficial overall, especially as the days grow, but I'm not completely sold yet.

[Jennifer]

I don't think scum chasing down items is a problem, as when an item is used its position is randomized.

I forgot about the randomization. I think it's a good idea then, starting tomorrow.

[Jennifer]

Okay.. so I would like everyone (to the extent you have not yet) to please:

• * State your opinion on whether we reveal room locations/actions, and if you think we should, starting when
  * Vote Baby Spice -or-
  * (For those who are not willing to vote Baby Spice), (a) provide your opinion on whether you view Baby Spice's actions as scummy and also (b) explain why the person you are voting is worthier of a vote. [If there is anyone not voting, shame! Vote someone!]

[Jennifer]

@Penguin
@Jake
What do you think about Baby Spice? Scummy or no?

@Shos I don't think that we can block movement? The only thing I saw about multiple people in the same room was that if there is an item in that room, the person who gets it will be randomly selected.

That said, having thought about things more, though, I -do- think there is something to be said for room coordination. If we could somehow get as many people as possible spaced out every other room, then it (1) limits the list of targets that scum can choose from to kill and (2) narrows our scum suspects, as we'll be able to more easily match people to rooms/actions.

[Jennifer]

When using an item you can target a player or a room. If the targeted player is outside the range of the item, then the action will fail. If the targeted room has several players, the targeted player is selected randomly.

^This, plus Jake's answer from the Mod make me wonder whether we will be able to tell who is in the room with us at night or if we just have to guess. If no one can see who is in the room with us, it's possible mafia might not be able to nightkill a specific target with certainty, but I think overall we're still better off disclosing. It's possible scum have powers we don't that might let them know where people are (which would mean only town is hurt by lack of info) and because if we all agree to say where we are, then it's meaningful if we catch someone in a lie (presumably by using an item on them and having it fail). I also think regardless we should report item/actions though. The more information we can get, the better I think.

@Baby

Why are you ignoring the case on you and not explained your unvote as asked? Please answer:

Sooo when Spice voted it was without reason, but she later said she thought I was right, and then unvoted without changing her mind. there are signs of scumhunting in that post but it's worth the question: Spice: why did you unvote in that post?

[Jennifer]

I just thought of another reason we might not want to disclose items. Scum might have the ability to steal/swap an item with someone else. If not everyone has an item, then we might make scum waste an action trying to steal from someone with nothing to steal. So, if we do disclose items, I think it should be after the item is used, so that scum can't easily find where it is again.

[Jennifer]

Example of why claiming items is awesome:

Penguin was in the courtyard yesterday. Today I go to the courtyard and find an item. Unless someone dropped it there (which we'd know), I know that item was used and randomized last night. If no one claims to have used that item, someone who claimed not to have used an item is lying scum.

Not necessarily. It could also mean that someone dropped the item without using it or, if a person was killed, the dead person had the item on them at the time of their death.

I keep going back and forth on items. Definitely don't think we should disclose items we have but haven't yet used, considering it may be useful to disclose used items.

I do think we should claim where we were the day before, because that will help us narrow down suspects for kills too, as kills/actions resolve before the next movement. Once we get a death, we'll be able to see who the possible people were that would have been in range for such a kill.

[Jennifer]

@Fuzzy Is Jake still your top scum read?

[Jennifer]

meanwhile, Jen needs to step up as well,

Eh? Why call me out specifically, while not calling out Baby (who hasn't even voted) or even Mollie, who hasn't responded to your questions you asked in Post 217?

Re: Baby I don't like the way that Baby has tried not to acknowledge/engage the wagon on her or further explain thoughts.

[Jennifer]

^Ooh, nice table. I want to learn how to do that.

Fuzzy is killing the momentum a bit, but I don't want to stop the popcorn style claiming.

@Baby Ready to place a vote yet? If not, what makes you uncomfortable about placing one?

@Beli Why is your vote still on Mollie?

[Jennifer]

I was in the Carriage Room.

Last but not least, Belisaurus.

I'm out right now but will address stuff tomorrow when home and on laptop.

[Jennifer]

@Mollie What made you hammer Baby without explanation?

by the timing this one showed up, I definitely wanted to get another look at Mollie.

Baby must've thought so as well and decided mollie's town

. how on earth would that post help scum, if baby flips scum, and town knows to take everything she said with caution?

^ This post, especially the bolded, seems a little off to me.

I take Baby's post as either sarcasm or WIFOM.

Also, I don't see any reason to particularly look at Serra based on Baby's posts. She said earlier that she hadn't found anyone particularly scummy, yet by that time Serra had already suggested disclosing rooms. That we all completed the announcement of where we were D0 does make him then scummy, where he wasn't before.

[Jennifer]

Hey guys,

Just checking in. I have a hellacious work schedule today, so will be out of commission here until tomorrow.

But since we have decided to claim rooms for the night prior, I will go ahead and go first.

I was in the Trophy Room.

Mollie

Your turn!

[Jennifer]

I did not have an item either N0 or N1.

I feel like since we already have had a hodge podge of people state they used an item, we should go ahead and add that to our info box.

Beli and Fuzzy are probably the two people I personally want to vet more today (in addition to learning more from Mollie) because I think that while at least one scum was probably on the Baby wagon, at least one scum was probably off it too, and that data set is smaller. (Shos was off too, but I have a pretty good town read on Shos at this point).

p-edit @Serra according to the Mod's post when someone dies the item drops from the person's hands and randomly appears in a room.

[Jennifer]

When the player dies the item is automatically dropped.

Once an item is dropped or used they will appear on a random room.

[Jennifer]

Guys I know I suck at participation today and I apologize. Visiting family who has no reliable cell/wifi service. V/la until back home on Tuesday then.

I don't see a scum motivation for Mollie to lie about where she was, especially as 1) nobody died so it's not like she was trying to avoid brig IDed as possible killer and 2) she was the one who said where she was, not someone else calling her out on location.

[Jennifer]

Back in civilization, catching up today.

[Jennifer]

Okay, guys. Caught up. If Shos doesn't hammer Fuzzy, I likely will, although I'm willing to lynch Belli today too.

I am finding both Mollie and Shos town. I can see why Shos had suspicions on Mollie, as I had them too. I didn't like where the hammer came on Baby yesterday. And the room error was at least worth exploring (it's possible an item lets you switch rooms with someone, for example). Mollie's responses have been pretty good though, and I believe her.

I didn't like the way that Fuzzy jumped on the Mollie bandwagon though, it felt opportunistic to me and he didn't seem to react to Mollie's responses on the matter, but rather just clinging, without exploring, the belief that Mollie was scum. Also, I cannot understand why he would take the time to write a post about the game and then delete it. There is no town motivation for doing that, especially at L-1, especially when even if you die you know people will read your last posts without suspicions and consider what you say, once they know the posts are coming from conf-town.

Belli was bad today too.
- His post saying he found Mollie genuine so could no longer go after Jake felt like fake reads to me.
- His vote on me, after I already said that I was in no-man's-land and so was V/LA was especially terrible. And especially especially terrible given his reasoning was based on his own meta, not mine (I don't have scum meta, FYI).

[Jennifer]

How is "because gin" based on meta?

"Because gin" is noisy gobbledygook and is essentially not providing any reason.

When you did provide a reason to Serra, you said it was based on meta:

Why Jen?

@Serra:[/b ] because she's playing the same way I do as scum.

Why are you trying to pretend like you didn't make a meta argument?

[Jennifer]

Jake from State Farm, Belisarius looks like he's scum hunting to me. Do you still have a scum read on him, and if so, can you point me toward what you find scummy from him?

@Penguin Can you explain this to me and point out exactly how he is scumhunting? Because all I have seen lately is him voting for someone on V/LA based on some weak self-meta argument and then not even really follow up. If he's trying to scumhunt me, where are his questions? Why isn't he trying to point out his self-meta that he thinks speaks so much of my play and convince people? He asked me one question about his "gin" comment and then never responded to my question back about why he's pretending to ignore that he made a meta argument.

[Jennifer]

Also, I thought Serra's post read genuine. I don't have reason to suspect him as scum at this time.

@Jake Could you expand on your point that Beli has hinted to being connected with Serra? I didn't pick up on that.

Also, although I don't like Fuzzy claiming to write up his thoughts and then delete it, Beli is tipping the scales more to scum for me.

VOTE: Beli

[Jennifer]

Jen, can you reexplain why Beli seems more scum to you than fuzzy? it seems their cases are identical, and fuzzy's case is much more wide the way I see it.

Yeah, I don't get the feeling that Fuzzy and Beli are scum together. Nothing really concrete to point to there, except that annoying explanation of "gut." But I also do believe that at least one of them must be scum because of being off the Baby wagon (and I don't see you as scum).

Fuzzy's latest set of posts come off to me as frustrated town.. like he's trying to find information to provide and just doesn't have a good feel on the game. And I see it as at least trying with naming Penguin. etc.

Contrast that with Beli who I don't see as really trying, coupled with the reasoning I provided earlier (vote on inactive, avoiding question asked, etc), the scales have tipped for me to Beliscum being a higher chance of being true.

[Jennifer]

Tbh, I don't think Beli is scum. He's not playing like he would if he was scum.

How would you expect him to act if he was scum?

[Jennifer]

@Shos (& @Jake minus "still"): Do you still feel Mollie's conflicting room statements to be scummy? If so, can you explain the scum motivation there (I don't see one)?

Also, what are your thoughts on Belliscum?

[Jennifer]

Jen is a puzzle, but something earlier regarding me made me feel she might be scum. Was regarding we early town read on me and EARLY TOWN READS BOTHER ME.

You mean my post on

PAGE 3

.. That you would still bring that up at this point bothers me.

Damn. Could've gotten away with it too.

Explain this please.

[Jennifer]

Ahh... gotcha. So I was right to ultimately not vote you?

Any final thoughts on what we should look at tomorrow?

[Jennifer]

I haven't had any items until I found one when I moved last night.

I'm weary of providing town reads. Especially given we haven't found any scum yet, I don't want to make it easier for scum to figure out who their ideal LYLO situation. Although it appears that they can only kill if in the same room or adjacent room, I don't think that's as a big a limiting factor as we think.
(1) there have to be multiple scum. We don't know how they trigger their killing mechanism works, but presumably more than 1 of them could do the kill, which means they can cover more ground.
(2) We know there is that item that lets you move to whatever room you want. So it's possible that one of them gets that and strategically places themselves for maximum coverage.

I also agree with Jake that we may be getting a bit too caught up in the mechanics of the game, that we're letting regular scumhunting slip by the waysideI do think we should continue to reveal information, etc to try to narrow things down, but just be mindful.

Mollie's, you're up.

[Jennifer]

@Shos
lol I'm scum because I was unlucky in finding an item until last night? Riiiiight. If I was scum wanting to hide I'd likely claim having an item the night no one died.

you said that 'it appears that they can only kill if in the same room or adjacent room'. seriously? it's almost as if it is WRITTEN IN THE RULES?

It's almost as if this vague statement that there may be additional benefits mafia have that we don't know about is also WRITTEN IN THE RULES.

Mafia may or may not have other rules and privileges not expressed here.

I'm not sure what your point with all of this is. Yes or No:
- Do you agree that mafia's ability to kill may not be as hard to obtain as it may appear at first blush?
- Is editing what you write a de facto indication of scum? (Hint: I edit my writing all the time. Point of being town isn't to vomit your thoughts all over the thread; it's to communicate clearly what you're thinking. Sometimes you may miss removing a word when editing because even though the point is to communicate clearly, it's also not worth spending a ton of time spell-checkling/proof-reading)

Although I get that it sounds like OMGUS, I will point out to the rest that Jake was suspicious of Shos and was nightkilled. That fact increases Shos' scumminess factor in my mind.

[Jennifer]

Shos, where is your list Mala is asking for?

Also @Shos What response is there to a WIFOM accusation that I must be scum because I didn't have an item until last night? I have no way to prove that I didn't have an item so any response is WIFOM which makes the accusation itself WIFOM.

Also, unless you can point out what is scummy about the language changes I made, that's just more bad arguments from you. You state that editing language by itself is not scummy, but then you say the changes I made were unnecessary (to you). So are you saying that unnecessary changes to language are scummy? Tell me, which description of killing mechanism is scummy and why?

Jake voted Fuzzy, yes, but as we all saw Fuzzy was town. So the question becomes: why kill Jake? I know nightkill analysis doesn't seem to be popular on this site, but I don't think it should be neglected. I'm not "making stuff up" .. Jake suspected you. Why are you trying to act like he didn't?

vote: shos

it just dawned on me that the fact that shos is trying to pain the mistake as legitimately scummy is a huge red flag imo. the mistake looked genuine enough to me and most of shos's play has been smoke and mirrors

I removed my vote off of fuzzy to go to shos, tbh I am fine lynching either one of them

yes, I find 2 people scummy for 2 different sets of reasons, imagine that...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... &p=4827704

EVERYONE VOTE SHOS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[responding to Shos quote]No, I'm using something you did as a reason to vote you. What you did was scummy as fuck.

[responding to Shos quote]you used it as one of your reasons for voting her, you said something along the lines of "in addition to the "mistake" which means you are using that against her. Your case against her is pretty much crap also especially when you try to use AtE as if that is a scumtell. You are too experienced to be relying on n00b scumtells that aren't really scumtells.

[responding to Shos]I had a gut town read on you day 1 and your play day 2 takes that away so yes I am going to disregard my day 1 read which was based off nothing and listen to my day 2 read which is based off something.

etc.
NOWHERE does he state he reversed his scum read on you, Shos. Now who is making stuff up...

[Jennifer]

so this supports my scumread on you. that's it, no response needed.

A response IS needed because I'm not scum. Should I just be silent and let you false accuse me for bogus reasons? Seriously...

have any one of you EVER connected a nightkill with 'triggering'? didn't think so. you just slipped, it happens. if you are town - tell me then - which of the two did you write first? the one with the trigger or with the works? and why on earth would you write trigger?

I have no idea what I wrote first. This game is not like the regular mafia game. There are items and conditions involved. To do X you are required to do Y. So to trigger X, you must have Y. You still haven't told me why "trigger" is a scummy word.

if you actually read and not just thrown things out of context, you'd know that Jake voted me because of the 'bad case'. now that he agreed with it, and 100% fit my scumreads at the time of mollie & fuzzy, I dunno what's in there against me.

Okay, I will give you that he changed his read on Molli, so we should explore whether that could be a plausible reason why killed (although then I would think you would have been killed instead, although I haven't done a room analysis lately), and that the quote about his read changing based on some of what you said may be an indication that he at least started to change his mind on you. But I don't think that it completely exonerates you, as maybe Shoscum was nervous that Jake had been on to him as much as Jake had been and feared Jake's suspicions would return. Nor does it make me pointing out what I saw when looking through Jake's ISO wrong.

Anyway, who do you want to popcorn list to?

[Jennifer]

and give me just one thing solo in the game that fits 'to do X you are required to do Y'. there's not a single thing in the game that fits, unless you count stuff like 'to vote shos you need to bold vote:shos'.

To prevent someone from being able to move rooms, you must use a rope. Ergo, having a rope triggers the ability.

Unless you can explain (if not to me, then to the rest of town) how my writing choices is somehow scummy, the only slip you've found is shoddy writing. Good thing this isn't English class.

Why shouldn't we look at who dead people were suspicious of? Seems weird to me that you want to avoid considering why someone killed Jake. I said you were right in that Jake seemed to start to come around on you, but that his earlier suspicions of you may have been the reason he was killed. What are you having difficulty understanding?

My scum to town list:
Beli
Shos
Molli
Serra
Penguin
Mala

Belli

Popcorn to you.

[Jennifer]

uh you guys, I'm backing into the army tomorrow so my input might decrease, dunno how much phonetime I'll have each day.

As a sidenote from the game, I have great respect for those who serve, so thank you and all the best! Hopefully you will still be able to come around and play.

(On a snarky note, you must be scum though because you wrote "I'm backing into the army" which isn't proper grammar, so you must have revised your original thought, which can only mean scum! )

[Jennifer]

Because I'm not scum and your case on me is bad.

I think the popcorn to Molli killed this game or some such (but I think she's back today?)

I think we still need to claim rooms before we moved last night and then we'll have all the info to figure out today's lynch.

I have one more hard day of work that is limiting my ability to dive in fully, but hopefully will be able to post more before my flight home tonight, and will by tomorrow at the latest.

[Jennifer]

Okay I'm getting paranoid..

Those who have strong town reads on me.. Can you explain why? Please?

Mala, you've posted that you're paranoid so many times that I'm starting to worry it's a scum affectation. If people can have strong scum reads, why can't they have strong town reads?

Let's see if I have time to go over Jen's ISO and give you more reasons to vote her soon.

Nothing like good ole' confirmation bias, eh?

[Jennifer]

I have not yet used an item.

^This shows that Shos is fake-scumhunting.

If it freaks Shos out so much that I haven't had an item, Shos should have flipped out on Beli too.

[Jennifer]

@Shos Beli never said if he had an item or not. If you find the lack of an item scummy (and you can't deny you've claimed that's an least part of your case on me), then why haven't you followed up with Beli and asked whether he's had an item?

I went and tallied up everyone's top 3 scum reads:

SERRA:
Mala
Jen
Beli

MALA:
Serra
Mollie
Jen

SHOS:
Jen
Mollie
Penguin

JENN:
Beli
Shos
Mollie

BELI:
Mollie
Shos
Jenn

PENGUIN:
Serra
Shos
Beli

MOLLIE:
Jen
Beli
Shos

SCUM TALLY:

Serra: 2
Mala: 1
Shos:4
Jenn: 5
Beli: 4
Penguin: 1
Mollie: 4

Sadly, I come out on top, although that's because scum are naming me. This does not take into account, however, how strong a scum read people have on each of the various people (for example, I have Mollie listed but I would rather lynch between Shos and Beli. She just is less town than the others to me).

I think we should concentrate on deciding on a lynch among the 4's (and 5..), which would be Shos, Jenn, Beli, and Mollie.

For those who have me listed, I would like to hear from each what the case on me is, how strong a feel that is, and if I was unlynchable who their second choice would be.

@Mala/Serra/Penguin

You three have the most town cred, so should use it and help lead the charge today.


Also, our popcorn hasn't worked well for rooms, but as a top scum candidate, I'll state now where I was on Day 2: Kitchen.

[Jennifer]

Yes, shos is confbiasing on you, Jen. Do you think it's scum-motivated though?

Yes, I do.

Given I know I'm town, the only options are (1) Shos is scum or (2) Shos is a townie with poor reasoning skills. Shos seems intelligent enough that (2) doesn't seem likely to me. I guess I should do meta research on Shos to see if he is prone to tunneling insanity, but I haven't yet. That's a third option I suppose, but if that's the case, then he really should force himself to reset and take a renewed look at the game.

[Jennifer]

TOWN, if you are inclined to vote me, first analyze the reasons Shos is presenting... there aren't any good ones. He just keeps saying "scum" but without anything to back it up. The item reason is just idiotic and although he says he'd find the scumminess from my ISO, note that he's failed to do so (and to address Shos' earlier point, when you already have the conclusion that someone is scum and you go cherry pick through an ISO that is confirmation bias. It's only those that go back and read with an open mind letting the evidence point them to a conclusion that are using data appropriately).

Beli is being superbad too. He has presented no case on me other than "gut" and "sheep (of Shos)."

Guys, if you lynch me today, lynch Shos (possibly Beli, but leaning Shos) tomorrow.

We have been too inactive today, and scum is taking advantage to get another mislynch based on everyone's inertia.

[Jennifer]

In fact,

VOTE: Shos

[Jennifer]

Just because someone calls you scum doesn't mean that someone isn't.

Even now, you can't state a case on me. You don't need my ISO to state your reasons for finding me scum, yet you do... nothing.

You're scum because you are tunneling on me and rather state, "I'm going to go through Jenn's ISO to see if I come to the same conclusion" you say "I'm going to go through Jenn's ISO to prove myself right." You are sticking to your read, stating there is no way you can be wrong (and, hey, you are.), not persuing Belli on whether he had an item before, although you find that so suspicious/unlikely in me) and so are being hypocritical. On top of that, you were softly trying to push on me Day 1 when you said I needed to step up even though I was right there in the thread at the time, and you had to backpedal when I called you out on that.

You don't come across as a tunneling townie. You come across as scum trying to fake sticking to a read to get a mislynch and taking advantage of town snoozing (which I've been guilty of sleeping too).

Also, I don't believe that all scum would be on the Baby lynch, as I already pointed out. And right now you are looking a lot scummier than Beli.

[Jennifer]

I like that Mala's dayvig claim woke everyone up and got us posting again!

Beli/shos, anyone? shos' recent attack on Jen hasn't been good. I think he saw her as a weak spot and wanted to throw together a case to get her lynched, but failed.

I would love everyone to comment on this. The lack of comment either way from others is disconcerting, as is Beli not pushing my lynch at all, but just riding the wave (which does make me think it could be Beliscum not Shosscum, ugh)

@Mollie Do you think the dagger contributed to the no-kill the first night? If so, I think that it would be worth sharing more information. (Same with anyone else with info). If we know if a person or room was protected/prevented from killing happen, etc. that might help us trace who scum is too using the information we've gathered. Otherwise it feels like all this room/item gathering is proving to be more a distraction than a help to scumhunting.

Also, how many people think that we are in LYLO/MYLO. If that is the case, then we definitely should reveal everything that we know because we may not have a chance tomorrow if we get today wrong.

UNVOTE:

[Jennifer]

Ugh, let's just get this over with. I found the Dagger today which protects any target player except oneself. It has blood on it, which confirms last nights kill flavor. Whoever held the dagger yesterday killed Jake.

How could the dagger be used to kill Jake if the dagger serves to protect the target player? Unless it works like bodyguard and Jake had and used the dagger last night and so died in the other person's stead?

[Jennifer]

Ahh, missed that for some reason. I think I was just focused on the protect not lining up with kill. I need to go back and review our master list, but to me, then it would clear (as the killer anyway, could always be the non-killing scum) anyone who had an item the night Jake was killed that wasn't the dagger.

Mollie, who did you use your dagger on N1?

[Jennifer]

Happy scumday, Guille!!

I can put behind my fight with Shos and get on board with lynching Beli.

VOTE: Beli

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, why is shos's reasoning for voting Belisarius better than his reasons for voting you? You asked us to comment on the possibility of shos-Belisarius as the scum team, but do you think that shos went from trying to set you up to bussing Belisarius?

I don't think that Beli-Shos is necessarily the scum team, rather I think that one of Beli or Shos must be scum. I've flipflopped a bit on which of the two I think is the most likely scum, but I've come back around to it likely being Beli. If it turns out that Shos is bussing, I'm okay with that. We'll get rid of one scum and with another night and more information we'll hopefully be able to tag the remaining member (or two.. still not convinced with 10 that it necessarily means only 2, but 2 total is most likely.)

[Jennifer]

I was in the kitchen N2.

[Jennifer]

I fully support protecting Mala tonight, by the way.

[Jennifer]

Considering its so hard to wagon or either of them.. One of them IS scum. >.<

How is it so hard to wagon Beli? Only Shos and I are voting him at the moment. Join us.

I'm not lying about not having had an item before, but obviously I get that you have no way of knowing that. I do have an item now and it's the first one I've gotten. But because it's impossible to know if I'm lying, you need to get a better sense of me based on other tangible things.

p-edit I didn't pick up on wrench use. I'll look at that on next break and put together a list of known effects.

[Jennifer]

Okay, I went back through and I don't see anything inconsistent with Shos saying he's safe for having the wrench and the power of the wrench to move you to a room at will making an attack on your former room fail. I don't think it provides 100% protection, but I can at least see where he is coming from.

It does seem like we have a lot of blocking abilities, which makes me think there must be a lot of active powers we have failed to run into so far.

@Mollie This is my first game with items instead of inherent powers, and I haven't read any games with items either, so I'm trying to piece this together from scratch. What have been the best approaches that you have seen (that you think it would benefit town to share)?

[Jennifer]

I think we should lynch Beli, let Mala do her thing tonight, and reveal everything tomorrow (including current room location probably as it will be a good gauge as to map people out).

[Jennifer]

I have played an item game twice. Trolol. Although I have to dig both games up. One was where the items were 1shot (Clue) and the others were rotating, but I barely remember the game as a whole.

If you would like me to dig both games out I can and look through it.

That would be great, thanks. If you post the link I'll read them too.

[Jennifer]

@Penguin At one point both Beli and Shos were voting me too, so that should make you equally nervous. But really, because we don't have a scum flip at this point, I think it's best to just focus on who you think is the scummiest and vote them. Once we nail one and know for sure it's confscum it'll be easier for us to go back through the game and determine who the likely partner is.

[Jennifer]

Oh, Jennifer, believe me when I say that I wasn't wildly convinced by shos and Belisarius pegging you as scum either. What's your current read on serrapaladin?

He's gone down on my list, but more because Mala has moved up for me. He's been a pretty solid read for me so far, although once we do get a scum flip I'd want to re-read everyone. (Although being helpful with the chart does make me worry a little... ha)

Chances are the other scum was probably on the Baby lynch, which means if Beli is scum, I'd still consider Shos but would find him less likely to be.

[Jennifer]

@Mala Thanks, I'll give those a look.

@All Possible that the unfound items went to a room with someone who already had an item (can only get one). Shos, I think you should go to the missing room and see what you find.

[Jennifer]

Shos, walk me through your logic here please. You unvoted beli because you saw a town game where he voted few people and a scum game where he voted many. Then Beli says actually I have a scum game where I voted few people. So you acknowledge it's a null tell for him then and not only don't revote him but say you no longer want to vote him...why?

Thanks for the link to the games, Mala. Made me appreciate Mafiascum's site a lot! I tried to find the DT link to that first game but it wasn't there that I saw. So haven't gone thru in depth to see how they used items.

[Jennifer]

I don't know why Beli would point out his scum game.. maybe to be preemptive so it couldn't be used against him.

What is your argument on Penguin-scum, Shos? You're the only one that has listed Peng in their top 3 scum list.

[Jennifer]

I'm still confused as to why Shos now prefers Penguin to Beli because Beli pointed out a scum game he had with few votes. I'm not sure if it's because Beli and Shos are buddies, or because Shos is scum trying to manage a better mislynch, or if Shos is distracted town... I keep flipping back and forth in my head on whether Shos is scum. In some ways I think Shos could be the better lynch today, but I think I'd still have questions about Beli regardless. Ugh.. hopefully things will shake out tomorrow and give us useful insight.

[Jennifer]

Questions meaning suspicions. I am convinced either you or Shos are scum, I'm less sure on whether you and Shos are scum. I've tried to get a feel for which is more likely, and I flip flop like mad depending on when I'm reading.

Barring something crazy (which I don't see happening soon), I think that the group needs to pick between you, Shos, and me for today's lynch. I don't see why Penguin is suddenly entering into consideration, and it feels like a red herring to me. Obviously I know I'm a bad lynch pick, so for me it's really between you and Shos.

Tonight, I'm slightly leaning Shos over you because I don't understand the logic in Shos suddenly refusing to vote you and now wanting to vote between either Penguin or me.

[Jennifer]

@Mod & all: I'm heading out of town in a few hours to visit friends until Monday so am going V/LA. We need to consolidate our lynch for this weekend though. I will have some access at least on my phone so will follow and try to keep on top as I can.

[Jennifer]

lol Shos. Yes, I planned my trip to visit my friends solely so that I could try to survive a mislynch.

[Jennifer]

I'm back home.

My best bet as to what "During Night 0, you have to perform an action, if possible, and make a move." means is to tie it to the rule "Mafia are forced to kill every other night. If they choose to not kill or cannot kill during a night, the next night in which they can kill, they are forced to make the kill, as long as they have an item."

So, given that there was no kill Night 1, it means that mafia must not have had an item and/or were not in the same room/adjacent room to a townie. It also means that mafia must have picked up an item when they moved, as there was a kill Night 2, which, assuming everyone is telling the truth about whether they used an item or not, would leave Beli, Shos, or me as the suspects based on this table.

Serra, why are you voting me?

[Jennifer]

We only have 4 hours left.... time to hammer please.

[Jennifer]

I heard the gunshot too.

I was in the Library and I used a horseshoe.

I didn't see Shos claim a room he was in before he used the wrench. Where were you, Shos?

I guess I'll popcorn to Serra.

I also think that we should claim where we are today because there are fewer of us and we already have one scum down. What do you all think?

[Jennifer]

Thanks, Penguin. Eyes glazed right over that.

Is there anyone who did NOT hear the gunshot last night?

[Jennifer]

VOTE: Shos

I think that there are likely only two scum in this game, and I think the second one is Shos.

Reason includes some gut, but also comes from:

* Beli doesn't have a ton of interaction with Shos (although some)
* Beli states in this post that Shos is second scummiest to him, but not too long thereafter Beli says he trusts Shos second only to Serra. But if you read the handful of posts that occurred between those two posts, there is nothing in my mind that warrants such an about-face.
* Looking back through the voting patterns, Shosscum makes sense.
* Shos never pursued a line of questioning with Beli that he was focused on pursuing with me, regarding not having had an item in the earlier days. I still feel Shos was too obvious with the fake scumhunting. Shos brought up that Beli only said he hadn't used an item, not that he never had an item, but Beli never said whether he had an item and Shos never asked Beli, even after that was pointed out to him. Shows Shos was being disingenuous.
* Shos' latest unvote of me really bothers me. Even assuming there are 2 scum left, not 1, that's not enough of a voting block to make voting me dangerous at the moment. The fear of being perceived poorly by Penguin for voting me seems more like self-preservation mode of a scum than a townie out to get scum.

[Jennifer]

We are the sleepiest town ever. I think it's time to get votes from more players so we can get a sense of where everyone's head is at.

[Jennifer]

It's possible it's Mollie. If Shos doesn't flip scum I'd definitely look harder at her. But right now I think Shos is more likely scum than Mollie.

I don't think Penguin is scum. Shos likes manufacturing fake scumslips, like he tried again with Penguin here regarding mafia kills that doesn't fit. Penguin's responses have seemed above board.

[Jennifer]

answer me this: if you had the horseshoe on N2, why didn't you use it? why did you choose to use it tonight (and how/on who? remind me what it does again ><)(we should add a list of what each item does)

I never had the horseshoe to use N2. I didn't have any item (a point which you should well remember giving how much grief you gave me, despite the randomness of items in this game) and I used it right away. It protected me from most night actions.

And you're also lying about my not responding to your accusation of a scumslip. We argued over language ad nauseum. You'd have a lot more credibility/towniness in my eyes if you'd stop trying to make squares fit through holes. But when you refuse to acknowledge logic, the weakness in your own case, and try to twist the facts to suit yourself (and lie about facts), a big red scum sign appears before your head. It makes it so that it's hard to even consider anyone else as scum because you're so distracting.

[Jennifer]

lol

Pro-tip: Here's how things resolve:

[do any actions you can]
[Move]
[Find out if you have an item that you can use the next night]
[Wait for day to end]
[repeat above]

I didn't have any item I could use N2.

Can we lynch scum Shos now please. He's giving me a headache.

[Jennifer]

didn't she say she didn't have any items 3 nights in a row?

I did.

I had no item N0, N1, N2.
Had an item and used it N3.
We're now on D4.

You can't trust what Shos says. He makes big deals about things that aren't to try and bamboozle you from scummy him.

[Jennifer]

I'm here. Shos is the right lynch.

[Jennifer]

Your flip will give us a lot of information. We have your points of view on scum/town, and we have voting patterns.

Mala/Penguin, Why haven't you hammered Shos yet?

[Jennifer]

I find Shos being caught in a lie very funny, especially in light of:

so you're saying that you lied here.

ok.

scum found.

If there are two scum left, I think Penguin is Shos' partner. (Although I think it's likely just one, Shos) I still think Mala is town, even though she is taking forever hammering Shos... let's speed that up please!

[Jennifer]

If Shos happens to be town (and I'd be shocked at this point, frankly) then I would take a closer look at Mollie and Penguin. I have pretty good town reads on Mala and Serra atm. It's hard for me to say in advance because it would depend on what happened tonight. Frankly, I probably wouldn't look too hard at Shos' previous comments personally because he lost so much credibility with me pushing a case based on faulty logic he refused to acknowledge was flawed, but I would keep in mind the general list of suspicions that people voiced (that you can easily find by ISOing me, as I compiled them.)

[Jennifer]

I'm not a fan of no-lynch except in very limited circumstances, that don't seem to be this one. We have to lynch our best bet and if we're wrong, regroup and nail it tomorrow based on the additional data.

[Jennifer]

I ahould be voting.nl but no time to type

You realize by the time you wrote this and your followup post you could have actually voted no lynch?

It just seems really scummy to me that Shos says he thinks I am the remaining scum, but is willing to lynch Mollie instead of no lynch, when he previously stated a no lynch was better than killing him because he is town. If he really thinks I'm the remaining one, then by his own logic he must think that Mollie is town too, which would mean a no lynch would be better than killing her off, just like it would be better than killing him off.

Shos' mindset screams sole survivor to me, hence, scum.

[Jennifer]

I was in the billiard room and had a lead pipe.

I tried to use it towards the library but didn't get any feedback on whether it did anything.

Unless someone had anything new today is a repeat it seems.

VOTE: Shos

I'm on the beach until Wednesday but will try to check in on phone!

[Jennifer]

Back from vacation.

I don't understand the point in no lynching, let alone yet again. If we're trying to get more information, we should do it by lynching who seems scummiest to us, and seeing what happens from that. Otherwise, we're just allowing scum to control the game.

[Jennifer]

This game is no different than any other mafia game.. Unless we get it right (and we may!) mylo will come. We don't advocate no lunches in normal mafia games where there are PRs even tho PRs may confirm..why do so here where there is no specific pr, and our ability to get items relies on random luck.

Mafia isn't going to kill themselves. We need to lynch.

[Jennifer]

I discussed mylo because Shos raised that as a (faulty) reason to no lynch. Why are you uncomfortable about my saying mylo may come? It WILL come if we just sit around and keep doing nothing.

I don't think we're in mylo today, but we could be as early as tomorrow. Regardless, we are going to LOSE if we do not take some educated risks and lynch someone.

Heck, even if I'm the lynch, that's better than a no lynch because it will give the rest of town information to go off of... they'll be able to go back and see who was pushing for my lynch, what the voting patterns were, they can reconsider my previous posts with the knowledge that I'm conf town, and it narrows down the pool of people to be suspicious of.

The point is no lynch makes no sense.

If I can't get a consensus on Shos, I'll compromise with Penguin.

VOTE: Penguin

[Jennifer]

How would we be? There are 6 of us left. Even say there are 2 scum remaining, that means:

6 people
1 lynch

5 people at night, scum kill 1

We start tomorrow with 4 people. 2 scum. Which would be lylo. But that doesn't make today mylo.

So unless you think we have even more than 3 scum in a 10 player game, I'm not sure why you'd think we are in mylo.

[Jennifer]

derp me... I should have just thought that through, 2 scum would stall, not lynch, and kill at night for the win. Ok, I retract my statement re mylo .. if there are 3 scum total, then yeah we could be in mylo today.

How is saying that I'd compromise by voting you just being "desperate to get a lynch on anyone"? Town have to compromise all the time.

I choose you because it bothered me that we didn't lynch Shos yesterday, and you and Mala are responsible for the lynch not going through. Mala reads town to me, so that leaves you. If there are 3 scum, my bet is that it's you and Shos.

[Jennifer]

I do know, I just... am not good with numbers. It seemed that given we still have over half the people alive we're in good shape today (which we are if there are only two scum, like in normal 9p games; 4/6 still seemed good if there are 3 scum total, but I'm now on board with where things are at).

@Mollie

What room were you in D4?

I'm fine, I think, with Mala keeping her location safe.

[Jennifer]

UNVOTE:

[Jennifer]

I got paranoid that maybe there are 2 scum left, and you & Mollie were the team, and that you were calling her to the thread to do the quick 1-2 vote and seal the win, since if it is mylo then...

I at least know given my vote was on Penguin that Serra-Shos are not the team given they both posted after my vote on Penguin.

But, yeah, I do agree Mollie needs to come to the thread, even if just to tell us her room from the day before.

[Jennifer]

I... I think I need to go get my head examined....

I had 3 in my head because it's 3 to no-lynch, and I was considering "hammering" the no lynch yesterday but decided we have plenty of time and there is no reason to end the day without hearing from Mollie on where she was. So I was concerned about hammering when I saw Shos' message because it would be 3.

Anyway... I give up on trying to count!!!! So embarrassing.

[Jennifer]

Welcome, MM.

Right now we have been waiting on your slot to tell us where you were D4 (the room before you moved to the room you're in right now) and whether you had/used an item. As you'll see as you read through, we started tracking rooms/items of everyone (now considering giving Mala, possibly Serra, a reprieve from telling us).

[Jennifer]

Why are you calling me scum, MM before you even read the thread? :/

Also, did she find the pipe AFTER moving last night? Or did she have the pipe going into the night before moving?

[Jennifer]

I read the Mafia Discussion thread about the perception of scum being the ones to catch replacements up. I haven't done the research on stats, but even if true, it's not an actionable tell imo, as town have just as much incentive to talk to replacements. We needed that info from your slot as we've been kicking around no lynching after we got that info. Mollie didn't give it to us; you did.

MM isn't clear from being scum, as she just found the item after Mollie moved so she wouldn't have been able to use it last night.

[Jennifer]

Because there have been no scum kills two nights in a row, so she could have been cleared if she had an item last night before moving and if someone was in range to kill. But getting the item after moving means she didn't have use of an item last night which doesn't clear her and could explain the lack of scum kills. If she's within range tonight and there is no kill then she'd be town.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, I know. But it's still useful to see if it lines up with additional info down the road.

[Jennifer]

@MM
I'm disappointed in your poor case on me.

What specifically in my reaction to you on the last page did you find scummy?

Also, why wouldn't I vote for Beli? We hadn't found any scum, we know in a 10p game there's more than 1, and I found Beli scummy. Unless you can show me that town only ever vote one scum read, this point makes no sense.

It's also funny how on the one hand you criticize me for tunneling Shos, but on the other hand criticize me for not staying tunneling on Shos by voting Beli. You can't have it both ways.

Also also, while stating that I death tunneled Shos for two days, you fail to point out that I actually unvoted Shos and voted for someone else... which seems odd that you wouldn't call me out on that or comment. Maybe because it undercuts your point?

The only thing I agree with you on is that I think we likely have 2 scum instead of 3, which means that we can afford a mislynch today (and if I'm a question mark to everyone, then I shouldn't be in end game anyway). My only fear is the argument that we might be in MYLO, in which case I can't allow myself to get lynched and begrudgingly no lynch may be the best move (I'm not a fan generally as we can't get scum that way).

[Jennifer]

I'm hand-waving the case away because it doesn't have any merit. You've yet to point to anything I've done that scum do and that town don't.

Yes, I read the Mafia Discussion thread about the theory that scum tend to give summaries more than town, but (1) I didn't remember who wrote it (had no clue you were involved) and (2) I asked you why you called me scum because I didn't know if that was the reason or you were going to claim something else.

Also, who I go after tomorrow will depend on what happens tonight. If Shos dies tonight or is cleared by an item, obviously I wouldn't go after him. So it's weird that you're disregarding my vote on Penguin and continuing your scum argument against me based on hypothetical Jenn (as played by MM), hypothetical Penguin alignment, and hypothetical reaction tomorrow. Why are you trying to rationalize your original statement rather than adjust to the information you overlooked (and it's odd the part you overlooked were my most recent actions to your replacing in)?

It sounds like maybe I'm not the only one guilty of tunneling...

The game won't end with my lynch, by the way.

Anyway, I'm ready, I guess, to
VOTE: No lynch
and see if we can get anything useful out of tonight.

[Jennifer]

I'd prefer that we don't repeat yesterday by just letting the clock run out without reaching a majority.

Penguin/Mala Neither of you were voting when the deadline came yesterday, and neither of you are voting now. Why not?

We need one more person to hammer the no lynch and/or if you'd rather lynch someone, vote for them... but VOTE! Please!

[Jennifer]

@Mala

What info do you want/need to decide whether to lynch Peng (or me) today or no lynch? If there's some more discussion to be had, I'm all for it, but otherwise I'm not sure what we get out of just letting the 5 remaining days slowly tick by.

[Jennifer]

I was in the studio yesterday before moving. I didn't have an item.

My inclination is that each of us post everything now because I can't see a reason to hold back. Have everyone again list:
* Each room they were in starting with Night 0
* Whether they had an item each night
* Whether they used, dropped, or held an item each night.

I'm interested to hear if Penguin used an item last night.

[Jennifer]

I used the Candlestick last night; it tells you who is in rooms in your range. that makes it much harder for scum to lie about their position. if you get that item, don't say where you are, I think.

Neat. I think you should still disclose your room, but you should go last after everyone else. That way you can say whether the people you're able to confirm were truthful or if there was a discrepancy.

[Jennifer]

btw, who accoding to our lists was near the trophy room?

Everyone who was either in the trophy room, conservatory, carriage house, or kitchen.

Using the last chart posted by Penguin that would mean:
Shos
MM
Penguin

Mala is an unknown because we didn't have her claim.

[Jennifer]

I haven't been able to go back and check yet, but I recall that someone reported that one of the items lets you go any room, which may have been what happened with MM. That said, I do think Penguin's request to clearly lay out each room would be good for all of us.

Leaning voting Penguin. But want to review.

[Jennifer]

I should have time to look more carefully at 1438/movements today to work out what's going on with the movements.

Does anyone have any evidence that one of the items allows double movements?

How do people feel about Mala revealing all past rooms too so we can have a complete picture? That would be my preference.

[Jennifer]

@MM Would you please also list out your slot's item usage for each night as well?

Something isn't matching up. There are three weird things in Mollie/MM's movements:
No Fountain
N1 First said kitchen (386) then in (430) said Courtyard
N2 Library
N3 Trophy room (1046)
N4 Double move back to Trophy Room
N5 Carriage House (1332) MM
N6 Courtyard

(1) First odd thing is that Mollie said she was in the kitchen N1 when she was in the courtyard. I'm willing to overlook this though as she claims there was confusion with the Mod.

(2) It's not possible to go from the Library to the Trophy Room without two movements. @MM Did you use any item this night? If so, what and at what/who? @All did anyone use an item at MM or her claimed rooms?

(3) It's not possible to stay in the same room two nights in a row. @MM Did you use any item this night? If so, what and at what/who? @All did anyone use an item at MM or her claimed rooms?

@Penguin The reason I want Mala's movements/items is not because she's my top lynch choice, but because I think it's time to get a complete picture so I can wrap my head around what has happened this game and what can/should/might happen. At this point I feel more information is better.

[Jennifer]

@Mala Yes, I'd consider it.

@Shos Why Mala over Peng we don't win with MM flip?

@MM Was Mollie notified that she had an extra room movement the night your slot went from library to trophy room? If so, did she get to choose the room or was it selected for her?

[Jennifer]

Ugh I hate being the deciding vote in situations like these! So much pressure to get it right.

@Mala you don't seemed fazed by MM's double movement. Why not?

That rooms don't line up bothers me because I can't understand the reason for all the confusion (beyond just the double move) and seems that maybe scum tripped up trying to hide where they were and got called out when they forgot what lie they told.

On the other hand, if MM was scum I don't see why she'd start the day out clearing me, especially given she went after me yesterday. But maybe she only needs one mislynch to win so can afford to make a conf town in exchange for more town cred.

That's where my head is at the moment. Not sure what to trust!

[Jennifer]

Those are good posts, Penguin, and would be interste in hearing any rebuttal. I'm leaning towards voting MM at the moment but don't want to be hasty.

Shos, I actually don't think you're likely scum at this point but what makes you think it's 3 scum in a 10p game and not 2? Because scum presumably have a harder time to make a kill?

My flight just landed, visiting a friend this weekend so I'll be sporadically here but churning everything in my head.

[Jennifer]

VOTE: MM

My gut tells me there is something wonky here, and I don't understand Mala's lack of concern over it. Mala's point was that scum is focusing on because it's an easy hook.. maybe, but there are multiple weird things and if Mala was the cause of those weird things I think she would have come out and said so.

Hopefully this is right!

[Jennifer]

I'm glad you posted, Shos! All the silence after the flurry over the weekend is a bit eerie.

[Jennifer]

Yay! Good game, all. Was fun! Thanks, MM, for not leaving us hanging.

Was the double movement from an item or scum power or .. ?

[Jennifer]

Thanks for modding Guille! It was a fun setup. I hesitated on MM because she cleared me today, and I was so happy to finally shift into the town pile this game when I had been suspected as being scum that it made me grateful/want to believe her. But with the things that didn't line up plus no real evidence on Peng I finally voted her.