Mini 1430 - Pokémon uPick Mafia (Game Over!)

[serrapaladin]

Sup.
VOTE: fuzzy
Hi fuzzy.

[serrapaladin]

Now I can finally
VOTE: fuzzy

[serrapaladin]

^scum

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE: fuzzy

I don't even know what he's doing, but I have the distinct feeling we should leave him alone for now.

Let's try
VOTE: MadHatter

Hey Hatter, what's up with the rolefishing? "Round these parts" means you're not a newb, where are you from and how much have you played?

Speaking of rolefishing, Seanald should stop with that, too.

Mhork is awesome, why does he give you scumvibes, Wisdom?

[serrapaladin]

No, you didn't.
Derp - I need sleep.

What do you think of hatter then?

Fuzzy isn't really more weird than usual, except for his soft-claim shenanigans.

[serrapaladin]

Nah, I've given up buddying my townreads as scum, it just gets me lynched.

Not sure about Wisdom yet - although I'm slightly worried by him sort of handing out 4 preliminary scumreads in his first 3 posts.

[serrapaladin]

I'm generally worried by blanket-scumreads. If you give everyone a scumread that might be wagoned, you can then justify joining any wagon.

[serrapaladin]

It's not role fishing when I'm asking you straight out if you have the role that you're soft claiming.

Huh?

Also, could you at least answer the second part of

Hey Hatter, what's up with the rolefishing? "Round these parts" means you're not a newb, where are you from and how much have you played?

No worries Seanald, I was ill, had an odd role, and was generally off my game.

Wisdom: why is hatter town?

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, why aren't you being useful or responding to questions?

The counterwagon isn't bad.

[serrapaladin]

[serrapaladin]

Why are you speculating about Wisdom's activity? That's definitely varied across his games and doesn't seem to be correlated with his alignment. What do you guys think about his reads?

[serrapaladin]

also if you remember lord mhork, Wisdom is way more quiet than last time.

[serrapaladin]

Mhork basically disregarded it, so I didn't feel the need to comment on it, but Seanald's 92 brings it back up, which made me wonder.

Seanald, why should a different level of activity by Wisdom mean anything, given that it agrees with his site-wide level of activity?

[serrapaladin]

The hell was that vote fuzzy?

Why are we wagoning me?

Glork, why is hatter town?

[serrapaladin]

Fuzzy should claim if he's a PGO at this point, but not in general.

HadMatter is asking for votes to motivate him to play.

Glork, with 3 scum out there, isn't it a bit early to hand out townreads on PoE?

[serrapaladin]

Because there most likely are?

[serrapaladin]

Do you kill people who target you at night?

[serrapaladin]

PGO

[serrapaladin]

Your logic is bad, Glork.

HadMatter is town by PoE because you've already found three scum. The scum you've found is scum because of the bad wagon on HadMatter, who is town by PoE.

Circular logic is circular.

If fuzzy actually were scum or SK, I'm sure he'd be playing differently.

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE: fuzzy

I don't even know what he's doing, but I have the distinct feeling we should leave him alone for now.

Let's try
VOTE: MadHatter

Hey Hatter, what's up with the rolefishing? "Round these parts" means you're not a newb, where are you from and how much have you played?

Speaking of rolefishing, Seanald should stop with that, too.

Mhork is awesome, why does he give you scumvibes, Wisdom?

You die next.

VOTE: Mad Hatter

Die.

I NEVER SAID you were scum because you jumped on HM. THAT IS YOUR GUILTY CONSCIENCE SPEAKING.

So the "Die"s at Seanald and me were completely unrelated to the posts you quoted?

Try harder.

[serrapaladin]

What should I have given Seanald a slap on the wrist for?

We voted "in tandem" because we agree on the case against HM.

If you have no

a priori

townread against HM (which it seems you don't, as the only reason you cited was PoE), it doesn't make sense for you to come after us.

Unless you completely disagree with the validity of rolefishing as a scumtell, your play makes no sense.

[serrapaladin]

OK, then please explain to me how that "tell" applies here. Have you even read the game?

[serrapaladin]

My comment towards Seanald was hardly distancing and I never implied anything about his alignment.

He claimed to be able to guess Mhork's Pokemon from the last game they played, which is a much more mild version than HM's towards fuzzy. I don't see scummy intentions in Seanald's actions (as opposed to those by HM), nor did I imply them, and you are now alleging that distancing did occur so that we fit your pretty little 'tell'.

The reason I mentioned Seanald was because if he continued questioning Mhork about his Pokemon, that could indeed constitute serious rolefishing, but as is, I don't see him and HM in the same category at all. I'm not holding a double standard, because the two cases are fundamentally different.

[serrapaladin]

Not spin doctoring, just telling the truth. My current opinion of Seanald, which is the same it's been since early on, is that he's the townie side of null. He hasn't done enough to warrant a strong read either way, but none of my comments about him implied a scumread.

You can't possibly claim that Seanald's comments to Mhork deserved any more than a short mention, while I find that HM's rolefishing deserved some serious questioning and perhaps an early wagon.

[serrapaladin]

What scummy intentions do you perceive to be in HM's posts? Can you make a case?

35 and following seem to me like opportunistic scum trying to get role info out of newbtown PR with an early softclaim. It's usually only newbtown and scum that pick out and comment on soft claims, and I don't peg him as newb. That's the core of what Glork and my argument was about. I also don't like HM's following points trying to deflect the wagon and basically refusing to scumhunt until he's not wagoned anymore.

I really hope "Appeal to Glork" isn't a thing around here... I'm sure the tell has some merit, but he's very much forcing it in this case.

[serrapaladin]

Explain?

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, please explain why you disagree with the HM wagon. All your posts seem to have the implicit assumption he's town.

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, what has HM done to warrant a townread? Please don't cite Glork's PoE.

[serrapaladin]

Hey Baby, how do you feel about reasons?

[serrapaladin]

Is HM an easier target than fuzzy? I happen to genuinely think HM's behavior makes him scummy. Sue me!

I'm not even going to address the other points...

[serrapaladin]

Ask Paladin.

Fuzzy does, in general, give off a slightly scummy VI vibe.

I'm sort of concerned by the VI read on HM. He's implied that he's played elsewhere, so I'm not sure that's a fair analysis.

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE:
Hi AJ.

You haven't really read this, nopoint, have you. The discussion was about fuzzy's meta, and my comment was that he GENERALLY gives off a scummy VI vibe. I do not read him as scum this game.

Fuzzy's softclaim implied his role will in some way be useful to town. Scum will want to know what way that might be. Your assertion that scum rarely employs rolefishing is plain wrong. If they think they'll get away with it, so for example if directed at newbtown, scum will certainly do it.

[serrapaladin]

Depending on reading depends on Serra

Huh? What does this mean?

Glork doesn't need to to be lynched, he just needs to start making sense.

He fabricates this great associative tell between Seanald and me, votes me for it, and switches to Seanald when my wagon stalls. I understand you like your tell, but still: for shame!

Aj, I wouldn't discount Wisdom that easily, but I think you might have a point about TBG.

VOTE: TBG

[serrapaladin]

Not much happening really. Limo, why do you want me dead?

[serrapaladin]

62 consists of echoes of other peoples' thoughts. It's even more disgustingly scummy when he tries to proceed with a line of questioning that's been asked for like the nth time already towards HM. He doesn't actually take any original stances here but still tries to play the referee role. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure if I can form all of this gut feeling into coherent text, so.

Cool.

[serrapaladin]

But I'm not scum

I don't have time to make an actual case against anyone else, but I'd urge people to consider Aj's posts against TBG.

I'm Voltorb, Ascetic Townie, so my kill wouldn't be a big loss, but still...

[serrapaladin]

Ascetic townies are neutral/mildly anti-town roles used to pad no-vanilla games. Glork is an absolute moron if he tries to argue that my claim is unlikely.

I did indeed pick Voltorb in the hope of getting an explosive role. Seems not...

Don't much mind being lynched from a boring game though, but I'd have hoped scum would at least make some sort of case. As is, there's absolutely nothing against me, as far as evidence goes, besides Glork's ego.

Nopoint, Limo and Baby are cool choices for scum. Independent of his alignment, don't listen to Glork.

[serrapaladin]

That's L-2, btw.

[serrapaladin]

3h, I think.

[serrapaladin]

Spoiler: Aj's case

I'll willing to leave Fuzzy alone for now and let him be vidgebait or a later lynch.

VOTE: Unvote
VOTE: HadMatter

Glork's case is a stretch and a half.

I don't do wall quotes any more replacing in. So I just got this one. I've always believed in more ebbs and flows of a game then actual talking since I can be a lazy sunuvabitch when playing this game. But to this point, other than RVS, this vote quoted has been the most out of place in the whole game. Why? Well, let's talk about placement. Tbg is going to vote Fuzzy and attribute if not make fuzzy the highest wagon, placing pressure. At the same time, his questions were basically non-factors in my mind, and slightly if not completely inconsequential to the proceedings (obvious, in future pages). The fuzzy wagon is going to be stopped from going any farther forward by Wisdom and his conversation with Fuzzy. TBG tries to push his questions (again, both kind of/sort of answered and unimportant) and push them again before claiming them answered and forcing another wagon. Now, I of course hold the slot of one of these wagons, therefore having, to say the least, a unique view of the proceedings, but even barring that the vote is rather ill-timed. He seems to be trying to carry as much weight right before a fuzzy lynch becomes unpopular, heading to a second 'suspect', HM.

Distancing is, in my mind, a beginner scum tactic at the first and most basic levels of WIFOM. I personally do not believe Serra to be that trivial after having played a few games against him, but have never witnessed him playing scum. However, I think a distancing tactic is so unrefined as a scum player that it would show a novice mistake if anything by a scum team. The only issue is distancing is a really easy habit to slip into and very hard to make it seem any realistic whatsoever. It has to be balanced below a bus and above a -null- read. Hence, performing it correctly where no one notices is improbable.

Glork catching something of this sort means that it should be reviewed. I didn't catch the wording on my first reading and hence probably had zero chance of ever getting it. I'll definitely want to look into that.

HOWEVER, let it be known that these first few days will be shaky activity wise. I am making a car trip to Florida and will be driving hard basically on four hours of sleep tomorrow and the proceeding day (friday) until arriving. I expect to be able to find a place of internet once there.

Some things to note: I wouldn't take a fuzzy lynch here. Not now, when we can take a better option out. Glork, Wisdom both should be off the board. Depending on reading depends on Serra, but I personally think the best lynches come in the form of TBG or Seanald. I won't make comment on his "You better come off pro-town as fuck" because yes it's stupid, and yes he's already been rebuked for it. Note it, put it away for later.

VOTE: TBG

[serrapaladin]

End of day shenanigans yesterday is only a valid argument if you're certain I'm scum (in which case why not vote me?).

If we're approaching DL and the lynch is between two townies, scum will usually hang back, and not do the kind of stuff Wisdom or Seanald did.

[serrapaladin]

Dunno, Limo saying shenanigans sort of implies he did something scummy near DL.

[serrapaladin]

Honestly didn't check what he did. It does indeed look like hanging back.

Also, he posted elsewhere after his last post here before the deadline.

I could buy that, I guess.

[serrapaladin]

I falsely assumed the alleged shenanigans were something other than hanging back. I was lazy. Good thing I have people like you to keep me on my toes! <3

[serrapaladin]

Maybe. I'll give his posts a read tomorrow.

I remember leaning town on him yesterday, and he isn't the only one who sort of let the deadline happen. It is sort of bad that he was online before deadline though without posting.

I would like Limo to elaborate on what it is about Seanald's "shenanigans" that make him scummy. If it's 'just' the hanging back, he's not the only one, so I don't see why Limo would single him out.

pedit: lol fuffy

[serrapaladin]

Why is fuffy something my phone would autocorrect to?!

I think I need some sleep... Night all, don't lynch Seanald without me.

[serrapaladin]

Vote:Sera

Definitely not a town-town wagon yesterday. TBG's wagon came up too fast.

TBG's wagon came up so fast yesterday because the deadline was approaching so quickly. Anyone who didn't want me dead had to find a compromise lynch. Do you think scum would be so blatant in forming a counterwagon to save on of theirs?[/wifom]

Limo votes Seanald for end of day shenanigans, which I don't see. But that's neither here nor there.
Limo says he would also vote Sera, no reason given in that post.
Sera pipes up defending himself from Limo's accusations of shenanigans, which I don't think Limo made, then defends Seanald and Wisdom from shenanigans though again, no shenanigans claims against Wisdom.

Then Sera claims to have commented without thought or checking up and flip flops a bit on Seanald.

My first thought was Sera had a guilty reaction to him mis-reading Limo's vote, then tried to cover it up and leave an option to both defend Seanald and vote him.

What also bothers me is that it was NoPoint who really did some shenanigans with that Hammervote thing.

Vote Serapaladin

I thought yesterday he got cocky and slipped while tired posting.
I think the TBG wagon was a counter wagon, which can only be counter to Serra.
I think Serra's #376 is again a slip. Guilt causing Serra to defend himself against something that wasn't put forward. At least not explicitly.

I wasn't defending myself against anything. I was tired and misunderstood that by 'shenanigans' Limo meant 'hanging back'. I mentioned Wisdom because I remembered him being particularly vocal around DL, and I didn't remember what Seanald had done.

For what it's worth, if I'm tired/drunk scum, I just won't post. Your accusation of cockiness I don't understand at all. I was almost lynched yesterday - if I were scum that'd give me anything but a reason to be cocky. 376 wasn't a slip - I wasn't even defending myself. I thought Limo had made a bad argument and wanted to call him out on it.

Before he classifies what he meant by shenanigans, I still don't like his accusation of Seanald.

[serrapaladin]

I'm game for that.
VOTE: Babyspice[/b]

[serrapaladin]

Hi Mac.
^Don't give this guy a newbtown read

Apparently I don't know how to vote.

VOTE: Babyspice

Baby has been backgroundish and opportunistic as fuck.

Why am I scum, Wisdom? You seemed quite adamant about defending me yesterday.

I'm fine not worrying about fuzzy's role, to be honest.

[serrapaladin]

^Don't give this guy a newbtown read

was meant to point at Mac.

[serrapaladin]

Fine. You took the time to make a case for my counter wagon. If I was scummy, why not just let my lynch go through?

[serrapaladin]

She thinks my misunderstanding last night was a scumslip from me.

Also add hypocrisy to that list of reasons why she's scum:

Vote HadMatter

I love reasons.

I think people who go after easy targets are scummy.

I think nose rubbing scum jokes are bad.
But three hours after complaining of being tired sound slippy and nose rubby.

She gives reasons for wanting me dead and includes my apparently going after easy targets. My target at that point was HM. She also voted HM when his wagon was taking off.

[serrapaladin]

Oh come on, you'd basically answered that already. You're just jumping at the smallest things to piece together a case against me.

66 was actually honest. Look at Micro 125, which has now ended. I was scum and hardbuddied a townie, which got me lynched.

[serrapaladin]

I'll consider it if the Baby wagon doesn't pick up, but I seriously think Baby might be scum.

[serrapaladin]

It made it look like Serra was trying to shift his vote away from being next to Seanald, and Seanald from Serra. Like they were trying to break up wagon analyses tells.

I was on HM for the first half of D1 and switched to TBG. How on earth you see a correlation to Seanald's votes is completely beyond me.

Actually, it's not: you're conf biasy scum, that's how...

At least TRY to look as though your coming up with genuine reasons.

[serrapaladin]

*you're...very much you're, stupid phone

[serrapaladin]

I quoted her most recent posts. Thanks for your concern.

[serrapaladin]

Serra is still kinda null.
Preference for lynch: Baby>Serra>Seanald

So I'm null, but your second favorite lynch? Also, that claim...

[serrapaladin]

He's probably town given the claim, just playing a bit odd. At least his point against Baby makes sense.

[serrapaladin]

Makes my hair stand on end, so quite in character for fuzzy.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, I'm actually not sure about that, Wisdom. This seems to be a game with loads of roles, so I'm not sure scum will have 2 non-action roles (assuming there's 3 scum).

[serrapaladin]

Ah, yes. scumSeanald would certainly not be given the NK.

In that case scumHyperion would have no reason for that claim.

[serrapaladin]

Both RB and RC would work, which are pretty common scumroles, but I agree it's much more likely he was overeager town.

[serrapaladin]

TBG's wagon came up too fast.

which is why I also question why we rushing votes, and why the disregard for people actually on the myslynch wagon.

I find it unlikely that AJ is scum who orchestrated the counter wagon, I think multiple scum latched onto his case to make it look more viable, a heck of alot easier to do when it is close to deadline as well.

Why would scum latch on to a counterwagon to me, unless I'm scum? You gave me a townread before, so this is bullshit.

[serrapaladin]

Me and Serra are just hardcore budding man, My dick is right in his asshole air tight feeling right.

<3

[serrapaladin]

The 'rule of three' thing is just the icing on Baby's contrived case against me.

What Aj says is basically true, except that Seanald doesn't want me lynched, so I disagree with the conclusion that Seanald is scum for his post. Baby retroactively applied the "rule of three" to Seanald's post.

[serrapaladin]

Pretty much.

[serrapaladin]

Cool.

[serrapaladin]

That's L-1.

[serrapaladin]

Why is Seanald so scummy to you, Limo? Was he the only one to hang back around DL yesterday?

[serrapaladin]

Please go point out which exact posts you heralded as the savior of your reads on them.

This? I didn't think this was at me. Who are 'them'? I don't like him answering "why is Seanald scum" with "why is Seanald town", if I understand this correctly.

[serrapaladin]

You should read his recent posts, his vote on BabySpice, and try to think about why he made them.

Seanald voting Baby looks fine. I think she's scum, so he either wants to lynch scum, or possibly bus her, but I'm leaning the former. I don't see anything there bad enough to explain your certainty. His wagon analysis is a bit all over the place, but not blatantly scummy by any means.

So again, why the certainty?

[serrapaladin]

Not necessarily wrong, just not great.

TehBrawlGuy (7) -

Aj the Epic,

serrapaladin, Wisdom, fuzzybutternut,

Lord Mhork, Hyperion

,

nopointinactingup

(LYNCH)

serrapaladin (4) -

Limo, Baby Spice, Glork,

TehBrawlGuy

(L-3)
Not voting (2):

Guy_Named_Riggs,

Seanald

see if I can explain my thoughts here without you calling it bullcrap.

I never found AJ's case strong to begin with, I didn't find his case to have any counter wagon orchestration to it either, I think he was just voting and making a case on who he thought was scum on his read through when joining in, I think this makes him town because if he had replaced in as a scum slot especially one that had a large wagon to it earlier he wouldn't be so bold. Yes this contradicts my vote on madhatter but i literally thought madhatter was just pissed off scum who got pegged early and just quit which happens often. after night phase though this makes more sense.

the blues are the ones I am unsure about. it really sucks cuz i have a slight town read on all the middle people its the reason I want to keep playing this day out to get a better gage on you 3 specifically, I just dont think the probabilities are there that all 3 of you could be town.

I think Hyperion is town, it was a random ass claim which I dont find scum doing and there is no reason to ever defend me because I look scummy no matter what and gets him zero points.

Nopointactingup didn't come off looking good, I think he was trying to make sure it was Ok to hammer and looked a bit eager, Ive seen plently of town do that and I also don't see alot of scum being a hammer vote anymore, you can tell me if I am wrong on this one though.

The off wagoners are pretty suspicious to me. Im null with Mac cuz i havnt played with him before and GNR always lurks so I have almost no basis on him.

I'd like to know where all the town reads on Limo are coming from I don't understand it at all, everyone is too afraid of Glork to say he is scum, and Baby_spice came off looking worse coming into today, she was absent all yesterday in the background and comes back into today trying to push on an easy target serra.

The conclusion of Aj being town for his case on TBG is a bit of a stretch. Not sure how the night phase would change his opinion on hadmatter.

He claims he's got townreads on fuzzy, Wisdom and me, but employs a slightly spurious appeal to probability to conclude that we can't all be town. Whether scum would hammer is wine, and he is very vague as to whether he wants to give nopoint a scumread for it.

Still, they're all more or less reasonable points to make, and I don't see scum motivation in any of them.

I'm interested to see where Limo does.

[serrapaladin]

Hey Glork, if one of Seanald and I flips town, is the other one still scum?

[serrapaladin]

Does that mean you think there's a decent chance Baby and I are either both town or both scum?

How rare are scum ascetics? That'd be pretty overpowered, if you ask me, sort of like an uber GF. [/wifom]

Why would the given flips make a scum ascetic more likely than a town one? Surely Ascetic Townie is just a negative utility role for town to balance the protown PR's, in that it can't be guarded, copped, tracked etc.

Why do you think you were targeted, Glork? I think Mhork was a pretty reasonable scum kill.

[serrapaladin]

Alright then let's take a look at the TBG votes.

Note that these analysis only makes sense in the case of Sera-scum.

AJ's vote:
He replaced in and voted TBG straight off the bat. Although I don't really understand his reasoning, the intention behind it surely isn't saving a buddy
Sera's vote:
- Sheeps AJ, don't say why.
Let's take a look at the wagons at that time:
Limo (1) - Aj the Epic
Fuzzybutternut (2) - TheOneWhoKnocks, nopointinactingup
Aj the Epic (formerly HadMatter) (4) - Lord Mhork, serrapaladin, Seanald, TehBrawlGuy
serrapaladin (5) - Limo, fuzzybutternut, Glork, Baby Spice, Wisdom (L-2)
Not voting (1): Guy_Named_Riggs
- Sera had his vote on a larger wagon: the AJ wagon, so unvoting, then voting TBG couldn't have been a survival move.
Wisdom's vote:
- Wisdom did explained his vote afterwards reasonably, so I'm willing to let this vote go. He had also expressed suspicion of TBG earlier.
Fuzzy's vote:
- This one's a sheep. He didn't come back until twilight. Most of his posts so far has been non-content. He could be a buddy, but pretty much unreadable.
Hyperion's vote:
- Now this is a crucial vote. It marks the moment TBG received more votes than Sera. His reasoning was TBG jumps from one wagon to another. Not sure if that's enough. But what's also interesting is that Hyperion didn't vote immediately after his first post and his vote is enclosed with a mis-perception of the vote count on Sera, which I'm sure a scum who is trying to save his buddy would not have.

I had thought LMork could be the scumbuddy driving the counter wagon, but I was wrong. The lack of clear intentions in the above votes questions my hypothesis of a scum counter wagon so I will have to stand back and take a different look.

But even if that wasn't a counter wagon, Sera could still be scum

.

So you start your argument off under the proviso that I'm scum, and yet you argue how I could be scum. Very much begging the question.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, don't let Mac fool you though. He was pretty inquisitive scum in Less Pressure Micro 137.

[serrapaladin]

But do you mean by "don't let Mac fool you" that you have knowledge that I'm town?

I don't know your alignment and that was a general statement because he fooled me last game.

Nice try though.

[serrapaladin]

Good progression there, Wisdom.

[serrapaladin]

Huh, I'm getting odd vibes from Wisdom and Mac's back and forth.

The post that caused Wisdom's vote isn't really that bad by Seanald. I honestly thought much the same. Still, Wisdom has been strongly pro-town so far.

Individually I'd also give Mac a townread, but their exchange doesn't read particularly TvT.

I find Seanald seems genuinely distraught at approaching being lynched. For what it's worth, I'd peg that as coming from a townie.

There's always many possibilities:
1> You are scum and your partners created a counter wagon to save you
2> You are scum and your partners didn't drive a counter wagon, the wagon drove itself.
3> You are town and has nothing to worry about
I assumed that you are scum to find which of 1, 2 is the possibility. Turns out 1 is very unlikely, but it doesn't mean 2 is impossible

Why would I not have anything to worry about if you make a case for being scum?

[serrapaladin]

Huh, you'd have to survive until D6 to use all of those...

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, are you looking these up, or did you just have a very fulfilled childhood?

On a more serious note, Seanald's claim seems wrong. Other Pokemon uPicks (like the last one run as a Micro, which I think Seanald was in) seem to align moves with skills, this one doesn't.

[serrapaladin]

Oh crap, it is. It's Explosion... Why have you been guessing moves then?

[serrapaladin]

Hell if I know. We'll have to take that up with Oversoul in postgame.

[serrapaladin]

Plus it's a very good point that in order to use his abilities, the game would have to go to SIX NIGHTS. For a MINI.

Glork agrees with my point, I can die happy now.

VOTE: Mac

although Seanald also looks bad for the opportunistic claim.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, I wouldn't call people scum just for not buying the scumslip. I still don't think Glork is scum.

[serrapaladin]

Mac was irritated, and it is notoriously difficult to defend yourself against accusations of having scumslipped. I agree Mac is likely scum, but I don't agree with your certainty.

Also, I believe Limo still hasn't explained his certainty about Seanald being scum.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[serrapaladin]

I agree with Aj, but I don't want to cast suspicion on people for not being completely convinced. Mac said "that doesn't mean fuck all", which is basically the only way to defend yourself against the allegation of having scumslipped as either alignment.

Mac, you should probably claim.

[serrapaladin]

It means fuck all.

He actually said "It

means

fuck all". I don't get your point regardless. This is surrendering, this is not a defense.

It's naysaying, not surrendering. How would you have 'defended' yourself against the accusation that something is a scumslip? Baby accused me of something similar early, and the only thing I could respond with is that I derped and she was misinterpreting it.

[serrapaladin]

Seanald, was it you who used HTML tags rather than BBCode tags in a game and got mislynched for it?

[serrapaladin]

Ah yes, that's the one I meant.

[serrapaladin]

I don't understand Glork's outrage. Wisdom may have been pushing the scumslip a bit too strongly, but Mac is a good lynch and Wisdom was right to push it.

Limo's sheeping is rubbish.

Glork's Neighborizer claim is interesting. Do those exist as scum?

[serrapaladin]

He never claimed 1-shot...did you just claim Rolecop or are you scumbuddies?

[serrapaladin]

Ah, k, does that mean scum also has daytalk?

[serrapaladin]

Nope. It was a legitimate question that would change the way I look at the game. I don't know whether site meta is such that Mason/Neighbor daytalk implies scum daytalk.

[serrapaladin]

Seanald is probably town. Limo and Baby are still scum.

VOTE: Baby

Weird NK is either PR-hunting or because the most universal townreads are actually scum. It's all WIFOMy though, so probably not worth getting hung up over.

[serrapaladin]

Lol, fuzzy, that was her first post back. I mean, she's still scum, just not for that reason.

[serrapaladin]

The first one was patronizing, the second one was calling fuzzy an idiot. Please kindly get over yourself, Baby. Were either of my answers wrong?

[serrapaladin]

My first answer to a question directed at you was me being patronizing and dismissive of your point against me. My comment above, which wasn't really in response to fuzzy's question, but to his comment before that, was implying that fuzzy's post against you was bad. (It usually carries more weight when someone else calls an argument against you wrong, than if you do it yourself, so I am quite surprised you'd attack me over this. You really want me dead that badly?)

I was answering your question, I was just also attacking you for asking it.

Again, pray tell, were any of the answers wrong and why do you have a problem with me commenting on posts directed at you?

[serrapaladin]

"Silly fuzzy" is indeed how I interpret his vote, though, rather than "scummy fuzzy". Wisdom was asking about your accusation of me. I have every right to be dismissive about those accusations

Then the last part implies I am scum trying to denigrate valid questions directed at you? Are we scumbuddies, with me secretly protecting you from poignant questions, while superficially pushing your lynch? That's basically how I interpret your posts, which is one of the oddest accusations I've seen in a while.

I certainly don't

need

to respond facetiously to bad posts, I just very much choose to. If whoever poses a question wants an answer out of you, I'm sure they'll get one, even if I make a comment about it.

[serrapaladin]

Because it's fuzzy. Limo is likely scum.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, I'm not sure to be honest. She bothers me more and has said more to make her look scummy (but then, she's also said more in general), and she grabs at everything she can to make me look bad. There's never really been a Limo wagon, but his backseat wagon-driving really isn't great. I'd happily wagon either. No idea about number three yet. Glork would be two obvious. I'd have thought NoPoint, but that's obviously wrong, so I guess that would Aj as most likely.

I'd like to hear Glork chime in.

[serrapaladin]

Glork, do you really think opposite alignment odd/even JOAT's are likely?

Don't know what to think about Wisdom's alleged 'slip', but I do still see him as town, so don't really want to see him lynched.

I don't like Aj's call for fuzzy to claim. Looks a bit like nervous scum that want to know if they can target him or not.

[serrapaladin]

Why is it bullshit? He never really claimed what he does, I can think of several things he could be that fit with his softclaim. I also don't peg fuzzy as the sort of player that would fake softclaim a weird role that early.

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, technically PGO is an initialism not an acronym.

I like you!

[serrapaladin]

Glork/Wisdom is looking pretty TvT right now, but is sort of drowning out anything useful.

If there was scum on the TBG wagon, my guess is Aj, but I don't think there necessarily has to be.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, could do. Partial massclaims are pretty anti-town, and we're already halfway through. Opinions?

UNVOTE: Baby
VOTE: Limo

[serrapaladin]

That includes you, fuzzy.

[serrapaladin]

If you think that, then where's the harm in claiming?

[serrapaladin]

All the best, baby.

Fuzzy is probably town.

[serrapaladin]

To everyone else: I don't know if that's totally legit or not - haven't played my fair share of games with commuters. It seems to make a bit of sense though, can anyone affirm that it's set-up consistent?

This is bad.

As to Glork's case on me: I felt justified in my vote on MH. Then Glork made a "case" implicating Seanald and me as scumbuddies, which I know to be false, so I discredit the case...big surprise? TBG was a counterwagon to me, and I thought he might be scum, so I voted him.

You don't know whether the MH vote was good or not (unless you're scum), and I still like my Baby vote. I'm now voting Limo, because he's also scum, and the Baby wagon was dead. Mac was a mistake, but one many of us made. My change in opinion on Seanald came with Mac's flip. An odd-night JOAT makes an even-night JOAT much more likely, and I don't think a scum/town JOAT pair is likely.

I did give my opinion on claiming, which is that partial mass-claims are anti-town, I'm just not arrogant enough not to want other opinions.

[serrapaladin]

Is Limo actually just straight out refusing to claim?

Limo, people are more suspicious of you than of Wisdom, so it's really your turn to claim!

[serrapaladin]

Wisdom, there is no reason for you to want everyone's abilities though. There would have been clever ways to cross-confirm results...

[serrapaladin]

But wanting EVERYONE to claim abilities destroys any chance of confirming your role. Which is bullshit.

[serrapaladin]

That's not what I got from 1157.

[serrapaladin]

Anyway, I used it only on N2

This didn't really sound like it's 1-shot.

[serrapaladin]

Well yeah, one of Seanald and Limo is almost certainly scum.

Seanald, care to claim your night action?

I don't really like Wisdom's claim. No breadcrumb for Mean Look, either...

fuzzy and hyp are town.

[serrapaladin]

But that could just as well mean you have a well-thought-out fakeclaim. None of the other roles mention the flavor and given that some of the moves have little relation to the ability, I'm doubtful.

[serrapaladin]

To confirm yourself.

[serrapaladin]

Huh...

So one of Glork/Aj, one of Limo/Seanald and Baby or maybe Wisdom...

This claiming thing is really not helping Wisdom, although I would have read him as town for the rest of his play.

[serrapaladin]

I'm not scum...The pairings are according to contradicting/unlikely claims. I'm unsure about Wisdom.

[serrapaladin]

Meh, I really still think Wisdom is just a townie who fucked up his claiming/crumbing.

[serrapaladin]

First post back D2 could've been something like "Limo is looking horrible" - doesn't give away anything but you can clearly point to it as a mean look crumb to confirm your role. Also the whole 'only mentioning 1-shot when asked' thing.

[serrapaladin]

then you could have made it more subtle. or used something like first letters of sentences to spell 'mean' or something...but not wait for him to claim and then say "yeah, that's what my result said, too. oh, btw, I'm 1-shot, so no confirming".

[serrapaladin]

Yeah, I remember thinking that must be a crumb of sorts, but it seems not?

[serrapaladin]

How are you in another one of my games?

fuzzy survived because of his newbtown early vengeful softclaim. Not something I can see him do as scum at all.

For all but his claim, I've been following Wisdom's logic and got the impression he's genuinely scumhunting. I don't see him doing stuff like the last-minute D1 case against TBG as scum.

[serrapaladin]

Mala, do you have a result for last night?

[serrapaladin]

*Mara

[serrapaladin]

I need a different nickname. I think I might go back to Ms Marple.

Wisdom, why do you think Limo would fakeclaim Watcher after Seanald claimed it as part of his JOAT?

(yeah triple post!)

[serrapaladin]

Right... I don't know, I guess I just don't like the idea of Oversoul reusing roles, even in JOATs. How's the meta here regarding that? Given the Roleblocker, I'm starting to think Seanald might be a even-night JOAT with different scum-abilities.

[serrapaladin]

fuzzy and MM are town. Glork and Wisdom probably, too.

Seanald is likely scum by role overlap. If he's indeed a JOAT, that could well make Limo town.

Baby is still scum and the third one is probably Aj.

VOTE: Seanald

Town doesn't have a 2shot roleblocker and a JOAT with 1shot roleblock...

[serrapaladin]

Do you think both Aj and Glork might be town?

[serrapaladin]

Huh, you might actually have a point there.

I thought Hyperion claiming so early must be town, but if he did it to try to clear a scumbuddy, that makes sense.

[serrapaladin]

I REALLY don't like how Serra switched gears to Seanald just as Limo went to BS, and I asked Wisdom about BS.

But I've been going after BS for most of the game and still think she's likely scum? I just finally made the connection that Seanald claimed to have the same role as a flipped townie as part of his JOAT, which I find exceedingly unlikely as town.

[serrapaladin]

If he's scum he won't, but in the off-chance he's town, it's better to have his claim.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: Marangal

No, you.

[serrapaladin]

No way would she investigate fuzzy over Limo, particularly if she has Limo leaning scum.

[serrapaladin]

Serra actually makes a pretty good point regarding Marangal.

I hate that you sound surprised <3

[serrapaladin]

Except they didn't give us a free lynch. They just kept us at even numbers. This'll eventually but us at MyLo, when we'll just end up No Lynching.

It just delays having to decreasing the lynchpool.

[serrapaladin]

Although, even then, Glork was a pretty obvious kill...

[serrapaladin]

Did we ever establish whether Aj is xshot?

[serrapaladin]

Why am I scum? Also, why would scum-serra start bussing Seanald just as attention is focusing on Baby/Wisdom?

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised Wisdom didn't notice the discrepancy in claims, given how active he was about the whole claiming thing.

[serrapaladin]

Did you message anyone?

[serrapaladin]

Huh?

[serrapaladin]

Cool.

[serrapaladin]

We don't have any blocking/protecting roles and there's no way scum tried to kill Baby or me. Also, given how quickly everyone was back for day start, I highly doubt scum just fucked up. I'm pretty sure they actively chose to No Kill.

I am sort of confused as to why Glork thinks the No Kill is good for town. It doesn't allow us another lynch at all - we still get at most one mislynch. However, because scum didn't kill, the lynchpool is now larger.

That being said, Glork was really the only obvious target for last night, so scum either chose to keep him alive, or he's actually scum.

[serrapaladin]

Because I'm not targetable, so can't be confirmed, and people keep wanting to lynch me.

[serrapaladin]

Look, fuzzy is town. We might as well keep him alive to LyLo.

[serrapaladin]

^are those two statements meant to be related?

[serrapaladin]

and your going to believe what you want to believe. Me and Serra are just hardcore budding man, My dick is right in his asshole air tight feeling right.

Yeah, links...

[serrapaladin]

Glork, are you thinking 3+traitor?

[serrapaladin]

I'm getting bad vibes from Glork with this whole traitor thing... That's a pretty far-fetched explanation for the lack of kill, so I'm surprised he would focus on that theory.

Here's to hoping Marangal was actually scum.

[serrapaladin]

Well, if there's any doubt about fuzzy's alignment, we should probably lynch him and vote on who he should target?

I really don't like Glork trying to push the traitor idea. It's a possibility, but it's slightly odd for a uPick. Traitor doesn't really fit with a move either.

[serrapaladin]

This'll only work if it's 2-1 LyLo though. If it's 3-2, fuzzy's lynch takes us to 2-2. Even if he gets scum, after the nightkill we'll be at 1-1, so scum wins.

[serrapaladin]

It bugs me that #1 scumspect suggests a good idea. It bothers me more that #1 town read suggests a pro scum modification to it.
Bothers me even more that Fuzzy is in favour of the modified version.

That's cause I'm town...

[serrapaladin]

Aren't Vengeful the ones that only work when lynched?

I'm really worried that Glork is actually scum. I think the No Kill makes perfect sense if he is, as he was the most obvious NK target N3. I think he's trying to draw attention away from that fact with his musings about a potential traitor, for which there is no in-game evidence. With Aj's Messenger role flipping town, it would make sense for the other communication role to be scum.

It's interesting that on D1 he was incredibly vocal about his alleged associative tell that proved Seanald and I are scum together. Now that Seanald has actually flipped scum, he doesn't really seem interest in following that line of argument anymore. If he were town and genuinely believed in his D1 case, Seanald's flip should have brought him right back to it, but instead he still wants to lynch Baby. Glork's switch to Baby wasn't particularly well justified, and I still think she's scum, so I could see Glork bussing her, if he believes to be able to survive in MyLo with for example Wisdom, Limo and me. Baby's role is sort of the counterpart to mine, so it'd make sense to her being scum, too.

[serrapaladin]

I'm honestly quite happy about fuzzy being town. I really don't see him coming out with a fake softclaim early D1 as scum. Still, if he's town, he's a probably nightkill if we no-lynch, so we might as well lynch him and direct the venge-kill today.

[serrapaladin]

Actually, do we still have any useful night actions? If we do, another night from no-lynching could be useful.

[serrapaladin]

Actually, do we still have any useful night actions? If we do, another night from no-lynching could be useful.

Yup, I'm totally trying to avoid another night.

[serrapaladin]

fuzzy, why am I scum?

[serrapaladin]

My role PM says so. Also, why the hell would I refuse to bus Seanald all game, just to start the wagon that would lynch him when attention had turned away from him?

[serrapaladin]

[serrapaladin]

That's bullshit. My changing attitude towards Seanald really didn't give me much towncred at all. I genuinely had a townread on him until I found the discrepancies in his duplicate role. Both bussing him early or holding on to my townread would make much more sense as scum, no matter how much fuzzy waves around your WIFOM flag.

Glork No Killing was actually the optimal play if he's scum. 8 alive is actually better for scum then 7 alive, particularly when the least widely suspicious player is actually scum.

[serrapaladin]

I have the bad feeling that regardless of our pseudo-vote, fuzzy would end up vengekilling me, so I'd prefer a No Lynch.

[serrapaladin]

The latter buys us another night for nightactions. I'm inconsistent on this because I genuinely don't know which is better.

[serrapaladin]

Yup, so you need to weigh "chance of fuzzy being scum" against "chance of your PR being useful".

[serrapaladin]

I think you're vastly overestimating the chance of fuzzy-scum. He really isn't the sort of guy to fake soft-claim early D1, so I would be pretty surprised if he flipped scum.

In 2-1 LyLo Fuzzy's ability is again useful though. Also, you are nowhere near conftown, so another night would clear that up.

[serrapaladin]

Of course not, but in deciding whether to lynch him or no lynch, we have to discount for how unlikely it is for fuzzy to be scum.

[serrapaladin]

If one of the investigative roles is scum, I would say Wisdom. Not only does is his role slightly out of place, in that it is the only one that refers to flavour, but it also somewhat resembles a role cop, which isn't a common town-role. Besides the potential of catching scum in a lie about their ability, it's almost entirely useless. Then, when he claimed, he somehow only mentioned his 1-shot after being questioned on potentially confirming it.

Mike seeing a Baby/I scumteam and saying Wisdom has been really good is a bit off.

[serrapaladin]

I'm still leaning Baby, but not by much. Gut very much points to Baby, but I question Wisdom's claim the most.

[serrapaladin]

Well
VOTE: fuzzy

I fear that fuzzy will mess up, but just the possibility of him being scum doing all this so we don't lynch him is enough to keep my opinion that he should be lynched.

More proof that Wisdom is town.

Don't like this...

But yeah, I suppose there's not much more to say. It's really up to fuzzy, and any general vote from us is going to be biased.

[serrapaladin]

Of course fuzzy was town. No way he would fakeclaim vengeful...

Wouldn't want to be in your shoes now, fuzzy. I'd probably go for Wisdom.

[serrapaladin]

You make an excellent point, but draw completely the wrong conclusion. There wouldn't be a scum Ninja and a scum Ascetic, but falseclaiming Ascetic D1 would be incredibly silly. My claim could be proven wrong way too easily. All it would take is Marangal targeting me over Fuzzy, and I'm fucked.

I said I'd go for Wisdom because I truly believe you're scum. Your claim doesn't fit with the rest of the game. You "forgot" to mention 1-shot, and only mentioned it when I asked about confirming your role.

VOTE: Wisdom

[serrapaladin]

holy fuck balls, this game...

ability is Extreme speed

[serrapaladin]

My ability is Mean Look.

It's your turn, buddy.

Kay.

I am Eevee, and if I haven't made it obvious already, I'm an Ability Cop.

My ability that does that is Focus Energy.

fuzzy, Glork, Hyperion, your abilities please.

Anyway, I used it only on N2, on Limo. He indeed has Mean Look.

I wanted Limo to claim first because if he claimed anything that wasn't in Gastly or Zubat evolution lines he would be lying.
I wanted fuzzy and Glork to claim before me to ensure none of them have Mean Look and my investigation was redirected to them.

I think I made it too obvious however, so any chance of him claiming a different Poke/ability was lost.

Besides, Limo wanting me to claim before him told me that he probably knew I investigated him and had some kind of result on him.

Oh, I forgot to mention it was 1-shot, which is why I didn't use it on N1.
It's not like I would have a chance to confirm it anyway.

Yeah, no. You're scum. I was an idiot townreading you early on.

[serrapaladin]

Extremespeed would be easy to guess

Using it N2 only implies you could have used it other nights...

And saying how what I did was pro-town negates it?

Finally, I wouldn't want Seanald to die at all if I were scum. Bussing him after doing lots of defending makes no sense.

[serrapaladin]

Oh ffs.

So I was right with my paranoia :/

gg, scum

[serrapaladin]

Good game, thanks for modding OS!

My town LyLo record is getting pretty bad...

Sorry I wasn't really at the top of my game. I shouldn't have given up on pushing baby halfway through, and I shouldn't have valued my consideration of how likely Wisdom's claim was over my gut-feeling about Glork. Seanald had a fairly unlucky claim, but in the end Glork pulled through. Well played!

[serrapaladin]

I was never going to convince anyone of Glork, so I thought I might as well double down on Wisdom and go after his claim.

[serrapaladin]

^Ha, I hadn't noticed that. We were actually pretty lucky then