Mini 1520: Neighborhood Mafia - Game over!

[goodnight]

/confirm n stuff

And let me just say I am delighted to mention that this head will be V/LA until Saturday evening in the EST.

[goodnight]

Vote Landmind

Come at us, bro!

-Night

[goodnight]

What's with the (A)?

It's a smiley <-- that one.

And Landmind had a very confusing way of speach ._. Adding to that, the wrong avatar as everybody know that Tomie is better than Shoichi *glare*

I've been waiting for three days to vote this scum.

VOTE: Sanhora

What did you find scummy about that post?

-Night

[goodnight]

The awkwardness and discomfort is so thick you need a chainsaw to cut through it.

To be honest, Landmind is quite discomforting.

@Landmind: This game is a completely open setup, which means you know just as much about it as I do. If you want clarification, ask the mod, not me, as he made the final decisions. All private insight I have on the game is purely based on its development, and I will not get into that until the postgame. I took all precautions when signing up for this game and made sure that I would not have an advantage over anyone else in regard to setup knowledge. If this game was not completely open, I would have never signed up. Trust me, I take this very seriously. So you can take your subtle assertions and shove them, because I don't take accusations of cheating lightly, even if it's done jokingly.

Tunneling is scummy, even in RVS.

Tunneling is a null action. Besides, I believe Ald is right. Landmind is making it a point to hit below the belt, and I don't see that coming from town.

-Night

[goodnight]

Hmmmmm...

Vote: Mac

-Good

[goodnight]

What I meant by 'secrets' is that you had the chance to discuss the setup with Thad, and he probably brought up specific edgecases and situations where he was worried the balance had slipped -- things like that, where his analysis was probably deeper than mine, and where you might have picked insights up osmotically. I've analyzed the setup -- I've written two pages of notes on the setup, actually, but I think it's very likely there are things you know or have considered that I haven't.

Actually, it was more like ThAd said, "Hey you want to review a setup? Here it is." and plopped it in my lap. Most of the concerns were mine, as were most of the change suggestions. As I said, I really don't have as much insight as you'd think, and anything I have to say about the setup is best reserved for the postgame.

Pre edit: So dgb, do you believe in super duper secret scumtells that aren't really scumtells?

ARE YOU TRYING TO TEACH ME HOW TO SCUM HUNT

Well somebody has to. Why not the confirmed town? Speaking of which, why'd you feel it necessary to respond in that way to someone who is only trying to understand your thought process?

I'm not sure what to think about the Ald/SSK back and forth. Both of their actions toward each other are a little strange and don't come off as genuine. Leaning toward mutual distancing atm.

-Night

[goodnight]

@goodnight: What's not genuine about either of us?

Just the way you both suddenly backed off your votes just didn't feel right to me. It felt staged.

-Night

[goodnight]

He votes you for voting Landmind.
You appease him by unvoting.
He continues to push you.
You point out your unvote.
He immediately unvotes you.

I'm sorry. That doesn't feel like a genuine interaction to me. If you felt that Landmind was actually scum, why would it matter if someone is voting you for it? Similarly, why would SSK immediately unvote you after you point out you're no longer doing the action he voted you for in the first place? The normal reaction would be to suspect your unvote and your pointing it out, but SSK accepts it immediately, as if you were going "Hey buddy, I'm no longer voting that guy and have moved on. Stick to the plan. You can lay off me now.".

-Night

[goodnight]

I voted Landmind because Landmind changed his posting style, not to appease MafiaSSK.

Why does that matter? Couldn't Landmind be scum trying to appease town so as not to be lynched?

-Night

[goodnight]

He could be, but if I chose to interpret it that way for no reason then that

would

be tunneling.

Your point being what? That you didn't want to give SSK a reason to vote you? Sounds self conscious to me.

-Night

[goodnight]

What's your read on Landmind?

Leaning scum. I don't like his posting style either, as I feel it's a smokescreen he can hide behind. I also didn't like how he tried to imply we were scum for not sharing what we knew of the setup. I didn't like the way he backpedaled when I attacked him for his allegations. I don't like how he tried to appease the town when he saw that his posting style was garnering suspicion. And finally, I don't like how he's trying to manipulate the setup by finding a backdoor to figure out the mod's intentions. Given the way the game is put together, there is no town motivation for that, as the scum side of the setup is pretty straight forward. The only side that would benefit from such knowledge is scum, as they would need to have a better understanding of how the town power would work, since there is more and it is also more varied.

-Night

[goodnight]

Hmmmmm...

Vote: Mac

-Good

Explain?

1. He didn't post a case so I can only assume he agrees with DGB's assessment of sanhora. Problem with that is I don't think English is his first language.
Could be wrong, but that would explain the stilting far better than "oh it feels scummy"
2. He didn't post a case. Granted pot calling kettle here, but A. I'm posting one now and B. I don't like that.
3. Implied minor sheeping of DGB.
4. He didn't say hi :[

I've been mildly distracted recently. Expect me firmly ensconced in this game shortly.

-Good

[goodnight]

goodnight - do you think your mac read is currently better than you ssk/ald read?

Different heads. Different reads. I'm assuming my reads are a little stronger, since I was given the go ahead to change our vote if I wanted to.

-Night

[goodnight]

Maybe we have a vig?

FuDuzn can hand out a 1-shot vig ability, but it has to be used that night and can never be used again.

-Night

[goodnight]

1. He didn't post a case so I can only assume he agrees with DGB's assessment of sanhora. Problem with that is I don't think English is his first language.
Could be wrong, but that would explain the stilting far better than "oh it feels scummy"
2. He didn't post a case. Granted pot calling kettle here, but A. I'm posting one now and B. I don't like that.
3. Implied minor sheeping of DGB.
4. He didn't say hi :[

I've been mildly distracted recently. Expect me firmly ensconced in this game shortly.

-Good

please tell me you have more to go on, if not shame on you.

1. Top of page 3.
2. He's got a single content-y post.
3. Fuck off.

goodnight - do you think your mac read is currently better than you ssk/ald read?

What Night head said.
Like I said, my V/LA sort of worked against me here; expect me firmly ensconced in this game shortly.

He's saying "I'm not doing antitown things" and "hey, even if I were to start doing antitown things, I wouldn't necessarily be scummy" at the same time. So what the underlying meaning here is is that he expects to get caught doing antitown things and he already wants to throw down a shovel for when he needs to dig himself out of that particular well.

Actually, in general, the last few pages have been all about that distinction, and I have a feeling that's going to be a recurring theme for a while now.

Orrrr... he might just feel the need to reiterate "that distinction" because for all practical intents and purposes it's true?

I'm going to have to agree with my other head on you with your whole mountains from molehills thing on this one.

How much more would you expect at this stage in the game? Just a few pages in, we can see that three of the four reasons are perfectly valid and would be considered minor scum tells, thus the vote.

absolutely none of those reasons are minor scumtells. The sheeping is kind of a pet peeve of mine but others say that is null since town sheep probably more then scum.

It's not necessarily because he was sheeping, but because he was sheeping

DGB

. That's an important distinction which is why that tidbit was included in my list.

-Good

[goodnight]

Unvote

Vote Landmind

I think both heads are in agreement on this one.

-Night

[goodnight]

Someone care to explain this landmind wagon? I'm not seeing it.

How is it a wagon if there is no one else on it?

-Night

[goodnight]

What's your read on Landmind?

Leaning scum. I don't like his posting style either, as I feel it's a smokescreen he can hide behind. I also didn't like how he tried to imply we were scum for not sharing what we knew of the setup. I didn't like the way he backpedaled when I attacked him for his allegations. I don't like how he tried to appease the town when he saw that his posting style was garnering suspicion. And finally, I don't like how he's trying to manipulate the setup by finding a backdoor to figure out the mod's intentions. Given the way the game is put together, there is no town motivation for that, as the scum side of the setup is pretty straight forward. The only side that would benefit from such knowledge is scum, as they would need to have a better understanding of how the town power would work, since there is more and it is also more varied.

-Night

Doh!

[goodnight]

1. He didn't post a case so I can only assume he agrees with DGB's assessment of sanhora. Problem with that is I don't think English is his first language.
Could be wrong, but that would explain the stilting far better than "oh it feels scummy"
2. He didn't post a case. Granted pot calling kettle here, but A. I'm posting one now and B. I don't like that.
3. Implied minor sheeping of DGB.
4. He didn't say hi :[

1. yeah I liked DGB's assessment but I was also trying to analyse baldeagle. it worked. is that bad?
2. is that bad?
3. is that bad?
4. is that bad? (HI! I HOPE YOU'RE TOWN)

1. I like it a lot better from that angle, so not necessarily.
2. I don't like it.
3. Yes.
4. Only because it hurt my feelings or something.

2. He's got a single content-y post.

so? it's early doors. you mad for 1351?

My point there being it's difficult to make a substantial case off one post.

I am so mad for 1351.

-Good

[goodnight]

Wow I didn't miss much while I was gone...

-Good

[goodnight]

VOTE: Jake

I don't like this. This was opportunistic as fuck.

Why is it opportunistic?

-Night

[goodnight]

VOTE: Jake

I don't like this. This was opportunistic as fuck.

Why is it opportunistic?

-Night

Because Jake was simply misunderstanding that it was NS's meta to townhunt, and Mac just hoped on in a bad way.

It doesn't look like Jake is misunderstanding. It looks like he's holding a grudge from a previous game and is tunneling on NS for policy reasons, at the expense of all other scumhunting. With that in mind, I can kinda understand Mac's reasons for voting Jake. I didn't see the vote as opportunistic at all.

-Night

[goodnight]

Do have a question to start off though. Should we put the operation of the treestump in the public domain and have a side unofficial vote on it? OR do we think scum would have too much influence in that type of decision so as to make it unlikely it would end up being a townie?

The treestump should not reveal what actions he's going to take, as that give scum too much information, and also allows them to manipulate said actions. The treestump is conf. town. We should trust him to act in the town's best interest.

-Night

[goodnight]

Goodnight's apparent tunneling of me makes me feel like tunneling Alduskkel less -- you can't pick one wagon until you've tasted them all, after all.

I thought we were hunting for scum, not just jumping on wagons.

Is it just me or is Goodnightpost #108 pretty interesting as a response to #107? That is, the way it doesn't really follow the previous posts at all, and it's a sudden switch from a theoretical Ald/SSK scumteam to an Aldscum-afraid-of-SSKtown theory. It bothered me earlier and it's bothering me a lot more now that I give it a second look

I'm still trying to figure that mess out. Part of me says they are scum together, another says that they are not. I decided to vote my stronger read and sort them out over time.

I don't like people who can't keep their conspiracy theories straight.

Are you saying Ald and SSK are town?

-Night

[goodnight]

Do have a question to start off though. Should we put the operation of the treestump in the public domain and have a side unofficial vote on it? OR do we think scum would have too much influence in that type of decision so as to make it unlikely it would end up being a townie?

If I'm correct in assuming you meant "select the neighbour(s)" rather than "select the action(s) distributed" then I think it's probably a bad idea. (If you mean the latter then it's

definitely

a bad idea, as stated.)

Or do we usually reveal PRs at the beginnings of games here?

-Good

[goodnight]

I WAS AT THE BEACH

Goodnight: Which of the current major wagons do you think are scum-motivated or led? (Which are town?)

REMINDING MYSELF TO LOOK AT THIS WHEN AWAKE

-GOOD

[goodnight]

Goodnight: Which of the current major wagons do you think are scum-motivated or led? (Which are town?)

Idk. I know I don't like the Espeonage wagon. Also, if one of Ald or SSK is town, the one on town probably has scum on it. GM and I need to regroup, as I think we are both out of sync on the game. I am liking the Dolittle wagon, though.

Ald, the reason SSK's lynch is inevitable is because he's chronic lynchbait. He's playing badly enough that he's eventually going to say something so scummy that we'll have no choice other than to lynch him.

-Night

[goodnight]

*sigh*

Unvote

Vote DrippingGoofball

-Night

[goodnight]

Flail some more. That will make us change our vote.

Also, aren't you voting NS? Now you're calling him town?

-Night

[goodnight]

Life problems + site problems = sad sad me.

On the plus side, I don't disagree with where our vote presently is.

- Good

[goodnight]

DGB is better. Because of three reasons of increasing importance.

1. DGB is reading badly. Which is weird. (Fallacy but still)
2. She has rather good interactions with hard to read people such and landmine. Which means her lynch has lots of info.
3. Sheis always a good lynch because she's dgb.

Oh really. An info lynch of a player that gets routinely NK'd on night 1. Bravo.

That AtE...

DGB, what's your read on SSK? If it's scum, please move your vote there. I want an SSK lynch today.

Meh. I don't think he's more likely to be scum than anyone else's odds.

Let's see. Nobody on DGB's wagon has been able to sell it and it's patently ridiculous. This is textbook DGB townplay. On the plus side I don't really see her being lynched today without shenanigans. I guess aside from DGB nobody on that wagon gives me great feelings.

Actually, this is not textbook DGB town play at all. DGB is aggressive as town and tries to push through her scumreads, often bumping heads with several players. DGB in this game is reserved, almost disconnected from what is going on. I'm seeing a lot of indecisiveness in regards to her reads, and she isn't pushing for her scum reads as hard as I'd expect. In fact, she almost seems to be leaving her options open.

Esp really wants to be liked and seems to spend a lot of his time being quietly desperate.

I'm not seeing this at all. Why are all your reads backward and fake?

-Night

[goodnight]

That AtE...

Thank you for the 3-lettered, illuminating, lazy-ass wikitell.

If a simple phrase or emoticon can get across what I think better than a sentence or paragraph, then of course I will use it. After all, saying "That AtE..." is simpler than saying "Look at DGB trying to guilt the town into not lynching her...". By the way, the strawman is noted.

-Night

[goodnight]

Are you calling the conf. town scum?

-Night

[goodnight]

That's a really shitty case. The only thing that goodnight says in that post is basically "AtE."

No, our main point for DGB-scum was that she was not playing according to her town meta. Why did you use the weakest point to represent our case?

Also, we're going to lynch DGB so hard for that hammer.

-Night

[goodnight]

Yep, because we have four scum in the game.

Where'd you get 4 scum?

-Night

[goodnight]

Morph. How do you feel about your neighbour? Alignment wise.

And this question is supposed to help how?

And does this look like fishing or is that just me?

Also, I'm back.

-Good

[goodnight]

And this question is supposed to help how?

And does this look like fishing or is that just me?

It's an, are we lynching your neighbour or normal day?

And how is it fishing? We know they successfully neighboured. There was the vig kill. And I'm not asking who they neighboured. Just how they feel about their neighbour.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I think going off the reads of one slot, even if that slot is Cabd and ffery and even if they have the additional info from the neighbourhood, is a bad idea. Fuck me, right?

1. Of course they neighbourized successfully, I don't think there's any mechanic that would stop them.
2. See response to first question.
3. Why are you assuming their neighbour is alive? There's nothing to say that one of the dead wasn't the neighbour.
4. I think asking the treestump to provide anything but scumreads isn't a great move.
5. Telling us their neighbour is scummy would require them to tell us who it is.

-Good

[goodnight]

We want everyone to give a full 3-man team in order of strength. Espi is right that tomorrow is lylo if we fuck it up. This setup actively takes a mislynch away from town.

Will update upon re-read, but presently I have weirdfeels on Landmind, baldeagle, PI.

I recall having a townread on Esp from yesterday but today's posts make me want to revisit that.

I think DGB is Town but the other head disagreed last time we discussed her.

-Good

[goodnight]

This head is V/LA until Tuesday

-Good

[goodnight]

Goodnight -- Since when was DGB more aggressive and forceful about pushing her reads as town? Last I checked play that looks like that falls far more into her scum meta. I'm still willing to excuse a lot of her play even post-hammer as 'weird DGB play' -- before you claim she was going out of her way to escape that wagon, remember that she basically started that wagon for the purpose of making a political statement. It's harder to call it evasive when you remember the hole she was caught in was a hole that *she* dug, and I'd need to see a pretty effective description of how her play is beyond ordinary wacky DGBplay to really start voting for her.

DGB has always been very aggressive in pushing her reads when she is town. You can see that in my games with her here and here. Her play in this game has been uncharacteristic of her town game, which is why I think she's scum.

@Morph: GM and I have gone over our individual reads. We both agree that Landmind is scum, although we strongly disagree on DGB. I expressed my scumread of Ald, which GM said she's going to look into. I still don't see what she or others see in PrivateI or Bald. Given that, our individual top 3 would be as follows:

Good - Landmind, Bald, PrivateI
Night - Landmind, DGB, Ald

Vote Landmind

-Night

[goodnight]

^And this is why DGB is Town.

-Good

[goodnight]

^And this is why eagle is Scum.

-Good

[goodnight]

Do you have pro-scum motivation for any of her most recent play?

Her most recent play is not standing out to me, which is pretty incriminating in my opinion.

Let me just be explicit here. At that point I (green-text) thought Goodnight was bullshitting their reads and either tunneling to exaggerate legitimate feelings or trying to be devious and pressure Alduskkel into making a decision he wouldn't have otherwise made. I didn't thnk Goodnight was onto anything clever or accurate in particular (although at this point I think Night's Ald read is genuine and I have hesitant-town on them) and thought their play seemed very forced. I was

contemplating a case

with those notes.

I spent most of d1 trying to sort my reads in regards to you/Ald/SSK.

If we had a vote, we'd be putting it on Espeonage or privatei today. Choose your fetish.

Espeonage is town. No clue about PrivateI, but I really don't see the scum case on him.

Why was Mac nightkilled?

Either her suspicions were too close for comfort or they thought she was a PR.

I disagree with my other head on this. Speculating on the NK does not make a person town.

@Mod: This head is going to be V/LA until the 18th. I'm getting my upper wisdom teeth removed and will be recovering.

-Night

[goodnight]

Why was Mac nightkilled?

Either her suspicions were too close for comfort or they thought she was a PR.

I disagree with my other head on this. Speculating on the NK does not make a person town.

Bulbaaaa
it is the latter half of the sentence you silly

and shame on the rest of you for not asking what i meant

@Ald: I can't speak for Bulba on this, but I can speak for me when I say my reread has reaffirmed my townread on him.
Not going to pull up any posts for this atm because no contacts in right now so can't really see, but much of his early posting is so much better than a lot of what was going on at the time.

-Good

[goodnight]

I feel like we should all talk a little more, nothing much seems to have happened over the last page or two.

I also feel like I begin to see where Bulba is coming from on Ald.

And then again I want to reread Landmind.

Tasks ahoy.

-Good

[goodnight]

Yeahhhh I now have no read at all on Landmind, sooo thanks for confusing the shit out of me I guess?

Vote: Ald

Probably a better place for that.

I need to reread this game againnnnn

-Good

[goodnight]

I have Landmind as my strongest scumread. Other than that, I can't really say. I was confident in DGB scum, and Ald's comment at the end of the day seemed very town to me.

I'd prefer a Landmind lynch if anything. Other than that, I'm going to rely on my other head read-wise while I try to reorient myself.

-Night

[goodnight]

Like I said at the end of yesterday, I'm still pretty uncertain of Landmind. I still find eagle and PI scummy. I still find Jake and notsci towny. It appears our heads have switched sides on Ald.

So my three-man team at the moment is {eagle, PI, Ald}.

-Good

[goodnight]

If your accusations are more than just baseless I suggest you share them with the class.

But perhaps if you were actually reading our posts you would realize we've been having some discussions about you.

-Good

[goodnight]

I'm working on writing up a case. Right now I'm going to bed though.

-Good

[goodnight]

I'd prefer a Landmind lynch. Just so ya know.

-Night

[goodnight]

I'm still working on the case. Selling it to Bulba is hard.

-Good

[goodnight]

If you think this is bad, you should look at Shadows and Lights. Now that was bad. I think that one took me like a month plus.

-Good

[goodnight]

Yeah, how dare a Town Alduskkel be upset with the activity levels of this game.

Oddly, being upset at activity levels isn't the towntell you think it is.
Do go on with your less-than-subtleties, though.

I'm wishing right now that Morph and Goodnight would move the game along so I can have a little confirmation for my speculation.

It's nice that they've acknowledged how slow they're being but it'd be nicer if they actually stopped doing that to boot.

I just got a new job, I'm still trying to figure out how not to be exhausted at the end of the day. But I am trying.

morph you need to inject some life into this game.

Right now I'm a bit worried that we're all off base because no one's panicking too much so that sort of implies that scum are content with the state of the game.

Well no shit the Scum are content with the state of the game. Isn't this LyLo?

-Good

[goodnight]

It's about time. I've been wanting to lynch Landmind-scum since d1.

Vote Landmind

[goodnight]

-Night

[goodnight]

Ald, the only reason I didn't vote Landmind at the beginning of the day was because I was waiting for the go ahead from Morph. Given their townread of NS, and this head's townread of you, I'm feeling even more confident in this vote.

-Night

[goodnight]

Should we unvote as well? I'm pretty confident we're on scum.

-Night

[goodnight]

Okay.

Unvote

NS should probably unvote as well. Just in case.

-Night

[goodnight]

This head is

V/LA until Friday evening EST.

-Good

[goodnight]

Also, is 1043 the number you meant? Because that is a post neither by, about, or mentioning eagle...

-Good

[goodnight]

*nor

-Good

[goodnight]

Vote Landmind

-Night

[goodnight]

Checkmate

-Night

[goodnight]

Lack of deadlines will do that to you.

-Night

[goodnight]

I think the biggest thing in our favour was your neigbourization of notsci. We knew exactly what you were doing and so could work around it in a non-suspicious way.