Mini 1576 - Timeshift Mafia II - Endgame

[Bulbazak]

Vote Jeesh5

Let's get this out of the way.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Jeesh5

Let's get this out of the way.

?

Mollie has a tendency to be paranoid about me, so I figured that we should get it out of the way early.

Why are people voting no lynch?

[Bulbazak]

That we are!

VOTE: Dr pants

Srs vote.

MOLLEH TALK TO MEH VOTE

Why is Dr Pants scum?

hey bulba how would you feel that I think you might be town this game

Highly amused and a little suspicious.

if you thought about it I am sure you would know why but I can answer as to why I think this if you want me to.

A possible answer does spring to mind.

[Bulbazak]

Wanna vote for Metal?

Not at the moment.

And what makes you think Pants isn't scum?

Nothing. But I don't see anything that means he is scum either.

[Bulbazak]

Wanna vote for Metal?

Not at the moment.

Why do you think he's town?

I'm fairly null on him atm.

And what makes you think Pants isn't scum?

Nothing. But I don't see anything that means he is scum either.

You .. don't? *raises eyebrow*

I don't.

[Bulbazak]

If you don't use your vote to explore null reads, what do you use it for?

I'll use my vote as I wish, and I don't want to vote MS.

[Bulbazak]

Oh. And my questions are not RQS. They have a legitimate purpose. Please answer them. I am taking note of who doesn't answer my questions.

PEdit:
@Bulba

Mollie says leave you alone for now...
But I'm dying to ask you a thousand questions about that. >.<

Oh, it's that head asking all the questions. I was getting a little suspicious of you asking questions just for the sake of asking questions.

[Bulbazak]

Oh. And my questions are not RQS. They have a legitimate purpose. Please answer them. I am taking note of who doesn't answer my questions.

PEdit:
@Bulba

Mollie says leave you alone for now...
But I'm dying to ask you a thousand questions about that. >.<

Oh, it's that head asking all the questions. I was getting a little suspicious of you asking questions just for the sake of asking questions.

are you being srs you really can't tell us apart

I'm denser than people think I am. Ffery is still amazed that I can't instantly read her.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Ms Kazekirimara

[Bulbazak]

Bulba - can you give me a post that doesn't scream "I have no clear opinion one or another" - cheers.

Sure. Jeesh is town.

How's that?

[Bulbazak]

And does this mean you believe I'm cop?

Why would you ask this?

Unvote

Vote Ms Kazekirimara

Good vote. No questions?

Not at this time.

[Bulbazak]

Why would you ask this?

I had my reasons.

[Bulbazak]

What town is worried about their own wagon?

It didn't come across as worried to me.

[Bulbazak]

@Jeesh: What are your reads on Kaze and Molla?

[Bulbazak]

bulba placed a naked vote on kazemara at a time when there were active victor/metal pushes.

I didn't like either of those pushes. Why do you think I would?

Also I disagree with your Molla read. This is way more fluffier than typical town Molla.

Unvote

Vote BBMolla

@Dr Pants: Why did you run away from your Jeesh vote when Jeesh/Kaze became front and center? I understand not wanting to get in the fight, but I can't understand avoiding the spotlight altogether.

[Bulbazak]

I'm starting to reconsider Kaze. I keep getting mixed signals on Jeesh. But I can understand your position when you explain it like that.

[Bulbazak]

I just did a reread of your ISO and decided a vote on you is dumb anyway.

Unvote

Still don't like some of your actions. You know the ones.

[Bulbazak]

Voting you?

No, and I'm not going to say anymore on the subject.

pretty sure bulba knows what I am talking about!

I might. Remind me anyway.

I agree with Pie on this. I'm not sure why Bane straight up believed the claim and went for the "VT's shouldn't claim, so you're scum". It ignores the obvious alternative that Ms. Kaze is bluffing, but he seems to be pretty convinced that they aren't. Plus the "if you're town its still good for you to die".... oh man.

there kind of is never a good situ ever where some1 softclaims vt.

I find it interesting that somehow you and bulba manage to never address this point at all.

I found it to be meh and didn't feel like addressing it.

The whole vote BBMolla then quick unvote looks too staged for my liking.

My strategy as scum is to act like I do as town. Staging a vote like that is just not something that would occur to me.

[Bulbazak]

Plus it has the advantage of explaining why you haven't died if you manage to last a few days.

No it doesn't.

Jeesh, if you had 2 vests to hand out, who would you give them to?

[Bulbazak]

Plus it has the advantage of explaining why you haven't died if you manage to last a few days.

No it doesn't.

Jeesh, if you had 2 vests to hand out, who would you give them to?

you ask this as if we would tell you

how any1 could construe this as a town POV is beyond my reasoning to understand human nature as a whole.

I will turn to religion if this thing survives beyond d3.

Step 1: Go read Imaginary Fights.
Step 2: Come back here and humor me.

[Bulbazak]

Also I disagree with your Molla read. This is way more fluffier than typical town Molla.

Seems like this is something you've studied before; links to town and scum molla and a discussion of his fluff levels?

Don't be a smart smurf.

Bulb is scum.

I was telling someone the other day that you're scary at reading me. I guess I was wrong.

So Bulb understands Pants' objectively correct position but throws dirt on both sides of the slapfight anyway. Much logic, very town.

I love how you call my reads at the time throwing dirt.

And why is Anatole town?

we'll prolly end up lynching him before lylo cuz i swear to god if this guy is control of who wins it WILL end badly for town.

Why do you think we should lynch them before Lylo, but not now?

However, one thing I got out of yesterday was that Bane knew that scum got a sample role PM in the first game. While this is true, if checking scum QT's is an uncommon thing in general, then it seems likely that Bane is scum, and was using that info to gain cred.

Or he could have looked at the previous game and looked in the scum QT.

bulba placed a naked vote on kazemara at a time when there were active victor/metal pushes.

I didn't like either of those pushes. Why do you think I would?

Also I disagree with your Molla read. This is way more fluffier than typical town Molla.

Unvote

Vote BBMolla

@Dr Pants: Why did you run away from your Jeesh vote when Jeesh/Kaze became front and center? I understand not wanting to get in the fight, but I can't understand avoiding the spotlight altogether.

Prove it 20/20/20.

Whenever I've played with Molla as town in past games, he always seems to be focused, even if he doesn't post a lot. I didn't get that from this game. He's all over the place, and I don't see him scumhunting. Can you honestly remember a particularly original stance he's made in this game where he's actually given reasons for it?

we want to be helpful

VOTE: bulba

Trust me, that is anything but helpful.

Vote BBMolla

I think I read something in his posts that wasn't there.

@Molla: Why have you been PR fishing all game?

[Bulbazak]

I'll believe that when I see it Kaze. And if it's true, that was a horrible use of a gladiator ability.

[Bulbazak]

This ones new

Let's policy lynch victor

Why are you pushing for a policy lynch instead of trying to scumhunt?

[Bulbazak]

Victor is a scum hunted that falls under policy


I have special policies

How is Victor a policy lynch? You haven't really explained this.

Unless the Mara gladiator was real (sounds like a gambit to me but hey it's novel!) then I'm choosing jeesh ded over Mara ded

I'd go the opposite, actually.

I am NOT iffy on kaze or bulba which I want neither to be scum cos it would be super nice with bulba to be on the same team.

We are on the same team Mollie. I'd just like you to stop trying to lynch me every time we're town together, and I try to reach out to you. I'd like to avoid another Chain of Command, if you don't mind.

Ah hmmmmm let me ask bulbs what he thinks

Mollie is town.

People


Give me thoughts on victors #249



It is his only town post

The rest are likely by scum

How is that post more town than any other post in his ISO?

where are you trying to find town? cos you aren't and neither is kaze or bulba <----these are the similarities that I wish were not true.

Mollie, if you were even paying attention, you'd know that this is not true.

Ok come. Why shouldn't we lynch victor?

You still haven't answered why we should.

If there was someone else to lynch that is not kaze ( or me) who would it be?

You could try Molla.

This is NOT for flailing FYI. This is because you've gotten it into your head that the rest of us HAVE to listen to you or be considered scum. Damn

Pants, that's a horrible reason to lynch someone. Here's a simple question for you: Do you think Jeesh is town? Yes or no? Why or why not?

Unvote

Vote Ms Kazekirimara

[Bulbazak]

Bulba why do you think I'm scum, shoot

I didn't like how you voted no lynch in a game where that would hurt us immediately, as we'd essentially go a whole day/night cycle with no information, essentially wasting the day, and then when you got called out on it and Mollie asked you to vote MS, you did, but made up different reasons for it (Didn't want to make it look like you were buddying Mollie...). I also haven't gotten any sense that you are scumhunting in this game. You just seem to be coasting, and I don't like that at all.

bulba I so wish I could trust you. I really do.

You will. I just hope it's not too late by then.

Yeh mollie is pretty scum jeesh slot is scum



Confirm able role blah blah blah sounds like a friendly neighbor

You

are

scum, aren't you?

[Bulbazak]

So we're lynching a guy because he sarcastically said essentially "great I'm being lynched. Awesome" therefore he is scum?

yes.

its basically one of the most scumtells on this site. only Amished's tell outranks it.

Funny story: First time I saw someone commit an amished tell on this site, they were town. You need something more than him commenting about his wagon before I'll consider joining you.

Bane's opinion on Victor is fake.

How is it fake?

bulba if you ever wonder I am such a bitch in games it is cos of games like these. the levels of retarded are pretty high.

Nah, you're just paranoid, and not without reason sometimes. It just makes it harder to connect with you when we're both town.

its much more town than Jeesh PR claim, which was unnecessary and sounds fake (I checked the wiki and there has never been a recorded instance of a BP vest giver, correct me if im wrong and cant wiki).

Custom roles are a thing, especially in themed games.

bee tee dubs: anyone else hate molla this game? cuz i hate molla this game.

[Bulbazak]

I think InflatablePie is scum

Why?

[Bulbazak]

I'm a little worried about PV. He said he wanted to sort me, but he has yet to engage me on anything.

[Bulbazak]

I'd actually like to hear from House before I decide whether to PL them.

Vote Anatole Kuragin

[Bulbazak]

Why do you think they are scum?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Kcdaspot

Why are you going exclusively after the newbies?

[Bulbazak]

messiah was town.

Your point?

why were you on his scum list bulba?

Probably had to do with me not being as active as they'd expect.

[Bulbazak]

For now, we have some big shoes to fill replacing a scummy winner

It's like a reverse Amished...

to the first: why do you say im picking on the newbs then? that means to me im acting negatively towards them.

Nevermind. I thought that Anatole was new player due to the lack of an avatar.

Unvote

Vote House Targaryen

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba: Mist only saw that MS had won a Scummy. She wasn't very far into the game yet to realize he's not playing well at all here.

MS won a scummy for being town in a game where town won and played incredibly well. Congratulating your predecessor like that feels incredibly fake.

First off I would like to state I have no idea what the fuck Sonic was doing. Nor do I have any idea why he suddenly replaced after hammering. Thanks a lot asshole, I wanted to clean up after people today, however did you know?

is this amished's?

That is an Amished tell, yes.

Uh, who is this Amished person and why is how they specifically play automagically indicative of alignment?

An amished tell is when a player replaces in and immediately condemns their predecessor.

P-edit: How did the mod confirm Jeesh having an action?

[Bulbazak]

But seriously. I'd either like someone to provide some data for the Amished tell being useful, or I'd like it to stop being used as an excuse to vote for us.

"Guys, stop scumreading us for our failed effort to appear town. It's not fair!"

[Bulbazak]

BULBA DON"T YOU ABANDON ME

I decided to check my games before I went to bed. What's up?

[Bulbazak]

She says she's scum-hunting us, but she's yet to actually point out the actual scum-motivation behind our posts, and she had failed to recognize that I've not once on site have used the VT claim, and I would more likely than not, try to keep my role under wraps in the chance that we were to wagoned for whatever reason, and attempt to use my claim to keep our slot from being lynched

Why would a VT claim keep you from being lynched?

[Bulbazak]

Why would a VT claim keep you from being lynched?

Her point was that she, as scum, wouldn't claim VT because she would need maneuverability in case she were getting wagoned, where she would presumably fakeclaim a PR.

Yeah, sure...

[Bulbazak]

PV is town

Why?

[Bulbazak]

That's very generic.

[Bulbazak]

That's very generic.

Peregrine seems to genuinely be looking for scum without being opportunistic, wishy-washy, or using blatant logical fallacies. Basically good, generic town behavior or perfect scum game.

I've seen better from him, and I'm not seeing what I expect to see from PV-town.

Bulbazak - God, you started with a 100% town read from me, then it just started dwindling down when you started accusing/trusting the wrong people. Null leaning Scum

Your thinly veiled OMGUS is noted. Also, who did I accuse or trust that you didn't like. It looks like your reads mostly mesh with mine, so this accusation just doesn't sit well with me and looks more like you trying to sling mud at me and justify a scumread.

Basically, amished tell is shit, get your vote of us.

No.

[Bulbazak]

I'm liking Molla better now.

[Bulbazak]

I'm leaning more towards House T overcompensating poorly for early perceived scum tells than actually exhibiting very scummish behavior. I still think he is probably town.

Hmm...

Unvote

Vote Anatole Kuragin

[Bulbazak]

Also, please answer my question House.

[Bulbazak]

That's supposed to be a vote.

[Bulbazak]

I am not sure if I am still going to stay in this game solo.

Don't leave. You'll make me cry if you leave.

Definitely seeing some manipulation from the Anatole slot. Pants continues to obv. town it up while not thinking.

[Bulbazak]

hesitant on Anatole wagon- some of his posts don't make scum-sense.

Why not? Give examples.

[Bulbazak]

Can we lynch Messiah?

Why?

okay. if you bulba and I had them as scum yesterday why the fuck aren't they lynched yet?

Because nobody else would vote them.

lets do some logical thinking.

what is the worst thing that can happen to scum today? one gets lynched.
what is the next worst thing that can happen to scum? town lynches someone they already submitted as a NK.
this being the case, what is the likely game plan for scum? play middle of the road, nk the biggest townreads, try to mislynch scummy towns.
so, when wagons come up on people like Anatole and Kaze, I'm suspicious because so many people have them as a scum read. It doesn't fit optimal scum play, and you know that any scum team with half a brain would correct their partners for playing in a way that hurts scum.

so you have learned this in the entire nearly 4 months on this site?

okay. like this doesn't even make sense

QFT

[Bulbazak]

anyone not-molla (mollie-Jeesh?) want to explain the anatole wagon? I've had him as a townread for a while now

Why? I haven't been able to get much of a read on him at all.

[Bulbazak]

And Molla is now firmly in my townreads.

[Bulbazak]

He doesn't blatantly spam (bulba)

Someone isn't paying attention and is trying to look useful.

[Bulbazak]

Timeshift delays actions by a night. We won't see night 1 actions until the end of night 2, etc.

[Bulbazak]

Mollie, Pants is town.

[Bulbazak]

Mollie, Pants is town.

I say no.

I think you're wrong. Pants is town who hasn't shifted into thinking about the big picture and looking at intent. He's focusing on surface traits that he thinks are reliable, and he pushes them hard. He really believes what he's saying, and at this point in his evolution as a player, that's a town trait.

what is your read on bane again?

Town.

[Bulbazak]

*guards kneecaps*

[Bulbazak]

Mollie, don't leave me! This is the first time we were both town together, and I didn't have to worry about you going crazy paranoid on me. I don't want to lose that!

[Bulbazak]

Can anyone, anyone at all (including Bane), explain to us why Bane is town?

I liked his reactions to claims on d1. They seem extremely genuine, and I'm not getting scum with an agenda from them.

Bulbazak: I am seriously disturbed by your lack of effort in this game, because in my experience you should actually be wallfighting someone by now regardless of your alignment. What gives?

I don't have super strong scumreads this game, and as a result, there's not much for me to really go after with that kind of fury. Besides, I'm trying to dial it back a bit (although I'm not always successful). I'm trying out the relaxed approach and seeing how it goes. I'll probably end up solving this game through PoE.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, Messiah and Bert, your thoughts on Molla?

Leaning town atm.

[Bulbazak]

Even as shitty as I am, I can see that House Targaryen is obviously town, what does that say about you guys?

That we're not scum doing whatever it is you're doing?

That being said, I really want to vote House now, since I doubt the mod would include a message from the predecessor of the slot. That could possibly compromise the game, and, speaking as a mod myself, that's one thing mods try to avoid.

Unvote

Vote House Targaryen

[Bulbazak]

Why House T over Anatole?

Because I have a stronger scumread, and I'm not buying their tracker story.

@Bulba: any reasons in particular you think he's town?

I like the feel of his most recent posts. That's always the best I can do with Molla.

[Bulbazak]

Can someone explain the PV townread? I'm not seeing him actually trying to figure things out, and I'd be seeing that if he was town.

[Bulbazak]

Does the timeshift mean that N1's death doesn't show up until Night 2 or Day 3?

Yes?

I like the feel of his most recent posts. That's always the best I can do with Molla.

So it's a gut townread?

Pretty much. That's the best I can do with Molla.

Do you inherently disagree with my case on Molla?

Yes. You described a lot of Molla tells in general.

still, don't like Molla buddying up to the Tammy/Bane slot, especially since he called Bane scum D1 and seemed pretty confident.

You don't think reads can change based on who is in a slot?

Does it take them an extra night to get a result? This timeshift is so confusing. I feel like they're either a scum tracker or a town tracker, so the tracker part is *probably* legit.

N1 results will not be given until after n2 is over.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: Can we get a vote count?

[Bulbazak]

You don't think reads can change based on who is in a slot?

except molla posted that vic/bane/you (iirc, not gonna go back and check) were scum D1 and then D2 voted with both of you and didn't mention his change of reads. so yeah, when d2 he ignores you and buddies up to the Bane slot... it kind of seems... I dunno, gross?

I don't see how this doesn't bug anyone else.

That's typical Molla play to me. I normally try to look at why he would make a move, rather than some circumstances surrounding that move. If he's voting a scum read, I don't think he pays that much attention to who else is on the wagon, and I also think he's pretty compulsive at times.

Oh well that's nice. I come back to see we're L-1.
I hate to tell you all this, but we're not scum.
We're Town Tracker. We were also part of the reason deadline got pushed back because we forgot when the deadline was and didn't submit on time.

~xofelf

Ah. Found it.

Fate has decided to make me a Tracker yet again. I curse your teeth, Fate.

House Targaryn didn't do anything Night 1.

I also received a last wish from Metal Sonic: "track jeesh5 as a suggestion."

Make of it what you will. A Doctor's protection and a bowl of beef stew tonight, please.

Hey look! A scum claim. Did anybody else notice the thought process of "Now what did my predecessor claim, and what mess have they gotten me into?"? Wouldn't he already know he was a tracker via role PM? Why would he have to then look back and see what his predecessor claimed?

[Bulbazak]

If it's time shift, Tammy dies Noght 2? Delayed

Where do you get this?

@Tammy: Break things down for me. What happened?

[Bulbazak]

also we didn't send in a night action cos I am permanently v/la on the weekends which I told tricks so I thought he would have sent it in but he had graduation so mebbe he was busy with that. unless he sent it from his main but I would think he would have told me.

[Bulbazak]

Molla, think this through. I want to wait until Studio gets here, but consider my vote on Tammy.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I'll spell it out:

1.) Why in the world would Bane be the NK target n1?
2.) Why would Mollie give a vest to Bane, who she happened to be scumreading?

[Bulbazak]

That only begs the question of why scum tried to kill Bane, because I'm assuming the instant vest blocked the n1 kill.

[Bulbazak]

Vote PeregrineV

[Bulbazak]

@Molla: I'm not voting Pie, tyvm. I still have a townread on him.

a bane kill n1 makes sense. since the timeshift mechanic means scum in theory would target people who wouldn't get lynched in the day (which would negate a nk they had previously set up), and Bane fit that description. I also don't recall Jeesh scum reading Bane.

I recall several scumreads of Bane, actually. It might have just been scum PR fishing.

The fact that Studio claims the vest was given instantaneously suggests that timeshift was removed last night.

Studio has claimed that their vests go out instantly and ignore timeshift.

[Bulbazak]

@Molla: I'm not voting Pie, tyvm. I still have a townread on him.

Why

I like what he's posted so far, and it does not look at all like the scum Pie I played with in Shadows and Light. I see an actual interest in trying to figure things out.

what was your read on messiah complex, remind me?

They were slipping in the null area of my reads. I actually forgot they were playing a couple of times.

[Bulbazak]

I'm going to say no on both. You can help me on PV, though.

[Bulbazak]

Why were you willing to vote me at the beginning of day?

Because Mollie didn't submit an action n1, which meant you couldn't have received a vest, since, even if Studio did send one, it would not get to you until the end of n3. I was unaware that their ability was instantaneous.

Oh real quick before I pass out. I don't think I was the night one shot? I don't think? I mean I'm not sure how this time shift thing works, but it said I got the vest last night and I was shot last night. So, yeah I guess I don't actually know due to time shift?

But yeah.

Time shift essentially just shifts the resolution of all the previous night's actions to the next night. You being shot n2 means your slot was targeted n1.

You do an action and depending on what your pm says, it may or may not happen that night or the next night. What does that have anything to do with scum when there are obviously town players with both types of actions?

Unvote

Vote Anatole Kuragin

[Bulbazak]

It's the second sentence that's the scummy one.

[Bulbazak]

There's an awful lot of buddying going on there.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba will say you're distancing now

I'm actually not sure how to take Anatole's posts.

[Bulbazak]

It's an odd pattern I've noticed from Anatole, like when she called House obv. town yesterday when they were being ran up. She has a habit of calling players under suspicion obv. town while not adding much to the conversation.

[Bulbazak]

Because you calling them obv. town when they were not, especially when you had hardly commented on them, set off a lot of red flags.

[Bulbazak]

@Pants: Why would Tammy be a scumread?

[Bulbazak]

@Pie: Do you want to join me on Anatole?

[Bulbazak]

@Pants: Why would Tammy be a scumread?

I had bane as a scum read, here's where:

I'm curious about you're stance on Bane. I've been wary about them because they're doing a couple of odd things. Firstly, for all the talk about "claiming VT is terrible because scum wont lynch you" its curious that Bane took all the VT claims as serious, and made sure to point them out as "bad town" play when they happened. It ignores the very real possibility of town PR's claiming VT to deliberately avoid getting killed. I also think its interesting that despite going though all of this "pro town" play, bane was very passive when it came to scum hunting. He had no problem going hard after people for making poor town plays, and called out several wagons he disagreed with. So why didn't he promote an alternative wagon? I think Bane is scum.

Tammy was then a scum read of course as she replaced into that slot. Given that the night action stuff looks to be true barring any other evidence, I've opted to put aside my read and move Tammy to town.

And Tammy's posts yesterday did nothing to affect this read?

[Bulbazak]

I forgot PV was in this game

Exactly. That's a pretty big red flag.

That is not an inaccurate assessment of Bulba's scum game; the problem is it also describes his town game which has left me feeling dazed and confused here.

-Ceph

Well, I also knew that you were scum, had you by the balls, and was mad that no one was listening to me and were wagoning me instead. At least the SK was paying attention.

[Bulbazak]

could you give me a tl;dr on why you think Anatole is scum?

I got the sense that she was mainly coasting. I haven't seen any real scumhunting from her, just her calling a bunch of people town. I also thought that her defense of the House slot looked an awful lot like WKing.

As for Pants, I think he is just newb town, and I have a very strong townread on him based on previous experiences with him.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think about PV?

[Bulbazak]

I forgot PV was in this game

Exactly. That's a pretty big red flag.

Even when it's PV though? I usually forget he is in games.

PV's activity is always abysmal, but at least when he's town he intently scumhunts and makes an impression on me. I'm not getting that this game.

[Bulbazak]

But if they were PR hunting, why didn't they shoot the claimed PR?

[Bulbazak]

Well, I also knew that you were scum, had you by the balls, and was mad that no one was listening to me and were wagoning me instead. At least the SK was paying attention.

If ETL was an SK, then what if ETL shot someone and it didn't go through? I know that ETL has no incentive to talk to me, so Beastcharizard is definitely the safe choice, but that's one tempting part. If SK or killing role, there probably was some kill prevention that happened last night.

I think you have the wrong game.

I could go for a Mara lynch if nobody wants to lynch Anatole.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba why do you think there is an SK?

I never said anything about an SK.

Bulba I think?

That might explain this:

Bulba why do you think I'm scum, shoot

I didn't like how you voted no lynch in a game where that would hurt us immediately, as we'd essentially go a whole day/night cycle with no information, essentially wasting the day, and then when you got called out on it and Mollie asked you to vote MS, you did, but made up different reasons for it (Didn't want to make it look like you were buddying Mollie...). I also haven't gotten any sense that you are scumhunting in this game. You just seem to be coasting, and I don't like that at all.

I'm liking Molla better now.

And I'm sure nothing happened in those 200 posts to change my mind.

[Bulbazak]

Studio, check out Playing Card Mafia. That's what a scum Desp bussing a scum Bulba looks like, not the limp wristed crap Desp was pulling in this game.

[Bulbazak]

Counterpoint without looking: Desp didn't do a single thing in this game that wasn't limp wristed. Should I thus assume he didn't bus anyone?

I can't say whether he was doing any distancing or not, but I don't think he was bussing anyone.

well it's a good person to lynch, to be fair

Wrong, he's a horrible person to lynch. I would be shocked if he flipped scum.

@Mod: I will be V/LA until July 7. I have family coming over (which I'm not really looking forward to), and a majority of my time is going to be devoted to entertaining them. Plus, this is the July 4 weekend, so I don't know how often I will be available.

[Bulbazak]

Why the townread on Pie?

He was strongly scumhunting, and I've seen scum Pie in Shadows and Lights, and this isn't it.

[Bulbazak]

My Molla townread is strengthened due to the Pie flip. If scum were bussing, it's either Anatole or PV. Anatole, for the double vote, which looks more like show than anything else. PV, because his play in this game, IIoA included, doesn't seem the same as other games I've played with him as town. The scumhunting is not the same and is more mechanical. I don't really think he's scum with MC/Pie, but he could be a SK. Mara's lack of scumhunting is also concerning.

@Anatole: Why are you so concerned about voting Mara?

@Mara: Are you going to do anything else this game?

[Bulbazak]

What is a double vote, bulba?

You voted Pie and then voted him again a few pages later.

[Bulbazak]

My Molla townread is strengthened due to the Pie flip. If scum were bussing, it's either Anatole or PV. Anatole, for the double vote, which looks more like show than anything else. PV, because his play in this game, IIoA included, doesn't seem the same as other games I've played with him as town. The scumhunting is not the same and is more mechanical. I don't really think he's scum with MC/Pie, but he could be a SK. Mara's lack of scumhunting is also concerning.

@Anatole: Why are you so concerned about voting Mara?

@Mara: Are you going to do anything else this game?

Just curious what other people have to say. Am I buddying again?

No. I just find that amount of caution curious.

[Bulbazak]

What is a double vote, bulba?

You voted Pie and then voted him again a few pages later.

Nevermind. I'm stupid.

[Bulbazak]

I'm actually leaning back toward Anatole after his effort to try to dismiss my reads and then claiming to be carrying the town. He's about in the right place on the Pie wagon for bussing scum as well.

[Bulbazak]

I'm actually leaning back toward Anatole after his effort to try to dismiss my reads and then claiming to be carrying the town. He's about in the right place on the Pie wagon for bussing scum as well.

Remember your read on pie?

One bad read does not equal all reads are bad. I just need to be right once, not to mention that my other townreads are pretty on the ball.

[Bulbazak]

should we mass claim?

No.

2 + 1 explains lack of two kills last night

There are other explanations, including one kill being Pie, which didn't happen because of Timeshift.

P-edit: why would there be 1S vest giver plus another protectve role

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Scum could think there was one.

I'm going to be starting D&D in a little bit, but I do want to look over yesterday's twilight and see who didn't post. There's likely scum there.

[Bulbazak]

should we mass claim?

No.

I really don't see a downside to a massclaim at this point and a potential upside. Why don't you want to? Like we have no idea who scum killed last night so who will be killed tonight. Anyone who had any actions completed them last night, the mafia roleblocker has already been lynched and we could better evaluate the setup. If it's not mafia plus serial killer, we have one mafia left to find, and the information could help us take care of that today. That's a good thing.

The problem is that night actions in this game aren't as black and white as others, and there are multiple reasons why a kill might have failed last night, the target being lynched d3 being one of them. To massclaim now on the assumption that an action during the night stopped the kill is ignorance and a horrible idea that will cause more trouble than it's worth.

but like SK will just lie and say VT if one exists, so nvm idk

i guess if there's really a town vig therell be a claim, i guess?

I guess it depends on how ballsy the SK is. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to claim vig, especially since I would think a vig would claim a scum kill.

Now that UPAGT is over, was my play that game relevent to you having a townread on me here?

No.

[Bulbazak]

Although after playing scum with you, I'm thinking of just making a BBMolla version of the Wheel of Morality to decide how I read you in future games.

"Wheel of Mollality, turn turn turn..."

[Bulbazak]

Messiah Complex did not shoot himself, and if it's a vig, they have no reason not to claim that shot.

Exactly. So why wouldn't they have claimed yesterday?

It gives us more information on the setup that way. I didn't say anything about a missing kill last night, but Bulba jumping to that makes me think if there is a serial killer then he's probably it and something happened to his shot.

The massclaim discussion stemmed from a lot of discussion about the missing NK and figuring out what happened. I didn't think it was a good idea to delve into such matters when there were multiple explanations.

There was only one death last night, which means either the vig is one-shot or something happened to their kill or they're a sk with an errant shot.

Why don't you think mafia could have shot Pants?

@Anatole: Why would I know that my action failed when it hasn't even gone through yet?

I am slightly skeptical about there being a town jailkeeper

I am too.

Mara has better posting now, but is it because your on the chopping block, or your sense of civic pride kicked in? It's actually the short list between you and Bulba, but I'd add Bert too at this point.

You're kidding, right?

Bulba you're PoE scum and your not helping your own case very much by not saying much.

I'm absent everywhere else on site due to RL issues and suffering from massive burnout. Activity is not indicative of my alignment.

You can help me out by explaining your reads on Mara and Bert.

Mara is mainly a holdout from d1, but it's remained steady due to the lack of scumhunting and content. It's essentially down to PoE atm, and she lands in the list of 3. As for Bert, it's a meta read, and a pretty strong one at that. I also think that him being on the Pie wagon early points heavily to him not being scum with Pie.

It's why I wanted a massclaim. If someone claimed vig (especially a suspect) then that person could be removed from who I need to look at. I considered the possibility of Bulbazack being a vig if there was one and as he's someone that I don't feel confident on as town, if he did claim vig, he probably is it.

Why is there a willingness here to trust any vig claim?

Also, since it seems everyone ignored my wishes to avoid a massclaim, and I need to claim to lynch Anatole-scum, I am the doctor. I crumbed to Mollie d1, although I don't think she got it and took advantage of what I was offering:

Jeesh, if you had 2 vests to hand out, who would you give them to?

Plus it has the advantage of explaining why you haven't died if you manage to last a few days.

No it doesn't.

Jeesh, if you had 2 vests to hand out, who would you give them to?

you ask this as if we would tell you

how any1 could construe this as a town POV is beyond my reasoning to understand human nature as a whole.

I will turn to religion if this thing survives beyond d3.

Step 1: Go read Imaginary Fights.
Step 2: Come back here and humor me.

I was offering for her to use me as a daily second vest, although I was greedily hoping that she'd give one to me so that I could survive longer. I protected the Jeesh slot (Studio) n1 and n2, and I protected Tammy n3.

Vote Anatole Kuragin

Me thinks she knew there was another protective role running around and she claimed the one from the last game to look more authentic and to draw me out.

[Bulbazak]

If Bulba is claiming Doctor he's probably scum, yeah.

I play pretty conservatively when it comes to fakeclaims as scum and don't go out on a limb unless I know I can get away with it. Why then, would I put myself in jeopardy and fakeclaim doctor against a claimed JK when I'd have no one to back me up?

I didn't read or play in the first timeshift game. Nor do I believe that because a mod made a setup before that it's going to be the same exact set up.

This is actually a pretty strong case for Anatole-scum, because I don't think the mod would copy most of the setup from the first one.

[Bulbazak]

@Anatole: Because Doc + 1-shot Vest Giver are about the max to expect in regards to protective roles (Doc + JK +1-shot BP VG is too much), and it'd make sense that scum knowing their role was blocked by some protective role would look back to the first game to create a fake claim to counter the protective claim that they knew would eventually come. Add onto that how I'm not sure how your list of targets make sense. Were you going for protection or blocking?

[Bulbazak]

I want someone to explain to me why they're reading PV as town.

[Bulbazak]

especially if there is an SK, in which case we only have so many nights unless bulba is hot shit as doctor

which he obviously is not

I really want you to explain to me how Pants was a better protect than Jeesh/Studio or Tammy, both essentially being claimed PRs or conf. town.

speaking of which, isnt it convenient that he picked a role that he knew 100% couldn't be counter-claimed because none of those people were saved or killed

How do you know none of them were saved? And how is it convenient to claim another protective role as scum when the safe and ideal move would have been to claim VT? My claim is essentially a counter to yours, and with no one else to back me up, me claiming that as scum would essentially be suicide.

I jailkept two people who had not claimed and could have easily countered me. it would be a pretty risky/dumb move as scum I think

How would they have countered you? Target #1 was dead scum. Target #2 had already claimed VT. And as for me, target #3, those actions haven't been resolved yet, so there's plenty of reasons why your supposed actions haven't been countered. Add in the fact that you made sure you claimed first (because earlier claims tend to have precedence over later claims), claimed a role that was in the first game (which you'd know, since you've referred back to the original game), and that you made a big show over wanting me to get into the thread, even though a primary glance over my site-wide activity would show me being away.

still, the possibility that he MAY have saved studio doesn't change that Bulba's claim seems pretty convenient, and the fact that he immediately came out voting me with the claim and no case other than "two protective roles" felt weird

This is funny coming from the person who immediately assumed my claim was true, even though there being 3 claimed protective roles should have caused you to be skeptical in the first place and likely vote me. However, it's only now that you're under pressure that you're pointing fingers at my claim and flinging poo in an effort to get the attention off of you? Please.

VOTE: bert

tammy suitably convinced me I was an idiot for voting her

bulba may be lying

still thinking pere, mara, bb are town, and I'm almost certain studio is

bert or bulba should die today. confident at least one of them is scum, maybe both

Again, based on your claim, wouldn't you think that I'd be the one most likely to be lying? Why then are you voting for Bert while simultaneously throwing doubt on my claim?

Lol@Molla, Anatole- not claiming vig, although I will speculate on who I would have shot if I were. Messiah (good shot!), Pie, Mara.

If I were cop, Bulba, Molla, kcadspot/Bert.

If I were doc, Jeesh, Jeesh, Jeesh/Tammy.

Yeah, too late on the doc claim, although accurate on my targets. Also, didn't you claim VT?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazack - why did you protect me night three after protecting studio the first two nights?

Because you became conf. town due to n2 information, and you had a better chance of being useful to the town and more likely to be NK'd. In the case of 2 conf. town players, you protect the strongest one.

[Bulbazak]

Hey deadline is in 4 days and Anatole-scum is at L-3. Can we get some votes over here?

[Bulbazak]

Tammy, why do you think Doctor is less likely than JK? Why don't you think that Anatole simply copied the protective role from the last game as a fakeclaim to draw the actual protective role (me) out? Do you really think I'm that stupid and gutsy of a scum player to CC a PR claim as solo scum, when the ideal play would be the lay low and claim VT? Seriously, stop being stupid and vote Anatole-scum already.

[Bulbazak]

Inflatable Pie putting BBmolla in the "nullscummy" pile makes me lean molla scum because that's just how scum tend to categorize their scum buddies.

What about when he hard pushed Molla d2 and d3?

Also, has anyone else played with singer? I rarely have but I didn't get the impression she was a self-town declarer especially for no reason. Does anyone know if that is her style?

I played with her in Scummies Invitational and Newbie 1500. She lurked a lot more as scum in Invitational, while in the Newbie game that she replaced in, she obv. towned it up. I'm not sure if I have enough for a baseline of her play, though, as I got the feeling that the invitational game might have been an outlier, and I haven't seen a lot of her as town.

Sure, I'll trust myself from earlier in this game, Bulba is scum

I would think you'd know better about how I think as scum after the UPick.

I still don't think the town is stacked if bulba is telling the truth, and studio is still almost certainly town.

See, here's another reason why I think Anatole is scum: the absolute confidence that my claim is real. If he was really a JK, he should be incredibly suspicious about my role, especially with the confirmation of Studio's vest giver role. Yet he's not, unless I'm putting pressure on him, and then my role is incredibly suspicious.

[Bulbazak]

IMO, let Doc/JK live tonight, Doc protect JK, JK jail someone scummy. BP insta vest Doc if able.

I'm not protecting scum. Although if you guys don't want to lynch it, we could always lynch other claimed scum.

Unvote

Vote PeregrineV

If he was really 1-shot vig, he'd have claimed that kill d3.

[Bulbazak]

Molla, don't be stupid. We have 2 conf. scum and a clear path to a win. Anatole is scum, because there's no way there's both a JK and a doc in this game. I'll 1v1 her on this. Also, the way she's treated my claim is super scummy. Then we have PV, who just claimed 1-shot vig under pressure. However, if that was true, why didn't he claim d3 after it was shown the Messiah kill went through? Heck, why didn't he claim during massclaim? There was no reason to hide it on either occasion. Look at it from what should have been his perspective if 1-shot vig. He has proof that he's town. There's proof that Tammy is town, and by extension, Studio. That's a solid 3 person town block and enough to start destroying the scum team via PoE, especially considering the timeshift mechanic. Him claiming would have been the best course of action. Instead, he holds onto that information and doesn't let it out until a lot of pressure comes his way, and it looks like everyone is okay with his lynch. Why? What's the town motivation? The answer is that there is none, but there is a lot of motivation via survivalism if he's a SK. Anatole is final mafia. PV is SK. Game solved. Let's lynch them and go home.

[Bulbazak]

Okay Studio, I'll lynch mafia over SK if that's what you want, even though either lynch would eliminate a future NK.

Unvote

Vote Anatole Kuragin

Spoiler: Anatole's ever changing response to my claim.

First he starts out with absolutely believing it, which is strange, since the existance of a JK, 1-shot BP Vest Giver, AND a doc should be making him raise eyebrows. This is a scum response, since he knows that he's scum, that there's likely a protective role, and that means I'm telling the truth:

there is an SK and probably 3 mafia. so no, it doesn't.

look how badly scum won last timeshift with the same setup, wouldn't be remotely surprised if there was a jailkeeper AND a doctor, and I've already said I expected there to be another PR. the game would be unbalanced without it

I think bulba could be telling the truth

I highly doubt scum have a doctor

or that bulba would even claim doctor if he was a scum doctor anyways

I start putting a lot of pressure on him, so Anatole enters into the discrediting phase:

especially if there is an SK, in which case we only have so many nights unless bulba is hot shit as doctor

which he obviously is not

because he hasn't saved anyone?

I exert more pressure, and he starts to get votes. All of a sudden, my claim is suspect:

speaking of which, isnt it convenient that he picked a role that he knew 100% couldn't be counter-claimed because none of those people were saved or killed

I jailkept two people who had not claimed and could have easily countered me. it would be a pretty risky/dumb move as scum I think

still, the possibility that he MAY have saved studio doesn't change that Bulba's claim seems pretty convenient, and the fact that he immediately came out voting me with the claim and no case other than "two protective roles" felt weird

since he would have looked at the nightkills before claiming that anyways

maybe two, if bulba is telling the truth

if there is only one scum left, jailkeeper + vest + doc does seem op

VOTE: bert

tammy suitably convinced me I was an idiot for voting her

bulba may be lying

still thinking pere, mara, bb are town, and I'm almost certain studio is

bert or bulba should die today. confident at least one of them is scum, maybe both

This next one is a weird backpedal where Anatole tries to keep both opinions in play at the same time. Cognitive dissonance anyone?:

bulb you are tunnelvisioned right now and reaching

your first points about your merit as a doc have been addressed if you read the thread

Obviously someone is lying, and you have been less of a townread than any other player still alive aside from bert all game, and your claim was convenient so it makes sense it could be you. I also pointed out that it makes sense to have a doc. why can't it make sense and still be an opportunistic, potentially false claim?

I WANT to believe your claim is true, and accepted it pretty quickly. if tammy is town it makes you less likely to be, though

didn't realize bb had claimed when I did

and why would I look for your other site activity or even give a shit? I just wanted some more eyes on the game

So my claim is both convenient and scummy, yet it still makes sense and is likely true? The crap?

And then we're back to believing the claim:

I still don't think the town is stacked if bulba is telling the truth, and studio is still almost certainly town.

More backpedaling:

I said "I still don't think the town is stacked if bulba is telling the truth"

In what realm of the multiverse does that translate into absolute confidence?

More evidence that Anatole believes (knows) that my claim is true and also knows what would happen if he tried to 1v1 me. Therefore, he does everything possible to try to make sure I'm not lynched. He's probably saving me for Lylo, when the playing field is more even for a 1v1:

It's probably a bad idea to lynch Bulba because there is a decent chance he is doctor. I would vote for Peregrin though. He has been a town read for me all game but I sorta made my mind up on that before the possibility of an SK too.

More trying to spread doubt about my claim:

Bulba being scum hunting scum would make a lot of sense for how he's gone after pere, who is the most likely SK if there was one, and trying to lynch me as a protective role.

What if Bulba is mafia or sk with rolecop/tracker/watcher? He has been weirdly going after me for shitty reasons all game, but I would think if he knew I was a PR he would have just night killed me. Maybe I looked like an easy lynch?

I'm not down with a policy lynch

Also notice how Anatole says how PV is likely the SK, but yet he is still a policy lynch. The crap?

[Bulbazak]

What do you expect when you claim scum?

P-edit: Don't you dare try to discredit me! I have you dead to rights!

[Bulbazak]

dude, your entire case is predicated on the fact that I am not 100% sure that you are telling the truth or lying.

do you automatically believe or disbelieve every single claim with 100% certainty?

I have consistently held the same opinion all day:

bulba may or may not be telling the truth, if there is an SK it's more likely he is telling the truth, or that a doctor role is also in the game. regardless of this he acts fishy. I have said as much since the beginning of the round

i don't even know what 1v1 you means unless you're talking about dota

But it's not the case that you don't believe with 100% certainty. It's that the amount you believe in my role is directly related to the amount of pressure I exert on you. In the beginning, you believed in my role with absolute confidence. Then I started pressuring you, and you started discrediting me with the "Well, he hasn't protected anyone.", which is a low blow. If you're going to doubt the validity of the claim, you look at who I chose to target, not whether or not I protected anyone. You'd have to argue that Studio's slot and Tammy were not good protect targets on any of those nights. But you're not doing that. You're resorting to mudslinging because I failed to anticipate targets outside of obv. or conf. town. Then when votes started piling on you, it is only then that you started calling my claim convenient. Your stances are like sand and shift according to your needs and what you need them to be in order to survive.

P-edit: I'm good with either an Anatole or PV lynch, since both are scum. I'm not going to consider anyone else.

[Bulbazak]

It's more like, the more you tunnel me, the more it strengthens your already scumminess-laden game.

So OMGUS. Good to know.

Look at your votes all game, look at your comments on pie.

Yes, I was voting my scumspects, who I talked about repeatedly, and I was against voting a strong town read. That actually sounds like town play to me.

and the point isn't that you're a bad doctor, the point is, your lack of confirmable saves makes it an easy claim if you were lying. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but the point is, if any of us were going to make a fake doctor claim, those are the exact people any body would list.

And the point you keep skipping is why I would make such a claim, which is essentially a CC claim, forcing myself to 1v1 you if I was the last scum. It doesn't make sense. If you'd do any sort of meta on me, you'd see that I am a very cautious scum player and do not fake claim anything beyond VT unless I know I can pull it off without danger. I'm not very creative in the fake claim department. Heck, PV should know that, because I had a golden opportunity in the Marvel mini with my Thor fake claim, and I didn't take it, claiming VT instead. And this isn't an aspect of meta I would readily mess with, as it reflects what I believe ideal scumplay is, and how I believe scum should play to win games. Suffice it to say, fakeclaimg doctor as last scum to CC the JK is a bad move, and there's no way I'd ever do that as scum.

So I'm provably telling the truth, which means that you're lying. I'm CCing you, which means I'm willing to 1v1 you right here, right now. Come on scum, call me on it and see if I'm bluffing.

[Bulbazak]

1v1: I'm limiting the options between me and you. If one of us flips town, the other gets lynched the next day. I'm that confident that you're scum.

CC: Counter Claim. Essentially I don't think there are 3 protective roles in this game, and since I have a town read on Studio, and I know that I'm town, that leaves you as scum. My doctor claim is essentially a counter to your JK claim. This has to do with that 1v1 mentioned above.

[Bulbazak]

bulba, why do you think you are the only person in this game who finds it completely unthinkable that there is both a JK and a doctor?

Why are you so certain that there must be? Why were you so quick to accept my claim when simple setup spec would tell you that 3 town protective roles is highly improbable?

and if we are both town, we just fucked the game for the other people.

do you see why I am not reckless enough to say with 100% certainty that you are scum?

This is a scum claim, btw.

[Bulbazak]

Explain what?

[Bulbazak]

Bert, switch to Anatole.

[Bulbazak]

how is that a scum claim?

You don't want to 1v1, because you know you'll lose. This is inside information (you know that I'm town and telling the truth.). This makes the move survivalistic, ergo scum.

[Bulbazak]

Bert, PV is still SK.

[Bulbazak]

no lynch is the logical move here imo

Seriously, why aren't we lynching this?

[Bulbazak]

Tammy, vote Anatole.

P-edit: Or if you think you can get the support, vote PV.

[Bulbazak]

Anatole is at L-2. PV is at L-4. However, I think Bert and I are willing to switch if 2 more people vote PV.

[Bulbazak]

If we lose this one, I just want to point out that we had them both in our sights but let them get away.

[Bulbazak]

I just want to point out that Anatole started d4 discrediting my reads, and now he's ending d4 discrediting my reads. We lynch him or PV tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

I protected Tammy again.

Vote Anatole Kuragin

[Bulbazak]

Why Tammy?

Because she is not only conf. town, but also more likely than Studio to get scum lynched.

[Bulbazak]

without an SK, you and studio are both conf-town, and I figured bulba would doc studio, didn't want to block bulba if he really was doctor, which I knew we would get an answer on today

Me thinks this points to Anatole not killing Studio and having his kill blocked by me.

[Bulbazak]

PV is basically as conftown as tammy after last night, why would you think otherwise?

Nope, nope, and nope. With the timeshift mechanic muddling things up, plus my role, there's no way we can easily write off the existance of a SK, and if it does exist, it HAS to be PV.

Targeted pie, molla, and bulba. Feel free to confirm/deny if you've had your shit blocked, bb and bulba.

Pie was kept n1 (n2 resolved-Messiah dead n2))

Molla was kept n2 (n3 resolved- Pie dead d3)

Bulba was kept n3 (n4 resolved)

Tammy was kept n4 (will resolve n5)

Kind of in a hurry because of work, but doesn't this clear Molla & Bulba, as in they could not have done the kills those nights?

How does Pie dying d3 clear Molla? It's like you somehow know Pie was supposed to die n3, and are using that inside information to appear town and clear a player (who is more than likely town). This is the same type of slip as Anatole saying I hadn't protected anyone, when there was only 1 kill n3, compared to n2's 2 kills.

You and Bulba have tunneled me for what I see as pretty weak reasoning, a) you don't believe my claim, or b) I am indecisive.

Yes, because saying that there is no way there are 3 town protective roles and that your role was ripped straight from the first game is such weak reasoning.

bulba's tunnels ARE ridiculous.

The more you discredit me, the more I know I'm right on the money.

[Bulbazak]

PV is basically as conftown as tammy after last night, why would you think otherwise?

Nope, nope, and nope. With the timeshift mechanic muddling things up, plus my role, there's no way we can easily write off the existance of a SK, and if it does exist, it HAS to be PV.

Since this makes absolutely no sense, please elaborate.

The Timeshift mechanic makes it so that the actions performed on one night are carried out on the next. Therefore, it is entirely possible that a lynch could disrupt night actions, or in this case kills. Let's say, for example, that the SK tried to kill Pie on n2, when that action would be peformed on n3, it would fail, as Pie was already dead. Now add onto that the existance of my role, doctor. This means that on top of Timeshift potentially hiding kill targets, I could also be blocking them. Therefore, I don't think there's enough information with 2 plausible methods of stopping kills to write off the existence of a SK. And if there is a SK in the setup, it has to be you via claim, as there's no way your claim makes sense in any regard (Problem #1: I find it hard to believe that a 1-shot vig would not claim his shot after having killed scum with it. Given that there were 2 additional conf. town revealed that day due to night actions, I can't see how you wouldn't claim the kill and make the group 3 strong, which is strong enough to threaten the remaining scum through PoE. Your actions do not match a town thought process. Problem #2: Let's say for the sake of argument that as town 1-shot vig you did the above. Why then would you not claim during massclaim? You claimed VT, which caused everyone to believe there was a SK, as no vig claimed. As a town 1-shot vig who has already used his slot and nailed scum, there should have been no deterrent to claiming. Instead, you led everyone to assume more scum than there were, which was an anti-town move. You only then claim 1-shot vig when severely pressured. Again, none of that comes from a town mindset.).

Targeted pie, molla, and bulba. Feel free to confirm/deny if you've had your shit blocked, bb and bulba.

Pie was kept n1 (n2 resolved-Messiah dead n2))

Molla was kept n2 (n3 resolved- Pie dead d3)

Bulba was kept n3 (n4 resolved)

Tammy was kept n4 (will resolve n5)

Kind of in a hurry because of work, but doesn't this clear Molla & Bulba, as in they could not have done the kills those nights?

1)

How does Pie dying d3 clear Molla?

2)

It's like you somehow know Pie was supposed to die n3, and are using that inside information to appear town and clear a player (who is more than likely town). 3) This is the same type of slip as Anatole saying I hadn't protected anyone, when there was only 1 kill n3, compared to n2's 2 kills.

1)

I didn't say Pie dying clears Molla. I was pointing out that Pie died day3, so he would not be able to kill n4, but Bert pointed out that Pie being alive night2 means he could have made the Pants nk (happened n3, submitted n2).

2)

Pie was lynched day 3.

3)

What slip? Anatole claims he jailkept you night 3, so the fact that Studio died clears you, unless he's lying about jailkeeping you. If that's the case, then why bother?

1.) You seemed to be implying very heavily that Pie dying cleared Molla. Even if you got confused via the Timeshift mechanic, the assumption that Molla was cleared would have to come from Pie somehow.
2.) And? There's no reason why Pie couldn't have been a kill target n2 (to resolve n3), which would then fail to go through after he was lynched. In fact, if he was a kill target, only 1 person would know it: you.
3.) When Anatole was trying to discredit me, he said that I hadn't protected anyone. However, at the time, we only had 2 nights worth of information. He was right about n2 (where I was protecting the Jeesh slot), but he had no way of knowing that n3, since we only had 1 kill, and there were several possibilities of how a second kill could have been blocked (keep in mind that at this point all evidence pointed to a SK, as you still hadn't

fake

claimed vig).

You and Bulba have tunneled me for what I see as pretty weak reasoning, a) you don't believe my claim, or b) I am indecisive.

Yes, because saying that there is no way there are 3 town protective roles and that your role was ripped straight from the first game is such weak reasoning.

bulba's tunnels ARE ridiculous.

The more you discredit me, the more I know I'm right on the money.

Actually, most of this post makes little to no sense. Start at the beginning and walk through it step by step.

I'm not seeing what doesn't make sense. We have 3 claimed protective PRs in a relatively power light game. Studio has been confirmed via death. That leaves just me and Anatole. There's no way town has that many protective roles, meaning one of them is fake. The fact that I can come to that conclusion, and Anatole cannot is a big red flag. My doctor claim is essentially a counter claim to her JK claim. As I've pointed out multiple times, me fake claiming doctor as single scum and 1v1ing a town JK would be suicidal as scum. You also should notice how Anatole is doing his best not to get in that situation, most likely trying to keep me for a NK or save me until Lylo when the risk is not as great. This also makes a lot of sense if his team's NK was actually blocked n3, thus tipping him off that there was another protective role in the setup. He made sure to claim before me, putting himself in a better position. And if you were scum needing a protective fake claim, where would you turn? If your answer was the previous version of Timeshift Mafia, where the protective role was JK (Anatole's claim), then you are right on the money. All throughout, Anatole has made it more of a point to discredit me and my case, calling it weak and ridiculous, because he knows I'm right, and that if others see it, it's game over.

As far as the first quote - there is evidence - he has been very very sure about two players this game. One is me, and the other is inflatable pie. I know with 100% certainty that he is wrong on both counts, and you know that he was on Pie. That's not a good record.

I've been very sure about a lot of players in this game. I had strong town reads on Mollie (later Studio), Bert when he replaced in, and then Tammy when she replaced in. I also had relatively strong scum reads on Mala and PV. My read on you was weak by comparison and was based on your posting record and lack of stances. As town, you should have been coming at me from 1 of 2 directions after the Pie lynch: 1.) scum due to my defending him so hard OR 2.) Maybe the Pie flip would have shaken my reads to the core, causing me to reevaluate them. You could then interact with me to try to see if that was the case. Instead of doing either of those 2, you decided to go on the offensive and preempted my first post of d4 by calling all my reads bad and that no one should listen to me. Again, you seemed to acknowledge me as town, even though you should have no reason to, hinting at inside information, and your thought process does that match that of town, since it's survivalistic and defensive in nature, rather than seeking to find scum and understand thought process and motivation.

Since this makes absolutely no sense, please elaborate.

Yes it does! You're not confirmed 1-shot vig! And if you're scum and not a 1-shot Vig/SK, then there's 99% an SK out there! That's really exciting!

You saying I could be scum has no meaning to me, since I'm not. But, walk me through the logic how I could be while shooting my partner.

But if you weren't the SK, then that means that you didn't shoot your partner. Why then did you immediately jump to that and ignore the attempted Bane/Tammy kill?

But if there is one scum left, it's probably one of Anatole or Bulba. But I have townreads on both.

There's more than enough information to solve this game via PoE, and PoE points to one of us. Just vote already.

[Bulbazak]

PV is likely a SK. Let's lynch Mafia first.

[Bulbazak]

Why? The mechanic pushes kills forward one night, so there's always a way they can disappear via lynches.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba

- going to break down your big post later, but you are saying I'm the SK because there was and SK in Timeshift I, and Anatole is scum because there was a Jailkeeper in Timeshift 1 but there isn't one in this game. If you are going to try to argue setup #2 base don setup #1, you can't use it to argue opposite sides of the coin.

You are also trying to argue that somehow, through the miracle of doc and timeshifting but not jailkeeping, that 3 night kills just didn't happen.

1.) I am not using the previous Timeshift to say anything about the SK. In fact, if you look through any of my past arguments, I don't mention the previous game once in connection with the possibility of a SK in this game. I'm saying that the sequence of events leading up to your claim and the thought process behind those events don't make sense coming from town. They do make sense coming from scum, in this case, a SK. And given only 3 nights of information, only 2 of which didn't have an immediate explanation for a lack of second kill (the first one did as it was blocked by Studio), I think it's far too early to write off the existence of a SK, especially when there are explanations that would account for the lack of kills.

2.) I am not saying that Anatole is scum because JK was in the first game. That's a strawman. What I'm saying is that there's no way there are 3 protective roles in this game, and seeing as how Studio was town and proven town d2, that leaves Anatole as scum. And the JK claim is an easy fake claim, simply because it existed in the first game, meaning she didn't have far to go to make up the role.

3.) Please explain to me how you think 3 protective roles exist in a power light game with a mechanic that can actually block kills, and yet, a SK can't exist because we haven't seen said kills? I really want to know how you think 3 protective roles can exist in a setup with a mechanic that can, by itself, block kills makes any kind of sense.

[Bulbazak]

Why? The mechanic pushes kills forward one night, so there's always a way they can disappear via lynches.

Why would they be able to disappear via lynches? I didn't think that would have any affect on the kill if the person performing the kill was still alive when they sent in the action. Isn't it just delayed?

Let's say that on n1 scum kill X. On d2, X is lynched. When n2 rolls around, the kill is unable to be resolved, since its target is already dead. Therefore, at the dawn of d3, it looks like no kill occured.

[Bulbazak]

I usually keep my claims unless they provide more information to the town, or potentially can.

Ok, so you're a 1-shot vig who hit scum, and there is evidence of 2 kills. Town knows that there is either a SK or a vig. Why then would you keep that information to yourself? Your decision does not make sense coming from a town mindset, because you would have purposely chose to keep town in the dark and looking for a SK. Add to the fact that you know how powerful a tool PoE can be, and town having 3 conf. town would have set the odds heavily in favor of a town win. But yet again, you avoid doing so. Your actions don't come across as town motivated, but as scum, because your moves have been motivated by survival only, hence why you claimed when you did.

I think it became obvious that I shot Messiah, so leaving some doubt in scum's mind works for the best.

How was it obvious that you shot Messiah? And if it was obvious, how then could scum have any doubt?

It was obvious there is no SK because no 3 kills night 1, only 1 kill since then.

That's exactly why you could only be a SK if scum, because there were 2 kills and not 3. There are several different ways that a second kill could have been blocked, as I've said before. Plus, if you honestly believe that there are 3 protective roles, you should not be a strong advocate of "no SK because there's only been 1 kill per night".

And despite this simple explanation, my lack of claim AND my eventual claim, there is still SK hunting going on. So, making the assumption that my actions in any way affected town's behavoir in that regard that is some sort of logical fallacy, and using it to argue just makes you look bad.

Your actions did affect the town's behavior. You say you're a 1-shot vig who hit scum n1, yet you didn't claim after that flip, leaving town with very little claimed conf. town. This in turn left town completely in the dark when trying to lynch scum, and being able to eliminate you from the pool early on would have helped with associations. And let's not forget that with an extra kill, we now had to consider the possibility of a SK, a possibility that you refused to take away. You kept town in the dark by choice, which affected how we played. Then, during massclaim, you claimed VT rather than vig. With no vig claim, that left us with only the possibility of a SK left, which affected how we hunted. You only then claim vig when pressured, and now you are wondering why we suspect you? Saying that your actions didn't affect town's behavior is a load of bull.

But if you weren't the SK, then that means that you didn't shoot your partner. Why then did you immediately jump to that and ignore the attempted Bane/Tammy kill?

You lost me here too. Tammy was protected by the BP vest given by Jeesh/Studio. Messiah was not protected from my kill.

My point has always been that you are only scum if there is a SK, i.e. you're the SK. You responded by saying that you couldn't be Mafia, because that would mean that you killed your partner. I then pointed out the dissonance in your logic: That if I thought you had killed Messiah, I wouldn't have considered you to be Mafia. So the question was, why did you ignore the attempted Tammy kill, because that would have been the kill you committed if Mafia? Let's add in the fact that I never said you were Mafia, and that I've always held that you were SK. You essentially took bad logic and tried to disprove a point I never made, which was sort of strawmanning my argument, since I never said you were Mafia.

I claimed VT, SK hunting.
I claimed my vig shot, SK hunting.
Kill pattern shows 1 scumkill a night, SK hunting.

You claimed VT and no one else claimed vig. Of course we were going to SK hunt.
You only claimed vig once pressure started being applied to you. At that point, it was decided that if there was a SK it HAD to be you, and it was because of your actions that the determination was made.
2 claimed protective roles + 1 conf. protective role + timeshift mechanic, all of which you believe. 2 nights of 1 kill is not enough to establish a pattern of no SK existing, especially when there are too many ways that such a kill could have disappeared.

I'd lynch molla over you but you continue to think your play was perfect or obvious when at LEAST one town is quite disappointed and would've preferred to not be misguided. Regardless of if you were trying to confuse scum or not, you also confused town, who had even less information to work with.

I'm just really annoyed with this whole distraction at this point.

Why aren't you voting him? Heck, why aren't you voting anyone?

When you dudes talk about killing him for information, do you mean just confirming that he is a 1-shot vig rather than an SK? We've only gotten one kill except for one night, I don't really see why it's considered likely he would be SK > vig still.

I really don't understand how you, as a jail keeper, continues to so blindly believe that all the claimed roles are real. The only night that a second nightkill is accounted for is night one with me being the mafia kill.

Supposedly you're a jail keeper who's been jail keeping people each night and you are like "there's not a second night kill so there's probably not an sk". Like that makes no blasted sense to me. You are claiming that you believe Bulbazack and he's a doctor. Bulbazack has claimed to heal people each night and you are claiming to jail keep people each night. What makes you think that's not responsible for a missing kill?

And really it doesn't seem weird to you that we have all these power roles running around???

That's why I think Anatole and PV are scum. Anatole is believing everything way too easily, and PV's logic doesn't add up, as he says he believes all the roles, but then argues that there couldn't be a SK, because we've only seen 1 kill for 2 nights, even though all the roles that he believes exists could have stopped that kill (and let's not even get into how his actions don't add up for his claimed role).

[Bulbazak]

Where don't my actions add up, Bulba?

I was referring to PV's actions. The only thing that doesn't line up with you is your thought process.

@PV: You have yet to address my concerns or questions past a "Nuh-uh!" response.

[Bulbazak]

And if it was obvious, how then could scum have any doubt?

What and where did scum doubt?

You said that it was obvious that you shot Messiah, but you didn't claim to WIFOM scum. However, if it was so obvious, how could scum be made to doubt it was you? Those two thoughts don't gel. In fact, the entire explanation doesn't make sense. When asked to explain, you link back to your reasons for shooting Messiah, but at no point do you explain why that made it so obvious that you were the one who shot him. Every single time I try to get clarification, you link back to the post I'm trying to get clarification on.

Your thought processes do not make sense.

Unvote

Vote PeregrineV

Molla, revote. This needs to die today. Singer, you may stop posturing and hammer at any time now.

[Bulbazak]

Actions?

Protected Aegor.

guys i cant tell if Pere was just messing with us in that twilight posting.

Probably not messing, but I don't think that matters.

Have not read any of this game. Will at least skim through it, reading the posts of the live players.

If someone could tell me what is going on and any things I should know, that would be delightful.

We mass claimed after a missing kill. Chances are that it belonged to mafia, so the remaining mafioso knew there was a protective role of some sort running around. Anatole was able to claim before me and Bert, and thus was able to try to draw the protective role (me) out. She claimed JK, which is the protective role that appeared in the previous Timeshift (aka the perfect fakeclaim for the lazy scum). I claimed Doctor, essentially CC her, and called a 1v1. He refused. That was 2 days ago. There is no way that there are 3 protective roles in this game, especially considering there was only 1 other town power, and that was a tracker, and that the mechanic is built in such a way to potentially hide kills. 3 protective roles is overpowered. Anatole's claim doesn't add up in much the same way as PV's didn't. He's scum. We lynch him today and win.

I'll let Singer check in and Bulba come call me scum before I place a vote.

Why is it so important for you to wait to cast a vote?

I dunno, I guess we have theoretically two mislynches so it'd be cool to be smart about it and lynch the confirmed-ish jailkept target first but *shrug*

There's only 1 guaranteed mislynch before Mylo. Let's get this right.

I guarded Molla.

I don't understand, with one scum left, why you haven't jailkept me yet

Not once. Your biggest scumread for the past three game days

Boooooooooooooo

Because he's scum. Vote him.

Vote Anatole Kuragin

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, 1v1s are stupid and I don't see how anyone with a brain sees them as pro-town. It is just something to stroke your fragile ego.

We have one protective role, one pseudo protective role, and one one-shot protective role.

The night kills make sense with my role, you are just oblivious to the game in any regard besides pushing my lynch.

There. Is. No. Way. We. Have. Three. Protective. Roles.

I am so confident in this and that you are scum that I am willing to 1v1 and be lynched if I'm wrong. I was willing to do this 2 days ago. That's how confident I am. If you were a JK, you'd be thinking the same thing, that there is no way there are 3 protective roles and that I must be scum lying. But you're not, and you're way too willing to believe everyone's claims, which points towards a scum mindset of knowing that nobody else is scum with you and you therefore acknowledge their claim to be correct instead of being suspicious when certain things don't add up.

[Bulbazak]

Ok, let's 1v1 but we lynch you first? Sound good?

Where's your vote?

How do you not see how anti-town 1v1s are? You are wrong. If we did this we would lose two townies and the game would be over. And hopefully you would be blacklisted forever for such an egotistical move.

This is not an egotistical move. Heck, I'm not one to 1v1 in general. What I'm saying is that there is no way that there are 3 protective roles in this game, which means that one of our claims is false. As such, the lynch needs to be between us. I'm that confident in you being scum that I am willing to risk my lynch. Compare that to you, who is shaking in his boots.

We also have no idea what the SK could do or what the last mafia role is.

The last mafia role is irrelevant. As for the SK, a look at the last Timeshift Mafia might give us a clue, unless it's as simple as all his kills weren't affected by Timeshift.

You are being blinded by your obsession with the number of protective roles YOU think would be proper.

Okay, let's look at the claimed and conf. power for this game:

Town

Tracker
1-shot BP vest giver
Doctor
JK
6VTs

Scum

Goon
2-shot RB
???

SK

Now obviously one of the town roles under vest giver is fake, but I seriously want someone to explain to me how 3 protective roles is not overloaded when the only other town power role is a tracker. I have some experience with the game review process, and I can say with certainty that there is no way a game would get approval with that ratio (assume 5 VTs in that scenario). The game would have been considered wildly unbalanced, even before you add in the timeshift mechanic, so when I say there is no way there are 3 protective roles in this setup, I'm speaking from experience designing games, and I can say that there is no freaking way that both of our roles exist in this setup. Studio knew that too, which was why he didn't want to budge from you d4. This should have been taken care of then, but town was too busy waffling to realize that we had just solved the game.

If we knew SK or Mafia had strong-man kills would you find it more likely I was telling the truth? We already know they had a roleblocker.

Are you admitting to being a strongman?

I almost 1v1ed a neighborizer in the last game I was in because I was also a neighborizor and didn't believe that there could be two. The problem is that they kept saying I must be scum, too, but didn't push my lynch very hard because a 1v1 would've left them either probably auto lynched knowing I would flip town, or potentially lynched first.

Problem was, as town, I was also afraid of the possibility of out-guessing the mod and potentially fucking town over by now lynching two town by default.

Sad Days were had by all.

See, but there's the difference. You both were a similar role and both behaved in a town manner when you showed suspicion of each other. Anatole has not. In fact, he has taken every role at face value, even though there is a lot of evidence that points to the exact opposite. That's not a town mindset. That's a scum mindset of knowing that he's the last on his team and that everyone is probably what they say.

Bulba, do you find it at all strange you haven't been nightkilled yet considering you haven't protected yourself once?

I figure you've been saving me for Lylo, which is when you're going to break out all the suspicion that you should have broke out 2 days ago.

We're at an even number. Does that mean this day will become a no lynch?

It better not.

Bulba, how sure are you that Anatole is scum - instead of percentages, use an animal of your choice

Burmese python. A great white shark off the coast of New Jersey. The ape committing murders in the Rue Morgue.

Bulb probably by default if it's not molla.

Why don't you think Anatole is scum?

Can we please stop pussyfooting around and make a decision. The way I figure, it's me or molla right now, and molla was supposedly jailkept last night so barring some fucked up scum trying to target him, a no kill will almost guarantee it so we might as well just get me out of the picture.

How is it you or Molla? I want to know how you think there can possibly be 3 protective roles in a power light setup. And if you don't think there can be, then you need to get your vote off of yourself and put it somewhere useful, i.e. on one of me or Anatole.

@Bulb:

Confirm your ability is not timeshifted.

It is not timeshifted. I cannot bypass the mechanic.

[Bulbazak]

It is not timeshifted. I cannot bypass the mechanic.

What do you mean by "cannot bypass the mechanic?"

Timeshifted as a modifier seems to mean that the action happens immediately instead of being delayed. My role is not like that. A protect submitted on n1 would not go into effect until the end of n2.

Because I feel like if it's one of the two it's Bulb which I've already stated so yeah uh huh good luck threatening me into making a decision before I'm ready

You still haven't explained why you don't think Anatole is scum or why you think I'm more likely to be scum between us.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

The quick discredit at the beginning of d4 + the claim really sealed the deal for me. Otherwise, you might have thrown me off.

[Bulbazak]

Now if only Tammy wasn't so waffly, we could have ended this on d5.