Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[Bookitty]

So excited for this game!

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson

He was scum in one of my first games on this site. Clearly he's making a career of it!

[Bookitty]

YOUR play? I almost lynched the COP. :p

[Bookitty]

I need to:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Generic.

Both his avatar and his choice of route is suggestive of organized crime.

[Bookitty]

I see your avatar there, Mirhawk. IGMEOY 2: The Bride of IGMEOY.

[Bookitty]

I'll plead guilty to over-involved, but I'm not jittery. :p

Just really excited about this game.

[Bookitty]

Well, I played here for a long while and then took a long hiatus, from which I have recently returned. I'm currently in four games, including this one. I have no off-site experience.

You could search my username and click on view topics to get a decent overview of the games I was in, I think.

OMGUS is just as likely for town as for scum imo.

I think I know what Salamence is thinking; I'm not sure it's a very strong scumtell, though. I think I see a better one.

VOTE: tn5421

[Bookitty]

I'm not as sure based on the user profile, but I'm willing to see where it goes.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mirhawk

[Bookitty]

That's one question-dodge.

It's not a question dodge. You seem rather keen to make me look bad. Why is that?

It's still there. I haven't forgotten about it. But my one little vote does not an effective wagon make.

[Bookitty]

Okay, look at the number of posts for each of those players. Do you think either scumtell is especially strong, given that information?

I have very minimal meta on Sala and none I can talk about. I have some on Haschel, though, and I don't think he's scum in this game. Haschel is agreeing with Sala. Why would you read my move to a wagon as submission to Sala? I was wagoning, not sheeping, but if I had been, I don't understand why it's especially bad if I was sheeping Sala. Is Sala known as a horrible player?

What does page 2 have to do with it, in your opinion? Neither my vote on tn nor my vote on Mirhawk was RVS. I don't think you thought so, either. So why is page 2 relevant?

[Bookitty]

There is a wagon already on Mirhawk. My tell isn't that much better than theirs, though I do think it's better. Usually it's better to join a wagon that you can somewhat agree with and that is already underway rather than to start a brand new one. IMO, wagons are only effective in eliciting information past a certain tipping point.

For instance, Generic is voting me. He pointed out something scummy he thought I did. He's not pushing that case, though; if he moves to a larger wagon, does that mean he's abandoned all suspicion of me? I would doubt it.

Given that town is likely to have different opinions on things, people on any wagon may or may not be voting their number one top suspicion. Mafia is a game of consensus: agree or disagree?

[Bookitty]

That wasn't why I was voting tn, Mirhawk.

It was the quote I posted when I answered RC.

[Bookitty]

I think that TN comes off worse in this particular set of posts. Mirhawk has a wagon on him; TN does not. Yet TN is coming across as far more defensive/protective than Mirhawk. Maybe they are scum together; however, I don't know that scum would link themselves so closely. Scum protecting town because they think they're earning valuable towncred that they can exchange for goods and services later on? That happens more often in my experience.

[Bookitty]

That doesn't make sense. Are you asserting that anytime a scumtell gets caught, it can't be valid because scum would know it would be caught?

Do you think Mirhawk is scum or town? Why, in either case?

[Bookitty]

Why?

[Bookitty]

I am not very familiar with millers so I wouldn't know what the accepted play is, but it seems to me that claiming miller is pretty much a guaranteed mislynch as town generally can't take the chance that you're scum fakeclaiming, whereas if you keep it to yourself it might never come up basically making you a VT with a bit of a disadvantage. It comes to being either a guaranteed mislynch or a possible one.

As for why I asked if it was a serious question. If I had thought Sal was scum I would have voted him, I did not so I didn't.

Does that sound like a reaction test to you, really?

[Bookitty]

Have you played in a game with a Miller before, Mirhawk?

[Bookitty]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: tn5421

[Bookitty]

I have one more question:

@Mirhawk:

What is your take on tn5421 to this point? Scum, town, null?

[Bookitty]

@Mirhawk:

The case on you is based on lack of experience with millers, in my opinion. I could be wrong on this, but it seems to me that you didn't really know what to do with the miller claim. Is that not accurate?

Also, why are you questioning a vote move off you to someone you regard as null? If you are town, wouldn't that be a positive?

TN was soft-defending you in a way that made me itchy. Now you're doing it to him. Sadly, I have but one vote.

[Bookitty]

H

@bookitty

When did tn softdefend Mirhawk?

In this thread. Seriously, you can look for yourself; I am not doing a quote wall for something that happened one page ago.

For the record, I have not said I had a townread on Sala. I said I had a townread on Haschel.

[Bookitty]

I don't find Haschel all that scummy. I'm voting the person I find to be the scummiest right now.

@Salamence:

Now that the screaming has died down, can you explain briefly in your own words the purpose of your fake-miller-claim gambit? I think I understand it, but I would like to hear it direct from you.

[Bookitty]

Thank you for replacing

[Bookitty]

TN, do you generally subscribe to "Lynch all Liars" as a policy, or is it applied on a case-by-case basis for you?

[Bookitty]

I don't know what the currently accepted meta for miller claims is, but it seems to me there are only four reasonable responses to a serious miller claim:

1. Accept it on faith and lynch it before LYLO to be safe
2. Accept it on faith and don't lynch it
3. Disbelieve it and lynch it before LYLO
4. Disbelieve it and lynch it right away

Since we were still in RVS, I didn't consider it a serious miller claim. I thought Salamence was having fun. His friendly manner in greeting Jake bore that out, as did Sala's assumption that Jake would treat the miller claim in the fourth way I described above. I didn't see it as taunting. I did think it was a gambit, much like Nati's habit of self-voting in every game I can find with him.

The problem with gambits is that they will catch scum and not-scum pretty much alike. Fake-claiming miller might get some players to vote you as in the fourth way. Others may not have a clue what to do with it at all. This is especially true for those with no prior experience of millers or fake-millers in Mafia.

Just because I assumed Sala was having fun in RVS does not mean that it would be read that way by anyone else. I do wonder if Sala had claimed Bulletproof Miller-Ascetic Two-Shot Vig if that would have been read the same way, though. That would have made the joke aspect more clear, but might have prevented the gambit aspect from working as intended. The issue now is that I can't tell if Mirhawk is really scum or is just reacting to a gambit that looked scummy to begin with. I'm leaning toward the latter right now. TN's response about Haschel trying to make him look bad, however, struck me as quite scummy separate from the issue of millers and non-millers and policy lynch jamboree.

I think Generic is town, but I think he uses the jittery thing more than it merits. Without a clear meta on the playstyle of the people you're judging, I don't think it's that useful. Still, I want to look at kthxbye and his interactions more in-depth to see if I've missed something the first go-round.

I'm not sure if I'll get to that tonight or not, but I will get to it soon.

[Bookitty]

What alignment do you like playing as? Be honest, because I'm going to check your answer.

Honestly, I like playing scum when my partners are active and don't get themselves caught D1. On the other hand, I really like playing town PR's as I tend to live a long time due to being scummy enough to not get NK'ed and towny enough to not be lynched. I'm not a fan of VT, but I do make some exceptions to that in themed games.

I have often been accused of using too many words to make my point, but not in the way kthxbye does it in this first paragraph. He's thrown in just about every single excuse possible. Maybe he was nervous about RC checking on him.

Who is more scummy at this point? TN or Mir?

Why are you asking this? Is our choice of lynch already narrowed down to these 2 players?

Yes. Yes, it is. That's exactly why Salamence was asking, because we have no other choice but to lynch one of {tn, Mirhawk}. I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Generic is absolutely right with this:

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so already you were on the back foot. So you cobble together a convoluted answer

I do see something that I don't like, though, that doesn't have to do with kthxbye. Red Coyote, you know that Haschel said he didn't look at the time stamps, as in, he didn't know that tn hadn't read his post yet. That's not the same as saying he hadn't noticed it had only been a short while. They are two different things. Haschel may or may not have looked at the time stamps. He admits he was pressuring TN to respond quickly, so RC's reaction seems odd to me.

Here is something else that I don't like:

@ sal - your replacement would have to convince me that I was wrong about you. YOUR PLAY suggests you are scum.

Jake you're not making sense. You're saying that Sal is def-scum for his move and can't convince you otherwise. You're going to tunnel until one of you is lynched. Thus the slot must be scum.

BUT, if he was replaced then maybe his replacement could convince you the slot isn't scum?

As someone who has replaced into more than my share of games, this logic looks completely artificial to me. Who hasn't thought a slot was scummity-scum-scum and then reevaluated it as town based on a replacement? This reads to me as scum fueling an already burning fire and is a question that isn't really looking for an answer.

Generic is right again when he says Sala was gambiting. I'm going on the record now as saying I don't like gambits much, but I don't think they're solely the province of scum, so I'm reserving judgment based on other things in the game.

I don't at all like Kthxbye's Post 149. I think this has been discussed already though.

Right now I'm watching Red Coyote because I think he's subtly misrepping some things that happened and trying to steer the town. I don't generally think the town needs steering and I don't personally respond very well to that, so it may be a playstyle conflict. Still, there are little things that don't seem exactly accurate the way he tells them. (The Haschel dispute, for instance.)

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team and we'll see how close I was at the end of the game. I'm still suspicious of TN, but he's fourth on the list at this point. I'm sure Generic is town, pretty sure Squirrel Girl is town. Others are still reads in progress.

And since Squirrel Girl asked so nicely:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kthxbye

[Bookitty]

I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Reaction....umm....duh?

What reaction were you expecting? If Sala had said, "We are only lynching these two people today!" in response, what would you have derived from it? If Sala had said, "No, of course not, Mr. kthxbye, please tell me who to lynch," what would you have derived from that?

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team

1 of 3 isn't the worst you could do, but it's certainly not very good by any stretch...

It did make me laugh though, as well as your vote and the 'reasoning' behind it.

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then? I was considering bussing, but RC is my least confident read in that lineup anyway. Anyway, I don't think anyone could have predicted your train wreck of a response, bussing scum OR town.

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

You're each independently scummy; I admit I could be wrong about RC. Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive. You're very quick to engage in OMGUS and to come out swinging at the first hint that anyone would consider you scum. Rather than make a measured defense, you immediately resort to insults and threats.

Inconsistencies found.

Now watch this, I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat while explain why your post is likely coming from a scum mindset over a town mindset.
First, scum will want to push a wagon on town along while not stepping on any toes.
Second, scum are more likely to forget how people are interacting when they form opinions on who the possible scum team members are.

You did both in one post.

Now here's my prediction. If I'm right and NV is the scum on my wagon, you're likely his partner and threw him in your predicted scum team to try and distance without completely bussing him.

I don't think I've exhibited any unwillingness to step on toes in this game. Admittedly, I'm not calling people VIs or suggesting that they are mentally disabled in some way, but I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good. I don't think my expressed suspicions of RC are particularly safe either; however, I have this awesome superpower that lets me win with the town even if I die, so I am not scared of your threats nor particularly committed to my personal survival.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

To those hung up on my wordy answer to RC's question of my preferred roles:

All I said was that I enjoy playing scum and town both depending on the circumstances. I just explained it in more detail. To those on my wagon, if asked the same question (which...I am asking the same question with this), what is your answer?

I prefer Vanilla Town. See, simple.

Next up would be how/why is it more likely that my role is a scum role over a town role when I call someone derp for derp reasoning of their derp vote? Please link me ANY game in which a player you played with in linked game did this very thing which colored your opinion of this action to be more likely coming from scum.

Overexplained and overinvolved explanations to a relatively simple question? Covering all the bases just in case someone does check on your claim? No, I can't say anyone has ever announced how happy they were with their role in the thread before. You should feel special, you're a unique snowflake!

[Bookitty]

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then?

Where was I nervous about RC checking up on me?

Why would you feel the need to explain how you like every single permutation of role in your reply to RC if you weren't nervous? If you were a powerrole, why would you ever say you like your role in your first post? I see you softclaiming, but why would you draw attention to it in your FIRST POST if you really were?

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

I don't, it's an educated guess based on my being town and the wagon being shite.
I'm certain of nothing.
What kind of question is 'why or why not'? Didn't you in the same breath just say something about wasted space and filler? The only way to be fairly certain of alignments is if you have a scum role....or where you looking for me to answer with 'I know RC is town is because I'm scum'?

I was actually looking for you to comment on why or why not you think RC is town or scum. That would give info for later after you or he flips. Why don't you want to answer that?

Like this: "I'm not certain that Generic is town, but his responses and his questions are in line with what I would expect from a townie, so I don't think he's scum."

Why is every question anyone asks you met with panic or "lol"?

I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good.

lol, you give yourself too much credit.

See what I mean? LOL, but you dedicated a whole post to me not stepping on your toes. OMG, it's so LOL.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

There is a difference between overreaction and looking to your wagon for scum when you're town. One is finding the scum voting on the mislynch wagon while the other is using the info and facts at your disposal to find scum.

You also failed to link a post where these actions point to scum alignment over town alignment.

Oddly enough, I'm not compelled to reread every game I ever played to think you're scummy and to vote you. Mafia is weird like that.

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

If people actually answer the above, I might even claim so y'all can see the reasoning behind some of my comments and we can move forward and lynch scum D1.

Yeah, I think Not Voting is probably scum on your wagon. Pretty sure I said that before.

[Bookitty]

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so sleeady you were on the back foot. Do you cobble together a convoluted answer that admits to such but then desperately tries to claw it back with comments that include a vague remark about sometimes living the theme, and hinting at a PR which you even then desperately try to cover over with the crap about vanilla roles.

So instead of a straight forward 'it was actually the flavour it was excited about' you clearly tried to dig yourself out of a hole.

vote kthxbye

Glad you were so excited about my response though, feel free to give a convoluted answer as to why about that too.

......pfft...bwahahahahahahaha!

thanks mate, I haven't laughed like that since I was a little girl.


Jake's play so far reminds me of his town game.

Red always looks town whether he is scum or not sooooo we shall see.

Not Voting's 102 is baaaaaaaad.

Generic went full retard. Everyone knows you should never go full retard.

Though I think Not Voting is probs scum for that weak ass vote, I think I will just sheep Jake today.

VOTE: Sal

Since you asked:

Kthxbye's not taking responsibility for his own vote on Sal nor is he giving any justification for it. He's sheeping Jake even though he thinks Not Voting is probably scum. He insults another player without actually giving any reasons for why he believes Generic is playing poorly. Kthxbye doesn't actually answer any of Generic's points, which are valid; he just LOLs at them and dismisses them. (Yeah, see, you can be overinvolved in one post and then dismissive in the next. Who knew?) He's wishy-washy on RC (read Red above) and sets himself up to go either way on it. He fails to say one thing in that post for which he takes any responsibility at all.

Have I left anything out? I thought it was obvious, but now I've lined it out for you.

[Bookitty]

I do see something that I don't like, though, that doesn't have to do with kthxbye. Red Coyote, you know that Haschel said he didn't look at the time stamps, as in, he didn't know that tn hadn't read his post yet. That's not the same as saying he hadn't noticed it had only been a short while. They are two different things. Haschel may or may not have looked at the time stamps. He admits he was pressuring TN to respond quickly, so RC's reaction seems odd to me.

I didn't look at the time stamps.

I don't buy this, HC. I think this is a flat out lie. You mean to tell me you posted questions to tn at 11:27 PM, he answered an unreleated question at 11:28 PM, you called him out for not answering your questions at 11:31 PM, and you didn't look at the time? You didn't realize that it had only been ~4 minutes since you asked him the questions? The questions you specifically told him you wanted him to "think about"?

I kind of dismissed it as overanxious at first, but now I'm seriously concerned with you trying to backtrack here.

I don't often look at the time stamps. Generally they aren't relevant. If Haschel refreshed and saw a response, he may not have seen the time stamps. I honestly don't know nor do I have any way to find out. I do know that provoking quick answers to questions can sometimes cause scum to slip up. I think RC is probably a pretty canny player and that he knows that too. So his comment about Haschel over what is essentially an unprovable point ever (how will we ever know for sure if Haschel looked at or didn't look at the time stamps?) struck me as an odd point and a bit of a misrep. It's like me accusing you of never having read my original post that I quoted at the start of this one. Did you read it and forget it? Did you skim over it? I can't know for sure, but I can surely frame my argument to suggest that you are lying no matter what you say. I don't KNOW that RC is doing that, but I'm going to watch him. More so because he criticised me at the start of the game for joining a wagon instead of aggressively pursuing my own suspicions, and he then criticises Haschel for being too aggressive in pursuing his own suspicions.

[Bookitty]

Also all the responses in 233 avoid actually answering any of the questions K asks.

Can you expand on this, please? What questions did I miss?

[Bookitty]

The first one, I did answer. They are independently scummy.

I don't have enough information to see how they mesh as a scum team, but I don't expect my prediction to be spot on on Day One anyway. I believe I even said that we could look back at the end of the game and see how close I was to right; that hardly suggests that I have a Grand Unified Theory of Scum in this game.

I suggested that if I was right, RC might have been preparing to buss. Since RC is my least confident scumread, I don't know that that is so and I'm not going to push a case I am not that confident of in the first place.

I explained specifically how his posts were more likely coming from scum than town.

So why didn't you quote the post 233 that you were referencing, instead of taking his questions out of context and not putting my replies with them? I'll do that for you now. It seems pretty odd to me that you're addressing a specific post of mine and not quoting it yourself. And yes, by odd I mean scummy.

I'll turn it around, kthxbye, why are YOU asking a question to which you already know the answer?

Reaction....umm....duh?

What reaction were you expecting? If Sala had said, "We are only lynching these two people today!" in response, what would you have derived from it? If Sala had said, "No, of course not, Mr. kthxbye, please tell me who to lynch," what would you have derived from that?

I'm going to predict a Not Voting-Red Coyote-kthxbye scum team

1 of 3 isn't the worst you could do, but it's certainly not very good by any stretch...

It did make me laugh though, as well as your vote and the 'reasoning' behind it.

If I'm nervous about RC checking up on me, then how do you come to your conclusion of the predicted scum team?

Why were you nervous about RC checking up on you, then? I was considering bussing, but RC is my least confident read in that lineup anyway. Anyway, I don't think anyone could have predicted your train wreck of a response, bussing scum OR town.

How do you know there's only one scum in that trio? Are you certain that Red Coyote is town? Why or why not?

On that note, please explain how you came to said conclusion. How do the 3 of us mesh as a scum team?

Also, I ask NV to explain how my posts are more likely coming from scum than from town and you think I'm not going to ask you the same thing? I assume you think this as you don't explain why aside from it's different than what you are accused of?

You're each independently scummy; I admit I could be wrong about RC. Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive. You're very quick to engage in OMGUS and to come out swinging at the first hint that anyone would consider you scum. Rather than make a measured defense, you immediately resort to insults and threats.

Inconsistencies found.

Now watch this, I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat while explain why your post is likely coming from a scum mindset over a town mindset.
First, scum will want to push a wagon on town along while not stepping on any toes.
Second, scum are more likely to forget how people are interacting when they form opinions on who the possible scum team members are.

You did both in one post.

Now here's my prediction. If I'm right and NV is the scum on my wagon, you're likely his partner and threw him in your predicted scum team to try and distance without completely bussing him.

I don't think I've exhibited any unwillingness to step on toes in this game. Admittedly, I'm not calling people VIs or suggesting that they are mentally disabled in some way, but I feel like I stepped on your toes pretty good. I don't think my expressed suspicions of RC are particularly safe either; however, I have this awesome superpower that lets me win with the town even if I die, so I am not scared of your threats nor particularly committed to my personal survival.

I thought TN might be scum based on his overreaction to pressure from Haschel. You've trumped that by FAR.

To those hung up on my wordy answer to RC's question of my preferred roles:

All I said was that I enjoy playing scum and town both depending on the circumstances. I just explained it in more detail. To those on my wagon, if asked the same question (which...I am asking the same question with this), what is your answer?

I prefer Vanilla Town. See, simple.

Next up would be how/why is it more likely that my role is a scum role over a town role when I call someone derp for derp reasoning of their derp vote? Please link me ANY game in which a player you played with in linked game did this very thing which colored your opinion of this action to be more likely coming from scum.

Overexplained and overinvolved explanations to a relatively simple question? Covering all the bases just in case someone does check on your claim? No, I can't say anyone has ever announced how happy they were with their role in the thread before. You should feel special, you're a unique snowflake!

I answered every question you've mentioned in that post. Now, here is one for you:

If you had a town powerrole, would you mention in your first post how much you liked your role? Why or why not?

[Bookitty]

Also all the responses in 233 avoid actually answering

any of the questions

K asks.

Even if you felt I didn't adequately answer the selected questions you quoted in your most recent post, how does that square with the bolded part of your statement above? Isn't that a pretty serious exaggeration?

[Bookitty]

See, here's my issue, Mirhawk.

You went back and found all of kthxbye's posts with the questions; you mentioned my post by number. Why wouldn't you go back and actually READ my post if you were basing your accusations on it? Why do the work of hunting his posts when those questions were in the post you were referencing anyway? Wouldn't it have been much simpler and quicker to quote my post, if you were genuinely convinced I hadn't answered those questions?

Why go the long way around?

[Bookitty]

I believe you read my post. Clearly you didn't understand it, though, since you accused me of something you've now had to completely retract. Making false accusations reduces your credibility, at a minimum, and makes you look quite a bit scummier. Just in case you did not know.

Why are you so convinced that kthxbye is town? You have dismissed much of what he says as town playing badly; what gives you that impression specifically and differentiates his play from scum playing badly?

[Bookitty]

Sure, let's talk about that. I would be interested to know how I "shut RC down," myself. I expressed suspicions of him; did that render him mute? Did I somehow verbally break his arms?

If kthxbye is null at BEST, then he can't be town in your eyes. You even said so: "I don't think K is town." So what is your case that I must be scum? Do you think I'm bussing my scumbuddy kthxbye? I'm eager to hear your version of how K isn't town but I'm scum for attacking him.

Do you notice how kthxbye is standing idly by and letting you get beaten up for making false accusations? He's not helping you out. He's letting you take the heat all by your lonesome. Do you wonder why that might be?

[Bookitty]

I don't actually think anyone but me regards RC as suspicious. Certainly you don't. So your argument falls apart right there.

By your argument, one could never express suspicion of anyone for being manipulative because they would then be influencing the oh-so-easily-led town to follow along. I go the other way on this argument. If I'm suspicious of someone, I say so pretty much right away.

Who was I sheeping when I jumped on TN? I wagoned you, because your reaction to the Salamence gambit really didn't ring true to me. You explained your inexperience and I accepted that as fact at the time, but maybe I was hasty on that. I voted kthxbye because someone I read as town, Squirrel Girl, asked for more votes on him. I thought kthx was probably scum anyway for that first post and the Generic-kthx exchange.

Now that you've made PROVEN false accusations against me, I'm not sure of your alignment anymore. I had you as prob-town, but your recent posts haven't borne that belief out.

The fact that he's letting me take the heat on this is actually the scummiest thing he's done thus far.

Nothing else he's done makes him look more scum then town, or vice versa.

So, why do you suppose he has four people on his wagon? Are all of us scum?

[Bookitty]

How could I have phrased my critique of RC's questions in a way that would not have influenced the opinions of the other players? Example, please.

Was I going the way the wind was blowing when I noted my suspicion of RC?

Are you not trying to influence the opinions of the other players?

I still think kthxbye is scummier than you, despite your false accusations. So I don't actually need to withdraw a "completely legitimate" reason not to vote you at the moment. Sorry

What is the "completely legitimate" thing a quote of, anyway? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that phrase, so who did? Why is it in quotes? Is it supposed to be sarcasm?

[Bookitty]

I should add an addendum that yes, I do feel the drive behind your case on K is because you were mad at him.

What alignment do you like playing as? Be honest, because I'm going to check your answer.

Honestly, I like playing scum when my partners are active and don't get themselves caught D1. On the other hand, I really like playing town PR's as I tend to live a long time due to being scummy enough to not get NK'ed and towny enough to not be lynched. I'm not a fan of VT, but I do make some exceptions to that in themed games.

Who is more scummy at this point? TN or Mir?

Why are you asking this? Is our choice of lynch already narrowed down to these 2 players?

So many issues with this post, that explanation for your reaction to your role openly in the game... I don't know whether I bother to delve into the specifics this early in the game.

Stick a pin in it, I'm coming back to this one when I'm in a better mood.

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so sleeady you were on the back foot. Do you cobble together a convoluted answer that admits to such but then desperately tries to claw it back with comments that include a vague remark about sometimes living the theme, and hinting at a PR which you even then desperately try to cover over with the crap about vanilla roles.

So instead of a straight forward 'it was actually the flavour it was excited about' you clearly tried to dig yourself out of a hole.

vote kthxbye

Glad you were so excited about my response though, feel free to give a convoluted answer as to why about that too.

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so sleeady you were on the back foot. Do you cobble together a convoluted answer that admits to such but then desperately tries to claw it back with comments that include a vague remark about sometimes living the theme, and hinting at a PR which you even then desperately try to cover over with the crap about vanilla roles.

So instead of a straight forward 'it was actually the flavour it was excited about' you clearly tried to dig yourself out of a hole.

vote kthxbye

Glad you were so excited about my response though, feel free to give a convoluted answer as to why about that too.

......pfft...bwahahahahahahaha!

thanks mate, I haven't laughed like that since I was a little girl.


Jake's play so far reminds me of his town game.

Red always looks town whether he is scum or not sooooo we shall see.

Not Voting's 102 is baaaaaaaad.

Generic went full retard. Everyone knows you should never go full retard.

Though I think Not Voting is probs scum for that weak ass vote, I think I will just sheep Jake today.

VOTE: Sal

Wow, looking at those post numbers, you're right!

Generic has mystical psychic powers that allow him to be mad BEFORE the insult happens!

[Bookitty]

I don't agree.

Anyway, stupid =/= anger-based, which was what you were alleging before my quote-post.

That's twice you've made false accusations now.

Are you not really reading the thread?

[Bookitty]

I'm mad at Not Voting because his recent posts make me think my scum trio lineup is wrong in his case and I won't get a gold star at the end of the game.

I'm mad at Red Coyote for not coming back and defending himself or calling me scum or some other dramatic response to my suspicions of him.

I'm mad at Squirrel Girl because I can't think of anything bad to say about her.

Grrrr! Argh.

[Bookitty]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mirhawk

Parking my vote here for now while I figure something out.

VOTE: Kthx

L-1

Why on earth did you need to claim? And if it was to buy the NK by softclaiming a PR, why bother since it was day 1? This was a waste of time, fluffy, and caused a bunch of arguements that include, calling people a retard (unintentionally), and overreacting.

He claimed VT. Why would you be shocked that someone claimed VT at L-2?

Your arguments here sound like a preemptive excuse for lynching town. Now, I can't read you at all, so I'm not sure that I'm right. Explain to me why you'd suggest he was trying to draw the NK if you thought he was scum?

@kthxbye

: This is unrelated to your alignment. If you unintentionally caused distress or discomfort to someone by making a comment that they took personally, do you think you could find it in your heart to apologise even if you meant no harm by that comment?

Red Coyote hasn't posted in a couple of days anywhere on site that I can see. I would prefer to wait to see what he says (whether he is town or scum) before we end the day today.

Probably more questions later depending on responses.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I remember.

@kthxbye

: What happened to your suspicions of me (the scum on your wagon argument)? Why wasn't I mentioned in that lynch lineup?

[Bookitty]

I don't know what the scum motivation is for softclaiming a PR in the way kthxbye did it, either.

When you said: Why on earth did you have to claim? Which claim were you referring to with that? The original breadcrumbing (or whatever) or the claim he had just made of VT?

[Bookitty]

Here's my dilemma.

1. If I were a town powerrole, I would never make the comment kthxbye did in my first post.
2. If I were a scum planning to softclaim a town powerrole, I would try to think of what a real town powerrole would do and I would try to emulate that behaviour.
3. So, if I were a scum trying to softclaim a town powerrole, I would never make the comment kthxbye did in my first post.

Unfortunately, I already called kthxbye out on the fact that 1. is true. So he couldn't claim a powerrole even if that had been the plan. It would have been a bad plan anyway though.

Anyone else (you too, Sala) can feel free to weigh in and explain how I'm wrong on this. I don't think it invalidates any of the other things I saw in kthxbye, but I will do a reread sometime soon just to be sure.

[Bookitty]

@Sal
Do you find me scummy for my interactions with Boo, or are you still on about that miller jazz.

I'm not too suspicious of kthxbye at this point. Recently, he has more or less posted in a way that fits a certain town-scenario. Unless someone really needs me to outline that scenario, I'm not going to do it because it would just be suggesting a town-sounding explanation for his actions that he could then use, but I can if it's really vital to anyone. He's posting real content now, so that's good too.

The quote above is bothering me. Like Natirasha's self-voting, claiming miller or something else incriminating during the RVS stage is generally used to derive a reaction. I can't make any assessments of Sala's alignment from the fact that he used it (and I SUCK at reading him anyway) but generally speaking, here's how I felt that went down:

During RVS joke voting stage, Sala made a post that I felt was clearly joking about being a miller and omg lynch me quick.
Mirhawk responds seriously, seems to be looking for support for that view and doesn't put a vote down.

Now, that's textbook, and Sala pursues it appropriately imo. I wasn't all that sure because of the lack of experience. It's always WIFOM when someone behaves in an obvious scummy way (already in this thread I remember two instances in which people stated "Scum wouldn't do that because it would be a scumtell and they would know it." To which I respond, then how will we EVER catch scum?) and I was generally erring on the side of wait and see.

I waited and I saw. Mirhawk went after me for my suspicions on kthxbye, despite noting that NO ONE had explained why one of kthx's posts was scummy. When I did, he basically hand-waved my explanation. You'd think I had pushed that wagon all by my lonesome. And ultimately, I did get a result from my questions; I was able to get responses from kthxbye that made me feel a whole lot better about him.

I don't like Sala's post in which he votes kthxbye. But as I said, I'm very unsure of my ability to read Sala or predict what he would do.

Mirhawk seemed to be looking for anything that he could find to throw at me, just looking to see what would stick. He said I didn't answer any of kthx's questions; when I proved I'd answered ALL of them, he then hand-waved that with the response that he didn't like my answer and he hadn't fully read the post he'd cited to accuse me in the first place. I noted my suspicions of Red Coyote, who is a good player imo and is fully capable of defending himself when he gets back. Mirhawk accused me of trying to influence other players, which... Duh! I am trying to make other players aware of my suspicions as they come up. If I wasn't trying to have SOME influence on the game, I wouldn't bother to post at all.

Now he's asking Sala why he's scummy. THIS pings my scumdar a lot. That "miller jazz" comment is a soft-discredit on suspicions that were justified. If Mirhawk is town, why would he think his interactions with me were scummy?

Actually:

@Mirhawk

: Why would you think Sala was voting you because of your interactions with me?

[Bookitty]

Although I also don't see any world thanks to the vindictiveness that Salamence has put forth where he is anything but town-aligned I guess.

I don't know what this means. Can you say it more plainly, please?

[Bookitty]

Thank you. I was puzzling over that for ages. At one point I thought Nati was saying that Sala was so scummy he'd destroyed the world.

[Bookitty]

Quote tags in that are messed up, kthx. Mirhawk said the second quote, not me.

I think both Generic and SG are town.

[Bookitty]

Mirhawk:

Let's get a few things straight. First, you made false accusations of me based on a post that you later said you didn't even fully read. You said it was scummy that I (and everyone else on kthx's wagon) didn't explain why one of his posts looked scummy to us. You didn't attack anyone else for that, just me. When I explained it, you just hand-waved it and ignored it anyway.

Why would you stick your neck out like that if you were scum? If you thought I was scum, why would you ask me that question? Or was that for everyone else to see, sort of a manipulative thing?

The miller-reaction scumtell didn't mean too much to me when I thought you were a newb. Your persistent twisting of the facts since that time (false accusations, proven false) has led me to think that I was wrong in dismissing Sala's initial suspicions.

I phrase my responses by using quotes and facts to point out inconsistencies. I haven't evaded any questions, despite your trumped-up accusation. I don't know if RC is town; I suspect he'll come in and explain how I'm scummy for suspecting him, and I'm looking forward to that. Right now I think kthx is null. He's starting from zero with me and I'll watch him from now on, but he's contributing and not acting scummy at the moment.

How am I derailing you, by the way? You've really not addressed anyone else and you've been tunneled on me relentlessly. I'm not complaining, but what else were you going to do if I'd let your false accusation stand unanswered?

Yeah, it's scummy to ask it that way. "That miller jazz" is dismissive. I don't feel like my interactions with you were scummy and I doubt anyone saw them that way. Why would you think that people would see yours as scummy unless you thought they might be too?

As for the manipulative thing: I call them like I see them. I'm not afraid of being lynched for it. So point out some examples of this master manipulation thing I'm doing, please. I think I've been as straightforward as possible.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I am nitpicky and I was being nitpicky at you, RC. Yeah, the difference between looking at time stamps and knowing that only a short time has passed is probably semantic. I still think you can't know that he didn't look at the time stamps; since you say that you meant this in a figurative sense, not a literal one, I'm going to say yeah, you're right. I think Haschel's aggressive pursuit of someone he found scummy (and who has subsequently said he had time to post, but has still not posted much of content) is not scummy in itself. This may be coloured by my views on TN.

The "steering the town" derives directly from your interactions with me and Sala at the start of the game. You commented about Sala in a negative light, then said Sala was "playing rather town so far. Keep it up." and retracted the jab. I have no clear read on Sala. I did think that looked like a soft-discredit and retraction. Much like testimony in court, though, ordering the jury to disregard the last statement doesn't change the fact that they heard it. My comment about you was actually similar, but had to do with your play in THIS game.

I'm saddened that you didn't come in and pick a fight with me, but I'm good with your answers.

I kind of feel that Mirhawk has been throwing whatever he thinks might stick at me without actual regard to the facts, so I'm curious about why he's so high on your townlist, RC.

Also, do you want my town-explanation of kthx's behaviour? I'll give it if it's wanted, but it might just serve to muddy the water if he is actually scum.

Is Swamp Thing the other other white meat?

[Bookitty]

@Mirhawk: If it had been one sentence, that would have been one thing. You are consistently using hyperbole in referring to things; I NEVER answer questions, I ALWAYS manipulate. You based a large chunk of your case on the fact that I didn't answer kthxbye, and when I pointed out that I had, you responded that you hadn't fully read the post you cited to make that case.

That's a little different than the way you're painting it now.

I invite you or anyone to meta me. I post like this in every game I'm in. It's playstyle, and if you don't like it, too bad. Be glad I'm not posting quote walls yet.

[Bookitty]

RC is probably town. He addressed every issue I had with him and I feel much better.

What I think is interesting is that LadyLambdaDelta started that wagon, but you're taking the blame for it, SG.

@Natirasha:

Why the spite for SG? If I vote for you, will you post again and give reads?

[Bookitty]

I would ask LadyLambdaDelta to explain her comment about Mirhawk, but she only wants to talk to RC

RC, Generic makes a decent point here. kthxbye is still the top wagon. Why not vote him and bring new life to the wagon if he is your top scumread, rather than moving your vote to Not Voting, whom kthxbye is also voting?

[Bookitty]

RC: You are aware there is a wagon already on kthxbye?

If he is objectively the best lynch, as you've said twice now, why aren't you pushing that? Isn't joining a counterwagon with only one person on it less likely to result in a lynch when deadline is looming?

I'm trying to understand your reasoning here.

[Bookitty]

Generic, SG, willing to counterwagon Mirhawk with me? I think his interactions with Sala, his defense of kthx and RC and his interactions with me would make it an informative lynch anyway. I'm pretty sure he's scum.

We can decorate the wagon with bacon and extra cheese!

[Bookitty]

Maybe on Nati. I kind of think this is the way he always plays.

You think I'm conf-biasing Mirhawk? I have no meta and the overstating cases thing is something I used to do as newbscum myself.

And your drink looks yummy!

[Bookitty]

I think Generic is town. I'm not so sure on Haschel anymore; his prolonged absence and lack of commentary is more scummy than not, but I'm waiting to see if that resolves itself in the next few days before I am ready to mark him in the scum column. Dex hasn't posted enough for me to comment on and was V/LA for the start of the game.

I still think Mirhawk is scum, but if I'm right there will be plenty of time to find that out later in the game too.

Yeah, I can go for a Nati lynch on the basis that he won't produce content unless he's forced to at the threat of lynching, which is anti-town. I can go for a kthxbye lynch on the thought that we'd get a ton of information from it and it would firm up some other reads for me either way. I don't really want to vote kthx, though, because {Not Voting, TN, Salamence} are on that wagon now and since I have NV as a mild scum-read and TN as a medium one, I don't think kthx is that likely to flip scum.

Not up for a Sal lynch today.

At best, Nati isn't really interested in this game. I'm willing to give him an early out. He might be scum; he's clearly not going to act in a pro-town way.

VOTE: Natirasha

I'm having to console myself with a Snickers bar. They're packed with peanuts. I don't know if you know that.

[Bookitty]

I'm confident SG is town. I don't always agree with her, but I can always see the underlying reasoning for what she's saying.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I'll take advantage of that opportunity.

UNVOTE:

Nati, who other than SG has seemed scummy to you? What do you think of the case on kthxbye? How about Not Voting?

Thanks!

[Bookitty]

Not Voting I need confirmed whether they are or are not a Who alt before passing judgment.

As he is among my top scumreads and I have no meta, I would like to know what it means to be a Who alt when you find out.

[Bookitty]

@Sala

: I think you're town. I think your gambit is in line with your town play and your reactions are not careful about stepping on toes.

I just don't want people sheeping me on that because it's my read and you're hard to read. But I have you as a strong town lean. I personally don't see any way you gambit that way or react that way if you are scum.

I love giant quote walls myself.

[Bookitty]

Not to interrupt the expressions of vitriol and the declarations of eternal love, but we do need to lynch someone.

Nati, do you promise to stay active in this game?

If yes, my lynch pool is {tn5421, not voting, Mirhawk}; if no, add Nati to that list.

I'm not voting SG, RC, LLD, Sala or Generic. The other reads I think I've explained already, but feel free to ask me anyway.

I'm actually sick of people taking little snipes at Sala. Regardless of anything else, he got us out of RVS and started discussion that allowed us to get reads, so cut it out. I <3 Sala and we're in THIS game now so I don't care about your lingering anger. Get over it and play THIS game. Tell me why he's scum in THIS game. Enough with the constant ad hominem. Suck it up and move on.

Yeah, I think that's all.

[Bookitty]

Also Boo, if I am a townread, why isn't KThx in your lynch pool, because I thought you unvoted because of me

I am not convinced that kthx is scum. I was suspicious of you when you voted him for claiming VT, but your play past that has moved me to think once again that you're town. You're not my most town, Generic has that honour. SG is up there too.

I'm in a bit of a mood right now, but I'll lay my vote down where I think it's most deserved:

VOTE: TN5421

He combines the unwillingness to give content without being constantly pressured of Nati with the "go with the flow" attitude I associate most strongly with scum.

[Bookitty]

Yes, your vote on him made you look suspicious. I unvoted him because I didn't see why you had such a reaction. I think I said something about it at the time. Then he started making sense to me, and as I said before, I have a possible explanation that could make his behaviour townie. Your behaviour was townie to me before and it was after, so I wasn't weighing the vote and reaction as heavily as the other behaviour surrounding it. None of this happened in a vacuum. Both of you have posted since then.

I wasn't tracking my vote changes, nor do I care how many I've had. If we're going to reach a consensus, we have to pick someone we all think is scummy. As I said, I'm in a mood, so at the moment I don't care if that's me. I have a tendency to tunnel, I know it, and I'm trying to do better about it. I'm not particularly concerned about what anyone thinks about me; I'm concerned with finding scum and lynching them. I'm fairly sure Mirhawk isn't the only scum in the game. And I was on Mirhawk before Generic. I left to pressure Nati to contribute, with mixed results.

So yeah, I'm in a mood. But if you want to say I'm scummy for having vote changes, just say it. If you want to say I'm scummy for changing my vote from tn to mirhawk at the start of the game and now changing it back to another of my primary suspects, just say it. Don't hint around about it in this way. Push for my lynch. I'm straightforward with you; do me the same courtesy.

[Bookitty]

Important stuff first: Happy birthday, Skullduggery and Natirasha!

@Sala: I apologise for snapping at you in my last post. I was in a very bad mood, but that does not excuse me taking it out on you.

One thing that bothers me about TN is this:

I'm a bit excited for this game, too.

Generic had accused me of being jittery and voted me. I'd explained I was just excited about this game, and this was TN's response.

If TN was excited about the game, though, wouldn't you suppose he would actually play it? Instead, it has seemed to me that he just reactively answered what others asked of him and volunteered no information at all. For the rest of it, Generic explained it pretty well in his Post 468.

I like how kthxbye was sternly admonishing me to put my vote down earlier and now is complaining because the wagon built too fast Guys, he just meant me!

[Bookitty]

I'd be totally willing to Hammer tn. I'd also be totally down to flashmob NV. I have Kthx as HardTown from my extensive meta with him.

I'd rather kthx have a chance to weigh in before you hammer. He said he wanted to get a read on you before that happened. Also, if TN claimed, I missed it.

Apart from those two issues, I'm good with you hammering.

[Bookitty]

Either I go or NV goes today and let the doc thing play itself out imo.

I prefer NV. I don't think you're scum and it goes against the grain to vote for you when I don't think you're scum. I don't disagree with your logic, but I'd rather have a chance to lynch scum than to lynch prob-town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Not Voting

[Bookitty]

"Part of me wonders why flavor name was left out. I'm always paranoid but I can't wrap my mind around a situation where lynching claimed doc on D1 over claimed VT is better for the win."

This. I can believe doctor claim. But I dont like (Flavor name)

Hell, I could say Im (Flavor Name) Bulletproof unlynchable joat and it wouldnt be believeable compared to *insert name* bulletproof unlynchable joat. (Not that either would be real, but im sure you understand.

I agree with the above sentiments. TN is probably Pansy-Ass Quiche, enemy of the town. :p But it can wait til tomorrow. I support flash-mob violence against Not Voting today.

Kthx, please stop voting yourself and come vote with me. You too, Sala.

[Bookitty]

I want to trust SG, but her logic and mine have parted ways.

D3X made the argument I was reserving regarding Kthx, which for my part goes as follows:

I got my role PM. Skullduggery is AWESOME at flavour (yeah, pun half intended) and I was really excited for the game. I can see how someone who was equally excited might have done what kthx did just out of enthusiasm and having fun; I'm talking about the breadcrumbing of the flavour name. The overexplainy thing has been answered to my satisfaction; I won't forget it, but a quick meta scan didn't show it as out of character for kthx as either town or scum.

To me, TN's response looks like scum who doesn't have a safeclaim for his flavour name. I wouldn't have qualms about telling mine if I got run up, so I think it's suspicious that TN wouldn't announce it happily and with pride if he were actually the doc. I think he was fishing for a counterclaim.

I don't see why you'd ever want to lynch someone who looks town over someone who looks like scum, the doc issue aside. I would sort of like SG to explain her thinking more in depth.

@SG: Why do you think kthxbye would be advocating his lynch and voting himself if he were scum? Wouldn't scum want another roleclaim out there for added accuracy?

[Bookitty]

Kthx has explained why he's advocating a self-lynch. He wasn't complaining about your vote on him; he was complaining about you justifying it even when no justification was needed. That is a bit odd. If I tell you that you can have my hazelnut smoothie, you don't feel the need to announce to everyone around, "Hey, I'm ENTITLED to this hazelnut smoothie. It's mine by right! I'm right to take it!" You'd been admiring this hazelnut smoothie for a while, so I don't think you needed further justification.

I don't feel sorry for kthxbye. I admit, I'm vulnerable to AtEs and I have to steel myself against them, but I didn't see any AtE in his post. He was presenting logic, which I appreciate. He backed up that logic with a vote on himself. Kthxbye didn't Spock us and say, "I sacrifice myself for the good of the town, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." He presented four options and explained which one he thought was best.

I could be wrong about kthxbye. But I don't feel like voting someone I'm reading as town right now. I'd sooner vote TN at this point, doctor claim and all, because of the flavour claim being missing in action.

[Bookitty]

Okay, here is my logic. Correct me if you see something wrong.

TN has offered up a dubious Doc claim. No flavour name, and he's lurk-scummed through most of the day with just enough content to avoid prods.

If we let him live, and he's town, scum probably won't kill him tonight because they know he's a guaranteed mislynch tomorrow.
If we let him live, and he's scum, then we do have a lynch tomorrow that nets us no real new information.
If we lynch him now and he's town, scum will kill someone else tonight and it could be a power role.
If we lynch him now and he's scum, scum will still kill someone else tonight and it could be a power role.

Same is true of Not Voting, by the way. The information might be a little better, but the other options aren't.

@TN:

What is your flavour rolename, please?

[Bookitty]

I can verify that food is in the game.

[Bookitty]

I would have expected 'a Bottle of Jack Daniels, Greasy Doctor' or something similar.

This part I agree with.

[Bookitty]

For me, it comes down to a TN lynch or a Not Voting lynch. I can go either way, and I think the drawbacks are about the same regardless. I'm not voting Kthx today, so please don't ask me.

I'm voting Not Voting right now, but I can compromise and vote TN if that's preferred. I would ask TN why he didn't include flavour in his first claim post, but I think he's probably scum and I feel like that would be an exercise in futility and WIFOM.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I just checked and deadline is Saturday evening. We have time for TN to give his reads and for some more discussion before it's crunch time.

I would like for Red Coyote to weigh in, but as he's V/LA I don't expect I'll get my wish before we lynch.

[Bookitty]

Because that's what our role PMs look like?

Is yours significantly different than that?

[Bookitty]

How do you know this, Haschel?

This is information town wouldn't have, AFAIK. Have you seen the scum role PM? Because I haven't. And you're making an assumption that only leads to one of two conclusions. Neither of which I think you intended with this line of questioning.

Why would you think the scum PM would have the word greasy in it as a synonym for vanilla?

[Bookitty]

I'm pretty sure you could say your role; kthxbye did, and he remains alive and unscolded.

[Bookitty]

This should not be argued debated or mentioned until tomorrow.

This is an obvious rolefish.

I didn't bring it up. So who are you suggesting is doing the rolefishing?

And on your first point, I would agree, but it's a little late now.

EBWOP: I would say offhand, Haschel, that I didn't study that vanilla townie post to the degree that you did. Townie is a generally accepted term for VT: agree or disagree?

[Bookitty]

DO MOT ANSWER THIS

WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW

Okay. I see your post and I accept your point.

But I'm sulky about it.

[Bookitty]

I suspect it's too late anyway, Sala.

[Bookitty]

Vote: Kthxbye

With a self vote he's either scum going for a play, in which case he's a good lynch, or he's town who thinks his wincon is getting himself dead, in which case he's also a good lyncha nd I'm sheeping him

Also, his answer about the breadcrumbs leaves me pretty flat. It feels fake.

This is the part of your response that looks like you're voting him for his vote. The previous part is as you say, but this is the last part and it looks like your vote is directly in response to that.

You can see how that looks like you're voting him for his self-vote, "sheeping him" for that vote, right?

[Bookitty]

Fair enough. Your underlying point is serious, though, or appeared so at first glance: he's playing scummy or he's playing anti-town, so in both cases he's a good lynch. That doesn't seem silly on day one to me. That was the point of the Nati wagon, too, wasn't it?

Would you have voted him at that point if not for the self-vote?

[Bookitty]

@TN:

What are you so angry about? I don't see what has happened that has made you so furious at the mod.

[Bookitty]

Yes, obviously I'm a VT. Just as obviously, I don't know what a power role PM looks like.

Because grease is good in this game flavour, I assumed that it was the pro-town modifier in my PM.

I was assuming that scum would have a PM that looked like: Pansy-Ass Quiche. I think I even said so earlier.

I don't know why you would call out and vote someone who had unknowingly soft-claimed Vanilla. Not the best move there, dude.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, you're a monster, Mirhawk :p

Seriously, though, you're making a really big assumption there. I don't see the evidence that tn5421 would be a competent doctor. Can you provide any support for that assertion?

[Bookitty]

In case it's not obvious, the previous post was tongue-in-cheek.

[Bookitty]

Really seriously, this time, I think we have to wait and see what happens with TN5421. It's not our call on whether he's replaced or whatever; that's been made really clear previously in this thread. I would prefer not to lynch TN today for {reasons that should be obvious}. If those reasons aren't obvious, don't ask me, please. Let it be a delightful mystery for right now.

[Bookitty]

SG: You looked at the game D3X linked in which kthxbye did the exact same thing as town?

[Bookitty]

Think about what happens if we kill him.

I see no reason to make it THAT easy.

[Bookitty]

I think the underlying reason, however, is the same. In neither case is there a material advantage for breadcrumbing a VT role. I can see doing so if you were excited about the game and happy with the flavour. (There's no escaping that pun.) My primary issue was the overexplainy thing; since he's settled down, I have less of an issue with that.

Anyway, I am out for a while. I will read and answer anything tomorrow at the latest, though.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Leaving aside all issues regarding the value of docs and whatever else is out there, I have a proposal to make.

@Mod:

Can we have a brief extension on the deadline pending the decision on TN?

@Everyone Else

: I don't support starting a brand-new wagon (Mirhawk) this close to deadline. I'm not especially thrilled that this push is coming just as Mirhawk has announced V/LA through the deadline and won't be here to give any defense most likely.

However, what I do support is that TN or TN's slot agree to protect HC overnight. If TN is scum, this will prevent HC from being the nightkill for obvious reasons. If TN is town, unfortunately, that means he's going to eat a bullet tonight. That was likely to happen anyway, though.

This serves two purposes: It prevents the scum from having free choice between two targets. It also serves as an alignment test for TN and to a lesser degree to HC. Scum can't get to HC without going through TN; if TN stays alive, it's a pretty fair bet that either HC is scum or TN is.

This only works if TN-slot agrees to protect HC, so we need either a replacement or a promise from TN. Hence my asking for a brief deadline extension while this situation works itself out.

Please point out any obvious (or less obvious) mistakes in my logic on this.

@Squirrel Girl:

I understand where you are coming from. I think we have to agree to disagree on this one though.

[Bookitty]

I'll throw in here. Because it might divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum.

Do you realise what you just said here?

What do you think of RC? Specfically, the point of him saying he didnt' want more info on D1?

Well, that's not precisely what he said, but I think it's clear that RC and I don't always see eye-to-eye.

I do feel bad that I'm not one of your most town, now, though.

[Bookitty]

You are saying that kthxbye was voting himself to divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum.

Why would he do that as scum?

Explain that, please. Because currently I'm feeling a LOT more confident about my vote on you.

[Bookitty]

... and the silence is suddenly deafening.

[Bookitty]

Did you read what Not Voting said?

What do you make of his sudden silence and disappearance after I pointed out his scumslip?

[Bookitty]

That is not what Not Voting said, Sala.

Read it carefully.

[Bookitty]

@Sala:

Do you think kthxbye was voting himself to "divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum" as well?

[Bookitty]

That makes no sense at all. Explain?

[Bookitty]

No, you're wrong.

Not Voting was attacking kthxbye (and myself). He was answering a question I put to SG (and which SG answered much better) about why kthx would self-vote and ask to be lynched as scum.

Not Voting's answer was "to divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum."

This is a classic reversal of alignment scumtell. Not Voting knows he's messed up, I suspect, as witnessed by his sudden departure from the scene.

Not Voting is trying to push a lynch on kthxbye and meant to accuse him of diverting a train from a SCUM and pushing the train over to TOWN, I believe. Instead, he accuses kthxbye of something scum would have zero motivation to do.

If Not Voting is scum, kthxbye is almost certainly town. And I'm really sure Not Voting is scum. His convenient disappearing act after I pointed out his scumslip makes that abundantly clear.

[Bookitty]

Please read my Post 590 for why I think your plan is a suboptimal idea.

[Bookitty]

That WIFOM exists with or without the claimed doctor in play. Anyway, I want to wait for others to weigh in. You haven't actually disputed any of the logic in my post, which is what I'm looking for right now.

I will be reposting Not Voting's comment later so it doesn't get buried and forgotten.

[Bookitty]

If that's in play, that's still no riskier than delivering up targets 1-2. I don't see why we have to make it easier when there's a better alternative.

[Bookitty]

You believe it's preferable to kill one of the potential town power roles outright and let the scum have a free shot at the other one with no real opposition? What if they are both town?

[Bookitty]

If HC is dead, we can lynch TN. I'm not making the impassioned plea, "OMG, save TN's life, he's so town!" I'm saying that as a practical matter, if TN IS town (something that HC OUTED himself to prove, apparently) then why make CERTAIN that HC dies tonight?

Lynching is a pretty good cure for all types of WIFOM.

I'm going to repost what Not Voting said now, because I don't find that WIFOMY in the least.

[Bookitty]

I don't see why you'd ever want to lynch someone who looks town over someone who looks like scum, the doc issue aside. I would sort of like SG to explain her thinking more in depth.

@SG: Why do you think kthxbye would be advocating his lynch and voting himself if he were scum? Wouldn't scum want another roleclaim out there for added accuracy?

I'll throw in here. Because it might divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum.

[Bookitty]

Why would kthxbye be motivated to divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum, if kthx was scum?

[Bookitty]

That is the polar opposite of what you said.

[Bookitty]

Why did you disappear after I pointed out your scumtell in the first place? You were all full of fire and brimstone and then you just... ran away? In mid argument? SRSLY?

[Bookitty]

I don't see why you'd ever want to lynch someone who looks town over someone who looks like scum, the doc issue aside. I would sort of like SG to explain her thinking more in depth.

@SG: Why do you think kthxbye would be advocating his lynch and voting himself if he were scum? Wouldn't scum want another roleclaim out there for added accuracy?

I'll throw in here.

Because it might divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum.

These are YOUR words.

[Bookitty]

Want me to paste your whole post? I'd be happy to.

[Bookitty]

Kthx, please stop voting yourself and come vote with me. You too, Sala.

Twist my arm...
VOTE: NV

He's my preferred lynch today anyway, but if it get's split and we are in danger of a NL, my flip is better than no flip.

And look at the quick switch to pivot from the self-vote ploy. Garbage. And "inspired" by Bookitty makes me feel like this is teamplay.

I don't see why you'd ever want to lynch someone who looks town over someone who looks like scum, the doc issue aside. I would sort of like SG to explain her thinking more in depth.

@SG: Why do you think kthxbye would be advocating his lynch and voting himself if he were scum? Wouldn't scum want another roleclaim out there for added accuracy?

I'll throw in here. Because it might divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum.

Claim: Town Doctor, a Bottle of Jack Daniels

Others mentioned it, but putting "Town" in there smacks of guilty conscience, similar to how Kthx "honestly" smacked of guilty conscience.

For me, it comes down to a TN lynch or a Not Voting lynch. I can go either way, and I think the drawbacks are about the same regardless. I'm not voting Kthx today, so please don't ask me.

I'm voting Not Voting right now, but I can compromise and vote TN if that's preferred. I would ask TN why he didn't include flavour in his first claim post, but I think he's probably scum and I feel like that would be an exercise in futility and WIFOM.

What do you think of RC? Specfically, the point of him saying he didnt' want more info on D1?

If you think I'm scum with kthx, as you claimed to in this post, why would you be arguing with me as if you think I'm town to be convinced of kthx's guilt now?

[Bookitty]

I think your thought processes are pretty clear, unfortunately for you.

I'll let others weigh in, but I'm really delighted with my current vote.

[Bookitty]

I've been wrong before plenty of times. Usually when someone says something like that last comment to me, though, they are indicating that they know I'm town. Scum pushing a crap case wouldn't be "wrong." They'd just be scum.

[Bookitty]

My post was directly under yours; I thought it would be clear that I was answering you.

If you didn't see it, though, fair enough.

[Bookitty]

@Boo- It's not that I didn't see it or even had the potential to miss it, it's more of an open communication thing. If you see the late push on an absent Mir as scummy, why not directly call me scummy? Maybe you just didn't like it and didn't think it was neccessarily scummy, but that's how it read to me. It felt like a thinnly veiled diss. w/e

Okay, I've been unclear.

If you didn't see Mir's V/LA, that's fair. I know you saw my post, so that wasn't what I was referring to.

I don't want to start a wagon on someone who is V/LA. I think it gains us little or nothing in terms of information. If I thought it was scummy to do so, though, I'd have called you out on it. I'm pretty direct.

Since I was the biggest proponent of the Mirhawk wagon, I would hardly think you scummy for agreeing with me :p

[Bookitty]

Now correct me if I got this wrong, but NV said kthxbye self voted to divert attention off a town wagon and focus it on a scum wagon.

And since he moved over to NV straight after, which is the scum wagon? Kthxbye or NV?

Because I read the back and forth between boo and NV and not once does NV say he muddled up the alignments, so he meant to say that?

That's how I took it. When I pointed it out, he disappeared for a while. (Ooooh, time stamps! ) His explanation later isn't making any sense either.

[Bookitty]

Your newly crafted case, Not Voting, depends on a few things that are unlikely:

If kthx was scum, he was taking the chance of drawing votes to himself (and he's accumulated a few since then) to save a scumbuddy who, by your argument, wasn't even under suspicion yet. Who does that?

You're trying to frame a scenario that 1) isn't suggested by your initial scumslip and 2) depends on scum acting selflessly on behalf of... no one yet, but maybe someone later.

Again, what you said was that kthx self-voted: "Because it might divert a train from a townie and push the train over to scum."

Nothing you say now is going to make that particular mistake go away, imo.

[Bookitty]

@Boo - Two questions for you.

Why do you think Kthx breadcrumbed a VT role?

Why do you think Kthx self-voted?

Post 509

[Bookitty]

I don't like time stamp arguments boo, because we all get busy. But I agree he isn't making a lot of sense to me with the attempt to explain away the logic of suggesting kthxbye tried to steer focus from a town wagon to a scum wagon.

What is perplexing me is the theory he seems to have that to get out of the hole he dug he must keep on digging... But I'm concerned it seems a little too obvious as a scumslip, does that make sense?

I understand you. But I also want to point out that NV's initial post depends heavily on me being partnered with kthxbye, something I don't think a rational person could believe. As soon as I attacked him for the scumslip, he started trying to convince me that kthxbye was scum. If he truly believed his first assertion (kthxbye-bookitty scumteam) then he couldn't believe that I would be moved by his arguments.

I could be wrong about him, but I don't think so.

[Bookitty]

Look at it like this, Salamence:

If TN is the doc and HC is pro-town, then if TN protects HC and is killed by scum, that's a 50 percent survival rate for town power roles.

If TN is scum and HC is pro-town, then HC is probably doomed anyway and we can lynch TN tomorrow. If scum leaves HC alive, then we have whatever he could give us tomorrow.

If TN is town and HC is scum, I'd be very surprised.

If TN is town and is roleblocked and scum kills HC, we're going to lynch TN anyway. So that's 0 percent survival rate for town power-roles, which is what we have anyway under your plan. However, that's the worst case scenario for my plan; it's the only result from yours.

[Bookitty]

@Boo - Two questions for you.

Why do you think Kthx breadcrumbed a VT role?

Why do you think Kthx self-voted?

Post 509

Please read the thread.

[Bookitty]

I want to trust SG, but her logic and mine have parted ways.

D3X made the argument I was reserving regarding Kthx, which for my part goes as follows:

I got my role PM. Skullduggery is AWESOME at flavour (yeah, pun half intended) and I was really excited for the game. I can see how someone who was equally excited might have done what kthx did just out of enthusiasm and having fun; I'm talking about the breadcrumbing of the flavour name. The overexplainy thing has been answered to my satisfaction; I won't forget it, but a quick meta scan didn't show it as out of character for kthx as either town or scum.?

[Bookitty]

There you go. I'm not constantly repeating myself while you try to cover up your scumslip with a ton of useless posts. I'll just repost it later anyway, so it's pointless cluttering of the thread.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, Not Voting, go ahead and push the case that I'm scum partners with the person I fought tooth and nail with over the course of this entire game day. That's going to play really well with people who have been reading the game.

@Sala: Think about why I would only be mentioning the two. No, I didn't word it wrong.

I'm voting NV. I'm not likely to move my vote except to avoid a No Lynch. It's obvious I think NV is scum. So why are you asking me what I think about an *anybody but NV* lynch?

Are you certain he's town?

[Bookitty]

@Skullduggery:

Can we have a brief extension on the deadline pending the decision on TN?

[Bookitty]

Oh, duh. I just saw the last post and didn't read above it.

Thanks, Skullduggery!

[Bookitty]

@Sala:

Why are you so against the Not Voting wagon? Do you think he's town? If so, what makes you think that?

[Bookitty]

Squirrel Girl is one of my more confident town reads. I think I've followed her suspicions to a degree, but she's also done the same for me. That hasn't been a one-way street, Generic.

I'm not worried about being linked to SG. I am going to rank the wagons though, because it hadn't occurred to me to do so:

I no longer think kthxbye is scum.
TN's extreme tantrum makes me think he might be town. I don't have meta and usually when someone throws a fit like that, they're town and they feel like someone has been mean to them.
I think Not Voting is scum.

Them's my reads on the wagons that I was on.

I'll let the cutest little necromancer answer for herself.

[Bookitty]

My issue with TN is that the rage seemed weird and mistimed. It sounded like his issue was about the Jake situation - which...I dunno, if that was so upsetting to him it feels like he should have replaced out days ago.

My paranoia wants to say it was actually rage about something dealing with his claim, and my mental theory is it had to do with the mod messing up his fakeclaim in some manner or other.

But, I will admit that's paranoia talking, and I don't want to lynch him today no matter how much Sal is trying to somehow sell me that lynching the claimed Doc Day 1 is a good move.

This is a really good point, though. I'm quoting it because I want to remember it tomorrow. I don't think it's paranoia at all.

[Bookitty]

@Generic (and everyone else):

However, what I do support is that TN or TN's slot agree to protect HC overnight. If TN is scum, this will prevent HC from being the nightkill for obvious reasons. If TN is town, unfortunately, that means he's going to eat a bullet tonight. That was likely to happen anyway, though.

This serves two purposes: It prevents the scum from having free choice between two targets. It also serves as an alignment test for TN and to a lesser degree to HC. Scum can't get to HC without going through TN; if TN stays alive, it's a pretty fair bet that either HC is scum or TN is.

This only works if TN-slot agrees to protect HC, so we need either a replacement or a promise from TN. Hence my asking for a brief deadline extension while this situation works itself out.

Please point out any obvious (or less obvious) mistakes in my logic on this.

Do you think this plan is a good one? The possible drawbacks are:

Scum has a roleblocker and frames TN replacement, but we were going to lynch TN anyway by the previous plan, which I don't like because it assumes worst possible scenario.

HC COULD be scum, but I'm not feeling that right now. The incident yesterday makes me think he's not, and I didn't think he was before that either, so I would like to keep him alive if at all possible.

I think this is a workable plan. I do need people to look at this plan hard and tell me what's wrong with it, please.

[Bookitty]

@MOD

: I'm willing to cross-replace if it gets us a replacement for TN sooner.

[Bookitty]

Welcome back, RC! We have a deadline extension til Tuesday evening because TN flaked on us.

So you have time to read and yell at people.

[Bookitty]

Uh, no, I disagree with this strongly. One, we shouldn't tell the supposed doctor what to do. That's their call to make. Two, HC is in no way an "obvious" nightkill aside from the fact that he has so-so townreads from a handful of players (notably you and Nat).

I'm reading that interchange between myself and HC quite a bit differently than you are, then.

Haschel was going to try to catch up yesterday; I'm hoping he will weigh in soon with his own thoughts on my plan. Regardless, however, TN is being replaced. I think there's good reason to try to direct the replacement's play, especially since it's possible we won't have a replacement until after night falls.

The reason HC is being chosen as the target for the doc has to do with his interaction with me and the conclusion I derived from it. I'd like to hear from him before I explain it more explicitly.

I believe Not Voting is at L-1.

[Bookitty]

At this point, I'm waiting for Haschel to come back and say what he thinks of my plan and whatever else he wants to say.

Waiting on Not Voting to come back too.

Deadline is tomorrow evening; I think NV is at L-1.

@Sala: What exactly is your read on Not Voting? If you haven't read him carefully, could you do so sometime soon and post your thoughts?

[Bookitty]

Well, that explains a couple of things, especially if your partner is who I think it is.

Meh, I'm out of ideas. Since we're having such difficulty getting a replacement, I'm half tempted to roll the dice and make Skull's job easier by just voting TN. My other option is Mirhawk, but now I'm paranoid about outing yet another power role.

[Bookitty]

@SquirrelGirl

: How sure are you on kthx-scum? More than 50 percent, you think?

[Bookitty]

Day 1 Will End on Tuesday, July 1st, at 7 p.m. eastern time.
Countdown: 1 day, 3 hours, 18 minutes

We have a little bit of time.

But yeah, not seeing another viable option either.

[Bookitty]

Since 50% would be sort of null read - yeah, I'm more than 50%. Let's call it 80% or something? I dunno.

Okay, I'm good with that. What was it you said? Bah? No. Baaaa.

VOTE: kthxbye

[Bookitty]

Ewww to the flavour. BAD flavour.

@Haschel: I'm still waiting for the commentary you promised on Saturday of last week.

@Not Voting: Kthxbye made a good point. Care to claim your mason partner?

[Bookitty]

The issue I have, Sala, is that NV is scummy independently and it's not unheard-of for scum to claim masons with a buddy. Not outing the other mason creates the situation of someone who risks nothing in claiming mason and gets to skate through on artificial town-cred that may not be proven until LYLO.

I'm willing to give it a pass for ONE DAY but I'm not letting it go further than that without a full-claim or a dead mason flip. Fair enough?

[Bookitty]

@Sala: I have it down to three. But that doesn't prove that it's town-mason-pair, if you see my point. The other is possible too. I'm not giving NV full faith as a mason until I see better proof than what you saw.

I'm still suspicious of Mirhawk, but I'm waiting on HC to give me the analysis/comments he promised before I start pushing any wagons. I want a reread on a couple of things to make sure I'm remembering accurately, too.

Outing the other mason today or tomorrow, assuming NV is a mason, provides town with two confirmed townies who scum will have to get rid of before LYLO. (Confirmed town is deadly for scum in MYLO/LYLO situations.)

If NV is scum, however, he will have to link another scum to his gambit. That's deadly for scum too, because it's essentially a two-fer.

If NV-town doesn't claim and we lynch town today, he's the most likely scum target. (This assumes we don't out any other power-roles during the course of the day, but that also presents another issue for scum.)

Assuming three scum, today we are at 8-3.
Lynch town today, NV killed today: 6-3 with one confirmed townie not outed.
Lynch town tomorrow, town-not-Mason killed tomorrow night: 4:3 with one confirmed townie who should claim day after tomorrow.

If NV-town does claim and we lynch town today, tomorrow we're at 6-3 with one confirmed townie outed.
Lynch town tomorrow, town-Mason probably killed tomorrow night: 4:3 with no confirmed townies.

So it does make sense not to claim today, and to claim tomorrow.

If NV-scum doesn't claim, he'll be alive tomorrow. If he doesn't claim then, and we didn't out a power-role today who was the nightkill tonight, then we have to test the claim, I think.

If we lynch scum today, though, I'll have to rethink this, because that delays LYLO/MYLO.

Check this for me; it's been a long day and I think my logic is right, but I'd appreciate someone else looking at it for any mistakes.

[Bookitty]

Mirhawk, I addressed both of the scenarios you mention in my post.

This is the second time you've failed to read what I wrote and attacked me for your own read-fail.

You do realise that others can actually see what I've written, right? They don't rely on your misinterpretations as their sole source of information on my postings.

Nice try, though.

[Bookitty]

I don't really care why you think I'm scum or are pretending to think I'm scum. It's irrelevant.

I do have a question, though. What do you think "testing the claim" means? Did you think I was suggesting we present the claim with a difficult riddle or a complex math problem?

Why are you so ready to attack what you clearly haven't even read?

[Bookitty]

Boo's hypothetical situations don't take into account that scum might not kill NV, or that if NV is scum this allows him to get away with that claim without even linking himself to another player. I don't see scum doing us a favor and shooting NV so we know there's another confirmed townie somewhere.

This is a misrep of what I said. It's inaccurate. I included both those scenarios in my post. You were untruthful about what I said, either through inattention or because you're trying to discredit me. Either way, you're misrepresenting my post. You're saying that my suggestion "allows him to get away with that claim without even linking himself to another player;" that suggests that you didn't read the part about testing his claim. So trying to reframe the argument NOW doesn't change what you said in the quote above.

It seems to me that you are trying to have it both ways, now. We should force NV to claim his partner now (something that I think Sala knew and I figured out was a suboptimal play for town) and we should not lynch him even if he survives to tomorrow and doesn't claim his partner.

Is that about the size of the argument you're making?

[Bookitty]

I'm not even disagreeing with you, how is this attacking you?

I did not say you were attacking ME. I said you were attacking my post, which apparently you either did not read or did not understand.

[Bookitty]

Not outing the other mason creates the situation of someone who risks nothing in claiming mason and gets to skate through on artificial town-cred that may not be proven until LYLO.

Outing the other mason today or tomorrow, assuming NV is a mason, provides town with two confirmed townies who scum will have to get rid of before LYLO. (Confirmed town is deadly for scum in MYLO/LYLO situations.)

If NV is scum, however, he will have to link another scum to his gambit. That's deadly for scum too, because it's essentially a two-fer.

What do you think those words mean?

As for "pushing shitty ideas on you," I apparently gave you too much credit. I thought you actually had ideas of your own. I didn't realise you were just trying to attack mine.

[Bookitty]

@d3x: Do you think there is a material benefit to NV claiming his partner today over tomorrow? If so, what is it?

[Bookitty]

@d3x: I think I have it narrowed down to three possibles; Sala has it at one. So a CC is very limited in who I would believe it from.

That said, I think you and Sala may have it right that it doesn't matter anyway. If I can narrow it down to three and he has one person, it's probably obvious. So that would basically negate any protection not claiming would give to an unclaimed mason.

I really wanted that confirmed townie in MYLO

[Bookitty]

Vote: d3x

Enough people are talking about it - can anyone point me at a game with scum fakeclaiming masons? I've never seen it, myself.

Contagion. It's possible the odd mechanic made it less risky for scum.

That game was used against Mirth (most awesome Mason partner ever) and myself in trying to discredit our mason claim in this game. It didn't work.

Good luck, Generic. I hope you can stay and play.

[Bookitty]

@SquirrelGirl

: Can you explain your town read on Mirhawk? What is your current read on Salamence?

[Bookitty]

I feel Mirhawk is trying to find scum, and his questions and actions appear to fit the mold of someone hunting scum rather than hunting easy lynches and acceptance.

Can you point out any examples of this? Post numbers or quotes will do.

What do you think about his vote on Sala?

[Bookitty]

@Generic: What's your current read on SquirrelGirl?

[Bookitty]

More later tonight, but briefly...

Nati is almost 100% cleared because I don't see her coming in here and opening with an unspecified Vote on her Scummate who just submitted the NK. It defies logic. LLD wasn't under any outward suspicion that I recall and it's unbelievably doubtful that Nati would forcably put her on Town's radar.

Even more: if Nati were scum, she's not scum with Mirhawk. Mirhawk sheeped her vote and fail-justified it in a way that looked like (omg, Nati KNOWS LLD is scum, what do I do, what do I do?) Since we know that LLD is scum now, we can say that Nati isn't (d3x explained this very elegantly in the quote posted) and that Mirhawk almost certainly is. LLD may claim some other action, but Mirhawk's behaviour pretty well seals the deal that this is not the case. Nati's vote makes her equivalently pro-town with the masons.

For some of the rest:

Post 141 lines out why I don't think RC can be scum with Jake/SG. Jake was pushing hard for RC to be forced to apologize for calling him a VI; this just doesn't seem like something that two scumpartners would hash out in the thread. It's not definitive, but it's not likely imo.

I did a meta on Generic as scum and he's much more accommodating imo. Again, it's not definitive, but I didn't think Generic was scum anyway.

I am on a deadline right now, but I'll check in periodically. I fully endorse d3x's plan and I agree with the order of lynches he lined out.

My vote will be on LLD and can be considered to be there already; I'm waiting on the confirmation from NV's mason partner and for everyone to check in.

[Bookitty]

Boo isn't clever enough to pull that.

Yeah, I can definitely feel the love.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I'm good with this.

VOTE: LadyLambdaDelta

I think that's L-1.

[Bookitty]

@d3x:

Who did you watch last night?

[Bookitty]

Lady LambdaDelta never did get around to that Mirhawk case, though, did she? She promised it a lot, but she never actually made it. She never voted him either that I see. Just the one vote on Nati.

[Bookitty]

I like Nati's line on LL. She's lurking like a champ and she dropped that case on me like it didn't exist yesterday when RC didn't bite on it.

Can you explain this a little further? Specifically, the part about "Nati's line on LL" and the part about dropping the case?

[Bookitty]

I'm not sure that I'm willing to move my Vote from Mir Today. I don't like that he hasn't answered anything in regards to the early D2 comment about Nati's reasonings for the LLD Vote and then his flop to Sal. I'm not swayed by Nati's stance on him.

I'll be joining you if he doesn't have some kind of response by this evening.

[Bookitty]

Okay, after getting 16 hours sleep in the last four days, I'm due to crash right about now.

VOTE: Mirhawk

That is L-2.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I'm surprised d3X was not the nightkill as well; however, I'm not going to paint him as scum based on surviving one night. Watching himself makes perfect sense to me for d3x-town; if there was a remaining protective role, it should have targeted d3x and so would the scum. He would have a 50-50 shot based on that alone to find a scum.

That said, I'm sure d3x is smart enough to have worked that out as well if he were scum. I can also see a scenario in which LLD didn't feel like playing and the scum arranged this exit to ensure maximum towncred for d3x. If d3x is scum, though, I would guess Mirhawk is not. I'm willing to wait til tomorrow to think about this further.

I agree with HC's attack on this page towards Tysker...but with Tysker's join date it feels...a little straw graspy.

SG's mention of LLD's slot before replacement.

@Lady Lambdadelta - I can has friends?

Would scum link themselves so closely to their buddy? I'm not thinking so.

Like, how about you respond to what Lady Lambda has done? That's not a wall.

Calling attention to scumbuddy, again, not so likely.

@Sal - I have literally just restated my reads, if you need them again let me know. Also, yes, my read on Kthx and you is in flux, and that's why I'm trying to figure it out. I will openly admit I don't think you are both scum, so, yes, in a perfect world where I could figure out which of you feels more fake I'd know exactly where to place my vote. You have correctly identified that I am unsure o fmy read there - as I have stated a few times now. I'm not sure why you're basically repeating me back to myself but with a little extra mustard on the wording.

@Squirrel Girl: Now that kthxbye has flipped town, do you think Sal is likely scum?

Breadcrumbing flavor as a VT is silly and means nothing and it's silly that Kthx did it and thinks it means something (like, he could be scum and have that flavor role - and nothing would be weird about that).
Claiming at L-2 is kind of silly too. I don't get the point.

However;

1. If he was planning to set up a fake PR claim...why did he not claim a PR.
2. I do not see how an early VT claim is a particularly scummy move. It's a silly town move, and it's a silly scum move, and I'm not sure why it would save his life if he was scum. Frankly, if you hadn't have been pushing him this way I'd still be all about lynching him right now.

This looks like a defense of kthxbye, but you continue expressing suspicion of him throughout day one despite this. Can you explain your thinking?

@Nati: What is your scumcase on SG? Just the lazy vote sheeping LLD? Do you think that Squirrel-Girl-scum is more or less likely given that LLD was the scum pushing your wagon? Do you think two scum would tie themselves together so blatantly, especially given that you think SG is clever?

@Sala: If you're referring to Mafia games, that has been fine. If you're referring to actual real life, I've had a lot on my plate of late. And very little of it has been delicious and greasy.

[Bookitty]

I think Sal has a chance to be scum, yes, I think he's probably behind Mirhawk and Generic in relative probability, but I'd probably toss him into my third seed.

I thought you were pushing Mirhawk as town? Now he is your first seed as scum?

Please explain.

[Bookitty]

I kinda townvibe on Mirhawk though.

I don't understand your position on Mirhawk. Can you clarify please?

If he's a town read, how can he be in what you seemed to list as your top three scum?

[Bookitty]

I understand what she said, but she's defended Mirhawk throughout the game. Now she's voting Generic, who I have as a moderate town read, and she's listing Mirhawk as a scumread from a townread she reaffirmed earlier today.

I would like to know what changed between Post 880 and now.

[Bookitty]

Though I have seen scum watchers before, it seems extremely awkward in this setup.

Presumably if d3x is scum, he's not a watcher, so that point would be moot I suspect that LLD would have let her scumbuddies in on her dastardly plan to kill the town mason beforehand

[Bookitty]

I'm going to UNVOTE: because I would like answers from SG prior to Mirhawk's lynch.

[Bookitty]

Errrrr...

Red Coyote, why do you want d3x to watch NV tonight?

[Bookitty]

Oh, duh, never mind. I've had a hellish week and I was thinking tracker YET again.

Never mind.

[Bookitty]

Okay. It was not clear to me that it was VCA.

Waiting on Generic's promised analysis now.

[Bookitty]

@Nati: What is your scumcase on SG? Just the lazy vote sheeping LLD? Do you think that Squirrel-Girl-scum is more or less likely given that LLD was the scum pushing your wagon? Do you think two scum would tie themselves together so blatantly, especially given that you think SG is clever?

This is the only question for which I'm currently waiting for an answer. I don't like Mirhawk's answer about the LLD vote, but I don't expect I'll get a better one by waiting.

[Bookitty]

I don't think Nati is scum, so feel free to answer. It's a question in general, not a question only for Nati.

[Bookitty]

The issue with WIFOM arguments for scum is that they bring the issue right to the forefront of town consciousness.

For example, if someone wants to push a case against me later on, it would be very easy to point to this Greasy Townie that I was too stupid to have faked and say, "Oh, no, Boo was smarter than I thought!" It puts it in people's minds. In this case, it was a misunderstanding on my part, but Generic is absolutely right to be paranoid and wary of just accepting that on my word.

For scum, deliberately putting themselves in the way of WIFOM arguments isn't smart play. Regardless of whether I dismiss SG's actions as obvtown or Not Voting points to them as obvious evidence of scummitude (I know he hasn't, I'm just using him as an example), SG's actions are going to be put under a microscope. Throughout the game, she hasn't been especially careful about how she presents herself nor about how she votes. WIFOM is great during LYLO; prior to that time, though, it can be deadly for scum during earlier stages of the game since it puts them squarely on the radar for the whole town. Inviting that level of attention to take a swipe at a lurker would be a dumb move for scum. I don't think SG is dumb. Therefore, I don't think she's scum. It's possible I'm wrong, but I don't see it right now.

[Bookitty]

This is an argument for tomorrow, though, at least in my opinion.

I'm going to revote if there aren't any further accusations, recriminations or declarations of eternal love that must be exchanged before we go to night.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: Mirhawk

[Bookitty]

Okay, that doesn't make ANY kind of sense, Sala.

Generic has been pushing the Mirhawk wagon for about as long as I have. Even if you thought Generic WAS scum (I don't), he'd be bussing his scumbuddy in this case. So why would you think Generic would be angry over something he himself made happen?

[Bookitty]

Yes, Generic has a choice and has had all along.

Note the Squirrel Girl counterwagon, waiting invitingly for anyone to jump on.

[Bookitty]

Not the point. He could have wagoned comfortably with a conftown mason and Nati. Why are you postulating that Generic went out of his way to bus his buddy and that he did so angrily, with no real choice? That isn't accurate to the situation as it exists.

[Bookitty]

For me, it's between Salamence and Squirrel Girl. I'm not confident, so I'll sheep you.

VOTE: Squirrel Girl

[Bookitty]

I'm also sure that Generic is town. I could be wrong, but I don't see his particular set of reactions coming from scum.

I would put my personal scumlist as this:

SG
Sala
Nati
RC
Generic
Not Voting

It's worth considering, though, that I have zero meta on anyone but Sala and no scum meta there.

I was very wrong on Not Voting and Mirhawk, right on Haschel, right on kthx. That's 50 percent at a generous read. I would prefer more discussion before we end the day, including some comments from SG, so:

UNVOTE:

I have some questions too. I need to reread a bit, but here's two of them:

@Nati: You wanted to lynch the doctor after the claim. You also flip-flopped on Kthx and pointed to tone reads. Can you explain your thinking on the doc-lynch (is this an accepted meta, now?) and on your evolving read on kthx?

[Bookitty]

I accept that I can't read you. I have a solid town read on Generic. I had some questions based on the last couple of days; I'm not going to vote you until I do my reread and ask my questions. I'm more confident that there were discrepancies/weirdness in SG's play.

Based on my previous reread, here are things I think I know:

I think that you and RC are not scum together. I think that you and SG are not scum together. I think that Nati and Generic are not scum together.

I get the impression you think I'm stupid and that I'll be easily led; that isn't particularly contributing to a town read for you, especially given the extreme degree of support you're giving me. See, I know I'm town, but I don't see how you would know that as such a certainty since you've never played with me as scum.

[Bookitty]

I admit that you're my least confident read, RC. If SG flips scum, though, Sala falls to just above Not Voting as a confident town-read. I don't think there's any way SG is scum with Sala based on the Jake fiasco.

[Bookitty]

But that's not why you should think I'm town.

I'll bite, then. Why should we think you're town?

[Bookitty]

Work issues have taken up almost all of my time in the last day; I should have time to look at some interactions later and to comment on some things later on today.

I hope we have some response from Squirrel Girl prior to that time.

[Bookitty]

Starting with the things I know:

Not Voting is town.

Salamence and SG aren’t scum together. Jake was trying to get Sala lynched during the loud screamy tantrum that went on in thread. Jake also said this in Post 65: “Sal isn’t lynchbait. He's a very manipulative person who knows how to gambit as scum to get town read.” RC agrees with this.

RC is probably not scum with SG either, given this in Post 143: “It's either true or it isn't true. If it's true, then you are a VI and I have no interest in attempting to reason with you. If it isn't true, you are not a VI and we can have a civilized game with you as a part of it.”

Jake has a conniption fit over being called a VI. RC might be buddying here, but “I appreciate this thoughtful response. I'll take your opinion into consideration as I continue to read the game.” And “I'm getting a real kick out of SG's posts. I'm worried I'm kind of susceptible to her charm here. SG, if you are scum, you should tell me in private because otherwise I'll have trouble being able to vote you this game, I think” seem a little heavy-handed for scum buddying town. I’m forced to consider the possibility that RC might just be a nice person.

So, no SG-Sala, no SG-RC. Looking at Generic, Nati next.

[Bookitty]

But I'm also not happy with the way I'm now being used as the weapon when Salamence makes a comment about kthxbye.

But don't discount Salamence and his opportunism either. The weird double negative town clearing he got from natirasha is also buying me. Has needs to explain that one to me as I'm not buying any of these meta clearances people ate trying to sell.

Generic and Sala are not scum together.

Natirasha is losing me as a truster of his day 1 perceived lazy play, because he is making empty promises rather than basically sticking a middle finger up at anyone who questions his lack of effort. And the little nuggets he does toss in for assessment seem deliberately confusing.

Possible distancing between Generic and Nati, but this seems unlikely to me based on strong buddying earlier from Nati to Generic. “shackle me”, etc. Possible Generic-Nati, but not a strong case there.

This doesn’t look great, though:

The early stages of the game are signature Nats, but she is clearly self aware of this. As the game opens up she drops a couple of very questionable posts and a couple of (presumed by me) breadcrumbs that later turn out to NOT be what I thought they were.
However, there is a flip in her posting that actually reads very genuine, and seems to coincide with the pressure placed on her. She begins to focus on relevant stuff, yet at no time changes her approach to the day in a way I would consider to be a result of the pressure. If anything she has read for over two thirds of the game like I was reading myself on games where I lose touch with the actual reading and play on tonal and meta basis. And there is a lot of fun and playfulness that displays a relaxed person even when put in the spotlight.

Nats is now a good town read.

And this could point to a Nati-Generic link:

I won't be voting nats anytime soon, her town meta has been apparent in the main throughout and she jumped on LLD out the gates on day 2. And she refused to push on mirhawk even though the rest of us were town reading him. Nothing she has done makes any sort of sense as scum. Even down to townreading me when I'm clearly being lined up by other players, she is going against every sound mafia play there is, if this was a gambit it's far too high risk. And as I said yesterday I'm happy placing her in the town block.

So isolating that one element, and in fact ONLY focusing on the couple of posts you did regarding me in you catch up, is a misrep. And I have to question why.
Clearly my point regarding mirhawk was to put him on the spot, and clearly he has used it to devalue my push and my case against kthxbye.

But my favourite part of the catch up is you point to kthxbye being the best lynch for today because of the claim... Then vote NV.

Also, you telling me you can't possibly be discrediting me since you are town reading me falls down of you are scum. I didn't have this opinion of you until you continued to misrep my actions in this game.

This is to Red Coyote and doesn’t look like scum distancing to me. So no RC-Generic.

I can’t get a clear read on Generic-Squirrel Girl, but Generic did say that he’d forgotten SG replaced Jake when criticized about his linking of SG and Sala. Generic always sounds like he’s telling the truth to me, so I can’t be sure this wasn’t a calculated lie; I don’t think so, though.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I may have time for more later, but I have this so far:

No Sala-SG
No RC-SG
No Sala-Generic
No RC-Generic
Possible Nati-Generic

Looking at Nati next. (Feel free to do the same thing to me; I'm just going through ISOs and then clicking on posts to see context if they mention living players who aren't NV.) I probably will do more in-depth reads once I figure out who the most likely scum-partners could be. If you see logical mistakes, want to yell at me or whatever, I'll at least check in tonight. I think I have plans for the evening, but I don't remember what they are right now.

[Bookitty]

@RC: I don't know at all that SG isn't the best lynch. Her prolonged absence is making me think scum, but it may be sitewide. I need to look at EVERYONE to be sure where the fault lines are.

Anyway, out for a bit.

[Bookitty]

Nati is questionable for me for these reasons:

She doesn't vote LLD when LLD makes the huge aggressive push against her, saying this:

To clarify, I'm spiteful at Ms. Delta, but I think Squirrel Girl is scum based on the really lazy jump onto my wagon.

I would like Squirrel Girl to comment on this, assuming she comes back:

I will also say that my Squirrel vote is no exact hard push and really shouldn't be taken as a hard scum read. I've had trouble with her in the past--famously in Faith+1 where she successfully screwed with muffin and I--but the vote on me was poorly timed as to come off scummy.

And this is odd:

ARGUEMENTS ARE HOW YOU GET FUCKING READS. ARE YOU SHITTING ME? YOU ARE SAYING THAT SOME 408 POSTS ARE WORTHLESS PENIS-MEASURING CONTESTS. THIS ISN'T LURKING, THIS ISN'T EVEN TRYING, THIS IS DOWNRIGHT BULLSHIT PERSONAL VENDETTAS AND IGNORANCE THAT JAKE HAD EARLIER, BUT YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T EVEN READ THAT, RIGHT?

Arguments are a means to an end, I suppose. When I say 'I haven't read' it's rather facetious in a way. The specific words and cases are unimportant, but the intent--the belief--the feeling behind them is. You can determine emotion. Tonality exists in all forms of consumption. Feel free to disagree, but I simply don't play mafia in such a way. 'Cases', 'walls', long-form quotes, these are all just pixie dust strewn across a page. I'm not going to pretend that they can't be effective or that my way uses less pixie dust, but at least I'm up front about it.

It's the curse of the film student in a way.

The only thing that really matters and is analyzable are hard facts, and from a look at it: this wagon on me is patently awful. Is there a single in-game reason for it? Lurking, sure, why not. But lurking through day ones is my specialty. Parading around being sarcastic is my specialty. It's based sheerly on personality conflicts as opposed to, well, anything specific.

when contrasted with this:

I legitimately haven't read the 'cases' on anyone this game--with the personality mix this game, I'm relying much more on tone to read as opposed to text.

Nati is claiming to go off "tone" but wants reasons for votes on herself.

This isn't consistent either:

Once again, voting people for personality traits is not how mafia is done.

These things are not congruent:

Like he literally claims doc at l-1 then omguses me because we have like two useless fucks who are trying to lynch me for personality conflicts(looking at Sal & LLD). Moreover, Doctor is a bad role that is only good at keeping other roles alive--honestly, the removal of a scum nk is bad in many ways due to the lack of information it provides.

Well here we are again. I just attempted to lead a lynch on the doc.

Oh well.

@Generic: Is this the Nati you're used to?

I bet Generic is thinking 'damn this isn't the Nati I'm used to'.

Generic will you sheep me tomorrow if he flips town? Because otherwise POE will mean you're scum, sorry.

I don't understand how there can be an SG-Bookitty team, as in Post 979 with Nati pushing SG scum hard and heavy all day today, while saying this later:

Also as I just said I've decided to bet the game on you and Generic being town which leaves a poe pool of Boo/RC/SG and Boo is most town of those.

I could see the first; SG-Boo interactions could surely look like scum supporting each other. The second I don't see.

For the record, Squirrel Girl last posted on Saturday and last visited on Sunday. I am going to look at Sala and RC next, but that probably won't be tonight because I'm really exhausted from dealing with stuff at work.

Not Voting is very correct that I could be wrong in my assumptions. They are what *I* am working from. Right now I could see a few different options, but I'm willing to look at any evidence/opinion that counters them. If SG is scum, we have some definite nonconnections. I don't think the LLD-Nati thing is as definitive as Nati would like to make it seem. I would like to hear more from RC that doesn't seem designed to make me think he's a darling old teddy-bear.

I'll answer any accusations, corrections or differing opinions tomorrow. I apologise for the reduced posting; I couldn't have foreseen this situation at work, and it's taking a serious emotional toll on my colleagues. Being supportive girl is more exhausting than you'd think

[Bookitty]

Has the main been online, then, to anyone's knowledge?

If so, probably a good indicator that SG is caught scum.

[Bookitty]

I'm willing to save Skullduggery the time and effort and hammer.

Any further discussion needed beforehand?

[Bookitty]

Checking in.

I will let Not Voting have the honour, but I think he's right to do it. I think she's probably scum too.

[Bookitty]

Sorry for late posting, I've been busy this weekend but I'm grabbing a second to post here.

I don't AT ALL buy Nati's claim of Survivor. I think it's a late game gambit. I was most suspicious of Nati yesterday too.

I think (not certain, but more yes than no) that Sala was trying to gambit on RC. I did say that I didn't think RC and SG were scum together, but that doesn't make him scum on his own. Same with Sala.

How credible does anyone find this claim, anyway? I have no real meta on Nati except in a very short game in which she was really distracted and I won as scum as a result. (Wee-a-boo U-Pick, if I recall correctly. It's recent.)

Look at Nati's reasoning for voting LLD and her reaction surrounding the doc thing; it's fake. I guess it could be survivor fake, but it seems more likely at this point to be a smoke screen to get through to the end.

D3x vouched for Generic town, and D3x was proven town. I am not so sure myself, but Generic's reactions up til now seemed pretty real to me.

I'm not voting yet. I'm not clear on who Nati's partner would be, but I want a better idea of that before I decide.

Sala, your constant gambits are making it very hard for anyone else to determine who is scum. You need other people to figure it out too or at least to believe you. So please, please stop it. At best, you're figuring out things for yourself that don't seem very believable to the townies that remain; at worst, you end up getting lynched for them. If you're scum, I guess it's okay. If you're town, just stop muddying the waters for everyone else. Your initial gambit caught Mirhawk, who flipped town. I'm not blaming you for that, I am saying your gambits aren't as reliable as you may think that they are.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I have a few questions now that I'm done being cheered up all weekend.

1. If Nati is a survivor (and note that whether I am scum or town, I wouldn't know if this were true, so it's alignment-neutral) then why are people assuming its 10-2-1? If THAT were the case, it would currently be 3-1-1, not 2-2-1. LLD flipped scum, remember? That would mean only one scum left. Isn't it more prudent to assume it's 9-3-1 IF Nati is a survivor?

2. I don't understand why Salamence is so certain that Nati's telling the truth. As I noted earlier, NEITHER scum nor town could know for sure that Nati is telling the truth. Demonstrating certainty without offering any real evidence looks artificial.

3. Generic, there is a great reason for scum to gambit as survivor at 3-2. They need just one mislynch to win. If we don't vote Nati, and she is scum, that takes one of the elements out of play. She can push anyone else other than her remaining scumbuddy. The most compelling reason for it is your reaction: you're treating her like conftown. Wouldn't that be highly desirable for scum in LYLO?

[Bookitty]

Is there any evidence we have a rolecop in this game? Are you claiming rolecop?

What are these billions of reasons you cite?

[Bookitty]

Okay. I want very much to trust you, Sala, as is probably evident.

How sure are you of RC town?

[Bookitty]

I kind of love you, Nati.

Thank you.

VOTE: Salamence

I can flavour claim too if it matters. But yeah, I'm town

[Bookitty]

You rock, Nati. I am sorry I thought you were scum.

[Bookitty]

Explain why you voted for Red Coyote, please, Generic?

[Bookitty]

I didn't play well as scum (replacing in) in Bitmap's game, Nati. The extremely slow pace of the game worked to drain the life out of everyone's play and I more or less won by default. If the game hadn't dragged on so long, you would have lynched me right away.

I also didn't get the "no reveal on death" thing. I think that was really hard for town to overcome.