Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[FourTrouble]

Vote: I have no creativity

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, what's the problem with Lissa's post?

[FourTrouble]

So... F-16, we gonna work together? I'm thinking Baboon, Fonz, and I have no creativity. Thoughts?

[FourTrouble]

I have no creativity -- fluff posts + humor is awkward + posts on pg. 1 looked contrived.
Fonz -- calling Lissa out but not committing was bullshit + he voted me.
Baboom -- don't remember, but there was something. I'm kinda drunk but I'll remember eventually.

[FourTrouble]

I'm in a PM with Baboon -- an "intern" PM of some sort -- and he said something about having caught scum already, and I thought it was bullshit.

[FourTrouble]

Does he?

I have nashville as probtown, atm
Borkdra as maybe town
Lissa and 5-off as probably town

as far as Fonz goes, I don't know a whole lot about him, but atm he looks townish though I need to see a little bit more from him to make anything concrete
FT and flubber are the weirdest for me, and I'm thinking that one (or both) are maybe scum

Everyone else I have no impression on at the moment, and I think that the scum would likely be found among those who have yet to post

This post, too. How does Fonz look town? Or Lissa? Or Nashville?
How do I look weird? I literally only posted a vote and a question -- relatively straight-forward question, too. The positions are too... stancy? If that makes sense.

[FourTrouble]

I'd like a response from Fonz to my question too.

[FourTrouble]

1v1? What's pro-town about that?

[FourTrouble]

I dunno, man. I'm drunk as fuck.

I didn't see a point to keeping the "intern PM" secret. We know -- or at least one of us was told -- that someone in the PM is scum. So keeping it secret gives the scum an information advantage, as far as I'm concerned. We can probably assume anything said there is going to be told to the mafia in their PM, so keeping just hurts town, if anything. At least that's my view.

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, what're you trying to do with the PM? How could it possibly help us find scum?

[FourTrouble]

I can't remember who, but someone in the PM said there was scum in there.

[FourTrouble]

We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.

[FourTrouble]

I can't tell if I'm talking to Tammy or F-16?

[FourTrouble]

Tammy's probably right. Anyway, what are your reads? We gotta combine forces here. I'm seriously paranoid of Baboon/Fonz right now.

[FourTrouble]

You're seriously paranoid of us because we liked one post he made?

Uh, not sure what you're talking about. I don't follow any of your reads, period. Nor do I see how your questions and responses carry town motivations.

[FourTrouble]

The reason I had a mild townread on Lissa earlier was because of neighbor things.

This. Lissa's excitement in the neighborhood was genuine.

[FourTrouble]

@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.

I considered that. Especially if he's town. Still, don't see any reason to trust the neighborhood PM.

[FourTrouble]

You're seriously paranoid of us because we liked one post he made?

Uh, not sure what you're talking about. I don't follow any of your reads, period. Nor do I see how your questions and responses carry town motivations.

Okay, try asking?

I kinda did. Earlier.

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, can you guys sign your posts too? I've played with both of you before but I'm not sure which post is which.

[FourTrouble]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, I question whether there is a thought process behind the reads. Lack of thought process = scum.

[FourTrouble]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

Do you really want to test me?

Tell me who I should lynch instead?

[FourTrouble]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

I don't have a read on them yet. Still thinking about it.
~ F-16

Consider: in the past few pages, they've just summarized shit and threatened me.

[FourTrouble]

Why did Flubbernugget move?

interactions with 5-off. their convo doesnt look like they are both in neigborhood otherwise it could of been saved for the hood

Very close reading. Very little analysis.

[FourTrouble]

I find your pretending not to know why I was townreading Lissa (while then proceeding to out the neighbors yourself) pretty disingenuous.

Pretending?

[FourTrouble]

Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)

I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true. Where's the evidence of that?

[FourTrouble]

I find your pretending not to know why I was townreading Lissa (while then proceeding to out the neighbors yourself) pretty disingenuous.

Pretending?

...You just agreed with me re: her being a townread...so what could possibly be the issue here...???
-Ceph

Your reasoning was presented after I asked about your read?

[FourTrouble]

Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)

I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true. Where's the evidence of that?

We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.

So... you're assuming I read her thoughts in the neighborhood? Fine. I still haven't read that part of the neighborhood, or I just don't remember reading it. But if you want to believe I "stole" the thoughts, fine. I can accept that. But, where's the evidence that I presented the thoughts as my own? Where did I say, "I came up with this thought"?

[FourTrouble]

F-16, thoughts on Baboon?

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, F-16, what do you make of the following:

and, as much as you are willing to push us for being the probable scum within the neighborhood, you very quickly back down from it, and decide to push someone who, generally is an easier target to get lynched.

I thought I had pushed I have no creativity prior to Baboon. So... I don't think I backed down from anything, did I? Which brings me to this:

also... the hidden omgus thing... it's legit, and the fact that you were scared to do a legit omgus, and tried to hide it with mashing us with fonz, a couple hours after I make it known that I think you have the potential to be scum is pretty amusing.

I'm scared? Or is that a narrative Baboon is building? I don't see how "fear" is read into my posts/behaviors? Is Baboon's narrative genuine or contrived? The argument that I'm afraid to OMGUS because I went after I have no creativity isn't very well thought out, right?

Also:

You question my 125 and you yourself, note that you havn't done much, whereas I have made my stances clear early game. Instead of asking people to work with me, I demand it to happen. I grab their attention and push the game forward, on my own voilition. You've done it as a reaction, and only as a reaction. lack of proactivity means a higher chance of you being scum.

Two things. First, I wasn't playing passively, or at least I thought I was active. Comparatively, I'm a lot more active than half the players in the game. I'm also not sure how "asking people to work with me" is passive or scummy? Second, is Baboon's analysis always this mechanical? The "I'm doing X, but you're not doing X, so you're probably scum" argument isn't very good.

[FourTrouble]

I mean, doesn't Baboon's reasoning for their vote boil down to, "FT stole my idea, plus he OMGUS'd me"?? I recognize I'm biased here, but I can't be totally off calling out Baboon's shitty/mechanical analysis, right?

[FourTrouble]

Did you take the info from off-5 at face value knowing that he has a tendency for gambiting?

I wasn't sure if he was telling the truth. Why?

[FourTrouble]

Rereading the game while sober. Still paranoid as hell about Baboon and Fonz. Not sure on I have no creativity. Still find their tone awkward -- especially the summarizing and the threats and understated "trolling" -- but I'm not sure what that means. Inexperienced Townies might, at least arguably, react awkwardly to people interrogating/voting them. Thoughts, anyone?

Honey's post resonates. I hope that guy is town.

[FourTrouble]

That's a really stupid limitation. We can definitely lynch outside the neighborhood.

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, why leave Fonz alone?

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, I haven't got a read on F-16 yet but discussing the game with him is the fastest way for me to figure out his motivations.

[FourTrouble]

I got active as soon as I got home last night. I won't be that active until I get home tonight. That's just how it goes.

[FourTrouble]

When 5-off said there was scum in the 'hood, did anyone say that their role PM didn't mention anything about that? If so, who did so first?

I said that, though I think someone else said it first. Why do you ask?

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, why is I have no creativity not in your scum pile?

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, why is I have no creativity not in your scum pile?

Anything to say to #274?

-b

Good point, though not conclusive. Like I said, I'm reevaluating IHNC, especially given their competence is lower than I initially thought (for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).

[FourTrouble]

How did you construe FT's vote as random?

I'm curious about this, too. If the vote was random, I would have just added it to the biggest wagon. The vote was not random.

[FourTrouble]

Like I said, I'm reevaluating IHNC

Anatole, why is I have no creativity not in your scum pile?

?
This looks like a leading question with the implication that he should be in said scum pile

-b

I was interested in Anatole's reasoning, since his scum pile consisted of people putting badly-reasoned votes on me, and Anatole's list of people putting badly-reasoned votes on me also included IHNC.
Also, wouldn't call the question leading. Leading would be, "shouldn't IHNC be in your scum pile?" or something like that.

[FourTrouble]

Or rather: "You think IHNC is scum?" -- that would be leading.

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, I understand your concern but it's misplaced. If you think about it, I'd be much more distrustful of 5-off if I were mafia and he town (i.e. I wouldn't trust a word he says about claims/setup). But as town, I didn't really think about whether he was lying as town. I considered the possibility he was scum but that was the extent of my distrust. If you think about it, that's arguably a town-tell on my part.

[FourTrouble]

The easy target thing is a salient point.

Just because someone is an easy target -- and apparently that's what I have no creativity is -- doesn't mean pushing the easy target is scummy. How is Baboon's easy target point salient?

[FourTrouble]

@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.

~ F-16 (I'll sign my posts if we're both online to avoid confusion)

F-16, what's the scum benefit to that sort of gambit? Town-cred? You know me well enough to know that I don't care about town-cred as either town or mafia, so there's certainly no personal motivation if that's the case.

Tammy, your recent post made me think of this. I didn't realize this at the time, but from what you just said, F-16 was thinking 5-Off was gambiting as town. But 5-Off interprets F-16's speculation to mean F-16 suspects him. Which suggests 5-Off is reading F-16's post from a non-town perspective.

[FourTrouble]

Given the lack of support for lynching I have no creativity, gonna see where this goes:

Vote: 5-Off

[FourTrouble]

I'm also waiting on someone to interrogate Baboon since they're ignoring my questions. Anyone willing to ask them my questions for me?

[FourTrouble]

F-16, you might have a point about Baboon. I've been focusing more on Mara's posts than Ceph. Ceph is taking more of a backseat, which I suppose could be a town-tell, relative to other games. Still, their analysis is so shitty, hard to believe competent scum would be so bad as town.

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, I understand your concern but it's misplaced. If you think about it, I'd be much more distrustful of 5-off if I were mafia and he town (i.e. I wouldn't trust a word he says about claims/setup). But as town, I didn't really think about whether he was lying as town. I considered the possibility he was scum but that was the extent of my distrust. If you think about it, that's arguably a town-tell on my part.

Why would you be more distrustful of him as scum than town? Also, are you scumreading him now?
~ F-16

As scum I'd be wary. Defensive. As town, I didn't think about it until later. Initially, I was more paranoid he was scum.

[FourTrouble]

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

Fonz, your facts and assumptions are wrong. Here are some issues/questions.

1. I never whined about you not answering my question. I noted that I wanted the question answered but I didn't ever cite your lack of answer thus far as a problem.

2. The question I asked Baboon -- why a certain behavior they called scummy was scummy -- was to get a better grasp on their alignment. The idea was to see how much depth there was to their reasoning. They're saying I plagiarized and therefore I'm scum. I'd expect town to have considered, at least briefly, whether plagiarizing is scummy. The question was to determine whether they considered that. Personally, I don't think plagiarizing is scummy, so I'd like to know how they're connecting that behavior with a higher probability that someone is scum. What's the inferential chain? You said this discussion would be "anti-town," right? How would it be anti-town? Is there some pro-scum effect that outweighs the insight to Baboon's alignment from their answer?

3. You're saying I'm scummy for "saying" I'm paranoid about Baboon and you, right? What would a paranoid townie do? Not saying anything? I don't see how this behavior -- being paranoid and telling others about that paranoia -- is scummy.

4. Initially, I didn't have a problem with your vote on me. It was only AFTER your post about Lissa, and in the CONTEXT of that post, that I took problem with your CONTINUED vote on me. So your "FT isn't considering motives behind my vote for him" is kinda irrelevant. What's relevant is your non-committal stance towards Lissa, while voting me for NO reason.

5. You're saying I'm scummy for providing a scumlist without reasons, right? But didn't you vote for me without proving any reasons? Don't town vote and provide scumlists without reasons all the time? Is there anything inherently scummy about that? What's the problem there?

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Baboon

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, have you considered the "actual town motive" or "potential scum motive" for giving a scumlist without reasons?

[FourTrouble]

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

[FourTrouble]

This is armchair meta and inherently not accurate, much less sheepable. Qualify this with some examples or I'm dismissing this as confbias. I'd like to hear from both FT and AK on that. I think meta has a place, but I am generally uncomfortable with people just skimming a one game and seeing the answer they want to see and deciding that's good enough. It's not.

I usually don't put much stock in meta either, but here's what stuck out to me just from skimming:

Either you're scum or you're the worst townie ever, either way, town can't survive while you

I have proof otherwise, we both do. If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!

This is Mara's first post in the game.

This is Mara's second post in the game:

God, seriously?

W/e, didnt really plan on doing much until jeesh slot got lynched

Which is about 700 posts later. And explicitly says she's not playing proactively.

But you're right, confbias is real, and I'm a terrible meta reader anyway, so definitely not a reason to sheep me. If you're gonna vote Baboon, I'd hope it's for better reasons than this.

[FourTrouble]

Ah, I misinterpreted. I was just taking a quick look, didn't investigate further, but Anatole's analysis seemed right from what I saw.

[FourTrouble]

I'd like to hear more from inactives... Flubber, Honey, Ree, etc.

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, what're your thoughts on Fonz?

[FourTrouble]

If he's town, he's going to get frustrated and think you're scum from it and probably not reassess.

Yes to frustrating. Though I wouldn't read 'em as scum because of that. It makes reassessment harder, since the whole point of asking them questions about their thought process is to better figure their alignment.

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, Cutty, what do you guys make of Baboon's "certainty" that I'm scum? How does their degree of certainty square with their reasoning?

[FourTrouble]

379 does have a towny tone.

[FourTrouble]

Degree of certainty should match up to the gamestate. If someone is more certain than they should be, something's wrong.

Baboon's certainty that I'm scum is excessively high for the gamestate/reasoning. Their approach to the game suggests that they'll read me as scum, regardless of what I do or say, probably for the rest of the game. That degree of certainty should be evaluated against their reasoning. Their reasoning was: OMGUS + reactive play + a belief that I stole their idea. I don't believe their certainty matches up to their reasoning. Think about it. How much weight would you give each point? OMGUS? I'd give it none. And Baboon are experienced enough to not give it much if any. Reactive play? Arguably more weight than OMGUS but still, not much. Stealing their idea? That's a tougher question. If they can link this behavior to scum -- show how this behavior makes it very probable that I'm scum -- then maybe their certainty is justified. They'd be wrong that I stole their idea, but I'd understand where their coming from. If they can't link that behavior to scum, which is what I believe based on my own inability to link the behavior to scum + their reaction when I asked them the question (refusal to answer), then their certainty doesn't match up to their reasoning. That's the problem I'm having with them.

[FourTrouble]

Fuck it, I'm gonna make a last go at explaining why Baboon should be lynched. I'll start with Baboon's shitty read on me:

We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.

The basis of Baboon's certainty that I'm scum. Baboon had suggested that scum might be lurking in the Intern PM a couple hours earlier. I hadn't seen Baboon's post yet because I hadn't taken a look at the Intern PM for a few hours.

(But even if I had, I don't see what the problem is. Assume I saw Baboon's post. What am I doing here? I'm taking Baboon's idea and using it as justification for revealing the existence of the Intern PM. My post isn't about the possibility that scum are lurking, it's an explanation for why I did what I did. Assuming I got the scum lurking idea from Baboon, wouldn't it make sense to say I was moved to do what I did because of Baboon?)

Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)

I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true.

Here, I clarify that I didn't see her post in the Intern PM. I also say that if she wants credit for the idea, she can have it. The last thing on my mind is credit for the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea. But I was intrigued by the idea that "stealing" the scum-lurking-in-the-Intern-PM idea was scummy, so I ask:

Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?

She refused to answer for a couple hundred posts. Now, she kinda answers with this:

I would highly doubt you would be able to understand where my mind is coming from, even if I were to explain it since you can't even seem to pick up why the basic reasons to why plagiarizing stuff I said, to increase your credibility all the while, attempting to decrease our credibility within the game is scummy as fuck.

Which is such bullshit for a number of reasons. First, I explicitly gave Baboon credit for the idea, so her claim that I'm trying to decrease her credibility is bullshit. Hell, I don't see how taking the scum-is-lurking idea even increases my credibility, much less decreases hers? She clearly posted the idea in the Intern PM before I posted in here. So what's the scum motivation for basing my behavior on that idea? What is the scum motivation for any of the posts I've just quoted. What is the scum motivaiton for 191? How does that post increase my credibility while decreased Baboon's credibility?

Which is bullshit. This post, right here, is how I know Baboon never considered the scum motivation for her shiny plagiarism argument. And I wish more people just saw how obvious this all is, but since most of you probably won't, I'm gonna help you guys out and explain. This is what's going on. Baboon is grabbing onto a shiny idea -- the mistaken notion that I stole her idea -- and is running with it. She clearly hasn't considered the scum motivation BEHIND this shiny point. If she had, she'd have noticed earlier that there isn't any. And she would have dropped that argument, along with her certainty that I'm scum. Butshe's just running with it as far as she can. Still running with it. Why does this mean Baboon is scum? Behold:

If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!

This is Baboon speaking as town. And what she's saying is that scum often do exactly what she's doing here. They find something shiny -- stealing someone's idea? -- and latch on without ever evaluating the "actual scum motivation." So, now with this post, we got Baboon (or Mara, same shit) telling us how she plays as scum and how she plays as town. Town means looking for scum motivations, not just the shiny surface-level behaviors. Scum means finding a shiny surface-level behavior, or in this case, misrepresentation (since I didn't even see her idea before using it), latching on, and disregarding whether the shiny object has any scum motivation underneath.

So please, F-16, Tammy, 5-Off, Cutty, fellow townies whoever you are, seriously interrogate Baboon's thought process. Is Baboon latching onto something shiny? Or is Baboon looking for actual scum motivation? And if you find yourself leaning towards the former of these options, for the love of God, do something about it. Please.

[FourTrouble]

Also waiting for people to realize that FT asked us to sign our posts, because he couldn't figure out who was posting when, and what but then, when F-16 talked to him about Cephrir, he was able to say that he was focusing on

my

posts and [/i]my[/i] reasons and focusing more on me, and able to realize that, even though he didn't know who was posting what to begin with.

Thanks for reminding me about this.
FT?

There were a few posts where I could tell and some where I couldn't. But that's beside the point. I started focusing on Mara after Ceph started signing his posts.

[FourTrouble]

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

[FourTrouble]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

[FourTrouble]

Also, Tammy, where the fuck is F-16? Because by now, he better be town-reading me.

[FourTrouble]

Lissa, two things. First, some clarification. Earlier in the game, I suspected IHNC and Baboon at the same time. I expected Baboon be harder to read, so IHNC was my vote, while I tried to discuss Baboon with F-16 (also intended to get at F-16's alignment, which is important for my sanity -- personally I think he's one of the most dangerous mafiosos around, though I may be the only one to say this). Then, while rereading the game, I noticed 5-Off's response to F-16's question. 5-Off interpreted F-16's question as an attack on alignment rather than an attack on playstyle. That was a problem, so I voted 5-Off, since keeping my vote on IHNC wasn't doing anything. When 5-Off started posting more, I liked what they were saying. Reread them again. Saw their questions to Flubber and Nashville, liked those. Around this time, Anatole was pushing Baboon, which I also liked. So I decided to go after Baboon, who I had suspected since much earlier. So there isn't really much "switching" here. There are many moments of rereading and reevaluating what's going on, but overall, I'm actually surprised by how consistent my reads have been this game. Anyway, hopefully that clears up what you're calling "odd."

Second thing, please read 531, 537, and 576. Please reconsider Baboon's alignment. And please tell me if, after reading those posts, you still think Baboon is town, and if town, why I'm wrong.

[FourTrouble]

Though I will admit I stopped reading it after the first paragraph, so if I was supposed to respond to something you should probably ask again.

Thanks for letting me know. Whatever I'm doing obviously isn't working. I'll go back to one-liners.

[FourTrouble]

There's like 3 lines of mafia theory in that post... most of it is analysis.

[FourTrouble]

I should have stuck to a one-liner like I would have in the past. Here's my new response, since you're not gonna read the wall:

The "certainty" argument I'm making doesn't have anything to do with Baboon's "intent" (lynching town, me); the scum-tell at issue is Baboon's lack of a thought process.

[FourTrouble]

Yes, I think you are wrong. You're saying Baboon is town. I'm saying they're not. You're saying they lack "scum intent." I'm saying the "scum intent" is lynching town (me). You're discounting the "certainty" point because they lack "scum intent." I'm saying you are giving too much weight to "scum intent." This is straight-forward. We disagree on Baboon's alignment. This disagreement stems, it seems, from the amount of weight you're giving to Baboon's seeming "lack of scum intent."

That doesn't mean I'm only interested in your thoughts as a reflection of mine. What I'd love to hear is how Baboon's thought process isn't contrived. I'd love to hear about that. That would actually address MY point. But you're not even addressing what I'm saying. You're giving me this bullshit, "they lack scum intent" response, as if that addresses the points I'm making. Which it doesn't.

I'm pissed off that you're responding this way. It's bullshit. I almost never write out that much shit, and when I do, it fucking sucks to have someone say, "I'm not reading what you wrote because the first 2 lines disagreed with me." No fucking shit they disagreed with you. That's the whole fucking point of making a wall. We disagree on a fundamental level, and I felt like engaging you on a deeper level. But obviously you don't want to do that, you haven't done that all game, and that's fucked up. You're not addressing any of the substantive points I've made, throughout the game. All you've done is skirt around what I'm saying.

I've actually addressed YOUR points directly. When you made a post about Baboon's tone, I agreed that their tone in one of those posts was towny. I gave attention and interest to the things YOU were saying. Have you done that? No. So fuck off with this "you're only interested in my thoughts as a reflection of yours" bullshit.

[FourTrouble]

Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

Yes, agreed. If Baboon is town, and if scum are egging Baboon on, those scum should die. Why do you think Baboon is town?

[FourTrouble]

F-16, I don't remember why I asked about Lissa. Probably wanted to compare their read to mine.

[FourTrouble]

I felt like Baboon was taking stances just for the sake of taking them. I was still figuring things out. I didn't have anything concrete yet. When they referred to the Intern PM, I felt somewhat better about them, since I could then understand where they were coming from on Lissa. I remembered her excitement there. I dunno what else to say about that. I was also substantially impaired that night from excessive alcohol consumption, which may have played a part in it.

Was 205 before they posted about Lissa in the Intern PM. I understood that read after they explained. I was more concerned with the others -- particularly Fonz and myself -- since I know I was town and suspected Fonz, both those weren't making sense.

[FourTrouble]

205 was after their post on Lissa, but I'm pretty sure I hadn't read their 203 yet. I wanted to see if their reads had any substance or if they were just taking stances, since you'll often see scum be too "stancy," as I said before.

[FourTrouble]

FourT:

your read (or 'read') on Cutty Shark, if you wouldn't mind?

Town. I liked his PT/QT point about IHNC, I understand the direction of his questioning, and his response when I skimmed Baboon's meta was dead on. There was one point I didn't understand, when he was questioning Anatole about his word choice (the "likely"/"definitely" issue), but that I don't think that was a huge deal. I trust him for now.

[FourTrouble]

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

[FourTrouble]

I'm townreading Baboon because Mara's conviction feels genuine. Tammy's also played quite a few games with Mara and has her as town based on meta. She also liked Post 301 as something Mara is unlikely to post as scum. Post 311 is another reason I'm townreading Baboon. If they are scum, it makes little sense for them to limit their mislynch options within the neighborhood. Here are two games with scum-Mara for comparison. I played in the second one and Tammy played in both. From what I remember from the one I played in, she doesn't have the same conviction and certainty when she is making pushes as scum. Compare with NY 169 where she spent quite a bit of time pushing me when we were both town and it came across as very genuine. I also feel that Mara often hides her real reasons and gives up surface level reasoning so she doesn't truly give away how she reads people. Also, what about Honeybee's Post 308 resonated?

re: Honey -- He agreed with me about Fonz and the neighborhood, and I could see what he was saying about 5-Off and Nashville. I was hoping to hear more from Honey but he's disappeared and that's not good.

re: 301 -- Why wouldn't scumMara post that?

re: 311 -- I disagree that scum wouldn't limit mislynches to the neighborhood. It would remove pressure on partners, so if you're confident you won't be lynched, you're making it very easy to kill town. We also don't know the ratio of town/scum, but the neighborhood might be a better ratio for the scum than the game itself.

re: Mara's scum meta -- I haven't read the two scum games yet. I might later but I'm terrible with meta analysis so I'm gonna just defer to you on this. What I noticed is that the games are from over a year ago, so even if they lacked certainty then, I don't think it's very conclusive evidence for their play in THIS game. Especially since that's a normal progression in developing one's scum game -- newer scum tend to lack certainty, then they overcompensate trying to fix that. So I don't think your meta analysis is applicable to this game.

re: Mara's town meta -- I started reading that town game but it's extremely long and, given how bad I am at meta, not the best use of my time. Are there any specific posts you can direct me to for your point (hiding reasoning and certainty)? If not, that's fine. I'll defer to you on this too.

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

I was addressing your concerns in general. Is there a specific post you want me to respond to?
~ F-16

The "certainty" point, in posts 531, 537, and 576. Your response seems to be, "Mara's certainty is genuine, plus she hides her reasoning as town." What is genuine about her certainty? Has she really put that much effort to get me lynched? Which posts are showing you genuine conviction? Also, do you think Mara is hiding her reasoning in this game? Or is her reasoning just very weak? Or are her stated reasons not her real reasons (i.e. they're "contrived" reasons)? Can you see what I'm getting at here? If someone hides their reasoning, how do you know the certainty is genuine? I'm very wary of calling certainty genuine unless it squares up with a thought process. The thought process doesn't even have to be THAT good but there needs to be one.

(for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).

Why?

F-16, you might have a point about Baboon. I've been focusing more on Mara's posts than Ceph. Ceph is taking more of a backseat, which I suppose could be a town-tell, relative to other games. Still, their analysis is so shitty, hard to believe competent scum would be so bad as town.

What do you think of my point that Mara often hides her real reasoning for her pushes? Also, I think Ceph strongly prefers scum to town and his scumgame is more developed and articulate.

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

What are those differences? Also, did you skim through the game links that I posted?

re: hydras -- I have no idea. I just realized it this game, but all the hydras I've played with have had at least one strong player.

re: Mara -- I commented on this briefly above but to go further into it, I don't see Mara hiding her reasoning here. She provided reasons. The problem was the lack of depth to those reasons, which made me think they were fake. If you're saying she's town but still articulating false reasons for suspecting me, that's strange. How do you distinguish between fake reasons from town and fake reasons from scum?

re: Timeshift -- I made an error when skimming that game. I just took a look at Mara's posts but it turns out Mara was in a hydra, and I was only seeing her posts that were a mistake and the ones from after she replaced in.

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

What did he say in the intern PM and which manipulative post in particular did it remind you of?

Can I quote from the Intern PM? Not sure what the rules are here but that'd be helpful to explain. There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You. The posts are different in approach but similar in how I felt in response (my immediate reaction to them was, "Baboon is 100% town," followed by, "wait, this is so fake, can't believe I got tricked by that").

[FourTrouble]

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.

[FourTrouble]

I expect anyone who sees a post to think 'Why would town do that? Why would scum?' There's a difference between expecting FourTrouble to see things the way I do and expecting FourTrouble to think about whether there's actually any reason to think that scum, in particular, would do that. He might disagree with me that declining to wagon Lissa there is the best town play. He should at least consider that I might believe that to be the case.

Why assume I didn't consider these things?

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, I never voted for you. Nor did I say you were "unwilling to vote." See below:

Fonz -- calling Lissa out but not committing was bullshit + he voted me.

You're consistently misreading things I've said, and saying I did things I never did. This isn't the first time this has happened. Any explanation for why you're doing that?

[FourTrouble]

Because you didn't in any way indicate you had considered those things, and if you had it's hard to see how you could possibly have still voted for me. The second one considers that, one notes there's really obvious town reasons for acting as I did, and no real scum advantage.

This is also untrue. I may not have explicitly indicated that I was considering what your motives were, but that doesn't mean I wasn't doing so. I tried to explain this before but I wasn't very clear, so I'll try again. The problem I had was not your lack of a vote for Lissa. It was the complete lack of any position at all. I was unable to discern a town motive behind that, especially in conjunction with your vote for me (lynching town is a clear scum motive). The other obvious scum motive here is not taking a position, which lets you go either direction, depending on what's popular later.

[FourTrouble]

The "don't vote newbies early" idea -- which apparently is something you've been saying elsewhere -- is not something I've heard before. The site where I used to play with F-16, the opposite was true: voting newbies first was standard operating procedure. The reason for that was because we didn't know anything about how they play, which means reading them will be harder. The idea was to pressure them early, since the chances they would respond naturally as scum was lower than for a veteran player. I don't agree with that reasoning, but that strain of thought exists.

I'm curious though, what's this "obvious town reason" for not voting a newbie? It's certainly not "obvious" to me.

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, assuming I'm town, who would you lynch?

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, why is Baboon a strong town-read?

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, what do you mean I'm trying to appease people? Which posts? I'm not doubting you think that but I'm curious what a coming off that way.

[FourTrouble]

I'm gonna be busy the next two days, so you're gonna see a drop on activity. To let you guys know where I'm at, Baboon is still scum though I can see the bits of "town" that is causing the town-reads. But I don't see them outweighing the problems. When I have time, going to be looking over Anatole/Nashville/IHNC. Of the players who have posted enough to read, they're the ones not pushing anything forard. I'm glad to see Cutty picking up on Anatole. I've been thinking of saying something but held off cause I didn't want to derail any hope of Baboon's lynch. But I've been concerned about Anatole's lack of conviction re: me or Baboon. He doesn't want to call me town but he wants to defend me + vote Baboon, who apparently he doesn't actually think is town. That might be a playstyle thing, not sure, but I could see him distancing/bussing Baboon. Or if Baboon is town, trying to create two central wagons on town (me and Baboon). I have to reread more carefully when I have time though. Nashville is null to me -- I understood what he was saying about Tammy though I don't agree with his analysis. I've noticed lack of comment on much outside Tammy, though they seem to think I'm town and Baboon is town. I like that, if Baboon is actually town, since scum would want to encourage both those wagons. On the other hand, his analysis is based on locating that desire in others, which arguably cuts the other way. Again, going to need to reread more carefully when I have a chance.

For the rest of folks, I agree with Fonz as probably town. I don't know Tammy as well as you guys (never seen her scumgame for comparison) but I'm working on my F-16 read, leaning town so far. Cutty is also probably town. Lissa, we all agree is town. Waiting on Flubber's replacement before making any PoE determinations there. Would also like to see more from Honey.

[FourTrouble]

I'll take a look at those posts when I get a chance, F-16.

[FourTrouble]

Sure. And why is Fonz town?

~ F-16

His question confirming Lissa, his question in 626, his concern re: my interaction with 5-Off (which is wrong but understandable), and 683 had town notes (specifically his read on IHNC, his hesitance to read you guys as town based on your competence as scum, which I also relate to, and his self-checking re: Honey). Obviously, not the strongest read, as there are things about him bothering me. He hasn't committed strongly to a lot of positions, but I can also understand that feeling, since I'm having a tough time getting strong reads on most players as well. The misreading and blurring things together bothered me for a second, but it really could come from town or scum, as it was probably unintentional, regardless of alignment.

[FourTrouble]

F-16, if not Baboon, who should we lynch?

[FourTrouble]

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You.

Actually, I'd like to know how exactly and from which posts in Tales of You, you felt manipulated by Ceph. You were townreading Fox/Hound before you flaked so I don't know what you are referring to.

~ F-16

The manipulation wasn't apparent until months after the game, when I saw the outcome and Fox was scum... I don't remember exactly why I town-read him there, but there were subtle things he did like faking conversations with his hydra partner, fake stuff like that. I also remember reading a couple of his games, and there stark were differences, like he was actively manipulating his meta. I don't remember exactly so I can't really answer your question. Hard to tell now, I just looked over the game and I can't help but find all his posts scummy, filled with fake emotions, etc.

By the way, I should have said this earlier, but I'm really sorry about leaving you mid-game, and also just my horrible play that game, one of my worst games, I never really had time to commit, knew finals were coming up, and should have just waited until I had time.

[FourTrouble]

FT is likely town. For the record, does FT even play when he's not town on mafiascum? On DDO he flakes as mafia/third party pretty much every game.

Do you have a link to one of those games?

Impossible because what he's saying isn't true. But even if it were, how is that relevant?

[FourTrouble]

Commentary on 5-Off:

F-16 is pinging heavily on my town radar.

Once he showed up his reasoning was akin to what I remember on DDO, but it's been a long time and his scum game may have gotten better since then. How good is F-16 at scum nowadays?

Tammy started pinging town as well but I dislike her recent interactions with Nashville, especially since I have a scumread on them.

I liked when she threw out her theory on Lissa/Fonz though, mostly because Fonz has been constantly in my head, but I haven't been able to figure out whether he's in my head for good reasons or bad. I'll ISO him tomorrow.

I bolded the part I don't like. The question about F-16's play is terrible. He's taking a popular position but opening the possibility that F-16/Tammy are scum. I also am having trouble buying the thing about liking Tammy because of her "theory on Lissa/Fonz," which makes little sense.

]For the record, does FT even play when he's not town on mafiascum?

I don't like this question, either. Again, he's saying I'm town but opening the possibility that I'm scum.

Baboon might be town, but I think he's more likely to be scum. I could be wrong though.

This repeats the same pattern above -- "X is likely town, but could be scum, and since I don't know how these players play, I could be wrong about everything." There is more emphasis on his uncertainty and what's

possible

rather than finding the scum.

Cutty was pretty heavily town until he claimed his character, somehow knowing that he was on Caesaro's (I think I got that right) list without being prompted. How did he know that?

This isn't why Cutty claimed his character. There wasn't any indication Cutty knew he was on Csar's list.

[FourTrouble]

F-16, pretty sure Lissa is referring to your post in combo with Ceph's post you edited out, where Ceph says my intent was to get Tammy paranoid. Which wasn't my intent at the time but I do hope it had that effect.

[FourTrouble]

I was about to start commenting on Honey's post as well, F-16. What're your thoughts on Honey? Gut is saying scum but I need to figure out why before voting.

[FourTrouble]

This is what's bothering me about Honey:

@ 5-off:
Why is day phase one useless? I get the sense that your posting is bidding your time which now makes sense, but I guess it's strange to me that a person who relies on gut would discount the first day (as people who usually do so rely on vc nk analysis, pr roles too). For reference, my gut is usually active very early before I even really think about the game.
Also, when is the time to start having reads?

5-off

seems

to have had not a lot of time for mafia too

I guess

?

Please

look at my questions to you when you get back. I haven't forgotten you.

The set of questions in 554 isn't going anywhere. Especially for someone emphasizing their gut, which has little to do with 5-Off's theory positions. The follow-up in 920 felt fake. With words like "seems" and "I guess" and "Please," it's like Honey is afraid of something. And I don't buy Honey actually wanting answers to those questions. What do they have to do with 5-Off's alignment?

My prob with Csareo is that I am

pretty sure

they're not new to mafia.. if they were I could excuse this behavior. Csareo, if you thought that you could determine the power roles from the flavor, then why were you trying to force a mass flavor claim and out them too?
From an outguessing the mod point of view, I'm having trouble placing where this info would be useful. I can tell you whichever game you played that the entire game could be solved by a flavor game was a poor decision on the mod's part.

This is bad on multiple levels -- (1) trying to outguess the mod; (2) words like "pretty sure," again afraid to take positions; and (3) extremely mechanical analysis of Csar's motivations.

As far as I can remember

, this is far away from your scum meta, so my feelings about you earlier are gone.

Again, this guys word-choice betrays fear -- stuff like "as far as I can remember."

[FourTrouble]

Good to know Tammy is on the same page. I think it's hard to pin down reasons because much of it has to do with Honey's phrasing/tone.

[FourTrouble]

Showing up once in a while and making a helpful-sounding wall full of analysis that isn't original or insightful.

~ F-16

This, too. Town sometimes do this but by-and-large this is what you see scum do.

[FourTrouble]

Honey Bee is giving me pretty similar vibes to Lissa.

Totally disagree on this. Lissa is very likely town. 919 should clear Lissa for good. I thought that explanation for her position on me was not only genuine but showed that she's reading the game from a town mindset.

[FourTrouble]

5-Off is wrong -- I have never replaced out of a game for being scum -- but I don't doubt he believes what he's saying. To anyone who cares:

Re: World Fair -- I told the mod that something came up and I could not play unless the game started after March 21. The mod chose to replace me and start the game instead of waiting until March 21.

Re: Transformers -- I never flaked or stopped posting. I played to my win-condition by making as few enemies as possible and surviving. I won that game as a Survivor.

This is irrelevant to my alignment here but I don't want anyone thinking I only play as town. That's a terrible reason to town-read me. Other than that, 5-Off's point is irrelevant.

[FourTrouble]

F-16, what do you think of 5-Off?

[FourTrouble]

That's not a town-tell for him.

[FourTrouble]

No.

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, what're your thoughts on Honey?

[FourTrouble]

Nash, have I played with either of you before?

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, why don't you think Lissa is town? What do you think of Lissa being the first to say her PM didn't mention scum in the neighborhood? Is Lissa competent enough to fake the depth of thought in 919? Try to explain your gut read, please.

[FourTrouble]

us
FT
Lissa
5-off (who is the one with the info)

Let me clear something up about this info:
5-Off said it was labelled as "rumors" that there was a "double agent." It wasn't a flat-out "there is definitely a scum intern."
And there is certainly still the possibility that he was gambiting.

Rereading to try and get better reads and see what else I need to respond to.

This is the post that gave me a scum vibe originally - I saw that and said "wow, if there's a scum intern this is probably her." Then I read Baboon, thought Baboon looked scummy too, then Lissa inexplicably has a townread on Baboon (though several people seem to now, so that doesn't mean a whole lot) and makes some really weak points to justify her RVS vote on 4t (basically just summarizing his posts - for example, her analysis for one of his posts saying Baboon doesn't seem town motivated is "scumreads baboon" as if that alone means anything to his alignment). She feels like she's going through the motions - townreading vocal players, scumreading easy targets, and just posting in a way that comes across as artificial and careful to me.

I don't see what's scummy about the post you quoted. Where are you now? Do you agree Lissa is town based on 919?

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, I would really like to know why you are townreading us with specifics.

~ F-16

Why ask this if you're town?

[FourTrouble]

IHNC's recent commentary suggests their vote should be on Anatole, not Nashville. Their votes don't match with their commentary, which is a problem.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, I would really like to know why you are townreading us with specifics.

~ F-16

Why ask this if you're town?

Are you kidding? The issue is not my affiliation but how and why Anatole developed that read with so much certainty so I can glean some insight into his alignment.

~ F-16

I understand but it just seems like a weird question to ask. When I'm town, I can't think of a time I questioned someone's town-read on me. When I'm scum, I'm much more likely to ask that question, since I know their reasoning will be wrong and have holes to pick at.

[FourTrouble]

Is there something about Anatole's read that makes you think it's based on "inside" knowledge of your alignment? I just don't see how that question will help determine Anatole's alignment.

[FourTrouble]

IHNC's recent commentary suggests their vote should be on Anatole, not Nashville. Their votes don't match with their commentary, which is a problem.

ya it should, but you know i have yet to hear more from beast, all the post have been by me.

apparently everyone know the other damn head of they hydra as well but me.

so ya my vote should be over theere but right now i dont give a fucking damn about it. i want to know who the damn hydra head is. if they think its amusing to crumb to half of the people who it is but leave other half out in the dark is amsuing good for them. the thign is it does not amuse me

so you can take your side commentray elsewhere

-ika

Bit too aggressive response here for a point IHNC recognizes is legitimate.

[FourTrouble]

Bit too aggressive response here for a point IHNC recognizes is legitimate.

Is that scummy?

Yes, fake emotion is scummy. Which is what that post felt like.

[FourTrouble]

Is there something about Anatole's read that makes you think it's based on "inside" knowledge of your alignment? I just don't see how that question will help determine Anatole's alignment.

I do. It was a strong town read given rather easily. I realize that this will sound like I'm never satisfied and maybe I'm not, but town reads given too easily freak me out just as much as scum reads over stupid things. Because scum do both. I'm an easy town read to give. I tend to get read town pretty early and I'm a bitch and half to lynch. In many instances, scum just call me town and night kill me after the more immediate threats or before. Scum sometimes pick at me or bait me for really stupid reasons mostly in order to cause a distraction because I scumhunt

omgus

scumreads on me. I also scumhunt town reads on me.

So yeah, figuring out whether or not he actually read me as town genuinely can tell us something about his alignment.

The problem with this is that scum already know who the town are, so they're gonna spot town-tells much more easily than the town will. So scum don't have to fake reasoning for their town-reads, and town obviously don't fake town-reads, so I'm not sure how you tell the difference between a scum town-read and a town town-read. I can understand your question but I don't see it doing much, and it strikes me as a minor scum-tell (more likely that scum would wonder why someone town-reads them than town).

[FourTrouble]

IHNC definitely overreacting...

[FourTrouble]

But anyway, don't you think you should see if they do this as town before declaring it a scumtell?

It's a general-tell based on the logic of who would ask the question. Town know they're town, so they wouldn't question why someone town-reads them, they would know it's because they are town and the person town-reading them either "knows" that or has figured it out. Either way, the reasoning is genuine/correct.

I haven't looked into their meta to see if they do this as town but I've seen F-16 do it as scum before during a "quickfire" game on a different site. Though I might check their meta on this cause it has definitely made me reconsider their alignment here.

[FourTrouble]

Have you picked up on any "fake emotions" from anyone else?

Baboon but I'm not gonna get into that.

[FourTrouble]

IHNC definitely overreacting...

What is taunting him supposed to accomplish? You have no experience with ika; you wouldn't be able to tell if his next "blow up" post (which you're clearly trying to make happen) is genuine ika rage or not.

True, I don't have experience with him, but I can easily check his meta for things like this.

[FourTrouble]

But anyway, don't you think you should see if they do this as town before declaring it a scumtell?

It's a general-tell based on the logic of who would ask the question. Town know they're town, so they wouldn't question why someone town-reads them, they would know it's because they are town and the person town-reading them either "knows" that or has figured it out. Either way, the reasoning is genuine/correct.

I haven't looked into their meta to see if they do this as town but I've seen F-16 do it as scum before during a "quickfire" game on a different site. Though I might check their meta on this cause it has definitely made me reconsider their alignment here.

LOL.

That's okay. Just ignore my answer to this question because one thing I LOVE is someone ignoring my answer and then telling me how to scumhunt!

I did not ignore your answer. I responded directly to it. Which you then replied to with your typical "don't tell me how to scumhunt" bullshit.

Your "I have nothing to learn, I'm already a perfect scumhunter" attitude is toxic. You can keep responding to all my posts that way but that won't get us anywhere. Engaging my argument, explaining why you disagree, pointing out why/how what you're doing is better, that would be more productive and would help us reach some common ground. I admit I still have a lot to learn but just dismissing everything I say instead of addressing its substance really isn't pro-town or helpful at all.

[FourTrouble]

I don't remember. The last time I played with you was a quickfire game where you were scum, and I distinctly remember you asking me that question. The question never stuck out much before that, but you're right, you might do it as town too. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk scum-tell -- just that logically-speaking, it makes more sense for scum to ask than town.

[FourTrouble]

I never said I'm perfect, I think I'm far from perfect and far from a perfect scumhunter, but every time you've asked me a question and I've given you an answer, your response has been essentially "you're not doing it right". That isn't trying to figure out what I'm thinking or why or engaging with me or why. That's you AGAIN telling me what I'm supposed to believe according to your concepts.

I consider your end of the interaction toxic.

You could have very easily asked me what I learned or thought I learned from my questions to Anatole, but you didn't. You decided to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing.

I asked you what you thought you could learn from the question to Anatole, you said you believed it could tell you something about his alignment because his read was strong, I then explained why I believed you wouldn't learn anything, and you then dismissed what I said with your typical "don't tell me how to scumhunt" argument. I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm explaining why I think the way I do, and I invite you to explain why I'm wrong. What's the problem here? I've tried engaging you multiple times this game to build some common understanding. How is any of that toxic?

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, if you recognize that you aren't perfect and there are still things you can learn, you're not gonna just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by saying "don't tell me how to scumhunt." You're not gonna stop reading their post 2 sentences in, just because that person is disagreeing with you. You're gonna consider their position, and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. There is a big difference between dismissing someone's position without consideration -- which is what you've been doing all game when I explain my positions to you -- and disagreeing with someone while providing an explanation for that disagreement -- which is what I've been doing all game.

[FourTrouble]

In fact, this is why I love playing with F-16. I learn a huge amount when I play with him, because I can actually discuss thing with him, and lots of times I'll change my positions because he'll explain why I'm wrong, and lots of times he'll come around to what I'm saying. There is a productive discussion because we both strive to continue improving.

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, how should I disagree with you? How can I tell you you're wrong when I think you're wrong?

[FourTrouble]

I don't remember that game but you might be right. That was probably a long time ago.

[FourTrouble]

Oh shit, I remember now. The logic was, scum wouldn't question town-reads on them because they want people to town-read them. I remember now. Fuck. That was ages ago.

[FourTrouble]

Dam, that must have been 2 years ago or so, right?

[FourTrouble]

Tammy, I can understand where F-16 and you are coming from with the "why do you think I'm town" question. I should have waited before commenting, to see where you went with it. Context makes all the difference. But I don't play much mafia these days, and I'm rusty and forgetful, and apparently a bad communicator too, so I fucked that up. But I don't think you guys are scum, and that's not why I said it's a minor scum-tell, though I still think the question isn't that helpful to determining alignment of good players, since they're gonna spot town-tells as scum. You can disagree with me here if you think I'm wrong, but at least in my experience, if I "know" someone is town, spotting their town-tells is much easier. Which is why I think scum have an easy time explaining their town-reads, and why I think the question theoretically doesn't help sort good players' alignments. Anyway. Regarding Anatole, I get what you're saying about his explanation being too "convenient," but at the same time, I'd expect better reasoning from him if he were scum. So it's hard to make much of his read + explanation. I also don't see why he'd lie about his actions in another game -- cause if he's scum, he's going through a lot of trouble to "fabricate" a read on you. It would be so much easier to just look for a couple posts with town-tells, andd point them out knowing that you're town and that he's not even making shit up.

[FourTrouble]

My concern about Csaero wasn't wholly based on finding that game, though that didn't help. What concerns me is that he has the potential for analysis, but he came in, did his thing and disappeared while posting onsite.

When you say he has the potential for analysis, wouldn't that imply that he can fake reasoning as scum, too? I feel like what he did was so over-the-top careless that he's gotta just be town.

[FourTrouble]

Yo FT
Questioning a townread is scummy, right?
How come you refuted 5-off's attempt to clear you for still being here?
(btw, I read one of the threads he linked, and you totally did disappear once someone quoted you saying that you replace out as scum)

Asking why someone thinks you're town is a minor scum-tell, taken alone. I'll stand by that. But refuting someone's attempt to clear you -- that's a town-tell, since it goes against scum's best interests. Those are two different things. What F-16/Tammy were doing -- at least arguably -- was refuting Anatole's town-read. I didn't wait long enough to find out, so I spoke too quickly. That was my bad.

Regarding that threat, I disappeared from the discussion cause I didn't feel like discussing the issue anymore. Those people think I flake as scum, and they're free to think that. Doesn't mean it's true. There is no evidence of that, and it's completely false. What happened is for a long time, I only replaced into games where I was certain the slot was town. So I got a reputation for only playing as town. Then World Fair happened, where I had to replace out before the game started because the mod refused to start the game a week late. I happened to get a scum role. People lynched me because I replaced out. And then the reputation that I replace out as scum became a thing. It's not actually true though.

[FourTrouble]

I feel like you're using the term "town tell" much more loosely than you should be. Same with scum tell maybe.

Yes, probably.

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Fonz

[FourTrouble]

Bastard mechanic or fuckup, Anatole and Baboon are town.
The scum are Fonz, Honey, and IHNC.

[FourTrouble]

If one of those three is town, last scum is Ree.

[FourTrouble]

I buy Anatole as town. If Baboon has the same role, regardless of mechanic or fuckup, they're town.

[FourTrouble]

Though apparently they have a different role. Which should have been obvious; they're in the Intern PM.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, if Baboon was also Maximilian, wouldn't they be confirmed town to you?

[FourTrouble]

Yes. Baboon is an INTERN.

[FourTrouble]

Tammy/F-16, will you guys help me lynch Fonz or Honey? Those are my picks for a lynch Today.

[FourTrouble]

IHNC, what is your position on Fonz and Honey?

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, if Anatole and Baboon had the same role PM, they can't be mafia. They don't have the same role PM, which nullifies that argument. Anatole is town. Baboon, not sure.

[FourTrouble]

IHNC, I'm not lynching Nashville Today. Why is Honey town? And why don't you help me pressure Fonz, if you think he's scum?

[FourTrouble]

Mafia members cannot have the same role PM. That would break the game. Especially with Csar's role.

[FourTrouble]

Yes, a mod fuckup in Csar's role doesn't say shit about anyone. I agree.

[FourTrouble]

IHNC, F-16 and I have both pointed out good reasons to suspect Honey. Take a look at those.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole became town over the past few pages. I particularly liked how he kept going after Lissa and his explanation for town-reading Tammy (explained this earlier).

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, I don't have an answer to your question re: IHNC. I wasn't trying to rile him up. I was just commenting on what I thought.

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, I don't have an answer to your question re: IHNC. I wasn't trying to rile him up. I was just commenting on what I thought.

This isn't riling him up?

NEVER CALL ME FUCKING EMOTIONS FAKE AGAIN.

you lucky im not at a point where im exploding at you yet. but another comment like that and its going to be 10 times worse

IHNC definitely overreacting...

Is it? I don't believe those emotions are genuine, regardless of his alignment.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole became town over the past few pages. I particularly liked how he kept going after Lissa and his explanation for town-reading Tammy (explained this earlier).

Can you quote it?

Just look at his ISO. He's been going after Lissa all game based on gut, and I think scum would have backed off. But town can't control their gut. And that's what I see happening here.

[FourTrouble]

For the brief moment that I thought Anatole and Baboon had the same role PM, based on Csar's claim.

[FourTrouble]

The mistake I had in mind was Nati giving Anatole and Baboon the same role PM.

[FourTrouble]

The meta-thing was a response to you saying I had no experience with ika, which I freely admitted. But I never said I was going to meta him. I said the emotions looked fake.

[FourTrouble]

The mistake I had in mind was Nati giving Anatole and Baboon the same role PM.

... so you didn't consider that it could have just been a mistake in Csareo's PM?
you didn't consider that they could have the same flavor but different roles?
you didn't consider that having the same Role PM would mean they're both interns?

Nope, didn't think it through.

[FourTrouble]

VOTE: Honey

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, assuming I'm town, who would you lynch and why?

[FourTrouble]

ffery, F-16/Tammy should be reading me town. We'd like to lynch Honey.

[FourTrouble]

Baboon, why'd you say Fonz is an acceptable lynch?

[FourTrouble]

I know I'm not interested in lynching: baboon, cutty, Ree, (Lisa - due to neighborhood read...I keep forgetting she's playing, fonz? - due to Bork thing, csareo - due to way he claimed his role stuff today, Anatole - thinking about being fine with giving him a night, fourtrouble -

we haven't settled our read there and falcon would hate to mislynch him

)

If I'm lynched, I want to make one thing clear -- this list of reads, especially the bolded part, clears F-16/Tammy.

[FourTrouble]

Nashville, why specifically is Honey town?

I'd like to know this as well.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, why'd you vote me?

[FourTrouble]

ffery, take a look at Honey's ISO. Also take a look at 971. And I believe F-16/Tammy gave some further reasoning somewhere as well.

[FourTrouble]

Anatole, I'd compromise on IHNC or Nash but Honey gives us our best shot at hitting scum, regardless of how much "information" the lynch provides. And you're wrong it wouldn't give much information. People have offered reasoned positions on Honey, so their lynch will be useful.

[FourTrouble]

Have you come around on Lissa?

[FourTrouble]

IHNC, please take another look at Honey. Town or scum? Why?

[FourTrouble]

Honey, what are your thoughts on Fonz?

[FourTrouble]

F-16/Tammy are 99% town.

[FourTrouble]

ffery, who do you want to lynch, based on what you've read so far?

[FourTrouble]

Why 5-Off?

[FourTrouble]

We really need a claim from the current leading wagon. I'm voting FT, torn between Honey (no town motive) and Nashville (horrendously crap arguments that I really hope are dishonest, because if honest, it signals horrible things about their intelligence) for second place. I will not lynch Csareo today under any circumstances. The case against them is one of the worst in the history of the site.

I agree that Csar shouldn't be lynched Today but I you're overstating how bad the Csar case is. I want to come back to Csar later. We agree on Honey so I'm hoping you'll move your vote there. I'm guessing if you're town, and I'm going back-and-forth on your alignment for a reason (will explain this more Tomorrow if I'm alive), you probably are hesitant on Honey because of how I'm pushing them? I don't see why else you haven't voted them yet other than your hard on for me.

[FourTrouble]

Not based on what I see of neighborhood stuff, really. I feel like he's played on the periphery, which doesn't make a lot of sense given the semi-informed townie role pm stuff.

I get playing on the periphery as a problem but why doesn't that make sense given his claimed role PM?