Mini 1630: Edgar Allan Poe uPick GAME OVER!

[copper223]

Hey fellows,

I really like the line-up, this promises to be a fun and active game

VOTE: Lynx Who are you?

[copper223]

@Lynx

LynxKuroneko (a hydra of )

Is this a typo then?

[copper223]

I also didn't find it and Kristal likely has a post restriction involving facial expressions, eyes in particular.

Lynx does seem pretty scummy though, did you roll Jester m'boy?

[copper223]

Only use body language?

[copper223]

copper, you drew scum again didn't you?

VOTE: copper

-TTH

No but I think you might have, it's just gut for now but that negative intro about giving no fucks pings me.

[copper223]

I also didn't find it and Kristal likely has a post restriction involving facial expressions, eyes in particular.

Lynx does seem pretty scummy though, did you roll Jester m'boy?

Let's talk about this for a second. Expound on the Lynx scumread.

-TTH

It's not a scumread, he seems to be trying to be scumread and I'm thinking about why he would do so.

He starts with: it's not OMGUS I promise (???), then an aTe about please stop voting me, then he hints PR with you will regret this and finally he avoids answering questions with random conments: I'm following the flow, he then went further with the PR hints.

He is either a very awkward scum player or something else is going on.

Policy lynch: you find it suspicious I'm trying to understand the setup? Lol. Why is Bookitty not suspicious as well?

I think Krystal is leaning town from her opening posts, the restriction means jack for her alignment and TTH should be the first to know it, this myth about restrictions being super powered PR's or scum is BS most of the time, so I'm judging her on what she says as you should, and meta reading lynx after what Ceph said was also my first reaction.

[copper223]

My lovely hydra partner just pointed out to me that kthx wasn't talking about lynx in the post I scumread him for, but about krystal bald. Luckily, copper is almost doing the exact same thing I was voting kthx for; discrediting lynx and blaming the wagon on lynx by asking if he drew jester.

VOTE: copper

I like medea.
-Tier

Unfortunately your correction is as bad as the initial post, as I am not advocating a lynx lynch for now and definitely not blaming his wagon as those on it have a good reason to be.

[copper223]

You play a lot with Mollie and that kind of intro is what I'd expect from Mollie scum, unfortunately I have no direct scum meta on you. Your vote on me because I said the player I started the RVS on seemed scummy and I did the same in lucky star is good enough at first glance and may bag you a town read or two if the average player checks it out, but the quality of the two reads and the replies from Lynx and Lia are very different, so no hun for now I don't like you because you are going for appearance over analysis.

[copper223]

How did you rule out him just being a a very awkward player just in general?

How are you not? I think he may be pretty awkward in general, but here you can clearly see he is leading us on, did you read 75?

And you know the post restriction is real... how?

I don't, I said it's not an element you should use to judge her alignment, what indicators do you have for telling me it's bullshit?

I have one that hints it is not, after I gave her a precise description of what her restriction is (facial expressions, especially eyes) she went ahead and used *nudges* which is neither of those, now if she is faking it don't you think she would have a strong incentive to conform to what is consistent with her prior posting and indirectly confirmed by me?

[copper223]

Right, and the reasons you give for that range from him being scum to him being Jester (?) but don't include him just being awkward. There's a closed-mindedness about that which is scummy.

He wants us to think he wants to get lynched, this is either a gambit as scum to make us think he is not or something to do with his win-con/utility of his role.

Once again read 75 and tell me that is not design, he is saying he is not going to invest in fake claiming Jester, then he claims some sort of miller and finally he says he is insane.

[copper223]

*Waves*

This was the first thing she posted. It clearly wasn't facial expressions, copper.

She is using facial expressions in the

post

, so don't be disingenuous TTH.

*Shakes head*

*Rolls eyes*

[copper223]

here you can clearly see he is leading us on,

But

why

is he leading us on? There are town reasons and scum reasons for it, and I can think of both.

Me too, that's why I said I'm not gunning for him yet (should I post a laughing robot as well now?). Read his scum qt's and the RVS part of the meta Ceph pointed out and come back to me with your thoughts.

She is using facial expressions in the post, so don't be disingenuous TTH.

Is it still a post restriction at that point? Wouldn't they be strictly and uniformly enforced?

That's a good question and I have no idea as that modifier does not exists in RL mafia, it's also besides the point though because saying game mechanics are inherently scum or town indicative is bad and you are the first who normally says so too, so what's up?

[copper223]

Show me the evidence

[copper223]

On why it seems likely a true restriction to me; I had that tell (which if your interpretation of post consistency is correct is weaker than I believed), the setup which is about being stuck in a mad world and fake's idea about the silence poem which I interpreted as she may have chosen something from the silence poem to submit when asked for the three Poe connections.

[copper223]

@Lynx
Fair enough, so what's the upside of lynching you for town?

[copper223]

I'm not sure it's worth it if it's just for that kingdom by the sea?

[copper223]

Fine I'll support you on this, the land of cats, Poe's grave and alien planets are all placed where it would be fun to roam.

[copper223]

@Lynx
Why did you claim that if an investigative PR checked you, "townread" players would lynch you tomorrow?

I'd like to be investigated tonight, if possible. Then I will be lynched by townread players.

[copper223]

@Lynx
Keep it for yourself and try to have more confidence in your game.

@TTH
What's your take now?

@Catastrophe
VOTE: Catastrophe

first to brake off the wagon on a more or less obvious town now and first to jump on the PL claim for town cred.

[copper223]

@FTL
I thought it was a bug but good observation, it seems Purloined Letter has no vote power and can't be voted off.

@Purloined
You started the game as a tree stump?

[copper223]

So if you want to explain why throwing out a disbelief of krystal's posting restriction is “understanding the setup” you can like do so? Because to me that's you accusing krystal of lying and giving an opinion, not any effort to "understand the setup" because that would also include receiving information, which I haven't seen you try to do. And before you accuse me of giving you preferential treatment I’m not liking anyone who’s doubting krystal’s post restriction right now. I don’t think krystal are scum, but I think the whole “oh yeah I don’t think they have a post restriction” is stupid because a) you’re accusing someone of lying which means a logical step in that progression is that they are scum but nobody as I’ve seen is actually scumreading krystal b) I have no idea why this doubt exists in the first place and nobody seems to be giving a reason why

I don't know why Ceph puts up with you.

My shallow observation was used to test Krystal's post restriction as I said to TTH already, I am also not disbeleaving Krystal, in fact I called TTH out for doing so without giving a reason myself and said it likely is a true restriction, and no matter if it is or not that's not how we should judge her alignment, so instead of accusing you of preferential treatment I'll call you out for not reading the thread before accusing people of things they didn't say.

[copper223]

Krystal was saying that she is waiting for CoA's reply.

[copper223]

She also called lynx town, that was her horizontal hand movement plus falling down and mouthing the letter o.

[copper223]

@FTL

Copper, how do you feel about your wagon/the people who have voted you?

-V

I'll answer this question in detail after the next round of posts from the players involved. I'd say it's likely there is 1 scum amongst them (lynx is town), it is not impossible that there are 2.

[copper223]

@Boo

@Catastrophe
first to brake off the wagon on a more or less obvious town now and first to jump on the PL claim for town cred.

Can you explain this a bit more? I only see one real post from Catastrophe so far and I don't see what you are seeing.

Sure Catastrophe's first post looks designed to accumulate town cred, being the first to hop on the PL is likely town train after he claims is one point, the other is they were the first to deviate from the wagon building on Lynx after his weird comments (designed to get him lynched), I find this frame of mind (that you want the rest of us to think of you as town) more scum than town indicative.

@Catastrophe:

@copper: What exactly is the "shallow observation" you're talking about in #160?

That's a reference to my comment about Krystal having a restriction that has to do with "facial expressions, particularly eyes".

@copper: Please explain the phrase "first to brake off the wagon on a more or less obvious town now" in post #142. Who is the obvious town you're talking about, how did we "brake off" the wagon and what is scummy about that?

It means you were the first do deviate from the wagon that was building on lynx and vote on someone else, the more or less obvious town is Lynx, you broke off in the sense that you chose to vote another player and it's potentially scummy because it gives me the impression, together with the rest of the post and what appears to be the state of mind behind it, that you were fishing for town cred and that you did not want to hop on a wagon you knew was on a town player.

[copper223]

@Catastrophe
I read lynx as more or less confirmed because starting the game with the idea of getting lynched, admitting you did so, still ask to get lynched and ask if you can reveal why is not something I see in the range of plays of Lynx scum, if you read his scum qt and how he describes himself in general, he is player conscious of being new to the game and thinking he is not very good, so it makes perfect sense to me that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to give town some sort of boon, while it's extremely unlikely he comes prepared with a risky gambit to confirm himself as scum.

[copper223]

@TSO
I like most of that readlist, of course I'm 10x more obvious town than you from where I'm sitting but probably there is a bias involved there, for both of us.

VOTE: CaskOfAmontillado

I did a quick search of Ktx and did not find the same D1 wagon fondness in other games, direct meta someone?

I'm waiting for a knowledge bomb from Medea and Cabd in particular.

[copper223]

@Ktx
This is a horror show

Lynx does seem pretty scummy though, did you roll Jester m'boy?

^this is why I'm voting copper. This is a hop onto the wagon that is serious with no good reasoning behind it.

How is asking someone if he is trying to get himself lynched hopping on a wagon? In fact as jester I would not want to lynch him

He starts with: it's not OMGUS I promise (???), then an aTe about please stop voting me, then he hints PR with you will regret this and finally he avoids answering questions with random conments: I'm following the flow, he then went further with the PR hints.

He is either a very awkward scum player or something else is going on.

^His reasoning behind it when asked about his comment

It all seems forced and fake and after looking into copper, it's pretty easy to see where

VOTE: copper

comes from.

Also, he's avoiding me and my vote like the plague to avoid an OMGUS.

What seems forced, I call bullshit on this, did you retroactively have to find a reason for why you voted?

Yeeees I totally tried to avoid voting you out of fear of people accusing me of OMGUS, I have played with TTH, the other player that voted for me first and which I recently just voted myself, and that 1v1 she went on where it seemed that her main focus was to make me look bad instead of trying to understand my alignment and now not answering this while being active elsewhere kind of reminds me of that SK game with nero I watched a week ago, in the mean time I said I was waiting for your explaination before commenting on your votes, adding that likely there is one and maybe two scum between you, and your answer is plain terrible, so VI or scum is my read on you.

Oh and this:

I did a quick search of Ktx and did not find the same D1 wagon fondness in other games, direct meta someone?

is straight up false. A quick search should have revealed my hate/disinterest in D1's (and more often than not D2's) and my flippant voting on such days.
Unless it's a strong town read of mine, I give 2 shits who get's lynched today.

I checked for wagon hopping by going through the mod vote counts in 2/3 of your early D1 town games and nowhere is the same behavior (join the biggest wagon) evident, if that's your D1 play in general it's pretty bad.

[copper223]

mod please prod CaskOfAmontillado

[copper223]

Yup Boo's town, can't really say much cause I'm waiting for CoA but I disagree with some thoughts though.

[copper223]

@TTH
You still think my opinion of Lynx was scum indicative?

How do you feel about the readlists?

[copper223]

Boo is very likely town because of this:

Consider my vote functionally on you; I don't know exactly how many votes you have at the moment, and I don't want to cut off discussion this early in the day.

We can accept that Lynx is town and lynch him anyway to get the greatest value from his after-death abilities. I lean toward this plan because I trust Lynx both to be town and to have the best idea of how his ability will work.

She did a very similar thing in Newbie 1551, this spirit of cooperation and trusting other fellow players would be very odd coming from scum, she could have done this to look like town but that would be kind of mean and she's a nice gal, so I think it's unlikely, not to mention the rest of her play, mainly the questioning of FTL about his role PM, also seems pro town.

[copper223]

@Lynx
While normally I hate backseat gaming (and that's also true for Boo) you have set up the rest of D1 so it's now basically pointless to scumhunt, unfortunately TTH is on V/LA and I don't know how to read stahr yet (his posts in isolation seem null/town to me), so it's time to share why you have done so.

[copper223]

Since by the time TTH comes back this is likely going to be a moot point I'll go ahead with it, as Brantz & co asked me about it.

I disagree with Boo's logic in 164, epsecially if Lynx is on the right track that the optimal play for town is to lynch him, starting as a tree stump for Purloined is no biggie, I have no clue about the rest of the setup so I'm definitely not prepared to clear them on this alone.

The fact they did not come out with it immediately is also no reason to call them town in my book, why hide it as town when you know it's coming out, I'd look for a way to solidly claim like Policy did and explain the way I want to play it. Furthermore that statement they made about Lynx being scummy but finding the people jumping onto it scummier really doesn't sit well with me, Lynx was being scummy on purpose, so naturally at RVS stage most players, regardless of alignment, are going to see that and may cast their vote there, either as a bait if they think he is doing it on purpose to catch scum on his wagon or because they think that akward comment makes him more likely to be mafia than average, it was one of the reasons for my early scumread on Tool (TSO's readlist changed that), so them saying it's particularly scum indicative people went on Lynx to me reveals a possible bias in their logic, because they may know that Lynx is town so of course with that information those people are actually objectively scummier.

I did not mention this because I'd expect TTH to jump up the chair for people trying to clear Purloined based on their role, this is also the reason why, although Brantz's readlist looked pretty solid to me in general, I don't have him as town yet, after saying he has Policy as almost sure town he actually put Purloined as his first town in his list.

Another fact that is making me unconfortable is the level of sheeping in those lists, I can see some of it coming from role claims, but almost everyone has me as null for instance, which is a strange read to have considering my amount of posting, and it all started with TSO saying I'm null cause he did not want to read me yet (probably because of inherent OMGUS bias), which is an individual read that should not affect anyone else, so I think it is possible you all have one infiltrator in your town circle and one scum sheeping those readlists, which is making me think about FTL again, because while I can sympatize with the logic about the PM, if you're a decent scumplayer, and as a hydra you have two heads to think about it, you can catch that and use it to your advantage.

[copper223]

I would think starting as a tree stump as scum would be horribly debilitating.

How balanced it is depends on what happens when they can revert back and what other roles we are dealing with, it is also something that may lead town to incorrectly automatically read them as town which would be excellent for the scumteam.

I see the scum motivation for claiming early and persuading people, depending on execution it's a possible good play because town also has an incentive to do it as well, the fact they chose not to doesn't mean they are town.

[copper223]

@TTH
Finish reading and we can talk about it

[copper223]

@TTH
I say the fact she is not as paranoid about me as usual was why I was not townreading her before but her lynx endorsment is very close to her usual town game.

What do you have against her?

[copper223]

@TTH
Nope, I did meta her more than once however.

I'll sleep on it but her back and forth between should we lynch Lynx or should we keep him alive also doesn't look like scum, the "erroneous conclusion" is based on her letting lynx play as he wants to play and I can tell you for sure that is not scum indicative for Boo, for the rest idk.

[copper223]

VOTE: kthxbye
I disagree with CoA on Boo but don't think they are likely scum anymore. If lynx can talk after death it would be a good solution.

Medea needs to post something meaningful.

[copper223]

@Krystal
You have a fence/leaning scum on Lynx? Can you explain that read in more detail?

[copper223]

@Boo
Lynx also has the other ability (which he considered negative...), which sthar8 calls self watcher, that tells him who targeted him during the night, assuming it works with faction kills, if scum targets him he can tell us.

[copper223]

Gatho's also seems pretty town but the vote ability on purloined was already tested (there's a votecount with a vote on him but 0 sctually counted).

[copper223]

phone posting

[copper223]

Because lynching me D1 (or as early as possible seems to be the best use of my ability. As far aa negative utility, I'm not Miller, I can see what power role is used on me at night. Which is... nice? I'd just rather give town a fantastic reconnaisance opportunity through this lynch.

[copper223]

He claims he has 2 abilities, one always active at night and one he can activate by getting lynched.

[copper223]

Sure, but sthar8 was arguing for letting him live and use this to either trade or get a 1 for 1, imo you should all separate the moral question about supporting others from the alignment of said players, that's more of a playstile indicator.

[copper223]

Fine Lynx, hope you know what you are doing.

VOTE: Lynx

[copper223]

I still think that catch-up from kthxbye was ridiculously scummy btw.

[copper223]

Agreeing with everything I said but not updating his reads in any way, that nonsense about being really hurt about Krystal scumreading him which reads fake by itself and then he flips it around in the next post with the self conscious "I don't really care mate, you are just a town read of mine and we should work together", he is also trying too hard to stick to his I give no fucks D1 meta by constantly repeating he will lynch anything that moves other than his town reads.

[copper223]

I'd rather you neighborized Lynx anyway.

[copper223]

@Boo
No, I'd rather lynch Lynx in the way he wants to and for gatho to neighborize him as well, gatho claims he is a neighborizer

of the dead

, I think that's what is creating your confusion.

[copper223]

Well that's my suggestion given the information I believe I have and because I'd like to make sure we get the best out of Lynx's play, it's up to Ghato to decide if I'm wrong or the suggestion has merit.

[copper223]

<3 Anyone else have thoughts on this?

- Gatho and Policy for sure.

- Boo and Catastrophe most likely

- One of CoA and FTL

- Self vote.

[copper223]

@Tier
She is saying she doesn't want to lynch Lynx because she thinks he is town, the finger moving is making a horizontal line, the falling a vertical one (she is drawing the letter T), then she mouths an O so

to

wn.

Krystal has since changed her read on Lynx to fence leaning scum (which I want to her about).

Can you explain your logic for thinking the players that jumped on the Lynx RVS wagon, FTL and Kthxbye, are scummier than Lynx himself?

[copper223]

Why would Lynx not be an excellent spot for town to votepark?

Reviewing it I'm not so sure about my initial Krystal interpretation, I think she rather meant we should let him activate his secondary ability (by lynching him) as he asked us to so he can tell us something after he dies.

[copper223]

I think the claim from Kthxbye is genuine and Lynx should consider adding him to his wagon, will censor the rest

[copper223]

Lynx has a power post-lynch, not post-NK. I see little value in neighbourising him, because I for one don't believe he is that much of a boon to town, seeing his complete lack of input atm.

Since you see very little this is more of a diss on your play than his.

[copper223]

@Boo
I'm sure it would still naturally work without it but when you are basing your lynch on a play that is going to most likely kill 2 townies come tomorrow, in an unkown setup, redundancy or even the appearance of redundancy is a good thing, as the promotor of the play having Lynx's imputs on the results may also come in handy.

[copper223]

@Boo
I agree with the conclusion.

@Cat
That's a problem inherent with Ghato's role and not with Lynx's, Ghato could only lie about Lynx's observations on the results, not on the actual results themselves as Lynx can also independently confirm those from what he claims, and Ghato could also lie about what Policy or anyone else tells them so the alignment of Ghato is irrelevant when making suggestions on who to neighborize.

I think Boo also makes a good case for why Ghato is unlikely to be scum here, I may add that Ghato supporting Lynx the way he is doing doesn't make sense as scum.

[copper223]

@Lynx
If you can't get them to follow your play before the 72hrs mark I'll go ahead and explain why I think it should be done.

[copper223]

BRantz I don't like, Policy Lynch is a good substitute, I'd go with Kthxbye over FTL.

[copper223]

Also Krystal had you as null leaning scum which I would like a reply to.

[copper223]

copper wants to lynch full flips. Hmmm, who'd wanna do that? Oh yeah, scum.

What does this even mean?

[copper223]

So my vote on Lynx was out of RVS, because I wanted to know who were the members of his hydra(turned out to be a typo), after Lynx tried to get himself lynched I was the first to wander what was going on and that post you quote is me voicing my thoughts.

As for the second and third quotes, there are no contradictions, I prefer to have you rather than FTL on the wagon because I think you are town, so I've forgotten nothing.

Though I will say if scum NK's this guy I will personally promise to not scumread any of them for the next 2 D1 games I get with any of them, pretty please (this is a joke).

[copper223]

Also, I think your claim is genuine because it's the kind of play to be expected from a VI.

[copper223]

UNVOTE:
Terrible read.

[copper223]

Nobody should read your previous posts as they are complete tosh, no idea about the future.

I don't know about Tier, on one side Boo, a townread of mine thinks he is town and there seems to be some sort of role interaction there, on the other I think he coasted till a few pages back because he was unvotable and that seems more scum indicative, I would not put him on the wagon but I can see why some might want to.

[copper223]

Fine guys, Lynx is not getting the necessary support and after all the hints he has dropped this must be the play for today as far as I'm concerned so here's how I'm reading it.

Lynx is hinting at being a self watcher at night and

a self sensor if lynched

.

This means, he can tell us how many scumplayers were on his lynch today, realistically this means we have a pretty good shot at narrowing down most of the scumteam in the 4 remaning slots by chosing only the players we think are town to go on the wagon.

Now discuss.

@Catastrophe
I don't see most of the scum motivation for Kthxbye to claim as he did, I see him thinking to himself as town that if he claims someone will stop ignoring his scumread and he can get me lynched, this is compatible with his personality from what I've read of him.

[copper223]

@Boo
Lynx asked me to unvote him because he liked Kthxbye's arguments

[copper223]

Weren't you unwilling to hop on the wagon FTL? I think only

approved

players should be allowed to vote for Lynx.

[copper223]

Fair enough, but why the change of heart?

[copper223]

@Tier

Nobody should read your previous posts as they are complete tosh, no idea about the future.

I don't know about Tier, on one side Boo, a townread of mine thinks he is town and there seems to be some sort of role interaction there, on the other I think he coasted till a few pages back because he was unvotable and that seems more scum indicative, I would not put him on the wagon but I can see why some might want to.

Why do you suggest my unvotable thing has anything to do with the fact that I was doing nothing proactive?

I don't know that two are connected but I think they might be.

[copper223]

VOTE: Lynx

[copper223]

I like those two + Ghato

[copper223]

@Ceph
I'll keep in mind that Ghato could be playing the long con but for now they look town to me.

[copper223]

@All
She has a point that players should not be allowed to decide if they vote or not (otherwise scum can separate for the best outcome), but random makes it very likely we get a 2-1 split, assuming a 3-man scumteam which is standard for the number of players, something we do not want to get.

I think letting Lynx chose his townreads is fine.

[copper223]

@Lynx
I agree with Tier here, this only works if you make your own choices as the best we have for a confirmed town sided player.

I think Boo is town but I noticed there are a lot of connections with her and Policy, her and Ghato, her and Tier, her and FTL... so a wrong read there would change a lot.

Listen to what CoA has to say first, maybe they are scum but if they aren't, TTH usually has good reads and is always worth listening to.

[copper223]

@Boo
Those connections are partially a mental map of how I got my reads, and how a wrong read on you may change some others, I would be leaning fense/scum on Tier and possibly FTL without your interactions and I would probably have a weaker town read on Ghato.

I am also not a fan of CoA in this game, I can see TTH being especially paranoid about me as town as well and that's why I'm not scumreading her more heavily, but the point I am making is that Lynx should not let a faction (spearheaded by you in this case) dictate the people on his wagon, otherwise TTH's point about scum interference becomes relevant again.

[copper223]

@Lynx

In order: Copper/Policy Lynch/Ghatokaca/Catastrophe/Bookitty/Kthxbye/Krystal Bald

[copper223]

@Brantz
I don't know if he can be sensored in the first place so I'd rather keep him off of it instead of trying to figure out post results if he should be considered.

[copper223]

If you are not sure if it gets counted better leave him out rather than corrupt the results, clearing people based on their claimed roles is a bad idea.

I was checking the literature about the conquering worm from Kthxbye but I don't find anything particularly alignment indicative, poe experts?

[copper223]

So you think Kthx is town?

[copper223]

It seems outlandish to me to fakeclaim as Kthxbye did there, it's probably his real role.

As I said I'm not a fan of clearing people based on roles, but for their motives it's a different story and Kthx seems like the kind of player that would use his perceived immunity to try and get a scumread of his lynched.

Boo can you link me the OMGUS game with him you mentioned?

[copper223]

@Cat
Because Kthx doesn't know if there is a way to check if his claim is real at this point, so it's even more of a gamble for scum to fakeclaim, and what's the upside? I agree it's OMGUS, but is that a scumtell for him?

[copper223]

Thx

[copper223]

I'm pretty sure Cata is town as well. To me BRantz and FTL are the question marks.

[copper223]

At the very least this will be a good teat whether town is being run by goons or if they are getting isolated.

[copper223]

lol test

[copper223]

<3

[copper223]

I don't follow exactly, you mean everyone?

UNVOTE:

[copper223]

@Sthar
Votepark before anything more meaningful happens, trying to make it sounds it's particularly alignment indicative that some players jumped on the first weird comment (which we now know was made on purpose) a player made at RVS, like Purloined did at the time, seems questionable to me.

[copper223]

@Sthar

Tier said that his logic for why he called FTL and Kthx particularly scummy at RVS, was because Lynx was an excellent place to votepark as scum (now let's just say cast their first vote to avoid confusion with terminology instead of votepark), I disagree because to me anyone seeing a player doing what Lynx did would find it an excellent place to start voting (thinking as town, what is this guy doing, let's give him some rope to see if he hangs or if there is a method behind the apparent madness or as scum, nice possible mislynch nr1 incomimg with 0 risk for me as this is RVS) so trying to force a scumread there makes very little sense.

I can see scum starting the game knowing Lynx was town (and playing scummy) saying that those players jumping on him are scummy because they know it's a bad push, it's also why I'm not fond of your start.

[copper223]

@CoA
If that is what Tier ment, he gave those two poor blokes very little time to scumhunt before calling them out.

The parallel is you also championed Lynx town when it was strange to do so, as for what Lynx did he told us himself he planned to get himself lynched then realized that was the wrong way to go about it so there is not much to speculate to be made there.

I like the read you gave on the ghato safeclaim.

[copper223]

@CoA

A roadmap to victory. Don't be scared. It'll all make sense once I pass the threshold.

Telling us lynching him is the way to go

I wasn't sure how to convey my desire to be lynched.

I do feel its the best course of action though. We can socialize some more til then and see what the quiet people have to offer.

I also stated my negative utility.

Explaining what he was doing

I had a thought process that I realized was stupid so I decided to start being more direct..

When asked about his previous post and the "townread" business you mentioned by me, clearly getting lynched was his gameplan and then he reconsidered and decided to be more direct about it (by claiming).

As for you guys, that post from TTH where she accuses me of being scum for close mindedness, because I'm considering scum Lynx or town Lynx that wants us to lynch him, but excluding just awkward town Lynx making supposedly dumb comments inadvertedly.

[copper223]

@TTH
Lol, I am coming around a bit though, Boo's reads were also partially OMGUS driven and she did buddy up hard to her town reads in our town game as well, but that "notice the CoA Copper connection" comment she made doesn't really make sense if she has such a solid townread on me as she keeps telling you.

Why did you change your mind on TSO?

[copper223]

Why is not Ghato Boo a thing for you?

[copper223]

@CoA
What Lynx said about getting scum to vote for him, that "you will regret getting me lynched" was part of his strategy to get himself lynched, I don't think there was another meaning intended.

I don't buy the reaction test, TTH was calling me scum there.

@Tier
Purloined said those jumping on Lynx are far scummier than Lynx himself, those players are FTL and Kthxbye.

@Boo
I've been wishy-washy in the sense that my read on CoA has ranged from scum to null, I don't want to write off an asset like TTH (Sthar seems good too) unless I am really convinced they are scum because I've seen the benefits for town she can bring, it's a fair point though. Being conciliatory if that's what I'm doing is not a scumtell for me, I think I was equally open in 1551.

Your objections are valid but the speed with which you changed your read on me from yesterday is a bit worrisome, I still think Boo is likely town and I like the case on CoA you made.

[copper223]

@Boo
Sure I get it, in fact the missing paranoia at the start had me a bit worried, but that is also clear to me now.

Saying a player did not make an impression is relative to the reader, it's not up to BRantz to impress CoA so if it's an insult, which I don't believe it is, it's more a self insult on CoA for being unable to read anything out of BRantz, Tier saying Lynx is a weak player so he should not be neighborized, when he did not have much of a clue about what Lynx was doing in the first place, just annoyed me, both facts are not really alignment indicative though, the reasons why I'm giving special care to Tier are:

- His opener suggests he knows more about Lynx than he should have (same problem I have with CoA).

- He coasted during mid D1 and received unjustified (in my opinion) townreads based on his role from numerous people, I'm always suspicious of people getting townreads like this because it may come from scum thinking of getting easy towncred if he is town (cause it looks obvious to them when it's not that he's actually is town) or from scum pushing a buddy in the town circle, I don't see much of a motive for town to do so other than being obtuse (which tbf happens more often than you'd wish) or maybe having a better understanding of ffery's setups as mod and making a more educated guess than I can.

- Once people started to call him out for it his activity level changed substantially but the questions he was asking implied he wasn't thinking too deeply about what was going on and he kind of role fished on Lynx before commiting to the lynch amd trying to push his vote on the wagon.

I'll give you the CoA quotes as soon as I'm close to a pc, I think I explained my shifts when they happened if you want to ISO me im the mean time.

[copper223]

@Boo

Hello everyone I know. I would list you out, but I'm afraid

I don't give the requisite number of fucks to do so right now.

-TTH

Gut scumread.

How did you rule out him just being a a very awkward player just in general?

Because you know he likely is based on knowing his alignment and haven't caught up yet on the fact he wants to get lynched?

This isn't my argument. I think they're faking the "mechanic."

Unsubstantiated accusation.

More of a scumread. What Ceph. said in 126 about most of our interaction at the time is similar to my take on it as well, with the caveat that TTH might have been paranoid/pissed about/with me because of previous history.

I'm now on page 7 and I think there's an excellent chance of Bookitty being scum.

-TTH

Less of a scumread because I was expecting this after Boo wrote 164, the fact I mentioned it before TTH's catch-up blunts this.

Ghato offering to be the gatekeeper of information on a power role is not a towntell. If Lynx cannot reliably communicate after death, Ghato's claim is a safe fakeclaim and potentially a source of misinformation for the town. If Lynx's info is made public, Ghato-scum is buying townpoints for the price of manufacturing fake lynx-reads once per day. Lynx is conftown, all other conclusions here are fatally flawed. This is a bad post.

Less of a scumread, if Sthar is scum this is a nice read to throw out there because it neatly debunks Boo's theory of why Ghato is likely town based on his claim, I had not thought about it but it makes it slightly more likely Boo is clearing people unduly (either cause they're mates or cause she knows they are town to begin with), in an unrelated note it also makes it unlikely Ghato and CoA are both scum.

Less of a scumread after reading Boo's

So when we're looking at connections, this is one I want people to notice, please.

because I didn't see how she would think of me and CoA as a scumpair, when she explained what she ment in 598 (about being wishy-washy in particular) this makes more sense but at the time I did not see it.

595 helps me read Boo as more town, so that influences my read on CoA, as Ghato said one bad push on someone they were already likely paranoid about I can accept, but if they're getting it wrong repeatedly it's likely they are doing this because of their alignment.

Reviewing the ISO overall I get some very mild scumtells on Sthar (mainly after reading some of Policy/Ceph's replies) and some town tells from him, I get more scumtells on TTH and she is the one I should know how to read better, so that's why I'm leaning scum on themo overall.

Boo, why doesn't the hydra dissonance tell you used on Policy apply here? It seems to me Sthar and TTH are not really on the same page.

[copper223]

578 and 579 are also good enought to raise some doubt and the first is unanswered.

[copper223]

@Boo
Fair enough about keeping the read to yourself and it being now watered down.

I see a pretty big difference in TSO (Catastrophe), Sthar claimed TTH had him as town at one point but he wasn't sure before and now they are both scumreading him, TTH says she is leaving that read to Sthar, and he isn't seeing him as town so he must be scum (pretty uninspired read).

I see some difference in their read on me, from what I gather Sthar had me as roughly null to begin with and leaning town after he did the work himself, I do not believe what he said about TTH reaction testing me (so either he did not understand TTH's motives or he is lying about it so they can backpedal).

Do you see where I might have doubts about you because you gave away quite a few town reads (assuming genuine motives in an attempt to help town) based on role mechanics or PM tells (FTL/Tier/Ghato) which is something scum might also do?

You have addressed your scumread on CoA and we can't really say much about Medea (I agree with both of you, from experience Cabd is lurky but when he posts you can get a lot from it, the content in this game from them has been abysmal), it's more the let's make a big town circle part so everyone loves me which holds some weight.

[copper223]

@Tier

Bah, are you using the beetlejuice tell on me?

I've seen it work but not in particular, it's more about you sitting back and collecting townreads for no reason after having what I believe to be a suspect early game, you called those that gave you a town read for your role fools, I'd ask myself if they are scum in your position, where's your suspicion about them attempting to pocket you?

[copper223]

@Boo
If I had seen deviations from our newbie game I'd have said so, I think the place where I'm getting my townread on you is pretty obvious, I also said so myself more than once.

In this particular game you are townreading some players for reasons I don't approve of and that's all I've got for the Boo is scum hypothesis, it's the one I've considered more lately because if you are town with me here, then so are most likely Ghato, Tier and possibly even BRantz, so together with the play Lynx made and Policy's claim this game is a cakewalk, it therefore behoves me to carefully consider the case where I'm screwing up with my reads as well.

I'll check to see if I missed something in Tier's ISO.

[copper223]

That's neither here nor there, what I'm considering are possible motives for including people in your town circle for what I consider weak reasons, one possible motive is you genuinely thought it was good logic and missed something, another is you want most of town to like you because of OMGUR and so you can help your scumbuddies by pushing them in the town circle.

[copper223]

I did say so at the time, once with a delay to see if TTH mentioned it first, which BRantz tried to fish, FTL (read has now changed), Tier (obviously), Ghato (I agreed with you unitl Policy and Sthar8 pointed out the flaws).

I would have a stronger read on Ghato, Tier and BRantz not because I'd sheep you (where is that implied?), but because that would confirm some things about their play that would make me personally read them as town, just the fact CoA is very likely scum in this scenario is a big enough reason to townread them.

[copper223]

Depends on why you townread them, I already told you m main concerns about you, that post is for Boo.

[copper223]

By all means go ahead.

[copper223]

That is simplistic, it depends on how you are being wrong and how you usually play as town, TTH pushing mostly bad logic on 2 players like that makes her very likely scum because when she is town even her cases on town make sense when you don't know a player's alignment, I've used that as scum for instance, and she is pretty damn accurate to boot, so yes if you flip town I'd lynch CoA in a heartbeat.

[copper223]

@Lynx

- Copper: my behavior regarding your play today should tell you what I rolled.

- Policy: the way the came out and everything they have done today points at town.

- Boo: leaving conspiracy theories aside, she is town becuase of personal meta, scumhunting and seeming generally pro town.

- Catastrophe: personal read on Tool I can't go into, TSO's readlist is townie.

- Ghato: while some have raised suspicion about them, in isolation I can only say that their play looks town to me, especially if Boo's town then their push on CoA and the reasons they gave make a lot of sense from town_Ghato.

- BRantz: If we are going with the Boo and friends (which is the most likely world) I want all of them on the wagon.

- Kthxbye: I believe in the claim because it's compatible with my idea of how he plays.

[copper223]

+1

[copper223]

i know that sounds hypocritical but i dont want to be voting lynx.

[copper223]

@Tier

- 1. I don't think I can explain that read more, let both arguments stand and pick the one you all think is more likely.

- 2. Your reaction to getting suspect townreads, sitting there without questioning much until someone else brought it up, and your knee-jerk reaction of calling these people foolish, is what is potentially scum indicative for you

- 3. Same as 1.

@CoA
I know for a fact you are wrong sometimes, it's the quality of the cases I am questioning. If it was caused by a time constraint it should be easy to correct.

[copper223]

@Tier
Ninja: I was just going to.

@FTL
You forgot or intentionally left out a read on me (most prolific poster) and the list you gave would not lynch Lynx as Tier's vote is powerless.

[copper223]

@FTL
We don't know if he will be sensored, we know for sure he will not be counted, who is your number 8 if you had to give one?

[copper223]

VOTE: Lynx
Could be busy @ work today, I'll check back to see if Lynx is fine with it at least once closer to the deadline.

[copper223]

@Sthar

My picks are actually Bookitty, Catastrophe, and Madea.

TTH puts Catastrophe as her second scumpick, when asked why she says she is leaving the read to you (because presumably you know TSO better) and since you don't have a townread on him he is probably not town (she says so when asked about with a sentence along these lines).

I'm relying on sthar for the TSO read. If he's not townreading him by now, he's probably not town. Next!

-TTH

[copper223]

@Lynx

Check my math, but if you self vote, the numbers are more even with the scum nighkill assuring that the smaller group has the least scum. If you're accurate in your townreads, we get [5t], [3t-3s] which is p good. If you're inaccurate, we get [4t-1s], [4t-2s] which is the worst result ignoring other roles. If you don't self vote and are accurate, we get [6t], [2t-3s] which is potentially gamebreaking. If you are inaccurate, you get [5t-1s],[3t-2s] or [5t-2s], [3t-1s] or [4t-3s],[4t] with the third being nigh impossible.

This makes sense if you want to be conservative.

@Boo
Claiming CoA is scummy because they don't have Lynx as a townread is a bit of an oversell and a stretch don't you think? If CoA is scum why are their teammates bussing them or not defending them?

[copper223]

That's why I'm not even more paranoid Boo, it still requires the scumteam to reposition themselves and potentially be caught when they go back to townreading them, why not just townread them or null read them today as well?

[copper223]

@Boo

That's why I'm not even more paranoid Boo, it still requires the scumteam to reposition themselves and potentially be caught when they go back to townreading them, why not just townread them or null read them today as well?

Maybe I was unclear here. I'm talking about CoA, why is everyone and their dog scumreading them if they are part of a scumteam, it is a reply to:

As to the second question, do you think CoA is a likely lynch today, Copper? Why would you expect that in the current situation?

I don't think CoA is going to get lynched, if they were it would be even more worrisome, it still doesn't make much sense for the scumteam to hard buss them because they may well be lynched tomorrow without any support.

CoA says he is not townreading Lynx because they think he is confirmed town, that's believable and you trying to make it out as if they forgot about him in their readlist because of some kind of doubt they may have is a stretch.

[copper223]

@Boo
I don't think anyone can logically say they find Lynx scummy at this point, worst case scenario this town lynch is not a good play for town and that is something various players are floating around, legitimate or not that it may be. The fact you were calling CoA out for not adding Lynx to his townreads is a stretch, independent of what they said afterwards.

You already asked me about my opinion of CoA and I gave you a detailed brakedown of everything I found scummmy or towny from them, why are you asking me the same question again?

So now you are worried about the thing that made you less paranoid about me?

[copper223]

@Boo

@CoA
I know for a fact you are wrong sometimes, it's the quality of the cases I am questioning. If it was caused by a time constraint it should be easy to correct.

I'm taking back some of the paranoia about you. I <3 this.

This is me setting up the mislynch according to you now.

You are harping on about right or wrong and I keep telling you it's the logic behind that matters.

- I think you have been wrong to include people in your town circle based on mechanics or PM tells, I have seen you (and myself) make this mistake so is this scum indicative for Boo, not much, but I can definitely see the scum motivation to do so and this part of CoA's case is solid.

I know CoA's push (that they now say was part reaction test) on me was bad, I think quite a few accusations against you are pretty far fetched as well:

- Reads being slim, that's selective scumhunting, Boo's reads don't look underdevelopped to me compared to the rest of the playerbase.

- Not having strong scumreads, that's not very scum indicative when today was all about how to best lynch town Lynx, again why Boo compared to someone else?

- I don't like the way sometimes sthar dismisses points with: this is bad or misrepping me and if you actually checked they did in fact say so (Catastrophe being scum, Lynx wanting to be lynched...)

Is it indicative for TTH to make bad pushes? Pretty much, so yeah, unless I am not seeing something about Boo, which would force me to reevaluate, they are more likely scum than not. The fact nobody else is bothering to defend them and that almost everyone is happy giving basically the same readlist is worrisome, but in this game you start with the most likely scenario and work down from there.

[copper223]

@Boo
I understand what you mean, but my read on CoA is not contingent on knowing your alignment, it would reinforce it to the point I would have little doubt or force me to reevaluate if I'm wrong on you.

It is true I should have points in my case as well, and that's why I do , I also already gave them to you but here they are again:

- I did not like her intro post, strange for TTH to be negative about playing with a lot of players which I believe she would usually enjoy playing with.

- TTH opening with a scumread on Copper makes sense for her as scum to do, she knows I'd probably put it down to paranoia anyway given our previous history and it makes them look townie for scumhunting, so little risk, quite a few gain.

- The question about Lynx (why am I not considering just awkward Lynx town) tells me she did not understand what Lynx was doing like I did (he wanted to get himself lynched or for us to think so) but still had Lynx as town, it's also the kind of read where I'm wrong whatever I do like Policy mentioned, you are basically saying it's scummy to have an opinion (and this one was also the correct one btw) on a player, it could also hint at her knowing his alignment beforehand and making use of that knowledge thinking I was pushing on him when I should not.

- Suspecting Krystal's alignment because of the post restriction, without giving me a reason for it and dismissing my attempts to actually get something out of them with my reaction tests, doesn't seem like the attitude of someone that is really trying to figure alignments out.

This is a summary of what I thought at the time for Boo if she is town, I have read TTH's and Sthar's replies.

@Lynx
GG, nice playing with you.

@Kthx and Catastrophe
Time to vote.

[copper223]

Lol

[copper223]

@All
I have been thinking the same thing CoA said, the mod wording of one, at least one, to me is vernacular of there is one scum that was scanned and a player that cannot be scanned on that lynch. Now a town player that cannot be scanned better not be, so I can only assume said player is scum, so 2 out of 6 and 1 in the 5, it also shows scum controlled who joined the lynch pretty effectively.

@FTL
Waiting to see what you have to say.

[copper223]

Maybe if you don't scumread me every game, and in this case have your partner tell me it was a reaction test, I might come around without needing a flip.

[copper223]

Basically 2 out of {Boo, Ghato, Kthx, Catastrophe} are scum and based on the disingenuous comment ghato made at the start of the day of there being exactly 1 they are a likely candidate, the other player I am looking at is Bookitty, that whole argument of me not being allowed to call people scum because they are wrong seems a lot like a preemptive defense now, unless FTL really has something on CoA which would surprise me at this point since they would have been playing pretty pro town yesterday, that's where I stand.

[copper223]

@FTL
Wtf are you doing then? If you are both town you just outed an investigative.

Because Lynx's PM tells us he would give us the exact number of players on the lynch that are scum, but the mod told us there is at least one, so another power partially blocked the results from Lynx, the most likely explaination by far is someone that could not be scanned is on that lynch and why would that player be town?

It also makes sense from a design standpoint that you avoid making what Lynx did a potentially game breaking strat by giving scum the tools to defend themselves.

[copper223]

@FTL
I'd be more than happy if CoA is scum, being pretty vain it would reinforce my self esteem if I caught them from page 1, but as the game currently stands it doesn't make much sense.

If you don't want to claim, is it possible to describe why you think CoA is scum without giving away too much about the ability you used?

As for the sensoring, I am not using it to clear town, I'm telling you there is no way the wording the mod chose is coincidence.

[copper223]

@FTL
PL said they did not submit an action so that's off the table.

[copper223]

So you were not blocked.

[copper223]

coffee brake, sometimes I'm happy this game is not live.

[copper223]

@BRantz
Did you target CoA because you thought he was town or mafia?


VOTE: Bookitty

[copper223]

Let's leave all this to post game and focus on making the best out of the situation.

[copper223]

The fact the sensor play failed indicates scum had a strong hold on the game yesterday and Medea was lurking, so not able to influence the outcome in any way, I have yet to see a hardcore lurker that does not get replaced turn out to be scum.

[copper223]

It is definitely possible, I still rail to understand how Krystal could be leaning scum on Lynx late D1.

My focus however is on the scum that infiltrated town yesterday, they are more likely to have dropped an association.

[copper223]

@Boo
Are you calling me scum because I am wrong?

Your flip or my flip, if you are telling the truth they would both be town flips, both are also useless information for the other party as of now.

You have a point about asking the mod, I doubt it's going to help though, but where were your concerns when Ghato said it ment 1 end of story after Catastrophe questioned the wording? Why are you still assuming there was 1 instead of considering the worst case scenario that scum got what they wanted yesterday?

[copper223]

@Boo
Regarding your question, I am discounting input from players forgetting to submit their actions, when they learn to play I'll listen to what they have to say.

CoA claimed investigative, for today I'm assuming they are legitimate, this matches up with my view of the game that 2 of {Boo,Ghato,Cat,Kthx}, you can add Copper snd remove yoursel if you are town, are scum hence it would seem highly likely a double buss on CoA would have had to occur, something I find really hard to swallow.

[copper223]

@Boo
Orly? What did I tell you yesterday, I live in the world were Boo&Friends are all nice people and we can get a solid town circle that isolates scum. Then I read the mod wording, and flavour my ass what they write in these circumstances is calculated to a T, you blindly assuming she would say at least one just as flavour is what is bad bad bad or scummy here, so I sigh and think to myself, well Copper, you fucked up with that circle yesterday and that means CoA was likely town, so their read on Boo is probably correct. Where is my progression questionable? Your progression is far shadier to me, not even considering new information and proceeding as if nothing happened, jumping on the CoA wagon without even listening to what they had to say or for FTL to tell you exactly what they had on them.

[copper223]

@Boo
Anyway Ffery just told me the wording is accurate, so that "at least one" is not flavour.

[copper223]

@Boo
I already answered your second question

@All
I have been thinking the same thing CoA said, the mod wording of one, at least one, to me is vernacular of there is one scum that was scanned and a player that cannot be scanned on that lynch. Now a town player that cannot be scanned better not be, so I can only assume said player is scum, so 2 out of 6 and 1 in the 5 (ebwop:it should be 6 here), it also shows scum controlled who joined the lynch pretty effectively.

these were my thoughts during the night and what made me change my read on the two of you.

[copper223]

I have no idea why you think I'm scum outside of OMGUS. The scum motivation for Krystal doing that is they want to be left off the lynch if their two teammates are already on it and alienating Lynx is a pretty good way to do so without being too suspicious about it.

[copper223]

Also, that was my sole post last night before heading to bed. It was right after FTL's claim of guilty. Painting that as scummy because I didn't wall is pretty shady.

If you are town get off the OMGUS, it was shady and I am not even the first to mention it.

[copper223]

I think, if you are town, it shows you that it's your perspective that doesn't make it shady when objectively it is

[copper223]

Either you missed a key information and tunneled on CoA because she was scumreading you (I did the same, not here to blame) which ended up hurting your crediblity here, or you are scum and jumped on it, this is how it is, you saying I'm trying extra hard to paint scum on you is BS.

[copper223]

I am town, don't you think I'd like to play a town game with the both of us again?

[copper223]

Yes, why didn't you wait to see what FTL had on them?

We just finished Hope Plus one and guess what my two teammates did when I counterclaimed Acryon, they both immediately followed me on the lynch like two fools (could have kicked them), sounds familiar?

[copper223]

It's the speed, which is normally scum indicative and the point of the analogy, I came into the thread after drinking my morning coffee, saw the guilty claim and thought to myself: well shit is going down, let's see what they are both saying, my first reaction was not to vote for one of them.

Now having played with you I think there is a chance you confbiased because of OMGUS on CoA, you did not like both Llama and Regfan and they were both town incorrectly scumreading you in the other game and you saying we should lynch you if we have doubts is classic town Boo... have to think about it, I'll read a scumgame of yours when I have more time.

[copper223]

I agree there was more to it than OMGUS, in both my case and yours, but at this point I mentally switched to viewing CoA as town so this is why I am seeing it from this perspective.

I do think those 5 {Boo, Copper, Kthx, Cat, Ghato} are the lynch pool for today.

[copper223]

I am shamelessly forwarding my candidature for the next scummies based on that game, it was not easy to get 5 townies on my side while being bussed by a teammate and while the other one first supported me and then decided to site flake (I hate you Dino ) putting extra suspicion on me from the guys scumreading him.

@Boo
What about it, I saw the argument between CoA and FTL, tried to solve it, arrived at the conclusion that they probably are both town and checked back on who jumped on the possible mislynch, lo and behold the player I was already considering as potentially scummy based on my thoughts during the night did so, and voted for you, does that look like a snap vote to you?

I already explained, jumping too fast on claims is often scum indicative, town is usually confused about what is going on and needs some time to figure it out, and that was an example where by using that tell you would have caught 2/3 of the scumteam.

As for that game, you noticed the flip on me later than TTH, who was in game at the time, in fact I was suspicious of you because you were still saying you had a good handle of my town game when I had already flipped scum there, after I read the dead thread I noticed you did not check-in until you started to warn people about me (that's why I said I understood your lack of paranoia before, and that tell went away).

I already told you how I come to CoA as likely town, I think there is little doubt the mod wording means there are two between {Boo, Catastrophe, Ghato, Kthx}, so if you assume CoA is scum there is a 75% chance they got bussed by

both

their teammates and a 100% at least one did, as the only one not scumreading them was Kthx, I think that is really unlikely. I also buy TTH being bitchy with me after the flip on Lynx happened and her starting the day saying precisely what I was thinking, information scum would much rather conceal like Ghato did (on purpose or not), also gives them town points, the whole interaction with FTL also looks genuine to me.

[copper223]

@CoA
I am not prepared to clear Tier and I also told Boo why Krystal and I broke up. I want to hear what Medea has to say, this kind of play is suicide as scum so why is he playing like this?

@Boo
If there is an ascetic on the Lynx lynch I am assuming they are scum or went out drinking with the Policy Lynch crew yesterday night.

[copper223]

She already replied to me that the wording is accurate, let me know what she tells you.

[copper223]

@Boo
Assuming town, you blindly followed the wrong interpretation so please... but you are right that I could have tried to confirm it first, it just seemed so logical to me I did not even think there would be any doubt and I was so surprised at what looked like a clear attempt to hide the facts that I wanted to give immediate relevance to what TTH said. It is also not something that would naturally occur to me as it is not part of my regular games, the mod is a clock on the table and a vote counter.

[copper223]

Frankly 1 and 3 (even more so as she could have just corrected herself after our requests) just assume the modding is terrible and I have no reason to assume it is. 2 is not town sided, if you have a player that cannot be scanned on the wagon, and why would that player be a townie, then that's how you word it given Lynx's ability.

[copper223]

It does not say it's non morbid, that's an assumption we make because a morbid should not have joined that lynch if he were unscannable.

[copper223]

Yes it is. It does not say anything about the second, third or fourth player, because they cannot be scanned.

[copper223]

Even the assumption that it's 2 is something we make.

[copper223]

My point is that Ffery writing that is in no way town sided.

If there is a non scannable scum player, something that by design is likely since you would assume some protection from the scumteam getting nabbed by Lynx's power alone, how do you word it?

You say, the scan revelealed there is one non morbidy and possibly more than one, the way Ffery put it is:

one, at least one, ...

That is the only way she can write it and be consistent with the use of Lynx's ability which doesn't say anything about giving us an approximate number in this case, and not revealing anything about the scanned player(s), this is further reinforced by her saying the wording is accurate.

We arrive in game at two because we make a series of very reasonable (but by no means universally true) assumptions, these being:

- Scum wants to split 2-1

- Given the wording there is one or more non-scannable player(s) on the lynch

- The non-scannable player(s) has(have) no reason to be townie, so it must be a second (or more) scum player.

[copper223]

Then the wording is not accurate.

This is the same problem between role blocker and role stopper, if the scan cannot be used on them then you should get no result but if they can be scanned but the power fails to tell you anything about them what Ffery said is the only way to put it.

[copper223]

Oh so now you believe me and I am arguing so you can lynch me and my buddy?

[copper223]

One = at least one, 2000 = 2015 + or - 10, yup.

You are the one playing it both ways, either I am right or you don't believe me, you can't turn around and use my argument to call me scum with Cat (let's hope you are scum here or your bizzare interpretation is correct and Ffery is screwing with us (then I won't be happy with her), otherwise you won't be happy with my comments post game).

She says there is at least one non morbid, it does not imply anything about the other non scannable player(s) if there is (are) one (more than one), we make that assumption ourselves.

[copper223]

ebwop: One = at least one, 2005 = 2015 + or - 10, yup (doesn't really matter as both equalities are nonsense)

[copper223]

She said at least one non morbid.

- Case 1: everyone on the lynch can be scanned, in this case the mod chose to obfuscate the results for no apparent reason and we have 1 scum.

- Case 2: there is a 1 or more players on whom the scan power from lynch doesn't yield results. In this case saying there is at least one non morbid means we don't have a clue about the players on whom the power failed, they could be banana aligned, they could be morbid aligned, they could be non morbid aligned, all we know is there is one scum but possibly more (this is accurate wording).

Claro?

[copper223]

@Boo
Yes that was the only point you made that made some sense to me, but only partially.

If the scumplayer's power is he can't be scanned at all, then giving his role away is town sided from the mod, and I don't think Ffery would do so, but if the scumplayer's power is that checks on him don't yield an alignment then the mod has to say that the scan resulted in 1 scum for sure and possibly more because there is a blank in there, that is in no way town sided.

Not knowing what role scum has this is my best guess, it's by far superior to Ffery saying at least one just for funzies and then telling us her wording is accurate (adding insult to injury).

[copper223]

@CoA

It may be for you CoA, I have most likely a 50% chance when picking between Boo, Cata, Ghato and Kthx.

Why is Medea playing against their win-con if they are scum, by lurking like this they are painting a giant target on their back. If they stop lurking and produce content I dislike and nobody else wants to pick between us 5, as they should, I will think about it.

@Cat

But I don't see how we can assume that the non-scannable player(s) was/were town or scum. That's basically just speculation. Couldn't it have been Lynx that was the non-scannable one?

What business does a morbid aligned player have on the wagon? There is nothing in Lynx's PM to support this.

@Boo
It's not a lie, it's a way to needlessly complicate the game for no reason adding variables after the fact, and I don't see why a mod would do that, she should have said so in Lynx's PM if his results were going to be ambiguous in any way by default because that can change the way he would want to play his role, I think that's very unfair if it's what she has done so I don't think that's what she did.

[copper223]

No. The wording was a "non-Morbid betrayer". There is at least one "non-Morbid betrayer" on the lynch. They can't possibly be Morbid. Lynx was Morbid.

Once again you fail to see the point, if lynx can't be scanned, you can't tell if he is morbid, non morbid or something else, so you have to say at least one in this case, there is nothing in lynx's PM to support this however.

[copper223]

Seems to me that would be dependent on how the scum player chose to claim the role.

Seeing that Lynx's role is incredibly powerful, I could maybe imagine having unscannable town just to create ambiguity in the results and not allow them to be completely game breaking. My conclusion that it's a scum special only comes from the fact no one's chosen to say anything, not from the role itself.

Unless said town is unware of not being checkable, why the swear word would they be on the lynch?

[copper223]

This is the last time I try.

Case 1
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is non morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 2 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 2
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being exactly 1 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 3.
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.

As you can see, in all cases the phrasing the mod used is applicable, since we have no reason to believe there is a third party at the current time and I don't see why a morbid aligned would try to screw us over on purpose, we make the assumption this blank player is also scum.

[copper223]

@Catastrophe
Ok that is a fair point, so is there such a player on the lynch that could have tried to get scanned without knowing it was a bad idea?

- I can say there is nothing in my role PM which would suggest it, so it's not me.

[copper223]

@Boo
I'm trying to interpret mod language for you to show you why saying at least one morbid is perfectly compatible with having a blank and having to rely that information to the players.

[copper223]

That is complete crap.

If you are a vigilante and your shot does not go through you have to assume the other player was bullet proof or someone else prevented your kill from happening, since when do you need to be told your role PM about it

[copper223]

+1

[copper223]

I want to lynch you for that alone frankly.

[copper223]

No, it means (unless you are right and Ffery is screwing with us and that is post game discussion for me) someone else's power interfered with Lynx's and the result was ambiguous, something that can happen in a plethora of role interactions, that does not make his role PM in any way a lie.

[copper223]

@Boo
What is the point of giving town a role and giving scum a counter? You give both factions a chance to get an advantage if they manage to outmaneuver the opposition, that is the definition of balance.

It does not negate Lynx's role, it still offers information but less than if Lynx had managed to get himself lynched without revealing his intent, so scum get a mislynch and we get less information than we could have because they likely managed to place the uncheckable on the lynch, if Lynx had managed to avoid letting them know he might have had a bigger advantage, as is scum had to accept a play from town but probably could counter it somewhat.

What is the point of putting a cop and a role blocker in a game? So you can get checks as town but if scum get wise about your role they can block you every time... does that mean the cop role suddenly becomes a lie? Definitely not.

[copper223]

@Boo
Ok now we are back to discussing interesting points.

I see what you mean, but scum has to split 2-1 anyway so there is no inherent advantage for the non checkable, providing he exists, not being on the lynch, then we would know for sure there are 2 between the 6 left out (because the result comes back with 1 for sure on Lynx), assume they would still lynch policy, that would mean 1 in 5 and 2 in 6, we would go for the 6 and have 33% odds.

What changes like this, now we are trying to speculate if there are 2 in 5, and most players still prefer to lynch in the other 1 6 pool as the Medea votes can attest, much better odds for scum! Not only this, but we are eliminating the plays were scum manages to hide the meaning of the sensor like Ghato and you (on purpose or not) did (Ghato was also in a prime position to control the information as he said he neighborized Lynx).

So they kill the strongest know PR, they get better odds anyway than they would have by leaving the uncheckable off the wagon not to mention creating potential uncertainty and who know what town is going to swallow up today, I don't see why the Policy kill points to Ffery just making the message ambiguous on purpose.

You also have to remember the 2 5 pool are what we considered yesterday our most townie players, the two are not equal and scum can make an educated guess that most of the suspicion is going to fall on the 1 6 left out anyway.

[copper223]

@Boo
I'd rather not mislynch you if you are town to begin with, and who knows if I am right, my arguments make more sense to me but that's why we have other people to judge the merits of both. As far as I know it's just me myself and I voting for you at the moment, medea has 3 or 4.

From my pov you are forwarding scum agenda, that's why I think you may be scum, some of the things you brought up also make very little sense and in some posts it looks like you are arguing a position you have to keep rather than one you know to be true, but if I had to go on gut or past experience with Boo I might still say town, I don't know if you play similarly as scum and if I can make that call based on that.

[copper223]

But fakeclaiming in the middle of D1 not knowing what kind of roles town has that can verify it, just because he was mad at me for scumreading him?

I think the claim is real, can it be a scum claim is an interesting question.

[copper223]

@Boo

Can you clarify how I'm forwarding a scum agenda, please?

What do you think? I believe there are 2 scum on the wagon and one is an uncheckable, you spent the last 5 hours arguing with me that it's not the case.

[copper223]

@Mod
Can we have a prod on Medea?

[copper223]

@Boo
I also don't believe there are third parties, that was not hedging, it was showing you how the mod phrasing could reffer to any alignment for the uncheckable.

[copper223]

I made that up dumbass, that was a joke on the morbid theme.

[copper223]

I said banana in another post, maybe there are 4 eh?

[copper223]

Only if that is true with banana as well. QQ

[copper223]

It's kind of the opposite of morbid, I needed a third faction for my case as to why the mod could have ment any alignment for the blank. So are you claiming this is multiball and I'm third party Euphoric?

[copper223]

I agree with Tier, Cabd. There is a good chance of your slot getting lynched so if you can't play I'd consider a replacement.

[copper223]

Oh please, I was so happy with your first vote of confidence Boo, I did not slip.

[copper223]

Haha, ok.

[copper223]

VOTE: Kthxbye
I was starting to think you were overselling the VI act, Krystal has littke reason to do what they did as scum.

[copper223]

Definitely wouldn't mind burning some clock time, we still haven't heard from Medea either.

[copper223]

@Krystal
Also comon mate, comfirmed scum from your pov claims on me to try and mislynch me and you think I may be scum too?

[copper223]

@Boo
copper223TOWN
BookittyTOWN
catastropheTOWN
Ghatokaca Likely 3rd scum
KthxbyeSCUM

Off the wagon, towniest to scummiest:

Krystal BaldTOWN
BrantzTOWN
Faster than lightTOWN
Cask of AmontilladoTOWN
Tiershift unlikely 3rd SCUM
Medea the Alien likely 2nd SCUM

[copper223]

Scum is screwed imo.

[copper223]

@Boo
That is a really good observation, especially because they say they may have a theory to clear kthxbye in the same post. I was discounting them because they scumread Kthx as soon as he claimed, but if they knew the role he claimed is not inherently townie, like everyone else assumed, bussing there makes a lot of sense.

[copper223]

Finding the second one if you just nailed them is by far a more important contribution, and just based on how good this read is I can say I don't even remember arguing about it <3

[copper223]

I am re-reading Kthxbye Cata and you really look like scum to me by association, after you scumread him for his flip he has maintained a scumread on Cata and BRantz (notice the order he gives), but always insisted that BRantz be left off the wagon, or BRantz be voted off today, mentioning Cata only in passing and as a side note.

Cata, you are dense if you think I'm scum after the card flips. The evedence is there that my PR is exactly as I state it. The only way you think I'm scum still is if you think scum have my PR which makes zero sense.

Gett off me bro.

[copper223]

The evedence is there that my PR is exactly as I state it.

go and re-read my claim, I modified it!

[copper223]

@Cat
The difference is, is it a passive ability that Kthxbye has while alive, then that role is inherently pro town, him staying alive helps town get more information than scum and avoids scum being able to fake claim as you mentioned, town gets punished for mislynchim him, or is it an active ability the kthxbye has when he's dead, then that's an inherently pro scum role, because even if we lynch him he still takes something away from town.

You arguing with Boo that it's not a town role by default is a strong indicator that you were aware there was a second way to look at his role that would not be pro town.

[copper223]

Call it passive ability then, the point is the same, if it's something that happens while he is alive, then it's a pro town role, if it is something that triggers when he's dead it's pro scum, Boo only mentioned the pro town version that Ffery saw in the other game and that's only a pro town role, if he stays alive town benefits, if he is mislynched town gets punished, if scum kill him they get rewarded by removing the flips, nobody minus you gave any indication of knowing it could also be a scum role if you reverse the passives from alive to dead.

[copper223]

@Cata
Like Boo said, it's all about role design, the first one is a negative utility townrole, the second is a scumrole that gets some compensation in cases where it gets screwed by an early investigative or by the player misplaying it.

[copper223]

Your reactions after Kthxbye claimed are all consistent with someone knowing that role is pro scum and trying to distance themselves from him:

- I don't believe him, he may be fake claiming (trying to hide the nature of the role), when as I said fake claiming there makes little sense, even partially claiming as Kthx did was really dumb.

- I am scumreading Kthx, distancing yourself.

- Arguing with Boo about it being possibly pro scum as well (but saying there may be a way to clear Kthxbye anyway) today.

Krystal claims and lo and behold it turns out that was most likely a scumrole.

Now this is very different from what everyone else thought at the time and with good reason, as Boo gave us information about that role existing in another game and explaining it in a way that would make everyone think it's a pro town designed role.

The way Kthxbye also reacted to your accusations is consistent with being teammates:

- He tells you you are dense and should re-read his claim.

- He scumreads you and BRantz, but always puts the focus on him first and only taggs you on as an afterthought.