Mini 1657 — Taylor Swift UPick — Game Over

[Espeonage]

Piesonic, is your doublevote permanent or just for today as well?

Vote: Not_Mafia

[Espeonage]

Hey Everyone!
Sorry I hadn't been here yet. Weekends I work a shit tonne and am usually pretty much V/LA for.

Endless Possibilities seems to be trying to get in Bookitty's good book.

soren is town. discuss

Because he spotted and commented on your shameless buddying?

I saw all that as obviously RVS playfulness, not shameless buddying.
Soren & Bookitty, what makes this buddying? It was just the posted picture, right?
Soren, do you get anything alignment indicative from EP's apparent buddying on Boo and yourself?

Piesonic, is your doublevote permanent or just for today as well?

Vote: Not_Mafia

Espionage, how did you know it was EP and not Lucian that was the doublevoter?
At the time of this post I see no way to have known that information.

Also, EST is my timezone. I saw someone (Soren?) ask that.

@MOD:

Could we have a gentle and kind prod on Aristophanes and Om of the Nom, please?

In other news, I'm pretty sure Endless Possibilities is town. Soren too.

Easy does it. I'm here!

Given that Hated + Double Vote is a common counterbalance and that there was an extra vote on anti, kinda goes without saying.

[Espeonage]

Will probs do stuff for this game at some point today. No promises. But I will try. It might be a slow day at work, if it is I can do stuff.

[Espeonage]

It equates in to lynch majorities so it is something I was interested in knowing, plus curiosity.

[Espeonage]

reverse psychology

[Espeonage]

I am Australian

[Espeonage]

Going to have a ctahcup day in the near future. But I doubt it will be today.

[Espeonage]

MetalPie. Tell me who to vote.

I actually don't care if you're scum, you're going to tell me a scum name regardless. I'll get in to this later.

[Espeonage]

Well

Unvote

to begin with.
you know what if this game stays short, I might actually do isos throughout the latter half of the week.

[Espeonage]

outdated

[Espeonage]

Will hopefully be able to catch up over the next week as it's mid session break at uni.

[Espeonage]

Soz, I have a completely free day tomorrow.

[Espeonage]

Yep. This is my lowest priority game right now.

[Espeonage]

White Knight probs.

[Espeonage]

All my other games are either more important to me (Team Mafia, My modding game) or they are closer to the end / larger and will be harder to deal with if I get behind.

But don't get me wrong, I'm neglecting other games too.

[Espeonage]

Just chiming in to ask. Is there more to that Boo? Ika does that.

[Espeonage]

Do you have town meta that is universally contrary? Unless you do then it's just ika-null meta.

[Espeonage]

:/ That was also a vote to take a wagon to tipping point. If this was five years ago, people would be yelling.

[Espeonage]

Neither,

The aggression is interesting though.

Vote: Boo

[Espeonage]

First part: Was around.
Second part: That has no bearing on anything tbh. However seeing as you bring it up, isn't your reason for voting ika is because he's lurking? Like I could deconstruct this but I can just point out that I'm lurking harder than ika, and that you citing lurking as the reason for not voting who you were voting.

I can summarise my case on you if you'd like.

1. Accusation and vote not based on anything that is actually scummy.
2. Hypocrisy in the reasoning.
3. Aggressive and undermining language used in an otherwise floppy defense.
4. Refusal to backtrack when shown to have flawed premises.
5. Vote target and timing fits with historical tells which while not really a good reason is just a little coincidence cheery that I'll put on top as it was one of the catalysts for the push.

[Espeonage]

Dodge that question a bit harder, Espe.

As stated in the post above this one, your question is irrelevant and flawed.

I'm voting Ika because I have personal meta of him lurking JUST like this as scum. Can you provide near-universal scum meta that shows he doesn't? Because I know for a fact that you can't.

Lets do a scenario.
You have meta of someone doing something as scum.

To make this relevant it needs to be proven that the meta is only a feature of their scum game and not something that they happen to do as scum that isn't actually completely exclusive to their scum game.

While searching, you find a single game in which they did the meta tell but were town.

Unfortunately, the meta tell you had is not applicable because it is in fact, not a meta tell.

Lurking IS scummy. I've never made any secret about my dislike for people who sign up for a game and then can't be bothered to play. I have just one vote and I'll use it the way I want to. You were fine with me voting Aristo; can you sum up the case on him, please?

Active lurking without a reason is scummy. Any other lurking is null.

What's the point of voting someone who has just been prodded, Espe? Tell me, for I so would like to know.

I don't know, it doesn't pertain to any of my reasons for why you are scum. This isn't a question for me. If it's for anyone it is for yourself as there must be a point otherwise you wouldn't be voting for ika.

Responses in bold.

[Espeonage]

Do you know that Aristo doesn't have a reason?

I have no idea. Again not relevant.

What did you think of ika encouraging people to vote the Aristo wagon, apparently in anticipation of being the hammer, without contributing anything of value here?

I have meta that says he does that as town. I doubt it would hold up as conclusively town, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. I actually did something similar [REDACTED] You can ask again later if you're interested.

Do you think Aristo's way of lurking was more offensive than Ika's way of lurking?

Again irrelevant, and again. I have no idea.

[Espeonage]

That still doesn't prove anything. To use meta you have to be able to show that the meta is valid.

[Espeonage]

The point is that you are using reasoning that your own play is saying isn't always scummy but for this person, because of meta, is scummy for.

You ENTIRE case is built on meta. And for a case made ENTIRELY of meta to be valid, you need to be able to show that it is valid meta.

[Espeonage]

I'm getting misrepped all over the shop.

I never called you scum Aris, I was saying that by Boo's logic she should have been still voting you.

I am comfortable with the Boo vote though. Her reaction to the vote, her language and her stances including the refusal to back down over discrediting all say she is scum to me.

@ika: Why do you want to hammer so badly?

@Lucian: Vote her, it's empty talk unless action is taken, and it will do nothing to change her attitude if she actually is stubborn and dense town.

[Espeonage]

No, but I never will.

I generally don't read stuff I've missed unless there is a huge reason to. Makes me an economical replacer. It's kind of like doing jump rope and you have to wait for the right moment, at which point you jump in and do the thing.

[Espeonage]

Ok no I didn't, will do.

[Espeonage]

[ skip to next votecount ]

@ Elyse: Now that the wagon in DLA has disintegrated, who do you prefer out of the other options?

[Espeonage]

K Elyse is town.

[Espeonage]

Stay quiet and not ask that question because you should wait until massclaim and then work out if they are lying or telling the truth.

[Espeonage]

ika really shouldn't be being wagoned right now anyway.

[Espeonage]

Why?

The case on him is dumb.

[Espeonage]

Because most of the case is based on meta and disinterest, neither of which are good reasons to wagon someone. Voting has never been good motivator and I have never understood why people think it is.

It's the exact same as when people are going to do something, someone asks them to do it even though they were going to, and so you don't do it because all the motivation is gone because you were asked to do it.

[Espeonage]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there, Espeonage.

I have a hate for lurkers. I think it's really shabby to agree to play a game and then lurk all the way through, taking up a slot that might have been used by someone who wanted to play and offering minimal commitment to that game and the other players in it. I think it's really rude at a minimum.

However, it's a proven tactic for scum. It helps to stay off the radar and it allows you to coast until later in the game without attracting any real suspicion.

Drawn on Arrival just ended, and Ika lurked as scum there. Uncouth Mafia ALSO just ended, and Ika lurked as scum there. That's two VERY recent games in which Ika lurked as scum. He was obviously around to perform a night action, though, so that's a sign that he was not avoiding the game during the night phase.

What's wrong with this case?

I hate people that use meta. I think it's really shabby to play a game and then use past games instead of playing all the way through, taking up a slot that might have been used by someone who wanted to play and offering minimal commitment to that game and the other players in it. I think it's really rude at a minimum.

However, it's a proven tactic for scum. It helps you not be accountable and it allows you to coast until later in the game without attracting any real suspicion.

[Espeonage]

Antihero really shouldn't be being wagoned right now anyway, because most of the case is based on meta and disinterest, neither of which are good reasons to wagon someone. Voting has never been good motivator and I have never understood why people think it is.

Wasn't paying attention back then. I probs would have been against the Anti wagon as well.

[Espeonage]

If you're a doc and protected someone then we know that person is town.

If you're a roleblocker and roleblocked someone then that person is scum.

How does that not help town?

There are other explainations.

[Espeonage]

For the second. He is probs some form of blocker but might not be the reason as there might be other powers.

[Espeonage]

Snark aside, do you feel I haven't been keeping up with this game and reading it, Espeonage? Because you haven't been, by your own posting. What are YOU using to develop reads, if you weren't paying attention to the game either?

Meta is a tool like anything else. I never said I used meta alone. Do you think it was unfair that Antihero got lynched as scum because of a meta read? Because that's what your comments are suggesting, whether you realise it or not.

Elyse, please don't hammer yet, I want to look at something else.

I'm saying that using meta is worse than never posting. That is how bad your meta case on ika is. It would actually be more protown to have you dead than spouting a case that is entirely meta.

[Espeonage]

I'm saying that using meta is worse than never posting. That is how bad your meta case on ika is. It would actually be more protown to have you dead than spouting a case that is entirely meta.

So it would be better if we'd never lynched Antihero? That would be more protown?

Can you actually contribute content relevant to the game rather than using this thread as a soapbox for your theory diatribes, please?

Before knowing he was scum, yes.

[Espeonage]

Your case you just made is wonderful though, so well done.

[Espeonage]

Boo, if you're town we need to have a serious talk about theory.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

I'm less confident. I didn't move because I was waiting for some more info regarding ika and DLA but given the wagon positions. I don't want boo picking up steam at the moment.

DLA: Are you town?

[Espeonage]

Boo has been ok recently, ika is town, DLA is maybe town and defs a PR.

I am not happy with any of the current lynch options.

[Espeonage]

VOTE: Aristophanes

This is our best chance to actually hit scum, but ika needs to go pre-lylo

Before this Aris vote you had a vote on ika and ika was at L-2. Then you change your vote to Aris because he's the best chance at hitting scum? And then two votes goes on ika putting him at L-1 and then you decide to hammer? Which clearly goes against your reason for voting Aris, the reason being that you thought that the Aris lynch was the best chance at hitting scum.

It looks like you wanted to hammer ika to gain town cred.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

This logic is flawed, however it does point to Soren town. If you read ika's role pm as it is posted I read it as scum had no idea who the traitor was. I think nothing is going to come from relational tells.

@ your earier questions to me. I was sure ika was town because I was feeling like he was a strong pr that he wanted to keep hidden and that was an explaination for his play. Similar stuff was going on with DLA, but it was less conclusive.

[Espeonage]

I see kj already covered that. :/

Again I don't really see any of the wagons that were big at the end of yesterday being scum. DLA is cleared and Boo is maybe town, she did good in the latter parts of yesterday. I haven't seen any case on Aris though. I only know it was a wagon that was going on yesterday.

[Espeonage]

Can I get a quick readlist from you Aris. I would like it to have no explainations for any of the reads but I want it done immediately as you read this without overly thinking about it. This is not a trap of any kind if you have to put people in null then do it. We can go on from there.

[Espeonage]

It would be funny if ika's target was the reason the kill got blocked.

[Espeonage]

I'm totes ok with claiming btw. I don't like my role and I really fail to see how it is even worth using. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it as a town role, but I will never understand the point.

[Espeonage]

I'm talking me personally. I'm not sure if it is the best to do a full massclaim today tbh. I think it comes down to if you think there are one or two scum left. If there is 1 scum left, the game might be solvable, however if there are two scum left they might have outs if they are smart enough to be able to hide in any plans that are made. If it's the latter massclaim is a probably a bad move, if it's the former then we probably want a massclaim.

Considering the fact that town so far has a flipped universal backup and mafia had a compulsive faith healer traitor, that would lead me to believe we are probably dealing with two mafia still alive, two types of negative utility on the same role that compound on each other v swingy and potentially very strong pr already seems lopsided.

[Espeonage]

?

[Espeonage]

Ahk

[Espeonage]

Boo, why are you so sure it's 1 left?

[Espeonage]

Sk generally weakens scum more than town, I doubt there is an sk.

[Espeonage]

@mod: do faith healers stop all types of kills? And would a 3rd party cop get results in the form of third party and not third party.

The fact that there is a 3rd party cop and only 1 person dead over two nights is hell a weird.

[Espeonage]

I feel like the kid at the back of gym class.

[Espeonage]

Truth be told it would probably have gone better with Lucian just picking the order. It's much of a muchness now anyway.

[Espeonage]

[ skip to next votecount ]

I am a one shot gladiator and like I don't get why mods keep making this role.

[Espeonage]

Oh sorry I'm "Honorable" because I can only do it to someone who is already voting me. IDEK

Marq, you should've said no.

[Espeonage]

Yes, but we have two protectives.

If we're not shooting for a perfect town game but just a definite win, then I'm okay with being the lynch today. I'm committed to my three person scum pool and my role is completely useless and unconfirmable, so if I'm the lynch then you can go with your original plan and solve the game easily imo.

This is only true if Empking weighs in and agrees to the bodyguard plan, though; otherwise he can just pretend he didn't know that was the plan and get out of it that way. I want to hear who he bodyguarded on previous nights, too.

EBWOP: If the person Empking was to bodyguard ended up the nightkill, that would prove Empking scum too, so it would still work to narrow the possibles. I really think there is just one scum left, but I could be wrong, I guess.

Scum has to both guess correctly who is getting the result and get through a potential faith heal if Aris is town.

[Espeonage]

Vote: Emp

[Espeonage]

Vote: Espeonage

Espe out.