Mini 1683: <<11 PM>> [THE GAME IS OVER] [[BUT WHO WINS?!]]

[RedCoyote]

/confirm sigh... another town role.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE:

Too early in the Day for wagons.

You're not voting me anymore. Or did you forget that?

---

VOTE: Redcoyote

Wagons are nice.

Yes there are.

I find that the third and/or fourth vote on the first wagon are often scum. Ill be keeping an eye on you

Bit too early for VCA isn't it?

Bit too early to be getting defensive, aren't you?

[RedCoyote]

Well not the first one. We'd expertly shoot enemy scum while they fail!

Now we seriously have to team up, dram.

[RedCoyote]

ALLRIGHT!

So who we lynching bb?

Not happy with either Papi or Klingon right now, but let me read what has happened since this post.

---

I unvoted because RVS is over

So you would consider your votes on me and dram to be random then? If so, why did you call us scumbuddies? If not, why unvote if your vote is already a "serious" vote?

(That said, I'm not happy about Coyote's odd statement.)

Because it's true :3

I wasn't worried about the wagon starting, I'm worried about a speedlynch this early on Day1.

Again, it seems to me like you're referencing the wagon on me. Or can you explain why exactly you were worried about dram getting quicklynched on the back of your one vote? You are conflating us in a very bizarre way. I can't recall a time I've seen someone non-sarcastically claim to have found a scum partnership on page one.

Actually, I think he

is

Scum. I just want to move slowly on this. Last time I was sure someone was Scum they flipped Town.

But how does taking off your one vote help you learn his alignment? That's what I don't understand.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

I need much more from you, dear. I do not like your vote movement at all.

---

I like dragon's 57 and Suzune's 59.

I think you think to little of the town, at least at this point...

And this is alignment indicative how exactly?

[RedCoyote]

Oh...

Oh, oh, oh. I love where dragon is going in 78. That post is on point.

Oh, this is tempting.

Screw it, I'm moving. Even though I still scumread Klingon.

UNVOTE: Klingoncelt; VOTE: Suzune

[RedCoyote]

That has slip potential though, no joke. I think I might be willing to lynch someone on the back of that. I'll spell it out if someone needs, but it's pretty clear cut. I didn't see it at first. dragon's post did it for me though.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, maybe I'm overreacting because I'm buzzed. Suzune's tone really rubs me the wrong way though. I'm not going to say the 's' word (slip). I'll retract that. I do think she was a bit too... eh, open, for lack of a better word, with her comment.

[RedCoyote]

It makes me nervous when I'm not even sure where red thinks I was going.

I'm curious why Suzune made the assumption that dram's "own team" was town. Where were you actually going?

---

His OMGUS overreaction to my pressuring him definitely moves him into Scum territory.

So I wasn't in scum territory before that post?

A post you continue to ignore, btw. :/

[RedCoyote]

You made it sound like there was more to it then that.

I jumped the gun a touch. I re-read the post and I thought she actually said "our own team", which would be doubly bad as, one, she's calling dram part of the town's team, and two, she's also putting himself in there with dram to boot.

Then I did a double take and noticed she said "your own team", which is still bad, but not quite as bad as it would've otherwise been.

In any event, like I said, I'm not going to use the "s" word, but the case can reasonably be made, I think.

---

So we are playing the pronoun game then Red.

Darlin', if people are going to give me the business over me calling myself town, then you better believe I'm going to come after you over this.

Therefore I said, hard when you don't trust your "own team". Why was that confusing?

I'll tell you the main reason. Because you accepted his comment at face value. That confused me a great deal. Had 75 been posed as a question rather than a statement of fact, sarcastic though it may be, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Further, had you used the quotation marks that you are using with me now (after you were called on it!), I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As it stands, the comment looks rather heat of the moment. I appreciate your explanation, however. I'll keep that in mind.

[RedCoyote]

I must resist the urge to high five dram with every comment he makes as it will make us look more like partners than we already are.

oh shi- I think I said too much. D:

[RedCoyote]

Don't know how to feel about RedCoyote's playful buddying of dramonic and visa-versa. Like it was funny at first, but now it's starting to get weird.

I know, I know. I ought to stop. Truth be told, I don't even have a townread on him at the moment. Though he's in my good graces by default since we're on a wagon together and the arguments against him so far are laughably bad.

I don't honestly believe it was what you think it was.

I want to hear more from Suzune, but I appreciate your candor.

---

What post are you referring to? Link, please.

The post you accused me of committing OMGUS in... 77

Though I can see how you'd be confused as you have ignored seemingly every post I've made except my first one.

I'm not voting you

because you're on a wagon

.

Perhaps try asking Ozgin why he's voting you before accusing him of being scum for it? Is everyone that suspects you scum?

Scumpartners. You & Oz.

And me. Don't forget me!

---

I think her reasoning is too fucking stupid to come from scum.

Anyone can draw a scum role. I don't think her reasoning is stupid though, honestly. I see quite clearly where she's coming from, and I don't like it all. I think it's poor, but it's not stupid. Big difference.

[RedCoyote]

Klingon, maybe we're scum together. Have you checked your role PM yet?

Lol, I'm actually having a ton of fun this game so far.

[RedCoyote]

Marcell, any thoughts on klingon or dramonic?

I forgot that Marcrell was even in this game.

Yeah, get used to that.

I wonder what one has to do to get Klingon's attention? She's so popular this game that she's only responding to the softballs and dodging the real, juicy questions.

[RedCoyote]

Needless to say I have strong questions on her townieness. But the problem is this behavior usually isn't an alignment tell for her.

I just call it like I see it. That said, I'm more concerned with Suzune.

---

What is this apparent buddying hmmm

We already claimed scumpartners... get with the program.

I don't like all this joking about with being partners with people.

---

And my current Soren read is that since he's vomiting IIoA and that saying no-lynch is terrible reflexively as opposed to being able to bring forth a valid counterpoint is hilarious.

This.

---

I'm still reading everyone as SuperUltraMegaScum, so I'll just be quiet and let you all sort it out for the next couple days until I get my scumdar recalibrated.

Noooo... but I have questions! D:

Suzune and Klingon are not arguing with me. What am I supposed to do with this? How can my reads evolve and adapt if we don't get a little drama going on?

[RedCoyote]

Do I even need to bring up a valid counterpoint? Everyone knows why lynching on day 1 is better than no lynch.

Have you read over the unique rules for this game? This comment suggests otherwise.

---

I love arguing what sound you like to argue about?

Please respond to 108 (the second quote).

---

What reason is there for town to buddy with people? This is becoming borderline mafia theory talk but I don't see buddying coming from town. Because only scum needs to do something strategically significant in an attempt to win the game.

Dude, you so need to chill out. You know I'm doing it on purpose to mess with you now, right? How about instead of trying to find partnerships before anyone has even flipped yet, you find one scum first?

---

You are advocating not using an advantageous position to gain information in favor of a semi-random lynch.

dram, have you done the math for this RE: mylo/lylo scenarios?

If you sell it to me from that perspective, I will consider it.

---

Ask away, I'll answer.

I wish we could just start over this game and reroll. I see scum in Klingon so hard and I don't know how I'm going to erase that.

Let me make a mini-wall to show y'all how frustrated I am with Klingon especially. I don't know if this is an act or something, but she keeps giving me the runaround and acting like she doesn't know what I'm talking about. As much as I have been acting fun-loving with her, it's starting to get on my nerves.

Klingon and me

You're not voting me anymore. Or did you forget that?

Klingon never responds to this.

I unvoted because RVS is over

So you would consider your votes on me and dram to be random then? If so, why did you call us scumbuddies? If not, why unvote if your vote is already a "serious" vote?

(That said, I'm not happy about Coyote's odd statement.)

Because it's true :3

I wasn't worried about the wagon starting, I'm worried about a speedlynch this early on Day1.

Again, it seems to me like you're referencing the wagon on me. Or can you explain why exactly you were worried about dram getting quicklynched on the back of your one vote? You are conflating us in a very bizarre way. I can't recall a time I've seen someone non-sarcastically claim to have found a scum partnership on page one.

Actually, I think he

is

Scum. I just want to move slowly on this. Last time I was sure someone was Scum they flipped Town.

But how does taking off your one vote help you learn his alignment? That's what I don't understand.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

I need much more from you, dear. I do not like your vote movement at all.

Klingon never responds to any of this, despite me telling her, straight up, that I needed much more from her.

So I wasn't in scum territory before that post?

A post you continue to ignore, btw. :/

Klingon ignores

this

question as well. And I call her out for ignoring 77, which she has just referred to when she called me scum because I OMGUS'd her.

What post are you referring to? Link, please.

Here she acts like she has no idea what post I am talking about where she has ignored me. This is in spite of the fact that there are now three entirely separate posts with questions that she hasn't addressed, at least one of which she used as a reference point for her scumread on me. So her asking for a post number/link is completely dishonest.

That said, I continue to give her the benefit of the doubt:

What post are you referring to? Link, please.

The post you accused me of committing OMGUS in... 77

Though I can see how you'd be confused as you have ignored seemingly every post I've made except my first one.

I'm not voting you

because you're on a wagon

.

Perhaps try asking Ozgin why he's voting you before accusing him of being scum for it? Is everyone that suspects you scum?

It took all of my restraint not to tear into her here. But I calmly showed her the main post I wanted answers from. Guess what? She ignored these questions and my answer to her "link, please".

Marcell, any thoughts on klingon or dramonic?

I forgot that Marcrell was even in this game.

Yeah, get used to that.

I wonder what one has to do to get Klingon's attention? She's so popular this game that she's only responding to the softballs and dodging the real, juicy questions.

I state again that I want Klingon to respond to me. This is now me not just asking, but I am now making the assumption that she is purposefully ignoring me and faking ignorance of what I'm referring to.

Instead of taking the time to go back and rectify the situation, she just says she was too busy yesterday (Friday). Fine, can you get to it on Saturday (she didn't)? Sunday (she didn't)? Now it's Monday and she still hasn't.

Suzune and Klingon are not arguing with me. What am I supposed to do with this? How can my reads evolve and adapt if we don't get a little drama going on?

My latest plea, seen here, and Klingon has come full circle. She tells me to "ask away", when I've asked her questions on five separate occasions, been ignored, asked repeatedly for her to go back and address me... and she acts oblivious to all of this.

I apologize for how long that is, but I think y'all may not fully appreciate how much this woman is dodging unless I paint the picture.

[RedCoyote]

Whoa, Suze, lol, all I asked was for you to argue with me a bit. Will get back to this later.

[RedCoyote]

You were in Scum territory with your very first post. Others have commented on it as well.

You specifically said that the "OMGUS moves me into scum territory". As in I was not there prior to it. Please explain this inconsistency.

Town rarely OMGUSes

This is completely unprovable and a silly basis for scumhunting.

And that's leaving aside the fact that you weren't voting me when I voted you in the first place.

Not so much how long it is but how fucking redundant.

If it was redundant, then why didn't you state that in the onset? Why volunteer that I should "ask away"? Why be so hostile at all?

What has me even more convinced that you're Scum is the trivial matters that you're willing to wallpost about. I could see such obsession on day 3 or later, but this early in Day 1 is ridiculous.

It is my intention to scumhunt, Klingon, whether you see that as trivial or not.

---

Well I'm not sure what you want me to say RC. Scum can't hit town tonight, so if we no lynch the WCS is we start tomorrow will be identical to today without the BP, BCS tomorrow is like gamestart with less scum.

I mean have you ran the numbers on mislynching vs not lynching D1 as it pertains to best case and worst case scenarios?

I'm sincerely asking because I think the burden is on you to show us why it's more effective beyond "no one can die on N1". That's true regardless if we lynch today or not. Additionally, if we hit scum today, there can still be cross-kills in play, too.

---

It was sadly nothing but and an off hand comment that I made. Nothing interesting I am afraid. And I fear I do not understand your fixation with it. Is it because it happened to include your buddy dracon. You seem very fond of him and while it was not a direct attack you thought you could set me up to take the fall for your buddy? I will not fall for such traps.

Lol, the assumptions you are making in this paragraph are wild. Your post actually started off okay until this last paragraph. I simply wanted more from you, but with this paragraph I think you saw an opportunity to play toward Klingon's frustration.

What made you jump to the conclusion that I was out to "set you up"? I saw something that struck me as scummy, I pushed you on it, and I wanted us to go over it more.

So yep, this is quite a messy spot.

Sorry about the always post my phone was over excited.

I will continue to evaluate. The frustration seems real, but it doesn't necessarily tell us your alignment.

---

So you like messing around in a game where people are going to die and we need to catch the killers?

Yeah, I do.

And, brother, if you think I'm the worst example of messing around you're going to come across on this site, you've got another thing coming.

Yeah, I wanted to give my input as well.

How thoughtful of you to tell us what Suzune meant to say.

Funny that you took it upon yourself to speak for her as opposed to giving us your individual interpretation.

---

Why would you be afraid of voting for the wrong person?

I give this comment two thumbs up.

---

You ask a lot of questions Red, but you hardly ever consider the answer.

Perhaps if you'd give me time to make a new post, I could!

I answered your question about why I said it and you continued to push it beyond reasonable measure.

Beyond reasonable measure? I'm trying to scumhunt, for goodness sakes. How the heck do you do that by not arguing with people?

I wish I was scum~

Isn't this effectively what I said in 16?

I believe you referred to it as an "interesting ploy"...

[RedCoyote]

Just one question though: wouldn't you agree that town would worry less about what they say and don't mind their words as carefully as scum? If it wasn't a slip, it wasn't a slip, no?
It also bothers me that this *slip* didn't bother Dramonic until RC brought it up.

As you know, I didn't say slip. I mean, I said it, but I said it to "not" say it, if you get what I mean.

dram is convinced, but I'm not so sure. Suzune looks so pathetic and innocent (in a good way).

[RedCoyote]

Well you see Ozgin, I'm an asshole, so that makes me scum :s

See, this is why I think Klingon is scum! Is this wrong?

[RedCoyote]

I will also be absent until Sunday, most likely.

[RedCoyote]

That doesn't make me scum. It means I forgot about that part of the role pm.

Even if this were the case, why would you assume you'd be nightkilled? That whole post just seems rather strange.

Additionally, half of the discussion today was over the prospect of not lynching today versus lynching. Did you just check out of that altogether?

Klingon's desperation does not give me good vibes at all. We know she suspects dram. She's suspected him all game. Her repeating it over and over, especially with the addendum, "You can lynch me tomorrow, please, just lynch dram first" is troubling. I'd be interested to see if this is normal for her in pressure type situations because it's unlike how I'd act in a similar situation.

[RedCoyote]

For what it's worth, Suzune would still be my pick today, however.

[RedCoyote]

BMR, you dodged my question. Did you just check out of half of the day's discussion in regards lynching vs no lynching?

Soren and Klingon continue to remain attached at the hip.

[RedCoyote]

The new normal rules outlawed "Vanilla Townie"

[RedCoyote]

I tried the wiki on Normal Game Guidelines and saw no mention of anything like that... I've heard of Citizen as a synonym for VT (although it's heavily, heavily in the minority), but I've never heard of anyone trying to "outlaw" the term VT.

I had no issue with your claim until you made that statement, which seems rather bizarre. Almost like you're adding extra stuff ("the reason I said it this way is because the administration prefers this term now... get with the times!") in to make your claim seem more legitimate.

[RedCoyote]

I searched this topic, and the word 'citizen' does not appear once. I've also search MD for the word 'citizen' and it led me nowhere. The closest I could find is some thread from 2013 asking people what term they preferred.

Now, I'm not the most active participant in the discussion forums, but I've not heard anything anywhere close to "outlawing" the term VT. I imagine anyone proposing something so ridiculous would be laughed at.

Klingon, I just call it like I see it. Believe it or not, I'm not "trying to find ways to make you look scummy". I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is you're doing. Your explanation, to put it bluntly, sounds completely made up. I've given you opportunity to clarify this for me, but you seem to be digging yourself into a deeper hole here. The only reason I could think for you to go to such great lengths to make the term 'citizen' sound more official is if you were trying to get dragon to ease up. I mean, if you'd have just said, "Oh, yeah, I like to use citizen", or "I'm trying to use citizen instead of townie or VT", I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But you insisting that either the list mods or the admins or some contingent of people have been talking seriously about "outlawing" the term VT?

And that's not even touching the fact that this game doesn't fall under normal guidelines anyway as it's a themed game.

UNVOTE: Suzune; VOTE: Klingoncelt

[RedCoyote]

Wanderer, you bring up a good point. I noticed that, too. dram actually went out of his way more than once to say he thought Klingon was "stupid town". That coupled with Klingon's potentially strong bussing toward him is something to be looked at.

Soren also has a lot to explain for. He was completely in the tank for Klingon throughout D1, and Klingon's interactions with him are very awkward and stilted. As of right now, I could probably support either of these lynches.

I do not think I want a Suzune lynch today.

VOTE: Soren

Mod

, do the two scum team's shots resolve at the same time? I'm assuming yes, but I want confirmation.

Not seeing a kill from scum team B is disconcerting. I strongly doubt dragon would've forgotten to shoot...

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wait, duh, BP.

Ignore my question, mod.

[RedCoyote]

What do you mean in the tank for Klingon? Can you show which posts that shows that our interactions are awkward?

You know, I think I am going to retract this. This was not as bad as I had assumed. I was conflating your defense of Suzune with Klingon, so this is not as strong as I thought it was. I do want to point out something for everyone:

Town:
Soren
Wanderer-nl
Ozgin

Lean Town:
BlueMoonRising
Suzune

Null:
Flames682
Dragonspawn
E_Lou_Sive

Lean Scum:
RedCoyote

Scum:
Dramonic

Town

Wanderer - replaced in strong. Felt like town in his posting

Blue - seems town too. Just a good vibe from his posts.

Suzanne - just liked the way she has responded to the pressure.

Null

Dramonic - leaning towards town just because I really think think he is genuine in hi attitude. still not sure.

E_Lou_Sive - haven't seen enough to get a good feel either way.

Ozgin - I keep forgetting he is in this game. Which doesn't really give me a good impression of him. Reminds me a lot of NY 180.

Soren - leaning null slight scum. Nothing substantial. Just a general feel to me. A lot of his posts feel like they lack real substance.

Scum

RC -not a strong read. But I didn't like the intro declaring. I don't like the budddying with dramonic. just a feel right now I don't care from.

Flames682 - just pings me the wrong way. not sure why.

Klingon - starting with leaping off the one person wagon for fear of an early lynch she has been pinging me like crazy. She asks me if I'm scum, as if that's a serious scum hunting question. She unvotes dramonic because she doesn't want to rush a wagon on someone she thinks is scum. Feels like she has been trying to buddy me all game. There are just lots of things.

Feels like a weak ass list right now.

(note, I edited these quotes with the replacement names to make it less confusing)

UNVOTE: Soren

I need to give this more thought before throwing a vote down.

[RedCoyote]

Nah, dram, you'e gonna have to give us a little more than that. I can actually see a Klingon-dram scumboat.

[RedCoyote]

Red, what makes you so sure dragon performed the NK attempt for his team?

I don't, but I am saying he came across as serious enough that he wouldn't have forgotten to either shoot or have his partner shoot.

Anyway, the point is moot as I forgot about the BP.

[RedCoyote]

Has Flames even made a post yet?

[RedCoyote]

@RC: How familiar are you with Dragon's play? And how are you doing so far forming thoughts on those 2 readslists you posted? 479 is the one I mean.

I'm struggling where to go next. I don't think I want to lynch you, Soren, dram or Suzune.

Hmmm...

Okay, something just occurred to me.

dram/Wanderer, do y'all remember when Klingon caught that "slip" from BMR and started pushing it? Did that seem sort of, like, off, to you two? I mean, a lot of what Klingon did seemed kind of off, but didn't her going after a supposed "slip", especially after she complained so much about the so-called Suzune slip, seem weird? I think dram is on the right track, but I think he has the wrong person. I don't think it was Suzune that she was trying to protect, I think she may have been scrambling to try and bus BMR at the end of the day once she accepted the inevitability of her being lynched. Think of it: she goes from having a "lean town" read on BMR (generally a safe spot for scum to put their partner on a readlist as they don't have to interact with them that much when they are more in the middle of the pack) to an abrupt 180 over BMR saying something that was fairly innocuous in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, yeah... I think this is where we should be going, guys. I can put together something more formal if anyone is interested, but look at the BMR/Klingon relationship for yourself.

VOTE: BlueMoonRising

[RedCoyote]

And I am not familiar at all with dragon's play, to answer your other question.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, I went back over BMR and the story checks out. He was indeed going after Klingon harder than I remember.

Sigh.

UNVOTE: BlueMoonRising

Sure is fun being town. :/

[RedCoyote]

@ELS, good point RE: dragon's partners.

The readlists, well, I was using Klingon's to help me with my BMR scumread, but BMR makes a better point, I think. He contends that he was pushing Klingon rather hard. I didn't remember this as clearly because I was also pushing Klingon fairly hard myself, so anyone else that may have been pushing her just looked like small potatoes at the time, heh.

If I had to guess, Klingon would've put her partner in a town or null read, though I wouldn't feel comfortable guessing what dragon would've done.

[RedCoyote]

I guess I'll go back on Soren. Soren did come after Klingon pretty hard, but, as BMR has mentioned, he also jumped at the chance to vote BMR. I thought Klingon made a fair point against BMR, and I didn't really care for his reaction to my questions, but the "s" word was thrown around too casually yesterday.

Anyway, VOTE: Soren

[RedCoyote]

I don't normally post from my phone, but that case against dram is money.

UNVOTE: Soren; VOTE: dramonic

[RedCoyote]

Wanderer, are you seriously comparing 471 to 524?

[RedCoyote]

Damn, dram is good.

:/
:\
:/
:\
:/
:\

I don't know what to do anymore.

UNVOTE: dramonic

I can't make up my mind. Everyone looks so townie.

The language barrier thing is interesting... because even the C/F thing seems rather weak. That being said, it's quite possible that Klingon/Suzune could've ran into each other in another part of the forums, too, yeah? I don't know if Suzune posts much in the discussion forums, but Klingon seems rather active.

[RedCoyote]

@RC: what made you unvote Dramonic?

The language barrier comment. If not for that, I'd probably have stayed on dram. I cannot make heads or tails of it. Oz, did you have a response to that? You didn't mention it in your rebuttal.

[RedCoyote]

BMR for a dragon partner?

[RedCoyote]

Flames, really, dude, you ought to spend a couple of hours with the game or tell the mod you can't hang.

VOTE: Soren

I think Soren has a fair shot at being partnered with either player, which is more than I can say for a lot of us right now.

[RedCoyote]

@RC: how do you feel about this?

The mudslinging in 520 does not make me feel good, especially given that it looks like he's just shopping for a wagon as you juxtapose it with 515.

That said, why wouldn't he just be riding either Suzune or dram?

---

Remember who the last "lynch this person today, and then you can lynch me tomorrow" person was?

lol

---

If someone points me to questions that I miss I will gladly answer them.

Voting someone for missing a question reeks of someone that wants to look active and productive without being active and productive.

omg, this is also what Klingon did yesterday!

[RedCoyote]

Also, I just realized,

mod

, post a vote count, for goodness sakes. It's been almost a week.

[RedCoyote]

I'd rather keep Ozgin around because at least he is able to grasp the basics of human decency.

This is not a reason to vote someone.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah that's because it was a reason to not vote someone.

That's not a reason to vote someone either. Certainly not at this juncture.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Soren
Stop the active lurking and start playing.

This.

Also, glad to see TTH

TTH, you pretty much have a blank slate to work with as I couldn't tell you one thing about that slot. Flames effectively did nothing and I don't even remember Papi Bear, lol.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Soren
Stop the active lurking and start playing.

I don't have much to comment on.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of dram or Ozgin's cases? You've parked your vote on dram this whole day. I've seen no maturity, no evolving, no, you know, mental exercising from your slot. You are completely skating by.

I'm intrigued by TTH's vote, so I'll have to consider it soon. Soren's post here kind of set me off though.

[RedCoyote]

He's also leaning really hard on cookie cutter theory to justify the dram vote.

I don't get much from your first point about easing off of Papi as I think newer players tend to make more of a big deal about RVS and whatever "propriety" they see surrounding that regardless of alignment. That said, I am liking this second point though. Especially your use of the term "cookie cutter". That's very fitting in this situation, and it does strike me as scummy in its artificiality. Further, the comment he made about "after checking to make sure it wasn't L1" did not give me very good vibes either.

I also agree that 186 is a weak puddle of goo.

ELS's 483 doesn't really strike me as bad, but TTH is right in the sense that he never really followed through. Further, there is a pattern in these three posts, and TTH did well to choose them and frame them as these two players looking for a "sweet spot" in between aggression and passivity.

UNVOTE: Soren; VOTE: E_Lou_Sive

I could go for Soren and ELS being our last two scum here, yes.

[RedCoyote]

Not much for me to add here.

Strangely, ELS didn't address TTH at all.

Soren is still ignoring the main things we're asking of him.

Either lynch is a good one.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: E_Lou_Sive; VOTE: Soren

Bigger wagon. dram needs competition. The people on the sidelines should be making the decision.

If I can say one thing to sway everyone: I think Soren could reasonably be paired with either scumteam. The people on the dram wagon have only been tying him to Klingon. I think it's a fair case, but I think dram's case is a good one as well. Neither Oz nor Suzune have been able to satisfactorily explain Klingon's curious extra knowledge of Suzune (of course, Soren ignored this completely and has been riding the dram wagon all day without ever thoughtfully considering the game whatsoever).

[RedCoyote]

wha

How are people having so much trouble with this claiming thing?

UNVOTE: Soren

You're a standard BP, you say, dram?

[RedCoyote]

Dragon got shot, so everyone still has a BP shot left.

Hmmm...

VOTE: Soren

[RedCoyote]

Then you aren't following along carefully enough.

[RedCoyote]

I appreciate you going back and reading that, ELS. I'll give you townpoints for that, because you did it in spite of me kind of being dickish.

I encourage you to join me!

[RedCoyote]

I do not understand your reasoning RC :/

For voting Soren?

[RedCoyote]

No... ffs, voting Soren has nothing to do with that post of yours... I don't expect you guys to be clairvoyant, but it's pretty obvious the reason I unvoted Soren was due to your claim...

[RedCoyote]

MonkeyMan, why are you even still doing BMR? Just post as yourself... I don't get why people do alternate accounts....

[RedCoyote]

If I was scum I would so vote you right now, babe.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Red Coyote

Having replaced into this game, I don't think you fully appreciate my relationship with Klingon on D1. I'd encourage you to go back and try and absorb that a bit more. I'd be happy to pull some highlights for you if you'd like, but you are shooting from the hip here, TTH, and it shows. I know you to be a much more competent scumhunter than that. I would be disappointed if you continue to go down this route, and I don't say that lightly. I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses in this game, and one of my bigger weaknesses is a tendency to attract negative attention. That being said, when I'm on point, I'm on point. I'm a fair guy as town. I will readily admit to coming across as scummy when I think there is justification for it. I am not scummy in this game.

---

Soren's flip was fortunate. I'm not going to start tooting my own horn just yet as we still have another scum out there, but I do have a question that I don't know if was ever asked before. If it was, I forgot the answer. Are the townies told if they are shot at?

Remember that the first shot from the last scum was on dragon. This is important as anyone that alluded to a townread on dragon presumably has more of an interest in shooting him.

I think solid cases have been built against Suzune, dram and ELS. My money is that last scum being in that group of players. Wanderer, did you want to weigh in on that? I hope you don't continue to stick to dram (remember what Soren did). Not that I necessarily think dram is town, but it would be refreshing to bounce ideas off someone that is willing to keep an open mind.

That all being said, I think, gun to my head, dram would be my choice for the last scum at the moment.

[RedCoyote]

dram would be my choice for the last scum at the moment.

You disappoint me.

Stop being such a drama queen. You had to be dragged kicking and screaming onto the Klingon wagon. Period. Granted, you were the hammer, and you deserve credit for that, but it was a long, hard-fought battle getting you there. Further, like it or not, Ozgin articulated a competent case against you that goes a long way toward explaining Klingon's moodiness. You refuted it well, but you being so blanketly defensive over me suggesting that you could be the last scum is frustrating me. You should be trying to appeal to my scumhunting sensibilities right now rather than trying to shame me once again. It's wearing thin and I think it's the wrong approach. It may have endeared me to you earlier, but now it's kind of pissing me off as condescending in light of how we've been doing so far this game.

And no, I don't expect you to vote yourself and go, "... if this is what you want, RC ;_;", but I expect you to sell yourself. And, no, saying I should go back and read what you've had to say about Suzune doesn't count. I should reach that A-ha moment on my own.

[RedCoyote]

How soon we forget! I was principal in getting both Klingon and Soren lynched, but I am especially proud of my Klingon push yesterday. When you were whining about Suzune and how Klingon was too stupid to be scum, I was busting her chops all day. The only other person that can come close to saying he was as aggressive with her was BMR. Together we also took apart her strange claim and got her tripping over her own rhetoric.

I'm not trying to brag here, but so rarely am I able to accomplish feats of successful scumhunting that I am going to greedily take credit for it when it does happen.

I'M disappointed in YOU for belittling the effort I've put into moving this town forward. It's simplistic, it's wrong and it's not very nice!

Also, TTH just replaced in and she's probably still struggling to gain her footing, so I am going to cut her some slack and be fairly blunt with her. I don't know what her vote is all about, but she's entitled to cast it and exchange words with me. You, on the other hand, ought to know better. Further, you've already tried that shame tactic on me earlier, so you doing the same thing again as though it hasn't happened already is disconcerting and desparate sounding.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: the day before yesterday

[RedCoyote]

Coyote, you weren't even voting klingon until the citizen thing.

You best go back and look again, babe.

[RedCoyote]

ALLRIGHT!

So who we lynching bb?

Not happy with either Papi or Klingon right now, but let me read what has happened since this post.

---

I unvoted because RVS is over

So you would consider your votes on me and dram to be random then? If so, why did you call us scumbuddies? If not, why unvote if your vote is already a "serious" vote?

(That said, I'm not happy about Coyote's odd statement.)

Because it's true :3

I wasn't worried about the wagon starting, I'm worried about a speedlynch this early on Day1.

Again, it seems to me like you're referencing the wagon on me. Or can you explain why exactly you were worried about dram getting quicklynched on the back of your one vote? You are conflating us in a very bizarre way. I can't recall a time I've seen someone non-sarcastically claim to have found a scum partnership on page one.

Actually, I think he

is

Scum. I just want to move slowly on this. Last time I was sure someone was Scum they flipped Town.

But how does taking off your one vote help you learn his alignment? That's what I don't understand.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

I need much more from you, dear. I do not like your vote movement at all.

[RedCoyote]

Real talk, I'm kind of upset with dram right now and I am tempted to just vote him out of spite because of it. It's like he doesn't even want to give me a pinch of respect when all I'm asking for is some honest dialogue.

Going to step away from the game for a little while because I can literally feel the emotion swelling up inside me and I don't want it to steer me the wrong way.

[RedCoyote]

You unvoted. Your scumread was not strong enough to push through until the citizen thing.

Lol, you serious? So you expect me to vote one player for the entirety of D1? I unvoted to pursue other leads... This is Mafia 101, dram.

Further, in the interim between the "citizen thing", I was applying constant pressure to the slot (of which I can show numerous examples, but I'll let you keep trying to convince others how "useless" I've been this game). Why you are neglecting that is beyond me; I can only ascribe it to scummy motivations at this point.

Anyway, I took the time to step away from this game and try and let myself cool down, but I don't think it's going to happen. I don't like the way you are treating me. I don't think you are trying to disrespect me, but I do think you are trying to manipulate me with malicious intent. There is no other reason for your gross ignorance of the happenings of D1. Either that or you're just being vicious in your townplay in a way that I cannot comprehend given our working relationship over the course of this game. I mean, I've been candid with you, sure, but that was because I thought you could handle it.

How did Klingon get lynched if my scumread wasn't "strong enough", hm? How did she get lynched if I "rescinded my own case"? I guess the Klingon lynch just happened and no one gets the credit for it, according to dram's version of events. Have you even given a townread for us at any time in this game?

VOTE: dramonic

[RedCoyote]

Wanderer, I don't know. To my knowledge, I have not played with TTH prior to that game (technically we were both in BEES!!!, but she was dead when I replaced in). In any event, I have only ever see her as town. For what it's worth, I get town vibes off of her here, especially after her voting me and then unvoting me after taking the time to look back and consider it longer.

[RedCoyote]

Let me put it this way.
Had you had your way, Klingon wouldn't have been lynched D1.

Nope. Interpret it how you want, but I'm allowed to go back and forth. At that exact point in time, sure, I wanted Suzune lynched over Klingon. That doesn't necessarily mean I didn't suspect Klingon, didn't encourage pressure on Klingon and didn't ultimately lead and bolster the Klingon wagon when it mattered most. Again I say, it's unreasonable to expect someone to vote scum for the entirety of D1. You actually making that argument is ridiculous and I don't see the town incentive to want to split hairs over it.

I could've easily ignored the "citizen thing" as I actually started to lay the groundwork for doing... that was until Klingon couldn't answer my softball questions and started tripping over herself.

[RedCoyote]

I went back and forth in the sense that I was pursuing other leads. I think that's perfectly reasonable. Wouldn't you agree?

I think you're interpreting my back and forth to mean I went back and forth on my suspicions of Klingon when what I meant to say was that I went back and forth in voting different players.

[RedCoyote]

I have been prodded, but I think I'm digging my heels in. I want to see a dram flip.

[RedCoyote]

I have been prodded, but I think I'm digging my heels in. I want to see a dram flip.

inwould love t see dram flip, but sadly I am not certain he is the mafia.

The natural follow up question is, who are you certain is the mafia?

If Suzune is scum, she's playing the concerned-townie-playing-against-her-self-interest card like a champ.

[RedCoyote]

Hmm...

[RedCoyote]

I won't be voting Suzune today. I can tell you that right now. I don't see her play as scum here. If she was scum, she wouldn't be struggling so much with her dram read, I think.

ELS is probably my second pick for scum at this point (after dram). I like the things he's been saying, but he's a bit of a victim of his previous slot. I thought TTH's argument against him earlier was a reasonable one.

I'm not closed off to a TTH wagon, but it's not my priority at this time. Wanderer, I skimmed over the last page as I am getting ready for work. Did you find connections between TTH's slot and Klingon's?

[RedCoyote]

Every time I check this thread, I feel bad because it's stagnant... then I see the people that aren't voting. ELS, Suzune and Wanderer in particular. They're the ones having second thoughts. I did my thinking and reached my conclusion today. Nothing has steered me away from it.

I will say this though: ELS hasn't voted at all today. This concerns me, especially given that I don't see how the person he last voted for (dram) hasn't improved notably, at least from what he's been saying. If he thinks this, he hasn't addressed it that I can tell. He's said that he's leaning toward dram, so this hesitation is questionable.

[RedCoyote]

Look, we're so overcomplicating things here.

Myself and BMR are definitely not scum. You can take that to the bank, bet a million dollars, whatever. It makes zero sense of either of us to be scum. I don't care what dram/Oz say. Whoever is town among them, or both of them, are overthinking.

Ozgin is likely not scum. Let's give him a 90% chance of being town.

Suzune is also likely not scum, but probably a touch lower. Let's give her something like 70% chance of town.

Let's just lynch the remaining three. Watcher claims if he sees the last scum overnight.

[RedCoyote]

Wanderer, you can be grouped with Suzune.

dram, you calling yourself confimed town is absolutely ridiculous and I won't even dignify that with a response.

Oz, BMR is confirmed town because of a series of posts I will display for you:

Of the current wagons, Klingon is the best, Dramonic is second best, and Suzune is worst.

not sure why that duplicated. Everyone should probably comment on the three wagons.

The three wagons:

Dramonic (3) - A Simple Plan, Wanderer-nl, Klingoncelt.
Suzune (3) - RedCoyote, Dramonic, Papi Bear.
Klingoncelt (3) - Ozgin, dragonspawn, BlueMoonRising.

I'm not Scum.

I don't think Suzune is Scum.

Vote for Dramonic.

That's not exactly an objective assesment.

*shakes head*

Seriously. Lynch Dram. You can lynch me tomorrow, that's fine, but get Dram today.

This sounds like caught scum.

Gepetto: You are caught scum.
Pinoccio: No I'm not! I'd have to be scum for that! Dram is scum!
Gepetto: Your shirt says, "I joined scum and all I got was this lousy t shirt."

If Klingon flips scum and I am nightkilled(or even if she is town and I am nightkilled), just to put it out there there my 2nd and 3rd choice for scum right now would be A Simple Plan and Red Coyote.

How can you possibly be NKd unless you're Scum?

That was one hell of a slip.

VOTE: BlueMoonRising

[RedCoyote]

dram, you calling yourself confimed town is absolutely ridiculous and I won't even dignify that with a response.

I didn't.

You did. Go back and read, bae.

[RedCoyote]

dram, you know damn well you were in that group of three...

Wanderer wasn't meant to be in that group.

[RedCoyote]

Oz, can you point me to a post where you've exhibited open thoughtfulness re: ELS' alignment?

[RedCoyote]

that her partner is most likely on her lynch wagon

See, I don't like this. This is too simplistic. Your dram case was good, and I can follow how that would connects to this "for realsies breakdown". I do not see how this applies to any of the other people on her wagon, however. I mean, she got snippy with me, but nothing like what we saw with dram. I don't think she acted that way toward anyone else, so I think the breakdown theory is necessarily a dead end.

In any event, she pretty much called everyone scum at one point or another. Her big names were you, dram, myself, Suzune and BMR.

[RedCoyote]

I mean, Oz, ELS is only off the table for you because she didn't "breakdown" on that slot? A Simple Plan was such a non-factor that it would've been weird for her to do so, frankly.

[RedCoyote]

Oz's overthinking is getting me to suspect him now. I hate it because my brain tells me he is town, but my gut tells me he's rocking the boat unnecessarily. He should be town. Myself and BMR should be town. Suzune should probably be town. Wanderer, too.

I just look at this game like, okay, let's get the obviously questionable links out of the game. The ones that have never done anything that was super townie on D1. Immediately I say that was A Simple Plan and Papi Bear due to just laying low while Klingon was catching a lot of flak.

I mean, sure, maybe one of us was able to roll with the punches well and play off Klingon and all that... but I think we can talk ourselves in circles debating that. Who is the "worst" (for lack of a better word... I mean, like, most ineffective) player from D1 that's still alive? A Simple Plan/ELS.

VOTE: E_Lou_Sive

L-1.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, no, I'm keeping my vote on VOTE: BMR. Posts like that just scream scum.

"Don't think about it, just rush a lynch! Kill anyone! It's just obvious, go for it!"

You, sir, disgust me.

I get where you are coming from, but that's not enough to switch. I'm frustrated, too.

[RedCoyote]

I had good fun with this one. I think the town (myself included) just kept overthinking the game after D2. Ozgin. BMR, myself and Suzune were all very clearly town, I thought. I said that then, and I say that now. It took me a little while to get there with Suzune, but I got there. Wanderer was also on my town list for most of the game and I think she worked hard to earn that spot.

After that, you just lynch everyone else indiscriminately. :3 It was sad that the last scum just so happened to be the last one on that list, but a win is a win! TTH did a pretty fair job, and, yes, had she come after BMR... I don't know if Ozgin would've been able to resist. I was happy with everyone though and would be glad to play with any of you again. Excellent job modding, shos. My constructive criticism would be to post your VCs more frequently. Even if you don't have the flavor ready, just post the VC and come back to the flavor. That was my only gripe.

gg all!

[RedCoyote]

I honestly didn't think you were town, dram, lol. I do desperately want to play with you again.