Mini 1679: Baccano! Mafia - Game Over

[Kalimar]

vote: beer

[Kalimar]

Claim: bulletproof townie

why did you claim

[Kalimar]

Claim: bulletproof townie

Flavour?

VOTE: Johnny because it just never gets old.

No.

Okay then...

Seems odd. But if you have a reason, we can always dance later I guess.

Put it this way: Why do you want my flavor? A related (though not as related as you would think) question is: What benefit to the town is there in having my flavor revealed?

Flavour should fit the role.
If the flavour seems reasonable, we consider not lynching you nearly as soon.
If flavour does not seem reasonable, we do consider lynching you sooner than later.

It's nice to have a bulletproof, but it is also an easy way to reason your way to lylo if scum.

If we have a cop/flavour cop, you'd be a decent N1 target. If we have no flavour, the latter isn't as helpful.

That is why it matters.

Aristophanes

I didn't ask you why it mattered. I asked you two very specific questions, of which you answered neither, and then shifted to an alternate reality in which I asked you a much more weaselly question than the two I actually did.

Combined with acting like the lynch of the role is a) at your sole discretion and b) a foregone conclusion, I'm pretty happy with a vote here

.

i don't think aris has exuded lynch arrogance - if he had, i'd actually think those would be town pointers. why do you think those in particular would be scummy? and yes, specifically the lynch arrogance - i get the potential scum motivation for wanting to throw shade on a bp claim.

(toasty /basically/ asked my other question)

[Kalimar]

my main bug with aris at the moment is the backing off from wanting tsq's flavour just after he said simply no and had some at least from his perspective concrete reasons for wanting the claim. i'm also not sure what to make of him just assuming tsq is going to end up being mafia. otherwise, i think he's actually been relatively open about his thought process. there's a kind of seeming naivete about him.

aris, do you have any thoughts on anything non-tsq related in this game?

[Kalimar]

1. Because it probably won't make any difference, which I realized with further thought, due to the nature of the show upon which this game is based.
2. I mean, he shouldn't. bulletproof is awesome, but unless he is confirmed as town, how do we know it's not a ruse by scum?
3. Our possible PRs can do whatever the fuck they want. If it were me, however, that would be my action. I think he should be checked.

Which of these do you disagree with and why?

All of them.
You asked for his role name and dropped it already after he refused it (post 13). You say that it could help the investigatives (post 27). You drop it again in post 37. But not only this. Others have actually asked questions to learn his reasoning behind the claim. You're only interested in the role name. To me, it seems you only want to know the role name, but are scared to push it too much. This is reinforced with point 2. You have shown interest in lynching him, because of his role. Instead of what he's doing as a player.
Talking about ruses: Wouldn't scum-you want a cop to investigate TSQ if he's town?

this is a fairly solid post though.

[Kalimar]

@Mika I think playing in my presence is effecting your grammar XD *sigh... my grammar*

I'm not a fun-nazi, but do you have anything on topic to say?
Getting good vibes from Mika's line of questioning, also as much as I feel TSQ needs to be questioned, they are going on V/LA so it may not be the best time.

Nah thats ok Toast I understand.

Well look I think the claim was really off... at this early stage of the game any claim is never particularly convincing, and usually just a bit confusing as to why someone choses to do it, and it's a bit anti-town to just out that with no need, the less scum knows the better for town. Whether it becomes alignment indicative I personally could only really say after I see further play.

this pings. the idea that the claim was really off isn't really backed up by any of the following statements whatsoever, which as a bonus are all pretty generic and boring.

[Kalimar]

i'll get to this tomorrow.

[Kalimar]

@Mika I think playing in my presence is effecting your grammar XD *sigh... my grammar*

I'm not a fun-nazi, but do you have anything on topic to say?
Getting good vibes from Mika's line of questioning, also as much as I feel TSQ needs to be questioned, they are going on V/LA so it may not be the best time.

Nah thats ok Toast I understand.

Well look I think the claim was really off... at this early stage of the game any claim is never particularly convincing, and usually just a bit confusing as to why someone choses to do it, and it's a bit anti-town to just out that with no need, the less scum knows the better for town. Whether it becomes alignment indicative I personally could only really say after I see further play.

this pings. the idea that the claim was really off isn't really backed up by any of the following statements whatsoever, which as a bonus are all pretty generic and boring.

Why does it not back it up? I'm saying it's off because it is a strange thing to do and I do not consider it a town move.

the use of 'really' makes me think you have a moderate to extremely valenced opinion; reading the rest of that passage I come away with 'not particularly alignment indicative, but slightly anti-town'. and on the face of it, I'd agree. the way he's gone about the claim and surrounding discussion is slightly town, but the claim itself isn't that alignment indicative.

what aristophanes was doing was pretty overt, but what I felt you were doing here was a more covert way to make tsq look a little worse without particularly throwing your coins in the pot.

though I may be reading too much into an adverb choice.

[Kalimar]

@JohnnyFarrar
can you say something regarding the game, i don't really like the 4 posts you have made thus far.

What's not to like? I have nothing of substance to say just yet.

Also who's here? I'd like to have a back and forth.

two minor towntells here.

[Kalimar]

Bro, were you Thor or Loki?

Hydra what do you think of stuff so far apart from TSQ's claim?

So far I'm reading you as slight town lean, feels like ur town game.

The whole thing on Aristo has me a bit concerned how far it has gotten, I am not convinced either way yet. I would like to see it play out.

No strong opinions yet

vote: hydrangea

[Kalimar]

there are lots of blocky, boring posts in this game and bleh.

but nqt, my hydra vote was mainly because the line about aristo push being concerning at how far it had gotten but not being convinced either way and wanting to see it play out is just plainly contradicting itself in a way i don't really see town doing. the 'really' thing was still an issue of its own fresh in mind but that was the tipping point

[Kalimar]

as for the johnny question, johnny even wanting to engage in a fluid dialogue is a slight town-tell; fluid dialogue is high risk and low reward for scum imo. and saying he doesn't have things of substance to say is slightly town, as is eventually ruling out like half of the playerlist for day1 lynch. i don't get an agenda-driven play vibe from him and he's dancing to his own beat

he's probably my strongest townread atm and i think he's a distraction

and toast my vote isn't because it's a non-factor slot, i really don't care about that right now. do you disagree with my reasoning?

[Kalimar]

i tried to read cooldog's posts but my eyes completely glazed over and you should probably just hit me with some good reasoning if you want me to vote there.

[Kalimar]

@nqt -

west9's play is really null. what is your read on the slot?

(also disagree that willingness to engage in an off the cuff quick chat is null - if scum prepare their cue cards and are good at it, sure, great, but my experience is that scum simply do not do this very often relative to town, even taking into account their typical 20-30% proportion in a typical town. i may have a different definition of 'quick chat' to you/others - i have a couple of specific encounters in mind where i was able to get some very strong reads from fluid and quick back-and-forth interactions between people in quasi-real-time. it's not the same as when everyone is posting effusively and scum are spamming along - that's less rare.)

[Kalimar]

and toast my vote isn't because it's a non-factor slot, i really don't care about that right now. do you disagree with my reasoning?

My impression of your case was that it is based on the lack of strong opinions/wishy-washy nature of hydragneafada. I think that behavior can just as easily come from someone who isn't interested in the game. Unless Hydraadfa has a history of replacing out of scum games, choosing to replace out of this one whilst staying in other just suggests she found this one the least stimulating.

wishy-washiness is fine to an extent; it's the way the opinions are phrased i really dislike and i got a vibe of internal inconsistency.

[Kalimar]

(also, getting prodded just as you post is fun times.)

cooldog, please explain your jf vote.

bro, did your aris read move townward or are the suspects you named more recently (nqt, toast, west) merely of more interest than him atm?

[Kalimar]

(But seriously your vote's still on me and you haven't told anyone why or pushed it at all)

the way that you are only acting defensively and not contributing to the town in a meaningful way is why I am voting for you. Throughout the entire game there has been no meaningful content produced. Just take a look at the iso. One line posts that say nothing or next to it. I don't get good vibes. This is fake activity.

@wake, misread your post, sorry bro.

meh

mehhh

[Kalimar]

regarding jazz's post, i'm not really liking it.
jazz looks like she's pushing all the blame to her predecessor so that her slot can start afresh.
i feel that the way she put that she is fine with being lynched is rather scummy in itself. the whole third paragraph is very defensive and i don't like this approach.

i don't, either, but then it is a wall of no scumhunting

with all that buildup i'm anticipating some awesome content

[Kalimar]

Sorry for my low content so far/no catchup/whatevs~

It's been a busy week! But, I am here.
@Aristophanes: I don't know, I actually feel like BRO is one of the players who is good enough to control their play across games. I wouldn't let experience with him from other games equate to a false correlation/ideas about his alignment. Just judge based off of what he's doing in this game. BRO's also exceptional at reading aggro and avoiding it when he needs to (as both alignments). So, in this game? I'm critical of how he's riding things out here. I'd be happy with a BRO lynch, tbh.

Is there anything in particular I should pay attention to on reading through?

how much of the game had you read when you came to the determination that bro was a good lynch?

[Kalimar]

i would like cooldog to claim

i would like content from the replacements

i will hammer when the above things have happened, or if the day is still continuing at the same time tomorrow

[Kalimar]

vote: cooldog

-fin-

[Kalimar]

vote: west9

if there is a vig, it claims today or i will not believe in it subsequently

[Kalimar]

vote: west9

if there is a vig, it claims today or i will not believe in it subsequently

are you saying that the vig made the second kill? why can a vig kill an immortal?

... why not the first kill fypov?

[Kalimar]

mm ditto.

[Kalimar]

vote: west9

if there is a vig, it claims today or i will not believe in it subsequently

are you saying that the vig made the second kill? why can a vig kill an immortal?

... why not the first kill fypov?

because i always assume that scum gets a kill - the first kill. and the 2nd happens for other reasons. i don't have much experience so i'm asking you if that's what you're saying/implying.

no, i'm saying i don't think those are town-generated kills

[Kalimar]

i'm moving house, i'll be limited access for a few days.

[Kalimar]

role spec isn't interesting.

i recommend everyone either puts their vote down, says if they don't have any suspects, or at least voices their suspects if they're the type to hold their vote

[Kalimar]

i have voted for west

i think that slot is scum

and i also don't think you're in a great position to talk about significant content and analysis.

[Kalimar]

wow, metal sonic's adopted a persona that's even more scummy than his normal self.

@west9: my vote was a hammer vote. no more or less. what is your read on me - i think it's weird you've totally ignored my suspicion on your slot. your vote analysis stuff underwhelms in a slightly scummy way - very few conclusions visibly drawn and a quite descriptive, mechanical approach.

[Kalimar]

i have voted for west

Yes, you did vote to lynch west9 in your post 506, and west9 is also among my top three scum list at present, but it appears that you voted without any content or rationale at all, which is not helpful in any way.

I think that slot is scum

I do not disagree, but again, you have not offered any content or rationale, which tends to render your meagre profferings useless from a town perspective.

and i also don't think you're in a great position to talk about significant content and analysis.

If you have any specific criticism to offer, please do so.

Regards,
Jazz

(i despise quotewalls, so my own formatting)

1. my west9 rationale is in my ISO - mostly on hydrangea's stuff which i've talked about plenty. i don't like his cooldog vote and the vote analysis looks like busywork, but i'm not going to pretend i find him as him much worse than a scummy null. hydrangea is what makes it a stronger read.

2. i have offered content and rationale about johnny town read, aris lean town and west9 scum read. not pretending i'm even batting close to my best town game here, but saying i have given no content or rationale is simply not true.

3. you go on about reading the game three times. the net effect of that is that you chuck out some in vogue scumreads (that aren't followed up) and then do no scumhunting at all again until you poke at me. anything you've said about me will have been true yesterday, so why was I not a scumread yesterday? why is the broseidon slot now not a scumread of yours?

[Kalimar]

oddly, i'd actually think the odds are higher of two scum off the wagon in this instance, purely because this wagon was so ubiquitously endorsed that it'd be almost toxic to be on. that's if there are 3 scum. if it's 2, then one on, one off, with SK positioning being an enigma. from experience i'd say it's slightly higher SK would be in the non-voting cohort {jazz, varsoon, aris} in that instance. wouldn't bank anything on it, though, and can't currently tell which scenario we're in.

and whoever asked for my reads, they haven't changed.

mostly everyone else is in a morass. i mean, i'd like to guess, but i actually just don't have reads on most players in this game. west9 + one in {toast/bro-slot} and one in {jazz/var/aris} is about as good a guess as i can make right now.

[Kalimar]

prod dodge, post later

[Kalimar]

vote: notquitethere

[Kalimar]

vote: notquitethere

Why?
Bored with West?
Don't find him scummy anymore?
Or do you see something in NQT worth voting for?

I also have noted that you vote people who aren't really around to defend themselves.

Also, why jo real scumhunting from your slot?
I see you saying that others aren't doing it, but I have yet to see much of it from yourself.

then vote me.

[Kalimar]

nqt doesn't care about lynching scum. (compare and contrast 600 and 634. 600 is the scummiest single post of this game Day.)

that's why i voted for him.

[Kalimar]

actually, nqt, why did you think cooldog-scum would be trying harder than he did? later in that post you go on to say not trying is usually a bad sign.

[Kalimar]

I mean if that's the case this wagon is real sad

nah, he's having a dig at my ethereal nature this game.

[Kalimar]

What's your problem with making a decision? Mainez? I'm used to 72 hour days, and so weeks of no information and low activity is painfully dull and doesn't help game-engagement. If someone wants to present an argument for why I should switch to a counterwagon then I'm all ears but for now I'd rather see the end of day.

I'm sure there was questions I missed but I couldn't see them checking back.

I'm going to do a reread, but right now my list would be:
Big (I'm still edgy over Bro from yesterday)
Kalimar (still not convinced)
West (where are they?)

Ugh, I feel like I'm definitely missing something here. Time to get my head back in the game.

Kali

nqt doesn't care about lynching scum. (compare and contrast 600 and 634. 600 is the scummiest single post of this game Day.)

that's why i voted for him.

This is a bit OMGUSy to me. You posted less than others in D1, got little attention, this is typical scum profile. Enough to lynch someone over? Well, there's been so little movement today and frankly I still know pretty much nothing.

actually, nqt, why did you think cooldog-scum would be trying harder than he did? later in that post you go on to say not trying is usually a bad sign.

I expect scum to play to their wincon and avoid getting lynched. Of course, it's a bad sign when anyone stops caring regardless of wincon.

in 631, you call for people to vote. i agree.

in 634, quoted above, you change this to say the Day needs to end. this is fine, except I'm the only wagon at that point and so the only way the day would end in that scenario is with a me lynch. you're solidly endorsing a lynch - not just pressure - you don't hold much confidence over, and i can't see the town motivation for it.

having said that, you changing your vote threw me, since scum-you didn't need to change your vote at all.

[Kalimar]

Hot damn do mafiascum days last long. I'll do a read list when I get back to this a bit later today, but seriously Jazzmin, JohnnyFarrar, Mainez, and ToastyToast should stop wasting everybody's time and cast their votes already.

No. I want to vote Kalimar, but this situation is too similar to the CoolDog lynch atm. Everyone is just sort of deferring to a Kalimar lynch instead of weighing other potential options. We have four days, and everyone should be using them to do just that.

also, relatedly, this is exactly what you're not doing.

let's just skip ahead a couple of (real) days and have your vote on my wagon now.

[Kalimar]

have the recent activity enabled you to form stronger reads on anyone?

Yes, indeed. It has led to both you and Kalimar sliding upward on my scum-o-meter. Thanks for asking.

Vote: Kalimar

Having re-read his posts, he said that he 'tried' to read CoolDog's posts but his 'eyes glazed over', which strikes me as a lame excuse offered up for not being bothered to read the game thread, and the only ones who don't need to bother reading the game thread are the scum because they already know who the scum are. He posted no suspicion of CoolDog; he neither made nor adopted a case on CoolDog; he lazily said he wanted CoolDog to claim or he would hammer 24 hours later (and actually hammered before the 24 hours were up) without ever voicing any particular suspicion of CoolDog at all. Then on Day 2, he has voted without posting any reasoning for his votes in between occasionally posting fluff and misrepresenting others. This is not town behaviour.

Regards,
Jazz

show me the misrepresentations.

i didn't suspect cooldog. it was a foregone conclusion lynch and he'd been on site and not posted since when i asked for his claim and the 6 or so hours before deadline we had to go. lynch > no lynch, and it was simply time to hammer.

[Kalimar]

the lazy argument is kind of the anthem and anathema of this game.

[Kalimar]

the other head of big the cat's reads list aligns almost perfectly (with maybe a little wiggle room on the degree of strength) with the no-reason reads sonic posted earlier.

too consistent.

[Kalimar]

Not a huge fan of his responses--I've generally liked his wagon and disliked the proposed counterwagons.

other than nqt, who is your second-strongest scumread, where are the other proposed counterwagon

s

?

given you're anti-NQT wagon because of me and west on it, what counterwagon(s)

would

you endorse?

the similarity of your reads list with BTC's is frankly eerie.

[Kalimar]

ehhh i guess i can take a little solace in the fact my only serious votes were on scum.

town got complacent in laziness - and i was complicit in it myself - and 3-1-9 is notoriously scum-sided. i don't think scum's play was particularly noteworthy but it did the job against a kinda inert/unfocused town. congrats.