Mini 1694 -- Zodiac Mafia II (Game Over)

[massive]

Here I am! Reading through now.

[massive]

I made it to Page 8. I found this:

The entirety of my play thus far has been based on the misconception of an all-vanilla setup. Therefore most of what I've said and done has been largely irrelevant...anyway, moving on.

which really seems hand-wavey. "Pay no attention to what I posted on pages 1-5!"

Farside's outing of her fortune (and subsequent play out of the dayvig stuff) makes her most likely town. Not sure why Lane doesn't believe her ... Farside is fair as scum (having recently been burned by her) but has never struck me as the gambit-y type. There's absolutely no reason for her to even share what negative horoscope she received.

Not crazy about Tammy's confusion over the rules since they seem fairly straightforward, but I don't know that it's alignment indicative either way.

[massive]

Don't you think it's a little hard to say "it's not OMGUS" when you start out your scumread with "this is the epitome of hypocrisy"?

[massive]

I'd like massive's thoughts on the game since they were catching up\replaced in.

Me too. Today has been a killer in the office and I'm barely popping in to keep up with current events, but I should have some downtime at the weekend to roll around in it.

[massive]

After that I think metal and nachos reactions to it are the second scummiest. Both tried to lead us to believe they could pm it to the mod and their reactions seem the weirdest in general imo.

But why would they lead us to believe that if they were scum and knew they HADN'T picked the day kill?

[massive]

massive has not done as promised which is a bad start

I made it to page 12 and have kept current with posts since I replaced in. I usually abhor computers on the weekend and this is easily proven out by looking at any of my other games. So, to put it politely, stuff a sock in it, Potsy.

[massive]

Man, and here I was so polite about it.

[massive]

I'm not going to move my vote. He had one decent post and then set himself up for not posting during the week (blah work busy) and the weekends (blah no computer busy).

Can you explain your turnabout in scumhunting style? You vote Tammy for essentially her meta of replacing-in tactics but you just low-fruit swing away at me without bothering to look at mine? Is it due to Tammy's reputation on-site compared to mine?

[massive]

Your reputation is pretty big as well

I'm pretty sure you only think that because my username is massive.

I would care to respond but I don't respond to liars who don't have time for the game, but wait you suddenly seem to...

Huh, fancy that! I may have been ... *gasp* telling the truth the WHOLE TIME!

[massive]

It's funny that you assume I'm not reading the thread now AND looking back to enable myself to be able to interact with you. But thumbs-up for the tunnel.

[massive]

Right now, things I noticed:

315: Why is Mainez waffling on reading start at all? If he's doing nothing but fluffposting (which, let's face it, he had been doing up to that point) then you should be able to commit one way or the other -- or (if you're trying to determine his alignment) then start asking questions. Calling attention to it and then leaving it non-committal is suspicious.

331: For someone who doesn't care about reputation at all (589) it's strange that elusive is willing to give Nacho a pass here. Yes, she pays him a little lip service by claiming he's "super suspicious" but doesn't appear to care enough to follow up (not on page 14 anyways).

[massive]

373: Marquis. I don't think Tammy is sortable today so I can't imagine pushing for a lynch on her. She pulls back in 378 but her scumreads seem to be based on things I can't see or understand (see 396). That said I do like 394.

399: Lane seems to be the worst meta-diver ever, worse than elusive even. Not crazy about the way he has to change his case by 402 since obviously "lies about previous games" was not going to fly.

412: Aronis's case on elusive is mostly "I don't like elusive" and not much more. Sadly I read this as town nowadays.

Quickreads:
More likely town: farside, Aronis
Possibly town and willing to take a flyer: Tammy
Possibly town but this is gonna be a long game: elusive
Fluffing around the middle: start, Nacho, mainez, marquis, Metal Sonic
More likely scum: Lane, Ricastle

As you can see, I'm on page 18, about up to my entry in the game.

[massive]

Evidently I need to

unvote

and figure out where my vote needs to live.

[massive]

Tammy, do you normally blind-vote people with the intention of wondering why no one asks you about it?

[massive]

Massive: I disagree with you about lane. Would lynch ric

Do you think he's just bumbly then, and not scummy?

[massive]

I am concerned about Massive, because that MOFO is an unreadable beast. I am scared half to death of that devil spawn.

Are you MY alt? Because honestly I can't think of anyone else who would hold me in such, uh, high regard.

And that's a really sneaky L-1 there.

[massive]

Yeah I'm not voting nacho.

[massive]

No, I'm voting you because you were vigorously pushing a deadline mislynch with no case.

Uh ... you sure seem awful certain that that was a mislynch. Like, "you italicized it" certain.

[massive]

I could vote Mainez. Best option presented so far.

vote Mainez

[massive]

Here is a completely reasonable request. For SFTH and Massive, you guys should justify your votes.

Do you know her town reads? Do you know her scum reads? She's flitted around the periphery, answering just enough questions without asking too many of her own, abandoned her one read (Aronis) based on meta given her by Nacho without looking to see if it's true ...

I wrote all that for nothing, didn't I.

[massive]

MS and Start should probably discuss what the horoscope means so we can figure out if farside is confirmed or not, I have doubts.

MS should DEFINITELY not discuss what horoscope he got. I'm not sure how this is even remotely helpful, since their horoscopes have nothing to do with what confirms (or doesn't confirm) farside -- which is how she revealed her horoscope, not the mechanics of the game.

Who would be stupid enough to think that I would suspect someone all day one and then NK them as scum? Or which scum would think this would be a good strategy to turn suspicion on me?

Why do you immediately assume this is about you?

i'm still on the mindset of lynching aronis!

Why? Did you explain this yesterday?

What always bugs me about people coming in and saying "there's no way I would kill Person X" is that Mafia, for the scum, is a team game, and nightkills are something that get discussed and bartered and disagreed upon. Just because you may be able to honestly say / say with conviction, "I would not have killed Person X" doesn't mean anything. So scumpoints to elusive for trying to use it as a blanket defense and scumpoints to Mainez for believing it wholesale in 1088.

BTW, if you get a power by means of the zodiac, and I'm pretty sure that is the only way you can get one, then you HAVE to claim it.

This is ridiculous and I can't imagine any pro-town reason for wanting this information.

Also, what's up with your very bad case of "not actually reading the thread"?

[massive]

I still find massive to be odd, selective engagement much?

Is this your way of saying you won't answer my questions?

[massive]

Good fortunes should claim, because the majority of good fortunes are null or protective abilities, and since the people who receive good fortunes are public, they are most subject to the NK.

The bad fortunes should claim because they are anti-town utility, therefore the best thing they can do is inform us of what kinds of things we are dealing with.

Are you adverse to reading the thread, or just willfully not comprehending it?

The best positive fortune is the bulletproof vest. If someone received it, why should they claim it? Alternately, why should they prove to scum that they DIDN'T receive it?

And both farside (scum get to pick one) and start (nothing happened) have both already claimed their negative fortunes.

[massive]

No heart.

Well this is the first time I've encountered the "Cowardly Lion" scumread.

And btw I think most of what Ricastle is laying down males complete sense right now

How does this integrate with your opinion of him from D1?

[massive]

VOTE: Lane

Pushes elusive D1, abandons scum read on elusive once more people state town reads, pushes Ric D1, sheeps Ric like there's no tomorrow D2. And I guess you AREN'T 100% vanilla town?

[massive]

No I'm not 100% vanilla town dipshit. I'm townie. Your votes are a joke. And you thinking I'm sheeping ric is even worse. How could I be seeping ric day 2 when I wanted nacho lynched day 1 already and still do? I don't like those vote

Your votes for Nacho were RVS (31), abandonment of elusive with no reason (and no vote reason) (411), and end-of-day bandwagon (849). In between second and third vote you claim at least partial townread on Nacho (786). Even after voting for Nacho in 849, you are still soft-pushing for a Ric lynch (866) and you do NOT suddenly develop a hard scum read on Nacho until D2.

[massive]

I have Nacho as lean-town. I actually liked his urgency end-of-day yesterday and thought he read as genuinely wanting to get a lynch done, even if it meant it was him. It doesn't hurt that the cases against him today are kinda ridiculous, either.

I have no idea how to read MS. I think from now, every time he posts some blanket statement without even some small reason, I'll just quote it with "BUT WHYYYYY?" like a three year old.

[massive]

How sense of urgency to get a lynch? Are you sure you read the end of day AT ALL?! He could give a fuck about a lynch.

Well yeah, since I was there and posting during it. And I don't have any problem with this:

He votes himself then unvotes 2 MINUTES LATER not even giving that a chance to transpire but making it look like he's willing to give himself for a lynch.

since you seem to want to ignore that there's a reasonable case presented on Mainez AND three more people voting for Mainez in those two minutes. I'm not sure why you want to harp on the TIME specifics of it, when the content clearly explains why his vote moved.

[massive]

And why in the blue fuck would I sheep ricastle on Nacho, if I'm scum??? Think clearly, if Nacho is town, Ricastle wants to go for me. So that would make me back off nacho.

Agree or disagree and why?

Disagree, and this is classic WIFOM. You're asking me to believe you are town based on one person's threat to go after you based on a third person's flip? In order for me to believe that, I would have to believe you are afraid of Ricastle -- which I don't -- or you don't feel like you could fight back against Ricastle -- which you have disproven on D1.

And you know perfectly well that deadline wagons have different standards than normal wagons. You don't seem surprised no one jumped back on the Constantine wagon.

[massive]

He's been doing it all game. Why are you concerned about it now?

[massive]

All game huh? Mind showing me his first post about it? I think I found it. Day 2. Post 1000 something. Before it was annoying. Now it's really annoying.

For you to say hes been saying it all game is a ridiculous statement meant to make it look like I'm just trying to find something. Oh wait. I bet I'm going to sheep mainez day 3 like I sheeped ricastle day 2 huh?

Immediately upon day start. He wasn't here for D1 (replaced in at deadline) or I'm sure he would have done it all day D1 too. Was it relevant that he replaced in and so couldn't actually start until post 1000? Probably. Did that get a mention from you? Nope. Instead you presented it as though he had been here for a thousand posts before asking.

VOTE: Lane

[massive]

So what have I done that's scummy? Why are you voting me?

My points from voting you yesterday still sit fine with me. Having you pop in today and latch onto the point I made yesterday about Constantine doesn't hurt either.

The obvious scum continues to be obvious.

Can you explain a little more about your vote? As far as I can see in your ISO, this is the first time you've mentioned even being remotely suspicious of him.

[massive]

I could be OK with Mainez as well.

VOTE: Mainez

[massive]

If it's MS & Start I am going to be very annoyed

Why is this? Is it because you're townreading them, or because they're barely participating and you're letting them slide?

Aronis said early that we should massclaim. This was odd, because my theory was that all town were vanilla until they recieved a horoscope.

Why is this specifically scummy, but your continued horoscope-fishing is OK?

[massive]

^ looks scummy

Was there something specific you took offense to?

[massive]

Will pull together my reads list then in the morning.

And I really hate having to play a game where I have to carefully word questions like I'm getting wishes granted by a genie just to get answers. I shouldn't have to sit here and ask "what, with specificity, is the thing that looks scummy about the post prior to the one wherein you indicate I am scummy?" to get the answer to the question I am obviously asking. It's not like I'm asking for a million bucks.

[massive]

Yeah, I could use some better justification than purely self-preservation, since I had Ric as lean-town for this:

Okay then. I think the responsibility for that lynch weighs on me just as much as Saint though, which is why I got confused.

[massive]

If I ask, can we have some details on your deductive analysis, are you going to just answer "Yes" again with no follow-up?

I'm mid-rereading Ricastle now.

[massive]

The problem is, your reasoning isn't confined to in-game reasons -- it's meta, and I really hate meta as any kind of proof of anything. His last few other games are all still ongoing and look a lot like this game. And him being willing to shoulder at least part of the blame for the Nacho lynch isn't something I'd expect scum to do.

On top of that, Ricastle was the one who started the daykill exposure plan on D1. So you have to convince me that it was better for scum-Ricastle to (1) opt NOT to take the daykill from the bad horoscope and (2) start the popcorn daykill, rather than just take the daykill and shut up.

[massive]

About the daykill plan, I have to think about it but horoscopes are random. Maybe he knew that town had to have it and wanted it to go off?.

Scum got to pick due to farside's bad horoscope pre-game-start (mod-confirmed, 133). So scum-Ric would have known when he suggested it, what they picked. It's not a stretch to believe scum didn't pick the daykill (since that apparently is what happened); it IS a stretch to believe that scum-Ric would have been so eager to expose this fact to everybody else.

[massive]

Aries is cool, who are the Aries in the game?

Me. I'm pretty sweet, I must admit.

What do you think about the point I made about Mainez and how OP it would be for scum to have their abilities plus two fortunate horoscopes?

Well, first of all, your point was

Mainez has two horoscopes. However, scum can't be vanilla otherwise how they would make NKs?

so I'm not sure where you're saying it's OP --or-- what abilities you think they have other than the horoscopes? Also, where did the "Mainez has two horoscopes" even come from? Far as I can see, she just has one from D1.

[massive]

VOTE: Metal Sonic

[massive]

I can hammer but I don't think that, if I do, it's even a hammer. Is it?

[massive]

You, Sonic, Ric?

[massive]

So you wanted to be absolved of the hammer, huh?

[massive]

Welp, let's find out.

VOTE: Mainez

[massive]

Well, that was a shitty way to lose, without even getting a post in in my defense.

[massive]

Because I thought Sonic would walk back on his claim of roleblocking me and be less persuasive.

And I think I had to bus Mainez there since I was already on her train on D1 during the missed lynch. She hadn't done anything that should have changed my opinion of her.

[massive]

Oh it's all good. You all were robbed of my pretend "every post has to rhyme" post restriction that was coming D4, but that's the only real downside I see.