Genesis Mafia - Game Over!

[Nachomamma8]

*Pulling a sleepkrew*

You're replacing out because of Nacho too?

Didn't mean to displace you from a game you were already playing: if you want me to leave, I will.

[Nachomamma8]

But, I should add, we should be fine. I rarely talk shit about people's incorrect reads on me unless they talk a lot about how easy I am to read so I think your fear that I would ridicule you post-game is misplaced (@sleepy).

[Nachomamma8]

ABR's play is easy like Sunday morning.

*vote the person who says easily punishable things
*vote Vi when convenient (for reasons that are best explained with the level of reasoning I'd expect from a seven-year-old)
*has spent the Day lurking instead of pushing his wagon
*only stops lurking to post about how he's being oppressed by the SJWs

And if I end up being able to stay, the first thing I want to talk about is this.

This is ABR's towngame, pure and true. He's been so apathetic about scumgames lately that he doesn't get emotionally invested enough in games as scum to let the crazy come on out. His play in Nightless was similar to what you're describing (GreyICE compared him to an Al Qaeda terrorist) and, lo and behold, town. His play in Curse of the Werewolves, a recent Pick Your Poison... not so much.

[Nachomamma8]

Of what I've read so far (parts skimmed in bits and pieces):

Vi seems town based on what I've read of her interactions with LLD and her attitude about the game so far (frustration, engagement, etc). The one concern I have here is about her single-mindedness around Plum and the vezok wagon still somehow going through, but I haven't actually read Day 1 so all I have currently is speculations.

Zakk is another strong townread, I read a snippet of one of his posts while reading Vi's ISO and found myself a pretty big fan of the "trying to get on my good side" accusation in response to a strong town read. It wouldn't be the craziest thing scum has ever done, but it seems a decent start for a strong read.

I don't really think the Plum case is particularly strong; sure, she's done nothing, but that's been pretty typical of her play as I remember it. I did read her ISO, I did like her frustrated tone in response to some points, but my eyes glazed over because it's too late (early?) to read lots of words.

That being said, don't really have an alternative to Plum and will lend a half-hearted sword there while I get current.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Plum

Hi zakk!

[Nachomamma8]

Forgot to check the votecount. Pretty elated I didn't hammer!

[Nachomamma8]

And I've still been reading this game by boys and pieces because shiny thing here and shiny player there is distracting me, but I actually think that I'm going to aim for a catchup wall (sorry Vi ) it's the easiest way for me to get invested and load the game and get my head in a space where I am ready to kick ass and chew bubblegum.

[Nachomamma8]

how about you talk to me, Nacho~

If you're still around, would love to!

[Nachomamma8]

Would you please provide links.
In addition, you're also going to need to provide someone to take your place on the scum list. That would be much more interesting.

Spoiler: Exhibit A

Subject: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

It's our scumread on Nacho that is strong.

Titus believes that he's aiming to be the most credible person rather than finding scum. The theory spec, the sudden unnatural confidence in Kagami scum, how he's not harassing anyone like his town self. I was also recently scum with Nacho. He always seems reasonable, and here, I think that I found the chink in the armor.

Why is pirate mollie vexing us? It's a good question and a worthy one to ask if we're meant to move past this distracting bump that her replacement has been.

I'll tell you.

You know what I find creepy?

Men and women who desire women to stay at a high school mental age. This isn't even possible without mental illness or an extremely isolated upbringing; mainly due to maturity, life experience, and the development of the pre-frontal cortex that ends around the mid twenties. You know the women that fake high pitch excited voices or shy little squeaks, all the time, for every conversation? It's inauthentic like commercial orange juice. Watch a documentary on that, that shit ain't good for you.

Anyway, some people get off to the eternal youth thing. Personally, I find it disgusting. It reminds me of how painfully tight binding is applied to the feet of young Chinese girls to prevent them from growing bigger, all in a vain and selfish bid to display status and beauty, or plainly, to satisfy twisted erotic fantasies, stemming from the darkest recesses of the human mind, no fucks given about the suffering and deformation it causes to these girls.

When pirate mollie types that way, that's literally what I think of. The try-hard, yes daddy I will be your perfect little princess forever, fake persona that those women put on. She's doing the online version of that. That's why I think she needs help.

Spoiler: Exhibit B

Subject: Pathfinder Mafia - GAME OVER

I have been waiting to /replace into this game for awhile now - this playerlist is seriously awesome.

Unvote

May not get to reading tonight as I'll be out for a few hours.

What happened to your avatar?

I'm going to start reading new posts starting about 2 pages ago to get a handle on what's going on.

Spoiler: Exhibit C

Subject: —Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

Gentlemen, let's be reasonable. Voting for me for being complimentary and expressing my approval of you is like feeding your dog when he's begging for food while you're eating. You're not reinforcing the behavior you want to elicit here.

Spoiler: Dee

Subject: New York 182 - Game Over

vote: gork

Spoiler: Vi

Subject: Paradise Lost - [Game Over]

Equinox what kind of sexual partner do you like?

While I didn't look at his alignment in that last link, I don't really think I need to.

As for who could replace me... Zik seems like the answer you want. Not really sure, haven't actually read the game in full and like a normal person and will probably hold off on doing so until a computer comes my way.

[Nachomamma8]

?

[Nachomamma8]

Awww man

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, talk to me you fucko.

What name to I give to Vi to get a town read???

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I think that your push on Master Zik, while I don't really agree with it, was actually pretty town as far as town reads on you go!

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, talk to me you fucko.

He isn't a fucko.

Currently, Nachomamma8 is imitating the traditional Treant style, while taking on the form of a Groot.

NO

[Nachomamma8]

I really don't like the sheeping onto VI on the last page. I have a hard time picturing Viscum right now.

VOTE: plum

In Vi we sheep.

For now at least. I haven't had the time to really dig back like I should.

I agree that Quaroath looks pretty bad, actually.
I don't think he works as a Plum-buddy. Do you?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh.

Vote: Quaroath

Do you have another name? I think Sleepykrew might be a bad one too.

[Nachomamma8]

I wouldn't mind killing Salamence.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I think we need to keep pressure where we are right now.

Work with me through this piece by piece. Answer the real question:

Why did RC die?

That is still a huge question of mine missing from the giant black hole missing from me not reading Day 1.

[Nachomamma8]

The only person that actually benefits from that kill is Vi. They were set up as twin town leaders, one dies, it looks like scum is whittling away at the block. This gives Vi a great deal more power today, and allows her to push for a mislynch that will answer the "why aren't you dead?" question. I'm thinking of who else would benefit from the shot but coming up short.

[Nachomamma8]

That's a good post from RC.

[Nachomamma8]

The kind of post that could easily break the tipping point between two wagons, don't you think?

Definitely, I see your point.

[Nachomamma8]

I do think Plum is probably the best lynch. She's not where I want to direct my attention right now, though; lynching her is terrible for accomplishing what I'm trying to accomplish at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

I need a very good sense of the game state before we go to night. My role is such that it has the potential to cause pain if used properly but I can't use it properly like this.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll explain what I'm doing better when I'm thinking straight but I hope you have an idea what I'm getting at re: Plum push not giving me what I need.

[Nachomamma8]

Also it's amazing to see the deviance from Vi's take on it; Vi thinks I'm scum playing mediocrely and has a major scumread on me; you apparently don't think so highly (in one significant respect, anyway) of my play in general and don't share the scumread per se but are happy to vote me. So, uh, thanks, I guess.

By saying that I didn't think this play was atypical of you what I meant was that you sometimes have a tendency to fall into lurking circles (play lurky, get overwhelmed, try to catch up, get more overwhelmed) which is a tendency that I understand completely because I get sucked into them as well.

It's a part of why I am uneasy pressuring you at this point in time: I'm not confident on your lynch, and I don't think that pushing for your death for reasons you can't really defend is giving you the best chance to make your alignment clear, and would rather engage you by getting your opinion on things that aren't yourself. I'm sorry; I didn't mean to infer that you were a bad player, I just didn't word my point well and hope I've rectified that at least somewhat.

[Nachomamma8]

like why continue despite everything to really read both me and Vi strongly as scum without recognizing, let alone addressing, the elephant in the room there?

I don't see what motivation zakk really has as scum to push you and Vi as scum together; if he were trying to mislynch Vi, I'd expect him to either A) address the elephant in the room if he was trying to make Vi look bad from a scumflip, or B) make an "if Plum is town, Vi is scum" type of conditional if he was trying to make Vi look bad off your town flip. The path he's taken doesn't really offer any advantages from a scum perspective and seems genuine enough where I actually think it makes him look pretty good.

[Nachomamma8]

Ehhh. Kinda weird overall, but the most salient reading of Salamance wrt me is, in my view, that Salamance read the early wagon on me as scummy early and that read lodged in his head and has sort of overinformed his reads in stuff relating to me since then; he lacks any substantive explication of the read on me and not much attempt at reevaluation of the initial read on the earliest Plum wagon.

Hmmm. Why do you draw this conclusion instead of the more obvious and more intuitive one where his early town read you is as weak and inconsistent as it is because he's white knighting you to gain cred from the wagon but still would like to see you lynched?

[Nachomamma8]

I do not agree with this, based upon the evidence you have provided. See below.

I don't really agree with it anymore either!

For context: I was playing with ABR in the first three links, I'd heard about the fourth. Didn't read the fifth. The only part I read up to in ABR's ISO was the part where he said that he wasn't creepy but everyone who read him as creepy had predatory minds or something like that, which seemed Ile something he was more likely to say when engaged and actually playing. I didn't know that his scum-apathy wore off, so the two page ISO in paradise lost and the posts like the one I quoted seemed like the townABR I remembered of late.

[Nachomamma8]

but I think there is a real (albeit subtle) difference that comes through when he is town as opposed to when he is scum. In #4, he was Town.

I don't think the level of engagement and pushing that ABR displayed in that game was his normal level; team mafia pushes people to play harder and better than they normally do and I think the atmosphere affected him profoundly. I am not really interested in doing the effort to back up this hypothesis, though: I thought there was an obvious trend in ABR's posting that was easy to identify and that's the only reason I brought up his posts in the first place

[Nachomamma8]

I gotta ask, what are you trying to say here, because I feel like you are really misrepping this.

I think some scum players have a tendency to sort of hide behind a strong town player's pushes, especially especially especially if that player's push is wrong. The quotes I pulled up seem like a pretty strong example of that.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, my plum vote can no longer be considered sheepish. It's my own.

Because she used spoilers in her wall...?
I know everyone has made this point, but still :/

[Nachomamma8]

I have absolutely no interest in discussing what Albert did because imnot going to waste my time reading his posts. I am immensely disappointed you haven't addressed anything I did.

Will read your wall later.

[Nachomamma8]

Really would be immensely immensely displeased if the day ended before I properly caught up.

[Nachomamma8]

not worth reading?

Mostly this.

[Nachomamma8]

He gets distracted pretty easily by stuff that I don't think are alignment indicative, ignores stuff that I do find alignment indicative, and pushes small tells much farther than he ever should.

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

good god dude no

[Nachomamma8]

no more

[Nachomamma8]

Every time you're about to call me scum, I want you to look at Groot, count to 100, then count back to 0. If you still have feelings of me being scum, take a deep breath and repeat the exercise.

I haven't posted here because I'm waiting for my laptop back so I can properly catch up.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, can you at least state any gutreads (any read you may have developed at the top of your head) now, so we can have something from you?

Sure!

I think the scum team is Master, Hamster, and someone else!

[Nachomamma8]

Salamence?

[Nachomamma8]

you're trying to dodge ABR and criticise him and distance yourself from him, because you know he was scum, because you're scum.

Why do I care about dodging and distance and criticizing him as scum? I didn't have to bring him up as soon as I replaced in if I were the case. I could have very reasonably replaced in, posted catchup thoughts, then, when prodded on ABR, said that I don't really feel like defending him and thus distancing and dodging is over. ABR and I don't scumhunt the same way. We don't work well together. I'm not going to put a large amount of stock in his thoughts unless we can work over reads together and I feel the way that he's treating my criticisms is reasonable. Sorry. That hasn't happened here.

Because, by your own admission, you're not really caught up or motivated in this game. To have such solid opinions about everyone BUT me feels like a conscious choice to avoid me.

I disagree pretty strongly with this. Players like Vi and I are familiar enough with you to at least attempt reading you. Other players in this game are not at all very familiar with reading you that they usually don't understand your depth of play and thus are happy to provide whatever surface-reads based on whatever mumbo jumbo they come up with. Players like Plum are stuck in that awkward middle where they're familiar enough to know that you're a good player, but not familiar enough to actually be able to read you.

I'm all but caught up in this game, and I'm feeling reasonably motivated, actually. I'm going to try to keep it that way.

Could you not ignore me completely?
I understand that you're being pulled in a lot of different directions this game, but I made effort (on a phone!) to engage you specifically and would like at least an acknowledgement of that.

Juls is scum because she vote hops onto RC, without any reasoning, when the wagon has a very weak premise. She interacts with him, but doesn't interact in a way that shows she's suspicious of him, but only wants to ask for reads from him. Later on, when Vi makes a crap case on Plum, Juls joins right on over, without much reasoning here either. Later on, Jazz catches her on a contradiction. She stated that she felt RC/VI, but was voting Plum. She never spoke up against RC/Vi at all.

This is a bad suspicion to have; Juls constantly said that she was busy, didn't have time, was trying to catch up but couldn't, then got replaced. What this tells me is that all of the "I'm busy" posts were truthful, which is reinforced by the fact that Juls isn't a shy poster when scum and this is probably the most inactive I've ever seen. Thus things like "vote hops without reasoning", "doesn't interact in a way that demonstrates her suspicion" are more likely attributed to being busy than being scum. The contradiction Jazz pointed out wasn't a contradiction; Juls noted a possible partner tell at the time, she didn't say that RC/Vi were her strongest suspicions.

Vi's early game consists of joking around, and not doing much. Juls pulls her in (for a weird reason), and from then on, Vi starts doing a bit more. Right after Jules asks RC for reads, Vi makes a Plum case on the next page. Yet, it isn't really something that is scummy, but null. Later on, she asks to discuss reads with RC, who at this time, she doesn't appear to have a read on. They discuss, and she says she has 3 reads she'd like to 'cast a net on' (paraphrase). Rc asks to swap in Kinetic for one of the three, and she's alright with that. This is something to note when looking at her interaction with Jazz. Really, I find her play to be lazy, and being content with whatever lynch isn't herself.

You say that Vi's case on Plum is not scummy, but null (aka not doing much, is being lazy or mediocre), but your case on Vi is a mirror of the case on Plum; the only difference is that it's not really that applicable to Vi.

holy god that catchup ;-;

[Nachomamma8]

I actually don't understand how you liked LLD's vote on SK, when it was unknown if it was a joke vote or serious vote. Unless you meant you liked it either way (joke or serious?). I could understand the like if LLD stated it was serious before, yet that was not the case.

This is a weak thing to focus on. If you like a vote, you assume it is serious.

I like this observation from Quaroth.

Do you think it's an alignment indicative observation? Because it's not.

91 - I disagree with this. His questions weren't accusations, they were questions. We all do not have 100% certainty of a person's alignment unless the mod confirms that to us. Therefore, if you find something concerning, you ask. Quaroth also never voted Sala, nor did it seem like he was aiming to. Yet I do agree that Salamence comes across as townie. I do not think you are worried people may flock to him, since you yourself let people flock to Jazz. Put simply, I hate the strategy some people have of "Never question your town reads" because it doesn't make any sense.

These are semantics and mafia theory.
The difference between accusations and questions in this case is not significant; both are actions you take towards a scumread to develop a better read/build a case on someone to lynch them.
When you are town reading a player, you defend them from attacks to help people see what you see and decrease the chances of them being lynched.

Vi didn't say that all questioning of town reads was unacceptable, he was simply pushing back against what he felt was a bad read on his town read.

I'm still peived that she mentions she's glad that Vi is doing something now, but she didn't mention anything about her lack of action before. She is downplaying her own actions, when she should be treating everyone equally. Instead of saying "You are right, I am being useless, so is everyone" she should be saying "You most of all Vi, were being useless and only did so due to Juls poking you, into making a crap case on me."

I think that Plum's response was appropriate; Vi wasn't being more useless than everyone else and he wasn't prodded by Juls into making the case against Plum because Juls prodded him (Juls didn't have the kind of clout to prod anyone into doing anything by that stage). Plum's point in (well, at least Vi is doing something) was that the wagon on her was healthier for the gamestate than literally everything else at that point, which is also a true statement.

I don't think he's scum anymore, yet I still don't find this believable at all.

Could you go into this read a bit more (in response to Master Zik's 252)?

Ignoring that fact that Jazz rightly called her out, Vi just went on to point out Jazz's post, knowing Vi herself had done the same. Manipulative.

A very large part of your reading of this exchange here screams confirmation bias in that Vi has been useless and anyone that agrees with that assertion is correct and anyone that disagrees with that assertion is incorrect. The point that he was making here is that the whole lot of words without a strong stance (Jazz didn't really have any at this point) is a scum move more likely than not; when town put a large amount of effort into the game, they form biases, find people to push. When scum put a large amount of effort in the game, they're trying to look town so can end at a point where they typed a bunch of words to look town but didn't take any strong stances because they didn't want to make any enemies.

NOTE TO SELF GET QUOTE LATER

?

The rest of your catchup, and please correct me if I'm wrong, seems more like feeding into confirmation bias/saying you like people who vote and express suspicion where you do, telling them they are wrong when your town reads don't agree with your reads, attacking your scum reads. Your case on Vi is for lazy early game play and a weak push on Plum. Both of these premises are wrong and based on early early game while ignoring Vi's play as a whole; this is not the stuff of a good case or a good read.

Hey there. I actually think your slot is town now, I just got distracted by Albert's jump on Jazz, which I realize was just him being wrong. I also think you are wrong on Vi. Do remember that Vi wasn't doing much early game, and had to be pulled in by Juls to participate, and then make a meh case on Plum, which Juls jumped on without thought. Of course, I can offer you an alternative to Plum, and that is Juls. I agree with your townread on Zakk, but not because of what you said. Finally, I think you shouldn't simply be reading Vi simply via her interaction with LLD, which I still don't find townie, with reasons as to why above. I implore you to look at her whole play, especially her early game play.

Generally, I disagree with your direction towards Quaroth and Salamence. Also, I need more from you before I have more to say about you, yet I'm fine with your slot now.

I'd be happier if you went into more about the whys of the agree/disagree instead of telling me you agree/disagree; I understand this was the tail end of your catchup so I'm sure you got pretty lazy, but I'm probably the most willing of the player list to engage these reads the way you want them engaged and were reading the game pretty much completely differently AND I have a town read on you and you currently have a town read on me.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Quaroath - What are your reads on me?

Town, but I thought that was obvious from my posts so far, even if it wasn't stated explicitly.

HOLY FUCKING GOD THIS GAME IS TOO DENSE NO RANMARU NO
RANMARU PLEASE NEVER AGAIN NO

Vote: Master Zik

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not trying to get him to make better posts. I want you guys to understand that SleepyKrew acts in this manner as Town, and thus, you are correct, that my read on him is likely Town.

However, I have no intention to "motivate him to make better posts". As a Master, he seems to be suffering from a case of old and tired bones; he seems to be in a slump and incapable of performing at his prime capacity until he undergoes therapy.

I would be thrilled if he could let another capable Master enter the game and engage with our highly desired player list instead. As scum, we would have a more challenging game, and it would only be fair to his teammates. As town, the benefits are obvious.

I don't think Master Zik thought his posts would cause SK to replace out; many people had called for SK's replacement by that point and so Zik being yet another person pushing for the replace-out isn't that revolutionary to me.

LLD, were you looking at something else?

[Nachomamma8]

Vi's early game consists of lollygagging, joking for far too long and not scumhunting enough. Null by itself, but along with her whole play, it adds up.

Whenever you're making a case where "joking far too long" is a piece of your case, however small, you are tunneling for dumb reasons. There is literally nothing alignment-indicative about joking; it can be used in place of actual content, sure, but it takes a certain brand of player to joke instead of fake scum hunt as scum and Vi is not that brand of player. Your interpretation of Vi not scum hunting enough is an inability of yours to read behind the walls; just because people aren't posting lots of words or really really thorough cases doesn't mean they're not engaged and doesn't mean they aren't looking.

Her 'start' on scumhunting, in 130, was nothing but null on Plum.

The attack for the explanation, in full, is probably something along the lines of that Plum was commenting on a bad gamestate while doing nothing to correct it, which, believe it or not, is not null and a fine catch for page 6. This perfectly exemplifies why you are going so wrong with your vote on Vi: you are not reading between the lines.

In 273, Vi critisizes Jazz for having a large scumlist, while having done the same herserlf.

I talked about why this was an incorrect attack before, but I'll reiterate here: the point was that there was a whole lot of effort without strong stances (when you say everyone is scummy, you don't actually have any scum reads since everything in mafia is relative). "Everyone is scummy" is not a proper reflection of Vi's reads at this point based on 204 alone.

In her 416 Vi asks a leading question, asking LLD who out of the three voters on Jazz would be scum. She re-phrases her question in 419, askng If one scum jumped on Jazz, who would she think it was. She doesn't consider all the angles, such as non-voters, or the chance and timing of the wagon. I do not find this pro-town.

There was a mafia theory point that explained the reason why he approached the wagon in the way that he did. Do you disagree with this particular point of theory (in that wagons are good if they are on scum or if they lead to outing scum)? Because if not, those other angles that you say Vi should be considering don't really matter all that much, do they?

In her 516, she mentions Abr is obv scum, a change from her earlier picks of Vezo > Al > Quaroth. While mentioning in her 479 that she reads Plum as Prob scum. Yet she plops her vote on Prob Scum Plum and never votes her 'obv scum' read of Al. This does not show a pro-town drive to scumhunt.

This, quite frankly, is stupid. What motivation does Vi, as scum, have to vote a "prob scum" read over an obvious scum read? Town motivation for it seems obvious; could be accounting for bias, could be that Plum would be easier to get a wagon started on. But why make a move like that as scum?

and in her post 720, she casts a wide net of scum reads. She also changes the situation of the Jazz wagon to being mostly town, and switches gears to her own wagon and the Vezo wagon. The change doesn't make sense to me from a pro-town mindset.

I assume she changes the situation of the Jazzwagon to "possible all town" based on changes in reads based on my opening, which isn't really that ridiculous to me. I don't understand how it doesn't make sense to look at more wagons after more wagons are formed, but maybe I'm missing something obvious here?

[Nachomamma8]

I like the part where Vi was flustered and expressed signs of unease when I brought up that SleepyKrew should be replaced.

Knowing that retired SleepyKrew had a tendency to doze off at inopportune timings, and a younger and fresher Master would bring vigor into the town and revive the slot, would always be a situation that scum would object to.

LLD, this reads to me like Zik pushing for Sleepykrew to being replaced for towncred, especially when he's trying to leverage it into a scumread on Vi, especially considering:

Mod: Please prod SleepyKrew with intent to replace overNight.

[Nachomamma8]

That looks more terrible than I thought, I'm sorry, I fucking hate walls, I'm just trying to catch up more quickly. I'll divide the pages into smaller increments for the next 14...to be done later. >_>

I PROMISE IT'LL BE OVER SOON.

Making your catchup with quotes as opposed to links, even though it makes the posts much longer, makes it much easier for me to read since I'm usually on mobile and I can't tell what you're talking about unless I click the links, wait for the new page to load, scroll down what you're referring to, then click back, scroll down to what your post, and then thinking about it.

Nacho, I don't understand why you say that you haven't posted in this thread due to a computer issue but that computer issue has apparently has not prevented you from posting in other threads. Please explain.

I've posted plenty in this thread without a computer.
The thing that I won't post in this thread without a computer is a full catchup.
Do you think I've been using not having a computer as an excuse to lurk?

Vi, the only part where I feel inclined to very strongly disagree you is with your trepidation with the zakk slot; still doesn't read scum to me at all.

[Nachomamma8]

For future reference, zakk's post 884 is what you should be looking for in a situation like this, given that it's lazy sniping on a prospective lynchee.

Like if zakk was trying to get you mislynched, he wouldn't be lazy sniping and he wouldn't be voting me.

[Nachomamma8]

263...this kind of association sucks, especially with someone like Vezok who always seems to be mislynch bait regardless of how town he is.

What was he actually saying there? I didn't understand it when I first read it.

287...ok this is where I can see the manipulative side of Vi, which is disappointing. Shutting down conversation and not being transparent/offering whatever reads you can is actively anti-town. Why did you expect him to answer (truthfully) if you weren’t willing to do the same?

The point of asking the question in the first place was to make a point, in that the point was that Jazzmyn hadn't done anything that was particularly unfakeable and there was nothing that she could really point to in her ISO that made scum reads on her stupid. Vi electing not to go into self-meta at that point (which is probably the route she would have taken) is fine and well and good because it wouldn't have helped Jazzmyn understand where she was coming from better and it would have cluttered up the game for no good reason.

319...I don’t like that Plum continues to avoid Jazz’s question despite being assured it’s a legitimate question. Even if townPlum thinks it’s coming from scumJazz, she’s not even voting him to make that clear, so it’s just being unnecessarily antagonistic which *I think* is out of character for her.

The sense I got from Plum's responses is just that it was a bad question to ask. I don't think it was unnecessarily antagonistic; I just don't think Plum felt like wasting her time on an answer that wasn't going to be understood.

Page 15 is also lame, but gives me pings on LLD’s reentrance to the game. I phrase it like that because she’s been contributing a lot of one-liners so far, but then gets in a shouting match with ABR, so now it kind of looks like when the spotlight is on her, she needs to contribute in a more significant way. It looks like now she’s taking control in a way scum might when they feel like they’ve lost it in 353, 355, 357, and 365.

I disagree pretty strongly here. Using people as sounding boards is a matter of play style, and "do you want to talk?" is a pretty common phrase from people with that play style.

432...I like this observation from Master Zik. What’s even more interesting is that Vi says Jazz is an easy target but goes for Vezok? What was/is the difference between them that made Vezok scum while implying that Jazz is town?

I think it's a dumb observation. Calling a people an easy target is yes, approaching the game from a scum perspective but that's something all townies should be doing so they can figure out what scum is doing. Calling someone an easy target doesn't mean that easy targets in the player list can't be scum; can't speak for why Vi thought vezok was scum because I haven't read posts centering around there a ton, but Jazz was probably town from her conviction and genuineness while vezok probably didn't demonstrate that to the same extent.

465...ok so here’s Vi’s hated townie claim (ish) that everyone’s been talking about.

Claim seemed town to me because it came late.
If Vi was scum, I can imagine Vi would't really expect to get wagonned much, so an early hated townie claim explains why she's alive late game. As town, she's expecting to get killed, so she doesn't mention shit about it. Negative utility town is something that almost certainly exists in the game.

[Nachomamma8]

I was not asking what kinds of expectations you look for to get town reads (but thanks for the links which I will take a look at some time if/when they become relevant). I was asking you whether you agreed with Nacho about his characterization of the links to Albert's games that he posted, because his characterization is essentially the opposite to mine. I would still like you to respond to that.

Do you see why I formed the impressions of him that I did?

[Nachomamma8]

I was re-reading and realized that Plum may have been going somewhere with her #787. Yet, she doesn't come to the conclusion that she's suspicious or weird from it, just that she's just townish over that. I just don't think Plum as scum would have reason to be challenging LLD here unless LLD if town.

I agree that Plum wouldn't make that post if she was scumbuddies with LLD.

Alright, I'll drop my point on the RC/vi thing. Yet you can't deny that her interaction with RC was weird when he was voting him. I can't verify that ever because she's not here now to explain that. Ok, it's possible she may have been busy, but why vote at all when busy? She had enough time to unvote and re-vote even after RC gave an answer to her. So if she really was just being on there for... wait. The underlined doesn't make sense if she had enough time to unvote and re-vote even after RC explained. Anyway, going on with my thought anyway, if she was really being on there for pressure, she would have stayed off after his explanation. Or at least that's what I think a townie would be doing.

When I'm busy and don't really have time to flesh out thought processes or pursue sophisticated lines of thought, I try to make sure I have

something

on my plate, and the very very first thing I try to provide is a vote. If she was on their for pressure, he explained and she felt better, I could see her staying on the wagon because she didn't really know where else to go. That's what I would do as town without time in her situation.

You mean that my case is all null-tells, and just shows Vi being *useless*? I don't think that's the case here man. I think I know a crap case from a good one, and I'm sure I had alot more than that Plum case. In fact, I feel Plum is more of an example of a side-lining person, who just hasn't really gotten a good suspect out genuinely (just from her observation on LLD), but for some reason isn't pushing it as hard.

Your case, for the most part, shows Vi being useless (which she hasn't been). I don't think we are very good judges of when our cases are bad or good when we feel very strongly about them.

Wish you could have waited on the Vi case so LLD could talk to me about it first, as I don't suspect you and would want to see what she does.

When you put something big out into the thread like that, I want to respond to it whenever able since I'm not likely to respond to it in pieces and me actually having enough time to respond to it all at once is rare.

[Nachomamma8]

many people had called for SK's replacement by that point and so Zik being yet another person pushing for the replace-out isn't that revolutionary to me.

They had? Who are these "many people" to whom you refer? I don't recall anyone calling for Sleepy to be force-replaced prior to Master Zik doing so (and I agree with the call for Sleepy to be force-replaced) but this post looks wonky.

Regards,
Jazz

The Vi post I quoted is the main one I was referring to.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think about Zik?

[Nachomamma8]

Because I agree with you about Salamence, I really do. But Zik wagon seems like the stuff of dreams.

[Nachomamma8]

Yet does that mean I shouldn't ask/talk about it at all? From Plum's reasoning, it shows that she wasn't sure herself if the vote was serious or not, as she was stating possibilities as to why LLD might have voted that way. Unless you think I'm wrong and can give a different observation to Plum's reasoning here:

The thing she was unsure about was the SK-LLD dynamic; it would have been scummier to respond to a serious vote with a joke response if SK didn't know LLD, but he did, and thus it wasn't as scummy. The assumption that LLD's vote was serious persisted in all of her posts.

It's pretty hard for me to find anything alignment indicative of Quaroth. It's why I have a null on him. I want to see more of him too so I can get a better bead on him. Nothing obvious strikes me from his slot, and I would like to hear why you suspect him. Actually, I'd like a little more reasoning than your #693. This was just you giving a name to Vi for her to re-consider you, but now we are past that. Are you going to stick to that for now?

Sure, I'll expand on Quaroath in a separate post.

Yet how does that help Vi read Quaroth? Because of that, I have less to work with in terms of reading Quaroth and so do you. Now we'll never know the results of his query, whether it would be good or not. Do you agree with Salamence being town enough to not even question?

At the time, Vi was townreading Quaroath and Salamence. Convincing Quaroath to focus on someone that's not Salamence causes Quaroath to push either a null read or a scumread which is much more beneficial to the town as a whole. I don't think Salamence was extremely town at that point, no, but I see why Vi would disagree.

I wasn't saying that Vi was being more useless then everyone else, I was saying she was being just as useless. LLD was too, and so was Albert, your predecessor. But I'm not using that against you, because it doesn't line up with the rest of your slots play, even though you say I'm only focusing on one part of her play. (Hello, what part of Vi's play did I miss then?)

Everyone in the game was being useless before Vi pushed Plum. Plum's response was to accept her part of the play and attempt to do better. You said it is scummy because the proper response should have been for her to say "no Vi, you were being useless too! everyone was being useless!". Plum acknowledged her piece of the problem and acknowledged that Vi was trying to rectify it. The response you proposed would have done nothing.

As a result, I completely understand where Plum is coming from.

The elements you're missing in Vi's play are mostly why she's doing what she does and failing to look at anything deeper than surface implications.

Yes, this explanation if laughable at best, but that's the only problem I have with his slot:

So he's town?
Or scum?
orrr...?

Look, I town read you, and you are disagreeing with me. I don't find you suspicious for it. Yet, I find if I see someone thinking the same as I do, I would find it more likely to be of a town-mindset then a scum-mindset.

This is the trend that I'm referring to.

Also, I find town is more likely to post something that shows that is honest, such as Albert (your predecessor), saying that he was going to wait because at the moment, he had nothing, instead of trying hard to not post things like that, unless they are incompetent as scum.

This specific bit seems to acknowledge Vi's problem with Jazz's early post :/
Do you see the point she was making now, or...?

I do want to ask, since you have played with Vi before, how good at reading Vi are you? What would you expect of a ScumVi, TownVi? How are you reading SingerSigner?

I haven't played with scum-singersinger much, but I can't exactly remember misreading her and can townread her very confidently.
Vi's a bit more complicated; I can normally hammer down a townread there pretty confidently as well, but I also haven't seen her as scum much and she doesn't have as strong as a preference for alignment as singersigner does. I have read games where she was scum and I haven't been incredibly impressed by any of her scumgames, though, so I can't imagine she'd be too difficult to read in a single faction game.

Of a scumVi, I would expect reasonable explanations and reasonable pushes that didn't always flip town, I expect smart nightkills, and I expect her to have less flair than she does as town.

As town, I expect what I see here in that she's less image conscious, she does a lot more vote-flipping, she views the game as an attempt to solve it as a whole as opposed to in tiny little pieces.

Salamence, I can see now as he's not even here, but the same is with other players and Quaroth, which annoys me a bit. Plus I don't remember your actual reasoning for Salamence, actually.

Salamence reason really isn't special; I'm townreading other players for the most part and he has been blatantly actively lurking.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty confident that Plum is town.
Not abundantly confident, necessarily, but confident.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh hey there are fewer than two days until deadline. It's time for people to stop lurking.

I suppose there's something to these requests.

Mod: Please extend the deadline by 24 hours to accommodate Juls' V/LA.

This should probably give her about a day and a half to get together. Of course, since I'm accusing her of being scum, this is a request made to my detriment, but I'm willing to do it, because only lurkers, idiots, and scum are voting me.

Mod: Please prod SleepyKrew with intent to replace overNight.

Mod: Please prod Master Zik

, who is currently lurking his pants off.

As for my part, given vezokpiraka's recent posting I will at the very least not protest that wagon.

Jazz, this post is what I was referring to.
I assumed other people asked for SK to be replaced.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll take Vi's reversal on Ranmaru for what it's worth; I'd still love to understand why Ranmaru continues talking about scumreads the way he does
(e.g. "I do want to say this [unvoting Ranmaru] isn't enough for me to flip a read on you [Vi]", still talking less to a scum suspect than to a sort of abstract medium onto which he is projecting and defending reads). Also, while LLD is talking about weird things Ranmaru has said in discussing reading her, there was that time he effectively said, to the post where LLD voted me Day 1 "LLD is Town for this . . . conditional on Plum being scum" only in far more words.

Ranmaru posts too many words for me to actually read him as scum or consider him as scum.
Maybe this is a dumb reason to read someone; I've certainly called that reason dumb in the past.
But that's just too many words to be scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm actively trying not to be condescending. However, there are only so many ways one can go about saying "everything you're doing is wrong; please change".

I'm not seeing it. It seems to me that there are scads of ways of delivering such a message without being condescending, rude and obnoxious, as you have been in this game. Your posts seem designed specifically to demoralize rather than to stimulate or illuminate.

Regards,
Jazz

Are you familiar with Vi's play in general?

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, how long do you plan on being around for?

[Nachomamma8]

Are you familiar with Vi's play in general?

I think so. How about you?

Regards,
Jazz

I'd consider myself pretty familiar, yeah.
Why do you think that Vi's condescending tone is more likely to be coming from scum than town?
I mean, I understand that one game, but Vi is generally pretty unforgiving of bad logic or playstyles she doesn't mesh well with.

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, I'd like to hash out differences on Vi within the next two hours, if at all possible. You think we can make it there?

[Nachomamma8]

This is pretty much her early game posts, most of them. While others were wagoning and creating discussion, Vi herself had been stuck in joke mode, and the only 'action' she did was to tell Hamtaro to look elsewhere. I ignored the first one, as sometimes people joke post during rvs but move away from it and become serious. Null by itself, but adds up in the grand scheme of things.

No, it's not scummy in the grand scheme of things either :/. Jokeposting instead of scumhunting is scummy if and only if you are too shitty of a scum player to fakescumhunt. Vi does not fit in this category.

I dislike that you go into a tangent on ReaperCharlie, when Salamence asked you on a stance on RC. It would be alright if you answered shortly after, but you didn't. So it was unknown. This also helps stagnate the RVS even further than it was already. LLD also helped in stagnating it by further continuing in this fashion. This shows more motivation to joke post rather than scumhunt.

Don't care if people have jokes or tangents or whatever as long as the scumhunting is there. Whether these things are present or not present is usually very player specific; if someone has a meta of fluffing instead of scumhunting, ok. If they don't, all I care about is a lack of scumhunting; I do not give a shit whether they fluff or not except in extreme circumstances. Vi also probably didn't respond about the RC suspicion because she didn't seem to have one (hence #130). Why do you think she avoided Salamence's question as scum?

I really dislike this. She's saying she never actually suspected her there, but she did ask RC to work with her in that direction. Why talk seriously about someone you have no idea on, and then proceed to say that she's now posting like scum?

Not making a case is not equivalent to having no idea on a player.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: I'll be replying to that one instead of the other first then, but at the same time I want to see you expand on Quaroth. It's good to see your differing views on my case, but I still don't really have much of who you think should go instead of Vi.

Zikk/Quaroath are my strong scumreads.
Again, I'll expand on them, but I can expand on that in the future and have you respond to it in the future but derailing Viwagon is probably my first priority right now because I am much more confident in Vi!town than I am in either Zikk or Quaroath scum.

[Nachomamma8]

And it's a very huge priority for me because I think that you're very very town and I also think that you can do some amazing things for this game but I don't think amazing things will come from you focusing in on a player that I very strongly feel is town.

[Nachomamma8]

This is also a concern. She visibly doesn't care about swapping out suspects, quite the large pool there. I just find this as lazy, and feel she should care more as to being right and finding scum, not just swapping whoever. Her allowing him to direct her like this shows she isn't really doing much in the way of scumhunting. This goes along with her laziness in early game, and her crap case on Plum.

Vi has a style of play that has her pushing to form wagons early game, then deciding from how the wagon forms whether to keep it or to find scum on the wagon. When you possess this style of play, it's very important to have a fluid lynch pool early game because it means wagons get formed more quickly. Her willingness to swap suspects out easily isn't that crazy because early game, she shouldn't have too many reads.

Laziness isn't scummy to me. I don't think her case on Plum was terrible.

Now comparing this to Vi's early game play, I highly dislike her slot because she's playing around with everyone, being manupulative, without having a strong, developed scum read. Again, she's quite open with whatever, as I have said in response to her 204.

What you see as manipulative re: her specific posts talking with players is using others as sounding boards similar to how you're using players as sounding boards right now or how I used LLD as a sounding board earlier. Most players in this game who are any good as town have interactions with town players that they feel are town and competent in order to talk reads with, and Vi relies on this method especially heavily. If you feel she's being manipulative, say how she's being manipulative.

Ignoring that fact that Jazz rightly called her out, Vi just went on to point out Jazz's post, knowing Vi herself had done the same. Pot calling the kettle black.

I refuted this a little while ago. What do you think of the counterpoint in that the focus wasn't that Jazz has given a lot of scumreads but that Jazz had put a lot of effort and a lot of words into describing a lack of stances?

[Nachomamma8]

What I find odd is, why Vi and LLD are discussing re-evaluation. Earlier, she made a case on Plum, and was voting Kinetic 'per RC'. Yet, she was pushing Jazz at the same time. She was way too open with voting whoever isn't herself.

There's never a wrong time to reevaluate a push.
I've explained how a larger vote pool (it's not really fair to call it a lynch pool) is conducive to Vi's method of scumhunting.

Vi asks LLD which of the three voters is scum, or most likely to be scum. It's good to look at possible angles, but she excluded the angle of people voicing their support without votes, and that is very important. LLD tells her it was a leading question, which is correct. Vi then re-phrases her question.

"Who on this wagon is most likely to be scum?" is not really a leading question. And, based on the playstyle that I've outlined a couple times, it makes sense.

She then asks "If you think one scum did jump on jazz, who would you think it was?" LLD chooses Quaroth in this case. Vi then states that she thinks Vezo was actually pretty opportunistic with his jump to Jazz. But that's IF a scum did jump with their vote. How can she verify that one scum did vote, for her to then be safe in choosing from the voters?

If Vi's incorrect that scum jumped on the wagon, he pushes the person who had the worst vote, brings them up to a wagon, decides they are likely town based on their reactions, finds someone else who was on the wagon. Being wrong about this question doesn't necessarily lead to a mislynch, so you don't 100% have to be correct that one scum did vote on the mislynch wagon.

She posts stating Jazz is an easy lynch to justify her her leading theory, saying she'd be surprised if scum didn't go there (which somehow means scum did go there in her mind?). Yet, we all know that this doesn't make it any more true, we still don't know if one did or not. Put simply, it was not pro-town to arrive at this conclusion, without factoring in all the angles. What I feel she excluded were those were voiced agreement of Jazz scum, but did not vote. Those are just as important. The townie thing for Vi to do, would be considering what LLD said, and adding those who voiced support on the wagon as well. Yet, even so, you can't expect there to be a high chance of scum being on that wagon, since it wasn't a lynch, and it wasn't something scum needed to 'be on' at the time. So it might be even better to drop the whole 'there is scum on jazz's wagon, pick one'. Yet Vi didn't even consider this option either. Therefore this makes me think Vi is not town.

People who express vote but didn't vote are not as important as people who voted, for whatever reason. Voting a player is definite evidence of pushing someone to get lynched. Expressing suspicion is not.

Again, there not being scum on the Jazzwagon doesn't lead to a mislynch, and thus it isn't a fact that is necessary for Vi's line to be productive.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you familiar with Vi's play in general?

I think so. How about you?

Regards,
Jazz

I'd consider myself pretty familiar, yeah.
Why do you think that Vi's condescending tone is more likely to be coming from scum than town?

It appears that you agree that Vi is, indeed, being rude and condescending (I don't know whether you would also adopt "obnoxious" so I've left that out) to the recent replacements. Why do you think that her condescension is more likely to be coming from town-Vi than scum-Vi?

Regards,
Jazz

I think that Vi's greatest flaw as a player is that he isn't patient enough as he should be, and that he can often shut fellow town players out when it's not exactly warranted. I don't think the rude and condescending behavior make Vi more likely to be town than scum; I just think that it can be there as either alignment. It's the play outside of that which reads really really town to me.

[Nachomamma8]

You know, I don't know why she tells Jazz to place her vote on Plum or 'another wagon that may gain traction'. Why Plum over Albert? Why hasn't she even pushed for Albert? She considers him obv scum, so it's just a disconnect to me.

So there's a bunch of posts uncomfortable with this assertion, and my main point is why does Vi do that as scum? "It's a disconnect" isn't a good enough point to me because there's no way in hell that Vi just doesn't notice he's calling his #2 scumread obvscum and his #1 scumread probscum; there's no player that I've ever met that is dumb enough to do something like that.

781

Here, you can see that Vi isn't as serious on Plum, nor Albert/Nacho. Remember, this was the slot she felt was obv scum, yet her actions don't show that.

Just because Vi didn't mention us?
Meh.

She has cast far too wide a net of scumreads in this post. She also now backs away from her theory that there was one scum on Jazz, and says it might be town so she can now say, that there were some scum on Vezo. She also states there are scum on her wagon, and that she'd be offended if there weren't. What I wonder, is what caused a change between the two following quotes:

A lot of posts? New townreads?
Plenty.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd consider myself pretty familiar, yeah.
Why do you think that Vi's condescending tone is more likely to be coming from scum than town?

Okay, let's back up a second. Can you point me to a game where Vi has been as rude and condescending when she's been town? If so, that might help.

Regards,
Jazz

Subject: NY 160B - Welcome to Castle Zar - TIME FOR FIREWORKS!

Vi isn’t someone to strong-arm the Town Day 1 regardless of her alignment.

...

I claimed already. This is why I get annoyed when I have to repeat things so much.

Post less.

This game Vi did pretty much nothing but snark and call for an AA policy vig.

[Nachomamma8]

Subject: Micro 59 - At one fell swoop (Game Over)

I don't get your play here, Vi. Not at all.

Sham Paragon, disgraced generation.

This game also saw a lot of shit talking to CES.

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru Nacho I want to talk with you both actually. Specifically about the Nacho/ABR thing.

Break it down to me how that isn't terribly ridiculously horrendously scummy. I don't see it.

I don't understand why I have to respect ABR's reads just because I replaced him, mainly.
Last time we played together, I correctly identified 3/4 of the scumteam. He tunneled me until I was mislynched.
Why should I put his reads above my own? Why should I care about his reads?

Like sure, if he comes up with a good point than I'll consider it, but I'm not going to specifically read his posts and I'm not going to put emphasis on reading his posts (or dead people's posts) because I don't really need to read them.

[Nachomamma8]

Plum, serious question - do you always word yours posts in the manner you are here? I don't remember you doing so in our last game together (though that was years back) and I hate digging through current meta on people because I find it warps my reads in active games.

For some reason i'm having a hard time reading your posts and not having the voice of Ford Prefect running through my head.

It's disconcerting.

I don't like this post because it comes after RC already made that point and all he's doing is riding the wave of negative sentiment against Plum. I find that a very convenient position for scum to take.

Sal, I really don't like the content (or lack thereof) for your posts.... 29 has you making excuses for a pretty useless post. I doubt that you'd get modkilled just for saying it was a serious vote that demands pressure. That's just a weak excuse. Mind you I have zero clue about your meta, but it's hard to imagine saying a vote is serious as being modkillable.

I really don't understand how Quaroath ended up voting SK instead of Salamence here.

You are with VI trying to shut down a line of questioning, thus forcing thumb twiddling? I'm trying to get answers from you but VI is attempting to undercut me.

I still want to know what your read and reasoning is for SK, regardless of her efforts to derail the question.

If this was a genuine belief, then I'd expect Quaroath to make a bigger deal out of it. Accusing someone of "shutting down lines of questioning to induce apathy", but Quaroath just sort of mentioned it and scuttled away.

This makes no sense to me. You are moving from one wagon that just broke down on a scum read to your other scum read (okay I get that part) without saying why - all game - why they are your scumreads? Are you just tunneling these two?

I don't feel like an SK wagon is getting far right now, just a general vibe I think the thread supports. If Plum is a scum read, why aren't you trying to revive the wagon there? Ya know... make a case for your belief and try to get people to vote for your suspect. Cause your' doing really poorly at that right now.

If you have this great read on SK, share it cause... unless you do I don't think it's going anywhere right now and if you are town you are just wasting valuable time. If you are scum, you are trying to wait out the day without making waves.

Saying that vezok was scum for not providing a case on his scumreads is shallow as hell and is exactly what I expect a scum vote on a mislynch wagon to look like.

VOTE: Jazz

Just ugh. Also. Not getting that she was being a hypocrite.

I really don't want to read the blowup in the last two pages.

Help me out SK, who's scum cause I suck at this whole filtering the game from personal vitriol. Be my shepard plz.

We could always fight so we get hugs if you want.

*flails hands slap fight style*

This vote also sucks hilariously hard because why the hell is he voting her, he's voting with his scumread from before and unvoting from his scumread for absolutely no reason, and because he's voting without reasons and that's why he was voting vezok earlier.

That's a total I'm annoyed with Jazz vote, not a "I think you are scum" vote.

This doesn't mesh with giving reasons why Jazz is scum earlier and not unvoting here.

Should I move my vote back to Vezok? (Where it was before Jazz annoyed me?)

yeah, cause I still do think he's scum, and other people now seem to LIKE the idea I advocated in 250 and 289.

What took ya'll so long?

VOTE: Vezok L-2

This is an awkward shuffle back onto the Vezok wagon.

Vi point I already talked about earlier.

Spoiler comment was horrible.

I mostly don't understand why anyone reads the slot as town, really.

[Nachomamma8]

What I want to know from you is, do you think she is having a good game here, or a bad game here? Why?

I think she's having a game after a long hiatus, which, so far, has been good.
I think moving around more, being wrong more is a symptom of being less confident than usual; the moves aren't actually necessary for Vi to make as scum (for example, it's actually a terrible move for Vi to move off Plum at this point unless they aren't scum together). I also think this game hasn't been very good at producing content until lately, considering replacements being a hell of a lot more invested than anyone else, which also makes it pretty difficult to get good reads and keep them. The only parts where I think Vi has actually played poorly was in her jump at you after your big case against her and in Vezok suspicion, but Vezok is a hard read to make for people not familiar with him and she backed off you quick enough for me not to be concerned with the push. I don't think it's far to hold her to the HIGHEST OF STANDARDS when she hasn't played in god knows how long.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I am wondering. How can you have such a strong town read on Vi if you haven't read D1?

Sometimes I need a lot of data to get a good read on someone.
Sometimes I don't.

[Nachomamma8]

There's diminishing returns all over the place. In fact, if Vi came to the conclusion that you were Town, I expect that she'd cut off immediately due to massive diminishing returns of staying in a wordy back-and-forth with you that wasn't liable to illuminate anything for her and possibly mire the whole Town in stuff that wasn't a really direct scumhunting effort, esp. at this point in the game.

Yeah.
If Vi pushed a wagon on someone that he thought was town 4 days before deadline, got it up to a proper wagon and then went "lol I thought he was town the whole time!!", I would strangle and blacklist.

[Nachomamma8]

Or just capitalize the I.

[Nachomamma8]

It's your lucky day, Master: I'm going through your recent posts now!
I'd be interested in seeing what's "terribly wrong" on my end.

[Nachomamma8]

An astute observation by Salamence20.

RedCoyote seems to be posting a lot of fluff for the length and frequency of his posts. It's a bad proportion.

VOTE: RedCoyote

This is a boo hiss read.
Why push RC over Vi if you're going to make a boo hiss case like this?

Zik, why have you not mentioned Kinetic once in your ISO?

Ah yes, I forgot all about him. Those vile scum tactics, removing my memory and all that...

Kinetic is also a scumread of mine. I believe that he's a partner with RedCoyote.

This post was the trigger:

I do not believe RC is worth 4 votes right now. Well, I don't believe he deserves more right now. I don't think he's as scummy as the vote count indicates.

With that being said, I'm having trouble really connecting with this game out of the gate. I think I'm going to re-read everything this weekend, and see if a full read gets some of the juices flowing. I agree with the comments that state my play has been suboptimal so far. I don't like that being the case.

My current theory is that RedCoyote is distancing from Kinetic by calling him out for his lack of content. Which is an ironic course of action. Additionally, RedCoyote's manner of doing so sounds convoluted and fake.

This is my take on the matter.

This push also seems crappy to me; I agree with whoever pointed out (Ranmaru?) that it doesn't make sense to forget a read and then when questioned on it go (oh yeah, I thought he was scum the whole time and a solid partner of scumspect #1).

I think you're scum, and I think you're caught scum. Your post is just a fancy dancy manner of deflecting my suspicion -- I have an advantage over you, because you don't know what I'm capable of, and are currently just testing the waters.

You'll have enough time to learn all about it, I promise you.

RedCoyote is scum.

This portion of the post seems vaguely townish, as did his engagement of RC/Vi earlygame, but then...

That was a very unmasterful display by all of us. How unfortunate.

VOTE: Vi

My vote goes here.

The way that he's handled the Vi suspicion today seems... strange, off. No comments on the hated townie claim, no comments that are trying to get a larger wagon on Vi, just suspecting her and floating along as he does so.

The fact that his play currently resembles his Town "meta" (i.e his recent town games that are easily mislynchable) gives me pause. Or, more acceptably, he has no discernible scum agenda in his posts.

Plum and Salamence20 are likely candidates that fit the criteria, but

I am nipping this avenue of push before more come.

Why?

Master zakk, you can't call Plum and Vi both scum at the same time. Plum looks like the designated mislynch. Either way, this does not look like a bus. Don't you find this suspicious?

I don't really like how Zikk pushed that Vi-Plum weren't bussing but never actually looked at Plum's posts individually.

The main problem here (as it is with Salamence) is simply how hard the slot fizzled out despite its hate of apathy; there's a weak as shit potshot every now and then this game day, but it hasn't at all tried to engage with people who are posting or throw is own thoughts into the fray as far as the gamestate as a whole goes.

[Nachomamma8]

Yo what's up Master Zik. Can I ask you something? What's the update on your Vi read?

I'd say that she's really good at playing scum. On the surface level, I'd be doubtful enough to retract the scumread -- but this isn't a surface-level game. I'm about to call out some parts of her posts which are clearly untrue and/or manipulative upon deeper inspection.

My scumread on her remains. I'm afraid to say that Nachomamma8 would be my first choice to look at given hypothetical pre-flip associatives.

What moves has Vi made that would make you retract your scumread on the slot if you were reading surface-level?

[Nachomamma8]

I also don't understand why you push back so hard against me for scumreading you, Zik.

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, shouldn't you be asleep?

[Nachomamma8]

Come on man, that's really shallow compared to what you churned out for Vi et al.

You can do better than that.

No. Start responding to posts, start doing things today.

[Nachomamma8]

@Zik:
The post itself is shallow because what you did early game surprised me because it actually seemed town and useful, but then it petered out so completely and thoroughly that my townread died like a dog crawling under a front porch to go to heaven in peace. The backbone for my scumread on you today is that you haven't done jack shit even though the day has seen a lot of things to comment on. If you don't want me to lynch you, do better since I know you can and have no reason not to.

[Nachomamma8]

I also felt significantly less strong about my read on you when I realized who you were, Zik.

[Nachomamma8]

I also felt significantly less strong about my read on you when I realized who you were, Zik.

What do you mean, is he an alt?

Yep.

I also felt significantly less strong about my read on you when I realized who you were, Zik.

Ah. Now that's a threat.

?

[Nachomamma8]

My meta on Plum isn't extremely strong; she's not a player I can form quick confident reads on.

I think that, as town, she has the potential to come across as very genuine and thoughtful and shows an ability to take multiple views of the game in order to build a comprehensive view of the gamestate.

As scum, she has the potential to be a bit too opportunistic, makes the mistake of occasionally making obvious self-preservation moves that don't look genuine, is more likely to make terrible cases when behind so she's producing

something

.

Pedit: Master Zik joined the game under an alt for a reason.

[Nachomamma8]

Really? Are you in a newbie-game now? This is a Level 1 activity tell.

Level 1 is suspecting you for lurking.
Level 2 is suspecting you for lurking at an inconvenient time (namely, when useless slots get replaced and activity increases a significant degree).
Level 3 is suspecting you for lurking because you have a vote that's likely to lead to a mislynch but you don't want to post, be forced to comment on posts that are obviously town, and then either A) back down, or B) be forced to lose credibility.

I don't see why it was crazy unreasonable for me not to know I needed to make a deeper reading than that. I don't understand why you aren't currently explaining to me where exactly I was going wrong or why you aren't currently making a stronger effort to produce in a very content-heavy time such as this.

[Nachomamma8]

Well here's the problem. Firstly, any kind of suspecting X for lurking tell, is inherently Level 1, no matter how you embellish it.

Make this argument, and you also have to make the argument that there is no scum motivation behind lurking, or that scum don't lurk in response to various pressures or events in thread, which isn't true at all.

Beyond this, I don't really have an interest in arguing with you. You've made a mistake in panicking when I voted you and tipping your hand; I very likely would have unvoted you if you hadn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Plum:

Zik, not zakk. That vote seems like a distraction based on annoyance as opposed to a vote based on "who is likeliest in this scenario to be scum?".

[Nachomamma8]

I'll catch up/post good stuff tomorrow when I have a little more time to work with.

Vi, I think you're overreacting to Plum's vote.

[Nachomamma8]

Plus, if either of them is town, or heaven forbid both (unlikely, given my reads aren't likely to be 100% wrong) they're a huge asset to us.

Kagami's town.
Cabd isn't.

I'm willing to give him all of two posts to change my mind, but not expecting anything fantastic

[Nachomamma8]

ETA: They are absolutley milquetoast by comparison, in my view. Which lends support to my view that this is her scum-game, not her town-game.

Okay. Do you have links to support that the condescending tone = Vi!scum?

[Nachomamma8]

ETA: They are absolutley milquetoast by comparison, in my view. Which lends support to my view that this is her scum-game, not her town-game.

Okay. Do you have links to support that the condescending tone = Vi!scum?

You haven't answered my question.

Regards,
Jazz

I've answered plenty of your questions. You haven't answered any of mine.

[Nachomamma8]

Also don't think random suspicion on Jazz is good; the way she's approaching the game is still town.

[Nachomamma8]

You haven't answered questions of mine period. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask you to take a break and answer one of mine, especially considering I live the mobile life and you don't.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I need you to restrain me from doing something I will regret. Please god.

Ignore, ignore, ignore.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you voting Salamence?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, are you satisfied with a Master Zik wagon?

We're no longer pressed for time, but I'd like to keep putting pressure there.

I'm happy with a Master Zik lynch.
I got what I needed out of this day when Master Zik made it obvious who he was; if we are golden on this lynch, tonight is going to be a hell of a night.

[Nachomamma8]

Consider that while she's launching mud everywhere at whoever remotely looks like an easy target with logic

Who isn't an easy target currently? Ranmaru?

I think the game is currently at a point where there are a lot of possible lynches if scum through their weight enough and town shit the bed enough. I don't think Jazzmyn's focus has been on easy lynches.

[Nachomamma8]

Salamence is voting SleepyKrew. I don't think he's done anything at all since Ranmaru replaced in and did his thing.

[Nachomamma8]

Salamence is voting SleepyKrew. I don't think he's done anything at all since Ranmaru replaced in and did his thing.

That's a problem.

He's prod dodging at skillful intervals as well.

Lurking???

[Nachomamma8]

What an interesting scum tell!

[Nachomamma8]

One post left.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm in the winning team of Team Mafia 2015.

lol

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you find the post town?

[Nachomamma8]

That being said, I read through your Plum case. I'm not opposed to lynching the slot to get rid of the ambiguity because I personally can't figure it out and it's arguably one of the better information lynches. I think it's better than the Zik wagon, at least. Not better than a Salamance or LLD one, though.

It seems weird to lynch a slot for the ambiguity when it's been replaced.

[Nachomamma8]

More importantly, what's your read on Zik given zakk's Town-case on him? I'm not particularly appreciative on your neutral posts today.

Scum?
Did you think that was a town case worth commenting on?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, screw it. The second read didn't do much for me either.

Vote: Kagami

(L-3)

Please stop voting here, Vi.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami has done nothing for me (the "axes" discussion in particular looks like scum explanations) but Plum's replacement is still something I'm going to sit on.

Let's start here.
And additionally, what in Zik's recent posts are you reading as town or townish?

[Nachomamma8]

Master Zik was active after I voted him and after it became less obvious that the Plum wagon was going through, which is a portion of my scum read on him in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

Thing is, first of all, I think you're overstating your polarizing nature that makes everyone get some sort of read on you or whatever? Maybe it's just me, but looking and reading back I don't think 'hmm, yeah, LLD did a lot more interesting or controversial stuff than I remembered'.

So the reason I liked Plum's interactions with LLD was because of how genuine compared to how everyone else was treating LLD: the points where Plum offered commentary on a player but wasn't really sure how to end up in a read on them usually ended up making sense and feeling town because all of the people she treated in this fashion (LLD, zakk, Ranmaru) all read as likely town to me, and each interaction, although it ended with a weak stance, felt unique. My biggest problem with weak stances are that they avoid taking stances and leave your options pretty wide open, and that they normally don't demonstrate any depth in a thought process. I don't think any of the three iffy reads Plum presented were wagons or going to be wagons anytime soon, and I feel she approached all three reads in ways that were unique and interesting enough that I think she would have trouble faking it as scum.

I like this read in particular because of her townread on you: Plum as scum is most likely trying to manipulate you or gain cred after your mislynch with your townread here. In that position, I think it makes the most sense for her to adopt a similar townread on your strongest townread. Taking the iffy position and throwing doubt on LLD alienates her from you (for bad position on your townread), which risks her position of trying to manipulate you, and it risks her position on LLD (whose support she needs to capitalize on town cred on your flip). I could see an argument for Plum-scum maybe scumreading LLD for mislynch/WIFOM reasons, but I don't think the doubt she expressed would make sense from scum in her position.

[Nachomamma8]

Well. I can't get everything right. I barely have the mental energy to think. I should probably try to just wait a little so that emotions or whatever aren't affecting my posts so much.

This also seems like a post pretty unlikely to come from Plum-scum; taking a random as shit dive at zakk, unvoting immediately and then blaming it on emotions seems like an unlikely move.

The "Well, I can't get everything right" also feels good to my heart.

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

this game sucks now

[Nachomamma8]

I do too!

[Nachomamma8]

I have a strong scum read and have a preference in lynching Master Zik. I could very easily be persuaded to lynch Cabd if Kagami's uncomfortable with a vote on Zik and could maybe explain a little about why.

[Nachomamma8]

LLD, do you want to move to Cabd today?

[Nachomamma8]

Singer, I agree with you that Salamence is likely scum. However, he is the weakest of three scumreads and my other two main scumreads are currently scumreading him. I need convincing as far as why I should join that over two wagons that are more viable and who I also have stronger convictions on. I've commented on Plum-slot a bit: do you have any comments on those posts?

[Nachomamma8]

I have terrible position with the majority of the players, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense as a survival tactic. The obviously superior survival move is to support my lynch.

The block currently basically voting Zik is LLD/Vi/me/Ranmaru. He has tried to appeal to each member of the block in a different way, failed each time. The only real support on your slot this game is singer/zakk/Jazz, which is not anywhere close to enough for a lynch and pushing you makes it likely he has a solid block of players pushing him to L-1 which would not be anywhere close to being desirable.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, you too?

If you leave me thoughts I'll get to them, but I only realistically have about 30 minutes or so.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here. Reading up. Nachomamma8 gave me good vibes in his introductory posts, but his recent posts are terribly wrong and could possibly ascribed scum motivation. I'm conflicted about my read on him.

Kagami, the reason I'm currently scumreading Zik (the reason that makes me feel confident) is based on my exchange with him starting about here. In particular, I didn't like how he went from a strong townread on me to the middling to strong scum read here and then ended up dropping it soon after, I don't like the over the top emphasis on the "validity of the case" over anything else, and I think that the way he talks about lurking as a level one scum read and then later shifted over to Salamence for lurking.

[Nachomamma8]

Alright. On phone so can't do much. Can I have an updated reaf of Zakk? Anything you'd like to talk about?

Townread on zakk hasn't really wavered lately, he still seems super town.

What I've been thinking about lately is my picture of the game if Zik is town; I have a stronger townread on Jazz than most people do and latest post reinforces that a bit, you/Vi/LLD are basically non-negotiable town, and I like Kagami's opening a lot a lot while I haven't seen a single post from singer that bothered me; engagement levels from the slot are still looking good despite being behind in pages, which is good.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Cabd

I plan on catching up soon, but I have been reading Master Zik as town for the past few days and and think the Hamtaro slot lynch is a strictly superior one.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be current by tomorrow, sorry for silence.

[Nachomamma8]

Tier "I'm more likely to eat a dick while falling off the Empire State Building while singing "Singing in the Rain" than these things have the probability to be scum"

Let's talk about Cabd's reads list here.
The reads themselves: Not terrible. The reasons themselves? Horrible. Who talks about reads like this when the reason he has for his town town town block is "mutual townread and they look super engaged in this game!"? These reads look like the very embodiment of making up reasons to support the reads: he knows these are reads he is expected to have because LLD and Vi aren't ever getting mislynched, but he's not really sure why they're being read as town as they are.

[Nachomamma8]

I find myself agreeing on most of his stances; and I get the feeling his playstyle and mine share some similarities in the pre-post mental states.

This is a confusing comment, considering zakk and the Vi read and the ABR read and etc.
It's also a confusing comment because I don't think zakk thinks very much like you or posts very much like you.

ABR"s ISO is enough to slot this one here, forget Nacho's posts. ABR was a huge asshole, but it was town-assholery through and through. I don't think scum-ABR ever posts 343. Nacho's posts really don't change my opinion here; it's a incredibly probtown slot.

You missed the part where I had the same exact view of my predecessor and then ended up proving myself wrong?

I mean, not only would that be effective but it would also likely serve to demotivate nacho.

I don't think this expectation makes sense in any way whatsoever. I'm also incredibly surprised that Ranmaru consisted so little to your read on the slot.

[Nachomamma8]

That leads to the question of why Kagami and Nacho have such differing reads on you. Kagami seems to only be Town-reading you because you told them who you are, and (if I'm reading a vague Nacho post correctly) your identity cemented his will for this wagon. Would you disagree with this assessment, and would you care to explain?

The interaction I was expecting Master Zik to have with me when I voted him was more along the lines of how he interacted with Kagami. Instead, he tried to drown me out with words words words and set up a situation where he was town until I could provide a proper case against him, which is the sort of thing he did in Nightless.

[Nachomamma8]

That said, I'm very uncomfortable to be voting with BBmolla. I don't feel town-him.

I agree.

[Nachomamma8]

So the real question, Nacho, is whether this is indicative of him being scum not wanting to give controversial positions, or whether it's indicative of him being unable to keep up with this game?

There's a lot of effort being spent in how he words and presents his suspicion but not a whole lot in the actual reasoning behind them. If he was just behind, he wouldn't be as aware as he is about his reads on every single player, and we would get focused content as opposed to the big picture shit he delivered.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho just assume I'm bussing and join me then?

I am doing both of these things already.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Tuesday

Will be gone in New York, will not have much mafia time in the meantime.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Jazzmyn

I can vote here, can't vote zakk.

[Nachomamma8]

BBMolla also really needs to die today.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi Kagami!

[Nachomamma8]

Confident on zakk-town, nacho?

Pretty confident, yeah.

[Nachomamma8]

You think BB placed the vote, not expecting it to gain traction?

No. I think he expected Cabd to die.

[Nachomamma8]

LLD isn't scum sonic.

[Nachomamma8]

To me if lambda is any kind of smart as scum she doesn't make that kill

this is bullshit. everyone knows that people dont listen to dead town. maybe in this game we do or maybe we dont.

singer kill points towards LLD scum clearly.

This is remarkably shallow logic.

[Nachomamma8]

LLD isn't scum sonic.

nacho i am not townreading you very much

tell my why i should believe your statement

I'm town. She's town.
Doesn't really get more complicated than that.

[Nachomamma8]

To me if lambda is any kind of smart as scum she doesn't make that kill

this is bullshit. everyone knows that people dont listen to dead town. maybe in this game we do or maybe we dont.

singer kill points towards LLD scum clearly.

This is remarkably shallow logic.

dont give me that bullshit. shes professor paragon. i just got out of a game where she got 4/5 of the scum right. i was scum. she caught titus=me. but we got rid of her and won the game.

i trust singer's reads

She got BBMolla/Cabd right. She got LLD wrong. These are still great reads.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess we're masons then.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: BBMolla

[Nachomamma8]

That seems irrational as shit, don't you think?

Vote: BBMolla

Can we lynch scum now?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, please keep in mind that it is MyLo, so two votes mean the possibility of a quickhammer.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay fucj this game

I received powers last night and had a forensic investigation (AKA could get confirmed ducking scum) but instead I got my vt role pm and no result

So fuck this shit

You received forensic powers? What does that mean?

[Nachomamma8]

I will also point out that it makes no sense for a vanillaizing power to exist, nor does it make sense for that power to target you.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nacho

Your scum game is so fucking lazy nacho

Why do you think that I'm scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't have any particularly compelling reasons zakk would be town other than I was townreading him before. I don't think my townread there is as strong as my townread on Sonic/LLD, but I'm not at all ready for his lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why did you vote BBMolla immediately?

He's not town. I haven't been as eloquent about my confidence in the slot being scum as I should have been recently, but Molla just sort of arbitrarily decided that Cabd was scum and pushed it through to a lynch which screams scum bussing.

[Nachomamma8]

Then you're saying the scum are BBMolla and me. Is that a correct interpretation of your post?

No. I'm not considering you as scum where I could see possibilities of LLD/Zakk/Sonic scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Zakk, stop voting Vi.

[Nachomamma8]

Please.

[Nachomamma8]

I king made sketchily because I wanted to survive the night. I don't play like I did yesterday otherwise.

Vi, do you see the problem with this point?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not claiming, sorry to disappoint.

[Nachomamma8]

That reminds me, Cabd's bad reads list. For the people he detailed, he tried to give a single exemplary post (that didn't make a lot of sense). He didn't even bother with that for zakk, basically saying "yeah, looks Town, zach supremacy". That looks odd in hindsight as well.

This is a strong point for them not being partners, btw.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not claiming because my role is actuay strong now. I was softclaiming earlier to make a shit at me more enticing, but now I have the ability to give us another chance if we mislynch today (which, thanks to you/zakk, we probably will) and its imperative that I don't claim.

[Nachomamma8]

Not the word I wanted to use but whatever, you get the idea.

[Nachomamma8]

LLD.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not dealing with her today because BBMolla is clearly scum and she isn't so clearly scum, but yeah its probably LLD.

[Nachomamma8]

coming out against BBMolla with a post that doesn't seem at all concerned with things?

What do you mean about this? Do you mean I don't seem very concerned with the possibility that BBMolla is town, or...?

Openly flattering me when I point out that he's equally suddenly opening me up as a lynch option? By putting me on a tier of Town above everyone else in the game?

If you were a lynch option I were entertaining, why wouldn't I mention you in that post at all?

Do you disagree that you don't belong on a town tier above anyone else this game? Is there any way at all you would play a scum game the way you played this game?

[Nachomamma8]

Trying to work with me on a question and then dropping it rather than trying to convince me?

I was planning on explaining Molla reasoning in full when I made it to this game, which is why I didn't pursue that question farther right then.

[Nachomamma8]

RC is a reapercharlie alt?

I knew it

Are you not going to do your meta case

What meta case? RC claimed that people told him he posts too much. I said he is lying, then asked him who says that.

I am familiar with town RC. Im not seeing it here.

This push on RC for lying is actually just absolutely terrible: is something that doesn't have good scum motivation, was not what RC was saying in the first place, and when he was called out on it, he didn't back off at all.

RC if you are scum this game. Im not playing with you anymore.

Because I cant stand while you AtE me into feeling like an asshole.

There's this exchange, which includes him going through this internal battle of "how could you ever say these things as scum, there's no way in hell you could say anything like this as scum" and then proceeds to call RC one of this suspects in the post where he switched his vote to Kinetic. For replacing out.

If I could read SK with any certainty, I would probably dead with him/Vez

I don't like all of these interactions with the Sleepykrew slot that amount to nothing more than "if I could read him, he'd be scum. but I can't read him. but if I could, he'd be scum.".

I don't like his vote on vezok. Vezok ended up on his radar for God knows what reason, and then he votes him for no reason and just kind of leaves his vote there.

His white knighting of plum is a shitty excuse to vote townies and has no genuine thought process, and him keeping you on his suspect because "the hated claim is something to play with" is similarly terrible.

His reads have no progression that is even sort of followable, his pushes are opportunistic and lack conviction, and his reactions towards certain players (RC in particular) doesn't make sense and just seem like terrible attempts to seem genuine.

[Nachomamma8]

*CRAZY THINGS HAPPEN*

Yesterday? I don't think Jazzmyn was a terrible lynch. Kagami was. BBMolla giving the kingmaker to zakk because he wanted to survive the night because he had a magical confirmed guilty is dumb as shit and makes no sense. UT including a role that could get a confirmed guilty is even worse and makes absolutely absolutely no sense.

[Nachomamma8]

I definitely read your post as saying that I wasn't Town. That's how not calling people a Town read works.

?
I have considered you town beyond town the entire game. I'm not a stupid person and wouldn't consider you mislynchable as either alignment unless I was hammering you for a win. What do you think I as scum have to gain by calling you a suspect and then backing off because you questioned me? What sort of reaction do you think I would be expecting from you if I actually called you scum?

[Nachomamma8]

hey guys I found scum they were hiding, sheep me

This is BBMolla's push on scum when he replaced in. He had 100% confidence in this read the whole way through. He never tried to push the lynch beyond "hey guys, he's scum". He never attempted to explain why he thought Cabd was obvious scum. Why do you think this is? As town, he would have to have reasons for thinking Cabd was scum, he doesn't have a ton of experience with Cabd so it's not meta reasons, it's just a magical scum read that came out of actually nowhere. Why do you think it was genuine?

The rest of his at yesterday was... nothingness. He asked people why they thought he was scum, he said he was available to vote some townies, and nothing. Why was any of that town?

I can't reiterate enough how dumb his claim was.

[Nachomamma8]

In re: confirmed guilty roles - Watcher. Already flipped. No idea how long it was in play.

He claimed forensic investigator. Which means you target the person who died last night and then you get to see who targetted them.

[Nachomamma8]

Please tell me how watcher is a worse role than that piece of work.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't reiterate enough how dumb his claim was.

He claimed kingmaker powers.
Then he said he received some powers no one claimed to give him.
Then he said if he didn't use kingmaker or forensic he could refresh his abilities.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not confident in LLD-Molla, obviously.

Molla is scum. Molla doesn't seem to be scum with zakk, zakk is playing the way he usually does as town. You are town. Metal Sonic could possibly be scum (maybe is) but things like interactions with Kagami, calling everyone scum today seem more town than not. LLD has the best scum game out of any living player and could probably fool me where others couldn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Like, I make crazy scumplays, but that's not a crazy scumplay, thats just fucking stupid

???

It makes no sense, and because it makes no sense, I'm supposed to assume it's coming from town?

You know that's really terrible, right?

[Nachomamma8]

WOAH

WOAH

ITS ALMOST LIKE

A COUNTER

TO A FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR

The ninja was a counter to the watcher.
You gained powers after the ninja flipped.

[Nachomamma8]

He doesn't believe it, there's no world where he does as town.

What points have I brought up against you that were bad?

[Nachomamma8]

My assumption is that I got powers cause I started the wagon on Cabd OR maybe it's some timeline relevent thing to the band.

And I imagine there is some scum who is a Vanillaizer.

These are the things that don't make sense. There's been no evidence of a scum vanillaizer and there's been no evidence on mechanics based on band interaction or rewards for achievements.

[Nachomamma8]

"He bussed and his claim is fake" is basically all I've heard from you

I've explained why I thought it was bussing.

I've explained why I thought your claim was fake.

I thought your play outside of that was severely lacking, which is also significant.

In addition, I've also provided a full case on your predecessor. It's not fair to say that I have no points, especially when your case on me amounts to "lazy lurking scum" and your case on Cabd amounted to "obvious lurking scum".

[Nachomamma8]

You're correct on that. You're also showboating like a motherfucker.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami also received mailman powers, which she used on me. You received kingmaker powers and a way to get a confirmed guilty.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought your play outside of that was severely lacking, which is also significant.

HOW DOES LACKING PLAY = SCUM??

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

In this game, you spent a lot more time interacting with the players around you, forming reads, doing other things. When you did catch lurking scum D1, there was also a lot less strongarming and a lot less expressed confidence. Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I wouldn't mind you not really doing anything other than focusing on one push if you were just plain lurking, it's more being around and having that single minded focus and ignoring everything else that's problematic for me.

Where do you stand on reads? Sorry if you've already talked about it, but who do you think is my partner who do you really really think is town etc.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why do you think his role changing is fake over it just being a safe claim, or that role pms changing are alignment neutral?

I need to go check something.

I think the powers to no powers is fake because there hasn't been evidence of there being a vanillaizer in the game.

I think the powers themselves are fake because forensic investigator is stupidly stupidly overpowered.

[Nachomamma8]

Forensic investigator is if you target a dead player, you get back all players that targeted the dead person, which means you get a confirmed guilty if you are smart enough to target a dead person. Molla's argument is that the ninja acts as a counter, but his powers activated after the ninja died so that doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense to include a watcher and a forensic investigator in the same game.

[Nachomamma8]

why doesn't it make sense for me not to give a fuck yesterday and just want to go to night?

It makes sense. But I'd need to believe your role exists first, and I don't.

I also don't really understand why you thought you were a big enough kill threat to where you had to kingmake someone sketchy.

[Nachomamma8]

and why is me losing my powers not believable

If there was a vanillaizer that was full, we would have seen evidence of them by now. If there was a one-shot or two shot vanillaizer, why you and why then?

[Nachomamma8]

Cause I thought you were potentially scum and would nightkill me obviously fuck

Why would I nightkill you?

[Nachomamma8]

YOU'RE NOT THIS STUPID NACHO JESUS FUCK ON A TWIZZLER

Where have I been stupid?

[Nachomamma8]

Cause I thought you were potentially scum and would nightkill me obviously fuck

Why would I nightkill you?

To avoid me calling you out on your bullshit

Since when have I been afraid of you when I've been scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Subject: Sabotage Mafia Reloaded GG

I'm a Biomedical Engineer, AKA a Disabler. It says that someone anti-town knows I exist and is trying to find the information I have on the company's new project so I should remain hidden

Hence not wanting to claim

BBMolla doesn't fakeclaim like normal people do.

[Nachomamma8]

What evidence of a vanillaizer have you seen?

[Nachomamma8]

And do you think forensic investigator is a really dumb role?

[Nachomamma8]

I agree that BBMolla is capable of making insane fake claims.

Thanks metal!

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I've gone over this already.

I'm about to fly again.

I don't really see where you went over either of those points.

[Nachomamma8]

It makes sense to explain why you gave your kingmaker to a player who was almost certainly going to mislynch someone and it makes survivalist play for an entire day make town sense.

It just doesn't make sense from a game design perspective.

[Nachomamma8]

Saying "I wouldn't play poorly as scum" isn't really a compelling argument to me.

[Nachomamma8]

I also don't see why that play is sloppy if the town motivation you're claiming to have is supposed to make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

I get it, you don't respect my scumplay, but do some fucking research, I'm not as bad as you think I am.

I hope you're fucking scum, I'm insulted.

Your argument truly makes no sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Like it really truly doesn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Like the way you're playing this game is almost like a caricature of how a normal person plays and responds to things. Do you really expect me to believe that you're good and well with me suspecting you for two (?) game days and suddenly it's MAN FUCK YOU NACHO YOURE THE WORST AND AN ANIMAL BULLSHIT BULLSHIT RAH RAH RAH when nothing I've said has come close to justifying a response one that unless we see the world much differently than I thought we did.

[Nachomamma8]