Mini 1727: Legends of the Hidden Temple II - Game Over!

[VysePresident]

Are we already freaking challenged?

The mod hadn't sent me the bloody link.

[VysePresident]

Irritated. I've looked over the game thread, and you want to pressure me. Grats.

You know what? I don't have anything right now. Maybe later in the game, but right now, I literally just read the thread, and I'm not in the mood to process it, beyond the obvious.

Like, I'm not furious with you or anything, and I'll get over it, but...kinda annoyed. You can read me later.

[VysePresident]

Heh.

The worst part is, I almost never have anything until after RVS. Much as I enjoyed Fire last game, this is the closest I've ever been to wanting to policy lynch somebody that I can recall. Not quite there, but darn close.

[VysePresident]

I joked about being scum, and said 'foiled' card.

This might mean something if I was anything but a smart-alec, but meh.

[VysePresident]

Er, I joked about being scum, he 'voted' me, I said something to the effect of 'curses'. That's the extent of our conversation, beyond me teasing him about this a little. I figure I know what he means, but whatever. I feel like joking around a little.

I'm tired. I'm out for the night.

[VysePresident]

Can you two stop talking please? At least to each other?

Anyway, I'm reading the thread now. I'm not likely to have anything until tonight unless something really jumps out at me.

[VysePresident]

Which one?

[VysePresident]

Got sidetracked last night.

I'll get out of the woodwork soon-ish, but I'm pretty meh on that whole back & forth. There's a lot of people who's heads I want to bang together, in the politest possible way.

[VysePresident]

Heh

[VysePresident]

You can ask half the game. I tend to start pretty slow as I start pulling my thoughts together, then I get rolling.

I've chatted a little with Molla, but I want to sort through some stuff before I start engaging. If it's not obvious, I'm reading now. I have to run to work soon, then ideally, I'll be on tonight.

[VysePresident]

@Fire - M'kay, if anyone here gets PL'd, I don't think is should be me. That bit aside, I've moved on from my irritation with you for the most part, along with wanting to knock Titus & Sala's heads together, and I'm working through the game now. You seem to have missed that I'm rarely a fast-paced player from last game, and pressuring me so early won't get you the results you want. Heck, I'm sure I'll get flak for this again, but this sort of thing throws my Town play off much harder than it does my scum play. (Feel free to take that with a grain of salt, but you get my point.)

I mean maybe it's just me but i don't see whats so hard about posting during free breaks and stuff. XD.

It's a matter of playstyle & stuff. I'll link you if you want, but I like to think I have a quality over quantity style, at my best. I'm very slow to post, and tend to be relatively thorough when I do so - you can ask Titus, Vedith, Elbirn, Fire, Suzune, and Molla. Only Molla has seen me play scum before from this group, while the rest would know my Town game.

I'm going to be very aggravated if you guys push the lynch through before I'm done. (This does assume I post later tonight as promised. I won't hold any expectations if I screw up. I'll likely replace at that point, actually.)

[VysePresident]

Oh, it's actually between Fire & me now. Lovely. Teach me not to look.

[VysePresident]

@Vyse, Actually, you were scum in We Didn't Playtest This. I don't think there was an issue with your posting rate though.

You played Playing With Elements with me too, where I was Town. (Remember Dodgy, Wisdom, all that?)

[VysePresident]

Salamence20 is being replaced.

Por que?

Medical reasons.

Ahh.
Sally if you read this, you have my sympathies.

Same here. I hope it's nothing too serious, pal. Here's wishing you the best.

[VysePresident]

In other news, I'm summing up my notes & stuff now. Shiro may stop weeping in agony.

[VysePresident]

Heya, Sonic! Glad to see you made it into the game after all.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Vedith

Talk with me. Have you & Fire talked much about the challenge since crap hit the fan? Are you Townreading him still? Reads on the game in general?

[VysePresident]

So I know Titus is going to speedlynch Fire so Im not having any part of it.

Im not going to stop her either

And why would I do that? What makes you think I would?

Firebringer has actually let me play on day 1.

Curious what the point of this post is? Can you walk me through your transition from here to voting for Fire?

[VysePresident]

Btw people should stop voting FB unless they can explain why scum would so carelessly townread their PT buddy and why scum would issue a challenge so early and put their life on the line.

Because I would? At least, I would if half the game didn't know me. That's despite the fact that I'm a lot more cautious & thoughtful than Fire.

Kinda meh on Fire actually being scum, but this isn't the reason not to vote him.

[VysePresident]

In my opinion Shiro, Firebringer plays fast and loose. I think there is a possibility he would do it to come off as a town read. As I explained in another game, people rarely double think early reads so getting ahead early is the goal of any mafia.

I just don't understand most reads, maybe because I see everything having both a townie and scummy reason.

Can I get you to elaborate on this, please?

[VysePresident]

This fucking guy^

THATS ALL YOU GOT.

I don't know I kind of like it, so much better than what you've been doing which is complaining and ranting about how you know everything when in reality you don't.

I'll give you this.

[VysePresident]

M'kay, here are my reads, as they stand. I'm taking my scattered notes, and organizing them as I reread through the thread, hence any FutureVyse comments. (Note: It's getting darn late, and I have to wake up to rush to work very soon, so my thoughts are going to be a bit less involved closer to the end.)

-Titus & Elbirn are the closest things I have to Townreads at this point. Elbirn is mostly on tone - I caught him out when he was scum via an overplayed distancing attempt. It's hard to explain, especially this late at night, but it's matter of tone. He feels a bit more relaxed.TItus needs to explain the start of the Fire read to me before I go too much into my read on her.

-Maybe Kaito too, but I want to see him answer my question first. I'm also a little meh on his sequence from 251 to 254. (There are bits of 253 that I'm okay with. I kinda agree about Ved, and with the tail end of the paragraph.) {FutureVyse: Actually, 266 explains a bit, actually, though I suppose I'll need to actually skim over the games he linked later down the road. :/

-I have some positive feelings on Shiro's play, for all that I'm teasing them. Kinda like their take on Fire, even if I'm not totally in agreement. Not much else to work with though. Call them Townish-Null. Same for Kaito.

-Saving my read on Ved until he answers.

-Sala bugs me no end early on for some kinda over the top plays, but I'm giving this slot a bit of leeway because I kinda hated Sala's reads last game too, (he was Town) plus Molla's kinda pushing me away from it. We'll see.

-Anyone Townreading Molla at this point either doesn't know him at all, or knows him way better than me. I was scum partners with him in 'We Didn't Playtest This Mafia', and Molla's a freaking master of chiming in at just the right time, and just the right way. (The dead thread was a freaking ode to Molla until near the end, when he became obsolete, due to the emergence of the Phase of Plotinus. ) So no, I don't expect to read him easily. That's part of the reason I wanted to play with him, actually. Null to the high heavens.

-Suzune kinda bugged me earlier, but I'm having trouble figuring out why. I'm in a weird spot between sort of agreeing with her, and sort of not. I guess I'm less fond of her vote on Fire than the others, but it's late, I'm falling asleep as I type, and I need to wake up in three hours. Call this one gut too, and catch me later.

-Fire is just meh all around. Not going to lie, I've been a little biased, but screw that. I don't like his early play at all - there's too much of a 'lol, silly me' vibe. I'm kind of meh on him after his reaction to the flak he was getting. I view him as a friendly, slightly-trollish player, but there's an emphasis on slightly that got skipped over this game. Null. :/

-Kinda want to vote Davsto at the moment, (Yes, I know we can't. I mean in theory) but I'm not entirely sure if it's just clashing playstyles yet. He feels a little stiff, and his first big post bugs me. More on this later. Probably. Hopefully. Kick me if I don't remember. Not kidding about it being late - 3AM for me. (Actually, FutureVyse Note: I kinda like his 275, from the perspective of differing playstyles.)

PB exists. He voted Fire for being stupid. Okay. Fair enough. Putting a pin in this one. Let's say I'm looking for more content from him instead of what I'm actually doing, which is being lazy & also looking for more content from him at the same time.

I think that's everyone. I may have been subtly hinting that I'm exhausted as all get out, and my thoughts are starting to get less coherent. I'll work into this some more tomorrow, hopefully. Night all.

[VysePresident]

For the record, day 2 if someone challenges like this again you're policy lynched. It's such a pain in the to have come to this thread and be limited without the entire town being able to discuss it.

It's anti town and stupid.

This. So much this. I will make an exception to my hatred for Policy Lynches if this happens.

[VysePresident]

Shiro, I've done it. I've posted. A lot.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!

[VysePresident]

Also, the banners are freaking awesome, and the Iguanas versus the Jaguars almost makes up for the annoyance.

[VysePresident]

Now do you guys see why I take so long to post?

[VysePresident]

@Vyse, I do. I also remember you hadn't posted a lot there till my death. I figured that people would presume that I agreed with the statements I didn't correct.

Okay, I think maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

I forgot you were in the same game as Molla, where I was scum. I don't think you replaced in till shortly after I died? Either way, fair enoug.

You also saw my play in Elements, and you noted later on in that other game that I don't tend to play super-chatty all the time.

[VysePresident]

*That's the point I was trying to make. Fair enough?

--Anyway, heading for bed for real now. When I start posting half-complete thoughts, it's time to call it quits.

[VysePresident]

I know what it means, Kaito. I just want you to elaborate here, please?

[VysePresident]

Like, it doesn't have to be really involved or even directly useful. I just want to get a feel for how you're thinking.

[VysePresident]

Still unsure about Vyse, but he's definitely not the lynch for today. Vedith really hasn't said much. Often he's the driving force of activity, interrogating people and the like, but he doesn't seem to have been anywhere near as active as that.

I'd kinda like an elaboration please, Davsto?

What aren't you sure about regarding me? Why is Vedith's activity your reason for voting him? Just talk with me a bit.

[VysePresident]

Like, it's not *what* you're saying nearly so much as it is *why* you're saying it, if that makes sense? Kinda like with Kaito, I want to get a feel for how you think.

[VysePresident]

Like, just your thoughts in general, even if they don't go anywhere yet? I don't blame you for not having solid thoughts on me, but there's enough there for you to go "Well, this post makes me think this." "I agree/disagree with this point here", etc. Can you do some of that? Like I said, I'm trying to get a feel for you, so help would be cool.

[VysePresident]

Ask Molla. I can death tunnel very credibly as scum & enjoy baiting people into 1v1s, since, y'know, nobody ever listens to me.

[VysePresident]

Heh, that made my day, Fire.

But I'm not going to give you what I don't have. I guess I can link you to my games, if you'd like but no, not playing yet.

[VysePresident]

Or did you want me to fake a case on you?

Because right now, I don't even need to try.

[VysePresident]

I'm trying to figure out what Fire was asking me to do. I'm having trouble figuring out why he's challenging me to a 1v1, and whether or not it's serious.

[VysePresident]

Still sorting out the game.

No.

[VysePresident]

You're the one who's going to be mad?

There's a reason we're not thrilled with you dude. Again, not angry, but I hope you learn from this.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: What Molla said, with a more neutral read on him.
P-Edit#2: I'm not going to yell at you if you're town, Fire. Like I said, I do hope you'll learn before you do something like this again.

Anyway, P-edits aside, Fire, it's your turn.

What's your take on the game so far? Specifically, can you give me a general overview of your reads & stuff right now.

[VysePresident]

Clearly he has a scum PM, else he would know how to spell Town correctly!

[VysePresident]

I hate it when I think Shiro is scum and Shiro acts cute.
Must not look at Shiro's avatar!!!

I am so Town.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, I'm just going to let you guys have fun here. Getting tired of this again.

That said, since you're here Titus, could I get you to answer the question I asked you in 414 Mostly, I'm curious what your reasoning is for Fire, and I wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on the rest of us lynch-candidates.

[VysePresident]

At this point so far, I like Vyse for Town. This looks like his town game to me using his usual reasoning, I mean he has not talked about Buzzwords yet, but other then that I think his seasons are still good.

At the vote count, I believe that both Firebringer and Vedith are voting Vyse for protection.

However, I find it rare that one no mafia team, challenged another no mafia team. I think that Vedith is probably on the right track.

Just because I'm a pedantic son of a submariner, I did

not

scumread Elbirn for using buzzwords last game. I scumread him for writing a forced case that did not fit the events of the actual game, and one of the symptoms of that was an over reliance on buzzwords to make up for his lack of actual personal thought on the matter. I think it was largely scum dismissing my case on Elbirn that game as 'hating buzzwords', when frankly, they're not a big deal in and of themselves.

Thank you.

[VysePresident]

@Titus, There is 0% chance for me that Molla and FB are both scum.
If FB is scum then there are no other scum out of us 4.

@Dav - There's no difference to most likely to not be town and most likely scum as both give the exact same result. Your comment was forced for this one for me.

@Molla - 478

As stated already. Why would a scum challenge another team with scum in? That would give it more or less a 50% chance of a town lynch.
My bet is, if FB is scum then both Molla and Vyse are town.

Run me through your thoughts on us right now, without the flips & stuff. Where are you at on the three of us? Why?

Actually finding it interesting that you & Fire still have your votes on me.

[VysePresident]

UNVOTE: Vedith

Meh. I need to think.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: Meh again. That's actually closer to being on track. I'm just going to post what I was going to, then sit back & think about this for a bit.

I think what's bugging me the most about this game is how many Town/Town-flavored reads I have. It's too many for the game as a whole, and especially at this stage. I'm wrong somewhere.

Fire's getting too blind on Vedith, and I don't see Ved deserving that. Ved kinda has a similar problem with Fire, for that matter, and I want to see him start fleshing things out. I actually would like to see Molla posting more, though I'm not sure what's even useful at this point.

While I'm here, Davsto's starting to seem more like somebody's who just too straightforward in how they think about the darn game. Moving him back up from Nullish-scum to Null w/ hints of "Oh frick this, he's going to be Town, isn't he?" on the side.

Honestly, I'm just about at the edge of caring about this whole fight right now, but I'm enough of an idiot that I want to run through this thing.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: Meh again. That's actually closer to being on track. I'm just going to post what I was going to, then sit back & think about this for a bit.

This would be in response to Fire's 560, and that's it's more line with what I would expect from him than the blind trust appeared to be.

[VysePresident]

@FB, So you're town reading Vedith for agreeing with you and your concerns come when he doesn't? Yet you always scumread each other and its inevitable that it happens?

What reads did Vedith put in the PT?

@Vyse, I like Dave being straight forward. Why is that a problem to you?

I'm saying that initially, he was bugging me a bit, and I was trying to sort out whether it was scummy or just how he was approaching the game. Now I'm saying I'm inclined to think it really is just a playstyle difference. Straightforward is just me looking for a nice word in expressing a strategy I disagree with. (I.e. I'd be more concerned about you if I didn't think you were tunneling past the point of being reasonable. I'm more concerned about you being nice to Fire earlier than the shouting matches that followed. Dave's the opposite. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with Fire's tone in 554. Davsto liked it because it wasn't taking advantage to quickhammer. He's also inclined to think scum wouldn't challenge a team with scum, which is amusing to me in a few respects. It's not wrong per se, but it's a very limited view - the fact that he thinks that way is reason enough to do so as scum, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I'm tired & kinda want to figure out where I'm at now, so out for a few.

[VysePresident]

Basically, I feel like we're processing information differently. I feel Davsto has a bit too narrow of a view sometimes, but I no longer have the gut-scum feeling I was toying with earlier, where I thought his narrowness was forced. There's a pattern to his thought process, even if it's not one I can readily agree with.

[VysePresident]

Actually, that's L-1.

I'm probably going to hammer in the morning. I'm ready to move on.

[VysePresident]

Elbirn is Town, Titus is Town.

And this is going to be a long game.

[VysePresident]

:/

Ved's Town.

Gonna see this play out before voting, but I think Molla's more Town than not too.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: BBMolla

Thrilled this is happening.

Do tell.

I feel like doing something game-related right now, even if it's just more banging my head on a wall. (I kid, I promise. )

[VysePresident]

(If it's not clear from my post, I'm teasing Titus a little, not whining about the game. I'm pretty much past that now, I think.)

[VysePresident]

@Elbirn I don't see what you are townreading, and I don't know if you are intentionally trying to weaken my scumread on you or you don't care or I am lost. I feel like this is buddying. [Confirmation Bias is strong in me]


@Vyse love the reads buddy! It would be better if you gave us X is Scum and Y is Scum. Instead of town reads. >.>

Closest I have is MS via Salamancer, and maaaaaaybe Suzune. Naturally, Molla isn't agreement with me on any of these reads, (I don't know his thoughts on Suz, actually.) and part of the reason I'm okay with this wagon playing out for a little while is in hopes of getting those thoughts. (And before someone asks, no, I'm not voting.)

(I don't find MS particularly readable yet, while Sala seemed a bit more over the top than I remembered from last game, even factoring in some people's tendency to get annoyed with Titus.)

I'll be rereading in a bit, but I've got a thing I wanted to do with some friends first.

[VysePresident]

Mmm, so it's an associative?

What's the difference between Molla & say, Wisdom?

[VysePresident]

VOTE: BBMolla

Molla, I've been looking over We Didn't Playtest This & thinking for a while. I'm going to insist on you giving me your reads. There's too much here that's bugging me, based on our scum game together - same response to pressure, same tone, same anger, all that stuff. So you think Titus is too robotic, fine. What about Elbirn & Shiro? Also, I love Townreads on me & all, and I'm getting used to being Townread for reasons I don't fully understand & all, but...well, I think of you as being a better player than myself in some respects, but I thought I did okay enough in WDPT that I wouldn't be so easily trusted.

Because right now, I'm fairly confident in my ability to read Fire & Vedith, and they're both more Town than not by a lot. I'm not very confident in my ability to read you. I also got bit

hard

the last time I trusted somebody Townreading me so hard. :/

Just talk to me dude. Ignore Titus, Fire, et all for a minute please.

[VysePresident]

@Mod - I'm currently really freaking sick, and as such, I'm preemptively declaring V/LA until the 18th

I'm hoping it's just a quick stomach bug, but I'm putting that up just in case.

@Molla - For what it's worth, Fire is the only one of you I'd policy lynch. (Sorry pal, love ya, and you were cool last game, but this...has not been a good game for you so far. :/ ) I don't know. I feel like I'm screwing up majorly, but you're the only one I don't have as confident Town. I'm voting you because, frankly, I think you're a better player than me. It's not the claim in WDPT. I seriously do not believe I'd have ever scumread you in that game, if I hadn't been your buddy. :/

If you're Town, I'm sorry, it's the only freaking "good" (read: effing terrible) option I have right now. I mean, it's not like you didn't rage in WDPT too. It's not like you weren't the bloody master of jumping in at just the right moment, with just the right reads to make everyone love you. And it's not like I'm not starting to say "Gee, his reads are getting kinda dicey, and it's bugging me." If it helps, if you're Town, I'll promise to review my read on Titus, (Probably will do that even if you're not, honestly.) and I was going to look over Kaito & Suz tomorrow anyway.

If you're scum, screw you for doing this to me. Screw you, so hard.

I'll reread & think it over, but honestly, I think you're the only option left. And maybe it's just the bug talking, but I'm legitimately irked now too. :/

[VysePresident]

Oh screw this. Can we please just end this stupid day already?

I kinda want to get past the yelling & recriminations and just move on. I nominate tomorrows challenge to be the Suz/Kaito vs. Shiro/MS, with emphasis on the former two. More thoughts to follow when I'm sane, and not stupidly sticking to this thread as if scum is going to pop out at me.

Night.

[VysePresident]

Suz, you played in the same bloody game as Ved, Elbirn, Fire, and myself. Why are you the only way playing coy on reading Vedith?

And those were the same darn reasons you used as scum last game. Which I guess is one possible answer.

[VysePresident]

Dave, like I said above, a bunch of us here have played with Vedith. All of us are Townreading him except Suzune, who isn't even offering a real opinion.

Going to ask you to trust us all on this one. This is Vedith's Town play. This is also Townie from Fire. Molla's the only bloody one who's even possibly scum at this point, and the best darn scum player I have ever played with, which fricking sucks, but y'know, that's about it.

[VysePresident]

Night for real. I think.

I should stop posting on adrenaline. I'm not looking forward to waking up tomorrow.

[VysePresident]

At this point, I'll hammer whoever. Just get the bloody day done.

Why am I still up you ask? Don't. Just don't.

[VysePresident]

P-edit - What Fire said, except I'm pretty sure all of you are Town at this point. The difference is I'm just done with this mess.

I'm seriously considering replacing out at this point. Between the deal with Molla & Sala, along with the early challenge, it's just been one long grindfest after another.

Like, seriously dude, my post in the neighborhood alone ought to have told you this was a nothing push at first. All I wanted was your freaking reads, because guess what, you're a good player, and I think you're the most capable of fooling me in the group. It's a bloody compliment. Frankly, I didn't even have any serious intention of lynching you at the time. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't getting hit with another MurderWeasel ploy. This wasn't worth your stupid temper tantrum.

Now I don't even care. Somebody just hammer whoever.

Ved's at L-1, so I figure it's going to be him. Enjoy. I'm just going to sit back & say I told you so.

[VysePresident]

Sorry you feel that way Vyse.

I'll get over it, but right now, I'm more irked with this incident than anything that's happened all game long.

The thing is, I thought way better of you.

[VysePresident]

I think I should issue the next challenge.

I want town in charge of that shit.
I will of course wait for a consensus though.

No to this.

Scummy group challenges other scummy group, after the group reaches a consensus.

I wanted the Monkeys versus whatever the Shiro/MS team is. I want us choosing from too many scum instead of none.

[VysePresident]

Also, Elbirn is pretty darn Town.

Less sure on Titus at times, but I've played with her a fair bit, and I'm still pretty sure she's Town. (That does not count as an endorsement of her reads, which need to be taken with a grain of salt, no offense intended.)

I don't really see Shiro as being particulary scummy, but meh. MS is moderately scummy, due to his predecessor, and having nothing worth a darn. (And again, no offense. I hope RL is treating you okay & all, it's just a statement of how I see things right now.)

Kaito & Suz can both hang for now.

Now I'm done with the game for a while, at least until the flip. Night.

[VysePresident]

I guess I am not "alright". I hope he does flip scum so that lynch was worht something. Otherwise it was meaningless and I feel like shit.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Metal Sonic

No. Just no Just freaking heck no you didn't just do that you freaking did .oq;bwgqbo;3ho'3b
3hb3ou;qwbgouw;bg

b222

[VysePresident]

Okay.

I won't murder you.

Yet.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Kaito

Sheeping Molla.

[VysePresident]

UNVOTE: Kaito

Partly for Titus's request, partly to annoy MS.

(And my vote may be considered on Kaito in spirit.)

[VysePresident]

Here is the Kaito Wagon:
Kaito (6)-BBMolla, Metal Sonic, Davsto ,Firebringer, Titus--LYNCH

Vyse unvoted Kaito don't know if I should make that suspicious or not but he did the EXACT same thing with Vedith and voted BBMolla.

Vedith Wagon:
Vedith (7)- Metal Sonic, Davsto, BBmolla, Suzune, Shiro, Elbirn, Firebringer

You can ask Molla what I was saying in the neighborhood. My Kaito unvote was mostly just me letting things play out, and I'd basically promised to vote for him again, bar something major jumping out at me. And yeah, I read Ved as Town, and pretty strongly at that. Call it what you like.

I mean, if you think my idea of bussing my scumbuddy is to say "Whatever", right as they're approaching obvious lynch threshhold,

help them reach that lynch threshold, then abandon the lynch after I failed to hammer another scum, then do nothing to change to a different lynch target...no. Just no. Give me some credit. Only a moron doesn't vote their fellow scum. (Which also sums up my opinion on our supposed "ConfTown", Fire. :/ )

(Also pretty sure my vote got Ved momentum, without getting me Town credit. Again, credit for basic intelligence please? Ved wasn't quite as obvious a lynch as Kaito when I unvoted, but...:/)

That's about it as far as my defense off the top of my head. It's not like you don't have my thoughts on Ved handy, and Molla can confirm my thoughts on Kaito, so....yeah. I'll probably paraphrase what I gave Molla last night in bullet points instead of a massive post, and take that step back to reread I wanted, unless you guys are going to insist on making this a thing.

[VysePresident]

So, I'm out for a while, and possibly replacing out.

I just had one of the worst experiences with friends I've had in a long time. Suffice it to say, there's something they value/enjoy that I believe is extremely unhealthy, and I couldn't let it go. I'm a coward, but some things...are more important than me.

This time, it did hurt. A lot.

I honestly don't want this to effect the game or what not, but I feel like I owe an explanation to you guys.

[VysePresident]

Since I promised the notes a long time back, here you go.

-Molla, Fire, Titus, and Elbirn are all basically obvious Town at this point. I've only skimmed today, but I don't really care that Elb's pushing me. He's Town. Read even three of these people as Town, and good luck ScumVyse winning in any scenario ever. Given that there's three scum, it's just barely possible I guess, so have fun with that.

-Shiro, PB, and Davsto are more Town than not. I'm watching them at this point, but not going to lynch them today.

-Suz & MS are my favorites for scum now. Enjoy that one, Elb. I've played with Suz too, y'know.

-I need to reread, because I lost track of the game in the tunnel fight. I'm...not sure I"ll get to that point, but I'm giving myself some time to calm down & make a rational judgement. (hence my Kaito unvote)

That's really all it boils down to, in the end.

[VysePresident]

Same really. I'll probably be at work when things actually happen, but MS & Suz are my last two scumreads, so...

I'm heading to work in about 15 minutes, but I'm going to try & get my head back in the game after I come back. Sorry for the delays just very busy & out of it. I'm in a better spot mentally than yesterday, but stuff has been happening that makes playing hard.

[VysePresident]

Y'know, I know you guys are going to be mad at me, but since I don't want Shiro or Molla lynched, it's me or MS, so....

VOTE: Metal Sonic.

[VysePresident]

in all honestly if we do get sonic and he does flip town I am pretty certain VP will flip scum

Suzu talk to me about your scumread. We would probably hit a wall on it but talk to me about it anyway

For now

Vote:VP

But my intent for the hammer still stands.

I honestly think there is an actual chance that both of them are scum

If he does flip Town, I'm just about ready to say screw it.

[VysePresident]

Yeah well, may I have a chance to speak tomorrow please?

And you owe me after earlier in the game.

[VysePresident]

VysePresident- Is a leaning scum for me. I usually am interested in the way he plays and the arguments that he presents. He is usually very discriptive and focused. Now either he does not enjoy this game or he is playing a different side. I have never seen Vyse as mafia before, but this does not look like his town game. The fact that he mentions he has suspicions but never tells us why seems odd to me to. In a game where making the case is half the battles since everyone is speed lynchers, one would think he would put some effort into those reads.

One of my major scumtells is actually being too active, for what anything I say is worth. It's easier to make up a case on somebody than it is to actually solve the game. As Town, I tend towards being quiet until I either get a strong read (Elbirn last game.), or people start trying to lynch me.

I know your opinions on meta, but I guess I can link you to literally all my scumgames if you care. Molla here is the only one who saw me play scum, anyway, so you can ask him, I guess.

As for my activity, I'm just beyond apathetic whenever I try to get on anymore. I don't have the energy to fight you guys at the moment, and I don't have the reads to push back with anyway. Like, honestly? I was just hoping MS would flip scum & clear me. (Not that I didn't suspect him, but, I'm just going to post the reasons when I post everything else.) I'm not going to throw a tantrum, as much as you guys love eating that stuff up. I've come close a couple of breakdowns during nasty points in my life, and I do not trust myself very much. (By the way, in the course of apologizing to me, Molla did mention that his stress was real, but he was really using it to his advantage as well. I wasn't wrong in my read, just my interpretation.)

I'm trying to get past it & just play the darn game. I'm don't want this to happen without a fight, but I need something to actually fight for. The closest I have is a scumread on you that Molla thinks is wrong, and...frankly, I don't trust my own judgment very much right now. That's one out of two remaining scum.

I'm trying to get past it, because as you say, it makes no sense if I want to avoid being lynched, but I'm honestly in a really crappy spot in my life right now, so cut me some slack, please. I mean, if you think this is my scum game I'm the guy who nearly turned around & won a newbie game with a guilty result on me through sheer force of will, so I'm going to resent it if I get lynched for this.g

Mostly, this is just an appeal to let me have a couple days off to get back into life, and then the game. I'm legitimately not up to handling much of anything.

[VysePresident]

You guys. Though to be fair, it's not like I liked the me option anyway.

I'll be on later today with thoughts & reads, or I'll just replace out. Sorry to be a bother about this.

[VysePresident]

Just saying, I'm reading now. I don't plan on replacing, but I'm giving myself a hard limit so that I don't stall the game if I fail.

And Titus can feel free to read me however she wants. I've pushed lurkers/Away people before, and the last thing I want is for my IRL problems to directly influence the game.

Though scumreading me for unvoting Kaito is just...not the best thing you could choose.

Later.

[VysePresident]

Titus/Elbirn, when/why did Titus start pushing Dav? How hard was it?

This is kinda important to me.

[VysePresident]

Sorry guys, my internet died on Saturday, and being the weekend, it took until now to get a technician down here.

I can be on for real by tonight, but since I've technically went past the deadline I set -

@Mod - On the first request from another player in the game, please replace me.

Leaving it to you goes.

[VysePresident]

Elbirn, do tell what makes Titus so Town?

Because I've been reviewing her, and no, I don't think it's quite so obvious anymore. (I was leaning TItus/Dav before I got DC'd. Now I have about 10 more pages to review, but...yeah.)

[VysePresident]

Titus, what's your actual read on me, out of curiosity?

Like, without Elbirn in the picture.

[VysePresident]

And extra reasoning added onto that is useless for you?

Anywho, I read through Vyse's ISO and I'm...


...

*suspense*

I highly suspect we have the same read on each other, Dav.

[VysePresident]

Also, I know I'm going to get flak for this, but remember Shiro?

Told ya so.

(Let me enjoy my one smug moment of this game. )

[VysePresident]

*suspense ends*

not really sold on him being scum.

Wat.

[VysePresident]

Not going to complain, but I was kinda expecting the opposite.

Not sure what ot make of this.

[VysePresident]

Reading now, will answer any question thrown at me as best I can. Read wall to come at the end of finishing my notes.

[VysePresident]

If Vyse is scum it comes only from his need to tell people that they are reading him wrong and his need to tell us how town he is all the time. At some point, if you are going to be town at least do towny things. Plus he was very swingy on the votes, voting on the train and later unvoting them for a silly reason.

However, I worry he is not scum, just rather not playing to his full potential.

Suz, remember in McNinja Mafia, when I screwed up my read on Blankface, and kinda faded back? There were some IRL issues then as well, actually. I feel a little similar with this game - not nearly as bad, but stuff just kept happening, and I don't feel like I've done a very good job. It's just how I play.

As for my self-defense, I'll just let you look at this ISO from this game, and let you decide if I'm being scummy. I've pretty much resolved to avoid using AtE on that level, (and preferably never fight that freaking hard again. I literally stayed up five nights running to fight a lynch. ) but the basic point stands. (Last post in the thread has alignment & roles.)

It's not a great solution, but I find that hitting the flaws in people's arguments repeatedly is about the 2nd best alternate to a temper tantrum, which I personally dislike. (I dislike heavy AtE anyway, but as you may have noticed, I have a few issues with depression that have come out during a game once. I especially prefer to avoid that.)

It's also much easier to defend myself when I'm having trouble getting back into a game. This post took three minutes, including digging up the links. It's just a start, and I've already asked the mod to replace me if I don't post again 12 hours from now, just to keep things from stalling. I'll make the call myself if I don't have something serious by tonight. (Which is the same deal I made earlier, before my frickin' internet died like an idiot.)

[VysePresident]

If Vyse is scum it comes only from his need to tell people that they are reading him wrong and his need to tell us how town he is all the time. At some point, if you are going to be town at least do towny things. Plus he was very swingy on the votes, voting on the train and later unvoting them for a silly reason.

However, I worry he is not scum, just rather not playing to his full potential.

I'm curious what you mean by voting on the train then unvoting for silly reasons? How do I seem particularly swingy, in a scummy way?

Talk with me, Suz.

[VysePresident]

Elbirn, you of all people should know about how freaking slow I am. Heck you & Grapes were talking about defending you by pushing to wagon me last game.

What's different now?

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: Oh lovely. Whatever.

@Titus - Like, it's weird to me that you have me at 'weak scum', and are defending me, Titus. Explain please? :/

@Suz - I can't help but feel you're dismissing me like you did last game. You're always nice, but it's like talking to a stone wall sometimes. You don't seem to listen & consider what I'm saying. :/

[VysePresident]

Well he unvotes Vedith to think. By unvoting he freed up a slot on Vedith train and it allowed for the growth of the second on against Molla. Typically dueling trains on day one means one is scum correct?

p-edit- I'm not dismissing you. I would just rather you use the data provided in this game to save yourself.

I will, don't assume that I'm not doing stuff while reading.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, well ,if you guys are going to lynch me, let me know before I finish my effing readthrough, okay?

Because I'd sure not like to spend a few more hours juggling this & chores if you guys have already made up your minds.

[VysePresident]

...What is the point of this?

I mean, it's nice when the conversation isn't about lynching me, but why is this useful?

[VysePresident]

Elb, be ready to chat with me later tonight?

I wanna 'bus' Titus.

[VysePresident]

And if anyone puts me into hammer range right now, I'm going to be so mad.

[VysePresident]

Okay ugh let me say something, im really thinking a Vyse/Titus scumteam right now.

Titus wanted a me/Vyse challenge. If I get lynched, free mislynch, and if Vyse gets lynched, she'll be seen as having put her partner in the firing line and potentially get twoncred for it.

On the other hand she threw a right tantrum at the challenge today, maybe that is because she knows Elbirn won't be lynched and thus a scum lynch is likely.

Just some theory crafting.

@Vyse - you still haven't answered about your scumread on me

Right now, I'm just typing up my notes.

If you want the summary, it's the fact that you have this weird mixture of things that come across as newbish, and stuff that strikes me as being really experienced. Sometimes, I think you're a slightly new, intellignet Townie with a stick in an awkward spot. (I say that in the friendliest way, pal. )

On the other hand, the part where you pushed PB for activity was bad, not gonna lie. Activity isn't alignment indicative, and...I think you ought to have picked up on that. I've also been noticing you 'pushing' Titus without actuall doing all that much about it all game. That was kinda meh even before I started scumreading her. :/

At this point, I think I'm pushing Titus to the death, and I'll just watch where the chips fall, and what people are doing with them before I say that much. There's not many options, and I'm kinda chatting with Molla about it some.

---

While I'm here, here's a quick summary of what I'm seeing from Titus that makes me scumread her. I'm going to dive into this more, but I'm tired of delaying, and the endless flak I'm getting for it.

Titus is being too coy about this game in the overview. I actually like what she's done in most single events, but looking at it now, she's just dancing around every lynch. For all the flak I'm getting about voting Vedith, at least I had the guts to stand up for my read. Now she's blaming me for unvoting Kaito to 'let her make a mistake pushing MS to save my scumbuddy' (and if you think I was trying to save him, just ask Molla. I wasn't scumreading Kaito as hard as Molla but I'd already figured he was the best lynch for the day, and promised to jump back on the wagon. Does that sound like either a bus or save to you?)

I mean, at least I actually stand up for my reads, when I have them. (I know that I'm going to get flak for my recent activity, so again, RL, the stupid speed lynching, & all the fights & tantrums in the beginning led to me disengaging. It's a thing that happens.)

She defends Vedith for Townreading Fire. It's a one time thing that disappears as soon as things start getting more serious. I mean, I know Vedith, and even I was voting him most of the way. I'm not sold on her lack of skepticism on this one issue, and constant skepticism towards everyone Town.

Now she's dancing around my lynch, and since I'm the apparent next lynch, she's WKing me.

VOTE: Titus

That's a thing.

[VysePresident]

I'm not voting you because I have pride. I'll be voting you in a 1v1 tomorrow, as I promised.

Yeh yeh okay
I don't buy it

VOTE: VysePresident

L-1

Yeah, Dav/Titus.

[VysePresident]

So, Suz?

That's a rough draft, but it'll do for now. Thoughts?

Elb? You owe me this one dude, and it's not like you even disagree. You really think this is my scumgame? Let me bus Titus, and I'll be the one to challenge Dav tomorrow.

[VysePresident]

I'm off for a few.

If Titus hammers me, you know which two to kill. Night.

[VysePresident]

@1648, So let me get this right? You're complaining because I don't stand up for my reads enough? I tunnelled Sonic for days. I heavily pushed FB on day 1. I have wanted Dave lynched for awhile. Now since Elbrin scumclaimed you want me to ignore that to lynch you?

Are you insane or scum Vyse?

Well, if you're going to say it like

that

.

I just think you're being opportunistic. I don't really believe you're defending me as a Townread. It doesn't make sense, even factoring in WDPT, and I'd like to think I have a good grip on how you work. You're not a feisty Titus trying to be less grating, you're a quiet Titus trying to be feisty.

Your tunnel with Sala (sorta MS, but you got really nice as soon as MS didn't talk.) did throw me hard at the beginning, but really, was that something you started, or he did? And again, you dropped it right away. I don't know that you wouldn't have done that during the replacement period. I won't lie, I'm not sold on you being scum 100%, but there's a distinct lack of options.

Elbirn's challenge interests me, and at best, it was...not smart. But you're the one I'm most certain on, so...

[VysePresident]

Molla, just look back, please?

Can you not see what I do here?

[VysePresident]

Right. I'm not in the mood to think about the trolling & stuff right now.

I'm just heading out for a while, until the flip is up.

[VysePresident]

Okay then. Titus is MurderWeasel confirmed. (You'll know what that means to me if you bother to glance at that game I linked. So Suzune will be forced to wonder forever. )

Anyway, Molla has done a lot that makes me think he's Town. I don't like his AtE, but it was Town even back before I picked up on the fact that this Town is incredibly, ridiculously frustrating at times. (There are some interesting parts to the challenge mechanic, but I do find it's somewhat aggravating at times, not least of which is that today was just bad. *gives certain nameless Elbirns & Fires a hard stare*)

For pity's sake, he did not have to lynch Titus if he were scum. He could have just coasted, and I would have died. He already had Kaito on his record, and gets credit for Ved, so...no. I don't think he needed it. Molla is Town.

Elbirn is pretty obvious Town via Titus's push, and his own tone & play. I don't like his push on me for obvious reasons, but screw that.

Fire still leans more Town than not.

Suz is iffy, but

I'm the Towniest Townie that ever Town'd at being a Townie in this whole Town.

Dav is freaking obvious scum at this point, even without PoE working against him. Do I really need to replay his ending sequence there? And his bus on his scumbuddies, do you seriously think he actually pushed any of them? Just shouting "Titus" and doing nothing does not clear him - for pity's sake, he was voting me yesterday over Titus. I don't buy her fussing of him as anything but distancing.

Elbirn, unless there is something amazing in your QT, you owe me this one man. P-Edit: Honestly, meh. I guess it's something after Titus defended Vedith. I won't object if the game ends early, but I'm going to be disappointed if it's Suz over Dav. :/

Basically, I'm as close to dead sure on Molla, Elb, and obviously myself for Town. This alone is pretty safe. Fire & Suz are probs Town. Dav has absolutely nothing to his credit except knowing to avoid obvious buddying.

Why did we not just lynch Dav & finish the game? What the heck about Dav looks like genuine Townie paranoia again?

[VysePresident]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I can do this.

VOTE: Suzune. That's a hammer. It might even be an extra, but I'm pretty sure it's the hammer.

Red Jaguers challenge Blue Barrracudas

VOTE: Davsto

I actually had to check the name twice before I made that challenge.

[VysePresident]

Red Jaguers challenge Blue Barracudas

VOTE: Davsto.

It's been fun, but I'm ready to end the game.

[VysePresident]

It's not Molla, Elbirn. I will bet you on that.

If you seriously think it's me at this point, I don't even know what to say.

Do you honestly think it's Fire?

P-Edit: Good.

[VysePresident]

Anyway, I'm probably going to be at work until late tonight. I might catch you guys in time for the fallout thread, if the mod is on early, but if not, good game all & thanks for your time, mod! I'm pretty confident we're at the end.

[VysePresident]

[VysePresident]

Would it be considered rude to PM the mod for a flip?

[VysePresident]

Eh, if it isn't, I don't have anywhere to go, so I'm not going to be pushing a quicklynch on anyone.

As far as being mad goes, you should have seen how mad I was with myself after Day #1. Not all games are great games for people.

But I really do think we're in the clear, and I'd like to know before I head off to work.

[VysePresident]

Eh, I need to shower anyway. Catch ya in a few I hope.

[VysePresident]

Titus did the same thing. :/

Again, I'm not even bothering with this one after the flip. There's just freaking nobody else, unless I've missed something major.

[VysePresident]

...

[VysePresident]

Freaking who then?

It's not me Dav. I get that you're mad, but it's still not me.

I'm out of leads.

[VysePresident]

I mean, the fact that Vyse continued is borderline scum slip, if you adk me. Trying to get a free mislynch off.

PEdit I mean it still could be Suz, I just don't see Titus throwing a tantrum against a method that gives her autowin.

This is stupid. I'm not going to mince words.

You think I'm scum for pushing my scumreads?

Nobody ever freaking listens to me Dav, bar a very few exceptions. I can & will strongarm my way through a confident read.

At this point, I'm just about ready to say screw everything.

[VysePresident]

Screw this, I don't believe Dav takes that tone without being Town. It's stupid, but it's freaking

insistent

, and it's not the first time someone's pushed me back after lynching them. :/

Fire is probably Town, unless he's playing the most active, involved troll scum game ever. I dunno, I wondered for a while because of Titus, but what the heck. How does he fake this? Really?

Molla goes back to the fact that, while I'm not entirely in my ability to read him normally, he's gone way out of his way to lynch scum, beyond what one would expect of a busser - I mean, you bus to get Town credit, not to put your buddies in a grave. I could see voting Ved as distancing, if that were the only thing, but he also hard-pushed Kaito, and helped me lynch Titus when he didn't have to. The emotional breakdown was a bit over the top, but I've seen play a while, and I don't believe that's out of character. I also think he's close enough to how I think that I can't exactly find it scummy for him to use it to his advantage. This is the closest I have to a real Town read now.

Elbirn....maybe the fight with Titus was staged? The challenge on me was bad, but still...Titus sounded like she was building up to a lynch, and I don't think she'd do that out of the blue, without any pressure on Elbirn. Not after how she defended Vedith. She only lynched Kaito when there was a death wagon on him. P-Edit: At least he's saying the right words here, if nothing else.

Meanwhile, I have a Town PM. If you really think I'm scum, just ask Molla. He was the only freaking person to have played scum with me to date. (I can link to games if you want to see my meta, but he got to see me in action.)

Can someone talk with me about Titus's Town meta? Elbirn, what did she say about each of us in the QT?

(If you're scum, I hate you so much )

[VysePresident]

Look, its as simple as the fact that Titus would totally be okay with a strategy which allows her to win, thus the fact that she threw a wobbly about it basically confirms that her partner was in the pool. It's not me, Suz or shiro so listen to me!

I'm not doing a big analysis because (a)I'm on phone and (b) Vyse is scum!!!!

Dude, I'm at the point where I'm just going to believe you mean this.

I"m not scum though.

Play along if you want to be useful. Who is it, when it's not me? We have two lynches left.

[VysePresident]

Semi-P-Edit: Got this post stuck preview before I left. Going ahead & posting now anyway, for the heck of it.

Dav, I ran through my reasons on Titus/You earlier.

As you pointed out, you were doing a lot of scum pushing, but the thing is...you were doing it poorly, and trying to build a lot of Town cred off it. Heck, you think I'm bad, Molla was pushing me like crazy to lynch you over Titus in the QT. (And no, this does not strike me as particularly scummy. Read into that what you will.)

The first was an activity vote you made on Ved that stuck around when he started getting pressure. The second wsa a vote on Kaito, for which only Molla really gets credit in my eyes, because that was such an obvious quick wagon. The third was you shouting Titus & doing nothing, including sheeping her vote on me

It's the same way I caught Elbirn out last game. You made bad pushes, and the fact that they were on scum did not completely exonerate you. Some people distance. :/

I don't know, I'm kinda freaking out right now, and that's not a good place to be looking at the game from. (I'm just glad Suzune is not here right now, because she'd be all over me for this. >_<) I'm going to head out for real, until after work. If the game's not over by then, I'll try to work out things.

@Elbirn - Please sum up what Titus said in the QT please? How did she handle her buddies? How about her pushes on Town?

[VysePresident]

Yeah, well played Molla.

VOTE: MollaVOTE: .

I don't even have the energy to argue. You're going to win.

But you're going down tomorrow.

[VysePresident]

You know what?

I'm going to ask you guys a major favor.

We have two lynches left obviously.

Give me Molla.

I know this makes people antsy as heck when I mention it, but I've literally never been lynched as Town before, and now Molla's literally jumping down my throat for things he effing pushed me to do as much as anything. Give me one last chance to win the game without losing my record.

You literally risk nothing.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Molla

[VysePresident]

I will effing self-vote tomorrow if it's not Molla.

This is too freaking blatant.

[VysePresident]

Oh screw this.

UNVOTE:

I'm Town you idiots.

[VysePresident]

Actually screw with that.

It's not Fire, it's not Elbirn

VOTE: Molla

I give up. Either you guys listen to me today or not. Have a ball.

[VysePresident]

None for me?

[VysePresident]

Eh, yeah. Last time this happened, I literally stayed up several nights in a row to fight back. I can't really do that much right now. Take that as you will.

It's not even like ScumVyse has half a prayer of a chance. Just do me one darn favor first please, because this push is BS from Molla. Not after how he was pushing like fricking crazy in the neighborhood.

He was hard-defending Titus, y'know?

The only freaking difference between him & I was that I had the guts to stand up for my reads.

Yeah, I'm out.

I wouldn't even be salty, but that AtE in the beginning of the game was just....ugh.

[VysePresident]

E

One last thing.

The guy who pushed pressure on Vedith? The one who got a wagon on him going in the first place, and literally freaking abandoned it at the peak, when it was still a thing?

That was

me

. Molla sheeped me. For all that happened when I switched to Molla, there was never more than a brief moment where his wagon was stronger than Vedith's. You know the funny thing about my vote? I literally told Molla in the nieghborhood that he just needed to post to help (And I'll be frank, I would have lynched Fire, so yeah, I get it. I thought I could read Vedith. If you like, I'll dissect his play.)

I'm the one who told him not to lynch Shiro when he was pushing that way like crazy. I'm the one who said Titus before Dav, when he was ready to hard townread Titus into oblivion. He's the one who toyed with voting Elb before sending it all to heck.

I pushed the lynch on Titus, when she had far more Towncred than myself.

Where the heck do you see ScumVyse winning in that? Remember, there were only 1-2 temple guards during this period. Leaving

four hard Townreads that didn't need to be alive alone.

There's white knighting, there's bussing, and then there's scum stupidity.

I don't know. All I do know is that Molla has more of the pieces than anyone, and is pulling it together in a way I don't think he would fall for. Certainly not now.

Just one freaking favor please guys. There is literally nothing ScumVyse can do to win.

[VysePresident]

There's white knighting, there's bussing, and then there's scum stupidity.

To elaborate on some things, Molla was high profile in the death of three scum, of which only one was the direct result of his push, rather than him clinging to somebody else's.

Vedith was my push, unless you want to call Dav's 'activity-based' read something to inspire momentum. I accept that I misread him, and there's not a lot I can do about that. Whatever. I jumped off, and stayed off even after Molla was obviously convincing everyone that he was Town. Molla stayed on through thick & thin, and got lots of Towncred for being the survivor in a high profile confrontation with scum.

Meanwhile, I supposedly hard-bussed my buddy, and jumped off just in time to avoid credit. Which sounds more like scum?

The best part is, I basically outright told Molla in the neighborhood QT that my vote was essentially contingent on him giving me the reads I"d been pestering him for since literally forever. It was a nothing vote, me begging for reassurance, and I was wondering why I even bothered very shortly after I placed it. There's a reason why I thought he was overplaying at the time. He just did a darn good job of smoothing things over in the QT. He basically convinced me that he was using his personal frustration to his advantage, and that I had just misread it. (Being Molla, he gave the technical details quickly, and sharply.)

I'm not going to mince words. The fact that he's scumreading me for that is ridiculous.

Kaito was someone he started scumreading right as he was about to be lynched. The only mention of Kaito in our thread prior to that was me basically saying "meh", and Molla just went along with that. THen, suddenly, with Molla about to die, Kaito was the scummiest of all scum.

Meanwhile, again, I vote to help push the lynch forward, and unvote to see a few things play out between Titus & MS. This was after it became clear that Kaito was obviously dying in the near future, and was everyone's suspect. Again, I'm supposed to have helped create momentum, then abandon it just in time to miss the Towncredit again.

And again, I told Molla this was not a serious unvote, but I wanted to watch people primarily for next phase. To his credit, he didn't push this, but he sure didn't seriously push to defend me.

Note how he always appears at just the right time to defend himself every time, and lets everything else go to heck until then. I was supposed to be one of his strongest Townreads, and he never did a darn thing until I started pressuring him about it.

The Titus flip was mine hands down, and at a time when she had much more Towncred than me, and was borderline invincible. Molla was also hard-pushing me away from lynching her when I was starting to scumread her, to push me in favor of Dav.

What did she do that looked like being buddies with me again? She was always pushing me until I was suddenly on the table, and it appeared that I had flaked the site. Do you think she'd be any more cautious of bussing me than she was in bussing Kaito? Why was she so afraid to put an actual vote on me, when, if I was a scumbuddy, I would have appeared to have given up?

Titus was scum. Titus did the only smart thing to do. She lynched Kaito in a heartbeat. Do tell me how that was supposed to go any other way? Do you really think I'm such an idiot?

Fun fact? I was yelling in the Neighborhood QT that Molla needed to get in there & push Titus too. I gave him a lot of credit when showed up, but the fun thing is, I'm pretty sure Elbirn had already switched votes.

I don't deny I've sucked this game, but at least I've stood up for my reads. Molla is just lurking & sniping in where appropriate. It's good, and I'm not going to lie, this read is mostly PoE coupled with this darn push. Just, the thing is, I'm pretty sure on Elbirn & Fire at this point, if only because of how hard Titus pushed them both.

Tell me how ScumVyse beats this wall again, hmm?

I hope you'll at least do this one stupid thing. One last chance, please? #BlatantAppealsRTown#Town4Ever

[VysePresident]

Elbirn, listen to me man. You talk about how great my play was last game, but you know how plausible is wa(And frankly, my only correct read that game was you. I Townread Grapes, Suz, and sorta Klingon. Imagine how'd I'd have looked once Klingon flipped. Apply that to Vedith this game. Watch what happens.)

C'mon man. It's not exactly a lot to ask of you. You're not voting no matter what, Fire isn't voting you either, I'm pretty sure. THere is no winning strategy for ScumVyse.

Just let me keep my zero-mislynch streak.

[VysePresident]

Like, I know how you guys think.

People hate when I get frantic.

They hate when I start explaining my own play.

They get worried like crazy whenever I start appealing for help with my perfect 0-mislynch streak.

All of these things sound like desperate scum to many players. (I.e. I imagine Molla could have used Suzune very effectively here.)

But I do it because, maybe, behind all the paranoia, there's a grain of commonsense left, that maybe this doesn't make a lot of sense. That maybe there's not any value to the case that sounds so freaking good.

I can't really AtE like some people. I don't want to, and even if I could/did, I'd almost certainly set off my depression for real, which is miserable at the best of times. Also, I'd have to do it as scum, and that would either be obvious right away or

I do make appeals though, and it's something I wish you would respect. The only losing scenario for you is if Molla & myself are both Town, and...honestly, I don't see any other way.

Tell me how I've even remotely prepared for a ScumVyse win? Ascribe basic commonsense to me, and the fact that random WIFOM is never as good as leaving well enough alone in the first place.

I'm Town, Elb, Fire. Even if you don't trust me, there's no darn way I can win this game if not.

Just let me keep my stupid bragging rights, please? Just end the game now.

It's Molla.

[VysePresident]

Titus is effectively saying "Firebringer is at my level and I expect him to be as good as me"

Thank you for complement Titus

You're welcome but this reeks of buddying.

I expect all players to take the optimal action. If they refuse to do so, I question the read.

The only reason I'm prob towning you for that post is I can't find a hidden bad fact to set it up.

Anyone agree with my elbirn moonlogic of "this isn't partner interaction"?

This isn't the reason, but yeah.

[VysePresident]

also

I'd like to note

the 3/4 scum on me here

LMFAO

Almost as if you were briefly the lynch of the time, and they all wanted Town cred for when you flipped!

[VysePresident]

Honestly, I don't know what to say here, Elb.

I want this so darn bad, it's not funny.

Maybe I should be playing sacrifical lamb or whatever, and try to ObvTown my way into a win. I'm just not as confident in gambits as basic facts.

I mean, would it help if I linked you to some Town/Scum games? Nobody seems to use meta much, but I have a scum game with Molla that's worth perusing, and a Town game where I did even worse than happened now.

[VysePresident]

Also, I'm just going to apologize to everyone who reads the Neighborhood thread. I was torn between rage & laughing like an idiot when I saw this, and I've flipped between ranting at & teasing Molla.

[VysePresident]

Then freaking lynch me if I'm wrong.

Just give me this one darn thing.

[VysePresident]

Eh, sorry. I'm mostly calm, but darned if I don't have a ridiculous amount of adrenaline right now.

[VysePresident]

...What is Olmec?

I feel stupid right now.

[VysePresident]

Point is I can't do this. I can't do vyse pulling my heart strings with those puppy dog eyes

Pls no Elb.

[VysePresident]

...What is Olmec?

I feel stupid right now.

Did you not seriously watch the show?
Legend of the HIdden Temple on Nick?

I want to PL you now.

:,(

I lived a very deprived childhood, apparently.

[VysePresident]

Thanks though.

Laughing helps make this fun again.

I feel like the quickest way to go insane is to take oneself too seriously.

[VysePresident]

It doesn't bother me until people take it seriously.

Then it's annoying.

[VysePresident]

Anyway, much I enjoy our chat, if you guys want to talk with me, now is probably the time.

Molla gets almost the next 20 odd hours, with a very brief chance for me to post in between. I'm kinda wnating to make the most of it, because Molla yells a lot, and it's hard to beat his momentum. (Another stupid reason for scum me to try to lynch him, but that's such a personal tell I don't know if it even means anything.)

[VysePresident]

Just one darn phase Fire?

[VysePresident]

Because I expect you to answer it a certain way depending on your alignment.

I had this grand vision in my head of you merely responding "No.", and then me staring at you for a moment, and then we both go "fuckit" and kill vyse and molla without any discretion or care because as long as there is me and you we won the game. Wed make a fucking blood pact over the shrine of the silver monkey, promising our townliness and swearing not to lynch the other no matter what, one of those two would flip scum and we'd go home with our prizes of brand new sony walkmans and thousand dollar savings bond from nestle.

Instead you dodged my question like a dodgy question dodger

Nah, this is TownFire.

Which means you're going to lynch me, but screw it.

[VysePresident]

I'm just

ugh.

no. This isn't how it ends.

I want to lose to good scumplay, not stupid AtE into oblivion.

TItus defended Suz, and hammered Kaito without a second thought, Fire.

[VysePresident]

Don't lynch Elbirn ever. He's Town.

The two of you are Town.

We can afford two mislynches before scum flip.

Lynch me tomorrow if Molla flips Town.

He won't.

Really, this game is ending this phase. I'm as dead sure on that as anything.

[VysePresident]

Holy cow, thanks guys.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, I'm just relieved it worked.

This is the third time I've missed a mislynch by a hair.

[VysePresident]

Holy freaking cow, I'm literally shaking right now.

[VysePresident]

Pardon me for gloating a little in the Neighborhood thread. It's probably not that bad, but I feel a little bad for how hard I hit Molla in there. XD

He really did play a darn good game.

[VysePresident]

Aaaaand how the heck does that happen?

[VysePresident]

I can't go straight to bed shaking like this, but I'm leaving to watch a Youtube vid or play a game or something.

This was one heck of a game, and I'm looking forward to chatting with you guys in a bit.

[VysePresident]

In other news, I'm loving watching Tales from the Borderlands right now.

[VysePresident]

I never played it before, but I've followed a group of Youtubers called Mindcrack for a while, and one of them picked up the new game. It's been a blast to watch.

I may even buy it someday, when I have something called 'free time'. (Most of which is going to Mafia anymore. Seriously, I hope this game teaches you guys not to scumread me for being low activity. That used to be borderline to a town trust tell on me, for goodness sake. )

[VysePresident]

Screw you.

[VysePresident]

Ugh, sorry.

[VysePresident]

Just enjoying the snark in our PT.

"I lynched you as obvious Town, so I suck & deserve to die".

[VysePresident]

Just go to heck Molla.

[VysePresident]

The Red Jaguers Challenge the Orange Iguanas.

VOTE: VysePresident

I'm mostly just challenging the Iguanas for the heck of hopefully semi-redeeming myself after endgame. Elbirn is Town on everything, Fire is Town based on single aspects of his play. It's just my last wild guess.

I"m not even going to try to push it. Either you see it or you don't, and I'm just done. If you're going to policy lynch me, whatever. It's not like Fire won't hammer in a heartbeat anyway. I guess I've earned it. I know Titus pushed Fire. I know there's probably a long list or whatever in your QT. You're just the one that's Town.

Molla can yell at me or whatever in endgame. The darn worst part of it is, I thought you actually meant it when you apologized dude. One way or another, you didn't, and I'm calling bull.

I'm out of options. Enjoy.

Night.

Screw this game.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, the neighborhood ranting is just toxic. I'm done.

I was Town. Bye.

[VysePresident]

TEHN SCREW ME OKAY?!

[VysePresident]

I"m tired of being called names for just playing the freaking game.

Maybe I'm wrong and this trolling. If it is, congrats, I'm maybe even more furious wiht you MOlla.

The idea that I'm somehow scum for laughing about surviving & a Town win is just stupid.

This whol thing is sutpipd

I'm done.

[VysePresident]

Thanks though.

Laughing helps make this fun again.

I feel like the quickest way to go insane is to take oneself too seriously.

Quoted for reference.

[VysePresident]

Oh?

This game is stilll going?

[VysePresident]

And Fire literally just confirmed himself as Town.

I freaking suck.

VOTE: Fire

[VysePresident]

Er

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Elbirn

[VysePresident]

Do I get last words?

[VysePresident]

Now I don't know what to say.

I really don't see Elbirn as scum. Heck, I'm nominating him for a a freaking scummy for this game. I don't really see it.

I just don't want to end it here.

[VysePresident]

Actually, one thing if you can wait 15 odd minutes.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: Honestly, Elb, I'm cool with that. I'm just going to be at work in a bit too anyway, so if you guys could wait about 9-10 hours? Or at least 7? You've legitimately earned a win, so yeah, I'm cool with fighting you for it man to man. I'm not giving it to you though. I'll nominate you for a scummy no matter what, but you're not getting the win free. (Probably not the Rising Star one, if only because there's no way Plotinus doesn't have that one on lockdown. I think there's one for individual scum play though.)

---

Really, all I've got is how I'm not as stupid as it would take for me to be scum here. I didn't lie when I pointed out how I was the driving force behind all three scum lynches, or how I jumped off at literally the last second. (And I basically promised I wanted to lynch both Kaito & Suz when Molla was dying, so...yeah.)

I don't know Fire. Even my last ditch play on you was obviously wrong. Do tell why the heck ScumVyse alienates people. I can show you my scum game, if you want.

If it's any small comfort, I'm pretty sure nobody's yelling at you. Even in the unlikely event that the Mod, or Ved & Kaito after being the first two to die, or eventually Titus didn't spoil the scum's identity, it's going to be freaking obvious in the end.

It's me who's going to get a hard time. If nothing else, Molla & Dav are mad as all get out with me. Molla is furious. You should have seen the neighborhood. (And incidentally, do you really think scum me posts a GG to Molla and gloats about a Town win in the neighborhood? I made no effort to play it up, and it's only due to Molla's irritation that it ever left the neighborhood. Does that look like ScumVyse?)

I just want to win, I guess. It's a small thing, and I figure they'll still be mad, but at least I don't have to get all the crap about throwing the game.

Yeah, you know exactly what I mean. Molla was borderline abusive in the neighborhood thread, the freaking hypocrite.

I guess I'm asking you to take one last chance. Nobody's going to be mad at you for mislynching me, unless they're stupid hypocrites. It's safe. Even in the event that nobody from the scumteam spoiled the game, nor the mod, it's going to be pretty freaking obvious what a crappy position you were in should I be mislynched here. I will freaking yell at them myself if they jump all over you.

I guess I'm just doing a bloody

wonderful

job convincing you not to mislynch me, aren't I? I'm basically talking up my death, like some kind of idiot. I just don't want to AtE you, or at least, not abuse you, because there's no freaking way this doesn't count as some kind of appeal.

I guess I'm asking you to take one last chance. Don't take the easy way. I want to be able to at least say we won this in the thread, while Molla's yelling how I don't deserve it, and Dav thinks I'm an idiot. I'm going to lay out a path whereby Elb could possibly be scum, and defend my own play, not because I really see Elb as scum, but because there's no darn way for me to believe otherwise anymore. I don't want to make this just me begging you. I want this to be something I can at least say I did right, I guess. I'm just an idiot, and he must be enjoying getting revenge on me for Midnight Sun.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit: Honestly, Elb, I'm cool with that. I'm just going to be at work in a bit too anyway, so if you guys could wait about 9-10 hours? Or at least 7? You've legitimately earned a win, so yeah, I'm cool with fighting you for it man to man. I'm not giving it to you though. I'll nominate you for a scummy no matter what, but you're not getting the win free. (Probably not the Rising Star one, if only because there's no way Plotinus doesn't have that one on lockdown. I think there's one for individual scum play though.)

---

Really, all I've got is how I'm not as stupid as it would take for me to be scum here. I didn't lie when I pointed out how I was the driving force behind all three scum lynches, or how I jumped off at literally the last second. (And I basically promised I wanted to lynch both Kaito & Suz when Molla was dying, so...yeah.)

I don't know Fire. Even my last ditch play on you was obviously wrong. Do tell why the heck ScumVyse alienates people. I can show you my scum game, if you want.

If it's any small comfort, I'm pretty sure nobody's yelling at you. Even in the unlikely event that the Mod, or Ved & Kaito after being the first two to die, or eventually Titus didn't spoil the scum's identity, it's going to be freaking obvious in the end.

It's me who's going to get a hard time. If nothing else, Molla & Dav are mad as all get out with me. Molla is furious. You should have seen the neighborhood. (And incidentally, do you really think scum me posts a GG to Molla and gloats about a Town win in the neighborhood? I made no effort to play it up, and it's only due to Molla's irritation that it ever left the neighborhood. Does that look like ScumVyse?)

I just want to win, I guess. It's a small thing, and I figure they'll still be mad, but at least I don't have to get all the crap about throwing the game.

Yeah, you know exactly what I mean. Molla was borderline abusive in the neighborhood thread, the freaking hypocrite.

I guess I'm asking you to take one last chance. Nobody's going to be mad at you for mislynching me, unless they're stupid hypocrites. It's safe. Even in the event that nobody from the scumteam spoiled the game, nor the mod, it's going to be pretty freaking obvious what a crappy position you were in should I be mislynched here. I will freaking yell at them myself if they jump all over you.

I guess I'm just doing a bloody

wonderful

job convincing you not to mislynch me, aren't I? I'm basically talking up my death, like some kind of idiot. I just don't want to AtE you, or at least, not abuse you, because there's no freaking way this doesn't count as some kind of appeal.

I guess I'm asking you to take one last chance. Don't take the easy way. I want to be able to at least say we won this in the thread, while Molla's yelling how I don't deserve it, and Dav thinks I'm an idiot. I'm going to lay out a path whereby Elb could possibly be scum, and defend my own play, not because I really see Elb as scum, but because there's no darn way for me to believe otherwise anymore. I don't want to make this just me begging you. I want this to be something I can at least say I did right, I guess. I'm just an idiot, and he must be enjoying getting revenge on me for Midnight Sun.

[VysePresident]

Firebringer, I have to ask you something. I need a favor. A huge favor. A solid. You have to do me a solid. You can't defy the sanctity of the solid.

I need you to not vote until I've said my peace. Because I'm going to work, and I'm not losing this game because I can't be here to defend myself from Vyse's AtE. We've had too many lynches pushed by "lol trust me", fuck that we are discussing this.

I'm not losing to that. If we lose we're losing because I met vyse in a battle of wits and he out smarted me.

I will be on tonight. I expect to have a mountain of content for ya.

Please?

Seriously dude, this is definitely fair, and I look forward to it. This game is actually getting fun again.

Just let me get back from work too, okay?

Let's keep this fair fight a fair fight.

[VysePresident]

By the way, this game is obviously ending soon, and Midnight Sun #2 is in signups.

I kinda want you both to be there.

Elbirn, after what you pulled off here, I'm

ordering

you to join. I

will

get my revenge sooner or later.

[VysePresident]

Here's signups & everything, with four slots left as of the time of this post.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, I'm just relieved it worked.

This is the third time I've missed a mislynch by a hair.

Why would scum say this crap?
IT'S SO SCUMMY!!!!

Because I didn't care anymore. I thought it didn't matter.

Yeah.

Take that as you will.

[VysePresident]

I'm going to work. This just needed to be done. Fire isn't scum and if he is he deserves to win. But a million things lately look like he's town telling all over the place

I can't see me doing anything but lynching vyse

I'm jealous of your confidence.

[VysePresident]

Aw, frick.

This is the day I need to go in early.

Later, I hope. I should be on briefly around 10 PM my time, and more substantially closer to 12-1 AM. (It's 3:36 as of the time I write this post, and I need to leave in nine minutes, and I haven't even eaten breakfast. )

[VysePresident]

Heck, with a freaking selfvote on me, and a challenge, it wouldn't even matter if you were Town or Scum, I was dead.

And the last time somebody played around with a challenge, it was counted as serious, so...yeah.

Tell me how that one goes well for ScumVyse again?

[VysePresident]

I'm out for real now.

Later guys.

[VysePresident]

I'm won't complain if you just lynch him.

But yeah, let's make this a battle.

[VysePresident]

Also, loving the self-made flavor, Titus.

[VysePresident]

I'm actually not quite back yet, just checking in.

I will say, it's good to relax & clear my mind. I'm actually looking forward to playing in a couple of hours.

[VysePresident]

I don't know if it would help you out Fire, but here's a typical scum game[/url of mine, and a recent Towngame.

I did cherry pick the Town one, because it's a pretty clear example of what I did as Town the last time something like this happened. The other shows what I typically try to do as scum. Both are offsite, so I can probably dig up one here soon. (This would explain why you would set up a wiki page, outside of ego. )

If you want me to give more, feel free. I don't think you're much of a meta player, but even a glance at my general tone should help a bit.

[VysePresident]

*Reposted with fixed links. Preview is our friend.

I don't know if it would help you out Fire, but here's a typical scum game of mine, and a recent Towngame.

[VysePresident]

*Reposted with fixed links. Preview is our friend.

I don't know if it would help you out Fire, but here's a typical scum game of mine, and a recent Towngame.

[VysePresident]

I give up. >_<

Oh my gosh, lol.

[VysePresident]

Hi, I'm sorta here, if a little busy.

I'll try to answer stuff as it happens.

[VysePresident]

I'd like to point out that it is incredibly telling that vyse has raised zero points against me, and is simply gg'ing me on a good game.

It's almost as if I didn't prepare a case against you, because I didn't think I'd be facing another phase after Molla!

Dude, I'll link you to all my scum games, if you'll give me a few. I am

never

at a loss for a point.

He can't show that I'm scum because I'm not fucking scum.

Or maybe because I misread you?

Fire this is vyse. He nailed me in a morning sun. Fucking day 1. The man can read me. Why is it that in this game he gets down to lylo with me, after never pushing me once in the entire game, and when it's a 1v1 gladiator (essentially), the only thing he does is throw his hands up in the air and go "idk, I don't see elbirn scum! Hoiteetoiblimblamaram, I'm vyse ate ate ate"

This basically boils down to Vyse is magic. I love the compliments, but no. I'll illustrate if for you in a second, via quotes from that game I linked. For now, just no. I've looked at your ISO, and you've done far less for me to work with.

I took sleeping medication because I was having a very rough time sleeping last night. I woke up sometime just before noon. I did some stuff, watched Youtube, then I checked the thread shortly before leaving for work.

This was not a productive day for me, and I left this game on substantial abuse from Molla last night. I saw no path to victory. You're scumreading me for saying screw it, at the time when, as scum, I'm supposed to have almost won?

I'm not talking me literally saying 'screw it', because sure, that's probably something I could fake at this point. It's the literal act of not showing up to argue my case, at the most time sensitive point that ought to be telling. I don't generally stay apathetic long, but it is a thing.

The only content he has is

1. Elbirn must be scum because I'm not
2. Why would I do this thing as scum it'd be dumb of me
3. Ateateate elbirn sure did play a good scum game, you guys wanna play another game together?

I remember getting pushed last game for 'not doing enough.' Suzune had a field day with that one, and I bought it from that evil little genius.

EFFORT. IS. NOT. INHERENTLY. ALIGNMENT. INDICATIVE.

I wrote it in caps see? It's obviously truer now. (But really, you saw me last game. I'm not lazy Town per se, but I have moments. To pretend that I'm not being active during the most critical point of the game as a scum strategy, or an inability to BS my way through things is ridiculous.)

I don't even have to respond to that first point, and as for the second: because either you suck at scum and made mistakes, or you did it all on purpose for the towncred. Like really do I even have to explain the strategic advantage that comes with pushing a buddy but never actually putting them in a grave? Having all the towncred of bussing without playing against your win con? Cuz thats...that's what you did.

Except that's blatantly not what happened?

I bussed Vedith to the edge of the grave, got tons of support, then randomly jumped off. Granted, Molla was appearing like a counterwagon at the time, but it very quickly died. I think it's pretty obvious from my post saying to heck with him that I'd been following it a bit. Then, when support was obviously drifting to Vedith again...why don't I jump back on board?

You say this is a choice between me being stupid or possibly gaining Towncred & failing. Tell me how even the most direct, bold ScumVyse could possibly see a benefit to doing anything else? You're literally accusing me of not reading the thread, or not understanding it, when

the whole reason I scumread you last game was because I have a very decent record of spotting trends & figuring out if they're forced or natural.

Good Townplay & good scumplay are almost synomous, if you can just make a couple minor adjustments. Frankly, I'm better as scum than Town right now. Just glance at the links I keep giving you guys. It's not hard.

Again, what about Kaito? There was never a second when he was in a good spot, and everyone was hard-supporting a lynch on him when I jumped off. Incidentally, my vote was early enough that if it wasn't changed, it would have bought me a lot of Town credit. Are you going to say that was me trying to save him? Or thinking there was a remote chance he'd have survived?

Do you really think I'm that stupid? Or are you saying there's Towncred in the WIFOM that could possibly be of more value than

He's not doing shit because he cant, and he is downright *hammy* about it. He's loving this.[/quote]

I'll pull up some TownVyse quotes from the Game I Keep Linking That Nobody Ever Looks At. This is bull.

Again, I've barely had a chance to sit down & think about this, because I've basically been elsewhere engaged all day.

I seem to recall Scumyou pushing Klingon as scum on the grounds of her not having enough strong reads. (Yes, on the offchance anyone forgot, she was also scum. Take that as you will.)

[VysePresident]

Just saying, formatting sucks.

I'm trying to fix my quotes, hang on.

[VysePresident]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I can do this.

VOTE: Suzune. That's a hammer. It might even be an extra, but I'm pretty sure it's the hammer.

Red Jaguers challenge Blue Barrracudas

VOTE: Davsto

I actually had to check the name twice before I made that challenge.

It is a hammer, but I am phone posting on my lunchbreak and can't do a proper votecount.

Suzune was a Brave Explorer!

It is now Day 8. Nobody has been challenged yet.

Red Jaguers challenge Blue Barracudas

VOTE: Davsto.

It's been fun, but I'm ready to end the game.

Lol I lied I had this in another tab

This literally proves that vyse knew that his challenge earlier wouldn't count and that he did it for ~☆Da tOwN cReD☆~

Given that the mod literally said no screwing with the votes/challenges afterwards...:/

[VysePresident]

Wait no, that was regarding Shiro's challenge.

Screw everything.

[VysePresident]

I'd like to point out that it is incredibly telling that vyse has raised zero points against me, and is simply gg'ing me on a good game.

It's almost as if I didn't prepare a case against you, because I didn't think I'd be facing another phase after Molla!

Dude, I'll link you to all my scum games, if you'll give me a few. I am

never

at a loss for a point.

He's not doing shit because he cant, and he is downright *hammy* about it. He's loving this.

I'll pull up some TownVyse quotes from the Game I Keep Linking That Nobody Ever Looks At. This is bull.

Vyse also appears to be trying to convince *me* that he's town.

Like he's not aware that from my pov I know he's scum. Like he's trying to pretend he has the same pov as me but he doesn't.

Is this a shitty point? Someone tell me post game if this is nonsense or not pls.

You really don't see that this is blatant sarcasm, Elbirn? :/

Like, you're trying to turn this on me? Seriously?

Incidentally, it's meant to be very tongue in cheek, and friendly. I honestly don't want a repeat of how Molla & I parted ways for this game.

[VysePresident]

Please don't