Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[massive]

OK, I'm caught up. Had I known this was going to start on a weekend, I would have skipped the Great American Beer Festival and sat at home and waited.

I like farside (gut), Concrete Angels (same thought patterns). I'm curious to see where this Vedith thing goes.

VOTE: Hecatia

I was following along with CA's train of thought, liked that they called Sakura out on something (Sakura even says "increased suspicion" in 77 when what she really means is "actually started suspecting" since her initial vote was a sheep on a wagon she clearly knew was just for RVS), which she then IMMEDIATELY repeats, and then, when the heat picks up, the second head arrives to say what Sakura should have said all along which was "for the sake of the flowchart" which I assume means "to continue to see what happened with the wagon, without all this pretense about slight town reads or slight scum reads which I then have to back up."

[massive]

I wonder how many semantic arguments for me being scum im going to get by the end of the day

Trying to pass this off as a "semantics argument," in a game where word choice and semantics are the bread and butter of every argument, sounds kinda like "caught for the wrong reasons."

[massive]

@Massive - why do you think the semantic defense angle is hogwash and suggests scum dodging? And, if you don't, why the swipe at Hecatia?

Well, for one, I don't think this is semantics, and I've already said so, or at least inferred it in 212. So if what you're asking is "is her defense hogwash", then yes, it's hogwash. I think it's easy for people to slip by and say "Oh, that's clearly not what I meant" but be unable to explain WHY something is being misunderstood or, especially in this case, deflect off to either their other hydra head or to the excuse of being a non-native English speaker.

Sakura said Davsto was a scumread. She said you are a townread. She cannot explain how her actions show this without resorting to examples from AFTER she started acting on these beliefs. That's not word selection. When pressed, the game became hard and she needed a break so her hydra partner could back her up.

This would have been easy to walk past. Sakura says "I like joining RVS wagons. I had no read on either Davsto or Thor." Done. Instead, she laid out all this BS about having scumreads and townreads based on one or two posts and backtracked when called on it. It's not semantics. It's scumantics (tm).

[massive]

I think massive was going for a case on subtleties, but this looks like scum nitpicking to look like he's making a case.

Did you read the section when the actual discourse on this stuff was going on between Hecatia and Concrete Angels?

[massive]

Yeah I'm really not liking the Hecatia wagon. It seems minimal effort. I also like Concrete Angels a lot less for joining onto that wagon with the reason of easy to mis lynch.

Is this because you really feel that this is true because you didn't read any of the interaction between Sakura-hydra and Concrete Angels (it happened during your "mysterious only-this-game absence") or because you're trying to deflect from your scum partner?

[massive]

Dig deeper massive, you might hit gold. Or is this as far as your efforts go?

This is far enough for my efforts, since you seem content at mudslinging, I think that fairly answers my question.

[massive]

What, was me saying "farside town (gut)" not good enough for you?

[massive]

So, you obviously think Hecatia is scum. and 308 and 349 suggest that you think I am also scum.
So who else would fall under your scum section here? Anyone particularly town for you? Even if it's a 'gut feeling'...

I don't know if you're scum or just grumpy. It doesn't behoove me to interact with you further because most of the time that just makes ME grumpy, and when I get grumpy, I tunnel. I've also already noted that I find Concrete Angels townish because I actually read the part where they question Sakura / Hecatia, and found myself thinking the same thing as they posted a lot of the time. I don't think I've ever played with Thor but I've read a few of his games and while I like his gameplay thus far, I think his general gameplay as either alignment is designed to do exactly this, so I'm a bit hedgy, but so far leaning town. Ank seems distracted which seems unusual. Everyone else is mostly To Be Sorted.

[massive]

I can't imagine reading the last two pages and still thinking Sakura ISN'T scum. "Oh woe is me, people are scumreading me when I'm town!"

How many games have you played with Ank?

One where he was in a hydra (Guardians of the Galaxy II) and I thought one as just Ankamius, but I can't find it.

Regarding Ankamius in general: I thought 234 was indicative of skimming and asked about it in 240, which as far as I know got ignored (it was a little snarky). His townread on Hecatia is based on "more town markers than scum" (80) and he even hedges that, but somehow it's still a strong enough read to defend her.

I could probably say the same things about Ank + Hecatia as you did about Ank + me, is that good or bad? Is it more or less indicative that Ank is scum?

[massive]

Ankamius

: Considering how your wagon formed versus how Hecatia's formed, do you still consider them town?

[massive]

Massive: I'll go into specifics later if I remember, but my operating theory atm is scum in Cataphant+Davsto+This+(LyingCat+farside22+Wingback+Bulge+Massive) where nullish people are in parentheses.

If that's correct, then how do you explain the surge in people jumping to vote you? Why wouldn't scum just continue to push for Hecatia's lynch?

False dichotomy and loaded question. It has been noted.

What's false about it? It's only a false dichotomy if Ankamius didn't believe Hecatia was town, which he explicitly had already stated. There's no insistence on Ank's alignment one way or the other, so I don't even see a dichotomy period.

[massive]

Ank & Wingback -- let's work together on this? Can we agree a lynch target between the three of us?

Hecatia -- who's the scum on Ank's wagon?

( as of last vote count -- Ankamius - 4 (The Bulge, Vedith, Thor665, Hecatia Lapislazuli) )

[massive]

I'm here. I'm reading. I'm surprised to see a Nacho. brb.

[massive]

Although now that I read his iso again I don't like the buddying in 657.

Me either, this is new ground for me. When I first started playing a decade ago, it was enough to just hunt scum, but one thing that I need to learn is how to better work with my townreads. This is me attempting to do so.

both ninjas

uh what?

I would have done exactly this had I not done exactly this for the "scum have daytalk" slip earlier and then gone back and read all the rules, ha.

Since then, massive has been rather underwhelming and I'd have hoped to see his reads being fleshed out in depth but nothing really happened.

It's only Day One, cat. Having rough reads on half the town is about where I get by then. If you want more, ask me on Day Three.

Hecatia

: Who were the other characters you listed in your U-Pick email?

I'm going to go with Massive just because how absurdly underwhelmed I'm getting based on the lack of content.

Soo ... I guess this means we won't be a townblock after all? *sniff* Also, that was a damn quick turnaround from "OK let's work together" to "his reads need to be fleshed out" to "here, enjoy my vote" and all of it was on the weekend.

[massive]

You're both town, obviously.

Did this make anyone else's skin crawl a little?

[massive]

massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.

This makes me super curious about WHY you would ignore me. Not that I have a huge ego or anything, and I don't think I've overly played with either of your heads, but I don't think anyone's ever said they felt OK ignoring me.

[massive]

Phonereading. Getting on a plane in a min so it may not last.

[massive]

Oh! Look! Discrediting! My favourite!

You came out of your "NKA" with a null. You've said that pistachi0n is more suspicious than either of the two you quoted in that. So why the defensive posturing here? If you have CA as a null, why immediately jump to accuse them of discrediting you?

[massive]

To be honest massive, this is discrediting to an extent. Reads more townie though. It's "shit you're right I need to reduce your credibility" and more "look, I'm more experienced than you, don't assume that what you found was the sole truth."

That's nice and all, and might be true, but it doesn't answer the question in any way.

Still curious,

Hecatia

, who you submitted as your other two U-Pick choices. Wouldn't hurt to hear the same from Davsto.

[massive]

You need to explain that Nacho town read to me. I don't see it.
Troll or not, play or not it is all null with him

Have you never played a game with Nacho where you felt comfortable with his alignment one way or the other? Aside from knowing it as scum, of course.

[massive]

Have you? Is it easy to tell?

That's an interesting defense of farside there, which means we're getting somewhere. The question wasn't about whether Nacho is an able scum player (he is) but to try and get a bead on how earnest farside's non-read was.

I think I been duped more times then I can count.

This is a different answer than "rarely." "Rarely" says "I never have an idea what Nacho is, town or scum." This says "I usually have an idea what Nacho is, but then I turn out to be wrong." This doesn't say "it's all null with him," which is what your earlier post said.

[massive]

You've played plenty with me before. This is nothing different than my normal amount of play. Why are you feigning frustration at it now?

[massive]

At this rate, I'm more likely to follow Ank than I am Davsto.

[massive]

How should townies respond to being discredited by a townread?

Did you feel it was discrediting? You have the benefit of reading it after it happened, so I'm curious of your answer.

Why is this difference significant?

Because I think farside should have an idea of which way she thinks you lean, and I wanted to see if her "null on Nacho" read had any legitimacy.

I don't like your recent posting because it feel like you're nitpicking pretty hard - what do you think of Cataphant? What do you think of Vedith?

I just reread Cataphant since it was short, and while I see some things I like and can agree with, the one thing I'm unsure about from today is about the Thor / Pistachi0n connection. It seems like Cataphant has a somewhat-decent case against Thor, and that Pistachi0n is guilty solely by association to Thor. But it reads like Cataphant is completely ignoring the possibility that Thor could just be white-knighting a town Pistachi0n. Basically -- when I read Cataphant's posts, I expect them to be voting for Thor based on their posts, but they continue to push Pistachi0n, which makes no sense to me. I'm also not crazy about their reluctance to adjust their read on farside, but that could be adding in some personal bias and might not be indicative of anything.

Vedith's entry into the game contained some back-biting remarks that made it seem like he wasn't reading the game very carefully, and honestly I find this town. Scum who have had to be prodded twice to come back to the game would read arguments more closely, I would think. His logic in 434 feels very towny to me as well. I liked his attempts to figure out the game on D1 and would like for him to pick that back up more today, but I'm OK with feeling townish about him.

And there's no innocent on me. There's a "not guilty, not yet anyways." So don't let that stop you -- bring it, bro.

[massive]

What is her angle here if scum?
What you're implying in hunting for a contradiction here is that she's lying, and thus scum - but why would farside lie as scum about past experience with me?

Her angle here as scum is to avoid interaction with you specifically to avoid you getting a good read, or to leave you open as a possible mislynch down the road, or to prevent any scum-scum connection from forming if you're both scum. Honestly, there's plenty of possible angles here, and it's not "lying about past experience" that concerns me, it's whether or not she really has no read on you in THIS game. I guess what I'm saying is, even if you're playing the game of your life as scum, or are being a great townie, wouldn't you expect everyone in this game to have SOME sort of feeling about your alignment?

Can you talk about this more?
What are Cataphant's good points against Thor?

"Somewhat-decent" may be a bad choice of words, since what is interesting to me about it is not its quality, but its proximity to the Pistachi0n read which he is willing to act on, but seems less well-formed than his Thor read.

[massive]

I'm paying attention and I have no idea why you think I should think you're town.

[massive]

Am I confused why we're voting Nacho?

[massive]

If someone who is voting for Nacho would tell me why they're voting, then I would know.

[massive]

I would like to see Ank, massive, and Vedith show up and at least offer top scumspect of the moment.
That would advance the game a bit more.

I'm here. I think my top scumspect at the moment is farside. And Davsto, for someone that everyone pretty much seems agreed is town, is playing the least town game by a confirmed townie I can remember since being back.

I want to go back and look at pistachi0n and farside and then I don't know what. I feel good about Ank and ETL and, to some degree, Vedith.

[massive]

Pistachi0n reread.

157 & 164 soft-defends Vedith / says "if I wanted an easy wagon, I'd jump on Vedith." We know now he did want an easy wagon, so this actually looks like counterwagoning away from Vedith. 503 still soft-defending the Vedith wagon. 1275 throws shade on Davsto which might make Davsto actually town. His insta-analysis in 1347-1350 give anyone any clues?

[massive]

Why do you feel good about Ank?

Started around the time of his wagon D1 and hasn't abated. It's not all gut but I'd have to really go back and reread his ISO.

I'm probably a no for voting Nacho. I reread Farside and really wanted her to do something super scummy but I can't find it. Might go back and reread Vedith since there was some connection with Pistach there.

[massive]

Can you tell us the name of your role please? And the other two names that were chosen, if you know them?

[massive]

I was thinking of character claiming because as I said my role said there was a character in the game that could commute and I wondered if the player was scum because I couldn't do it if that player did it.

You're going to have to give us details because now that we know that the "other commuter" is Norman, it lines up that you're Mother and that's not a good thing.

I townread Massive and even so I'm surprised with the strength of support he's getting now.

As normally I'm a prime candidate for a mislynch around D2-3, I'm just as surprised as you are. For whatever reason, scum have been afraid of pushing me ... or possibly happy to leave me be? But that's not something to really dig into today.

[massive]

Why, it's you pick?
Characters mean nothing.

Because Anti's obviously done his homework and done a very good job matching the roles that ultimately we received with the characters we play. Whether you want to argue that specific characters can't be scum simply because it's U-Pick, that's fine, but I'm more curious who you picked that lines up as a half-commuter better than Norma / Mother, who we know impacted Norman's commuting. And I'm willing to help you reveal that.

VOTE: farside

[massive]

Also, Judy Barton as a post-death backup is sheer genius.

[massive]

Also, can people stop just voting me with no reason and give a reason that isn't WIFOM or coasting? Because basically all of the reasons so far have been WIFOM and coasting.

Coasting sounds like an awful fine reason to vote you. (Your role claim is basically the only thing keeping you alive right now -- or do you not remember we almost lynched you D1?) Directing our actual investigative role doesn't hurt either, and you being scum and knowing Hecatia was following your lead gives you a pretty good reason to not have to kill her N1.

[massive]

And yet was a good enough reason for me to kill her N2?

How many more investigative roles could there be? You got the role cop N1 so really there was no need to let her stick around.

[massive]

@Massive - I was kind of with you on the idea of Mother = bad, but then I went and reread Pistach's flip.
How is Mother necessarily bad exactly?

The two commutes are complementary and therefore have to be the same team -- otherwise if Mother / Norma was town, why wouldn't she just commute herself every night? No, the wording of the ability makes it sound much more like the two can coordinate the ability.

[massive]

Thor's "Davsto's play in regards to Nacho is so terrible that it looks townish" is a white knight if I ever saw one.

Do you think you need white-knighting?

[massive]

I've never interpreted it that way. I interpreted what he said as "I claimed an innocent on hiplop to try and draw a nightkill." I'm not sure why there's so much confusion.

[massive]

I'm going to read up now but I assume both Massive and Thor have confirmed that they are neighbors with you.

I hadn't, but I will do so now.

That does presume an infinite commuter - so your argument is double scum unlimited commuters?

Well, since I'm not privy to how the commuters work in this game, would you like to explain it to me? Farside has claimed the second half of the commute mechanism in the game but has basically been tight-lipped about how it works or whether she's Norma, so if you're saying you think she's town, then we're both just speculating helplessly.

Vedith:

How is hippy confirmed town.

My role.

I'm not claiming that I knew hiplop was town from the start.
And I didn't use an action last night (or night 1).

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Backup should be a one-shot, and there's no indication it's not here. No one's gotten fruit that we know of (D1 lynch). But you can ask him to confirm this. And while I don't disagree that changing his hiplop "confirmed town" from role-based to draw-a-kill isn't an "easy way out," it should NOT be breeding this kind of confusion over what he said or meant. Anyone can read his ISO (like I just did) and see exactly what he did. Even farside has now had to shift her attack from the confusion angle to the "lying about a result" angle.

[massive]

I want more information on her role. I asked for it. She has refused. It's not hard to see the role connection and her refusal combined as scummy. Is her role so independent from her play here that you feel justified separating the two?

[massive]

Hmm that is not what I was expecting from Ank. Not saying Roger Thornhill isn't a perfectly acceptable role (probably one of the most recognizable characters) but I was expecting a more obtuse role. Who else did you submit, Ank?

[massive]

VOTE: Ankamius

[massive]

unvote

OK. I want to know your info, no "going last" nonsense or the vote goes back.

[massive]

OK then we're cool again. That's plenty for me.

[massive]

I'm LB Jeffries from Rear Window. My ability should be fairly obvious. I can tell you that Ank and I both visited Nacho N2 -- that's what he's referring to here:

You're the person I want to claim before I give my results because you're the only person I have information on that I have no information on yet.

I guess I'll withhold anything else because it's looking like hiplop is the odd man out here.

[massive]

I'm a Singular Watcher. I can pick one person and see all their visitors, but I'm stuck watching the same person until they die.

[massive]

massive, did you get roleblocked last night y/n

I did not get roleblocked last night.

[massive]

Davsto didn't block you last night, hiplop. He visited Nacho again.

[massive]

Ank et al: Four.

[massive]

When I saw Ank visited Nacho N2 and then Nacho came out with an innocent on hiplop, I outed my info to ETL. I figured Ank was some sort of amnesiac cop and was sending results to Nacho that night. That's why ETL was on farside about the possibilities of how Nacho could have actually gotten an inno. Obviously moot now.

[massive]

We've only had 3 nights. Since I was going to get stuck watching one person and the role PM made it sound like I only got one shot, I forewent N1 to get a better read on players. I watched Nacho N2 and N3.

[massive]

There's no way Ank is scum unless you're saying he's a Mafia Watcher. He went to Nacho N2 and Nacho didn't die, and he has the other visitors to Nacho N2 correct, which he could guess at but not be 100% confident like he is if he were say a Rolecop or something. No, Ank is practically the ONLY confirmed townie in my book.

[massive]

Who the hell are you even talking about?

[massive]

Because I was suspicious Of Davsto and him setting up N2 with Hecatia. I actually expected to catch him lying. I wasn't going to see any NKs in theory, so it was about trying to use my power on someone I expected to live a while and catch scum some other way.

[massive]

Honestly, farside, I can't imagine you botching this up so badly as scum.

Here is my silly question, what did that tell you about both there alignments by doing that?

Well, it showed me that (a) they weren't lying about their night choices and (b) they trusted each other enough to stick to their mutual plan. Why are those not important pieces of information?

In this game, with all the ninja action, watchers are going to have to work to find townies. I'm sorry you have this narrow view on how my ability should be used, but there it is. Also

You keep protecting your scum buddy there.
I'll ask the hard questions he'll dodge.

There's no way you really believe BOTH of the claimed watchers are scum together, right?

[massive]

Massive has never said he was a ninja. Or targeted Nacho N1. And yeah you must have missed multiple memos.

[massive]

RE: Why do you think kills can't be tracked? We know from the OP that there is a mafia ninja who can perform the kills unseen. We caught the backup ninja, sure, but that makes it more likely that post-Pistachi0n the ninja is doing the kills.

[massive]

I'm trying to think of possible ways that Ank could be scum, and I just don't see it. He knew I was visiting Nacho N2 and he didn't track me there (over watching Nacho) because I know Ank targeted Nacho N2. So there's no other explanation for his knowledge. Scum watcher makes zero sense.

I'm likely to vote Vedith. Not only is his claim suspicious given the timing of it, but honestly Tony Wendice as an ascetic doesn't make a lot of sense either.

[massive]

VOTE: farside

[massive]

There's no way farside should expect us to believe that she's read well enough today to change her opinion on Nacho, after blatantly and obviously failing at reading comprehension around the watcher claims.

[massive]

There's no way farside should expect us to believe that she's read well enough today to change her opinion on Nacho, after blatantly and obviously failing at reading comprehension around the watcher claims.

I don't understand the point you're making here.

The point is this: Numerous times today, farside based her reactions and scumreads on information that was straight-up false -- wrong targets, wrong dates of night activities, and angrily questioning things that don't make sense primarily because she didn't read them correctly. This has been pointed out to her numerous times by numerous players. She's exhibited no interest in going back and rereading what she got wrong. Let's say she's genuine in wanting to hunt down scum; how on earth does she feel confident enough to backtrack on her read on you? How, in whatever activities she performed to change her read on you, did she not see the reading comprehension mistakes she made and adjust her read on Ank / myself to at least take into consideration our actual claimed results?

If you want to say she's doing half the work and giving in to confirmation bias, fine. Does that sound like farside's town game?

[massive]

Yeah those points I made about aronis came from thin air.

There's not even an "aronis" IN THIS GAME

[massive]

Pistachi0n reread.

157 & 164 soft-defends Vedith / says "if I wanted an easy wagon, I'd jump on Vedith." We know now he did want an easy wagon, so this actually looks like counterwagoning away from Vedith. 503 still soft-defending the Vedith wagon. 1275 throws shade on Davsto which might make Davsto actually town. His insta-analysis in 1347-1350 give anyone any clues?

Re-read my own ISO and could vote for Vedith. Not forgetting about farside at all though.

[massive]

Dang, never again will I responsibly use a power. NIGHT ONE VIGS FOR EVERYONE

[massive]

If I conveniently didn't use my ability N1 because I thought I might be investigated, how do you explain me being seen N2 using my ability on a person who didn't die?

[massive]

I'm here, trying to quickly catch up.

[massive]

Ank, Davesto, and hiplop all visited Nacho last night. I still want to lynch farside as I could see her no-killing in this situation, but the Nacho thing is hard to ignore. im trying not to wifom the crap out of myself.

[massive]

Assuming Ank as a possibility means assuming you and Davsto as a possibility. It means he has a secondary ability that he can only use instead of killing. But Ank is even less likely to be scum, because rather than target Nacho last night, he could have killed me and gotten the same result.

I also now think farside would have taken a shot at Ank, knowing you roughly trusted her and Davsto and I were essentially locked on Nacho.

Nacho logically makes the most sense.

[massive]

If we get down to three and it's me/Davsto/someone, I will lynch Davsto. Just sayin'.

I need to really re-read some stuff because I while logically it should be Nacho, I just can't get past farside and I can't get myself past ruling out the possibility of the rest of you using my forced watch on Nacho to clear yourself for one night.

[massive]

I feel like 434 clears Ank further. I don't think Vedith would try to set up a counterwagon on a buddy, especially not one like this which feels like a genuine logic-based push.

Wow, 210 is a huge slip. Vedith says it's likely there's one scum on his wagon and one off, and forgets that he himself is the third and to account for that. Wingback caught him but he explained it away, and we all forgot about it, but now seems like a good time to look at that wagon and see who's where:

On Vedith (VC @ 171): Concrete Angels, Thor665, Cataphant, Hecatia Lapislazuli

Interestingly, only unflipped person on that list is Cataphant who is hiplop.

747: Would Vedith-scum really ask his known-scum-partner to elaborate their scumread on their third scum-partner? Probably not.

1176: Would he scumread both his partners in a three-man scumread?

1276: Probably clears Davsto.

Soft-defends Nacho: 1231, 1270, [http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7371232]1601[/url], 1631, 1764, 2194

----

Hey Davsto, pay attention. I watched Nacho last night too and already gave the results. If anyone tried to kill him, it was you or hiplop.

[massive]

VOTE: farside

[massive]

He's been doing that basically since his claim cleared him. He's the least towniest townie ever.

And farside -- none of the roles confirm your role, or confirm that you can't or can target anyone. We have only your word which is worth about doodly.

[massive]

Still can't wrap my head around 747, which is pretty much the one thing keeping me from voting Nacho. And part of me still thinks Vedith is telling the truth in his slip-post (210) because that's the easiest way to understand the slip, and that points to hiplop being scum.

[massive]

So I reckon if I'm not voting Nacho now I should

VOTE: hiplop

[massive]

You didn't confirm me town. Hecatia's investigation of me N1 plus both ninja flips confirmed me town. As a matter of fact, you were still trying to lynch me as of yesterday.

Aaaaand hoooooolly shit how did I not catch this:

Character is dude from rear window btw

Which dude?

[massive]

I'm LB Jeffries from Rear Window. My ability should be fairly obvious.

Yeah, you kinda had to wheel on that. Although I'm pretty sure we're 1v1 at this point.

[massive]

Character - Tony Wendice
Role - Ascetic

Other choices

Norman Bates
Walter Beardsley

No way we have two ascetics too?

Davsto is obvious scum

Hiplop spends time pushing Davsto as the scum in the ascetic "pair" and not Vedith. 1977, 1979.

------

Alternately: Would hiplop vote both his scum buddies on D1? Vedith was a wagon hop but his Pistachi0n vote was pretty out there.

[massive]

Jeezus I want to lynch Davsto so bad.