Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Davsto]

I have no idea, but I'm not sure if I can see him genuinely thinking that either.

[Davsto]

Quite a few people have been going "I'd be willing to vote Dav" and the like in the previous few posts, and Thor's excuse for a townread is weak as fuck. Could be a white knight.

[Davsto]

I mean considering he was one of the first and main people to be scumreading me early game it makes surprisingly little sense there too.

[Davsto]

Considering deadline's in just over 3 days, I should start considering Thor.

[Davsto]

Uh... "Full Flip Enabler"?

[Davsto]

@mod - Could we have Thor's full Role PM so we understand what he actually does? Thanks.

[Davsto]

Ohhhhh

Full Flip Enabler

So now people only flip with their Role Names, and not their Role PMs.

FUck.

[Davsto]

I've already claimed, The Birds, Ascetic Jailkeeper, jailed Nachomamma8 every single night.

[Davsto]

I've jailed Nacho every night, and will likely do so for the foreseeable future. As far as I care, that means if he's scum I'm blocking scum (which likely has a good PR besides the main), and if he's town then I'm protecting a strong PR that doesn't currently have any actions so I'm not stopping him from being useful.

[Davsto]

I'd assume he "doesn't know" because he claiming to have inspected me, thus he'd get "No Result" regardless of whether he was blocked or not.

hip, if you're gonna claim you're Tracker, you really should tell us all of your targets and results.

PEdit or not.

[Davsto]

I mean when the scum team has a Ninja and a Backup Ninja I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we had both a Tracker and a Watcher, particularly if one or both are weakened in some way (see: Delayed Watcher).

Don't force this into a 1v1 because that means if you are both town it's an easy scum win.

[Davsto]

Role - Ascetic

So you're saying you're Ascetic? Is that some sort of counter-claim? Because it's a bit late if it is.

[Davsto]

VOTE: Vedith

Because I find it hella weird that he didn't claim Ascetic around the time that I did.

[Davsto]

I'm a Singular Watcher. I can pick one person and see all their visitors, but I'm stuck watching the same person until they die.

You've been Watching Nacho? Please confirm that I targeted him every night so that hiplop can realise I haven't blocked her kthnx.

[Davsto]

VOTE: Vedith

Because I find it hella weird that he didn't claim Ascetic around the time that I did.

You're jailor? o.0

Ascetic Jailer.

[Davsto]

UNVOTE:

That vote was super rash.

I honestly don't know.

[Davsto]

I love how you say "emphasising" when you weren't even voting me before.

If I am scum, why the hell would I target Nacho with my action each night? It makes absolutely no sense. As scum roleblocker, I wouldn't have bothered once I learnt he had no night action, since that's what you're trying to pin me as, but basically no role makes sense to continually target someone as, apart from as a Jailkeeper protecting/blocking someone.

[Davsto]

massive, talk some fucking sense into hiplop and tell him your results asap so he can concentrate on actual scum.

[Davsto]

I've jailed Nacho every night, and will likely do so for the foreseeable future. As far as I care, that means if he's scum I'm blocking scum (which likely has a good PR besides the main), and if he's town then I'm protecting a strong PR that doesn't currently have any actions so I'm not stopping him from being useful.

Regardless of my alignment, you're reducing your chances of actually blocking a kill to zero, which is strange when blocking the kill is the strongest offensive capability the jailkeeper has.

Last night in particular, if I'd have blocked any kills, I almost certainly would have been accused of being scum. I was tempted to jail ETL because I thought he was scum, for example, but that would result in me being accused of being Thor's scum partner.

Whilst stopping kills is a useful utility, I am fully aware that most town members have fairly strong PRs and I don't want to be getting in the way of them doing their things. So, I spent N1 jailing someone I thought was scum, N2 jailing Nacho again so that Hecatia could get a definite result, and N3 jailing Nacho since jailing either of ETL/Thor would be a terrible idea, I wasn't sure on the other players, whereas by jailing Nacho I am either stopping a Backup from dying (without actually blocking them from doing anything) or stopping one scum member from doing anything in terms of role actions (which they likely have a fairly powerful one) or kills (forcing only one scum member to do the kills).

[Davsto]

third night roleblocked when I went on davesto

Are you shitting me

I'm ascetic you fool of course you didn't get a result when you tracked me that's literally why I claimed so people wouldn't waste results jesus christ

[Davsto]

I'm honestly not sure what to think of hiplop because they've just been so damn stupid

"hmm I think I'll track the claimed ascetic"
"wow I didn't get a result I must have been blocked by scum that is the only logical explanation"

[Davsto]

Davsto. He was one of my biggest wildcards and no one else stood out as a good target.

Well have fun getting a No Result.

Also I feel dumb because I don't remeber what ascetic does at all.

Any non-killing actions targeting an Ascetic fail. That's why hiplop got a No Result last night, and why Ank will get a No Result tomorrow night.

[Davsto]

for some reason i had a completely wrong idea of ascetic in my head

What did you think it was?

[Davsto]

Massive tracking Nacho N2 makes perfect sense. He knows there are two people who should be targeting Nacho that night, and finding out if there actually are two people targeting Nacho that night is a very sensible use of a Watch.

[Davsto]

Massive tracking Nacho N2 makes perfect sense. He knows there are two people who should be targeting Nacho that night, and finding out if there actually are two people targeting Nacho that night is a very sensible use of a Watch.

I'm going to disagree because all it does is tell you that the player targetted Nacho.
He isn't going to see a Nk on Nacho doing it with the claims, so how does that help us find scum?
It reads as useless info to me.

You're not serious, right?

There are two people who are supposed to target Nacho. If one of them doesn't, they're probably scum. Simple as.
Tracking/Watching nightkills is borderline useless with a Ninja in the scum, unless I am lucky enough to jail said ninja.

[Davsto]

I am starting to consider Vedith, because two Ascetics is bleh.

But I doubt he'd fakeclaim ascetic when there are so many investigatives that could incriminate him by, you know, getting a result.

(Also, me being ascetic makes sense now I know there are Watchers; being a Jailkeeper makes me, if I had played well, a likely NK target, and making me unwatchable makes sense to me)

[Davsto]

But honestly, the lack of him counter-claiming when I claimed ascetic is worrying. After I claimed, many were like "yeh I'm not lynching Davsto now". If he was town, he'd be like "hang on a sec, I'm ascetic, fuck you on about?" Delaying the claim seems more like scum worried that if he tried to counterclaim, he'd be the wagon.

VOTE: Vedith

Sorry, bro, but this doesn't seem right.

[Davsto]

I am curious why massive waited to use his ability until night 2.

He has explained this; once he tracks someone, he is forced to track them for the rest of the game. Thus, he wished to make a more informed decision.

[Davsto]

EBWOP: track -> watch

[Davsto]

May I ask why?

[Davsto]

Vedith is the lynch for today, quite simply. If we decide not to lynch him for some reason, there's not much I can do about it when he's claimed ascetic other than guessing his targets (which might piss off people if I try to protect an investigative and he actually kills someone else), which is quite the pain in the ass. If we get rid of this ascetic, I can start to confirm one player as town each night by jailing them and there still being a death. With an ascetic in play, there's not much I can do in that respect.

Also he's scum.

[Davsto]

Actually wait no

UNVOTE:

[Davsto]

Actually wait yes

VOTE: Vedith

Forgot there were two scum left.

[Davsto]

I was thinking "why would the last scum be both Ninja and Ascetic", good job brain.

[Davsto]

There's a Jailer.

One scum is Ninja, so the kill can't be tracked. However, the Jailer can stop them.
The other scum is Ascetic, so they can't be blocked by the Jailer. However, they run the risk of their kill being Watched.

That makes sense, right?

[Davsto]

Maybe, this setup is getting so confusing that relying on setup spec is probably a bad idea.

[Davsto]

Holy activity drop, Batman!

[Davsto]

wtf is even thanksgiving

[Davsto]

*casually Britishes*

[Davsto]

We have just over a day left and everyone seems divided on who to lynch; we really need to come to a consensus asap.

[Davsto]

I'm not a huge fan of Farside's lynch but if it's really necessary I'll hammer before DL, a Vedith lynch is much superior in my eyes though.

Dislike the other wagons enough to not vote for them today.

[Davsto]

We have 8 hours left someone hammer Vedith please kthnx

[Davsto]

How is massive conftown?

[Davsto]

Oh, duh

Oh yeh I jailed Nacho last night in case you couldn't guess.

Three possibilities:
1) Nacho is scum
2) Scum killed Nacho
3) Scum no-killed for WIFOM.

Problem is all three of these are valid scenarios in my eyes so I'm honestly quite worried now.

[Davsto]

Actually, less likely #2, because I've made it fairly clear that I'm intent on jailing Nacho each night, and scum killing him would be a huge risk, so 1 or 3 really.

[Davsto]

I'd love to speedlynch Nacho on the thought that it's wayyy less likely for scum to nokill for WIFOM than attempt a kill, but last time I played a game where we lynched someone because they were jailed and there was no kill, and we thought there was no way they'd be the kill target... they were, so, yeh...

[Davsto]

Right-o

I'm still tilting on a slight possibility of scum no-killing for WIFOM but honestly I was thinking Nacho was scum anyway so hey ho

VOTE: Nachomamma8

[Davsto]

I wasn't a kill target. Scum no killed. There was no reason for them not to no kill.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

[Davsto]

ooh

ooooooooh

VOTE: Ank

Sorry for being so rash, Nacho. To an extent I was just hoping for occam's razor to be right.

[Davsto]

Massive is conftown and I know for a fact that either Davsto or I are conftown as well because I watched Nacho last night.

bullshit.

I visited nacho, too.

VOTE: ank

you're no tracker

I take it that you're saying here that you only saw me visit?

[Davsto]

Oh ffs hiplop
UNVOTE:

[Davsto]

This is like the second time you have totally misunderstood something and pushed hard for it. Christ.

VOTE: Nacho

Let's pray for Occam's razor to be right.

[Davsto]

Agreed. By no killing, they take the chance of an easy mislynch, but with jailkeeper being as good as preventing kills as it is, it risks adding on an extra day to the game, if I succeed in blocking the kill tonight (a 1/3 chance if I'm the kill target). It just seems like a huge risk to take, with little reward (see all the doubt).

[Davsto]

@mod - V/LA until Sat - mock exams :c

[Davsto]

Why would he watch me?

[Davsto]

Watching me would be idiotic because I'm ascetic

how many times will I have to explain this I swear

[Davsto]

@mod - V/LA until Sat - mock exams :c

Still posting, but it tends to be rather sporadic, sorry.

[Davsto]

No lynching until we force scum to kill = autowin.

Or they could just never kill and we get stuck in a tedious cycle of not lynching which drains any investment anyone had in the game as well as any feeling of fun.

[Davsto]

It's not really throwing away a win, throwing away a win would be not lynching scum when we had the chance. Such as not lynching you. Farside, get out of your little Anka hole and hammer Nacho, please.

[Davsto]

If we nolynch, then either scum will keep nokilling, leaving us in a useless cycle, or scum will kill (probably me), leaving us with no idea who I confirmed town, and one town down, without having made any lynches. This seems like a terrible idea.

[Davsto]

But can't we do that while following through with normal lynches as well? Sounds like a much better plan.

PEdit: Stop trying to scare me, if the game doesn't end with your lynch then it's no better than constantly nolynching until I die and then you getting lynched at some point during that as would inevitably happen.

[Davsto]

Not forcing the kill while lynching has a surprising chance of landing us in a lylo of me/massive/scum if none of our other lynches hit scum which isn't even slightly difficult to figure out, just so you know.

[Davsto]

Don't worry, I'll be sure to take heed of your advice once you're dead.

Does anyone else note the convenience of him not thinking of this for the entire rest of the day, and then once he gets put at L-1 and actually has a large risk of being lynched (seriously, that's the exact timing), he suddenly comes up with this amaaaazing plan which doesn't require his lynch.

We can still do this whole force-scum-to-kill thing, sure, but why no lynch to do it? It seems backwards. The whole point of forcing scum to not make a kill or make a kill and clear someone is that if they choose A we get more lynches, and if they choose B we get clears. What's the point when the best we get out of option A is being stuck in the same position as before?

[Davsto]

I'm sorry for having an arbitrary amount of scepticism when someone I've been scumreading for a good portion of the game suddenly comes up with a plan.

Scum aren't forced to kill, you realise that? I guarantee that it is most likely to end up with a cycle of no lynch -> no kill -> repeat because scum gets absolutely no benefit from killing, whilst we get a benefit from lynching, so all it's gonna do is go around a few times until we get bored and lynch you anyway.

[Davsto]

But we don't have happily ever after rules, so the game will keep looping with scum not killing because they know that attempt a kill will turn out much worse than not killing, and since a single scum saying "nah don't kill" takes a lot less effort than making 4 townspeople agree to a no lynch, town is going to lynch before scum kills, basic logic.

I get what you're saying, but without happily-ever-after rules, the tactic is worthless, as scum have absolutely no incentive to perform a kill, since by making a kill they (a) clear a town (b) put themselves at risk of getting lynched since we'll stop no lynching. And due to there being one less player and one more confirmed town, there's a much bigger risk for scum being lynched after a kill than without a kill. In the end, all that would happen is that we would eventually just lynch someone, ending up in the exact same scenario as if we lynched someone today.

Ergo, the best option is to lynch someone today, as it avoids the moral-sapping loop which we could repeat many times in the vain hope that the last scum will do something, despite it objectively being worse for them than not doing something.

[Davsto]

I'm planning on targeting Anka tonight. If scum did try to kill Nacho last night - unlikely, but possible - he, in theory, has an incriminating result, and is worth keeping alive.

hiplop should probably track farside.

[Davsto]

Hey Davsto, pay attention. I watched Nacho last night too and already gave the results. If anyone tried to kill him, it was you or hiplop.

D'oh, I'm tired and at school

Best bet is still jailing one of farside/anka and having hiplop track the other. I'll jail Ank still, though.

Also, has Nacho been lynched yet? Or is he only at L-1? I believe someone unvoted at some point.

[Davsto]

Well it's either hiplop tracks:

me (no result)
massive (conftown why bother)
Ank (being blocked so you're not exactly gonna track them doing anything)
or farside

So, you know.

[Davsto]

Remember when you publicly targeted me forever and took away all chance of blocking scum? Please stop being stubborn and actioning inoptimally.

Look, with the mix of roles in the game after your lynch, we need to organise night actions to some extent. We need to maximise useful results, quite simply.

[Davsto]

Can someone hammer already? I feel like we've got all the possible conversation we can out of this day.

[Davsto]

Oh yay, vanity wagons.

[Davsto]

If you can sell me on farside, sure, go ahead, but I don't see myself moving from Nacho for basically any reason.

[Davsto]

Christ this game has died harder than that film.

[Davsto]

I confirmed you town.

Ew

Ewwwww

UNVOTE:

This just reads so badly, maybe I've been overly tunneling Nacho...

[Davsto]

VOTE: hiplop

You know how I said all the stuff for my role? Please do it for your role, because right now I'm not believing you in the slightest.

[Davsto]

n4 nacho didnt go anywhere

Question: Why did you bother tracking someone who I had already said I would be jailing even though you know that means you'll be told that they went nowhere?

[Davsto]

way of tracking you + nacho in one

How does this make any sense at all?

[Davsto]

Why would scum Nacho have hammered, when it's not LYLO?

Who would they have hammered, because the only player that has been at L-1 today is Nacho?

[Davsto]

Ahh fuck, the deadline's run out.

That's what happens when you're all indecisive and shit. We could have just lynched hiplop but noooo

I'm jailing hiplop tonight.

[Davsto]

Right

Hiplop is clear
I'm clear
Massive is clear

Lynch Plotinus today, if they're town then I block Nacho tonight and lynch him tomorrow, gg.

VOTE: Plotinus

[Davsto]

By the by, hiplop, that is why I changed my mind and decided to jail you only way to clear me since I can't be tracked and Ank's result takes a day to appear, and having the Jailkeeper cleared is generally pretty useful.

[Davsto]

It's okay Ank, your death was not in vain!

[Davsto]

Massive is clear because on Night 1 he was investigated by Hecatia. Her investigation comes up positive if the person she inspected has a kill that they have not used yet. Hecatia got a negative result on N1. Massive was also tracked by hiplop, who saw that Massive targeted no-one N1. With the Mafia Ninja dead, it means that Massive could not have performed the kill N1, so they have no kill, ergo they are town.

Hiplop is town because he was jailed (by me) last night and a kill happened.

I am town because hiplop knows that I jailed him last night as he got "No Result" on his track, and as

Mafia members may not perform the factional kill and an active ability on the same night.

it means I could have not performed the kill last night.

[Davsto]

By the way: all of that would also have been possible with a lynch. Except, with a lynch, they wouldn't have been safe killing Massive.

[Davsto]

Yeh, sorry about that. It's kinda a naff situation to be put in the game in a night where killing anyone but two players leaves enough conftown players that you will be lynched.

Anyway, woo! Good game. I feel like that was one of my better towngames, despite lacking early on.

[Davsto]

Well played everyone! Well done town! Sorry for my crappy play super earlier on but I hope I helped make it up later~

Scum played well during the day, but I feel their biggest weakness was the night actions. Not killing me/Hecatia N1 caused a lot of problems, and them not killing me early on (me being JK and all) was ultimately what led to their demise. Scum blackmailing me despite my Ascetic claim already being out there was also a bad move. While Ploti sadly failed due to the kill target on that last night, blaming them would be silly because they had only just replaced in, probably didn't know all the claims, and didn't realise that killing anyone other than me/massive would result in an instant loss.

Anyway, gg!

[Davsto]

Also thanks for modding Anti, it was an awesome game

[Davsto]

Yeh, you were sorta thrown into a really tricky minefield of role interactions where a single bad move could screw everything up, but that's not your fault, thanks for replacing in

[Davsto]

Yeh, setup wasn't as scumsided as you're making it out to be.

Main investigative could only get 1 definite innocent result and it requires both them and the Jailkeeper to have claimed and it either be D1 or the Jailkeeper had jailed the same person all nights so far. It would also be rendered null at finding any scum in 3 days, and the Neighbouriser-Killer basically acted as a false positive which, due to the way the role worked, would remain a false positive.

Then, the Trackers and Watchers. Firstly, you had two Ninjas (normal and backup), so you really didn't need to worry about much at all as long as they were kept alive. Secondly, while the Tracker was just normal, the two Watchers (which I'd argue are always more likely to catch a NK being made) were largely nerfed. Massive was stuck watching a single target until they died, and Ankamius was delayed. These are obviously problems on their own, but they're worse post-massclaim; all scum need to do to counter the former is not to kill the target or do so with a ninja, and the latter can be ignored and then killed if they targeted someone and you know that would give them an incriminating result the next night.

[Davsto]

Probably because the ninja was Vedith, who was widely scumread, and there was a known Jailkeeper in play.

Still don't get why they didn't kill me though. That was just slight scum stupidity which, simply, contributed hugely towards their loss.