Shaman Mafia [Endgame]

[copper223]

VOTE: AngryPidgeon

Volunteer: South-Fire

[copper223]

@Steag
What's your read on them appearing to have different opinions in the hydra, i.e. what is the purpose of that line of questioning?

@Bella
Was the vote on AP RVS?

[copper223]

Hydra dissonance is often a town tell, scum hydras tend to discuss a line of play and agree before one of them ends up posting potentially harmful content, unless of course they are aware of the tell and playing around it, which at the moment I find less likely just as a matter of %.

The fact it is being done so openly in the thread is what I was interested in and I would have liked for it to continue to see if it was genuine but your line of questioning killed it and you don't appear to have thought much in terms of alignment about it.

[copper223]

Regarding Yakko, I replaced him in a newbie and his meta was much more aggressive, so he could well be scum here.

I am more interested in AP, my reaction to players volunteering to cover a certain slot in the ritual was that it made it more likely for them to be town, the fact he came up with the opposite read and hinted he would vote for players giving that info. (i.e. endorsing being less transparent) pings me.

[copper223]

Copper, do you have a read on Staeg and/or the hydra?

Calling them reads is a bit much but I'm leaning more town on the hydra and more scum on Staeg.

Do you have a read on AP?

[copper223]

Are you talking to Staeg here?

Yes.

[copper223]

@AP
That doesn't make much sense. If you think my stance was pretty divey (I noticed your unique spin on what I wrote, which bears only a passing resemblance to reality), why are you also avoiding the issue with the whole QL fear spiel?

[copper223]

@AP
Yes, but what are you saying beyond the quote you keep misquoting?

[copper223]

The way he made it such an elaborate thought makes me think he wants to look like he's thinking critically and contributing when in actuality no real conclusions are drawn and it could have been said in less words.

I'd say the failure is more in the reader than the writer if you genuinely think there are no conclusions to draw from that statement. What is your read of AP?

[copper223]

How the fuck am I misquoting anything. You did exactly what I am saying you did. Your case on me is pretty irrelevant to what I think about you. You acknowledge the Yakko pressure, made a throwaway non-commital scumread on him, and then 180'd to focus on me. All of it comes off very self-conscious. I didn't misquote anything, just stated what in your post I didn't like.

I said: he could well be scum based on what I know of him, not he is scum but let's focus on you and that's the misquote. I also was voting for you

before

any question about Yakko, so that 180 does not exist.

[copper223]

Furthermore, from what I understand of your case on me, you MISUNDERSTOOD my opinions on P1 and are using it as a case. I pointed this out and you seem to not care at all.

Ok that's fair, you meant voting them in as in confirming them?

[copper223]

@AP
Ok, I am waiting for some players to catch-up.

[copper223]

@Nacho

Why did you think Staeg pointing out hydra dissonance in thread would be likely to affect that hydra's behavior?

Because once you are made aware that something in what you are writing is under scrutiny you will behave artificially and falsify the tell, most recently I just finished a newbie where I said a new player was acting too scummy to be scum and as a response, thinking it was a way to get townread (he was town unfortunately), he proceeded to be more and more outrageous until, after I got nk'ed, he got lynched. I disagree that scum is going to correct that behavior, they may go over the top as the town in question did or as you say change tactics or ignore the comment but that is different read which you gave on top of mine, what I was looking for was ruined by Staeg's approach.

This expectation confuses me. Why is volunteering to take part in a ritual town? Why is AP having a different feeling scummy?

Because you are offering information that may be verifiable or counterclaimed at the start of the game, in most games I have played most scum players like to stay on the fence and wait for town to pick a side and then blend in, that's why I think it's more likely to be a town move. My read on AP was based on a misunderstanding of what he said (which you seem to share, so if you are questioning him about it, why then doubt me for doing the same?), if he had a problem with early volunteering then that would be more likely to be scum resisting clarity in the thread based on the same logic as above.

VOTE: Bella
The last time you were scum you copied my reads and was friendly in your approach like your Esp. posts so I wanted to see what you would say about AP before I switched (I now think he is more likely to be town after understanding what he meant...), but by now it's pretty obvious if you are reading along so it makes little sense to wait, but you are not allowed to coast .

I would also vote Yakko but I'm not a fan of lynching early, so that should answer the Ushiro vs Yakko question.

[copper223]

The tell about volunteering info doesn't apply to nacho btw, as scum I think he would be more likely to make an effort to get towncred early in a situation like this.

[copper223]

Why would you not vote a scumread?

What is wrong with powerlynching scu,m?

Since I've come back D1 lynches have happened far to fast and usually to town's regrets so I am wary of joining the first big wagon, mostly uncontested, of the day, the last time something similar happened I came back to see a lynch that flipped town with little else to go on for the next day.

[copper223]

@Staeg
It refers to the first game Bellaphant played onsite with me, at the moment I don't know if she is absent or coasting, what I said is she will not be allowed to do so.

[copper223]

Better in what sense? Better for information gathering? Yes. Better for lynching scum? No.

[copper223]

Very snarky of you but once again, like with the question I asked you about Ushiro, not a read.

[copper223]

@Staeg
It is likely to net me more than if nobody questioned her and we just ended the day early on the first suspect most of the active posters seem to have, do you agree? Since she asked me to play a game with her I also find it strange and a bit suspicious that we haven't engaged in any kind of banter and she has been absent.

Now let's pause for a moment on what I am doing (correctly or not) and concentrate on you, who are you scum reading and why?

@Egg
2-3 days before the deadline is what I'd consider optimal.

[copper223]

@Staeg
You are making that claim for me, what I said is it was a better vote than Yakko's as far as information

gathering

goes, not that by voting I would immediately get information as you seem to now suggest to justify this newfound scum-read.

To recap your scum-reads are 1 read from pages back, 1 unexplored and weak read on spiffeh and this new read based on a misrep of what I said, are you sure you are making an effort to figure this game out? (rhetorical question)

I think Brian has a point about the false dichotomy between Ushiro and Yakko.

@Yakko
Same question I asked Staeg, who are you scum-reading and why?

[copper223]

Copper, to be fair I don't see the difference between information gathering and getting information.

The difference is in the time-frame, I said it would help me read Bella better, once she replies, Staeg implied I said it would give me information the second I voted, and since that is not true (by definition basically) he now has a scum-read on me, which is why I called it a misrep.

[copper223]

Has anyone played with spiffeh before? It seems to me he wants us to believe he is just blurting out what he is thinking while catching-up (more than one example where one post partially contradicts the previous), in a spontaneous way, but that reads artificial to me when you have to pausa to write down what you are thinking.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
If that's something you do often (I'll check but it seems likely based on the reply) so be it, Brian knows I hate his catch-up style as well (because it's easy to reverse-engineer as scum) but contrary to many fellow players I realize the rest of you have no duty to play like I would.

[copper223]

Why does it feel like you really want a consensus to scum read me so when you inevitably swap your vote to me you can go along with the crowd?

You've been casting a lot of veiled shade on me without really attacking me outright and it concerns me!

That's what you have been doing with me more like and why I have been wondering about you, where did I cast a veiled shade on you? I honestly have no clue how to read you at the moment.

[copper223]

What in the Great Spirit's name is this?
What I outright said - not implied - is that your vote is doing jack shit right now. I don't care what massive yields it will get in a day or two - I asked you if there was nothing more productive you could be doing instead of going "MORE PYLONS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED just waiting for my information gathering to come in don't mind me".

Implying that if I don't vote someone (also active at the same time clearly) in every post that I make I can't be productive, I'd say the latest 2 pages (of interactions between me and x) show how BS your argument is, plus points for the Protoss reference though. How do you feel about the town-read AP gave you?

[copper223]

I am using that resource in a way that either doesn't meet your approval (if you are town) or that you are using as an excuse to add a name to your limited scum pool (if you are scum), I don't think there is much point in further discussing it though.

[copper223]

This argument makes no sense in current context: UshiromayaAnge said, at the beginning of the game, that they were trying to limit the amount of hydra dissonance. This means that they are aware of hydra dissonance as a tell.

You are both making a logical leap (talking about dissonance implies knowing and worrying about it as a tell) and highlighting something that doesn't change the read I gave: "when

others

point something out, it makes your replies artificial and falsifies my tell". Whether Ushiro knew of it may well falsify it in a different way (that was precisely what I was checking), but is not relevant for the above.

Volunteering for a role is not verifiable or counterclaimable.
My question to AP was because I didn't understand his line of thought; your question to AP was because you thought it was scummy.
Your "resisting clarity in the thread" logic doesn't exactly resonate with me.

Like for other fellow players making these statements, you saying something doesn't mean it's true, unless in this case you are claiming knowledge of the setup that I do not possess for you to say that flavor is not verifiable in this game.

You explanation about the distinction between your AP line and my AP line really doesn't resonate with me either.

[copper223]

Meanwhile, how did you guys come up with that pair?

[copper223]

If this were a newbie I'd call Yakko a false positive.

@Brian

I'd like him to show me what he means. I'd like to think my posting isn't that bad (although others have said as such in the past). ):

I assumed Ushiro was talking about Yakko and not you in the second quote.

@Egg/Kam/Hitogashi
What do you think of Ushiro's theory that Yakko is being bussed?

[copper223]

Also Espeonage and Bellaphant need to start posting in this game or I will not oppose policy lynching them.

The latest pages are unreadable. This is the only thing of value I found.

@AP
Do you really need a case for why Yakko could be scum here? His posting is awkward as fuck, he started being conciliatory with Hito. and ignoring the ritual which was weird, then he apparently stated he was out of RVS without having reads, then he flail voted various people for no reason I can understand (Nacho saying there that he has to be both dumb and brilliant to vote Hitogashi boggles my mind), and now he voted me on the off-chance he might live if a counter-wagon forms. Is it possible for him to be town despite this? Sure, I've seen worse, but fuck me if I'm going to say anything of what he did was town indicative in the slightest.

Now back to Staeg, why do you town-read the guy? I am scum-reading him because in the few interactions I've had with him he has shown no indication that his plan is to figure out the alignment of the rest of us, his vote on me is a case in point of his behavior.

[copper223]

I just think you are a bunch of kids more interested in proving that you have the biggest dick, the fact you need to do so shows you are fragile human beings like the rest of us. If you want a therapy session I'll be happy to talk with you, since my purpose here is to play mafia those pages are a waste of thread-space.

[copper223]

Because Bella lurking after asking me to play the game is also potentially scummy, because up to now Yakko was getting pressured well enough without my vote and because I am not a fan of early D1 lynches, is there a reason why you are asking me to repeat myself?

[copper223]

I don't play as if I know I'm going to lynch scum, I make educated guesses and narrow down the possibilities until I get it right.

[copper223]

It certainly helps, it's not the only way to do so.

[copper223]

did you know you're voting bellaphant

What is the point of this when I answered Brian in the thread already? If Nacho is not scum and somehow right about Yakko, then my money is on you.

[copper223]

Because Bella lurking

This change of stance is no coincidence by the way, it's now a fact that she is selectively avoiding this game.

[copper223]

@Hito
If we're talking known setup with a vig. I'm with you, although site meta in my games when I was not vig. has been to shoot scum-reads rather than lurkers, other night powers are much better used on active players, if you're an investigative and you confirm a weak town V.I. you have basically wasted a check, now that guy gets to sit around and maybe decide the game for you at lylo.

With an unknown setup, force replacements and long days the choice you present is a false dichotomy, we can just get the silent players to post.

[copper223]

@Hito
Why did you say something interesting would happen once Yakko was at L-1 and did it happen?

[copper223]

Ok.

VOTE: Yakko

[copper223]

How does him being out of a newbie impact this judgement?

His posting looks the same as some town newbies when they panic because they think they screwed up somewhere and either decide it's best to get lynched and out of the game to "help" town not knowing it's a bad idea or just want to get it over with, since Yakko is not a newbie I think it's more likely that he is posting like this deliberately.

Did hito's argument convince you so much that you're willing to go against your beliefs of not lynching this early?

I think Yakko's wagon is a town wagon, more so now that I've had that back and forth with Hito. and he does make some valid points including useful speculation I didn't have about the setup which I doubt are not genuine regardless of his alignment, I also don't like anyone defending Yakko and the more time goes by the less useful my vote on Bella becomes (I'm not happy with her at the moment...).

[copper223]

If I knew Yakko got a scum PM, I'd be fine lynching him 30 seconds into the day, since I don't, lynching early without huge conviction is a gamble I don't like to take. In particular all the early pressure coming to bear on him without much of an argument against his lynch made me wonder if scum was behind the push as well, if Yakko is town this is a fine wagon for scum to join, but if they are I don't see it and I would need a flip to re-evaluate anyway.

The alternative play would be to go ham on Bella and try to build her lynch up, which also carries it's risks. I know that Bella prefers scum, so while I can see lurking a bit as a possible strat. if she doesn't want to interact with players (maybe she has a history with Spiffeh?) her continuing to avoid the thread could also mean she got a town PM and decided to focus elsewhere because of time issues or whatnot, if I manage to get some people on board and it turns out this is the case I would have much rather had a Yakko flip.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
There is a high correlation between the posts you say you don't like and your name being in said posts, really want to fly under the radar?

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
I just told you how to read Bella and that's fluff? The first part may be fluff for you but is important if Staeg is town.

[copper223]

Like a town answer would be: "Yeah I don't like to lynch early"

That's a Spiffeh answer more than a town answer, if someone asks me to explain a particular point, they will get a detailed summary of my thoughts on the subject and will have to put up with me being overly verbose (if that's even the case).

[copper223]

@Staeg
First off you can't refute a question. Second I stated that early lynches are risky, because if they happen to hit on town they are particularly bad, not that they are bad in absolute terms (as you again oversimplify or misrep like you did with me wanting information by voting on Bella which became me having to show immediately what information that vote gave) so the contradiction you are "asking" doesn't exist, what does is my analysis of the risks involved and why I decided to go ahead and vote when I did.

[copper223]

Also the mentality of having to "refute" what the rest of the players say or ask, which you seem to have, I find pretty scummy.

[copper223]

Because as scum you just want to appear to be trying to figure out the game while really you want nobody to pay attention to you while you kill everyone else off, so if you are in that mindset your focus is on winning arguments and refuting probes made by others, as town you are ideally seeking to collaborate with the rest of the players to ferret out those that are not being honest with their opinions, which should put you in a different mindset wrt listening to what they have to say.

[copper223]

Credit for WKing lynches is not really something that Nacho would reasonably expect from this situation I think.

I disagree, I think I have a game where Nacho himself said something along the lines of scum-Nacho wking townies for the lol's is something he does just as often as town-Nacho.

[copper223]

I don't know why he has Nacho over Yakko and I want to know if those reads are by associations and if so in what way, but I like them both and his early day posting.

[copper223]

That read-list from Egg though is worrisome, based on how he decided to mediate between Staeg and I, giving his own interpretation of what Staeg was pointing out, which I don't believe is what he was after, and making it look reasonable from Staeg's pov., I would have then expected for Egg to have Staeg as more of a null-read like the one he gave me, instead he puts him right above Yakko as the second scummiest.

[copper223]

Brian reads mostly town to me here. I'm ok with a Bella lynch if we don't have the numbers on Yakko.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh

@ Copper, you asked about Spiffeh - this is very typical of him, but the last two times hw was lynched as town in games I played with him, he was less active than this in general.

So what exactly is the purpose of this other than to subtly cast suspicion on me?

I mean if you said this and added "therefore I think he's scum" then I would be fine with it but the way you don't even attach your own opinion to it makes it look like you're throwing this out there to test the waters and see how everyone reacts before you commit one way or another.

Which is scummy.

Also the fact that you have been reading thoroughly enough to catch copper's question but this is all you have to say.

You changed your mind about Bella based on her

not

posting?

[copper223]

I feel like we would only be able to get a majority on the town one, if you see what I mean.

I see why a town lurker would get wagon-ed faster in most cases, but not why a scum lurker could not be lynched?

@AP
It would help if you told us why you think Staeg is town instead of stating it every so often, at least Nacho did provide the "Staeg is a rabbit when scumhunted by aggressive and experienced players, so his sarcastic reaction to Ushiro is townie" when he called him town (speaking of fallacies you, Nacho, were accusing Egg of making...).

[copper223]

VOTE: Toog

I have a really hard time believing Toog's reads are genuine, the coincidences are a bit much for someone who claims to have based them on the first 10 pages of the game.

His town-reads include the player who says (multiple times and with different arguments, one of which still unexplained) that he doesn't want to lynch lurkers (Hito) and the player who said Bella not posting makes her more likely to be town cause she lurked out of games they played together before as that alignment (Spiffeh), his scum-reads are the most popular wagon at the moment (espe-slot) and the player that has put the most pressure on his slot (me), everyone else other than cam is a null-read.

If I were to sit down and design the optimal reads for scum-Toog, that's what I'd come up with other than the cam gut-read, do you play each other often btw.?

I was waiting for the rest of the catch-up to see if those reads progressed in any way that might indicate genuine scum-hunting but the fact he has also stopped after he said he read the first 10 pages fits with my theory that early thread content is not why he came up with them.

[copper223]

why not?

[copper223]

@Spiffeh

volunteer - east air

If anyone is wondering if they should be in the ritual, they probably shouldn't. Check your Role PM. It should be incredibly obvious.

I don't have any of those Ritual Roles mentioned in the PM I received.

[copper223]

@Brian
To be clear, I also don't have: you are a fire shaman from the south in my role PM, but given the role description in the ritual it's easy to see for which position I needed to volunteer.

@Toog
The speculation started right with AP's second post saying he did not get any of those roles, so I don't believe Bella was unaware or didn't even consider that it was role related.

[copper223]

Anyone townreading this slot is clearly mad.

Anyone not doing so is more likely to be.

[copper223]

Hey TTH, nice playing with you again. What is your copper read this game?

[copper223]

@Toog
Bella lurking in this game after asking me to play I find scummy, it may however also be what Spiffeh mentioned, that she had little time and couldn't be assed to play a town game, the alignment she likes less, and if that is the case then her lynch would have been pretty bad, I started by trying to make her post with the vote and when I saw it was a waste of time had to decide what was best in that scenario and went for Yakko.

I did not want to

hammer

the first popular wagon early on during the day because it might have been scum driven.

Why did you think that was based on policy?

[copper223]

What is really dumb is to only look at the cases where it worked out and ignore when it doesn't work, but that seems typical of the way you guys play.

[copper223]

Nacho is town, by the way.

This I also don't understand, he is looking scummier by the moment.

[copper223]

On top of that, to say all this WHEN THERE ARE NO FLIPS??? What do you want, for us to just twiddle our thumbs here?

I want to use the time I was given to find scum and use it to the fullest, that includes trying to get information from the slots that are lurking, the fact you consider it thumb twiddling is more a problem on how you choose to play.

The caution you keep trying to throw to the wind does not come from the mind of a townie.

This doesn't even make sense... you are the guys wanting to "throw caution to the wind" as it were.

I don't think I can have a profitable discussion with this head of the hydra and I also think your slot is town, so if you want to ask me alignment relevant questions I'll answer you like I do for everyone else, if you want to comment on my playing ability I'll just ignore you.

[copper223]

Stating intent, will give everyone and more specifically Yakko 2 days to post before hammering, if nothing has changed.

[copper223]

@Cam
That was a real question? Whether your stances have been transparent or not has nothing to do with whether your play has been cautious or impetuous, you have been advocating an early Yakko lynch from the start of the day, you can therefore be characterized, assuming that's a genuine read and you are town, as "having thrown caution to the wind" in favor of your conviction that Yakko is scum, I on the other hand have not behaved in a similar manner hence that does not apply to me.

[copper223]

@TTH
Here we go again... why do you think I'm scum this time?

Since you were part of our pre-game discussion, please confirm to Toog that Bella, you and I were trying to have a reunion game and chose Shaman mafia.

@Toog

[copper223]

@Toog
You can also see that Bella and I joined the newbie queue a while before this game, at the same time, and requested to play in the same game, Mina did not see the request during the Christmas rush so we tried again. You didn't try very hard to find that info. before saying I might be lying did you?

[copper223]

@TTH
So now pressuring lurkers is a throw-away vote? She started like in the newbie we played together by copying my vote and being overly friendly, then when asked about it never posted again anything of note... just that alone is suspect.

[copper223]

If that information is likely to be there, yes, are you trolling me?

[copper223]

@Toog
Since you started it by calling me an idiot, I think you are an (insert a few choice words) for trying to use that to your advantage.

[copper223]

@Toog
The other side of the if statement is not true by default as you can't treat every game as a "self enclosed entity", at the very least you will remember something about playing with someone and what you think are their tendencies and that will influence the way you read the game the next time you play with them, not only that but every previous game will have created biases in the way you play depending on what worked for you and what did not. Discounting meta as useless, if that's what you are getting at, is something I have encountered before on the forum so I'll check to see if that's the case with you as well, as for your last argument, you had already caught up to the thread a while back so again not a very good point.

Let me illustrate the scum motive for you, discredit the push by questioning it's basis, especially when it's something that can be called in doubt, when you are found out, because unfortunately this time you stumbled on something that is verifiable, react indignant and ad hominem the attacker while making up some BS.

[copper223]

Uhhh. Very few people are going to do that work just to prove themselves wrong. I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd ask you to prove it yourself. Basically, I back Toog on this.

Easy. After Spiffeh told me that Bella lurked out of games with him as town I checked all 4 of them, the most interesting one was where he played as a cultist, the first I saw was when Bella instaclaimed town mayor and that did not look promising cause in that position she can afford to lurk as much as she wants, the one where he played as a cultist however has some similarities with this game, she did say she was going V/LA and never bothered to really come back (she was also site absent, not selectively choosing which games to play), so while I found it inconclusive as far as Bella's alignment goes, especially considering the other arguments I have for considering her potentially scummy, it did tell me something about Spiffeh.

It's funny that you speak of proving yourself wrong, if you make these allegations without bothering to check you don't have proof to begin with, you are talking out of your ass and if you are really bad at this game the few times you happen to be right are the times you will remember how brilliant you were for those "proofs".

[copper223]

@Toog
That's a lot more reasonable, you can however say similar things about in-game scum-tells and that's why I have never heard of a 100% foolproof tell nor do I expect to.

[copper223]

@Egg
Toog. was making a specific point claiming to have checked Bella's posts before making it, that's different from me expecting him to know everything about every game that was played on-site, but sure it could be play-style as well if his point about ignoring out-of-game info. pans out.

Your initial position however was also that I was BSing about how I play to call him scummy, why did you think so? Furthermore I never said that you have to play like I do or that I expect you to or even that I will scum-read you if you don't (contrary to some of you fellows).

[copper223]

@Egg
This is starting to feel like some weird pocket not quite town read you have going.

[copper223]

@Brian & TTH
I also don't find UA leaving Yakko's wagon scummy, I think UA's switch there has more to do with Nacho's read of Yakko and how UA views Nacho rather than anything about what you, Brian, did.

[copper223]

@Brian
The question about Yakko is: lynchbait town or obv. scum, UA started with a strong push presumably thinking the latter but at some point decided the former was more likely, I don't see what you could have possibly done to influence that thought process (assuming as I do that it was genuine), on the other hand they already consider you as possibly scum in 192, so if not Yakko then you are a good candidate, maybe especially because of your posts on that page, is more of the thought process I see there.

[copper223]

@Brian
Precisely in the post you quoted they say they don't understand Yakko, that is different from their previous posting about Yakko being basically confirmed scum, so a switch in their reads has happened and I don't believe it has anything to do with their read of you. Why did it happen? TTH seems to be saying it's scum indicative and it shows it was not a real read to begin with, I think it's because they wanted to interact more with Nacho to understand his read of Yakko, in the mean time they decided to focus on you, who also looked scummy to them.

[copper223]

The issue Brian is that you seem to be showing signs of knowing Yakko's alignment in that post, it is also the opposite alignment to the one you may have been implicitly thinking of if your vote is what you believe, and I missed that.

[copper223]

Without going into specifics, does someone think Yakko's hawk flavour claim is in any way believable, cause it certainly doesn't resonate with me.

[copper223]

VOTE: Yakko

[copper223]

Final scum-reads of the day
Yakko
Nachomamma8
Staeg

[copper223]

First because I said I would 2 days ago, second because I'm not buying anything you have said about your Yakko read, the latest posts you have made have been a case in point on how to undermine a wagon while trying not to commit to a read, likely knowing what would happen post flop.

[copper223]

A load of crap most likely. First you postured about changing your mind about it, then you switched back to him being town and victimized, including that pearl about the only proper response from scum in this situation being a buss. If Yakko flips town then I'll revisit my position.

[copper223]

@Nacho
That line of thinking is not based on scum_Nacho being afraid to commit to a read, that's based on you defending a scum-buddy even when it seems indefensible and I can certainly see you going for that line, especially while insinuating that is totally not something scum would ever dream of doing.

[copper223]

I said that I was uneasy about him because he hadn't really done anything as of late. Was that an unreasonable position? Why?

Yakko's behavior has not change but your read of him has mysteriously gone back and forth, and when someone tells me what scum is bound to do in a given situation I immediately look to see if they are doing the opposite of what was said.

[copper223]

@Nacho
There is no such thing as: "I would always buss Yakko as scum" for a decent player, you have the ability to read the trends in the thread so you know as well as I do that most of the moves scum make are situational.

If I lynch you out of this game as scum again I don't think you have much room to criticize how I play, the discussion at the moment is not very useful as it is all predicated on Yakko flipping scum

@TTH
Assuming you are town, when you learn to read me I'll pay more attention to what you think about other players.

[copper223]

This seems... immature?
At best?
Why does TTH having difficulty reading you mean that she's suddenly incompetent at reading players in general?

Because she is a "big picture" reader and the times she has been off about me she has also got most of her other reads wrong.

[copper223]

Let's not make a list of players we think are town before twilight, I am a big fan of readlists but since I already noticed early on that it would not help in this particular game I did not push for them, those reads are the main reasons some players insist that they are anti-town to begin with.

[copper223]

VOTE: Staeg

volunteer: All That I Do-Fire

It may be a good idea to rotate the members on the ritual if we think that matching flavor is irrelevant.

[copper223]

I'm against letting Copper in the ritual again.

Based on?

[copper223]

Nacho flipped as a Daoist, that could be seen as east-water (Chinese shamanism that seeks harmony with all things and has a principle roughly translated as water), with Camnkat on the other hand I don't see any connection with drummers unless it was in their ability.

@Brian
You did not think so yesterday, why the switch?

[copper223]

@Egg

he actually has this amazing role where he gets to defile night actions through the dream realm (something something shamans are gullible fools)

Starting from this post.

[copper223]

@Brian
So you are telling me there were only wagons on scum yesterday? How did you come up with TTH and I distancing ourselves from each other?

I don't think there is much harm in this so,

I'm a Yachak

, a shaman whose tribe is from south america and our main element is fire, that's why I think that position is for me.

Why is the case that scum can block rituals with active abilities something you are not even considering?

@All
I think both UA and AP are town, more sure about UA.

@TTH
What happened yesterday night when you followed Brian?

Back to playing league.

[copper223]

Is your name Brian? Definitely not and I'd like to hear why someone would think so because the best explanation I have is that you want popular scum-reads.

[copper223]

What's your read on TTH? Why do you think Stag is scum? It worries me that even though Nacho, one of your final scumreads of yesterday, flipped town, there doesn't seem to be any sort of reevaluation of your reads here, and it worries me that you may just be going for an easy lynch.

I had somewhat of a town read on Espe. before he dropped off, mainly because I had the same instinct about the ritual and because we had similar scum-reads (Nacho, Yakko), I remember playing with him back when and he said he preferred scum so like Bella's slot he has that going for him.

TTH has given me nothing other than call me scum (which she does every game we have ever played together after the first where I actually was scum, minus once where she was playing with anti as heartless as scum and called me town), I am waiting for her to post something meaningful and then I'll give you a better read, I do think her being Yakko's cw and Staeg being on her wagon plus the level of pressure on her that looks like an easy lynch/vote park are all pointers that she is town.

I think Staeg's scum because he was the first to try and discredit UA's push on Yakko and he didn't do it by calling Yakko town, he said he was bad and hence... town, I don't follow the leap between him being bad and him being town, it is however a way to deflect from his lynch without having to justify your read.

Yakko flipped scum, Nacho hard defended Yakko and had a crap read on me, what do you want me to consider and re-evaluate? I still think looking at those not on Yakko's wagon is the best way to go and of those Staeg stands out.

[copper223]

@Brian
Have you read Espe.'s posts on Nacho or are you repeating points from Staeg like an echo chamber?

Espe. starts by saying Nacho can be read by some based on the tone of his posts, he is not that good at it personally but posting in Shaman may be a way for Nacho to avoid detection from others. Espe then interacts with Spiffeh and questions him for the timing of his Nacho read, which he says he sees as possible distancing, and finally he accuses Nacho of either wking Yakko or deflecting for a buddy. His read on Yakko, which he never explicitly gives but can be inferred from his Nacho read is that he started to play terrible and seems like caught scum, why do you think the two reads are connected and why should town_Espe prefer Yakko over Nacho so him doing the opposite is scummy?

That makes no sense to me, Espe's posting is mostly about Nacho from the start so obviously that's going to be his main scum-read.

[copper223]

@AP
This nonsense about not wanting to lynch Nacho over some scrub (from your pov.) is a fallacy and if you believe it then it's scum indicative for you to want to lynch Nacho d1, show me that town_Espe also believes it and then I'll see your point.

[copper223]

@Brian
You are shifting the argument, the point you made was that Espe having Nacho over Yakko is scummy and I am still waiting for the reason why.

[copper223]

He's ignoring Yakko,

the main reason he thinks Nacho could be scum

No, and nothing in his posting leads to that conclusion.

This is town_Espe's logic as I see it:

Nacho may be scum hiding behind a creative posting style -> Spiffeh may be scum with Nacho for distancing himself from Nacho -> Nacho wking Yakko, whom is giving every indication of being scum, is scummy. Why is he doing it? Either he knows something about Yakko that we don't (that he is town despite his play) or they are buddies, in any case town_Nacho wouldn't do that so he is my top scumread. Yakko is also a scumeread of mine.

[copper223]

Not in this post, or any post: reasons he believes Yakko isn't scum.

Why would there be when he also has Yakko as a scumread?

[copper223]

@Toog
In the upper world where I went we received a message from Fate using the tag: the immortal daoist, telling us that Nacho hadn't yet realized he was dead so we couldn't speak to him yet, instead we got an ancestor of his. It's possible that we get more than one shot at talking with the dead, still I believe that 1032 is genuine and I don't see why scum_Toog would write it so I also think TTH needs a closer look after it.

[copper223]

There was no list of participants in the upper world so you could listen without posting if you wanted to.

[copper223]

How do you figure that? Staeg's D1 position didn't allow him to vote Yakko and if he is expecting to be next after Yakko flips for defending him he wants to create distance from his partners.

[copper223]

At the time he defended him, Yakko was not the most popular wagon.

[copper223]

Yes, that's my point. Whether TTH is his buddy or not depends on whether scum_Staeg had any confidence in creating a CW on a townie or was just doing damage control expecting a Yakko flip.

[copper223]

That would be a start, the same goes for you TTH.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
Declaring you are coasting is still coasting and I don't like it, neither Brian nor I have posted particularly long posts so that excuse is BS.

@Brian
Your interpretation of TTH's activity is not based on facts, she is not selectively avoiding this thread, she hasn't been active forum-wide.

@AP
Brian has already posted his thoughts about me at the start of the day, what do you think of them?

@Hito
Like Thor says in these situations, either come join a wagon that has a chance of success or like UA start screaming about why we should lynch AP over Staeg or TTH (both of whom look like better scum candidates to me, although I'll admit UA is making some good points, particularly about vote flailing).

[copper223]

I think that sounds tunnell-y but not particularly scummy unless Brian flips scum, especially cause I agree with you on Staeg.

[copper223]

@TTH
Why is Toog. scummier than Staeg?

[copper223]

I think the fact he is refusing to give a read on the rest of the game and you in particular fits with his personality, but it's still possible he doesn't want to take a stance on a buddy.

[copper223]

@AP
What happened there was excitement that I likely had a good case on scum and not wanting to be distracted by possible LHFs while I started to drum up support, all of that emotional investment flew out of the window once I realized I had misunderstood your "voting-in" post, so the question is if I unconsciously overcompensated because we keep on having different reads but I keep thinking you're town.

[copper223]

TTH is

hiding from the thread

hoping everything will just go away.

That's fine, although I never said she was selectively avoiding anything.

[copper223]

@Brian
Unless you are fabricating reads or conf-biasing, the only reason to say that is if you have proof that she is specifically avoiding this thread but active elsewhere.

[copper223]

I am also leaning more town on TTH after those posts, I still don't follow her on a lot of what she is saying but the reads she is dropping seem to be truthful.

[copper223]

Lol, good luck with the pie on the face as usual, this time try not to get in an argument with somebody to the point that you cross vote and I can't win the game regardless, eh?

[copper223]

I'm not even considering the possibility that I am wrong about TTH?

[copper223]

Ok, let me get the quotes, then I want you lynched.

[copper223]

TTH has given me nothing other than call me scum (which she does every game we have ever played together after the first where I actually was scum, minus once where she was playing with anti as heartless as scum and called me town), I am waiting for her to post something meaningful and then I'll give you a better read, I do think her being Yakko's cw and Staeg being on her wagon plus the level of pressure on her that looks like an easy lynch/vote park are all pointers that she is town.

First read of the day.

It's possible that we get more than one shot at talking with the dead, still I believe that 1032 is genuine and I don't see why scum_Toog would write it so I also think TTH needs a closer look after it.

After Toog posts about Nacho.

How do you figure that? Staeg's D1 position didn't allow him to vote Yakko and if he is expecting to be next after Yakko flips for defending him he wants to create distance from his partners.

Yes, that's my point. Whether TTH is his buddy or not depends on whether scum_Staeg had any confidence in creating a CW on a townie or was just doing damage control expecting a Yakko flip.

Pondering a Staeg TTH team.

@TTH
Why is Toog. scummier than Staeg?

Trying to get a read

I am also leaning more town on TTH after those posts, I still don't follow her on a lot of what she is saying but the reads she is dropping seem to be truthful.

After TTH's latest posts.

So what Brian just said basically a scumclaim.

VOTE: Brian

[copper223]

I also want him off the ritual.

[copper223]

Nope. You've been defending her and calling her town all day.

[copper223]

Probably, cause it doesn't have you in the same team. I did not defend her, your accusations were terrible in the first place, could have been a case of a bad town being right, but what you just tried to pull with me more or less seals the deal, I don't think you're that dumb.

[copper223]

Thanks, who's the last one, Staeg?

[copper223]

Stop spamming, I want people to read what you have said.

[copper223]

What the heck... Brian has been pushing scum-reads based on invented accusations all day, how is that town?

Staeg: Justify your vote without quoting/hyperlinking to any specific posts.

The push on UA was questionable and I didn't really see how her position there changed when she acquired information from others. No development.

Where's the development in your reads?

[copper223]

confirm Spiffeh

[copper223]

I think that's smoke and mirrors, as scum here faking an irrational tunnel is one of the few ways he can cover up how he tried to push his "reads".

[copper223]

VOTE: Staeg

If we do have a (day)vig as Hito suggested please consider using your power on Staeg or TTH today, both have shown little indication they are going to contribute much to the game and knowing their alignment would help a lot.

@All
Read again Brian's posts in our back and forth, they don't make sense as town.

[copper223]

I visited the lower world yesterday and I was the only one there, no Brian and no Bird.

[copper223]

Pretty sure that was fate speaking for nacho, there is a connection there as they both were daoists, Spiffeh what else happened in the middle world?

[copper223]

Katsuki: What the hell is going on? Upper World last night: Spiffeh, Staeg, Copper, Egg. Fate posted a votecount after Spiffeh voted for us and we ended up dead

This did not happen in the upper world yesterday or at least I did not see it...

[copper223]

Volunteer south-fire

[copper223]

Confirm Brian

This is bad already, assuming you want the ritual to succeed.

Brian and Ushiro both have claimed there is a "journey blocker", is that you AP?

[copper223]

Copper, I'm going with "scum did it" until someone tells me otherwise. That makes Brian town for now.

Remember this in case of a Brian scum-flip.

[copper223]

@Egg
Kind of the opposite, that is such a bad read I have a hard time seeing you make it as town.

Brian could be lying about being blocked either taking advantage of what Ushiro said yesterday or in concert with them, he could have been blocked by a townie scum-reading him, he could have been blocked by a third party, yet you decide him stating it makes him town enough to confirm him into the ritual (if he is scum 1 town vote is all he needs to sabotage this ritual as well) before the rest of the players have even had a chance to chime in, how come?

That is especially weird if you consider the theory you and Spiffeh are floating about that scum can post as other players in the QT's, you should be extra suspicious of those who claimed not to have journeyed.

[copper223]

@Egg
Are you townreading AP?

[copper223]

We went to upper world, successfully got there, and NO ONE WAS THERE.

Like no one who talked to us at least. :/

Did you pass the blocking item to AP?

[copper223]

I don't believe it is likely there are 2 independent blocking mechanics, especially cause we got only 1 claim D2.

[copper223]

I can imagine a peace pipe floating around.

I may smoke one for today but that's about it.

[copper223]

I'm having a very busy week and will be traveling tomorrow and Friday, will post more on the week-end.

For now:

- Brian, possibly scum, waiting for further developments though.

- Egg, if Brian flips scum, his most likely buddy, he has been backing him up while not really backing him up all game. He was one of the first to look for a bus on Yakko in the upper world n1 thread, I noted that he possibly knows that happened and was being "truthful" with that read.

- TTH, meta completely different from what I am used to seeing from her (both town and scum), I don't know what's going on there, willing to lynch.

- UA, I still think they are town but less sanguine about it as they are not answering about the block issue and I am not fond of some of the reads they gave.

- Hito, I also think he is town although he seemed very town early on but has since faded in the background a bit and that is worrisome, I disagreed with his AP push as well but didn't find it scummy necessarily.

- AP, also town, I noted that Brian said AP being wishy-washy is sometimes a scumtell for him, he has been very wishy-washy this game so I would expect a scumread there but that says more about Brian, from my pov. the read evolution is consistent with him screwing up on Yakko, then getting flak from UA because of it and possibly suffering from OMGUS and backing down from it, the one-off read I don't follow (like TTH apparently) is the Spiffeh scumtell he has had for a long time.

- Spiffeh, I also have as town, don't see any benefit in his crazy line about being haunted in the QT as scum and the reaction seemed genuine, on the other hand he is coasting hard and the latest set of posts isn't helping any.

In short, you are all pretty scummy mofas (said jokingly)... will try to answer direct questions, otherwise back on Saturday.

@mod: semi V/LA until Saturday

[copper223]

@TTH
That's just unacceptable, since you can read back:

- Were you present in both threads and what did the players write?

- Why did you choose to visit the middle world and did you get something out of it? The same goes for N1, did you meet a bird like Brian or did something else happen?

@Hito
Is your claim that there should only be 1 unique thread link strong enough for you to suspect Egg and TTH?

[copper223]

At this point we don't know if being a shaman is a prerequisite for the ritual to succeed, a safe assumption to make is that we don't want scum to be on it so the only considerations you should have when confirming someone in are first and foremost if you think they are town and then as a very distant second if they say they should be on it and how that could benefit town.

@mod: please prod TTH

[copper223]

Where did this happen? I have a hard time believe Brian would believe that at all.

It didn't, that was a bad shorthand translation in my notes about what Brian said in 1250.

[copper223]

The deadline is in 2 days

I've done the permutations, other than putting TTH on the ritual which is something I am not prepared to do given the way she has played, if you are town here TTH you are really screwing us over, or confirming someone that is a power animals and going against Fate's "Today we need

Shamans

in the following roles" the players currently on the ritual are the only ones we can have, since the mod is as lurkish as TTH I don't know if someone else other than me is missing a confirmation:

confirm all the volunteers

If I have the hammer TTH is getting lynched the day of the deadline.

[copper223]

@TTH
That kind of makes sense, I knew there was something off about your play this game... I still need answers to 1408 though.

[copper223]

I was worried about why there was no hint of a CW if TTH was scum, this looked a lot like Staeg yesterday up to the claim, Spiffeh's reaction is interesting as well.

[copper223]

All they talked about was what happened in the Upper World the previous night. Apparently, Katsuki thinks they actually got lynched there? I'm not sure since I wasn't in the Upper World on night 1

This one has to be fake, Katsuki was not present in the N1 upper world thread and we couldn't lynch anyone.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
Yes, you said something similar but now we have 2 sources to compare and I don't know how much TTH has actually followed and how much she has lurked.

Did you both choose to travel to the middle world during the D2 twilight?

[copper223]

Someone just confirm Brian, let's at least meet the prerequisites for the ritual to succeed.

[copper223]

Scum TTH doesn't volunteer that info. on the threads unless Spiffeh is her mate and in that case why did they build it up in the first place?

[copper223]

@mod: since most of us were unaware the deadline was looming I'd like to request a deadline extension

[copper223]

Why am I scum, Egg? I'm actually pretty okay with scrapping a bit here because it might help wake this thread up. But all you've mentioned so far is your "it must be Egg or Hito" spec, which is clearly shot to hell with the TTH animal claim anyway.

This is something I also want to know.

[copper223]

The NL-strategy just shifts the lynch to scum and likely sacks our 1-shot, I asked for the extension to avoid that.

[copper223]

I think I'm missing something here. We're on evens, Copper. We don't lose a lynch by NL-ing. We lost a lynch when Nacho got himself modkilled, but we also gained one extra townie to play with.

Thanks for being polite while saying I'm a dummy , I get that the number of lynches we have before endgame stays the same since we have even numbers and in most cases we would have to sleep at mylo, when we choose to sleep though is not irrelevant.

That said I am also currently leaning towards no lynch, partly cause Egg is on your wagon and Brian is on TTH's.

[copper223]

@Brian
I said I am leaning towards a no lynch in this situation, not that I want to no lynch, the fact the two realistic lynch candidates are being pushed by scum-reads of mine makes me question lynching them, in TTH's case it's actually sub-optimal to lynch her anyway given her claim and Hito's wagon looks rushed to me.

Remember I am not pushing you because of the peace pipe (and because nobody else seems to be on-board despite what to me looked like an obvious frame attempt yesterday), not because I suddenly think you are town (the rest of you kindly read back if I'm not around).

If we lynch a townie, TTH comes out with a guilty tomorrow and someone else dies in her place tonight leaving us at 4-2, the only rational play is to sleep again and I would expect everyone here to be able to figure it out, so yes I'd be confident we would make the right choice and I don't see an advantage in sleeping now instead, if anything this gives us less to go on instead in many cases if a comparative scenario were to happen.

[copper223]

I don't believe you have been blocked Brian, I dropped the subject because I thought that by choosing that particular name for AP's item you were implying something, and my reply was fine then, for today, see 1362. Why didn't you ask me about it at the time if that's not the case?

[copper223]

It should not make sense to you if you weren't following along, if you suspect me for real (as you claim you do), you should question why I am spouting nonsense, no?

[copper223]

My working theory on the blocks is that AP and UA were blocked by the same item and that UA passed it to AP, you are the odd man out.

[copper223]

Well, I have knowledge you don't have. So your 'nonsense' simply doesn't concern me because it's derived from different information than I have.

So my alignment doesn't concern you? Cause that's what is implied here, you are also kind of calling me town with the "derived from different information" line, I could have been making stuff up as well from Town_Brian's pov.

[copper223]

Why does scum TTH tell us she was in the middle world and got two QT's?

[copper223]

So? I'd never tell you that as scum, does she have a guilty complex when playing scum? Not in the Heartless game she played with me.

[copper223]

I agree, the problem is in my experience she is better than this as scum as well, so I find the explanation that she was flying under the radar on purpose because of her role more believable than she decided to play like crap in this particular game.

If she wanted to cover her movements up as scum it would have been much better to:

a) claim she did not travel to use an ability

b) claim she did not travel cause she was blocked

c) claim she did not travel cause she missed the twilight phase as she was busy (consistent with the rest of her perceived attitude this game).

d)...

[copper223]

I am checking and I am also not fond of a NL despite Hito's arguments but a deadline lynch just cause we might have the numbers seems just as bad.

[copper223]

Vote: Hito

Where do you plan on traveling tonight?

Is there a reason for this? I am likely going low again.

[copper223]

volunteer sun(fire)

Yesterday I was stuck in a spider's web, I need to go back to the lower world with fire to proceed, Brian's account of what happened in the thread is accurate.

Mass claiming with a guilty claim makes little sense to me although I'm not particularly against it, I don't get why town_hito in particular would want to do so though, Brian what are you claiming to have used on Spiffeh?

I used ayahuasca on TTH yesterday, that's a 1-shot NK protection ability so UA's bullet-proof claim makes me slightly uncomfortable, if UA is scum then their most likely partner is Hito.

[copper223]

I am waiting for what TTH has to say about it.

[copper223]

My thoughts boil down to this, I don't see why scum Spiffeh claims a guilty on you now so it's likely you are scum despite my early read (although apparently Grey often busses their partners for cred and that could have fucked with me).

You are doing a god job with your claim if you are scum, however there are some inconsistencies cause although I am also from a specific shamanic tradition like the Lakota you mention I don't have a precise name for the role in my tribe, like the heyoka you claimed, I would also have found an immediate claim after Spiffeh's guilty more convincing.

Your claimed role is also a mess, it's basically a fool that wants to be lynched late game, after having screwed with us by failing most of the rituals, making it likely that lynching them at that point will lose the game anyway, if you claimed some sort of third party that could win as scum or town as long as the ritual failing condition is met then I'd understand the concept, but like this it seems needlessly punishing to play, from a design standpoint.

[copper223]

AP, Brian, Spiffeh, does one of you also claim to have a specific role in their tribe?

[copper223]

i used something called mutlidimensionality which I thought just gave me access to all worlds, but it sounds like I'm just in fake worlds.

You told me you had the ability to speak to the dead in the N1 Upper world thread, are you claiming something different now?

The fact I have known you as a claimed PR since the middle of N1 while you are still playing around with a scum-read on me despite it, is one of the reasons I am not convinced you are town.

[copper223]

Nobody hammer until TTH posts her check

Brian what did you use on Spiffeh?

[copper223]

confirm Brian

[copper223]

VOTE: UA

This is L-1

It's useless to try and get a read on the rest until this is resolved.

[copper223]

@Hito
Why did you say you believed it was not possible to have multiple QT's?

[copper223]

Based on the latest comments I expect Ushiro to flip scum, in that case their interaction with Egg and the way Egg quickly voted and is now holding the vote in reserve while possibly pretending to talk, when this is just meaningless posting for the most part makes me think it's a distancing act and they are teammates.

Egg's latest posts remind me of what Marquis did in a game, basically moaning and flagellating himself all game for not understanding and being bad (he had just played a game with some of us where his early reads had been wrong) as a cover-up to avoid saying or doing anything useful, he did call some players town to buddy up which Egg hasn't done to the same extent though, regardless don't let him coast to end-game like this.

[copper223]

@Egg
Objectively bad? I don't think it has been regardless of your alignment from what I have been able to judge while in the game, my point is I have seen the confusion you are expressing today used to cover lack of analysis and if it continues I don't want the rest of town to be fooled by it if it's an act, because it's easy to sympathize especially in a jumbled up situation like it has been today where you have to try and adapt your reads to the case where UA flips as expected and UA's claim being real, I know it has given me a headache.

[copper223]

This is likely mylo, so FoS on Spiffeh.

I think TTH and Egg (or Brian if he did not influence the result of the last one) should be on the ritual today.

As far as Spiffeh's partner I can see AP or less likely Brian (depending on the mod answer) given the ritual failure yesterday, I noticed that the ritual results were given at the end of twilight instead of at the start so scum using a twilight ability is a possibility, the other thing that came to mind is UA doing something before they flipped, did they say anything about the ritual in twilight in the middle world thread?

I was in the lower world alone again btw.

If the ritual is a red herring, then TTH saying she was redirected yesterday may be how Spiffeh plans to get away with his fake check today, if TTH comes up with a guilty on UA and they don't flip scum, it's a given she gets lynched the next day, if Spiffeh does it then he has a shot at getting away with it and he opened up today by scum-reading her again, if he is scum he doesn't want any association with his teammates at this point.

I thought Egg and possibly Brian were town by PoE but everything Egg has said today rubs me the wrong way as usual (guys tell me your position on everything that is going on while I give nothing, so I can sheep whatever is the most popular opinion).

p-edit: you double down on the Illusion claim because you are on the record stating they are illusion, AP.

[copper223]

-shrug-
Im planning on voting Copper. But I would like to read some if I can. My follow through has been abysmal this game though.

Nice, you wanting to make it a 1v1 without thinking of alternatives or waiting for the mod to tell you if Brian's presence could have had an impact combined with defending Spiffeh using the most nonsensical arguments is a good indicator that it's the two of you.

@TTH
Explain the mechanics of your role.

[copper223]

@TTH

I noticed that the ritual results were given at the end of twilight instead of at the start so scum using a twilight ability is a possibility, the other thing that came to mind is UA doing something before they flipped, did they say anything about the ritual in twilight in the middle world thread?

[copper223]

Although Hito did mention he did not think it was possible for Spiffeh to get an illusion result there. I didn't mention it to him, but I am considering how UA claimed they started with the scumteam's alignment.

What are you trying to say here?

[copper223]

@Brian
There are two scum players left or this game is not balanced, 10 vs 2 vs 1 even if you assume the 1 is a Saulus that needs to be NK'd to switch sides, a claim I still have problems with, is not viable for the scum-team.

Spiffeh does not make the kill yesterday after being disabled (and in this format he knows he has been disabled since he can't travel), so you blocking him doesn't say much about his alignment.

Why did Spiffeh fake claim a check on UA and why did he say he did not receive your fake empower? How do you explain the night there were no kills?

[copper223]

We don't even know if UA was Saulus or a conditional BP to begin with, 9 v 3 v 1 seems pretty balanced if the 1 can win with both factions.

Because unless your empower did nothing it would be noticed when he got a different result from what was expected.

[copper223]

You asked him (twice I think) if he noticed any difference compared to the ability he said he used and he answered that he did not.

[copper223]

Does your ability include possible negative effects like screwing up his check?

[copper223]

The balanced number of scum players in a vanilla game is the square root of the pool, for 12 that's 3.5.

[copper223]

I think it's possible UA defaulted to the scum alignment on investigations since they claimed to have started with that alignment.

This would be terrible modding, Spiffeh specifically said UA was of the Illusion, not scum.

[copper223]

That's a baseline, I have seen no compelling evidence that the power ratio of the roles is stacked in a way to justify missing a scum player, if anything it makes me believe 4 scum is possible in this setup.

[copper223]

We do know that UA's alignment was different from Yakko's, so if the check determines the alignment (as was claimed) the mod reports the alignment in case of a success, not what is possible in the future or what is relevant for a player's win-con.

[copper223]

I hope not given we know there are 2 non town flips (from 2 different factions), what do you mean?

I interpret the mod post as: Spiffeh should have gotten Chaos as a result if his check had been genuine (or not tampered with, which I don't buy).

[copper223]

Can someone tell me why after a third party flip we are still assuming two living scum? Or why TTH's role and Spiff's gift can't both exist as town?

Because 2 scum and 1 third party, given a flipped JK, another flipped PR with unknown powers and a claimed self-watcher, 1-shot doc, 2 claimed 1-shot investigative, 1 claimed 1-shot fake empower/delayed block, 1 claimed block object, some other claimed weird powers from you, is likely not a balanced setup.

The second question is a claim Spiffeh made, given AP's peace pipe, Brian's fake empower, my Ayahuasca and Hito's confirmed JK role I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, nor the fact that they use different mechanics implies one has to be fake, interested in Spiffeh's explanation here as well.

Didn't you say stillness ended up being very disappointing?

i had one other thing (stillness) which turned out to be even more disapointing.

Now you are saying it was just the "multidimensional" enabler, what's so disappointing about that?

[copper223]

@Egg
The balance assessment is independent of your claim. I am pretty confused about it though, I'll admit, it does sound like a more useful role for scum as LLD claimed.

@Brian
I agree but that's based on the results of the checks, the roles alone are not mutually exclusive as far as I can tell and that's what Spiffeh claimed when scumreading TTH today.

[copper223]

I already gave my thoughts on it at the start of the day (nice to know nobody is reading posts longer than a paragraph... I'll try to post snippets instead).

I think it's possible if the ritual is a red herring, then the redirect is a likely cover story for Spiffeh so that he may get away with the fake check today, while she would be insta-lynched in the same position.

I'll have further thoughts on this later on.

[copper223]

@mod: do we know if there is a faction for all the town players?

[copper223]

Pray tell how Spiffeh is pseudo-cleared?

[copper223]

Like Hito I need to know the mechanics of her claimed ability to make up my mind.

[copper223]

What I want to know is if she claims that the result being posted in the QT is part of the ability's description.

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
Did you get your feng-shui ability choice from Fate via PM or in one of the night QT's?

[copper223]

@Spiffeh
So, if we are to believe a redirect happened, scum randomly chose to redirect you onto themselves without knowing what ability, if any, you were going to use, or scum can read PM's I guess, that's BS.

I also received my ability via PM, if I got it in the thread I could remotely imagine Egg using his multidimensionality to listen in and then tamper with your check to screw both UA and you, as claimed though that's not possible.

@Egg
Spiffeh claimed his check gave a faction result (Illusion), not a guilty/innocent, the town flips Fate provided were either Shaman or Power Animal, there was no faction specified, my question was is the faction "Town" implied by definition or not (and Fate implied it is unfortunately), because if it was not then Spiffeh's ability could not exist in this setup.

[copper223]

@TTH
So it doesn't say if you get the result in the QT or via PM?

@All
AP's position today really makes me think he is scum with Spiffeh.

[copper223]

So you are claiming the redirect happened before you used the check and it was was a "journey redirect" from the middle world to whatever threads Egg is in?

[copper223]

I don't need to be on the ritual and there is nothing about Yin or Yang that fits my role.

@mod: does this ritual also have a recipient?

confirm Brian