Mini 1837: Family Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Ranmaru]

Nacho:

Spoiler: Rest of your responses

1. It's less likely since Elyse has intentions to open an interaction with Kraska but Kraska does not reciprocate. If scum don't close it it seems less natural. Plus the question was *good*. Only thing is I think she did not follow up.

2. Yes. Please explain why it's ok for a question not to go anywhere besides being jokey.

3. Yet she was bringing attention to Elyse the whole time. Feels like she was having trouble warming up to the Elyse wagon. I don't think she'd try that hard to wiggle onto it if it was failing. I think she was struggling to produce content.

4. The point about Kraska not needing to distance since she could simply avoid Elyse and push a townie. I agree with that since it seemed she was struggling to produce content, as you can tell her reads were pretty weak. She also gave a scum reads of [Elyse, Camn] Yet she hasn't mentioned Camn as much as she did Elyse. It was nothing else.

4A. Kraska wanting to look like Elyse's wagon would go through is a stretch, since she was early on the wagon.

4B. An argument not making sense isn't alignment indicative. Elyse seems the type to vote out of emotion rather than logic. I think she's just wrong.

4C. I still feel it was simply Kraska struggling to make content so she's trying to follow up. Notice that she was not caught up with the thread so she was trying her hardest with what she had. Notice she was replying to Postie being wishy washy on Elyse's #329, it's easy to say "Yeah nacho kinda sucked but now I'm not sure about Elyse HMMM"

Next Post:

1. Yet it could also be a form of pressure.
2. I'm not saying it was unreasonable, she forgot to ask you about your reads too. That was my point.
3. I brought it up since it was something I saw you mention recently and I disagreed with you. I don't find that reasoning valid.
4. My point is I think scum would care more about their interactions with their own mates.
5. Alright.

[Ranmaru]

Now I'm done responding to Nacho. Let's get more votes on Camn.

[Ranmaru]

L-3

@

Sircakes

: You said you'd vote Camn over Elyse. Join me. Thoughts on my reasoning for Camn scum? Thoughts on house/gamma?
@

Giga

: I need your reads. I want your read on Camn.
@

Elyse

: You read Camn as scum. Join me on the wagon.
@

Gamma

: What is your read on Camn?

[Ranmaru]

Also Camn: What's your read on house/gamma?

[Ranmaru]

Actually looking at 1490 I'm thinking Nacho-camn as the remaining scum.

Expand on that.

[Ranmaru]

@

Sircakes

: #1396, #1427

[Ranmaru]

On Gamma, I agree the vote is pretty weak. I agree that it seems like a cop out lynch but House has been playing to that. He hasn't been trying to find scum and lately, he's been neglecting to produce content. Remember, he only questioned Elyse after I asked him, and he was in 'reviewing stage' but never came out of it.

[Ranmaru]

House/Gamma scum.

[Ranmaru]

Hey Nacho

[Ranmaru]

Do you realize how little loved-bulletproof scum makes? Or have you not thought of that yet?

[/quote]

I thought being BP-lover with one additional vote needed is a bit much, actually.

[Ranmaru]

At all. It seems made up simply to scare me away from Camn. I think having two pairs of town lovers is scum-sided. (I've been in a game with town lovers and scum lovers, I was the town lover) I said I'd go with either Camn or Gamma today. If you don't want Camn then you should consider Gamma. Also don't get why she claimed

early

. You also read her as Town D1. It'd help me if you explained why you thought so.

[Ranmaru]

*Half-claimed early

[Ranmaru]

That's the problem. You are so tainted by your Elyse read, that any person that doesn't fit with Elyse you don't consider.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not lynching you or Elyse because I want to lynch scum [Camn, Gamma]. I'm not backing down either. If you want to save camn you'll have to compromise. It'd also help if you gave reasons as to why you believe she's town. That's all I will say. I want content from those that have been quiet or haven't produced enough: Giga, Gamma. I do want to know why you have poked me to give Elyse partners/reads but not others like Giga or House.

[Ranmaru]

Dram: Read on House/Gamma?

[Ranmaru]

I agree to that.

[Ranmaru]

@

Sircakes, Dram

: Just need you two to prove the claim.

[Ranmaru]

Derp Dram's already on Camn.

[Ranmaru]

Lol. If Camn is loved I'd look at House/Gamma > Giga. I like Elyse's #1542

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Gamma

[Ranmaru]

All aboard

[Ranmaru]

Gamma Case: #1444

Gamma's entrance is bad, but even worse is he doesn't conclude his thoughts on me and instead joins my Camn wagon with weak reasoning. #1457

Since Camn is loved I belive it's more likely town than scum, and I think House + Giga would make sense as scum. Both have been underwhelming with stances. Giga has only come in at the start of the day to defend against herself. Elyse makes a good point that Giga never addresses Elyse's vote on her. I will remind everyone that Giga and Kraska came out of no where at the end of D1 and Giga's tone was accusatory, asking me 'why did you town read Kraska?' when I have said no such thing. Giga has been constantly re-reading all game. I re-evaluated her thinking that it was possible she just had trouble since her Camn read was null and most of her town reads were town. Yet she also has House as town [who is scum also] and has no reason to really progress the phase or solve the game.

[Ranmaru]

I support this wagon. I want to talk to anyone that does not see House/Gamma as scum. Especially Nacho. I am mobile so can't do much as of now.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma read on Giga?

[Ranmaru]

Why are you being reactive? Why no vote?

[Ranmaru]

If I was your scum read why did you agree and join my Camn wagon instead?

[Ranmaru]

Yeah it's Day 3: having a bunch of null/scum is BAD.

I'm going to unvote for now and if I don't find Elyse or Dramonic scummier

I'm voting Ranmaru.

UNVOTE:

This was never explained.

[Ranmaru]

I mean you have not explained why you did not vote me after, you skipped me and voted Camn. This has helped you keep your options open.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma admits in thread he is being reactive, because he has no drive to find scum. His voting patterns don't line up with his words. He is keeping his options open, which is why he never concludes his read on me and when I continue to push him he suddenly dislikes me. Now the nail in his coffin, he explains that he did not mention me because he did not do his re-read. That is a lie. I am off, be back later.

Gamma + Gigantic scum

[Ranmaru]

Let's focus on Gigantic and Gamma. Dram talk to me about Gamma recent actions. How do you feel about a Gigantic wagon?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma read on Dram?

[Ranmaru]

I still find Dramonic's "I can smell the LYLO setup" wrt to my early townreads really weird considering the kraska flip

, but that's hardly a case worthy of pushing someone on the day before MYLO. At this point, I've contributed as much as dramonic and have no fucking space to talk.

Talk to me more about this. Also talk more about Gamma and Dram in general.

[Ranmaru]

Camn vote Gama please.

[Ranmaru]

I was reading earlier and noticed he voted you earlier in the phase. You asked the question "I don't know why you would vote me." I want you to think harder on why he wanted to vote you, when you re-read.

[Ranmaru]

Stay on Gamma.

Nacho, talk to me about your Dram read.

[Ranmaru]

Because Gamma is scum and I don't think either of you are scum and you are in a death tunnel with each other. Gamma has a higher chance of flipping scum than either of you in my opinion.

[Ranmaru]

I didn't give a town-Elyse case or a town-Nacho case. Yet I posted in my read reversal that I thought she was slight town, and after Gamma posted I reversed of my nacho wagon support. I think you are slight town too. I also liked Elyse's recent catch up. I really want to hear your Dram read please.

[Ranmaru]

Is that why you have been watering down my case on Gamma? If you want me to go deeper into my Elyse read, I can do that.

[Ranmaru]

No I have not. No meta was factored into this read.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Dram Context

vote: SpicyJalapenoKnocks

Will you listen to me this game Spy?

Zito had problems with this quote. I don't know what it was, though.

Do you realize how little loved-bulletproof scum makes?

I think loved-bulletproof is bs as

either alignment

Postie had to agree with Zito's shot for it to go through, so I'm working from the assumption that she didn't and Camn is not actually protected.
OR camn just automatically wins any 3p endgame for the lolz.

Possible Dram is trying to stretch things simply to lynch Camn.

to clarify, gamma's entrance isn't particularely impressive but House didn't feel scum to me.

I don't understand how Dram gets a town read from this.

Oh look, camn is editing her claim

again

I agree with Camn that at this point there is no need to question the claim anymore.

more importantly

vote: kraska

This is what I find the most suspect Kraska connection wise.

This is a very weak connection but I feel it must be shown.

1. Dram continues to stretch Camn's claim as possibly scum/3p when her loved status has been proven
2. Dram has enough reason to keep House/Gamma as null but has him as town.
3. Dram sets up Kraska for a hammer.

This is all I have on Dram. Otherwise I have him as null and a Gamma scum flip will definitely help me get a bead on Dram. Gamma's tone read of Dram is also what makes me think they are scum together. No one else is town reading Dram except Gamma. Dram should at best be null, not town.

Lynch line:

Gamma > Dram > Giga

[Ranmaru]

What about the tone sets it apart as town rather than scum in your opinion?

[Ranmaru]

Which post?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma why didn't you answer Nacho's #1626? What anti-town actions were you speaking of?

[Ranmaru]

Blurg this Nacho thing is freakish. You do know it will be MYLO tomorrow if we mislynch today right?

What was this about then?

[Ranmaru]

I didn't notice House until Gamma replaced either. I didn't notice Dram possibly being scum with Gamma after him continuing to push Camn after her claim was proven. You have meta to back up your read, I don't. At the time I thought his buddy was in that pool but now I don't think that is the case anymore. I showed all the votes to show he wasn't doing much original things. I'm going to try to be more clear so you can see why I believe he is scum, so you can see the whole picture.

He's still scum. I agree with your reasoning on Dram, especially the difficulty of letting go of a mislynch. Then when I have time I'll re-read Elyse for you and try to give a fuller read on her for you, since you had done the same for me with your Dram read. (I don't promise I'll get it done today but I will get it done)

[Ranmaru]

@

Camn

: I think now is the time for you to go back and think about your #407.

[Ranmaru]

Agreed Cakes.

[Ranmaru]

What is the point in you posting #1666?

[Ranmaru]

I'm writing a case on House/Gamma scum but he's making the case on himself.

Still going to post it though to show Nacho. Gamma dies today.

[Ranmaru]

That is certainly a way to interpret my posts.

No comments on Gamma at all?

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: House Context

#15

#262
#264
#271

This exchange with Postie shows that House noticed something odd with Postie, as I did. (Even though I was wrong on her alignment) Yet, he ends the exchange with "That [response] makes me a sad panda..." and never comes back to it. When I replace in and push her for that other things he agrees. I don't find it pro-town to ask about that and drop it right there and then.

#376

He implies that it should be obvious that Dram is scumreading his townreads and is validated in taking a pot shot. States his suspicion on him is wobbly and says he's over-reacting.

---

#444

House has no scumreads here at the moment, otherwise he would have said them at this time. It shows he hasn't actually been developing reads, and he works on that in the next pages or so.

#466

Here he hops onto Hiplop for a 'garbage iso' and is asked why he hopped to him when jala has been doing the same. My theory is that he was trying to seem like he was doing something, so he chose the lowest contributing player to pressure when they weren't there.

#530
#554

Here House votes for Nacho via Elyse Proxy. He states he thinks Nacho is shading Elyse as scum but Spy asks where it is. House doesn't really know, which shows he isn't really reading thoroughly, just jumping on to jump on. (???)

#633

He over-reacts to Nacho's Dram vote here. Why feel the need to state that when Dram hasn't been doing as much either? This is another post that makes me think House is buddies with Dram.

605

This feels a bit over the top for a Hiplop vote. Hiplop hadn't been posting as much so there was nothing different between him and Jalapeno.



#671

House explains his hop off of Jala was a gambit since people were confused as to why he would switch between Jala and Hiplop, who seemed the same. I think it's a lie to cover up his actual intentions for voting Hiplop.

#692

This zito scum on Hiplop scum came out of no where. He uses Zito's confusion against him, lining him up on a weak reason. Scum motivation: To spin Zito's legitimate point into being not legit.



#641

Nacho critisized my original point. I thought House was hiding a buddy inside this list, but I feel it's better I show how it doesn't translate into D3.

#721

Here he states that he'll vote with me on Elyse D2 if she hasn't 'towned up'. I note that, and bring it up in the future.

#728

This is my issue with House. He supports me on the Postie push but when he was questioning her himself, he never actually reached a similar conclusion even though he has found questionable things that could have influenced his read on her. This makes me think he was simply wagoning Postie to wagon her.

#792

I don't think the long answer ever came.

#880

I dislike this, I simply want to bounce off reads but he is annoyed that I have asked him again. I wanted his take on Elyse!town but him reacting this way doesn't seem pro-town tonal wise.

#968

House re-votes Spicy as the vote count may have been reset. This is the point Kraska and Giga came into the thread to nag me.

#970

He tries to rush the wagon by telling others to vote Spicy for great justice. It felt like he was rushing the phase before more things were posted. Kraska at the time was pretty lurky and had not been in thread and popped in in a convenient time, and I felt he was rushing it to distract from that.


---


#1252

House begins his push on Camn, which seems half-jokey and not as convincing.

#1257

He unvotes after Camn's explanation, which shows he once again, has jumped impulsively without thinking about his actions before hand. He was probably thinking with the target of Camn in mind but not the Why. He never considered the BP. I considered it might be possible she was Scum BP. He unvoted after because he knew he had nothing.

Also I don't know why you would vote me.

Camn here notices that House has been voting her but it doesn't match up with his play. He never showed enough conviction that would make her go "Oh I knew he'd vote me" he played in a way that she went "Why would you vote me?".

He shows these two posts to remind her why he was voting her, as if it was apparent enough from those statements alone. #1028, #1012.

#1339

We get back to my point that House was not actually being proactive with his Elyse read development. I asked him in my #1338 on his thoughts on Elyse. Then, instead of answering my question, he drops a question about her Nacho vote, which could help him answer my question, but it shows he had a delayed response. It shows he got too comfortable not doing much and tried to pick up the slack.

#1340

Here he tells me he's underwhelmed by Elyse's play and wouldn't be voting there until after his review. Elyse posts her responses to me, and he never finishes his review. Instead, he quotes Nacho and posts some jokes. He then places a Dram proxy vote with Nacho. #1345, #1346

#1353

Now, he jokes around while Camn is pushing me. He never makes a stance or contributes an opinion of it either way. He just continues to joke and I don't find that to be pro-town to be ignoring that while posting.

#1391

Here he posts a laugh at Nacho's comment wrt Elyse. This is his last post before replacing out. He was still in the process of 'reviewing' Elyse, yet he never finished it. He elected to stay in fluff/joke mode. He couldn't do it, and when I pressed him to, he replaced out.

House Summary

:

1. Exchanges with Postie, but no conclusion, just 'sad panda.
2. Votes Nacho and says Nacho was shading Elyse, but isn't too sure.
3. Over-reacts to Nacho's Dram vote.
4. Uses gambit an excuse to hop between Jalal and Hiplop.
5. Shades Zito when Zito had a point.
6. Never gave long answer on his Giga read.
7. Annoyed when I ask to bounce Elyse read.
8. Rushes the spicy wagon when it seems like it was reset.
9. Weak push on Camn; not believable enough.
10. Wasn't being proactive on finding scum; Asked Elyse a question only after I asked him about his Elyse read.
11. Never finishes his review and leaves his vote on Dram, and replaces out when pressed for content.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Gamma Context

#1435

This is a red flag because it shows he has no drive to read context to read situations and interactions.

#1443

Here he states 'It's BAD that ranmaru has null/scums only!', which sounds really forced and fake. At that point, I was having trouble with both House and Giga since they were lacking in content and reads. Yet Gamma wasn't considering that, he only wanted to shade me.

#1495

Here he states a nacho-camn scumteam, after I push for it even further. He mentions no read of me nor does he resolve his statement on me. He simply skips to Nacho-Camn.

#1497

This is a very weak vote. It's suspicious because he doesn't vote Camn proactively, only when I have asked him to expand. His reasoning doesn't seem convincing as if he believes it either. Notice that he's joining MY Camn wagon while having mentioned he'd vote me earlier. So the question remains: Was he reading me as scum at this moment or as town? Why not mention that?

#1565

Here he unvotes Camn after her role is proven, and he mentions she *MAY* be scum. He then gives an opinion of me, pushing the new guy. He doesn't even look at the reasoning, he just makes it seem like he's a victim when he's done some shady business.

#1569

Here he votes me again, after joining me on the Camn wagon. This does not make sense. This does not seem like someone developing reads, but only wagoning to wagon. So, let's get to the point. Him not mentioning me in between the this vote and him saying he'd vote me is him keeping his options open. His reasoning for getting on me is weak. #1571

#1578

Here, he gives an excuse for not giving a conclusion or read on me when joining Camn with me. He blames it on not re-reading. So, if he joined the Camn wagon with a possible scumread without re-reading and had no scumread on me at the time, it shows he has no real need to develop reads and is only doing so to appear town. Put simply, the excuse is BS and it shows that he isn't really developing reads.

#1591

Here he responds to Giga, of his scumlean on her. He mentions that he finds forming a townbloc scummy and she says they were simply townreads. He says it seems like a townbloc to keep on her, to justify keeping the scumread on her.

#1594

Here, he gives Dram a town read based on tone. Saying that he's not being deceptive in general. I feel that this is not natural to have a Dram town read when no one else has one. He's at best a null and his reasoning to town read him is weak.

#1596
#1601

Here, he then finally backs down after Nacho questions him on the semantics of Townbloc. Gamma says "Ok I

thought

it was a townbloc" which shows he didn't have good reason to keep pushing the Giga scumread.


#1624

He votes Nacho here for anti-town actions.

#1627

Then Nacho asks him what's wrong with pushing his scum read etc. He can't answer, so instead he states a new reason, that he thought Nacho said he'd self vote when it was Elyse who pushed for that. Then, he votes me again. Notice that he doesn't Vote Elyse nor does he question her since she was the one with the 'anti-town' action. This shows he couldn't answer Nacho's question and instead chose to back off with a crap excuse.

#1649

After Nacho posts his Dram scum read, Gamma instantly reverses it, he is swayed.

#1652

He then states that I could be a buddy to Dram without showing how. This shows he cares more to throw shade on me rather then explain why he thinks I'm connected to Dram.

Gamma Summary

:

1. Forced and Fake stance in #1443.
2. Weak vote on Camn wagon
3. Joined me while not having a read on me
4. Never gave conclusion on me when on Camn.
5. Has no real stances.
6. Makes constant contradictions.
7. Cannot answer honestly and instead backtracks.
8. Puts foot down on weak logic to justify a scumread, then backtracks.
9. Shade everywhere.

[Ranmaru]

In conclusion

:

House asked questions, but his conclusions sometimes did not match with a town mindset. [Postie] He over-reacts to Nacho's Dram vote possibly due to a connection to him. He has been active and questioning but has not really provided that many scumreads. After answering Kraska saying he had 'reads on people', he voted Hiplop, and was questioned for hopping from one similar slot to another. He then states it was a gambit to justify the switch. He has a weak push on Camn, which isn't believable and Camn notices this. He backs down pretty quickly, and states he may wagon Giga but doesn't do much from there. He continues to joke post but forgets that he has to fake scumhunt, until I asked him his Elyse opinion. He then asks her a question and states he is underwhelmed, and wouldn't cry about her lynch. He states he would not vote until he finished reviewing, but he never finished that review and simply replaced out when pressured to produce.

Gamma came in with a very suspicious post in #1443. His reasoning on me was forced and fake. He then skipped me and joined the Camn wagon, without concluding his read on me. He then states that the reason he never did was because he did not re-read Elyse/Dram. Yet, this is an excuse to keep his options open, and he came back around to his scumread on me, which is weak. He does not make sense and he throws shade everywhere.

[Ranmaru]

More Gamma votes please. He dies today.

[Ranmaru]

I look forward to your analysis Camn.

[Ranmaru]

Let's do this.

Gamma scum > Dram scum.

Nacho already explained Dram scum.

[Ranmaru]

Fair enough, will drop the review point in that case. Everything else applies though.

[Ranmaru]

Ehhhh.

Hm. I like your vote, but what was this about?

This is a good question from Giga. Now, let me theorize as to why he said Ehhhh. He voted Krakauer, and then Dram. Then he saw the Spicy wagon, and faked interest in his own dram Vote. This implies distancing between himself and Dram. Meaning, he was faking that he felt Dram deserved the wagon, otherwise he would have pushed it.

[Ranmaru]

Will reply to you soon, Nacho. You are wrong. I want to ask, since when did your Dram scum read originate?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma: Go into your read on Nacho and Elyse. I want reasonings on both.

[Ranmaru]

What if there is no lyncher in the game. How would you read them in that scenario?

[Ranmaru]

Nacho

:

1. He was shading a drunk post, hardly something to think is weird.

2. No, town can as well since I did as well. Yet his reasoning was to only state that he found the investigative scummy with no reasonable basis. There is no point to state that as it doesn't progress the phase nor does it help find scum. My doubt was different as I thought Cakes may have been faking it since he didn't full-claim, yet you gave good reasoning as to why I was wrong.

3. His reaction to Postie's contradiction leans more towards scum than town since he let it slide until I came in. I'm not attacking his playstyle.

4. That was an over-reaction. That is *not* similar with my ignoring of Dram's slot. You are ignoring this, and are not being understanding when I have given you the point. I don't have Dram's meta that you can relate to. Dram wasn't readable to me because 1) People were saying this was normal dram and 2) Dram didn't become readable until he commited on Camn this phase.

5. It does matter. Simply being active does not mean he's town from it, and he's defended people a lot and made a lot of questions. Yet nothing beyond that. By itself, it does not line up as scum. But along with his recent play, it does. You state I'm not attacking his content, and let me ask, what content? What's his most memorable content to you? Because I don't remember seeing any content from him this phase that can help me read him. That's my problem. You describe his play perfectly in your #1455, albeit indirectly.

6. This should be and will be an argument. I am using anecdotal experience, I have been scum who has gotten lazy, and has not cared to scumhunt and been caught as being lazy. That's what happened with House here. Do not ignore this. Scum can forget to scumhunt especially when they are town read and have no need to show anything beyond that. If there is no need for them to intervene, why do so? Don't you think it was odd he did not comment on Camn v Ranmaru a few pages back?[/quote]

[Ranmaru]

I am still confident House/Gamma will flip scum. I'm getting vibes that Nacho is scum ignoring Gamma's faults, and is watering down my argument here. He is ignoring House's play as being Scum 101 as he describes to keep him alive. I felt he might have had something on Dram but now i'm not so sure. Nacho is being very obtuse and is ignoring legitimate reasons. He is also trying to draw a connection between me and Dram when there isn't one, without directly stating it.

Gamma > Nacho > Dram

[Ranmaru]

Actually

VOTE: SpicyJalapeñoKnocks

3 (probable) scum? 3 unconfirmed players?
SpicyJalapeñoKnocks/Papa Zito/Nachomamma8 for scum gg

Ehhhh.

This is also voteworthy

Upon House/Gamma's scum flip, this will show that Elyse is town.

[Ranmaru]

look at this post

vote: SpicyJalapenoKnocks

Will you listen to me this game Spy?

LOOK AT IT

VOTE: dramonic

What's wrong with it?

tbh i think the nacho push is probably coming from town but we should talk about the dramonic push

kraska do you think anyone is scum or are you still pro-spicy policy lynch

Do you have anything to add to the dramonic push? I've been uninterested because I don't see how his play has been different from normal dramonic play thus far.

Nacho, can you explain why you stated this albeit giving a Meta read on Dramonic? How does this line up?

[Ranmaru]

No reason to state that on an investigative unless you had a genuine reason (setup spec) to believe it. Otherwise it's just fluff/useless.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho doing Gamma's work for him is reallllly pissing me off. I held off on voting Gamma because I wanted to see how he reacted to pressure and the case on him but Nacho did everything for him.

Gamma let him do it too, he lurked through it all. He only posted since I addressed him.

[Ranmaru]

I am going to take a nap. Elyse, I would love to see your thoughts on Gamma. I don't think he is going to respond to the case or do much else. I am done arguing with Nacho but he can post his response to me. I also don't like that Gamma is calling you a lyncher to read Nacho as town.

[Ranmaru]

Dram explain your read on Nacho.

[Ranmaru]

Why.

[Ranmaru]

1. Why do you read him as town; give the reason.
2. What do you think of his Dramscum reasoning?
3. Since Giga is town to you who replaces her in your scumlist?

[Ranmaru]

Nacho answer my #1713.

[Ranmaru]

You state Dram's post #56 is a red flag yet you say the opposite. You yourself say Dram was playing like normal dram but you don't bring it up until you vote him. I would expect you would notice this earlier if it was such a red flag to you.

[Ranmaru]

B) I had a townread on House.

Gamma is not as townie on their own

,

and I did have SOME insecurity that House was fooling me

. But I think still Town-ISH.

Ranmaru- I wanna read more before I do that.

I'm not totally against it though

... I just am having trouble shaking of my House townread.

Semantic arguments are scummy af.

[Ranmaru]

This shows her progression on how she's feeling about House. She had a town read on him but she was doubtful of it and said she wasn't totally against it, and found Gamma's semantic argument scummy. (in general) Gamma isn't reading at all, just reacting to current posts. All he is doing is sitting on my wagon, doing nothing.

[Ranmaru]

Giga talk to me about Nacho. I don't think he is making sense here. I also think it's more likely Nacho is scum over Elyse.

[Ranmaru]

That's stretching it.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho, why haven't you poked at House or Giga for reads but you poked me?

[Ranmaru]

Why did you have that expectation, I am curious.

[Ranmaru]

Alright. Elyse, where you at.

[Ranmaru]

My thoughts on that comment by Gamma was "You can't lynch me I'm in your town read's slot!!" which reeks of Gamma relying on house's town read to save him without doing anything on his own. So no. Especially since I pointed out that Camn was wavering on her House town read, and that I have shown that Gamma isn't reading thoroughly. [#1744]

[Ranmaru]

Ran also thought it was scummy iirc

Yes.

[Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

I did not reread

Elyse and Dramonic

. Let's be clear here.

Final reads list. Also explain why you never re-read Elyse/Dram.

[Ranmaru]

Okay. With all of that, Dramonic is definitely NOT a townread. More like nullscum.

[Ranmaru]

Use awesome hammer picture along with hammer plz

[Ranmaru]

What's up guys.

So the play today is Dram.

Calling it now.

Nacho - Mafia Traitor
Dram - Mafia

[Ranmaru]

Also was very happy with that flip.

[Ranmaru]

Pretty sure the Gamma wagon was all town. Come in here and talk to me.

[Ranmaru]

I would if that would end the game today. You can vote Dram though.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho:

I mean you act weird and vote Dram a bunch of times...
House votes Kraska and Dram Page 1 and then reacts to your Dram vote...

HMMMMMMMMZ

[Ranmaru]

Nacho has played in a way that would seem anti-town, and I think Dram noticed that. Both Nacho and Dram tried to set up Kraska for Hammer. Nacho is being more obvious while Dram is being subtle.

Also Nacho's only play is to be distracting and try to get himself lynched and give Dram an extra day

[Ranmaru]

Two Mafia Traitors and Two Mafia (family) makes sense. The Two Mafia Traitors would count as 1 in total.

[Ranmaru]

Also in the wiki it says that if there is a traitor, the mafia is probably undersized by 1. I feel that Nacho only knew of Kraska and Dram and just tunneled elise to hopefully show some weird signs that scum would be looking for.

Mafia don't know who the traitor is but MIGHT the existence of a traitor or more.

[Ranmaru]

They do Camn. I do think it's possible that Nacho and Dram are both family scum. But I'm not going to take suggestions from Nacho scum.

Safest bet is Dram, in my opinion, especially with him trying to scumread you after your claim was tested.

[Ranmaru]

Love you too Nacho but I have no reason to trust you.

[Ranmaru]

Your effort has not gone unnoticed.

[Ranmaru]

start making sense pls nacho.

and Ran- im not sure. scum lose a kill to recruit, yes?
I think 3 full maf.. 1 traitor. Especially since I am mad overpowered

Yeah they do. Possible on 3 maf and 1 traitor. I'm going with the safest option though. Also want to see others post.

[Ranmaru]

If you were town you wouldn't advocate your own lynch to lynch Elyse since we'd lose two town in that scenario and lose possibly to two scum. We have to lynch correctly today.

[Ranmaru]

If you were mafia traitor #2 and we lynch lone Mafia Dram you'd be endgamed.

[Ranmaru]

wtf

[Ranmaru]

UNVOTE

[Ranmaru]

why would you fucking vote

[Ranmaru]

We are lynching Dram today. Not Elyse. Why would you vote Elyse, Giga?

[Ranmaru]

It's Dram. By play and connections. Elyse is town from her push on House/Nacho early game. Seriously.

[Ranmaru]

Especially Giga.

[Ranmaru]

Elyse Nacho is being distracting for a reason. Giga is quickly making me doubt her.

[Ranmaru]

I think House would vote his entire team in the beginning. I think Dram doesn't have connections to house or Nacho (possibly) but did notice Nacho's weird votes.

[Ranmaru]

like why is it suspicious to derail a lynch from a traitor? house didn't leave very clear crumbs to nacho/kraska. it's either dram or elyse to me

Are you even reading Giga.

[Ranmaru]

ran do you still think there are four scum

Tell me what you think

[Ranmaru]

Giga: Do you deny that Nacho has ignored all good reasons to lynch Gamma?

[Ranmaru]

I'm not saying that.

[Ranmaru]

Giga: Do you deny that Nacho has ignored all good reasons to lynch Gamma?

was nacho even online when gamma slipped up with his dram read??

Answer the damn question.

[Ranmaru]

I think our pool is [Dram, Nacho, Giga]

[Ranmaru]

I'm considering it. Now shush.

[Ranmaru]

Giga I am waiting for your answer.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho: Why are you spam posting

[Ranmaru]

Yes I looked back for crumbs and House quickly voting kraska and dram seems telling. Then again, Gamma's fake read on dram has me questioning this a little. I feel like scum would have a better handle on their reads on their buddies.

Ranmaru what do you think about this?

As I said, I would assume house might vote both his buddies. He could just have voted one buddy and one town though to spread mis-information. It's why I'm trying to look at dayplay right now. I'm trying to sort [Dram, Nacho, Giga].

[Ranmaru]

i mean i didn't think his rebuttal to your case was that terrible
scum!nacho doesn't know that he's derailing a partner lynch and i don't think that was his motivation

I never said he knew his traitor. I'm talking about the argument.

[Ranmaru]

His rebuttal was pretty terrible. Now that I think of it, Nacho never pushed you or House for reads.

[Ranmaru]

I'm in the same boat. What's bugging me about dram is that as scum, I'm very aware of how I'm reading my buddies. I find it kind of odd that Gamma slipped up with his dram read if he's his buddy. But then again it could have been a last ditch effort to spread paranoia since he knew he was going down.

I think Nacho may be pretending to be traitor to distract me away from him and just vote Dram or someone else. I think that's his best play. Seeing Giga and Nacho come in like this, I think Giga and Nacho may be the scum. Dram continued to push the Camn scum theory but it's weak compared to Giga, who had more things I disliked, and kind of lurked yesterday.

[Ranmaru]

I also really hate Giga's read on you, Elyse. I hate how she's saying that Nacho made sense.

[Ranmaru]

I can agree with Camn that there may be 3 scum and 1 traitor.

[Ranmaru]

hmm

[Ranmaru]

If Nacho were town he'd re-evaluate and look at his Dram read but he's not doing that.

[Ranmaru]

If Nacho were town he'd re-evaluate and look at his Dram read but he's not doing that.

[Ranmaru]

no

[Ranmaru]

Nacho, please just present a case. Don't spam.
Giga, you too.

Elyse if you could do the same, that'd be helpful.

[Ranmaru]

I didn't pay attention to it after I was lynched there.

[Ranmaru]

Case, Nacho.
Case, Elyse.
Case, Giga.

Stop Spamming. Nacho if you were town, spamming doesn't help me trust you if you intend to lynch scum.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho do you truly believe pages 1-3 are useless for scumhunting?

[Ranmaru]

Have you ever argued this in games as town

[Ranmaru]

My reasons for dram scum:

House voted kraska and dram at the beginning of the game, dram has done nothing all game that points to him being town

My reasons for Nacho scum:

Nacho is a good player and he's been wrong on like every read, his interactions with kraska are weird, he was completely averse to lynching Gamma (I know he didn't know Gamma was the traitor but House/Gamma could have given a signal we didn't pick up on)

but frickin Giga

[Ranmaru]

Giga explain your Elyse/Dram team

[Ranmaru]

whatever giga just explain

[Ranmaru]

Lynching in {

Elyse, Dram

} is probably our best bet though (Dram only for the RVS vote but other than that it seems unlikely)

Explain this.

[Ranmaru]

I'm watching. Just thinking hard.

Camn I need you here. Thoughts on recent events?

[Ranmaru]

Giga explain Nacho being obv-town.

[Ranmaru]

Why does House's interactions with him matter

[Ranmaru]

hmm

[Ranmaru]

Nacho: Why didn't you let Gamma react to my case

[Ranmaru]

dram ilu I just lmao'd

[Ranmaru]

Dram who do you think is scum?

At this point I'm dropping the two traitor theory and re-evaluating.

[Ranmaru]

Funny thing is I didn't think Gamma was traitor, I thought Nacho was.

[Ranmaru]

Dram what made you go "I don't feel Nacho is scum here?"

[Ranmaru]

This is frustrating because you use your nonsense 4 scum theory in order to discredit my read. There is not a single person who buys into the four scum theory. Even Elyse, who is worshipping you as the Second Coming for getting House, doesn't buy into the four scum theory. There are not four scum and here you are using that possibility to discredit the idea of Elyse as scum. This is frustrating.

I think you'll have to understand why I've come with a bias today, seeing as you pretty much ignored my House push, all three times. Yet I have dropped the theory. I think you'll truly understand my feelings when I say that I thought

you

were Traitor and not Gamma. Anyway, I kind of want to see you bring up a game or two of you being town and arguing similar things. That would help me dispel my weird vibes of you.

[Ranmaru]

That was all Nacho lol

I'm re-reading

[Ranmaru]

elyse, i'm townreading both of those people though?? explain

also kraska who are you voting for? i can't find a vote from you

I meant House's "ehhh". Postie is fine.

Why are you townreading House?

He felt the need to point out he was kidding in RVS which means he's concerned about how his RVS looked. And then he's already being skeptical of Postie's clearly not serious "3 unconfirmed players = 3 scum" theory.

hmmmmmm

[Ranmaru]

Actually

VOTE: SpicyJalapeñoKnocks

3 (probable) scum? 3 unconfirmed players?
SpicyJalapeñoKnocks/Papa Zito/Nachomamma8 for scum gg

Ehhhh.

This is also voteworthy

[Ranmaru]

I thought House gave away Dram as well on a first glance, and he *did* over-react to Dram votes. Yet this is actually him misleading us. Now then, let us talk about yesterday. Nacho hard defended Gamma with silly logic. I mean I didn't just catch him with nothing, I felt the scum vibes. Anyway, I did consider that Nacho was a townie on a suicide mission to kill Elyse because he was that sure, I was simply considering it as the worst case scenario. Yet, I think it's possible that he is right. I was distracted by this theory after Mafia Traitor flipping.

After I have become sane once again, I thought about it. Yet look at these two posts by Elyse here. This shows her recognizing House's scoff at the 3-man scum-team. She pressures him in the beginning and then lurks to her Nacho vote, with no conclusion in between. She's been a little bit more active this phase than D1. Yet I will talk to you all about what I noticed yesterday. Elyse didn't comment on Gamma while I was pressuring him, and while Gamma was slipping up. She also stated she would post thoughts on Gamma in her #1687, yet those thoughts never came. Just an intent to hammer. There were long periods of waiting.

Nacho is correct that he defended her by giving her an extra day, and even saying she's underwhelming but never voting her. Yet I will give the point that House said that about Nacho / Elyse / Camn / Cakes. He did vote Nacho D1, and did tell me he'd off Nacho if it came to it. He voted Camn Day 3, but backed off that. Cakes is dead. That leaves Elyse, who he never voted.

[Ranmaru]

Now, I considered Nacho as some Mafia Traitor because of his weird votes on Dram all the time. I would say if he was town this was hurting town since after Mafia Traitor flipping, it'd be hard not to think those are signals. Especially since House reacted to Dram in a weird way. Yet if there are 3 scum with 1 traitor, this cannot be true. So I'm officially putting that theory to death. Nacho is proven to not be traitor as of this post. So the Dram votes are just weird Dram votes that I wish he didn't make. So let's focus on his actions either being mafia family or town. In this case, I'd think he would be town as mafia don't death tunnel like this. Giga comes off as town because of her reluctance to vote Nacho and coming in firm, even though I didn't like her entrance at first glance.

[Ranmaru]

That then makes me look for one scum instead of more than one, and Elyse as solo scum makes more sense than Dram as solo scum in my perspective. The lurking in between House and Nacho votes, the faked confidence, and the ignoring of the Gamma wagon. She actually has a connection to Gamma since she actually was aware of his traitorness as you can see in my #2014. Nacho doesn't, and he hard defended gamma. Scum would not do that. He ignored it like a fool, but it's funny since I ignored his Elyse wagon that phase to kill Traitor scum.

[Ranmaru]

So I say good job Nacho. I apologize for not listening to you sooner. I think the play today is Elyse.

#CaseClosed

[Ranmaru]

This is my new lynch line:

Elyse > Dram.

I'm hoping Elyse is the last scum and we win the game with that, but it's possible Dram is also scum with her if there are 2 scum left. I'm hoping the team is undersized though.

[Ranmaru]

By the way, Dram would be scum after Elyse via PoE and his reaction to the loved claim after it was tested successfully. Yet I think Elyse is the way to go here.

[Ranmaru]

Here are thoughts:

House defended you stronger than anyone else. House talked me out of my vote on you because you were such a great player. House focused on hiplop as a vote instead. Even Day 2 when he started acknowledging that you were underwhelming, underperforming, he still didn't vote for you. He pushed for you to get an extra day to everyone who asked and everyone who pushed. Gamma didn't vote you despite the vote on you being the major counterwagon; instead he called you a lynchee target (first) and then a lyncher who we shouldn't focus on (second).

[Ranmaru]

Also you think House being all "omg Elyse is amazing I'm going to listen to her" and then doing a complete 180 when Nacho told him to points to me being scum with him over Nacho? Like if he was buddying up to me as a traitor crumb then why would he listen to Nacho like that?

It's really weird that he did that 180 on you and never voted you.

[Ranmaru]

So here's what I want:

I want Camn to vote Elyse so I can hammer because that's where the cool kids are at, and Camn and I are cool.

[Ranmaru]

Still want Elyse. Her recent post dies not relieve my issues.

[Ranmaru]

After your initial pressure on House you read him as town and never came back to that. You can't really argue against what I brought up as it is behavioral. If you were town you would have taken more of a direct stance on Gamma. Nacho did and it put all the attention on him. Is it not between Nacho and you? Why would I vote Dram out first.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Elyse

[Ranmaru]

I just stuck to you. I have been flip flopping between you and Nacho. If it's not you it's Dram.

[Ranmaru]

Meaning I may reconsider and I did not want to reconsider. I do not see Nachos play to be scum with how hard he pushed it. So if not you, Dram.

[Ranmaru]

If Nacho is I will take responsibility.

[Ranmaru]

No it's not like that. I think you are cool Elyse. I just think it is you then Dram. Otherwise if what you said was true I would not have pushed the wagons I pushed yesterday.

[Ranmaru]

If Nacho v Elyse was TvT, I tried telling them that was possible. I still think if Elyse is town than it's Dram.

[Ranmaru]

I still have to reconsider Nacho though. Since a Towne would try to get the best Lynch possible, meaning re-evaluate.

[Ranmaru]

We need to mass claim tomorrow.

[Ranmaru]

Camn was seen going no where though.

[Ranmaru]

huh?

[Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

Camn, thank you for recovering for me. Nacho, I'm sorry you had your break down but I find our interaction yesterday funny and interesting to read now. Giga, good play and sorry for harping on you. Also didn't realize you were a newbie haha.

[Ranmaru]

Sorry for the hammer guys, that was really sub-optimal and impulsive of me.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: SHOUT OUTS:

Postie -

Sorry for scum reading you early on, and I totally understand your actions now (cuz mazons). I just totally didn't understand you. My bad.

Hiplop -

Thanks for replacing out so I could play. I was doing my bestest to get into this.

Ran -

Hi


Elyse -

I'm really sorry for hammering you like that and wish you come back.

Dram -

You! Your 'I'll eat my hat if Camn isn't scum' comment threw me off dude. Anyway I feel like you did yourself a disservice by playing via POE in Lylo but I'm glad you did it so town can win. Thanks for supporting me on camn when it counted though.

Camn -

As I said, I thank you for recovering for me and sticking to Dram. I misread you, but glad we tested your role so we could find scum gamma. I'm glad I was able to work with you in the time I was still alive. I should have waited for you. Love your drunk posting. All in all, nice meeting you and nice playing with you.

Kraska -

Thanks for offering to let me join pre-game! Kraska you are really cool. Sorry you turned out to be scum though It was fun playing with you regardless and I hope to buddy with you when we are both town.

Spicy -

Yo guys, you all seemed busy and kind of got lynched for being a hydra and inactive. I can see you two were busy but I am ok with your lynch happening, it helped us get a flip d1 and stuff happening n1.

Sircakes -

Yo! Fun playing with you dude and good stuff catching Kraska n1 hahaha, I wonder what made you pick her? You played the role well and me being dumb thought it might have been a scum ploy but glad we moved past that and found scum in gamma.

House -

Yo dude, was fun playing with you and buddying with you even though you were scum, lolz. At the time it seemed nice (when I thought postie was scum) but luckily I found scum!you when you weren't delivering. Had you stayed it might have turned out differently.

Gamma -

Yo bro fun games and I think when you are scum you are easier to read haha. At least, that's what I think just from this game. I also read two other games of yours for this, town and scum. Anyway you're cool dude, see you around.

Giga -

Hey Giga! You are pretty cool too, nice meeting you, I like your style! You remind me of a player named Katafi! Really good player but who's funny and all that. I didn't realize you were a newbie here, and I apologize for me harping on you for some reasons and can understand why you have had no real direction. (At times I thought that was an excuse but I was wrong hehe)

Papa Zito -

Dude lol you told me way too late to join this game I was so FRICKIN PISSED but I was determined to get in this game, ask UTL. I did not give up. I did not surrender. I was going to get in this game, hopefully. I kept refreshing the game until I finally got in. I had a lot of fun! Question, thoughts on my play? We have only played in this game, Open 300, and Skype Mafia, so interested how you have seen me develop. (Pros and Cons)

Spyrex -

Yo Spyrex, it's good seeing you too! Glad to play with you again after all these years and glad to see you won a game. You deserve it man.

Nachomamma8 -

Yo dude, I am sorry I was obnoxious with you on Gamma and Elyse but I think now you know why I was being so stubborn on them. If only I stuck to you and Elyse being town on town we'd probably have won a day earlier. I let the House lynch taint my read on you along with your push on Elyse, but I also considered that hey, if you pushed so hard for it, I'll consider it. Then I convinced myself and did something dumb. SO I DID IT FOR YOU AND I MESSED UP, I'M SORRY. Anyway, as I said, I found our interactions yesterday to be interesting and funny, and I'm going to re-read it, especially the Chavo Guerrero part. Was fun playing with you again, and good stuff choosing Dram. I'm glad you came to the light side.

[Ranmaru]

ranmaru you're batshit crazy
and i love you

<3

[Ranmaru]

UTL: Thank you for the game. Thank you for all the vote counts, I loved that. Awesome Avatar. Thank you for talking to me and listening to me ramble via PM. Awesome setup. If you are going to Dram's I hope to see you there. If you have any thoughts on my play I would love that, and anyone else for that matter. In fact would be nice to see what you think of everyone's play for that matter, interested in your thoughts as a host.

[Ranmaru]

I did consider that. I'm glad that I was bumped to waiting for a town slot. I was really hoping for town.

[Ranmaru]

Firebringer is the true winner

You can have this one, I'll allow it.

[Ranmaru]

Kraska Giga I gave you shout outs!! Also to everyone in the player list.

Scum PT???

[Ranmaru]

Gamma I smelled the scum on you as soon as you said my nulls were BAD. That was forced as hell. At least recognize that.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma I smelled the scum on you as soon as you said my nulls were BAD. That was forced as hell. At least recognize that.

The hell?
Having THAT MANY null reads Day 3 reeks of scum to me as town, so OF COURSE I'd push it as scum.
You're just not used to my playstyle.

You misunderstand me. I had nulls on players that made sense to have nulls on. Your slot was null because he wasn't contributing. Giga was null because she was having a hard time contributing and I needed more from her, etc. You just didn't notice because you didn't care to notice. (Because scum) Your reaction was forced, I'm just saying that so you can be aware of how you say that next time.

The way you said it

. Also no I think you are easy to read like I am. That isn't a bad thing. Anyway good try.

[Ranmaru]

That's probably it yeah. I don't recognize tells by name I guess, I just recognize the scumminess vibe and just push. Sometimes I can't put a name to the these things.

[Ranmaru]

this will probs be the last post but I just wanted to be the last post cuz this game was so fun wheeeee

[Ranmaru]

I am not sure. I'm intending on taking a mafia break. Yet I'll be viewing [via green room] if not playing. 5 mafia games have taken a toll on me.