Mini 1968: Bread uPick: The Baker's Dozen: Endgame
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
No. You've claimed something that seriously doesn't match your behaviour. Without a reason for that, there's every reason to believe you are lying.In post 901, WhemeStar wrote:And I'm not claiming anymore of my role so stop fishing
Is there a reason my slot is at nullscum rather than null for you? It looks to my like it's got no content, except for one really weird post from Ecto that I haven't seen anyone think is scummy rather than just weird.In post 902, Wormhole wrote: Fish, I like your catchup post lol; both because it's so nicely organized lol and because I mostly like the content you've provided. It's not enough to bump you up from nullscum yet, cuz of how you're slot has been the whole game, but so far I like what I'm seeing.
And yeah, I do try to make my longer posts nicely formatted these days, to stop people's eyes glazing over quite so much.
The best example is probably this one:In post 902, Wormhole wrote:
I dunno what this means lol.In post 894, Fishythefish wrote:But the clincher is the windows into the hydra; it's like having access to a player's internal monologue, which I think is hard to fake and in this case obvtown.
Making up this sentiment from BV would be impressive stuff, and the sentiment not something that is likely to come from scum. I think that to fake this and other posts like it, you'd have to maintaining a whole "if we were town" thread in your hydra, which would be more effort than people usually put in.In post 694, Wormhole wrote:tldr: I'd be OK with it, but I want Fykus or you more (although it seems you're more off the table now), but BV *really* doesn't want the day to end yet, until *he* figures out which of fykus/dreal/dunk he wants more, and he also doesn't want the day to end without hearing like opinions from dreal/ecto/misa/chick when she comes off v/la.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
On drealmerz:In post 908, Wormhole wrote:@FishytheFish, what do you think of Drealmerz's tracker claim (and refusal to claim his results)? It was one of the things I wanted to have out in the open before the end of the day. It seems like Dunker is your second strongest scumread. Do you have any thoughts on his interactions with MisaTange. Also, in general I like your catch up and Gork case. He was definitely floating under the radar for much of D1 and someone we wanted to look into more today.
Which scumgame have you played with Drealmer? I quickly skimmed another scumgame of Drealmerz's and his tone seemed very similar to here.
-BV
- The tracker claim is very likely true, and pretty much NAI. Refusal to claim results is fine. I don't want him outing a PR or a VT; if he's not really a tracker we'll find out eventually.
- Interactions with Misa: they didn't really interact that much AFAIC. I don't think Misa/dunk is either particularly likely or particularly unlikely.
- The game I played with drealmer was this one.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Oh. Yeah, missed that.In post 912, Firebringer wrote:
That and misa visited chickadeeIn post 906, Fishythefish wrote:Firebringer shot Misa. So that's not very likely.
Your PGO theory doesn't really work. scum!Firebringerwouldn't even knowMisa visited a PGO, so wouldn't know it was safe to claim the kill.
Why?In post 904, Chickadee wrote:Actually, that one weird post is the reason I find your slot scummy.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
TL;DR:
Gork's response makes me feel less sure about Gork being scum - it makes some good points. However, I still think he's a very likely partner for Misa.
@Gork: I was sad when you asked to replace out halfway through my catchup, and I'm glad you didn't. I'm looking forward to seeing more from you - and either way I hope you get better health-wise.
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
I agree - "fakeclaiming cop as town" is definitely near the top of my theories here. However, I'd feel pretty stupid lynching dunkers if there's a real cop inno on him. I guess we could just ignore the claim unless/until Wheme makes it convincingIn post 964, Wormhole wrote:I think that there's a fairly decent chance he's fakeclaiming cop to back his Dunk townread tbh. Idk, I've never played with him before, but this doesn't seem that scummy *for him*.
IE I don't especially believe the cop claim, but I don't think he's necessarily scummy for claiming it. I don't exactly know how to explain this better tbh.
What do you think about Dunk?
Nothing has changed since my catchup on Dunk - he's weakly scum to me. His posting is mostly stuff I can't read because it doesn't make much sense to me; he clearly doesn't think about this game in the same way I do. The one bit of the case that makes sense is that he *may* have given away that he knew Fykus was town.
Could you summarise why you think Dunk is scum?-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
I don't know wheme; I was thinking about it being a fake-claim as either alignment because a) it looks fake and b) it makes no sense for scum or town.In post 968, Wormhole wrote:
Idk, I just don't think fake-claiming is that scummy for *wheme* in particular. And you haven't expressed a super big interest in lynching dunker right now, so the italics is kinda a weird phrasing for me.In post 966, Fishythefish wrote:I agree - "fakeclaiming cop as town" is definitely near the top of my theories here. However,I'd feel pretty stupid lynching dunkers if there's a real cop inno on him. I guess we could just ignore the claim unless/until Wheme makes it convincing
Nothing has changed since my catchup on Dunk - he's weakly scum to me. His posting is mostly stuff I can't read because it doesn't make much sense to me; he clearly doesn't think about this game in the same way I do.The one bit of the case that makes sense is that he *may* have given away that he knew Fykus was town.
Could you summarise why you think Dunk is scum?
What changed between the above and the bolded?In post 894, Fishythefish wrote:The one bit that sticks out for me is 548. This was clearly written with an assumption that Fykus was town. That is quite likely because dunker knows that for sure.
Case on Dunk (and his predecessor) is discussed in: 150, 252, 533, 545, 593, 694
tldr: Fen had a bizarre progression on Creature and then disappeared when he was under pressure. Dunk wanted to hammer anyone within hammering range, regardless of his read on them, and I think that 548 is actually kinda damning.
--s
The italics - dunkers is both a decent and likely lynch. That means it's important we work out whether cop innos on him are real or not.
Nothing much changed on 548 for me. I think:
- When Wheme made 548, he was assuming Fykus was town.
- That may be because he knew that (and is scum), or for some other reason (which is null). It's hard to say exactly how likely each of those are; it's a decent point against him but certainly not cast-iron.
On the rest of the dunk case:
- I'd totally forgotten Fenraiser when summarising Dunk. Silly me. Yep, Fenraiser's early play was weird, and your post 150 was one that I completely agreed with while rereading. It feels like Fenraiser doesn't really believe in his reads, which is pretty scummy.
- Alas, I don't think wanting to hammer anything that moves is a good scumtell. There's no real scum motivation - particularly when dunkers replaced in, when a Fykus lynch looked very likely.
- BV's meta in 545 is interesting. But it looks like a pretty small sample.
dunk's roleclaim is actually a small towntell for me. Not for the role itself, but because dunk thought it would get him towncred. Town are more likely to think that; because scum would *know* that the role could be scum.
---
On another note: you said you had thoughts on my catch-up but you lost the post. Is there more you haven't said?-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Yeah, so calling it "the Ectomancer slot" and quoting two posts only from Ecto when I've now produced the majority of the slot's content is ridiculous. It feels like I've replaced in to your designated mislynch and you want to ignore that.
1) Ecto's first post you quote is not shade. It's a reasonable question.
2) Ecto's second post is weird, sure. Why would scum post it? If you don't have an answer, it's a weirdtell, not a scumtell.
3) What about my play?-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
On whether scum play like this: I think most don't; I certainly don't. But I think it's a scum reflex to care about your partners, and that newer/less thoughtful/worse scum might have well focus on a buddy. It would be a quite a coincidence if Misa's focus on you was just random; and I think it's very unlikely it's deliberate to set up this line.In post 979, Gorkington wrote:i guess my biggest response to all of the misa stuff in general is i dont really think scum generally plays the way youre implying they play like here? these are a lot of associating posts for her to drop about me. some of them are super blatant.
do you, as scum, focus entirely on your partners? have you seen people do that? i really want to stress this part. i know sometimes you feel like something is scummy, but if you stop and think about how many times youve seen scum do something, you kind of realize that it actually is more of a feeling than an actual general scumtell.
at the end of the day, misa probably wanted to seem like she was generating as much content as she needed to, to look town. she wanted to seem like she was scumhunting, so she picked fire and i's conversation because it honestly does look weird to anyone who doesnt know us and then latched onto it in order to drop a vote on fire and look like she had a read with reasoning behind it. if you think im scum with her because she had awkward interactions with me while doing so, thats totally fine, i just think its a serious stretch to think that misa would have been protecting me, given that i was definitely not in any kind of trouble.
if you feel differently still, wont press the issue, just wanted to make my thoughts clear.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
@Dunk:you say you softed a strong PR to draw a kill? Why, given that your role is actually quite strong?
I think I went from "X is quite likely" to "X may be true here"? That's a fairly small shift which I think mostly just reflects the fact that I have trouble weighing the probability with any exactness. Like, I think there's definitely a 30-70% chance that Dunk's 584 is a scumslip, and beyond that it's really hard to calibrate.In post 980, Wormhole wrote:In post 978, Fishythefish wrote:That may be because he knew that (and is scum), or for some other reason (which is null). It's hard to say exactly how likely each of those are; it's a decent point against him but certainly not cast-iron.
So my point is that in 894, you clearly indicate that you believe that Dunk wrote that post knowing that Fykus is town. In 978 (and the bolded in 966), I kinda feel like you're downplaying the strength of this argument.In post 894, Fishythefish wrote:This was clearly written with an assumption that Fykus was town. That is quite likely because dunker knows that for sure.
You went from 'that is quite likely because Dunker knows that for sure' -> 'he *may* have given away that he knew Dunk is town' -> 'decent point against him but certainly not cast-iron'. You went from agreeing with it to downplaying it's significance, and I'm trying to understand what happened to change your view on this point against Dunk.
Agree on town motivation; I've asked Dunk more about that at the top of this post.In post 980, Wormhole wrote:
I don't understand this point. Why would scum *know* that motion detector could be scum? (And not, say, any other role).In post 978, Fishythefish wrote:dunk's roleclaim is actually a small towntell for me. Not for the role itself, but because dunk thought it would get him towncred. Town are more likely to think that; because scum would *know* that the role could be scum.
I agree that Dunk thought it would get him towncred, which is explicitly why I think it's scummy. I don't see the town motivation for softing there.
Dunk!motion-detector-scumisa scum motion detector, and so knows that motion detector is a completely plausible scum role, and so is less likely to believe that motion detector will get towncred. This pattern of thought isn't totally logical, but I think it's real - I think it's rare that scum think they are going to get massive towncred when claiming their role, because they overestimate the chances of that role being given to scum.
This seems kinda unfair. My main scumread and case is on Gork, which a) is completely new and b) you like. Scumreading me by focusing on my less important reads (which I agree aren't nearly as well thought out or solid) is demanding a really high standard from someone who's replaced in fairly recently.In post 1009, Wormhole wrote:Fish - the tldr is that although I like his content, I feel like it's basically exactly where scum replacing into his slot ought to be pushing, so I'm hesitant to call him town for it; I don't know if the pushes he's making are AI. He could be town trying to get out of a tight spot, but he could well be scum trying to get out of a tight spot too. I feel like he's dancing around his Dunk scumread, and that his scumreads on wheme/mcmenno are slightly oppurtunistic. Like I understand why they're scumreads, but I also feel like if they're town, they're kidna lynchbait-y and are easy pushes. I do like his Gork case though, since me/BV had similar trepidiation about Gork overnight that we had discussed at length
Agree that Wheme and McMenno are lynchbait-y and easy pushes if town. I have serious trouble sorting that sort of player; in a game where I have quite a lot of townreads, they are going to end up in a PoE scum pile, but it's not a pile I'm happy with.
Dancing around my scumread on Dunk - not sure what you mean by this. I think Dunk is hard to read, and that quite a lot of the reason people are voting him is NAI, but there are a couple of decent points as well. He's a better lynch than most, but not as likely scum as Gork.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Why is 659 scum? And why is this the first time you've talked about it?
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
(I'm multiposting to respond to different threads. If you prefer a single post, shout.)
In post 1071, Gorkington wrote:
and why exactly is it not coincidence? like, seriously lets run through all of these interactions and you tell me how it doesnt just read like her commenting on the soup de jour?In post 1068, Fishythefish wrote:On whether scum play like this: I think most don't; I certainly don't. But I think it's a scum reflex to care about your partners, and that newer/less thoughtful/worse scum might have well focus on a buddy. It would be a quite a coincidence if Misa's focus on you was just random; and I think it's very unlikely it's deliberate to set up this line.
Because it would be a very unlikely coincidence. Yes, these all look like Misa commenting on the soup de jour. But there were lots of other soups that Misa left alone. I think her play betrays the fact that she was thinking hard about you.
are you going to address the posts i pulled about mcenno? because just ignoring them, saying mcmenno is lynchbait and reiterating that im scum is going to make me feel a lot more comfortable thinking youre both scum.In post 1069, Fishythefish wrote:Agree that Wheme and McMenno are lynchbait-y and easy pushes if town. I have serious trouble sorting that sort of player; in a game where I have quite a lot of townreads, they are going to end up in a PoE scum pile, but it's not a pile I'm happy with.
This was me responding to something specific from s-Wormhole, who had criticised my scumreads other than you as kind of easy because of the types of players you were on. Wormhole said "Like I understand why they're scumreads, but I also feel like if they're town, they're kidna lynchbait-y and are easy pushes.". I think that's fair given the sort of players McMenno and Wheme are (relatively low content, hard to read); it's not a comment on how they are read.
I haven't actually thought about the recent McMenno stuff at all yet - I'll do so this morning.
its an appallingly bad assessment of smocaine's post. you have to not read smocaine's post entirely to not understand why he posted the votecount, which suggests that ecto wasnt reading or trying to understand anything and was just trying to push something that he thought would look convincing.In post 1070, Fishythefish wrote:Why is 659 scum? And why is this the first time you've talked about it?
i responded to it initially thinking it was shitty. i just reread the game, (which you should know, given that i have been promising a reread/i just made catch-up posts that youve conveniently chosen to not really read at all) and i saw the post again.
I agree it's an appallingly bad assessment of smocaine's post. But where on earth is the scum motivation for it? Weird-and-wrong != scummy.
I totally missed your initial response to 659 - sorry.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Last post catching up with things. Quite a lot has happened recently, and I need to do a proper review of my reads (particularly Gork, dunkers, McMenno); that'll be in the next few hours.
Sure. In PYP, he took much more of a back seat than that; for most of the game I thought he was town with good thoughts who wasn't confident enough to voice them in the thread (we had a hood where he played me like a violin). I don't see any of that here; his early play particularly was really aggressive - both in going after people hard, and in the way he posted. That's dropped off a bit, but he still feels much more assertive here than he did there.In post 1082, Wormhole wrote:@FishyTheFish, can you elaborate more on the differences you found between Drealmerz's scumgame and this game? The game you linked was the same one that I skimmed through. I initially thought Drealmerz was town because his frustration at the beginning of the game towards people townreading Creature seemed genuine but when I skimmed through his scumgame, he had a similarly, frustrated, annoyed tone at the beginning. This doesn't mean he's scum here but it does mean that my initial townread was wrong and that I should be reading him based on other things.
Interesting point about tracker+JK, and it totally makes sense; but I wouldn't have thought most mods would think about that sort of subtlety? But I may be wrong on that.In post 1082, Wormhole wrote: I haven't yet figured out what I think of Drealmerz. I didn't like the way he claimed and expecting the claim to save him and then disappearing felt scummy. I also think tracker + JK is an unlikely combination of roles for town to have because both of them become stronger as the game goes on and scum are lynched. For instance, if we come down to the last scum remaining, we essentially have two cops. There's also some positive feedback in that if the town is winning, it becomes even more likely to win with roles like those (let me know if this doesn't make sense, I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this right).
I think there was a very strong reason for Wheme to claim - it looked like a fakeclaim, and was therefore likely to be fake or weird. It has ended up being weird, and one that needs more thought - so in hindsight I also think it was the right decision. I see no strong reason for dreal to claim, so I don't think those are comparable at all.In post 1082, Wormhole wrote:One of the problems we had about your posting was that you seemed very intent on getting Wheme to claim but not Drealmerz but your logic here makes some sense. But I'd like to hear more on Drealmerz and why this is different from his scumgame.
Yeah, I agree on Wheme being likely town here. It would be an impressive role to make up (with the fakeclaims bit). But I don't think I understand the bolded - it seems to contradict itself? Isn't it consistent to have Wheme's role with a scum tracker whose fakeclaim is town tracker?In post 1082, Wormhole wrote:We haven't discussed Wheme's claim yet but personally I think if he's scum, he pulled it off really well and his behavior makes a lot of sense with the role he claims to have. Wheme's role is pretty odd though and it would mean that scum who fake-claim the roles that the mod gives them are more likely to do well. It would also suggest that the fake-claims they got are not necessarily abilities that they have.For example, if Drealmerz is a scum tracker, then he would most likely get a town tracker fakeclaim. Wheme would get a result that he's a town tracker and Drealmerz would have real results to give. @FishytheFish, what do you think of this: Wheme's role being town doesn't really seem compatible with scum having town-like roles like tracker.From that perspective, it might actually be a good idea to get Drealmerz to claim his results - although this is true only if Wheme is town. Overall, my guess at this point is that both Wheme and Dunker are more likely town than not.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
So, where my reads are right now:
{Wormhole, Chickadee, Firebringer} - town
{Wheme, dreal, Smocaine} - weak town
{Gork, Dunker, McMenno} - scum pool
The main changes to that since my initial reread are:
- Wheme up to probtown for role reasons.
- I'm no longer anywhere near as confident as I was in my Gork read. His response has been pretty good - some points in my case I don't think are scummy any more, and he's feeling town in how he's approaching things right now. In particular, I feel like he's genuinely trying to work out what alignment I am in this argument. I still think he may well be a competent scum player who was exposed by a less skillful buddy.
@Firebringer:please could you answer the question halfway down this post about Gork's meta?
My dunker read is kind of complicated. I think the relevant things are:
- Possible slip in post 584 - moderately scummy
- Softclaiming - mildly scummy. dunk's explanation of drawing the NK is possible, but "scum avoiding the NK" is more likely
- Thinking his claim would get him lots of towncred - mildly townish
- Fenraiser's play - scummy
- Claim backed up by Wheme - I don't actually think this says much about dunk's alignment. But I'm waiting on Wheme to answer a question on that.
Overall, I think dunkers is a good shout for scum.
I'd like to hear what McMenno has to say about Gork's 1018. An early push against Misa, then completely ignoring her for the rest of the day, is a pretty good fit for a partner.
@McMenno- you said early on that you would "keep an eye" on Misa. How did you read on her change during the day?
So to summarise, where I am is:
- If Wheme's role doesn't clear dunkers, I think he's the most likely scum.
- Otherwise, I'd be torn between Gork and McMenno.
VOTE: dunkers-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Scum have a serious incentive to look like they are scumhunting, so they generally pick at things they think are genuinely scummy. So I don't think really weird reasons for reads are a good scumtell. If you disagree, there's probably little more to be said on this one, since I'm not Ecto and can't speak to his reasons here.In post 1088, Gorkington wrote:
scum dont have the same incentive that town does to try and actually understand whether someone/something is scummy or not.fishy wrote:I agree it's an appallingly bad assessment of smocaine's post. But where on earth is the scum motivation for it? Weird-and-wrong != scummy.
ecto basically had to not read the post, just see that smocaine posted an old votecount without trying to understand the context at all and then case him/vote him. its really the casing that makes me feel uncomfortable. if he had just asked him why he had done that, then thats potentially just a misunderstanding that he wants to clarify, but instead it just comes across as trying to generate busy content/push a mislynch.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
1) I think that's actually quite a good question to Wheme; it's asking why Wheme doesn't care who the lynch is. Not following up on it is clearly NAI for someone who flaked from the game!In post 1091, Smocaine wrote:
I quoted 2/3rds of the man's iso. If I had a 'designated mislynch' it would be Dreal given my set up.In post 1066, Fishythefish wrote:Yeah, so calling it "the Ectomancer slot" and quoting two posts only from Ecto when I've now produced the majority of the slot's content is ridiculous. It feels like I've replaced in to your designated mislynch and you want to ignore that.
1) Ecto's first post you quote is not shade. It's a reasonable question.
2) Ecto's second post is weird, sure. Why would scum post it? If you don't have an answer, it's a weirdtell, not a scumtell.
3) What about my play?
1) The question paints Wheme in a scummy light regardless of his answer, and Ecto didn't press Wheme for an answer to it despite him ignoring it.
1.5) The phrasing here looks like someone approaching the game from a scum mindset.In post 622, Ectomancer wrote:ITT I overpromise and underdeliver.
Let's try a different strategy! Read nothing! Vote everything!
WhemeStar talk to me about why you arrived at the point where you feel that saying "Let's just kill someone"was an advisable post?
2) Scum that was struggling to produce content saw an opportunity to 'jump' on something? It's also off that he goes from saying "vote everyone" in 622 to making a large post to only fos me. His play is too cautious for my liking.
3) I honestly haven't focused most of your content, but it didn't scream town outside of the volume of words in your posts. Would you say that's outside of your scumrange?
1.5) Fair enough. I don't see it, but nothing to say here.
2) See post above.
3) Volume of posting is pretty NAI for me. Certainly after replacing in I'm going to be pretty damn active while settling in.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
1) What contradiction?
2) Typo - should have been "scum avoiding getting lynched".
3) See below.
4) He probably wouldn't. That's not what I think is happening.
Of your four scenarios - I think 3 and 4 are totally possible. Why can't a motion detector be scum? It's like a weak PR detector - not a strong role, but not implausible at all.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
My activity from here on is going to drop off; I'm much busier IRL starting today. The hectic catch-up phase is over, so that should be fine. I'll still have a decent chunk of time for this game almost every day, and don't expect to fall behind.
Yeah, but does your role rule out:In post 1103, WhemeStar wrote:If I target scum I get their fakeclaim
1) Dunk is a scum motion detector
2) His fakeclaim is town motion detector
Because I just don't see why you'd give any other fakeclaim to a role which could totally be town or scum.
I mean, if Wheme's role really does confirm dunk as town, it seems to me that every role which is verifiable and NAI would need to be town as well. Take dreal for example - no way is the mod giving a scum tracker a fakeclaim other than tracker; that would be super strange and they wouldn't use it. Are we saying that means dreal has to be town?-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
^ I'll respond to this more fully later, but the difference I saw is in how confrontational dreal is, doing things like very directly accusing people of being scum - not in levels of scumhunting.
But I'll reread this; because it was definitely something that struck me very strongly early on, and I'm not 100% sure how well it persists later on.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Sure. I think the best way to put is this:In post 1133, Wormhole wrote:
This is his ISO in the game you are talking about and I didn't notice any significant difference in how confrontational he is or felt that his accusations were more direct here than there. More specifics would help.In post 1130, Fishythefish wrote:^ I'll respond to this more fully later, but the difference I saw is in how confrontational dreal is, doing things like very directly accusing people of being scum - not in levels of scumhunting.
But I'll reread this; because it was definitely something that struck me very strongly early on, and I'm not 100% sure how well it persists later on.
-BV
- In Pick Your Poision, drealmerz talked a lot about himself, and a fair bit about why he had certain reads. But he almost never addressed his suspects directly; there's very little like "You're scum!" in his ISO. Along the same lines, he calls people (or their actions) "scummy" a lot, but rarely calls them scum.
- Here, he's much more direct. He declares that people are scum, sometimes straight at them. It's a much more confrontational approach.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
The argument against me here can (I think) be summarised as:
1) I'm a very good fit for scum with McMenno yesterday
2) I'm in a small PoE pool.
Honestly, it's hard to argue with. 2) is just true. The only thing I'd say about 1) is this: I'm just not that bad at playing scum . I wouldn't let a doomed partner drag me down, and wailing at universal townreads like dunkers is never good play for scum.
I get it if I get lynched here, though. If I do, please:
- Think more about whether dunkers's claim actually makes him town. Becausethe mod has said it doesn't.
- Look at Gork more. He's the person who I really think should be in your small scumpools and isn't.
---
What does gladiate mean?-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
I think I may as well claim; because I have a role that might mean I'm best left alive today, and we have at least one quickhammerer around.
I amShy. If I'm ever visited by two players in the same night, I automatically die.
Right now, it would be beneficial if I could die without wasting a lynch or vig shot. I think we only know of one role who could visit me - Chickadee. If there's another player willing to visit me, I think we should:
- Not lynch me today (hint: lynch dunk instead)
- Kill me off tonight
Obviously, I'd then be lynched tomorrow if I'm alive for any reason.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Nope - that's my role. I forgot about the bread part because it's so very irrelevant to the game . My bread is
suikerbrood. The flavour of my role is that as a mixture of sweet bread and savoury shape, I'm kind of a loner and not comfortable around other breads.
Well, I guess I now know what gladiate is from context. If that makes it me vs Wheme, I'll be lynched - and frankly from every POV except mine that's the right decision. Please don't treat dunkers as conftown when I'm gone.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
@s-Wormhole:
- I agree my reads have been malleable; they've changed with new information - both stuff that's happened (Gork's responses to me) and stuff that's been pointed out to me (more of the case on dunkers). I really, really don't think that's a scumtell. That one on Gork bussing today did make me do a bit of a facepalm; I made that first post thinking that I might get lynched really quite quickly, and hadn't yet properly updated my reads for the scum flip.
- On dunkers being a universal townread: I think practically everyone except me thinks Wheme's investigation is strong evidence that dunkers is town. Nothing changed between 1189 and 1192; I think dunkers is scum, and pretty much everyone else thinks he's town.
- I think this would be a pretty crappy claim for scum to make! It ensures that, one way or another, I die by tomorrow. Since there's only one scum left, PR fishing would therefore be pretty pointless.
- Yeah, it's probably 8-1, and that's a great position. But it seems silly to make it worse deliberately.
Oh, so you can; missed that. Cool; so if I don't get lynched today Chick and dunkers should visit me to kill me off.In post 1197, Dunkerdoodles wrote:
umIn post 1192, Fishythefish wrote:I think I may as well claim; because I have a role that might mean I'm best left alive today, and we have at least one quickhammerer around.
I amShy. If I'm ever visited by two players in the same night, I automatically die.
Right now,it would be beneficial if I could die without wasting a lynch or vig shot.I think we only know of one role who could visit me - Chickadee. If there's another player willing to visit me, I think we should:
- Not lynch me today (hint: lynch dunk instead)
- Kill me off tonight
Obviously, I'd then be lynched tomorrow if I'm alive for any reason.
i can visit you
so you literally contradicted yourself in the same post.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Well done town. Thanks to everyone for playing, and the mod for running a very smooth game.
The setup seems heavily town sided - there are some very strong roles in there, every townie is a PR, and the scumteam is basically vanilla. We were also roundly outplayed in the thread, but I think even a more balanced game skill-wise would have resulted in an easy town win.
For my part, I was actually playing to get scumread at the end of Day 2 (but not before). By then, I'd decided our only chance was a cop investigation on me, as I was a Godfather (which looks like it didn't actually do anything?). Similarly, my claim today was a desperate attempt to survive a day and draw PRs onto me.
One unfortunate thing - scum roles (including mine)didhave the same fakeclaim as role. So if Wheme had investigated me, he'd have got a "clear" in exactly the same way he did for dunkers.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
I'm not sure I see how banana bread is that strong? An unblockable kill every other night is not *that* big a deal. Particularly when you compare it with things like vig and nightskip, which are guaranteed to improve the usual lynch/kill cycle in town's favour (which particularly hurts here, where there are lots of people who can be confirmed or nearly confirmed town)-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
I’m not sure I see how strongman’s fakeclaim was that solid... isn’t it just a cop claim?
Yeah, those three were the roles I was thinking of as unlynchable. 3 unlynchable roles, and a few more that could end up that way, seems a lot to me. This may just be the shifting meta - I haven’t played much in a while, and I understand towns have more power than in the old days.-
-
Fishythefish Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4362
- Joined: November 2, 2008
- Location: England
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.