Mini 524: Short and Sweet Mafia 2 - Game Over

[ibaesha]

Ibby's latest favorite is a story about witches. Mystical and dark, the story leads Ibby through the enthralling interactions of The Coven. Their desires, their fears, and their obsessive devotion have been revealed to her, but there is still one question left. Will the strictures formed to protect and preserve the Coven prevail, or will the desire for a return to the power of the Past destroy a circle that has been drawn for centuries?

With no sequel, the fate of the Coven must be decided before Ibby finishes the book! Surely that won't take very long. At least no longer than three months, right? Right!

Replacement mod: petroleumjelly. Please send him your role PMs and previous actions.

Still Practicing the Craft

• Elmo,
  Hedgewitch
  , survived
  
• Porochaz,
  Sister of the Blood
  , survived,
  (Mason)
  
  
• Bookitty
  rp Jester
  ,
  Hedgewitch
  , survived
  
• Samruc,
  Sister of the Blood
  , survived,
  (Mason)
  
  
• Yosarian2
  rp TheStranger
  ,
  Hedgewitch
  , survived

No longer Practicing

• Antithesis,
  Neophyte
  , killed by a nasty little scratch Day 1
  (Weaponsmith)
  
  
• skitzer,
  Hedgewitch
  , ritually lynched Day 1
  
• The Fonz,
  Hedgewitch
  , killed by massive blood loss Night 1
  
• Ether,
  Hedgewitch
  , killed by a nasty little scratch Day 2
  
• Farside22,
  Sister of the Blood
  , ritually lynched Day 2
  (Mafia)
  
  
• Setael
  rp Kate
  ,
  Sister of the Blood
  , killed by a nasty little scratch Day 3
  (Mafia)
  
  
• chaotic_diablo,
  Black Widow
  , ritually lynched Day 3
  (Day Serial Killer)

To avoid whatever:

You are a Hedgewitch. You deal in herbs, simples and minor charms. As far as witches go, you're nothing special, so all you have is your wit and your vote. Your success will be found in eliminating all who present a threat to the Coven.

Vote Counts

• Vote Count One
  
• Vote Count Two

[ibaesha]

Please read the rules carefully, as there may be alterations from the standard sets of rules. Most of these rules have been stolen and edited from so many places that it would take too long to reference all of the sources. Special rules are high-lighted in blue.

Rules On what is Allowable:

[01] This is only a game, and I expect all players to remain somewhat civil (although I understand you are essentially a crazy, lynching mob). I will not accept excessive abuse upon freedom of speech: obscenity, profanity, libel, and fighting words will not be tolerated, and if you push it, Ibby (or maybe PJ, if I'm feeling generous) reserves the right to have you replaced. In other words, be respectful to all players, as well as myself and my co-mod.
[02]

Do not talk outside of this thread, unless your role PM explicitly says you may do so, and even then, you are restricted to night-time for all out-of-thread conversation.

[03] Do not edit or delete your posts in any way, shape, or form. Once you have posted something, it is there for good, unless I find reason to alter or delete your post myself.
[04] Do not quote your role PMs in any way, shape, or form. This also applies to night conversations. You may, however, paraphrase your PM at any time, but if you go too far, I again reserve the right to either replace you or to modkill you should the situation warrant.
[05] Do not post in invisible text, excessively small text, or use [ color = black ] tags.
[06] You may request mod-prods, replacements, clarifications, and votecounts from me directly in the thread, but please precede such with a bolded

Mod: So-and-so

so that I will be able to answer you as promptly as possible.
[07] Once I have officially posted that you are dead, then

you are dead

. Do not post any relevant information to the game whatsoever. You are, however, allowed a typical “Bah!” post of some sort.
[08] You may talk during twilight about anything you wish.
[09] Do not question my decisions in-thread: if you have a problem with me, take it to Private Messages. You may, of course, post problems you see with my votecounts, but that’s about as far as I’ll allow things.

[10] Players who are deemed to be purposely spamming the thread for the purpose of making everybody lose due to the 25 page limit [see Technical Rule #4] will, at mod discretion, be replaced/modkilled and posts may be deleted.

[11] Do not post vote counts in blue – that is left for me and my co-mod to use to show that a vote count is official. Players who attempt to impersonate the mod will be punished.

[12] You are allowed to have fun, and in fact, I heartily encourage it! This is a game! Play hard, play fair, and enjoy yourself.

Technical Rules

[01] Each day the town must decide on a lynch. Once a majority has been reached on a player, that player will be lynched, regardless of any subsequent unvoting.
[02] To vote for somebody, please use bold tags. For example,

Vote: PJ the Maleficent

.
[03] If you wish to unvote, I would appreciate a formal bold

Unvote: Ibby the Magnificent

, although this will not be required.

[04] This game has a firm deadline of three months – once that time hits,

everybody

loses. Furthermore, the game has a firm page limit of 25 pages – go over this, and

everybody

loses. To give the town maximum posts, vote counts will be edited into each 25th post (the top of each regular page). Players are allowed to post their own vote counts, but

only post counts in blue

will be official.

[05] This game

will not

have any other deadlines whatsoever, except for nights. It is your job to set your own deadlines if you plan on finishing given days in a timely fashion.

[06] You may vote no-lynch if you wish. A majority voting for no-lynch will end the day, and the game will progress directly into night. To do this, simply

Vote: No-Lynch

.
[07] Nights will last a maximum of 4 real-time days. If you have not sent me a night-choice by that time (should you have one), I will consider you as choosing that you do not wish to use your action.

The faster you send in your night-choices, the faster the game can get back on-track.

[08] If you feel that you may not be able to post in-thread for a period of 48 hours or longer, please say so in-thread and send me a PM as warning. If I find it necessary, I will have you replaced, but I would much rather keep all players who sign up for any of my games.
[09] Any and all of these rules are subject to change at my discretion.

[Jester]

All confirmations are in, that was quick! It is now Day 1.

May I extend my personal welcome to all of you who are new to my beloved Mafiascum. I hope you enjoy the game. Now let's get down to business, I have a book to finish!

12 alive, 7 to lynch

Looks like we're up and running, so I'll make the first post. I joined this game because it fits my play style rather well: I tend to make single long posts every third or fourth day. I also don't play mafia on weekends unless the game is in a critical stage.

Both of those things said, I'd like to make a modest proposal. In a normal game, lynch-all-lurkers would be an anti-town strategy. In this game, I think lynch-all-lurkers is going to be a matter of survival. Three months sounds like a long time, but I've seen games die for four-week stretches because someone lurked for a week, got called on it, posted something inane, lurked for another week, and then asked to be replaced. Then everyone sits around waiting for one or two replacements before they'll start playing again.

I think that's an excellent way for everyone one to lose this game. We can't afford to have that scenario happen even once.

So. Anyone who doesn't post

real

content, frequently, and every single post, we stomp flat and take our chances. Thoughts?

[farside22]

That is interesting theory Jester. I really have played the short and sweat game before so this is all new to me. If we wait for the lurkers however aren't we at risk of losing the game for waiting too long? Seems that you wait for people to respond then get people to say something, then lurk around. I don't know how long would it take for someone to be called on this?
Sorry to sound like a newbie, but this is just my second game on this site.

[Porochaz]

Both of those things said, I'd like to make a modest proposal. In a normal game, lynch-all-lurkers would be an anti-town strategy. In this game, I think lynch-all-lurkers is going to be a matter of survival. Three months sounds like a long time, but I've seen games die for four-week stretches because someone lurked for a week, got called on it, posted something inane, lurked for another week, and then asked to be replaced. Then everyone sits around waiting for one or two replacements before they'll start playing again.

I think that's an excellent way for everyone one to lose this game. We can't afford to have that scenario happen even once.

So. Anyone who doesn't post

real

content, frequently, and every single post, we stomp flat and take our chances. Thoughts?

I disagree with your strategy a bit. In that this is quite likely to bring out trigger happy townies which I find to be more dangerous than lurkers. You say you post every 3rd/4th day. So I recommend we have a 3/4 day prodding limit. If you dont post within 4 days you get prodded. This game should be kept moving at all times so there should be plenty of content to make decent posts. Everyone who signed up for this should realise that there going to have to post regularly so this shouldnt be a problem. Also I request that all players don't post things like A. I have just finished reading the thread and I will post tomorrow or B. Anything that tells us you'll be away. If you are going to disappear for a couple of days

PM the mod

. Now lets get on with this game...

If we are going to do a random stage then I suggest we talk strategies on how we will do this and place a random vote as well at the same time. The random votes will create discussion later on and the strategy planning now will help us later on and may also lead to discussion.

So

random vote:Kate

due to her being in Lost.

(also dont use the dice otherwise you will have to post twice.)[/dice]

[Antithesis]

Only your second game Farside? Oh boy, this is my first. Hope we both do well.... err unless you are scum, then you can die!! Heh

Jester what you wrote makes sense... based upon the older games I have read through. There often seems spots where a game will stall and replacements get called in and the town sometimes loses momentum, but I am not sure how it will play out, especially during day one, when accusations seem to change from post to post. Someone may want to lurk through day one to get a grasp on the game and the people in it, or they might be like Farside and myself... relative newbies with little understanding of more experienced players' styles and what not.

I guess what I am saying is, being new, I had kind of hoped to start this game out by keeping my head down and only making short comments on things that required direct action, such as votes or affirming/denying role claims, for example. What you suggest seems reasonable, but I'd like to point out that it requires me (at least) to play at a level I am not certain I can maintain, given my lack of experience. And I don't want to be penalized for that.

[deepthought]

ib, you didn't send me a PM telling me the game was live. You horrible, horrible mod.

Anywho.

So. Anyone who doesn't post

real

content, frequently, and every single post, we stomp flat and take our chances. Thoughts?

I think that overstates the point. One thing I hope ibaesha might consider doing is including the overall post limit alongside the page limit, because it'd be a more precise measure of where things are and how much panicking makes sense. For my part, I assume there are 24 posts or so on a page and that gives us a hair under 500 to play a 12-person mini. Seems a little low, but doable without much effort as long as people don't start posting one-liners.

Mod response: The game must be completed before reaching post #500.

vote farside22

for having an animated avatar. And also for being a girl. And living in California. I think it's a pretty open-and-shut case.

[Samruc]

I guess I'll kick it off with one of these:

vote: Franzie

Although I feel that random voting, the standard ice-breaker of Mafia maybe isn't quite as needed in this game as it use to be. Anyway, good to see everyone contributing. I'm going to enjoy a game where literally every post counts.

I don't think the time limit (three months) should be a big problem, if we all commit to a rate of approximately one or two days per post. Looking out for the post count will be more important, but I agree that it's doable.

Another thing we might discuss is how long each day can take. Day one is the hardest, with limited information, so that one usually takes a bit more time and posts. As we probably are going to play 4-5 days in-game, I'd say it's reasonable to let D1 take up ~1/3 of pages and time, which means 6-7 pages, 1 month. (Can't imagine us going on for one month, but anyhow...)

[Elmo]

Hi, all. Well, this is nice and active!

Jester

: Elmo likes stomping! Waagh! But that's too much stomping for somefink as suttle as dis. (Perhaps a good scum strategy would be to paint this thread red, so it goes faster. Okay, enough now.)

Lurkers will kill the game dead. Lynching lurkers is extreme, but we have to be harder on people than normal. It's situational, but I am perfectly okay with making ultimatums to people that they will post more, or ask to be replaced, or they're lynched. I am much, much less afraid of trigger happy townies, although that's obviously a risk. I think we should collectively settle on some kind of policy for what an acceptable minimum is.

I think random votes are probably a good way forward, albeit we shouldn't rely on them entirely and should try and get 'real' discussion started as soon as possible. We can't afford to stay in random voting for as long as some normal games do.

We're getting stuff edited into posts, including vote counts, so no mod posts, so 25 posts per page = 500 - 2 = 498 total. 498 / 12 = little over 41 posts per person. 41 posts over ~90 days means we can each post once every two days without any fear of going over the limit, although some parts may be faster or slower than average. I think the bigger problem will actually be getting the game to completion, that is, moving through the days. We need to be perhaps more decisive than usual. Many of the comments in the first game are likely to be instructive. I don't think it's a great problem, but we should avoid blathering if at all possible.

The original Short & Sweet ran from Aug 16th to Sep 29th over 8 page for a town win. So I'm fairly hopeful there. Day 1 is likely to be hardest and longest, I believe that's tradition. I'd like to get it done within a month, although I'm open to suggestions, since I don't have a good sense of how long it "should" take.

I am surprised that people are playing this game as their first, unless you mean first non-newbie - I'd advise signing up for a newbie or something, as well as reading some completed games if possible. We're most likely not going to be able to take the time to teach in depth, but there are enough resources already there for you to give a good account of yourselves, I think.

Antithesis

: If you're town, you shouldn't be worried about long posts. In general, they will tend to make people's read of you more accurate, so it's actually safer for you to post more content as town, imo. Definitely in this game go for the longer posts as opposed to only making short comments. Certainly, in general, people want to know what you think, and keeping your head down is going to do more harm than good - if you're town, the worst case is that you're wrong. Try not to be afraid of looking suspicious, it's generally more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion.

deepthought

: Vote counts are edited in, so we get 25 posts per page. More content!

I have PM'd Ibaesha and we can ask for prods either by PM or in the thread. So, PMs, please, unless you happen to be posting anyway. That means prodding people is not much of an issue, which is good.

Also, let's start the speculation on the setup early: 2 scum? 3 scum? SK? Power roles? Godfather?

First

vote

:

deepthought

for voting someone for being a girl >:P

Most of my posts are going to be long. That fits the thread, but I apologise in advance - if you have trouble wading through, please say in your next post and I'll try and write a summary for you. Also I don't expect posts this long from everyone, it's just I'm extremely contentful when I really get going.

Also, we can't do EBWOP (edit by way of post, posting a small post containing a correction) here, so try to at least give it a once over in preview before hitting the red button. I know I'm certain to find some obvious problem right after I post now, but at least you can learn from my mistakes.

[chaotic_diablo]

Jester's idea is viable only as an information gaining tool early game. After Day Two, it's only a hindrance since it only serves as a cover up for scum.

"Random" Vote chaotic_diablo

Also, let's start the speculation on the setup early: 2 scum? 3 scum? SK? Power roles? Godfather?

Here's what I find suspicious.
1. We generally should speculate set-up after Night One so as that we can speculate more accurately with the night kills to match up.
2. Speculating Day One will only cause potential power roles to subtly reveal themselves when they give their opinion. While this can apply to scum as well, it's not likely we can support a lynch on such little basis. It only serves to give scum information we don't want them to have.
3. You didn't include your own opinion. Either you're waiting to tell us at a later date or you're waiting to see those subtle signs mentioned in #2.

FOS Elmo

[Franzie]

Let's play a game to see who gets my initial vote. This will tell us all a lot about everyone, right off the bat.

You're walking through the woods in the daytime when you come to a fork. The left fork seems to take you through a brighter part of the woods, with a little bit of climbing involved because there seem to be a few trees down. The right fork is more densely packed with trees, letting less of the sunlight through, and the path is slightly overgrown. Which way do you take?

Also, basic math, so this post isn't entirely useless - Assume there's 12 of us, and the mod posts once per page. That means, if everyone posts once per day, we're going to last about 40 days. This 2 month thing is a very bad mindset to get into, because we won't make it that far.

And

vote: Samruc

- blatant OMGUS.

[skitzer]

This game requires very long and succinct posts. I see so far that we have much explanation of the game mechanics, and therefore, I feel that is a good way to start the game. Everyone should make well, meditated, intended decisions, so that nothing bad happens. Don't do very blubberish or random decisions. I really feel that random votes are OK at this point, as long as you put your thoughts on the works of the game in the same post. That's about all I have for advice.

For now:

vote: elmo

Your speculation seems a tad bit fishy. Also, it is highly unlikely that there is a serial killer in this game, IMO.

[Porochaz]

I have to say that short posts with content are more important than long posts of nothing. In fact it would be preferable. Skitz, why do you think his spec is fishy? Also why do you think theres not an SK in this game?

[Antithesis]

Well based off of my memory of reading through the first “Short & Sweet” the game consisted of a total of 3 scum and 9 town. I don’t recall an SK role, and I don’t see any reason why Ibaesha would change the format that dramatically, especially considering how the first game eventually lived up to its title. Then again, that game started at night. So maybe some roles have been changed.




That said, I don’t think we should operate completely as if S&S2 will have the same role layout, but until I see evidence otherwise, I am going to assume that it does.

Also, it took almost five complete pages in the first S&S to end the first day, but *assuming* again, roles are similar the total numbers of players can go down 3 per day/night cycle (1 lynch, 1 scum kill, 1 Vig kill). That then leaves 9 instead of 12 gamers remaining, with, hopefully, a better idea s to who is who, add another day/night cycle and potentially 3 more kills and you are down to 6 posters and plenty of space remaining to finish any further debates.

Therefore I am not really worried about space for posts so much as finding scum to lynch day one.

My problem here is deciding who to vote for to get information… but hopefully not expose an important townie role in the process. I trust you veteran gamers understand my dilemma, and that, maybe, one of you have even anticipated it and decided to take the first step. By this I mean I am thinking that Chaotic Diablo voted for himself because he can satisfy both conditions, he can help us gather some info while at the same time not exposing any important town roles to scum. I really, really hope that’s what he is attempting to do.

So, I’ll play along

Vote Chaotic Diablo

In addition, since I am trying to do the long post thing, let me add I agree with Chaotic Diablo that speculating early on roles only helps Scum… I am currently reading through another Mafia game at another site where the town gave up a cop and a multivoter to nightkills because of speculation and poor discipline. And seriously Elmo, if you are going to talk about not having the time to “teach” us newbies how to play, you might want to refrain from stuff like this,

Also, let's start the speculation on the setup early: 2 scum? 3 scum? SK? Power roles? Godfather?

It does seem kind of suspicious.

[farside22]

I disagree with your strategy a bit. In that this is quite likely to bring out trigger happy townies which I find to be more dangerous than lurkers. You say you post every 3rd/4th day. So I recommend we have a 3/4 day prodding limit. If you dont post within 4 days you get prodded. This game should be kept moving at all times so there should be plenty of content to make decent posts. Everyone who signed up for this should realise that there going to have to post regularly so this shouldnt be a problem. Also I request that all players don't post things like A. I have just finished reading the thread and I will post tomorrow or B. Anything that tells us you'll be away. If you are going to disappear for a couple of days

PM the mod

. Now lets get on with this game...

If we are going to do a random stage then I suggest we talk strategies on how we will do this and place a random vote as well at the same time. The random votes will create discussion later on and the strategy planning now will help us later on and may also lead to discussion.

So

random vote:Kate

due to her being in Lost.

(also dont use the dice otherwise you will have to post twice.)[/dice]

I couldn't help but agree with Porochaz comments on how best to play this game. Much apprieciated.
Also I did what Antithesis did and looked at the previous game and noted there was 3 mafia members and the rest are townie. That is the theory I will be going with till we know more. For now out of everyone who posted something Jester's idea seemed less then appealing and is not only cause for trigger happy townies, but time that could be eaten away easily playing the waiting game.

Random vote:

TheStranger

[Kate]

Well, I agree that long posts are good, but there really are no points in long posts with no points. By long posts, you should say everything you really need to say, knowing you probably won't post again until after tomarro, then after that, you can post all your new, and old, thoughts. But if you don't really have much to say, you don't have to post a long post. Just so you say all you need to in less posts. Blech, that seems confusing.

I don't exactly see the point in randon votes, and think they're pretty stupid, but if they'll help us later I'll vote.

Vote: Porochaz,

for not being in anything.

I don't really see anything scummy in trying to figure out our set-up, maybe not very smart, but not scummy. I don't see anything wrong with that, and after night one, we can re-speculate. If I'm wrong, somebody please tell me why.

We're getting stuff edited into posts, including vote counts, so no mod posts, so 25 posts per page = 500 - 2 = 498 total. 498 / 12 = little over 41 posts per person. 41 posts over ~90 days means we can each post once every two days without any fear of going over the limit, although some parts may be faster or slower than average.

But not everone will be here the whole game. People will get nightkilled and lynched, which will give those of us left more posts, right?

[deepthought]

Ooh, this looks fun. I'll play.

You're walking through the woods in the daytime when you come to a fork. The left fork seems to take you through a brighter part of the woods, with a little bit of climbing involved because there seem to be a few trees down. The right fork is more densely packed with trees, letting less of the sunlight through, and the path is slightly overgrown. Which way do you take?

I walk back to my SUV and haul ass through the right fork, killing hapless wildlife with reckless abandon and slowly suffocating the atmosphere.

[Elmo]

This is my first closed game, so I'm curious about the setup - I've only played one non-newbie before, so I don't know what is "standard" for minis. I don't think it's possible (or clever to attempt) to figure out the exact setup, but I was interested in general terms. I also thought it was a good way to get conversation going. I'm surprised that both skitzer and Antithesis think that speculation about the setup is suspicious and then do it themselves. One or the other works, not both - either there's something more specific about my speculation that's bad, or you're contradicting yourselves. What's up with that?

Saying "I think X is suspicious" is not enough. You need to say

why

X is suspicious, like chaotic_diablo does in point 2. Otherwise, no-one else can check your logic, and the person in question can't reply to you. If he hadn't posted, I would be asking him what they he suspicious, and we would have lost a couple posts worth of exchange.

skitzer

&

Antithesis

: I don't know if you both think exactly the same, but I can't answer you until you say.

chaotic_diablo

: As I understand it, Jester's idea isn't about getting info, it's about stopping lurkers. I don't agree with it, but I don't see that it serves as a cover for the scum. If we agree (for example) anyone not posting for five days gets lynched, either the scum are acting exactly like townies, or they're obviously quicklynching.

I agree we shouldn't speculate on power roles in detail - I really meant it as a yes/no type of question, in relation to how many scum there were. Four scum and no power roles is probably imbalanced, for example. But yes, in retrospect it's probably a bad idea. I don't have any opinion on the setup because I've never played a closed game before, so I don't really know what to expect. It would be very useful to know if there were likely two or three scum, for example.

franzie

: Right fork, I guess. We're getting stuff edited in, by the way, so 25 per page. What "2 month thing"? Why the OMGUS?

skitzer

: Long

and

succinct posts? I agree with Porochaz that content is the thing, and I'll echo him in asking why you don't think there's an SK here.

Porochaz

: I agree, content is what matters. But it is easier to post a long contentful post than a short one, and what exactly 'content' looks like is pretty nebulous. So I half-agree. Loving the sig, by the way.

Antithesis

: What information does his self-voting give us? I dislike it precisely because it doesn't give us any. Apparently he always does that, so I don't mind it as much, but I don't think it's a good move. I can say he's probably not saying he's not a power role, and it would definitely be anti-town to say that, because it narrows down the people who

could

be power roles for the mafia. Given that power roles are trying to stay hidden, if they're doing their job then you can't avoid the risk of voting for them at the start. I have a feeling the setup hasn't changed unrecognisably - 3 scum sounds reasonable - but the first game started with a night, so I don't think it's identical. I also don't want to rely on having a vig in terms of player count.

What I said was: we (collectively) don't have the time to teach in depth. I meant exactly that - the faster newbie games take about a month, and most people seem need a couple to get a handle on things. We're also post-limited, so that prevents us from doing much back-and-forth. So, although you all seem fairly bright to me, it is probably still a good idea to make use of what's available and intended for new players, because it will probably save us time and posts here. I'm not being patronising - I found reading completed newbie games very helpful, and I wouldn't have wanted to go straight into this game when I started out. I'm also not saying I'm qualified to teach; people much more experienced than me volunteer to do that in newbies.

Kate

: Yeah, I realised that after I posted. I don't want to rely on days being a certain length, though, so I'm probably posting once every two days for the immediate future, and probably all of day 1. I guess what happens then depends on how many are alive at the dawn of day 2. In perspective, if we're getting day 1 done in a quarter of the posts, we've got about ten each (for me, eight after this post). I'd rather be in a position with posts to burn, personally.

[chaotic_diablo]

I don't really see anything scummy in trying to figure out our set-up, maybe not very smart, but not scummy. I don't see anything wrong with that, and after night one, we can re-speculate. If I'm wrong, somebody please tell me why.

Everyone has information on their own role. As a result, everyone should know at least 1/12 of the roles in the game. If we speculate, then there is a risk that someone will contribute that 1/12 by "guessing" that such a role exists in the game. Even though it's a "guess", there has to be some sort of reasoning behind it. Scum may be able to trace the reasoning back to a person's role. Speculating later prevents that tracing back.

This is my first closed game, so I'm curious about the setup - I've only played one non-newbie before, so I don't know what is "standard" for minis. I don't think it's possible (or clever to attempt) to figure out the exact setup, but I was interested in general terms.

There are two types of Mini: Normal and Theme. Theme Mini Games can have roles ranging from a guy who can shoot crap out of his eyes or an alien that can spontaneously combusts. Generally, theme games don't play like normal game and have certain key elements changed such as the day/night cycle, winning conditions, or dead reviving. In this case, the time and page limit. There may be other changes but we won't be able to find them until later.

As I understand it, Jester's idea isn't about getting info, it's about stopping lurkers. I don't agree with it, but I don't see that it serves as a cover for the scum. If we agree (for example) anyone not posting for five days gets lynched, either the scum are acting exactly like townies, or they're obviously quicklynching.

Jester's idea is to lynch people who are useless. Scum are more than likely happy to contribute to a cause that lynches town. As a result, we can look back on how people respond to the bandwagon/lynch and point out anything scummy that they do. Usually, we just bandwagon to near lynch but not actually lynch the person.
It serves for a cover up for scum because it distracts us from the real issues. Since failing to post content contributes to both a scum and town loss, there is really no basis as to why lurking or spamming is scummy. Our lynches would be better placed on people who are scum.

[Antithesis]

Here is my thinking on this game. We have a set amount of space and a set amount of time to complete this, otherwise it ends in a draw (I guess thats what it would be called).

Where I think I differ with Elmo, as per my speculation... I am speculating about the allottment of roles, i.e., their general number, and I am not asking anything about specific roles. Day one, I don't want to know about any specific townie roles, because for me to know that it would have to be revealed here.. for scum to see.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking, but I thought you really wanted us to talk about specific roles, and that can only benefit scum. If you wanted to discuss just general numbers, well I will repeat what I said before, I think this game will resemble the last one... 3 scum 9 Town.

This assumption of mine, influenced only by the layout of the first S&S, leads me to believe the following:

That Scum have to be active. I say this because they have the same deadline we townies do, but they have *probably* three times the numbers to remove in the same timeframe.

If scum want to win and beat the deadline, they are going to have to be active, my bet would be.. active from the very beginning of the game.

If that is the case, odds are some if not all the scum will be active themselves, especially when pushing votes. Maybe not day one, but soon. They need three town lynches and three night kills to even the numbers (again assuming its 3 vs 9) if they lurk too much, they will lose.

So yeah, targeting lurkers when its scum who have the biggest incentive in this game not to lurk, and talking about specific roles without even trying to force a roleclaim are all bad moves for town, imho.

As to why I voted for Chaotic, because he self voted, he put himself out there. And I guess I should just come out and say what i was hinting at, yeah self voting can be bad for town, but, assuming Chaotic is town, maybe it would start a bandwagon.

Now, as stated before, scum need the town to mis-lynch three days, along with three night kills. Maybe if they felt there was a chance to start a serious wagon on a townie, they'll jump in.

What I think Chaotic wanted was to see who all would also vote on him, as that might make good group of FoS. And maybe from that group we could apply some pressure and learn something more substantial. Yeah, I know thats alot of assuming on my part, that A) Chaotic is even Town, B) that he has a vanilla role and C) that if at least A were true that might stir up scum to start a full blown wagon, but that is what I thought he was doing.


Now that I have spelled out my reasoning we can just go back to the entirely random thing again.

unvote Chaotic Diablo

TheStranger has been prodded.

[Samruc]

We have a set amount of space and a set amount of time to complete this, otherwise it ends in a draw (I guess thats what it would be called).

A loss is a loss. The town can't just start spamming the thread to reach a draw if the situation looks bad.

Scum have to be active. I say this because they have the same deadline we townies do, but they have *probably* three times the numbers to remove in the same timeframe.

If scum want to win and beat the deadline, they are going to have to be active, my bet would be.. active from the very beginning of the game.

I don't quite agree with you here. Scum won't necessarily succeed in lynching town by being active, on the contrary, every post by scum is a risk of outing themselves. If we follow your reasoning, we will start to associate the more active players with scum, which will scare everyone off from posting. *Lurking* is bad, not posting.

***
Franzie: I don't see the point of your game, or rather, how you could relate it to mafia. I take the left road. Analyze me.

[Antithesis]

I don't quite agree with you here. Scum won't necessarily succeed in lynching town by being active, on the contrary, every post by scum is a risk of outing themselves. If we follow your reasoning, we will start to associate the more active players with scum, which will scare everyone off from posting. *Lurking* is bad, not posting.

You are right to an extent, every post carries with it some modicum of risk, be it for town or scum. A townie could just as easily post something innocent that is misconstrued or something which unintentionally reveals a role which can lead to negative consequences for the town as a whole or any town player in particular.

I never said posting was bad. I said that scum will be active during the day phase. This is an absolute truth (unless players start leaving the game on their own). I say its absolutely true because at some point the number of players remaining will require scum to vote... unless, again people leave or we the town have won the game by then. I even mentioned that this might not be the case for day one. If it were 3 scum and 9 town and I were scum... I wouldn't participate in the discussions at all the first day. Not unless maybe, the scum boss had a plan and asked me to do so. Otherwise I would let the town drag it out wasting time and space (as we seem to be doing now) arguing about whether its better to make long posts, short posts, how many posts, etc etc etc.

Actually looking at the first game and seeing how poorly that turned out for scum, this seems more and more like a viable scum strategy. Let the town waste time. Don't do anything to expose yourself or your fellow scum. As more time is wasted the real townies become more desperate... they start making more mistakes. perhaps they become easier for scum to direct without drawing undue attention. People become more worried about time and space and maybe they become less willing to go back and reread through the thread looking for old clues

I think you are right. Safest strategy for them is to sit back and watch us implode then they come in and clean up the rest of the town. However I still think they would have one scummer out trying to plant seeds. Thats just a guess though. Unless, of course, you are scum and that's just what you want me to think.

That said though, given the limitations on time and space... at some point (perhaps not early in the game but later on) the scum

must

become active in the day phase in order to insure a scum win. As you pointe out... the game doesn't end in a draw if isn't completed in time, it would count as a loss.

[farside22]

I don't quite agree with you here. Scum won't necessarily succeed in lynching town by being active, on the contrary, every post by scum is a risk of outing themselves. If we follow your reasoning, we will start to associate the more active players with scum, which will scare everyone off from posting. *Lurking* is bad, not posting.

You are right to an extent, every post carries with it some modicum of risk, be it for town or scum. A townie could just as easily post something innocent that is misconstrued or something which unintentionally reveals a role which can lead to negative consequences for the town as a whole or any town player in particular.

I never said posting was bad. I said that scum will be active during the day phase. This is an absolute truth (unless players start leaving the game on their own). I say its absolutely true because at some point the number of players remaining will require scum to vote... unless, again people leave or we the town have won the game by then. I even mentioned that this might not be the case for day one. If it were 3 scum and 9 town and I were scum... I wouldn't participate in the discussions at all the first day. Not unless maybe, the scum boss had a plan and asked me to do so. Otherwise I would let the town drag it out wasting time and space (as we seem to be doing now) arguing about whether its better to make long posts, short posts, how many posts, etc etc etc. I think you are right. Safest strategy for them is to sit back and watch us implode then they come in and clean up the rest of the town. However I still think they would have one scummer out trying to plant seeds. Thats just a guess though. Unless, of course, you are scum and that's just what you want me to think.
.

Personally I think all this discussion will give the scum the idea that it is okay to talk more especially day one.
Once people start lynching one person for sure who is lurking too much the scum will just pounce along with the group and hide. I worry that this is giving the scum way too many ideas on how to cope. I think we want to give away as little as possible to the scum for them to take advantage.
May I suggest we start talking about why we voted for those who are serious about the person they chose and why. See if we can get more on track of finding scum and scaring them into revealing themselves.

[skitzer]

I believe that the main theme, or idea behind this game, is for it to operate like a mafia game, but with a little cooperation between all factions. Because an SK is singular, and must win by themselves, I believe it would be excruciatingly hard to win. If I were an SK in this game format, it just would not be fun.

I think it would be unintelligent to put an SK in this game, no offense to the mod if they did.

So far, deepthought has hard the shortest post, with about four lines and a quote, so I'll say the general majority of the players have a good idea of what they need to ensure a win. Kudos to all.

[Porochaz]

Seems a little low, but doable without much effort as long as people don't start posting one-liners.

Ooh, this looks fun. I'll play.

I walk back to my SUV and haul ass through the right fork, killing hapless wildlife with reckless abandon and slowly suffocating the atmosphere.

Hmmm... interesting... you say no one liner... then you post two lines of nothing in the next post. You completely go back on what you said and you waste 1 post already on the first page.

unvote

now for the first serious vote in the game

vote deepthought