Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Elmo]

I'm Elmo, and I'm a replacing addict.

Hi, Elmo...

I will reread in a number of days greater than one and probably less than five.

[Elmo]

Hi again. I think I'm caught up. Hm, this is an interesting one. I ain't voting at the moment, so I'll fix that with

vote

:

Flare

because he needs to be actually posting and things. And his mechanical spider avatar is weird. I might move it about a bit in a short while - I could probably be argued over to the Yamahako (his avatar is creepy) or Zorg/BM (avatar is too old) wagons, maybe. I'm not sure I want to take a bet with MoS at the moment, and I like BooKitty's avatar too much to vote her.

[Elmo]

Eh, many a true word is oft said in jest. Considering that some people recognise people by their avatars, it could be that there's some kind of subconscious influence going on there. It's just a little bit harder to imagine BooKitty as murderous scum when you've staring into Hello Kitty's deep, soulful eyes. I can't vote for the cute kitty... @_@

Zorg raised an eyebrow or two of mine, too. I would also be interested to read what people have as I reread him. I suppose the silver lining of Yamahako is that his reread only takes two minutes.

[Elmo]

I should probably say that I believe Flare has legit reasons for not showing up. I'll reconsider my vote soon, in light of that.

[Elmo]

I have reason to believe Flare will be posting shortly.

[Elmo]

Hi, Setael2!

Unvote

.

I think Yama needs to explain exactly what he's done thus far - I don't mind unusual playstyles, but that's contingent on said person actually helping the town. I really don't see what he's achieved at this point, and posts like 848 do not impress me at all.

BM: Why no comments on Yamahako? I need to go and reread your post in more detail. That said: Five scum? Your case on Erg0 and ZONEACE are based on MoSScum being linked with them in ways I don't consider very convincing - heaven forbid that MoSScum do something like accuse a scumbuddy, aye? I don't see how agreeing with Erg0 a lot or defending ZONEACE for metagame reasons means they must be buddies together. I find it rather questionable that MoS would leave himself open to this, actually. With respect to MoS being scum, I tend to agree with Bookitty's analysis of his interactions with TS, and actually I'd say that makes it less likely he's linked to Erg0 if he

is

scum. I am less than impressed with your case on Niv, which is "mostly post 950". I don't see anything scummy there - what's bad about not voting the claimed cop? As far as I can make out, your case on Aimee is essentially 'she agrees with MoS once', which is pretty poor. I think you should show how MoS and Erg0's interactions imply they're scum, and you should quite definitely expand on Niv and Aimee, considering how certain you seem to be ("definitely lynchworthy").

i think lynching all 3 of you will be beneficial for the town overall.

You want ALL THREE lynched? You seem remarkably sure that's you've nailed a whole batch at once. I don't like this. Depending on the number of scum, that's practically LyLo if you're wrong.

You Erg0, seem very keen to attack me and defend MoS. He has latched onto your arguments more than a few times. Again, you are a capable player, and i dont see why you are reaching so far to defend him...

With respect, this is pretty icky stuff. Your case (as such) on Erg0 is essentially "MoS is scum and MoS is linked with Erg0 because they agree a lot". You can't reasonably expect him not to comment.

Not sure how much stock to put in this, but both MoS and Erg0 are voting for you - this isn't just OMGUS, is it? Hmm. I don't like a lot of that, and it makes me want to re-read the Zorg case, again.

[Elmo]

Hi Kore <3

Undecided about Setael. I was considering hammering myself; Yamahako would almost certainly have just sat and talked himself into a deadline lynch. I'm not a big fan of Flare, however, so I might hop on after rereading Flare and/or someone making a better case (apologies if I've missed it). This Bookitty case is also a little odd, to me.

Considering we know Erg0's town, I dislike what came from BM's direction yesterday even more. You seemed to be attacking Erg0 and then trying to spin things he said in defence; I think I'm going to

vote

:

Battle Mage

and see what falls out, for now.

I'd be interested in the case on Bookitty, given that Skruffs is also making it - I don't particularly see it at the moment, but I'm willing to listen.

[Elmo]

Heyup, been horribly idle. Sorry 'bout that.

This stuff about masons is a tad difficult to follow. I would say Ether is the most likely protown mason, at the moment; beyond that, it gets rather fuzzy, depending on precisely what kind of untrustworthy mason there is. I'm interested that Bookitty pushed the idea of a miller mason, though, she would obviously be motivated to do that as scum. Hmm. On the other hand, Sim's behaviour is at the very least odd; the traitor-type mason hypothesis would fit there. Niv has also outed masons, and my vague impression is that he's been scummy, although I haven't followed it back.

A key question for me is: how solid is the assumption that there is only a single untrustworthy (i.e. non-town) mason? A lot of the things being proposed seem to rest on that. (Please note, one also means not zero, here.) Also, do we want to lynch a mason today? I would imagine that one's somewhat full of WIFOM; I haven't thought it through.

I acknowledge Bookitty's claim but will not move my vote.

Why are you not doing the obvious and asking members of the claimed mason group whether Bookitty is indeed a mason?

Hi there, thanks for pointing that one out. What possible good could come from having this question answered?

I originally thought the untrustworthy mason might be an SK, seeing as it gets a little weird if there's a mafia mason - the entire mason group would be outed, as several people have said. The traitor mason thing is interesting. I'm still undecided, although this seems productive. (I previously thought it might possibly be Niv, because of needlessly outing the mason group.)

Sir T, why are you so sure it's a vig, not an SK? I think Skruffs made a good point; Erg0 probably protected Skruffs, therefore the lack of a kill probably means a second anti-town role targeted Skruffs, therefore we have two anti-town killing groups. We only have one mafia group (I assume) so that would indicate an SK (or similar). The point about the cop getting an innocent on an SK is interesting; however, it's dependant on the setup, so I'm unconvinced about that, for the moment - many setups make the SK NK-immune but investigate as guilty, iirc. Anyway, I don't understand why you'd eliminate the possibility; such confidence could be interpreted as a minor SK-tell, yes?

Sir Tornado: What is your opinion of Bookitty?
MoS: Erg0 outs himself with 1442, yes? What do you think of Zoneace with respect to that?
Bookitty: What do you think of Kore in general? As an SK?
Niv: What are your feelings about the mason situation? Have you found anything interesting in your night conversations?
Kore: What do you make of BM's spin doctoring against Erg0 et al?

'appy new year!

[Elmo]

I have to second the WTFery with respect to Sir T's behaviour around BM. If you could explain how the mafia roleblocker's reaction was inconsistent with being scum, that would be great. I don't at all follow post 2102.

I'm curious as to why JDodge seems to be attracting attention for what I figured was simply being JDodge. Have I missed something? I don't see anything inconsistent with his hard-to-read meta. Albeit I've never quite figured out what I'm supposed to do when he's scum, heh.

I'm going to

vote

:

Sir Tornado

for the moment, I think. I really need to do some more rereading, but I said I'd post today, so I am.

[Elmo]

I are prodded; proper post soon. Sorry.

[Elmo]

Hi. This is one of those times where I want to reread everything, but I gotta be realistic about that actually getting done anytime soon. So I'm pretty much working entirely off memory. Um. This might be a good time to mention that I never deliberately lurk.

Korejora's haranguing of BM means she's probably town, I think. I remember a big stink about Flare and TS, not sure why Setael's supposed to be town at the moment - maybe that's just slight OMGUS, eh. Hmm. JDodge's Setael vote looked weird. I remember Ether saying something about one of his votes that looked weird, as well. Unhelpfulness being a null tell, I think certainly his voting record should be looked at closer, as that's probably the one useful thing we can get out of him.

Sir T's thing with BM still makes like no sense at all. Some kind of explanation would be grate, unless I've missed it.

Bookitty: Why'd you think Ether might be a traitor-mason beyond, uh, what you already said?
JDodge: How is she defending you, and what do you think we should conclude from that?
MoS: Do you feel ZONEACE's play would give him an advantage as scum? What do you think is the best way to distinguish between when he's town and when he's scum?

[Elmo]

Right. Hmm.

Setael, who do you think is more likely to be scum, out of Sir T and JDodge?
JDodge, please explain your Bookitty and Setael votes, as well as how Setael is supposed to be buddying up to people?

[Elmo]

JDodge: ...and now?

[Elmo]

That is, uh, weird. Well,

unvote

.

JDodge, precisely what kinda defence does that constitute?

*pokes with sharp stick*

...come to think of it, Elmo does need to start posting, yes.

Hi, I posted 26 hours before this.

*waves*

[Elmo]

(n.b. this was mostly written before post 2396 was posted, sorry if things are redundant)

JDodge: It's your deadline lynch. I can't help feeling this is some sort of OMGUS/distraction tactic, but I can't really see what you gain from it, and I hardly object to getting more out of Niv, so, eeh.

Sir T: Refresh my memory - why's MoS scum? You've seemed very insistent at a couple of points (2193, 2290) about him, but I can't find any reasoning as to why. I agree he's one of those people who seem to avoid lynches very artfully, but I also think that if you're confidant enough to vig him, you should have a case (or at least vague reasons) convincing enough that you could get a decent town to lynch him, and I'd say most subsets of the players in this game would constitute that. I suppose you can debate whether a vig should be best decided by one person or everyone in the game, but I generally feel that decisions groups are more sound; certainly I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on him regardless.

I don't have a great deal of comment on Lemming / MoS, simply because I'm paranoid about confirming people. I don't see a problem with the logic

per se

, but personally I wouldn't follow it. I will say that I think there's a disparity between the strength of the argument and Ether's behaviour with it, I really don't think it's the kind of iron-clad proof she seems to think it is at the moment; I don't know what that means right now. But in my mind, he is

not

confirmed.

I also think Sir T's argument for ZONEACE being town is out of whack. He's town because "he would like to keep up his meta"? I really, really doubt he's consciously "oh, I'm town in this game, so I can do my indignant thing here, but must carefully avoid doing it whenever I'm scum". I can quite happily believe the snarkiness and so forth is null, I've seen townies do surprisingly dumb things before (and indeed sometimes defended them for it), but I have no idea how it's supposed to be a towntell. I have, like, nothing on ZONEACE at the moment. I don't know what to do with him.

Hm. I remember there were a bunch of people attacking Flare, and then they've kinda segued away from that as Setael replaced in. I don't know if that's distancing or what, but I can't help thinking something's up with it - Flare's scumminess is the biggest thing in my mind, at the moment, and I'm now wishing I'd done more about it at the time. I don't share Ether's sentiments about Setael; she doesn't feel qualitatively different to S&S2 from my point of view, although perhaps that's just a difference in how we perceive people. I wouldn't be surprised if she were scum here, at least.

Setael: You seemed very confidant that Sir T was scum, and you said you could easily see him being scum with JDodge, right? What connections do/did you think there were?

Hmm. Now I remember you avoided my question about who was more likely to be scum. I think JDodge has looked like the deadline lynch for a while, and Setael could quite plausibly be bussing if he flips scum. (I am slightly biased, she kind of did this in S&S2.) I can't think of anything to preclude those two together, though. Hmm.

I'll

vote: ZONEACE

to better manipulate Tornado.

I don't understand this? I also don't understand what point you're trying to make with that vote count.

I'll say that I think Bookitty's been arguably the person most vocal in poking at me, so I really don't see how you can say that she's been lenient towards me. Hm. How'd you feel she's "blindly trying to keep MoS on the agenda"? I feel it's important that people question my own reasoning, it acts as a kind of safety net in case I slip up somewhere... I don't really get the hate, at the moment. Do you think JDodge is scum, Ether?

I have a bunch of other stuff I want to post, but I also need to go to bed now.

[Elmo]

ZONEACE: Why do you believe Setael and Kore are scum? Are there any other people you suspect?

[Elmo]

I find this very difficult to believe.

Uh, why?

I'll admit that what I noticed of her there was basically Day 1, and you'd probably be a better authority. But judging by your conduct toward her there as opposed to here, I'm thinking there

is

a different.

Yeah, there is. She hasn't made an amazingly scummy post here. I pretty much ignored her until that happened, and she made that post because Farside was getting pressured, she couldn't afford to bus her because she only had the one partner, and she needed to pull a case on Porochaz out of thin air to move the heat off her. None of those things are likely to be true here, so I really don't see how it's a valid comparison. It's pretty obviously fallacious, actually, unless you seriously think I'm stunningly good or she's stunningly bad, neither of which are true. Do you think this is a particularly solid argument as to me not being town and/or her not being scum?

Sir T: My best guess for scum is still JDodge; he's getting lynched, so, beyond that, ZONEACE probably shouldn't stay around into endgame, so I'd say him. I'd object to Kore being vigged, I think. I don't understand why JD being scum would imply I was scum, though.

I still can't get a damn thing out of ZONEACE.

[Elmo]

Playing as uninformed majority: fine.
Playing as informed minority: also fine.
Playing as uninformed minority: !

I found it amazingly difficult to play properly when
a) I didn't know who my buddies were
b) I was worth strictly less than anyone else, so I had to try and avoid actual scumbags getting lynched
c) I couldn't be obviously less aggressive than usual
d) I shouldn't be killed off for being aggressive on someone who was actually scum if the mafia didn't know I was a traitor.

It was actually very fun, but very tricky, having to do all at the same time. I guessed, correctly, that the mafia did not know my exact identity, but had been given some indication I was out there.. I'm really not sure how TS managed to miss that, perhaps she thought all the mafia had that in their role PM? I wish I could do it again, actually.. it's probably even better than being scum in a game with multiple scumgroups for having to exercise both the 'townie' and 'scum' skill sets, hmm.

I am fairly happy about my guesses on day 2, which were that MoS was scum and Sim would be a mafia mason if there was one. I thought a SK mason was more likely for a while, though, and I slipped up in some places, of course - I thought Aimee was likely scum for her comment on lemming, for example, and only realised when Kore was town when she had that spat with BM. Did I mention I thought Kore was an experienced forum regular? Oh, yes, and I saw Sir T's breadcrumb on replacing in - I sent Patrick a PM with "p.s. Sir T breadcrumbed vig in post 1234"!

My only regret is, obviously, not using the protection when I was vigged; I was simply very ill around the deadline, and didn't think it through very well. I was fully expecting a ZONEACE vig, to be honest; I found it hard to gauge how likely I was to be nightkilled when I wasn't sure who the scum were, and being nightkilled by the mafia would be pretty bad - they'd waste a kill, I'd die, and it would be revealed that it was very likely that the mason was a 'full' scum member. I'm not sure what would've happened if I'd lived, though.. wish I coulda posted more than I did, too.

I'm not sure I want to take a bet with MoS at the moment

And there I was thinking it'd be too obvious.

JDodge: Who did you kill?

Kore shines a flashlight in Tornado's eyes.

Tornado: Stop! I surrender! I killed Setael and Elmo!
Elmo: Oh. Hmm.
Ether: I suppose he's confirmed now.
ZONEACE: Wait just a minute--Tornado is a liar! Setael and Elmo are

alive!

vote: Sir Tornado

...like that?

This is clearly the funniest post of the game.

Patrick: Thanks a bunch for modding, I really thought the setup was clever.. it was a really enjoyable (in retrospect) experience! *

<3

*