Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, why is it that you are so rabid after me to get a reason for everything I do, but you seem to have no problem that SirT has claimed a killing ability and claimed several people that he is willing to kill without giving *any* reason for suspecting him? After you were so hard on me for calling you out about ZONEACE and not doing it for anyone else, it seems a little odd that you would go after me for further explanation and not Sir T.

I believe Sir Tornado's claim. Even if he is the SK, if he kills according to the comments he's made, then he's trying to find scum. He's not likely to survive either way, so I see no downside in believing him and assuming his motives are pretty much as he says they are. I don't know what questions you think I should be asking him, but I don't think I'm stopping anyone else from asking questions.

Sir Tornado has claimed that he wants to vig either myself or Setael2, and he has not given even one reason to suspect either of us. That's the sort of thing that you would normally find odd about a person, imo, but you are completely ignoring it. I have pointed this out several times, and not only have you ignored it, but Sir Tornado has ignored me as well. It feels like people are making a conscious effort to avoid addressing the SirT issue directly, because I seem to be one of a very small group of people that actually noticed his complete lack of analysis today.

I was hard on you about defending ZONEACE. I'll readily admit to that. I don't see a good pro-town reason to do that, as I said before, especially since at this point you're arguing that ZONEACE is scum. If he's scum now, he was scum when you were defending him back then. THAT's the point I'm sticking on, MoS. And it's not so much your actions of late that are suspicious, it's the way other people are treating you.

For instance, I argued with you earlier in the game and came out of it with the feeling that you were town. I ended up having to defend myself later on because I didn't pursue you in the same way that I did Flare and to a lesser extent Zorg at that point. The different treatment of people for the same offenses/evidence was the main thrust of Setael's case against me. Why didn't I push for your lynch, since the evidence was the same? Now, clearly, I didn't think the evidence WAS the same... and in this case, you don't think the evidence is the same against JDodge, ZONEACE, and Elmo. I don't see the real distinction between posting crap in this game to look active, and posting in other games while avoiding this one.

I think it's really odd that at this point in the game, with all the evidence available, people are now pushing for lurker lynches, active lurking or passive lurking, and not able to make cases against anyone. But worse than that is this insistence by Ether that you're proven town. I've been bitten by this absolute certainty that Ether-town sometimes has that someone is town, and I'm not going along with it when I'm not sure of it. Like I said, that doesn't make you scum, but I don't notice these kind of "confirmed town" pronouncements being made on behalf of anyone else, not by Ether, not by anyone. I don't notice ZONEACE pulling his punches for anyone else either.

Neither of these things are your fault. Both of these things could be a fairly clever way of setting you up to look like scum. But you have to admit, if someone ELSE was the beneficiary of these two behaviours, they'd look really odd to you as well. And I think you'd be asking for explanations, just as I am.

I don't think Ether's reasoning clears me 100%, but I think that it is still valid. I don't have a problem with you asking for explanations, but I'm seeing a double standard where you're pestering Ether for clearing me and not wanting to question me, yet you seem to have cleared Sir Tornado and are completely ignoring blatantly suspicious things that he's doing. It just seems odd to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you completely not reading my posts at all, BooKitty? Not only have I told you exactly WHAT I thought it was you were ignoring about Sir Tornado, I have also explained that I *have* already asked him about these things and that he has ignored me completely. Why are you being so difficult, BooKie?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's a pretty nice misrepresentation, BooKie. Unless you can point me to a single player who has used all of those arguments themselves, there isn't really anything contradictory about different people having different arguments against you. They don't have to agree what it is they think you're doing that's odd, so there's nothing contradictory about it unless the same person is using contradictory arguments, in which case you should be calling them out instead of making a generalization about "everyone".

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't believe I've misrepresented anyone, MoS. The arguments are contradicting each other. The people who are making the arguments are contradicting each other. I fail to see how that's misrepresentation on my part. I never stated nor implied that anyone was contradicting himself/herself; if I'd thought that, I'd surely have posted exactly that. So it's a good strawman, except I never said what you're implying I said.

They aren't contradicting each other unless they are supporting both statements. They believe different things, and there's nothing wrong with that. One person is allowed to hold a differing opinion from another person, you know. By using the word "contradicting", you are leaving an underlying implication that the statements are somehow less valid. The implication gives a negative connotation, when the simple fact is that people have different opinions regarding you, so they are questioning you about different things. There's nothing wrong with that.

I have directed questions at ZONEACE; he's ignored them, the same way he has everyone else. I don't see how I'm supposed to force him to answer them, when no one else can do so.

Now you know how I feel. I see that you're STILL ignoring me regarding Sir Tornado. You're trying my patience, BooKie...

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, I have a few general questions for you:

1) Do you think protown people should not have to make cases against people they think are scummy?
2) Is it protown to just say someone is scum repeatedly without justifying it? It that useful?
3) Is it protown to be useless?
4) Is it scummy to be less active than other people?
5) Is it protown to ignore people when they question you directly?
6) Which is more generally scummy: A person with a low number of posts, 90% of which have substantial contribution, or a person with 3 times as many posts and 20% substantial contribution?

Note that saying something is NOT protown is *not* the same as saying something is scummy. I'm not asking if a person who takes those actions CAN be protown. That's a completely pointless question and an even more pointless answer, so don't waste my time with crap like that. I just want to know if you think those actions are in the town's best interest, aka protown. These should be fairly simple and obvious yes/no questions, mind you. If you take the non-obvious answer, I'll ask for an explanation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It feels like people are making a conscious effort to avoid addressing the SirT issue directly, because I seem to be one of a very small group of people that actually noticed his complete lack of analysis today.

MoS: You are saying I lack analysis today. Would you show me exactly where I have "analyzed" anything in this entire game? I don't usually do that sort of thing.

I have been playing exactly like I am now -- albeit less aggressively -- for the past 3-4 days. But, MoS marked me as town based on that. The only different thing I have done today is attack MoS; and he's marked me down as possible scum

because

I attacked him today. This reeks of OMGUS. MoS should know better.

I disagree. I just did a quick re-skim of your posts, and I didn't really see much in the way of randomly voting without justification. For the most part, your votes seemed justified. It's not like you are expected to lay down a case with every vote, but the comments you've made up to the point where you vote generally show why you are voting that person. You've been a good contributor all game, and I saw several times where you actually agreed with me and even seemed to think I was protown. Yet, today you spent most of your time doing nothing but repeating that Setael2 and I were scum.

He seems to be depending on you to make his cases for him.

For the last time,

I was voting for you before BooKitty made a case against you!

My vote on you was the first thing I did today; and I haven't moved it since. That BooKitty happened to come across and make a vote on you didn't really influence anything.

For the last time,

when

you voted doesn't matter. The fact is, you voted without having presented ANY sort of reasoning, and BooKitty came along and joined you, making a case of her own. You seemed content to let her carry all the weight of justifying the vote against me, whereas I felt your reasoning had be at least partially clear on past votes.

I oppose vigging Korejora and Setael2.

BooKitty, I'm not asking you to justify anyone's actions but your own. I still want answers to my questions, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If MoS is town, then by stating over and over that he's confirmed town, you've set him up for the nightkill. You're aware of this, Ether?

That's a problem how? I'd rather the mafia waste a nightkill on me than have the town do their work for them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1) Do you think protown people should not have to make cases against people they think are scummy?
2) Is it protown to just say someone is scum repeatedly without justifying it? It that useful?
3) Is it protown to be useless?
4) Is it scummy to be less active than other people?
5) Is it protown to ignore people when they question you directly?
6) Which is more generally scummy: A person with a low number of posts, 90% of which have substantial contribution, or a person with 3 times as many posts and 20% substantial contribution.

1) I do think protown people should make cases against people they think are scummy. I don't believe that they always DO, and I don't know that it's scummy when they don't; but absolutely they should.

2) No. It's not protown or useful to behave that way. But protown people do say that, and some of them adopt it as a playstyle.

3) Absolutely not.

Then why have you made no effort to convince Sir Tornado to act in a protown manner? If you believe he's definitely protown, it's even more important for him to act in a way that's useful for the town than usual. Why do you think it's ok for Sir Tornado to be useless and not act protown, just because you believe he IS protown?

4) Not necessarily. I am not big on lurker lynches in general because it seems such an easy gambit and it's difficult to get any response to the wagon; that said, scum often lurks, so I'd say inactivity leans toward the scummy and is not protown, but is not always scummy either.

In general I do find inactivity scummy, though. And I hate it as a playstyle

???

5) No. Well, wait, I will say that if you're a powerrole and someone is fishing, I absolutely think you should ignore them if possible and then lie if you have to. But in general I think if someone asks you a question that is reasonable and not needlessly provocative or fishing, you should answer it.

Then why do you support Sir Tornado ignoring people who are NOT fishing (especially since he's alreayd claimed, so there's nothing to fish for)?

6) Yay, math.

Okay, arguing that one person has 33 posts and the other person has 99 posts. The first one has 30 useful posts (rounded up). The second person has 20 useful posts (rounded up). So that's 10 posts difference. But the filler posts show that the person is still involved with the game, and apparently engaged enough to make posts that don't make anyone scream at them for their complete irrelevance. I'd call it a wash; even posts that aren't helpful are enough to remind other people to ASK questions and possibly draw the 20-percenter up to a higher level of participation. If someone is just gone, they're often forgotten and no one is asking them questions at all.

In general I do find inactivity scummy, though. And I hate it as a playstyle.

My argument is not that JDodge and ZONEACE are commendable and nonscummy (though my meta on ZONEACEscum suggests he's town here -- would you disagree with this?) but that Elmo's lack of contribution catapulted him over Korejora and Setael into the town range of your list. If JDodge turns up town, and for some reason ZONEACE couldn't be vigged, which of Korejora and Setael would you ask Sir T to vig?

See, this is where you and I seem to differ on basic mafia analysis theories. I believe that a person's amount of contribution and their percentage of contribution to total posts is a LOT more important than how many times they post. I don't fault people for being busy IRL, generally. The only time I fault someone for lurking is if I think they could be doing it deliberately. If someone doesn't post a lot, but does contribute well when they DO post, I don't think that's scummy. That's why Elmo reads protown and ZONEACE/JDodge do not. I don't CARE how much Elmo has posted, unless I think it could be malicious. Nothing in his posting has indicated purposeful lurking. I *did* ask him to post more, though. What I *do* care about is how much Elmo has

contributed

, and he's got a fairly high *amount* of contribution

despite

his low number of posts. Nothing he's done has indicated any scumminess to me, so he was high up on my protown list along with Korejora and Setael II. I would not support ANY of the three of them being vigged right now, because I believe JDodge and ZONEACE are our scum. If they weren't, I would probably have them be vigged in the same order they're listed on my suspicion list: Setael II, Elmo, Korejora.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, in case you're too lazy to read that post, Sir T, I'm adding Elmo to my list of do-not-vig people. I think I forgot to put him on it the first time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Since when has it been my official responsibility to tell Sir Tornado what to do, MoS? I didn't get this memo. *I* am not suspicious of Sir Tornado. Why is it my job to make him behave in the way YOU want? How did this responsibility fall to me?

Precisely why can't you do this yourself, since you want it done?

I'm pretty sure I did. Why do you keep insinuating that I did NOT prod Tornado to act in a protown way, when even the most cursory glance at my posts today will reveal MULTIPLE requests for Tornado to do something protown? I'm pretty sure he ignored my requests for quite some time, until just recently replying by refusing to act in a protown manner.

Again, the fact that you think Sir Tornado is PROTOWN is even MORE reason for you to want him to ACT protown. What use is a protown person that does not ACT protown?

Also, please answer my questions instead of evading them by trying to turn this back on me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: ZONEACE

I'm glad SirT killed Elmo, because it would've been hard to figure out Elmo as the traitor, whereas it's much easier to figure out ZONEACE as mafia.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where is everyone else? This is an open and shut case. Let's take down a scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cuz scum call for speed lynches *all* the time...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting how ZONEACE is now shedding his muted response to me now that he finally made his way up to my top suspect.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You people have no sense of strategy...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Didn't you mean to quote Ether in 2537?

[Mastermind of Sin]

err yea. damnit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, I don't think TS was searching for masons, personally.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, I don't think TS was searching for masons, personally.

I think recent events pretty well prove that you're right. (I guess there could be two traitors, but that seems sort of farfetched; I don't know how a fullscum mason could work considering we have four masons left, which doesn't seem optimal play for scum; and I don't know what neutral roles exist other than survivor and SK -- we don't have an SK, so I really don't know what to think about the mason situation at all at this point. Considering that we MIGHT have a fullscum mason, it may be time to start looking at that possibility for lynching purposes.)

Who do you think ZONEACE's most likely scumbuddy is, MoS? Have your suspicions changed, given Elmo's cardflip as scum?

I'm starting to think that the non-confirmation was just a way of balancing the masons so we didn't have a fully confirmed group of people.

I think ZONEACE's buddy is probably Setael, if he has one at all. I haven't run the numbers recently to see how it looks. Elmo being a traitor means that the mafia didn't know about him, so there's not much info to gain as a result.

Niv, why do you think I'm scum? I did not spend the "first few days" calling ZONEACE town. I spent the first day saying that the actions of his people were calling scummy were normal for him, so he's more likely town based on that, and then I spent the next 3 days defending my Day 1 actions, thanks to BooKitty's incessant nagging.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*bump*

[Mastermind of Sin]

wheee

[Mastermind of Sin]

everyone should keep talking

[Mastermind of Sin]

I just took a quick look at NoXKill. I think anyone that looks at ZONEACE's posts there will agree with me that he is town in this game.

Unvote

Let's move on, he's not the play (although I still want him to actually contribute something useful).

[Mastermind of Sin]

*bump*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I saw the scummies thread where someone was nominated for NoXKill (which just finished, I think), and ZONEACE mentioned there that he had been lynched as scum in that game or something like that. So I went to look at it, being a recent game, to update my meta.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I can't really see where it would help, but it's possible that a massclaim would help the scum. On the other hand, though, half the players are already claimed...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I pretty much agree with the above. I'd lean towards Setael over Korejora, but the arguments between Setael and BooKitty have me convinced they are not on the same side, and I'm fairly certain BooKitty is our untrustworthy mason if we have one. I just don't have any significant evidence against anyone at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ZONEACE, who do you think the remaining scum are? Has your opinion changed any since the last time you stated it?

Setael, if ZONEACE is town (and MoS is arguing that ZONEACE is town, after his insistence yesterday that JDodge and ZONEACE were scummy for noncontribution), who would you think the most likely scum would be?

*shrug* I was obviously wrong about JDodge, and I found new meta-evidence to support ZONEACE.

Ether, what's your current read on Korejora?

Simenon, what do you think of MoS's sudden aboutface on ZONEACE after ignoring the identical argument yesterday?

BooKitty, I don't recall you pointing to any specific game where ZONEACE was scum. If you did, I missed it. The reason I disagreed with your argument yesterday was because even the town ZONEACE I'm used to contributes more than he has in this game, and I hadn't seen a ZONEACE-scum game that gave me a strong meta about his scum play. Now I have a good example of his scum play, so I can apply that meta personally.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I for one think it highly likely that there's still a scum among the non-masons. To answer Boo's question if it's not Zoneace, I would pick MoS over Kore. I can reconcile his Zorg push as bussing easier than I can reconcile Kore's BM tunneling as bussing. MoS pushed zorg but then let it go and didn't go after BM until the focus was brought back to him. I can see a possibility of MoS. I've been in a lot of games with him and he's always been town so I think I have a tendency to assume he's always town. I guess he's gotta be scum some time eh?

The last thing I want to do is reread his play, but I'd vote MoS before kore.

I didn't go after BM until the focus was brought back to him? I was voting him when TS was lynched, AND I was still voting him the next day as well. I unvoted him to go after Setael and then Bookitty in mid-December, but still continued talking about him and kept him in focus as my #2/#3 suspect throughout that entire time. So where exactly did I "not go after BM until the focus was brought back to him"?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Disclaimer: This post is made with the acknowledgment that Setael does not necessarily think I am scum. However, I believe that even the statement of eventuality of suspicion should be challenged, because it would be all too easy for Setael to point back to her post from now and just cite it as reasoning for voting me if her other suspects were lynched before that. I don't believe the reasoning presented is valid, so I feel obligated to post a defense against it regardless of the fact that Setael has stated she doesn't necessarily think I am scum. This does not have to become a long drawn-out discussion, but I want to get my response on record so that this case cannot be cited later without providing further justification for using it.

Isn't that pretty common bussing technique, though? To lay off them as your #1 but not drop them totally. You didn't push it again until I made my big BM case. I know it's a long shot - keep in mind that I'm by no means convinced you're scum. If you're scum your play has been textbook imo. I just don't think it's kore so in order to answer boo's question, I have to pick you.

So you think that it's possible that I latched onto my scumbuddy Day 1, kept focus on them even while the town was distracted by a fake cop claim by my other scumbuddy, kept focus on them after my other scumbuddy was lynched, kept mentioning that they were scummy even while I argued with other people, and generally made sure that the town didn't forget about them until they finally got lynched? That's common busing technique? In what way does that seem like an optimal busing tactic?

The only reason that BM stopped being my top subject for attacks is that no one seemed to agree with his wagon. A couple people voted him with me D1, and then I couldn't get any support for it after that. I couldn't just go after him exclusively throughout the whole game, because he's not the only scum out there, and it's suboptimal town play to get tunnel-visioned on a single person. What is it that you think I would've done as town that would be different?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So if it's one of three, ZONEACE, why are you apparently voting for someone not even in your top three?

oh woops, that was a left over defensive/self saving vote from when MoS was trying speed lynch me.

You people have no sense of strategy...

unvote vote kore

Why Kore?

[Mastermind of Sin]

ditto the above, probably.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How do you feel about ZONEACE, Simenon?

Also, it looks like I won't be going out of town after all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sure, why not. Anything to get discussion to pick up around here.

My top choice: Setael
My second choice: BooKitty, with a possible side of Korejora (because he is the other non-mason besides Setael that I'm not sure is town, but I don't really see him as scum either)
My explanation for why I am not voting: I needed to reconsider my options after I realized ZONEACE was town, and I forgot to vote again when I narrowed it down.

Vote: Setael

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's ironic that BooKitty is spending so much time getting upset about Ether's defense of me that she's no longer "attempting to get information from" me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, I think you are scum IF there is a scum mason. I hope that Setael is scum, and Korejora is probably the next likely after that. However, I think you are much scummier than Korejora, and I do not have an ironclad case for believing that there may not being a scum mason. Therefore, I do not understand why I am scummy for considering the possibility of me being wrong on that point and adding that into my calculations.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Setael, can you point to a few games where you are town and scum that are finished? I don't *have* a meta on you. The only reason I was able to meta ZONEACE better was because I happened across a finished game where he was scum. I don't even know of any other games of his recently where he was scum, so I had to rely on my own meta of him until I had further evidence. Until I have evidence to use for a meta on you, I don't have one for you. You seem pretty much the same to me in every game. I've already said that my vote on you is by process of elimination, because I *do* have a meta on ZONEACE and I *do* have good reason to believe Korejora is town. I don't have either of those for you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Some comments I noted on a reread that seem to undermine your recent arguments, at least in my opinion.

How? If anything, the posts you quoted support my current read on ZONEACE, even though the posts you quoted occurred when his greatest "offense" as I saw it was being abrasive, so the situation was quite different than it was later and now.

MoS, you can see all my games here:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Setael

I *do* have a meta on ZONEACE and I *do* have good reason to believe Korejora is town. I don't have either of those for you.

Can you tell me what you find town about Kore that doesn't apply to me? My main reason is her play on the BM wagon which doesn't seem that different from my own.

Can you please point to me where you and BM had a massive argument with each other that was so long and drawn out that my eyes began to glaze over every time I saw a new post begin?

[Mastermind of Sin]

WHOA WHOA WHOA

I reversed myself for no real reason? That's bullshit. I gave plenty of reason to reverse my read on ZONEACE. My original read on him was based on his aggressiveness towards people, which is natural for him and not a scumtell. I thought he might be scum later, however, because he wasn't contributing even though he had plenty of posts. I did NOT "check a meta

kept saying

already had". I had a town/null meta on ZONEACE based on his aggressiveness towards people. The reason I am vouching for him today is because I have a

scum

meta on him. Those are two completely different reasons for my read on him, yet you are asserting that they are the same thing. Why is that, BooKitty? Why are you so desperate to make it look like I contradicted myself?

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="Bookitty"]I'm not desperate to make it look like anything. I posted the quotes, I think your level of certainty about ZONEACE's alignment is pretty clear from those. I think you either overstated that certainty then, or you're now trying to minimise the amount of certainty you were expressing then. After all, you were touting the amount of experience you had with ZONEACE's playstyle... and now you're saying you had no scum meta?

Do you really think you can have a meta on someone without seeing them as both scum and town? How would you know if their playstyle varied, if you hadn't seen both?

It's equivalent to me playing one game with Setael as town and then saying, well, she plays sort of the same, I think she's town! I don't know how she'd act as scum, but I'm sure it would be different!

It's nonsense, and you know it yourself.[/quote]

Of course I didn't have a scum meta on ZONEACE. I have never seen a game where he was scum. All I know is that the actions he was making were actions he would make as town, so it's nonsense to say his is scum for that playstyle. I know how he plays as town, so I can guarantee that the actions he was being attacked for were NOT scumtells.

I changed my mind because I found what I thought

were

scumtells. I found a completely different reason to suspect ZONEACE that had nothing to do with the reason I defended him Day 1.

Then, when I finally saw a game where he had been scum, I was able to formulate a scum meta on him, and that convinced me he was town.

This is a fairly straightforward thought process. Why are you having so much trouble understanding common sense?

[quote="Setael"][quote="MoS"]Can you please point to me where you and BM had a massive argument with each other that was so long and drawn out that my eyes began to glaze over every time I saw a new post begin?[/quote]
What makes the fight they had more of a town tell than my BM case when the VC looked like this:
[quote]
Bookitty (5) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Mastermind of Sin, JDodge, Simenon
Battle Mage (2) -- Elmo, Korejora
Mastermind of Sin (2) -- Skruffs, Battle Mage
Simenon (2) -- Bookitty, Sir Tornado
Korejora (2) -- Setael, Ether[/quote]

See Post 2011, pg. 81.[/quote]

What makes your BM case more of a town tell than the fact that both TVZ and BM tried to get me lynched?

[quote="Bookitty"]
2) questioning MoS's different treatment of people for the same offenses, the exact thing Setael made a case against me for, and having him shielded by people insisting he was town and other people saying to drop the subject[/quote]

That is bullshit. I never treated people differently for the same offenses.

[quote="Bookitty"][quote="Korejora"]I haven't got a strong enough opinion about anyone to condemn them. MOS isn't an exception. I'd put him more on the scum side than the town side if that helps any. [/quote]

So you are seriously claiming that you have a more-or-less neutral read on everyone on page 106 of the game?[/quote]

What's so wrong about this? I don't have much more than a neutral read on anyone, either. That's because most of the people alive are the people I thought were protown. The only people I *think* I really have a solid read on are ZONEACE, Korejora, and BooKitty, but I've already stated why I'm not pursuing a BooKitty lynch at this time. The rest of the game reads more-or-less neutral to me.

[quote="Bookitty"]Don't let them do that. Make them go after me today, pin them down to their suspicions and hold them to it. If they think I'm scum, WHY don't they want to lynch me TODAY?[/quote]

I've already pinned down my suspicions. Korejora and ZONEACE are not scum, so Setael has to be. You could be scum if there is a scum-mason. Why are you ignoring the fact that I'm not lynching you because you're a mason? I've explained WHY I don't want to lynch you, so why do you keep asking like I haven't answered it already?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: If there is a scum mason, I don't think you're scum. I think you could only be scum with Korejora (or possibly ZONEACE, but that seems a long shot) and that means there would be no scum mason.

If you have not seen someone's play as both scum and town then you have no true meta on them. You have experience with them, which is not the same thing. If they play the same way as scum and town, then any "towntells" you think you've seen are really "nulltells", and you have no way of knowing that.[/quote[

And yet "nulltells" are very clearly NOT scumtells, as people were implying they were.

If you truly think you could have the level of certainty about ZONEACE's alignment early on based on a non-meta of having played with him as town ONLY, then you're just wrong, sorry. (And yes, I expect a diatribe about how you know so much more than I do, so please, feel free.)

LoL

And by the way, you treated Elmo quite differently for what was basically the same offense. Now you have gotten your top suspect lynched (town), cleared your second most serious suspect, and your original second most town turned out to be scum. I treated Flare (now Setael) as my most serious suspect, Battle Mage as my second, and considered you as cleared. The case Setael made against me, paraphrased, was that I used the same evidence to clear you that I used to incriminate her and to a lesser degree Battle Mage. Everyone was happy enough to jump on that case at the time, including you (and yes, you did push Battle Mage, but you were always happy enough to jump off and vote for people who were in more danger, by my vote analysis, and that includes me). But consider: you have Setael and myself as your top suspects. That implies that you think we could be scumbuddies, which is ridiculous based on the fact that she made that case against me and nearly got me lynched back then. But it also leaves the possibility that if they get her lynched, and she comes up town, as I believe she will, then they can seamlessly move to the second mislynch they've ALREADY set up. And this means a town loss.

No, actually, if Setael came up scum, I'd find you less likely to be scum *because* of her trying to lynch you. However, I have no clue who Setael's scumpartner could be, because I didn't even suspect Setael until I ran out of possibilities.

I didn't clear Elmo for the same reasons at all. I thought Elmo was clear because he and Beastly had contributed a lot in their few posts. I thought ZONEACE and JDodge were scum because they had NOT contributed very much, even though they had plenty of posts. My suspicion of JDodge and ZONEACE were not at all based on how many posts they had, and you are claiming that I should've suspected Elmo because he hadn't posted much. You're STILL putting words in my mouth, because I didn't say anything even close to that.

Have you meta'd Setael yet?

I haven't had time yet. Next week.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS started today pushing for a quicklynch of ZONEACE.

Vote: ZONEACE

I'm glad SirT killed Elmo, because it would've been hard to figure out Elmo as the traitor, whereas it's much easier to figure out ZONEACE as mafia.

Where is everyone else? This is an open and shut case. Let's take down a scum.

And then look at the posts starting at post 2531 and proceeding straight through to MoS's second epiphany about ZONEACE in post 2559. I believe this supports my argument that they did try pushing a lynch on ZONEACE, but if you read that page or so, you'll see that I argued against it and only THEN did MoS decide it was time to check a meta he had been implying he already had.

Funny that BooKitty would try to use those two quotes against me, considering that it should be obvious by now what I was trying to do. I hinted at it at the time, and the matter was dropped so I assumed you understood.

You people have no sense of strategy...

While I *did* still suspect ZONEACE at the time (or I wouldn't have been willing to risk it), I should think it was obvious

by now

that I came out today with the intention of flushing a scum out by convincing them to "quick lynch" ZONEACE. When that didn't work, I backed off of ZONEACE to reconsider my options. It was after that when I managed to find my scum-meta on him and got a town read.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It was a pretty risky gambit, if that is what it was, since ZONEACE already had Simenon and Setael voting for him and was at L-2 with your vote.

Say, isn't Setael your current number one suspect? Doesn't it sort of defeat the purpose of luring scum onto a quicklynch when your primary suspect was voting for him already? You think Korejora is town, apparently, so you're arguing that you were hoping to lure scum that wasn't Setael and wasn't ZONEACE (I doubt any amount of luring would convince him to self-vote) onto a quicklynch? Who were you hoping would bite? Your top suspect was on the wagon before you, and your other suspect at the time was the target. So you could only have lured Ether or myself, and I had already gone on the record as saying I thought ZONEACE was likely town. So... you were trying to lure Niv and Ether?

Did you think about this very much?

Setael is my number one suspect NOW, due to process of elimination. How could Setael have been my top suspect when I was trying to get ZONEACE lynched? I mostly wanted to see if I could get *anyone* to go along with it, because I don't have reads on most of them. That's like 4-5 people who could've jumped on, , including Korejora, who might've done it as scum and would've given her away despite my current read. But scum tend to avoid situations that could easily make them look bad, especially if they've got people defending them.

Additionally, you do realise that anyone who jumped on and put ZONEACE at L-1 could have argued that they saw your gambit and were trying to assist you with it?

Would you have believed such a blatant lie? I don't really take you for a sucker, Bookie...

You basically telegraphed that you wanted someone to do so, with the quote about having no sense of strategy, so, if ZONEACE is town, how could you have been certain you caught scum in whoever put him at L-1, assuming he didn't get lynched before you could unvote?

The quote about having no sense of strategy came AFTER I was no longer pushing a quick lynch. The time had come and gone, so anyone voting at that point would just be stupid, and probably scum to boot.

Good posting, Bookitty. MoS' claim that he was trying to flush out scum doesn't fly at all imo.

It wasn't some master plan to try and win the game, but it coulda worked. It's not like I thought through some complex idea I was going to try and pull off. No, I saw the thread was open for day and decided to bait the scum by suggesting a quicklynch. That's all there is to it.

MoS, why are you sure Kore is town? Just the fight with BM, or is there more to it than that?

Pretty much just the fight with BM. I think BM most likely would've tried to ignore his scumbuddies until he had to respond to them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Setael is my number one suspect NOW, due to process of elimination. How could Setael have been my top suspect

when I was trying to get ZONEACE lynched

? I mostly wanted to see if I could get *anyone* to go along with it, because I don't have reads on most of them. That's like 4-5 people who could've jumped on, , including Korejora, who might've done it as scum and would've given her away despite my current read. But scum tend to avoid situations that could easily make them look bad, especially if they've got people defending them.

If you were trying to get ZONEACE lynched, then how is it a gambit? If someone is your number one scum suspect, then isn't it good for someone else to vote to lynch him, quicklynch or no? Why use such a gambit on someone who was already a lot of people's top suspect?

If I came out and tried to quicklynch, say, Korejora, as soon as the day started, how do you think that would look? It wouldn't be believable at all, plus there's no way scum would go for it. I had to pick a target that I already suspected and that scum would believe they had a chance of quicklynching and getting away with it. Plus, it for some reason the quicklynch went through before I had a chance to unvote, I didn't want to target someone who I didn't think could be scum.

Your reasoning still isn't making sense. And who are you referring to in the comment about "if they've got people defending them"? Simenon and Setael were already on the wagon. ZONEACE was the target. That leaves Korejora, Ether, Niv and myself as the only possible people who could have fallen for your target (unless you're counting yourself), so that's four. Who's been defending Korejora, Ether, Niv, or myself, please?

Off the top of my head, I know that Korejora has gotten defended by a couple people, including myself. I don't know if anyone was defending the rest of you. It was just more of a general theory statement than a reference to specific actions within this game.

The quote about having no sense of strategy came AFTER I was no longer pushing a quick lynch. The time had come and gone, so anyone voting at that point would just be stupid, and probably scum to boot.

So why didn't you unvote him at that point? You didn't claim a new scum meta until after that comment. At that point you said you still thought he was scum... so... anyone who voted for him would be scum? How's that again?

The time had come and gone for quicklynching. By the time I made my strategy comment, the mood wasn't set for a quicklynch anymore. Just because there wasn't any chance of him getting quicklynched at that point doesn't mean I didn't still suspect him. I unvoted him when I read NoXKill, because that's what made me realize he wasn't acting like scum, so why would I have unvoted him before that?

You made the comment about strategy before Niv had even posted in the new day. So apparently he couldn't have been your target, or why show your hand before he'd shown his? You now have said you don't really take me for a sucker, so you couldn't really have thought I'd reverse my own stated position suddenly and agree to a quicklynch of ZONEACE (or really anyone, at THIS point in the game) regardless of my alignment.

So? Just because Niv hadn't posted doesn't mean jack shit. If the rest of the game moves on from something, you don't need to wait for one person to comment on it before dropping it. The time for quick lynching had past, so it didn't matter whether or not Niv had posted, not that I actually checked to see if he had or not.

As for you, I don't take you for a sucker, but I don't think people need to be a sucker to fall for that one. I don't know how you play as scum or what sort of risks you're willing to take. As far as I was concerned, it was possible for anyone to fall into that one. I was just waiting to see who it would be.

So your trap could only have been intended for Korejora and Ether. That's not four or five people, that's two people, and two people only, who seem logical targets for that gambit given your actions. Every other suspect (except Niv, and I've addressed that) was either on the wagon beforehand, had stated a clear position on ZONEACE previously, or was the target of the gambit and thus couldn't possibly fall for it.

You're acting like I actually thought this through before trying it out. LOL

What has Korejora done between that time and now to clear herself? Was it just her failure to jump on the ZONEACE quicklynch? And were you suspicious of Ether at that time? Are you suspicious of her now?

Korejora hasn't done anything

today

for me to think she wasn't scum. It was her interactions with BM that make me think she is likely to be protown. Her "failure" to jump on the ZONEACE quicklynch couldn't possibly "clear" her. If I was applying logic that retarded, Simenon and Setael would be the only possible scum, since all of Ether/Niv/BooKitty/Korejora "failed" to jump ont he ZONEACE quicklynch, as you put it. I may not think things through all the time, but I'm not stupid. Don't treat me like I am.

I don't think Ether is scum, but I'm not sure. She's seemed fairly logical so far, but I may be biased by the fact that she's defended me up to this point. I'm wary of possible buddying up from scum at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's ugly. *hugs*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't like the fact that Bookitty is essentially telling Korejora that he should fabricate some suspicions. You can't just create reads on people when you don't have them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korejora took the words right out of my mouth.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korejora made an accusation about stalling for JDodge's lynch -- but she's not sure if it was me, or MoS, or third parties to be named later... it was an accusation without a target. So...

When did I get dragged into this?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@BooKitty's question: Probably 5 scum out of 22, assuming average distribution of everything *else*.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If the major push now is for Korejora to be lynched, I'll go with my second suspect and

unvote, vote: BooKitty

for a competing wagon. I'd still rather a Setael lynch, though, because I think it would shed more light on BooKitty's alignment, and because it's a non-mason lynch. If we get more votes for Setael, I'll change back.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Happy Scumday Kore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: If a member of the scum team was awol for a night, could another member of the mafia send in their choice for them (assuming they had an extra ability, such as roleblocking)?

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty, how do you know the mafia did not use their roleblock the first night? It would be idiotic to just hold onto it altogether, so why are you suggesting that's what happened? You're coming way out of left field here; no one else has said anything like that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lemming was outed as the cop. While the rest of us didn't know who was telling the truth for certain between Toaster Strudel and Lemming, the scum surely did, don't you think?

Who do you think they roleblocked, if not Lemming? Why do you think they chose not to roleblock Lemming, since you're apparently arguing that they willingly chose not to roleblock a claimed cop and instead roleblocked... who?

I don't know who they roleblocked, but they obviously did NOT roleblock Lemming, and they very clearly had the opportunity to, since they didn't need Zorg/BM to be around to make the roleblock. If anything, you proving that Zorg/BM was NOT around to make the roleblock eliminates the possibility of the scum failing to roleblock because they though Zorg/BM was going to do it. So I don't know who they roleblocked, but we know it wasn't Lemming, and we can deduce that it makes no sense for them not to have roleblocked when they clearly had the opportunity. Maybe they avoided roleblocking Lemming because they wanted their roleblocker to be able to claim his results truthfully if he came under fire? I don't know, but I can only guess. They probably assumed BM could figure that out on his own (a bad assumption, considering how bad he is) and didn't specifically tell him the plan, and then he decided to claim townie for some reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP:

Unvote, Vote: Setael

That's 2 for Setael.

[Mastermind of Sin]

out of town for the weekend.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And many people hate confirmed masons. That's why roles like unconfirmed masons exist.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Setael's vote is pretty suspect...not sure what to think of BooKie's, yet...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to be out of town from tomorrow through Sunday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

not really...Setael is my #1 target regardless of the deadline.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks Bookitty. I'm still on vacation until tomorrow and don't have time to be thorugh at all. For my last words, I'll say that I think I was wrong about my scum list since Ether needs to get bumped on. She wanted to lynch one of the masons all day and has been sure the entire game that I'm town and now all of a sudden, with no reason provided, she prefers my lynch.

So... Ether and MoS I guess.

I hate getting lynched when I'm out of town and can't do anything about it. Last time this happened, MoS was scum in the game (Lost Boys) so maybe that's affecting how sure I am that he's evil in this game. Anyway, whoever is scum is pretty subtle, so good luck town.

Uhh, Setael, you *do* realize that I've been pushing your lynch for a long time before you had V/LA, AND that I wasn't even here for most of the time you were gone? You posted on Wednesday that you would be gone until Monday, and on Friday I left for the weekend as well...so how exactly are you accusing me of doing something to take advantage of your absence?

And that's not to mention the fact that trying to make a correlation between your absence and the wagon on you is completely baseless to begin with. No one knew you were going to be gone until you said it on Wednesday, and I already had you on the top of my suspicion list far before then. So how exactly does your absence have *anything* to do with the fact that you are being voted?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's see here, Setael. Despite the fact that I already had you near the top of my suspicion list on previous days (right after JDodge and ZONEACE, one of whom is dead, and the other of whom I now believe is protown), let's just deal with today.

Here I first pointed you out as my top suspect

Here I placed my vote on you for being my top suspect

Here is where you announced your absence for the length of the day up to deadline

Look at the dates on those posts. Almost a whole

month

after you became my top suspect, you declared that you would be gone through the deadline, and now you are accusing me of trying to take advantage of the deadline to get you lynched, even though I wasn't even on the site during that time period? That's bullshit, Setael, and you know it.

I rest my case.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why does everyone think I am "pushing" Setael's lynch? Setael is the only non-mason who I can conceivably see as scum right now. I don't have a case against Setael, other than the fact that she's the only person I DON'T have reasons to find protown. I NEVER stated that I had other reasons to vote Setael, so to insinuate otherwise is complete bullshit. Setael is completely missing the point of my last post. I did not quote those posts to establish my reasoning for voting Setael. I quoted those posts to establish the

fact

that my vote on Setael has NOTHING to do with the fact that she was absent leading up to deadline. However, instead of admitting that her accusations were blatantly wrong, Setael has avoided acknowledging the point and continued to harp on me for things I never said I had done.

I have NOT had a chance to meta Setael, because I've been out of town every weekend for the last several, and that's usually my best time to reread, since I have huge projects due every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. This isn't the only game that has suffered for me lately. You can check just about every game I'm in (including one where I was unable to make a real post in the game for an entire game day, and then got killed that night). This game has probably gotten the *most* contribution out of me, actually. I don't have time to meta Setael, but if someone can quote me specific counter-metas of Setael (to prove she is protown), I might have time to glance at them before it is too late to change my vote. That is the best I can promise.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You, considering I don't think the two of you are likely scum together.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ok...now I'm confused. Setael and BooKitty were not scum...That leaves me without any real suspects. I need to completely reevaluate my suspicions, because the metas and evidence I thought I had clearly are not correct.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korejora, could you update us on your current analysis of each player? It doesn't need to be very detailed, but a few sentences would suffice. Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, are there any objections to having a mass claim at this point? Half of us are already claimed, anyway...

I think we could be at LYLO. With 8 claimed power roles (so far) out of 22 players, we could easily have 4 *or* 5 scum, with 1 as a traitor and no SK. If we mislynch today and the game does *not* end, I would be suspicious of any further power role claims, because 9 power roles with <5 scum seems unreasonable. I'm also leaning towards a fully scum mason at this point, because I find Korejora/ZONEACE both unlikely to be scum. If we only have 1 scum left, I'd say it's probably in the masons, but if we have two, I must have misread one of those two, because 2/4 masons being scum just seems unfair.

[Mastermind of Sin]

2/5 masons. And I have no idea what to look at here. I was halfway guessing yesterday, and I'd be completely guessing today. I had to take another look at MOS when Setael turned up innocent, after how long he'd been after her, but my opinion hasn't changed from yesterday -- I still think it incriminates Niv more than MOS. Bookitty's death didn't give me anything new since I already figured her for town - it just reinforced what I already had, which wasn't much.

ZONEACE still doesn't point me either way. I skimmed some of his games when I first replaced into this game; he was acting normal then, and he's acting normal now. If Ether is scum, then I would probably say MOS is scum, but I don't think that's right. Niv, I repeat, bothers me for the same reasons Setael did. Simenon hasn't given me much of a reason to think he's town, but that's not something I'd like to lynch someone on.

I think we all agreed we probably only had two chances left. Bookitty and I both threw in our fair share of complaints about that. I have no particular qualms with mass-claiming, but as far as I can tell we don't really have a standout player that everyone thinks is town, so how do you intend to organize it?

As any good town does it.

Randomly.

1) MoS
2) Korejora

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

Whoever's number comes up goes first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Umm, how exactly can I rig the forum's

built-in

dice rolling function? You

DO

know that a rigged dice roll would look like:

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

same here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA through Friday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's definitely a good case, I have to agree with that. I'd like to hear Niv defend himself, so if anyone was planning to vote Niv, please wait.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No lynch would get rid of one suspect, but would it really improve anything? It would reduce the number to lynch down to 3, and it would give the scum a higher percentage of the town's numbers. I don't see how it would really help us, and I'm very suspicious of this suggestion coming from Niv after he refused to defend himself. I'm thinking this is a ploy to get out of the hole he's in.

Vote: Niv

[Mastermind of Sin]

vote sim

Something about niv's last few posts make me believe he's town. I don't really have an explanation, its just a gut feeling, and frankly, it looks like that's as good as anyone else.

MOS-Sim or ZONE-Niv? *muse*

I sure hope I'm not overlooking Ether for nothing.

Unvote

just to be sure.

What part of my post do you disagree with? Please, humor me by explaining why my logic is bad here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No lynch would get rid of one suspect, but would it really improve anything? It would reduce the number to lynch down to 3, and it would give the scum a higher percentage of the town's numbers. I don't see how it would really help us, and I'm very suspicious of this suggestion coming from Niv after he refused to defend himself. I'm thinking this is a ploy to get out of the hole he's in.

Vote: Niv

Um,is anyone here not a suspect? the scum would kill someone tonight, giving us better odds tomorow. we would lose a suspect, and have better odds. if we lynch today, we lose. this is all as though there is 2 scum left though

Personally, I am pretty sure Ether is town, and everyone else seems to feel that way as well. It's likely that she would die if we no lynched.

On top of that, right now the scum can only cast 2 out of the 4 votes needed to lynch. If we no lynch today, we guarantee that the scum improve from 2/4 to 2/3. That means they only need one protown person to place a wrong vote and they win. On top of that, each protown player would still only have a 50% chance of correctly voting for scum, which isn't much of an improvement over the current 40%, which I see as 50% considering that I don't think Ether is scum at all. So we have several advantages now that we wouldn't have tomorrow, and you're trying to deprive us of that to give the scum a better chance as well as save yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What bothers you about it? Looking at the post in context with the other posts preceding it, it doesn't bother me...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Finals week, kinda busy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Doesn't help what?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Except that your actions support a motive for you TO be scum, so I don't believe you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Am I the only one here?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Still here, still voting Niv.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is the second game where TS has been scum with me and completely self-destructed for no fucking reason. This is only the third game where we've been scum together. Now I know why I don't like playing with her.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, and that third game was one where she faked a "smiley-only" post restriction. Kinda hard to self-destruct when you aren't saying anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here's some of the mafia communications:

Ok it's rant time.

WTF is wrong with you guys? Are you trying to get our entire team killed on Day 1? Distancing on Day 1 is NEVER going to get you enough credits to get you through the game. It is NEVER useful to try and create bullshit arguments against your teammates to make it look like you aren't on the same team.

Zorg, what were you thinking? If you weren't trying to distance from me, what the hell WERE you doing, because your arguments against me were horrible. I had no choice but to try and get you lynched. We're only lucky that the Zeppo wagon came up so that I could straddle both wagons and save your ass.

TS, what is wrong with you as well? You sit around and don't contribute very much all game, then you don't try to participate under pressure, and you don't even help the town out after you claimed cop? WTF? I can't keep you alive if you don't try. I am sick and tired of being mafia with people who aren't going to play the fucking game. You can't win like that. Just look at Mafia 61. This is fucking ridiculous.

Now because of the antics of you two, I had to go out on a limb and Lemming is probably going to investigate me tonight. He's got a 99% chance of being protected, so if you have any fucking brilliant plans, let me know now, for fuck's sake.

Ridiculous...

Oh and if we have more scumbuddies than the three of us, don't tell me, but feel free to forward this message to them. I don't want to know if I've forgotten someone, because that's a good thing.

CC: Patrick/TS/Zorg

Frankly, I can rant too.

Simenon is voting for you for absolutely no reason galore, all over the place. You, me, Zorg, you, whoever, then you again.

Plus, he was fueling my wagon to no end, and I'm the Godfather, what's up with that? It's like he's obsessed with voting for his buddies. He forgot I was the Godfather. Brilliant.

I wasn't scummy at all, I was busy scumhunting and found White to be a credible target, then there was a deadline halving the required votes, the idiot Simenon starts up on me for no reason, when the White wagon was almost a done thing. White had 6/7, he needed one single vote for a deadline hammer, and Simenon starts to refuse categorically to vote for White, when White was scummy as hell.

The thing is, once a player (a supposed mason) starts really aggressively to go after say, me, a whole bunch of players started to hop and vote for me for no reason whatsoever.

I pointed this out to Simenon, and he thinks he's playing fine and dandy. He says he won't lay off me tomorrow, for chrissakes. And he thinks that's his "distancing" is working wonders and his "masons" Ether and Flameaxe are thoroughly fooled.

On Day 1 to boot.

I felt like I was playing with my worst enemy. Every post he made, I was shaking my head. What on Earth is this guy thinking???

It's not that I don't have the same buddies. IT IS THAT I DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I PLAY WELL AS SCUM BY FORGETTING WHO MY SCUMPARTNERS ARE. THAT WAY MY REACTIONS ARE NATURAL. YOU AND ZORG FORCED MY HAND AND NOW ALL THREE OF US ARE PENDING DEATH IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

Oh. So you're upset with me and Zorg, but you think Simenon played well, and I think Simenon sold us all to the enemy.

Look. I wasn't playing "scummy." Had I been town, I would have gone kamikaze against Simenon, for his displaying his "knowledge" that White is innocent, and later that Zeppo was to be a mislynch. These were glaring mistakes to me. Why the townies didn't pick it up, is a mystery. If you look at my play objectively, I made no such mistake. But sometimes randomy wagons happen like that, and it's a pity that Simenon was whipping the horse on a wagon on the Godfather.

As for the cop claim, I know we can get out of it, we have me being insane, and we have Lemming being sane.

(1) I am making the kill orders being done by Simenon.
(2) We ought to keep Lemming alive for now. If he investigates me, I will be innocent.
(3) Tomorrow, I will announce that I have an innocent on Simenon. Hopefully, Lemming will investigate Simenon the next night.
(4) We must keep sanity issues and the possibility of scum masons to the forefront to create maximum confusion.
(5) Settling sanity issues with Lemming and me should keep both Lemming and myself alive for several days.
(6) Sanity issues will be settled with Simenon's guilt or innocence, because it will take us longest to do, and will be the most confusing.
(7) Zorg has obviously gone in lurk mode. Lay off hounding him tomorrow.

Zorg:
Keep lurking. Avoid committing to a vote. If pressured even lightly, lurk harder. We need you alive. Support the scum mason possibility, and the sane cop vs. insane cop setup. Berate Simenon

Simenon:
I am having you send the kills, in case there is a tracker. We're going to have to bus you day 3 or day 4, depending on how we are going sorting out the cop's sanities. Take one for the team. Meanwhile, make yourself most useful by going after specific players. We need you to fuel wagons on anything that moves because we need to out the DOC so that we can nightkill Lemming eventually. Attack me lightly, but go harder on townies, we need the doctor out. Chances are slim, but it's worth a shot.

MoS:
Support the scum mason possibility, and the sane cop vs. insane cop setup.

Lurking scum is a bad idea. I will put myself up if I stop hounding Zorg. I only didn't get Zorg lynched yesterday because Zeppo came up, but I will be contradicting myself if I don't go after him tomorrow. You don't have to follow me, but I'm going to have to do it. Tell Simenon to lay off me. Saying repeatedly that I am scum without evidence makes him look bad and makes people look at my posts anyways. He's putting both of us up on the chopping block with idiotic stuff like that. Feel free to quote this.

Night 2:

BM, you are blocking Lemming
Sim is killing Setael

Don't put pressure on me tomorrow. That could self-destruct in our faces. I'm in a position where I can wiggle my way out of suspicion given enough time. However, if you just relentlessly attack me, my defenses won't matter. Feel free to make me your #3ish suspicion (or lower), but no higher. Since BM hasn't said much yet this game, it would be good if he didn't have me high on his suspicion list right away. Simenon needs to find someone else to target.

BM, as the maker of crazy setups, and a guy who's been around a while, you can come in and vouch that the possibility of two cops is not a rare thing. You don't have to straight out defend me, but enough people have said this that you agreeing will just add pressure to the people attacking me.

I'm going to keep going after BM tomorrow, and I'll find another target or two.

Anything else you guys wanna bring up?

BTW, Simenon, you may think your tactics are "working", but you're drawing suspicion to yourself. Try to change it up a bit. It's true that TS basically self-destructed, but let's try not to completely destroy our team. We've all already distanced more than enough, it's time to push some mislynches before we do any majoring distancing again. Wait another two days unless something big happens.

It's ok, i've sorted the choices. I have a plan, which will basically entail me dying in the near future, but giving you and Simenon a damn good run at winning. It's pretty dependent on the events of tonight, but we'll see i guess. I dont mind you bussing me a bit tomorrow, but it is imperative that i survive 1 more day-if for nothing else than for my role. In fact, bus me as hard as you like, but once i have claimed, give me the benefit of the doubt. I'll die the next day, but we'll be in a significantly stronger position as a group.

And i should note that in my opinion, victory in this game is reliant on you surviving to endgame. So good luck with that.

BM

Night 3:

Ok first off, Ether isnt a great kill choice anyway. I'd rather nightkill Erg0 atm, simply because he is the main momentum pushing my lynch. Kill him, and we resolve some of that, and also, it might show MoS in a better light if he comes up town.

Roleblocking Skruffs obvobv.

I'm pretty happy with how the day went. We have plenty of mislynches to push now, and i don't think we will need to bus tomorrow at least. To be honest, i reckon i can survive tomorrow. There is a very strong case for Setael to be scum at this point, and personally, i think thats where our Bookie choice should go. Me dying tomorrow would not be good, as it would lend alot of strength to Skruffs's claim, and mean that we would need to NK him, and we would only have 1 NK. Not good.

MoS-dont worry about my pressure on you. Eventually, one of us is going to get lynched, and the other one will look as good as gold. Dont worry though, tomorrow i will be pushing Setael first and foremost.

I also think the Yama lynch might hold off some of the accusations on me, being one of the few people to actively avoid it.

BM

Simenon wrote:
Actually, Ether is a mason, so she's not a very good kill.


Ether also trusts me, so I don't want her dead Razz

Setael would be an ok kill, but also a good lynch to push (having replaced Flare, he's the only guy I could push instead of BM tomorrow). I think Elmo would be a good kill, as would Skruffs (chance of protection, though). Suggestions?

We're roleblocking Skruffs as usual.

Good job yesterday, Simenon, I don't think you got any real suspicion on you. Neither did I, so that helps. I was hoping to have BM slip under the radar for the rest of the day so we wouldn't have people turning back to him tomorrow, but we're out of luck.

I'm going to predict that BM is going to be lynched, unless y'all really think we can save him at this point.

BM, remember when I told you not to try and get me lynched and how that was a good idea for the both of us? Try to remember that next time, because you attack on me is going to get you lynched. You haven't made any good arguments against me, and everyone is going to lynch you if you try to stay persistent on me. You still have to attack me a little, but you'll have a better chance if you slowly back off and find a new target.

And my support of ZONEACE has nothing to do with my alignment. It didn't before, and it still doesn't. Part of the reason I support ZONEACE as scum is because it's something I would do if I was town, so it becomes a null/town tell for me. Asserting that I'm scum because I defended ZONEACE on Day 1, when he was getting attacked for being hiimself, is only going to get you into more trouble.

I can agree with the Erg0 kill, and I'll try to push the Setael wagon as a secondary wagon while I push against you, but I won't push you very hard, just putting my vote back on you because I've established taht I suspect you. You can probably ignore me for the most part, unless I actually ask you to respond to something. I'm fine with predicting Setael as the bookie choice, but I think it'll be harder than you think. Either way, though, we can try.

sounds good to me. If i do die tomorrow, hopefully you should be able to survive quite far, but a bit of advice would be, dont bus Simenon. I expect you to make it to endgame with ease, but once there, its gonna be hard for a town not to consider you lynchable.

Good Luck!

BM

I'm really pissed that I didn't get in the bookie choice. I must've thought I'd sent it in and actually hadn't, but I didn't think about it cuz I thought I had sent it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL. I played a crappy game, and yet I managed to eliminate every player who caught onto me without drawing any further suspicion on myself? Uh huh.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did not mean strategy wise MoS. Your general strategy was very good. I meant the actual game play. Your attack on me day 5, for example was particularly daft and OMGUSy. I pointed it out but people seemed too interested in Ether's theory of why you couldn't be scum (a theory, I remember calling "a bit meh"). And then there was a post on day 6 (after I killed Elmo and was NKed) in which you tentatively put forward a theory as to how none of the masons could be scum, and I was sure you were scum. After I died, I guessed both you and Sim to Patrick on ScumChat correctly so I was amazed at the fact town allowed you to live. Also, there were some TS posts on D1 which didn't look good for you ("Always good to keep up a bit of pressure on MoS"), but again, no one was interested in them.

Simenon too, as I pointed out to Patrick on ScumChat the scumiest mason around. I can't believe the town blew it away like this. Terrible.

By the time I was attacking for you, I wasn't playing for the long term, I was playing to get you killed and get Simenon to endgame. I was pretty sure that even if I died, Simenon would be able to win the game for the scum, so I was just trying to do as much damage as I could while dodging BooKitty's attacks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The roleblocker is probably a more useful all round role, and in this game it meant the cop was disabled the minute he claimed. The bookie becomes more useful later on, when it becomes easier to guess the lynches, and it can mean the town is in lylo earlier than they expect it. The mafia could also bet on one of their number to be lynched, which meant that technically, no lynching on day 7 would have been a bad option for the town (because with 3 town v 2 mafia, the scum can bet on one of their own to be lynched and simply have them commit suicide for the win).

oh yeh i forgot about that. I dont know about the rest of you, but i never realised we could bet on OURSELVES to be lynched. That couldve made things alot easier...

BM

I knew we could bet on ourselves, and I was going to bet on you the day you got lynched, but I somehow didn't send in the choice. As for some of the earlier nights, I had instructed TS and the rest of the mafia to send the choice for me, because I was going to forget I was scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, we pretty much kept ZONEACE alive on purpose all game. And my defense of him Day 1 had nothing to do with my alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you think we killed people like BooKitty instead? BooKitty and Setael I scared me more than any other players in this game, as far as threats to the mafia went.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was surprised no one pinned BooKitty's death on me, either. We came into the day prepared to throw as much WIFOM on that as possible, and no one even went after me for it, so I left it be.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Would've been nice if Niv

's attack of Sim would've

made

more

sense

. Oh well.

paraphrased for truth.

QFT

[Mastermind of Sin]

What was I agreeing with you on? I certainly wasn't doing it on purpose, and I didn't suspect that I was on your list. You didn't put any pressure on me the entire game...

[Mastermind of Sin]

BooKitty and Setael scared me more than any other players in this game, as far as threats to the mafia went.

Highest compliment I've been paid in a mafia game.

Only Setael the First, though. Setael the Second spent too much time fighting with BooKitty, which made the two of them lynch targets for a while, which distracted the town from the mafia. =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aye, TS made this game a lot harder for scum than it had to be. I think had the town played better, TS's actions would have crippled the mafia. As it was, her actions were a decent balancing factor to keep the game close. Had I known we had a traitor out there, it would've helped a lot, because then I'd be able to factor that in when analyzing what vote manipulation would be needed to get innocent people lynched.