Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[armlx]

Hi, rereading tonight.

[armlx]

Ok, maybe not tonight. Depends on how long it takes to reread the other game I just replaced into.

[armlx]

K, not rereading tonight, prob not tomorrow either, def this weekend tho.

[armlx]

1/3rd through reread, already I can see Oman needs to die. Hell, I could tell that before D1 was over even. I'll vote once I'm done. Also not liking farside too much at this point, but I have a natural tendency to not like what she posts I think. Too tired to put a full case up right now, but I'll try to have it this weekend.

Fonz's logic on the Oman wagon confuses me, but is still logic of some sort. Also like his action D3 to find out how the game was set up. Leaning pro-town here.

Shteven seems good enough to me. Leaning Pro-town

dahill (well, those he replaced) are sorta null to me. Wouldn't say he is town, but lynch username and Oman first by far. Things like FOSing then double posting to Vote Space are throwing me off.

Something I found mildly awkward (in a this is bad play way) is that Cipher's investigations were all on people I felt were obviously pro-town, except Laptop. Please redirect your efforts towards those who are most scummy instead.

I'll have to reread again to see who are most likely mafiates vs. SK, mainly looking vote counts, but my first instinct is Oman + Farside scum with Laptop/dahill SK.

[armlx]

Last post was sorta stream of thought through out a reread, didn't mean to post till I was done rereading.

This post is unreal scummy.

Wagon slowing.

Makes me wonder.

I might unvote.

AKA "Hmm, maybe I don't have to bus him after all".

Same with Farside swapping off.

After LTG's pre-emptive claim I'm leaning dahill SK.

K, finished, def Omanscum.

Vote Oman

.

[armlx]

What is your post even about? Your quote doesn't even match up with what you are talking about.

Would you like to try that post from the top and make it comprehensible?

Also, while I can't really accurately answer for LML, would you mind pointing me to where these issues are enumerated? Quite frankly its about what I would expect from him, as he is on my short list of policy vigs (aka N0 kill them as vig) for good reason.

[armlx]

Ok, I realize the 3rd time through, mainly a misquote causing the confusion here.

Mainly my suspicions of user name come from Farside's behavior mirroring very closely the behavior of Oman. I though I said that somewhere, but can't find it any more.

[armlx]

I figured I should cover all the unconfirmeds, as I doubt any of the cop-confirmeds are SK, save an outside chance on you.

[armlx]

Things I don't like about Oman:

Skating through the early game.

Okay, I'm back from my holidays guys (I'll change the sig soon )

I missed the whole of D1, but firstly I'm astounded that Jessie claimed D1, and then investigated the townie that died.

Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.

FoS: Phate

for that, and

IGMEOY: Jessie

for that conicendence.

FoS Laptop Gun

For somehow getting "SK" out of Phates post, stinks of knowledge.

FOSing everyone with no real vote at the time basically gives him free reign to hop on any of the above wagons.

Vote: Oman because his casual FoS on me smells like swaying with public opinion.

Thats a horrible Day 2 vote.

Terrible defense against a valid vote, just trying to invalidate it without reason.

Well, my belief currently is that vollkan is right, and so is LTG. Basically: We should speculate, by no means give Jessie a free pass, but definatly Keep our eyes on.

I'm going to upgrade my fos to a

Vote Phate

Mostly for his terrible vote on me (no, this is not OMGUS, he voted me for a really poor reason).

No, definitely is OMGUS. Phate was one of the most townish people to me at this point (I don't read revealed roles until they come up in thread).

The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.

At the time of this post, Oman had made 1 serious vote all game.

Justin has convinced me (not to mention that arrogant tone that Kabenon used just cries for one of these).

Vote Kabenon

The Fonz: Are you opposed to me? Earlier I stated a thought on mafia theory and you gave a "please explain" and then you (I suppose Jokingly) did it again. Do you disagree with my point of view or think me scum or something?

I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.

2 things I don't like here: The kabenon wagon and the vollkan comment later. The first might be because I have seen kabenon die 3 times as vanilla townie to date with similar behavior and found him to be pretty obvious town as such, the later because everything I have heard about vollkan is the opposite and it reeks of "Phear the good player" logic.

His 40 minute thought post seems to me like over justification of his actions.

Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.

It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.

Suggests a strong farside connection given his attack on Phate earlier and then Phate's later confirmation of scum.

Why would you assume that when he didn't vote for either one of us.

I did not consider this. /Retract.

It's not only that he hammered, but also the way he did it.

Ah, it just seems like a lot of effort for scum to actually JUMP on a wagon that is already going to deadline lynch. I see what you mean though, its quite a jump.

The important thing here is that the reason he finds for hammering is something very dodgy.

THIS is a good point, he searched for a reason, the guilty mind.

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

I don't think randomly lynching among people the cop talked about is a good idea, Oman.

His day 2 discussion was on

Phate

[/b], Kab, and farside22.

I'm shocked you take that position.

I fail to see how my thoughts on this are relevant at all to your actions.

Damn I hate to talk before the person has answered. but this actually references a previous point. I think its newbie.


That defence being said: The hammer is damn interesting. I'm going to review this "180".

I cut out a theory section here, but he jumps off his farside comment very quickly, defends Space, and for some reason that Shteven response seems to rub me the wrong way.

His next posts regarding the Spacecase wagon seem to imply a wishy-washy stance, then he diverts to farside again.

Massive scuminess in FOSing someone because they didn't want to rush a lynch before the person could respond.

why wasn't it interesting when you weren't buying it in your response to Shteven?

Two reasons. Vollkan put it better, and by that time he was already lurking.

So, you say multiple times that you believe that SC is just a newb, but then turn around and vote him for lurking?

Since when can newbies not be scum? I felt the reversal was NOT a newbie scumtell, I felt lurking was.

As you've not weighed in on the rest of the case against SC (other than to dispute it) this would lead me to believe that you believe that SC is a lurking townie, right?

Look, town or scum, it doesn't really bother me. I think he is likely to be scum (like I said, newbie town doesn't lurk when under review like this), but either way, he's anti-town. Yes, I am a "lynch all lurkers" and yes if he claimed vig or something I'd unvote him.

Once quite a few other folks were talking about SC's quick 180, however, you figured you'd hop on that wagon.

But not because of what others are doing, because of my own rules.

If anybody looks to be scumbuddies with SC, I'd say you're a pretty good candidate....

I don't understand. On what is essentially a weak wagon, why would I jump on? It would be much easier, as a scumbuddy, to refute this wagon 'till death and use WIFOM to escape. I've done it before...I think.

Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating. FOS Oman

HoS LTG

I think you're scum.

That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.

his defense of spacecase followed by joining it based on lurking is very suspect.

I'm a fan of the LAL meta.

His quick reversal on Spacecase (innocent newbie -> lurking scum) makes him suspect.

Do I have to say it again....I think I will: I only reversed my postion on him when the situation changed. I also think you should change your diagram (innocent newbie -> lurking newbie).

NEWBIES CAN BE SCUM TOO!! YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THIS THOUGHT THAT "NEWBIE" ALWAYS MEANS TOWN. NEW PEOPLE CAN BE SCUM ABOUT 1/3 OF THE TIME. RAWRRRRRR!

Pushing the lynch on weak logic is not good given the alignment, as its an easy excuse to jump off, his response to the allegations of OMGUS seems off, same with the discussion of WIFOMing out of a wagon.

However, theres one town tell here: Setting up the anti-town logic on someone who if he was mafia he would know wouldn't show up as town and he wouldn't have to talk out of that scenario like that. Definitely not major enough to blank out the rest of his posts at all though.

Nothing major up till this

Wagon slowing.

Makes me wonder.

I might unvote.

.....

A wagon slowing in that scenario does not imply town. It implies scum that isn't getting piled on / bussed very hard, and he is looking for a weak excuse to unvote.

The rest of the day he spends time playing both sides of the wagon, looking for an out while still being aggressive. Finds said out in the Rigel wagon, where he Votes/FOS's 2 non-Spacecase people.

He later admits

I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.

after he hops on the wagon.

[armlx]

The Oman case is many times stronger. I don't really have a full case on dahill/username, but like I said dahill came off as more neutral (some bad, some good) then username so username became #2 most likely by default.

[armlx]

I feel The Fonz has exhibited progressive, logical, pro-town game play so far.

[armlx]

He's suspicious by process of elimination.

[armlx]

L-2 aka claim time.

[armlx]

Except Oman, yes.

[armlx]

Ah, sorry all the replacements are confusing me. I did have a secondary reason for voting username: I found farside scummy. A lot of her D2 actions I felt were pretty opportunistic/poor, especially the vote on the person who hadn't real votes with 2 FOS's just chilling on people for mediocre reasons, as well as the argument with OmanObvscum.

[armlx]

Wow, I feel so dumb. I actually posted that much earlier. I just forgot about it and tricked myself into thinking farside was just dead or something.

Mainly my suspicions of user name come from Farside's behavior mirroring very closely the behavior of Oman. I though I said that somewhere, but can't find it any more.

[armlx]

Hi dcorbe. Sorry you had to replace into this scenario. Please claim your role immediately or be lynched.

[armlx]

If I claim a pro-town role, you either believe me and give me a pass, or you don't and I get lynched.

Yeah, thats sort of the point.

[armlx]

If your claim is something we can confirm, then we do that and you don't get lynched if you aren't lying.

[armlx]

Rather you claim now so if you are going to lie, you don't get to reread and make a better lie based on that.

[armlx]

You fail to see my point. Some roles are inherently confirmable as their night action leaves a trace of its occurrence. I'm not talking about confirming based on in thread actions.

[armlx]

No. First claim, then defend.

[armlx]

You have 4 votes on you, plus 2 more people at least (CIpher and vollkan) who have epxressed interest in lynching you. You not being lynched right away isn't so clear cut.

also, the main reason to wait once someone replaces in at L-2 is to get a role claim. Just saying.

And I have made up my mind, about your actions that it. Claiming can change things.

[armlx]

Armix,

I'm a little suspicious of your own motives. This is starting to sound like an attempt to divert attention away from yourself. Keeping me on the defensive is going to cast doubt on me and placate your own motives.

Please see post 910. And Fonz's post 908, and everything else. Deflection to your aggressors is not your out here, sorry scum.

[armlx]

I was merely trying to push him into claiming on the spot, rather then give him time to be able to think about a fake claim. If he is pro-town, it should have been easy and its the appropriate scenario to claim in. If he's not, he's going to stall for time to figure out what the best option for himself is.

That said, vanilla doesn't change anything I thought about him before.

[armlx]

L-2 with 2 more people expressing concern + 2 massive cases on you is not one of the times you don't want to claim.

[armlx]

If someone is under moderate pressure (not at claim range), I agree. But when they are in claim range, the claim should be forced ASAP.

[armlx]

My point is he claims first, then he rereads the thread and comments, then we lynch him (or not if his claim checks out). This order makes attempts at a false claim much less guided.

[armlx]

vollkan actually has a legitimate point here. The only way you as SK can win is if you claim and let the town direct your kills and we miss every single time and then screw up even more.

[armlx]

I'm confused as to why you can't be specific about numbers here. The game is pretty much all open and calculateable here kill wise.

[armlx]

I see. Gotcha.

[armlx]

dcorbe has no incentive not to claim SK in his scenario. Vanilla claim isn't going to get him anywhere.

[armlx]

All I have done is snipe, eh? No posting of full cases, long posts analyzing the game up to this point. No, none of that.

[armlx]

Things I don't like about Oman:

Skating through the early game.

Okay, I'm back from my holidays guys (I'll change the sig soon )

I missed the whole of D1, but firstly I'm astounded that Jessie claimed D1, and then investigated the townie that died.

Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.

FoS: Phate

for that, and

IGMEOY: Jessie

for that conicendence.

FoS Laptop Gun

For somehow getting "SK" out of Phates post, stinks of knowledge.

FOSing everyone with no real vote at the time basically gives him free reign to hop on any of the above wagons.

Vote: Oman because his casual FoS on me smells like swaying with public opinion.

Thats a horrible Day 2 vote.

Terrible defense against a valid vote, just trying to invalidate it without reason.

Well, my belief currently is that vollkan is right, and so is LTG. Basically: We should speculate, by no means give Jessie a free pass, but definatly Keep our eyes on.

I'm going to upgrade my fos to a

Vote Phate

Mostly for his terrible vote on me (no, this is not OMGUS, he voted me for a really poor reason).

No, definitely is OMGUS. Phate was one of the most townish people to me at this point (I don't read revealed roles until they come up in thread).

The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.

At the time of this post, Oman had made 1 serious vote all game.

Justin has convinced me (not to mention that arrogant tone that Kabenon used just cries for one of these).

Vote Kabenon

The Fonz: Are you opposed to me? Earlier I stated a thought on mafia theory and you gave a "please explain" and then you (I suppose Jokingly) did it again. Do you disagree with my point of view or think me scum or something?

I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.

2 things I don't like here: The kabenon wagon and the vollkan comment later. The first might be because I have seen kabenon die 3 times as vanilla townie to date with similar behavior and found him to be pretty obvious town as such, the later because everything I have heard about vollkan is the opposite and it reeks of "Phear the good player" logic.

His 40 minute thought post seems to me like over justification of his actions.

Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.

It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.

Suggests a strong farside connection given his attack on Phate earlier and then Phate's later confirmation of scum.

Why would you assume that when he didn't vote for either one of us.

I did not consider this. /Retract.

It's not only that he hammered, but also the way he did it.

Ah, it just seems like a lot of effort for scum to actually JUMP on a wagon that is already going to deadline lynch. I see what you mean though, its quite a jump.

The important thing here is that the reason he finds for hammering is something very dodgy.

THIS is a good point, he searched for a reason, the guilty mind.

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

I don't think randomly lynching among people the cop talked about is a good idea, Oman.

His day 2 discussion was on

Phate

[/b], Kab, and farside22.

I'm shocked you take that position.

I fail to see how my thoughts on this are relevant at all to your actions.

Damn I hate to talk before the person has answered. but this actually references a previous point. I think its newbie.


That defence being said: The hammer is damn interesting. I'm going to review this "180".

I cut out a theory section here, but he jumps off his farside comment very quickly, defends Space, and for some reason that Shteven response seems to rub me the wrong way.

His next posts regarding the Spacecase wagon seem to imply a wishy-washy stance, then he diverts to farside again.

Massive scuminess in FOSing someone because they didn't want to rush a lynch before the person could respond.

why wasn't it interesting when you weren't buying it in your response to Shteven?

Two reasons. Vollkan put it better, and by that time he was already lurking.

So, you say multiple times that you believe that SC is just a newb, but then turn around and vote him for lurking?

Since when can newbies not be scum? I felt the reversal was NOT a newbie scumtell, I felt lurking was.

As you've not weighed in on the rest of the case against SC (other than to dispute it) this would lead me to believe that you believe that SC is a lurking townie, right?

Look, town or scum, it doesn't really bother me. I think he is likely to be scum (like I said, newbie town doesn't lurk when under review like this), but either way, he's anti-town. Yes, I am a "lynch all lurkers" and yes if he claimed vig or something I'd unvote him.

Once quite a few other folks were talking about SC's quick 180, however, you figured you'd hop on that wagon.

But not because of what others are doing, because of my own rules.

If anybody looks to be scumbuddies with SC, I'd say you're a pretty good candidate....

I don't understand. On what is essentially a weak wagon, why would I jump on? It would be much easier, as a scumbuddy, to refute this wagon 'till death and use WIFOM to escape. I've done it before...I think.

Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating. FOS Oman

HoS LTG

I think you're scum.

That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.

his defense of spacecase followed by joining it based on lurking is very suspect.

I'm a fan of the LAL meta.

His quick reversal on Spacecase (innocent newbie -> lurking scum) makes him suspect.

Do I have to say it again....I think I will: I only reversed my postion on him when the situation changed. I also think you should change your diagram (innocent newbie -> lurking newbie).

NEWBIES CAN BE SCUM TOO!! YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THIS THOUGHT THAT "NEWBIE" ALWAYS MEANS TOWN. NEW PEOPLE CAN BE SCUM ABOUT 1/3 OF THE TIME. RAWRRRRRR!

Pushing the lynch on weak logic is not good given the alignment, as its an easy excuse to jump off, his response to the allegations of OMGUS seems off, same with the discussion of WIFOMing out of a wagon.

However, theres one town tell here: Setting up the anti-town logic on someone who if he was mafia he would know wouldn't show up as town and he wouldn't have to talk out of that scenario like that. Definitely not major enough to blank out the rest of his posts at all though.

Nothing major up till this

Wagon slowing.

Makes me wonder.

I might unvote.

.....

A wagon slowing in that scenario does not imply town. It implies scum that isn't getting piled on / bussed very hard, and he is looking for a weak excuse to unvote.

The rest of the day he spends time playing both sides of the wagon, looking for an out while still being aggressive. Finds said out in the Rigel wagon, where he Votes/FOS's 2 non-Spacecase people.

He later admits

I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.

after he hops on the wagon.

Analytical enough for you?

[armlx]

No, that logic is poor, as if someone blatantly defends you then you turn up mafia on death, the connection is pretty obvious.

Most of the time, btw, there is no benefit of the doubt in mafia. You will find 60%+ of lynches happen with some kind of doubt. The rest are usually people who failed to confirm a confirmable claim or who have a cop investigation.

[armlx]

No, from the point of view of the mob, the odds are better with 1 player alive then 1 alive who obviously tried to protect the last one lynched.

[armlx]

That's not quite what I meant, dahill. People acted as if they had only read the first part where he said was not mafia, and was asking him why he left out the possibility of him being the SK. He claimed a specific role, townie. That doesn't mean he isn't lying; he could still be the SK, but he has explicitly claimed he is not, so asking for a clarification of if he's the SK doesn't make much sense.

It does as the SK has every reason to lie if it could get them out of a loss. However, in his scenario if he is SK he loses regardless as we are still lynching him and his only out is to claim SK and hope we decide to direct his kills and a bunch of mistakes happen on top of that.

[armlx]

It at least gives him half a chance at an out.

[armlx]

Your last 2 posts disagree with each other. 1st you say no one has hammered him is a bad sign, aka the mafia haven't quick lynched him, then you say everyone scummy is voting him aka the mafia are already on pushing the lynch.

You subtle defenses of him are bringing you back into play in my book.

[armlx]

Concur, Rigel is gone from the site by what I know, just straight up replace him.

[armlx]

You subtle defenses of him are bringing you back into play in my book.

Note: This only really applies if/when he flips mafia, not if he flips SK.

[armlx]

Actually, the SK would still have a slim chance of victory if he claimed now (see my earlier post). dcorbe should get a chance to claim SK if that's what he is, otherwise I'm thinking this wagon is probably going to end in his lynch. To be clear: the town categorically does not want to lynch the SK today.

I think that the makeup of the wagon may have something to with activity, though that doesn't completely explain it.

I've already claimed. If I go back on my word and claim "SK" all that does is provide even more ammunition for my aggressors to sit back and say "that's a scummy move" and lynch me.

I'm walking on egg shells with spiked shoes here

You're inexperienced at this game, which would explain the gross error in your post here.

First off, if you are town you absolutely should not claim SK under any circumstances. Let me stress that firmly. The reasons for this are related to my other 'reasons' that, as before, I would prefer not to have to reveal in thread.

That said, if you are SK then claiming SK most definitely will

not

result in your lynch. Maybe it's because you lack experience, but the reason for this should be

pretty obvious

. To give you some idea as to why I am advocating this: SK claiming will cause both the SK's chances of success to elevate, the town's chances to elevant, and the mafia's chances to plummet.

I will confirm these are all sound strategical arguments.

[armlx]

Claim: SK

Dcorbe, you may be interested (and probably very pissed off) to know that everything I have been saying about it being good for the SK to claim was complete and utter bullshit. I laid a trap, and you fell right into it.

Actually, you accidentally made a good point. Its not like he wasn't going to be lynched today, so as SK it would be worth half a shot at everyone else punting the game to him. Of course, its equally likely to be what you are suggesting (a mafia ploy to live longer). Meh, was leaning Oman mafia as I actually saw solid connections to him, so vote stands.

Kabenon wagon needs to be examined really well, it was one of the dumbest parts of this game IMHO.

[armlx]

Note: Just saying "he is confirmed anti-town" is not enough reason at this point to lynch him. The real reason is stalling on a claim + everything Oman did + stalling on reclaiming SK + Oman's connections all point to mafia over SK.

[armlx]

Vote Username

for the Farside -> Oman connections + acting like Oman did.

[armlx]

On another note, I think the events of yesterday thoroughly refute any justification for Lynch-all-Liars. I lied and it scored us a mafia scalp.

1) I do disagree with LaL in some situations. It is still valid in many.

2) I don't think you really lied yesterday. What you did is A) not really lying on the scale LaL is used and 2) actually a valid point despite the fact you intended it not to be.

But obv you shouldn't be lynched.

[armlx]

The only + I see for username is his early on the Oman wagon, which contradicts the Oman + Farside issues I saw earlier.

[armlx]

The main connection is Oman pairing Farside with Phate as possible investigations, then auto-retracting after farside responds.

Farside also said 1 day she wanted to vote Spacecase, then 3 days later despite her previous conviction just switched to dahill.

However, in contrast with this is iam's auto vote farside and first vote on Oman. I forgot about the former, so I'm starting to rethink this.

[armlx]

iam's auto vote farside

This is obviously a mistake, but I'm not entirely sure what you actually meant to say.

Err, yeah, I mean Oman vote. You had it set up a lot easier to just wagon dahill then to bus oman. You could still be SK, but lynching mafia and SK at this point is basically the same thing.

Unvote

after all that thinking.

I can see a Shteven lynch after how he defended dcorbe noncommittally yesterday, as well as the whole vote/unvote thing, but a dahill one is probably just better and Shteven did bus Spacecase pretty hard if he is scum.

Vote dahill

[armlx]

I still think Fonz has been pro-town this game, even before yesterday. Its possible that I'm not looking at his actions in the right player frame, but I doubt it.

[armlx]

Theres a lot of interesting things about dahill's posts, like trying to focus on the SK like there's a difference.

[armlx]

Duh! If we go after mafia, then dahill dies.

Amirite dahill?

I believe we call this a zing.

Mod Note: Redundant double post deleted.

[armlx]

Claim and/or die time dahill.

[armlx]

I don't get what you are trying to argue here Fonz.

Also agree with dahill's method of decision being BS, but thats kinda a moot point now.

[armlx]

Yeah, placement on that wagon is quite irrel and just based on when you were on to post after the cop claim. The only suspects there should be those that didn't join the wagon first chance they got.

[armlx]

I'm leaning username SK, Shteven mafia right now, but in no way am I comfortable with finalizing a vote on either of those for the moment. I need to reread again.

[armlx]

Yeah, I'm liking Shteven as scum for jumping on that, plus the attempt to stall out the dcorbe/oman lynch. I have to go back again and look to see if theres anything I missed earlier about him.

I also suggest a Concordet system to show opinions for now. I think it will be very useful in finding scum at this point for various reasons. The 4 unconfirmeds should rank the other 3 in likely hood of being scum.

1. Shteven
2. username
3. Fonz

[armlx]

Any particular reasoning/evidence that led you to name the fonz specifically as SK and armlx specifically as mafia as opposed to just scum?

Also interested, though I can see a couple reasons he would say that.

I've been rereading some of the thread, and while I haven't covered every post, much of Farside22's behavior on day 2 strikes me as scummy.

Said this earlier, but then in context of username's posts, I don't know. The 2 sorta clash.

[armlx]

So, among the unconfirmeds, 3 points for 1st on a list, 2 for second, 1 for last, going of Shteven's last list of the two

Shteven- 7 points (3 from armlx, 3 from Fonz, 1 from username)
Fonz- 7 Points (3 from Shteven, 3 from username, 1 from armlx)
Armlx- 5 points (2 from Fonz, 2 from username, 1 from Shteven)
Username- 5 points (2 from Armlx, 2 from Shteven, 1 from Fonz)

We clearly have 2 tiers among the unconfirmeds, the very scummy, and the moderately scummy.

I'm interested in Vollkan's comments or additions to this.

[armlx]

He'd stated previously that he thought dahill was SK (also without explanation).

Untrue. I said Oman was obv mafia, Farside-Oman link meant you were also mafia, and dahill didn't really have a link and was clearly SK for that.

Basically everyone agrees Shteven is quite suspicious though, I just want to hear vollkan's thoughts before I vote.

[armlx]

Shteven, I don't understand the point of your last post in response to Fonz or how it proves him wrong. I don't see him attacking you for agreeing with people anywhere.

[armlx]

Shteven, I don't understand the point of your last post in response to Fonz or how it proves him wrong. I don't see him attacking you for agreeing with people anywhere.

[armlx]

The tier issue was partially based on point totals, partially based on the fact that 2 people had 0 first place slots and the other two people each had 2.

[armlx]

And two people (the scum) gave their rankings entirely out of self-interest.

No, only partially. The scum are just as interested in seeing the other scum lynched today as the town are, as 2-1 is generally more winnable then 1-1-1.

[armlx]

Ok. While you are right, I still think you aren't using valid logic to argue against it.

And Shteven, I realize the tally is unreliable because people can be wrong. However, we have to rely on people to win the game and make decisions, so.....

I'm trying to figure if Username's vote change is legitimate or self serving.

[armlx]

Vote Shteven

I am confident enough with my choice to do this.

[armlx]

Shteven = Mafia, Username = SK.

[armlx]

I'd say Fonz is SK, and Armlx mafia. And since I haven't been able to drum up much support for Fonz, I'll try to take the hint.

What's the hint? That you are shamelessly band wagoning?

[armlx]

I imagine something about accepting one's own lynch as inevitable being along the lines of self-voting.

Not in the slightest actually, unless you stop posting logical things because of it.

[armlx]

Umm, it would have been better to wait and have vollkan show up.

[armlx]

Meh, you were just waiting for me to hammer anyway. I just have a really hard time believing you're town here.

I don't. As scum in this scenario you have absolutely no reason to self hammer as that would be conceding a game you could in theory get a win out of.

BTW, on the topic Fonz, there is 1 instance where self voting is ok. If the scenario right now was 3/2 and shteven was scum, sellf hammer would be +EV as it stops vollkan from showing up and posting.

[armlx]

I disagree about the random stage.

The point of random voting is to be able to observe the clearly non-random trails that occur from it. The town loses nothing by doing it, so random voting is a 100% pro-town action. Therefore, not random voting is bad as its deliberately not doing a pro-town action.

Self voting is more or less the same as not random voting, as the point of random voting is to see interactions between players and self voting doesn't do that.

[armlx]

encourage opportunists to attack you,

This falls into the whole trap setting issue, which I disagree with. Traps only catch lazy people, not necessarily scum.

[armlx]

I see what you are saying, but I can't say I agree with your methods.

[armlx]

Killed username for 2 reasons

1) Thought he was more likely mafia

2) If fonz was mafia I was sure he would kill me. If username was, I was unsure he would.

Dahill, I know what you are talking about as well btw.

[armlx]

SK is by far my favorite role (well, tied with pro-town SK aka vig). Needs something extra though. I think I'm going to post in the Open game discussion about making the SK unNKable.