Mafia 80: Nice Shot! Mafia. Game over, results at 1381

[destructor]

I noticed killa seven and ckd playing tag team throughout the game:

BM, so you werent trying to find scum Day 1, why?

he was busy gettin the doc vigged.

but fake claiming a cop investigation on the doc is protown?

so you think BM was trying to pull a NK while asking for the Doc protection openly? If he was trying to sacrafice himself as you are defending him as, why did he have to say he had a scum investigation on X? Why couldnt he just blatantly and obviously breadcrumb cop?

also, I note you didnt address my question about where you got that it is common for vanillas to do this.

I love the way in order to prove your point, you insist on emphasising that Xtoxm was the Doc. I do have to wonder if you would be pushing this atall, if Xtoxm had turned up vanilla. Its funny that you are trying to insinuate that i am somehow scum who knows the entire setup.

Why breadcrumb when i could claim? Its the same thing really. Just more up front and less confusing. We've already established why i claimed Cop guilty on Xtoxm. I thought he was scum. Again, what better than for a vanilla to nail scum on his first day?

I'm not sure how common it is for vanillas to do this. But certainly in this case it makes sense- especially knowing my personality. And it isnt exactly an unknown tactic- it's one of the first things you learn as a newbie.

BM

so your admitting it wasnt a joke and you did intend to get him killed?
nice. my vote stays

so nobody is going to join me onto a CKD wagon?

CKD, what about you?

BM

did u re join this game just to wagon ckd?

Given that and his lurking, I'm pretty sure he's lurker scum.

Vote: killa seven

[destructor]

You mean his target claims? (Post 1051)

Why would ckd think that would draw attention to him? In Night 2 there were two kills anyway, so he didn't really implicate killa seven at all. When you asked him about his targets, his response regarding killa seven even looks like distancing.

I blocked K7, because I was trying to find the killer...and something about his play on Day 2 stuck out at me.

No elaboration, plenty of room to bus him if he needed to.

[destructor]

Also, what makes you think he claimed falsely?

[destructor]

Oh right, I didn't think that if k7 is scum, ckd would have been lying when he said he blocked him. I still don't see how it it would be a point for k7 innocence, though.

I think it's possible that ckd really did roleblock farside Night 3 and thought she was a non-Mafia killer. I did consider that farside was a Serial Killer as I was reading, but that's about as far as I went with regards to his target claims. I don't think there's much to be gained by looking into it further. Do you?

[destructor]

My only concern is that K7 is a very easy wagon at this point in the game.

Since I'm the one who bought him up as a suspect, are you saying you think I might be opportunistically jumping on an easy target? If not, what's the concern?

[destructor]

Assuming 2 scum left, a mislynch could lose us the game today. If we no lynch and force scum to kill tonight, we narrow the pool of suspects. We'd still lose if we mislynched but the chances of it happening would be lower.

I am unsettled by BM's preemptive criticism of a k7 wagon.

[destructor]

Alabaska, who do you think is scum?

k7, post 974 wasn't about a BM lynch. Why did you just soft-claim?

[destructor]

Alabaska, who do you think the last scum are?

[destructor]

Vote NoLynch

Though it is incredibly obvious that Destructor and Alabaska are the last scum.

Or BM is fooling me.

Eh?

[destructor]

asdf

So, here's what I was thinking. Alabaska agrees that k7 is an easy wagon and FOS's me for it. This tells me he's thinking I'm scum and k7 is town, right? He also says he thinks pop is town. Who does that leave as the last scum? One of BM and camn. But he agreed with BM about the k7 wagon and he'd have to be a bit thick to think that camn is scum. This is why I'm very interested in knowing who he thinks the last scum is.

I didn't want to post this before he actually answered since it makes things easier for him and gives scum info for a night kill, but with people saying they think it's obvious that I'm scum I figured I should probably be a little more frank about what I'm thinking, which is that killa seven and Alabaska J are the last scum. I'm mildly suspicious of BM for how quiet he became about a ckd lynch yesterday, but I don't really find that too compelling.

And seriously, why am I obviously scum?

[destructor]

Your halfhearted case against K7, Your distancing with Alabaska, your"misread" of CKD's last day......

all suspect.

Gorborage was suspect, and so are you.

Misread: why would I pretend not to notice my scum-buddies fake claim? Is that even intuitive? *cue WIFOM*

Distancing? - read post above.

k7 case: When someone lurks it's hard to make a compelling case against them - this why, by its nature, it's good for scum and bad for town. At the time that I posted my "case", k7 had made 15 posts, 4 of which were "/prodded" or "reading" posts, 1 that saids "*runs*" leaving 10 that could be considered content. I'd say my case covers a pretty good portion of his actual contributions to the game.

[destructor]

I'm mildly suspicious of BM for how quiet he became about a ckd lynch yesterday, but I don't really find that too compelling.

And there was also the early pulling of steam away from a k7 wagon that I thought was completely unnecessary.

Also, I did my read backwards, so I still have to read about 25 or so pages (most of Day 1 and 2). I haven't taken many notes of MME, who BMII replaced. This might change my read of the game, but I thought the last two days gave me a pretty good read on most of the living players. Making my case on k7, though, I checked Coron's posts, which were equally insightful.

[destructor]

Here's the deal.

You have been around. You know how to play. You know how to sub in.

So.. as a townie, you would CAREFULLY examine how scum died. You would be particular about your reread in this area.

As scum.. YOU DON"T CARE.

You simply care about how to make crap cases against townies. So you neglect your scumbuddies false claim.

This is pretty speculative. Do you have a meta on me?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that I am good enough at this game to know how to replace into a game properly, but at the same time, I'm bad at it because I don't take my scum buddies' actions into account. This is erring on the inconsistent side.

Unless you actually bring to light a meta on me to reflect your argument I feel anything said about it will be meaningless. Your argument depends on me having a consistent playstyle on replacing in as town. I've never made a claim on this either way, so it shouldn't be my responsibility to prove or disprove my meta. I'm not going to delve into this unless

you

(or someone else) make a case on it. I don't meta like that. Check my MD posts.

Maybe Alabaska and you are simply distancing, which is why he pegs you as scum, and you MILDLY attack him. Not Too much to look like a Bus, but enough to get credit if he flipped.

I didn't attack him even mildly until I said I thought he was scum. What do you make of the explanation I gave for my questions to him?

It would be a decent play. . but you forgot one thing: CKD made it woefully clear that K7 is town.

I really don't get this. How did ckd show that killa seven is town?

---

What are your thoughts on Camn?

I think she's town.

Quiet? really? 0.o

Please explain.

As I took my notes, I noticed that in Day 3 you were more vocal and active in making a case on ckd. Your activity in Day 4 was noticeably lower. But that's why I said I didn't find the point that compelling. You were less active overall, not just in relation to ckd. Like I said, though, I have no read on MME yet.

[destructor]

Maybe Alabaska and you are simply distancing, which is why he pegs you as scum, and you MILDLY attack him. Not Too much to look like a Bus, but enough to get credit if he flipped.

I didn't attack him even mildly until I said I thought he was scum. What do you make of the explanation I gave for my questions to him?

About this, I should add that the first time I asked him who he thought was scum was a pretty straight attempt to get some content out of him. In his last post all he said was that he thought pop was town, which didn't tell me anything, really. I wanted to see him scum hunt.

[destructor]

camn, you seem to be concerning yourself with how I read ckd's claim over anything else he did. Do you think it wasn't a town priority for me to see who was linked to lynched scum? You don't think it looks like k7 seemed to go out of his way to agree with or defend ckd? Maybe this ties in with my last question too. Also, what motivation can you see for k7 to have lurked without explanation?

And I

would

like you to answer all the questions I asked in my last post. Especially the one about ckd showing that k7 is town.

BM, I have reasons, obviously, but I don't think it's good play to explain why a player is innocent without cause. camn isn't in danger of being lynched, so I won't make a case for her innocence. Is there another reason I should?

[destructor]

If you didnt think it was a good idea to explain suspicions today, why are we even talking now? Why haven't you voted No-Lynch?

I wasn't intending to No Lynch when the day started.

Also, I never said explaining suspicion was bad. I was talking about arguing for someone's innocence.

Don't you think this day's been productive so far? I'd really like to see more content from k7 and Alabaska before it ends.

1 valid reason you should, is because you made a statement without anything to back it up. I was interested to see how you would explain yourself, and so far all you have done is avoid commenting.

With good reason.

[destructor]

I dunno if I'm getting exactly what you're saying (it's late), but I do realise that making a case for or against someone can be two sides on the same coin in this context. But where we are in this game (a no lynch away from lylo), I think it's important for every innocent to make their suspicions clear because they might not be around tomorrow.

I would say that I'm going to vote no lynch eventually, but I think a k7 with a vote on him is more likely to post than one without. There.

Also, I'm rereading k7's 1124, and unless I've missed something about the setup, it's making me go wtf. Anyone else?

[destructor]

pop, I'm in Australia.

[destructor]

How did ckd show that killa seven is town?

I thought you were against arguing for someone's innocence? Cuz I am, too.

Fair enough. I don't know what you're seeing, though.

If you're going push my lynch eventually, I'd still like you to answer those questions I asked you, but right now I'm more interested in seeing Alabaska and k7 post some more.

[destructor]

BM, this is starting to border on fishing.

Again,

unless a player is in danger of being lynched, there is no need to defend them.

I'm all for it come lylo, but we're not there yet.

This actually sets my refusal to explain why I think camn is town apart from her's to explain why she's saying k7 is town. k7's not at the brink of a lynch, but he's closer than she is.

I asked camn why k7 was town because I actually suspect him whereas you're questioning of me about camn seems to be coming from nowhere.

[destructor]

It's all information. You stepped up to say 'Camn is town', and i was interested to hear you explain yourself. It's kinda how discussion starts.

This would not be a helpful discussion.

The only scenario in which this borders on 'fishing' is if you have rolebased information confirming Camn as town, in which case, by your own admission, you should come forward because you might not be around tomorrow.

Why are you twisting this around so much? I'm comfortable explaining who I suspect because I believe they're likely scum and

won't

be nightkilled. The same can't be said for people I think are town. The fewer reasons scum have to think there is compelling evidence of a player's innocence the harder it is for them to make a good nightkill. I really don't see the point in talking about this anymore.

Your point about fishing is really backwards too. "Fishing" is about luring out info you don't already have. Whether I actually

do

have rolebased info is completely irrelevant.

[destructor]

To that end, you have spent the entirety of this day fishing.

Tell me all about it. Seriously.

[destructor]

I'm not giving you shit until you answer my questions.

[destructor]

camn, along with my other questions, explain why you want me lynched instead of Alabaska?

BM, what do you make of camn's claim of being obvious town? What do you make of k7's 1124.

Alabaska, k7, why aren't you posting?

[destructor]

sum up your questions again?

I would like you to reread my posts today in context, but I'll try to sum them up as well. Also, apologies for that last snippy comment.

So what I wanted was not only answers to questions, but comments on my responses to your case too. I want to know that you're not just being tunnel-visioned and are actually considering my rebuttals.

I

still

don't know what you think ckd did that makes k7 obvtown. If you don't want to reveal what this is, I hope you have a good reason. If it'd confirm him more than anyone else, I'd totally rather see him dead tonight than someone who's going actually post. Seriously, the way he's playing, him being confirmed and alive is only marginally better than him being confirmed and dead anyway. Consider that no one else has indicated even slightly that they've seen the same thing you have, so, assuming you

are

killed tonight, there's nothing to guarantee that k7 won't be lynched tomorrow despite how town you're saying he is.

I want you to read 1145-1146 again. You said, "And no.. meta is for sissies. I don't have a single bit of it. You just aren't a green newb." I'm arguing that saying my misread of ckd's claim is a point against me is a argument based on meta, despite you saying that you don't pay meta any heed. I'd say there's a hint of Burden of Proficiency thrown in there too.

camn, you seem to be concerning yourself with how I read ckd's claim over anything else he did. Do you think it wasn't a town priority for me to see who was linked to lynched scum? You don't think it looks like k7 seemed to go out of his way to agree with or defend ckd? Maybe this ties in with my last question too. Also, what motivation can you see for k7 to have lurked without explanation?

You said, "It isn't inconsistent.. but the priorities are different for town and scum." I'd like you to respond to all of this quote ignoring whatever it is you think confirms k7 as town.

---

BM's play today is making me think again. I don't know

why

he's railed on like he has in his exchange with me and it's looking like fake-scum-hunting now, mainly because I can't see the pro-town merit in his line of questioning. I also realised that while he seemed to be obsessed with getting me to explain why I thought camn was town, he hasn't asked camn why she thinks k7 is town once. Saying I was 'fishing' all day was unfounded too. This along with what I raised earlier today (his comment on a k7 wagon and his Day 4 play) is weighing on my mind.

Something else I've realised is that k7 and BM probably aren't scum together because of this:

so nobody is going to join me onto a CKD wagon?

CKD, what about you?

BM

did u re join this game just to wagon ckd?

Alabaska, on the other hand, works as scum either way and I happen to agree with camn regarding no lynching, just not on

who

to lynch, yet. :p

Unvote
Vote: Alabaska J

If we're not going to No Lynch, we should seriously consider massclaiming.

---

k7, posting to say you're going to post later doesn't really count. Hurry up and answer those questions like you said you would. Otherwise, good luck lurking to victory.

[destructor]

Btw, my vote for Alabaska made him the deadline lynch unless another wagon gets more votes (or pop unvotes, etc.).

[destructor]

K7!!!!--- why do you think you were targeted n3????????

This is such a good question. I've seen him browsing the forum twice between his insightful "I'll get to this later" posts.

camn, I just realised what you're actually saying about my "misread". You think I didn't read ckd's posts at all, or something similar? I read them all (up to wherever I stopped reading), including his claim, I didn't pay much attention to his targets besides farside, only because there were no deaths N3.

I didn't see a need to fill the thread up with anything other than my case on k7. If you'd like to see it, I could seriously do a copy/paste of my notes. I didn't take notes on ckd or any other dead players, thought I did comment on how others interacted with him or vice versa. I read posts of the dead that living player's responded to, but skipped a few, like some of gobo and riceball's exchanges.

BM claims you are rolefishing.
YOu deny it.
Then you propose a massclaim?

I don't get it.
pls explain.

BM said I was fishing, not rolefishing. I accused him of the same thing because it looked to me like he was trying to draw rolebased info (such as investigations) out of me. At lylo, massclaim is usually a good idea, moreso when a setup is (semi-)open, which is why I suggested it. I think it's justified whereas I still don't know what BM was getting at.

---

Alabaska's vote for pop is BS. He just called pop town, so I think he's just confirmed himself as scum. Given his FOS to me, he should have voted in kind. *waits for camn to call this distancing*

But on that, camn, you still haven't commented on my early interaction with Alabaska or the explanations I gave for them.

[destructor]

No, I wouldn't prefer it.

So, why lynch pop instead of No Lynching? Is he that obviously scum?

[destructor]

And thoughts on BM and k7?

[destructor]

Where's BM?

pop, what's your case on me?

Ala, thoughts on BM and k7?

camn,

But on that, camn, you still haven't commented on my early interaction with Alabaska or the explanations I gave for them.

[destructor]

That statement doesn't stand on its own legs. I don't know if you're just not taking this seriously, or if you actually think what you're doing right now, in what could be the end of the game, is actually good scum-hunting.

Have you noticed that the deadline is two days away?

[destructor]

There is no point trying to reason with someone who decides to disregard any information that conflicts with their beliefs. This info just bounces right off without registering. I think it's a recognised phenomenon in cognitive science. It gets called tunnel vision here at ms. I've had it before, but I realised how terrible a way to play it is. It seems camn hasn't had this realisation yet.

I would be comfortable with a No Lynch.

[destructor]

You have a clever tongue, though..

Its sad when everything is taken to be a trap as opposed to what common sense would indicate. =/

[destructor]

So what, now Alabaska is town?

I think scum are in k7, BM and Alabaska. I am voting in kind. What's the issue?

[destructor]

That's pretty much why I'm leaving my vote exactly where it is. Any vote cast now will have greater consequences. That said, there are still a few days to go. It'd be nice if people would pick the activity up a bit. BM's posting around the site, so I don't know what reason he'll give for missing this game with its impending deadline. I'd also like to know if pop has anything on me or if he's hopping on the back of your case. And k7... what can I say about k7?

Actually,

killa seven

,

i think i know what camn is getting at..
Probably will vote with her.

What was this about? What do you think camn was getting at? Why haven't you voted?

[destructor]

So... is everyone following k7's example and deciding that lurking will lead them to a win?

[destructor]

camn, you're creating a trap. You're not only discouraging ME from changing my vote freely, but every other player in this game.

But in other news, you're on /ignore until you pull your head out of your arse. It's clear that you've made up your mind about me and aren't even beginning to consider that you could be wrong, so I'm not going to waste my time with you any more. And I say this is clear because you've pinned your entire case on one post I made that you think means I didn't read ckd's posts. You hypothesised that this was a scum-tell. Rather than testing this hypothesis, you've only been looking to prove it, that is, you've gone all tunnel-visioned. Saying things like "I would destroy you, but you haven't been in this game long enough to give me the ammunition," make this obvious enough.

I think K7 is town.
I think you and Ala are scum.

We've got a day before deadline, so answer these swiftly.

What has k7 done that makes him town? You've never indicated you thought this until now.

Why do you think I'm scum? You've explained your reasoning for Ala but haven't provided a single one for me.

[destructor]

I think K7 is town.
I think you and Ala are scum.

We've got a day before deadline, so answer these swiftly.

What has k7 done that makes him town? You've never indicated you thought this until now.

Why do you think I'm scum? You've explained your reasoning for Ala but haven't provided a single one for me.

1. Err, why arent you supporting Ala's lynch?
2. Why camn and me cant be scum?
3. Why did your predecessor attack hardly only townies?
4. Have you seen anything scummy besides K7's lurking?
5. [edited out for the sake of cosmetics]

1. I'm voting for Alabaska.
2. Eh?
3. I'd have to go and read his posts to see if he never attacked scum. Townie's attack townies all the time. Given the number of mislynches this town has seen, I don't see why you'd say this was a scum-tell.
4. The lurking wasn't mentioned until the very end of my case. The bulk of my case of

interaction

.
5. What are you saying about the first quote? Gobo said he thought BM could have done what he did as town. Why's that scummy? Second quote, agreeing with scum doesn't make a player guilty. If you'd raised that along with something else, it might be supporting evidence, but alone it doesn't say much.

So, really, I see no smoking barrel. What even made you

think

I was scum? My impression from your second post (I think) of the day was that Gobo wasn't exactly up on your list of suspects.

[destructor]

No harm in a No Lynch, but based on interaction, I can't see how Alabaska could be anything but scum right now.

[destructor]

I really don't know. His "fishing" comment was out of place. I don't know if it was a deflection or something more like a knee-jerk reaction. The knee-jerk reaction wouldn't make a heap of sense so, again, I don't know why he said it.

His comment about camn is definitely in conflict with what he said in the post I quoted, so far as I can tell, especially since he seemed to scold me for fishing about what camn was "getting at" and even said he would probably vote with her. I couldn't be bothered commenting on it before, but now that you've asked I guess I have.

I think k7's vote on Alabaska is a point in his favour at this point. I haven't ruled bussing out, but I can't really see k7 doing that in this situation. Also, like I said, based on interaction I don't think Ala can be town. I believe his buddy is one of k7 and BM. BM's lurked while k7 has at least posted and now voted for the player I think is most likely scum.

But for the sake of thoroughness...

k7, I wasn't fishing. The post of yours I quoted sounded vague and I wanted you to explain what you were thinking. I still don't see why you said it since camn's posts, for the most part, were frank and clear. I don't think she was hinting at anything more than what she said, like you seemed to think she was. Also, saying you're going to vote with someone (camn) then saying you're watching how they vote doesn't add up. Can you explain these?

[destructor]

Why didnt you write this before?

I couldn't be bothered commenting on it before, but now that you've asked I guess I have.

That I didn't say it earlier is probably more indicative of what I said I thought about k7 now. If I thought his post made him seem

more

scummy, I probably would have said so.

I've already said what I think about today's lynch. Just waiting on BM now.

Preview Edit: zomg BM's getting replaced.

[destructor]

I'm thinking camn tracked ckd to k7.

BMII

Korts gets my vote.

Vote: Korts

- L-2.

Korts, tell us what you're thinking.

[destructor]

I'm thinking camn tracked ckd to k7.

BMII

Korts gets my vote.

Vote: Korts

- L-2.

Korts, tell us what you're thinking.

Explain please.

Which part did you want me to explain?

camn was a tracker. She said she believed ckd targeted everyone he claimed to. She said she believed k7 was innocent. I conclude that she tracked ckd to k7. So, k7 is confirmed innocent in my eyes.

I already explained why I suspect BM. Yesterday I thought the last two scum were in Alabaska J and {killa seven,

BM

Korts}. I think k7 is innocent now, and Korts is still alive.

I think you're innocent because you started yesterday by voting for Ala. Also, if you were scum with Alabaska, I think the two of you could easily have forced a mislynch on me yesterday.

[destructor]

And look at BM's play in the last two days. He went into major lurk mode and what pro-town goal can you see BM having in his exchange with me? He was outright fishing without cause.

k7, I didn't think camn had soft-claimed. See my response to you in Post 1225 (top of this page).

[destructor]

I think Korts is scum. I don't see a reason not to be voting him.

[destructor]

Id suggest reading specially the part where destructor replaces.

What was scummy about that? Your case was gobo quotes, wasn't it? Are you sure you know why

you

think I'm scum?

[destructor]

I was pointing out that you told Korts to read the part where I replaced in, but you didn't even raise any of

my

play in the case you posted yesterday. Why would you tell Korts to read my (destructor's) contribution to the game, if you didn't reference any of it yourself?

[destructor]

I was pointing out that you told Korts to read the part where I replaced in, but you didn't even raise any of

my

play in the case you posted yesterday. Why would you tell Korts to read my (destructor's) contribution to the game, if you didn't reference any of it yourself?

I dont have to. You are basically doing the same thing you yesterday. Pick an easy case to save your ass.

If by "easy case" you mean k7, my ass wasn't on the line when I made it.

Instead ppushing a null case like K7 you are going now against BMII but you havent explained why.

And look at BM's play in the last two days. He went into major lurk mode and what pro-town goal can you see BM having in his exchange with me? He was outright fishing without cause.

So, he got replaced, so the lurking may be a null-tell (at least for Day 5). But he

was

pretty inactive before ckd got lynched. And I'm dead serious about asking you to look at his exchange with me. Can

anyone

explain why he'd have wanted me explain why camn was town as badly as he did? And why would he try to use my refusal to explain that as a point against me? His play made no sense.

[destructor]

Korts and destructer, what do you think of the possibility that POP is scum?

I've touched on this already in my posts. But I promise I'll answer this question specifically, if you want me to, after Korts finishes his read.

[destructor]

Whoops.

I've finished reading up now...

Korts thinks pop is scum?

I'm going with Occam's Razor on this. I don't see why pop would have bussed ckd and Alabaska, so I figure pop is town. Also, I think he could have gotten behind my case on either k7 or Korts/BM without too much difficulty. A quick look at my notes, I see that his post 768, where he tries to get BM1 to clarify why he made the gambit he did, as pretty pro-town.

[destructor]

Your reasoning against pop bussing two scumbuddies is WIFOM through and through, you do realize.

Not really. Bus ckd, maybe, but why come out Day 5, guns blazing, against Alabaska?

Other than pop, destructor is my next guess; you threw around too much shit yesterday, almost like you'd be content with any lynch.

I voted k7, had a bout with BM, then voted Alabaska.

Also, as camn noted, you commented multiple times that a no lynch would be best, yet never voted that way.

I don't think I ever said a no lynch would be best. I said I'd be okay with one.

[destructor]

Also destructor, why do you think Korts killed camn?

I don't know. If he'd have even skimmed the last two days, I think she would have been an obvious target. I don't want to speculate much further than that.

I have to admit that besides his characterisation of my play yesterday, Korts play does seem town-ish today. When the day started (and yesterday ended) it looked like pop would have been more than prepared to see me lynched. k7 seemed to be leaning that way as well. So Korts going after pop instead of me was unexpected.

pop, what were your reasons for hiding as you did? Also, why did you claim?

[destructor]

If you think Korts is scum then do you think he killed camn to bring suspicion to you? Also do you think he's scum pushing my lynch?

With two docs dead, camn was obviously going to die. I don't think it mattered that she thought I was scum, though that was always a bonus for scum. My guess is Korts-scum killed her because no pro-town players considered her as a possible lynch at all. It may have been an unforeseen consequence that k7 was more or less confirmed innocent as a result.

Actually, if camn had lived, I probably would have been cleared. I'm betting she tracked me last night and wouldn't have tracked me to a nightkill (yes, I'm being intentionally non-specific). And yeah, considering all things, her death isn't a point in my favour.

To the second question, I don't think the way he's expressed suspicion of you is obviously scummy, but I've already explained that I believe he's scum.

Also, why didn't you hide night 2?


It seems ridiculous to me that the two players I think are town have claimed while the player I think is scum hasn't. Are we massclaiming? I'll happily claim if Korts will.

The setup, as claimed, so far:
Scum:
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Goon

(1 unknown scum role)

Town:
6 Townies
2 Doctors
2 Hiders
2 Trackers
1 Compulsive-Vig
(1 unknown pro-town role)

We should expect the setup to be balanced. The town looks slightly over-powered now, but taking the compulsive-vig into consideration, it may not be. The Hiders could also result in a definite town kill, whether they hid behind scum or town, so that is also worth considering.

What do you guys think about the chances that the last scum is a roleblocker? If it's not, the town could have this game in the bag, assuming everyone's claimed truthfully so far.

[destructor]

To the second question, I don't think the way he's expressed suspicion of you is obviously scummy, but I've already explained that I believe he's scum.

About this, Korts said something about making a proper case. I think he should post this.

[destructor]

Couldn't you double check that with the mod?

I'm a Townie.

[destructor]

That's what I was getting at. Unless I've gotten something wrong, if you and k7 hide behind each other, the last scum can't win unless they were a Mafia Roleblocker.

It could end Happily ever after if we keep no lynching and scum forfeit their kill, which would probably mean a loss for both sides.

[destructor]

Each night you may PM me the name of one player and you will only die that night if that player is killed by a night kill.

If two hiders hide with each other, is it impossible for them to die?

My response: WIFOM.

*scratches head*

Here's where I am at: I'm second guessing myself about Korts. The biggest reason for this is that he didn't just jump on my wagon today. I was an ezpz lynch and pretty much still am. That said, maybe I'm assuming he'd read all of yesterday and noticed the momentum that was building. Through the whole day, I only ever had one vote from camn and BMII HOS'd me. It is possible that Korts didn't realise what pop and k7 thought about me already.

So, I'm feeling like I need to reread. Ignoring BM's play yesterday, Korts' play today feels pro-town, which is making me rethink my conclusion about pop. The argument that pop is town because he played in a way that made a win as scum harder seems to apply more so to Korts' play today in a big way.

[destructor]

If anyone's being opportunistic, it's you. How can you even begin to suggest I'm exploiting this situation considering the fact that there are already three players who are willing to vote for me? You started this day encouraging Korts to finish his read and get me lynched. Why did you wait this long to vote for me if you were so sure then?

[destructor]

Korts hasn't been pushing my lynch but he named me his next suspect after you. Even if he hadn't mentioned me at all, are you really going to suggest that my lynch wasn't the most likely when the day started?

Look at my play today, if I'd have flipped immediately after Korts said he suspected you I'd understand you calling me opportunistic. But I went out of my way, before you even replied, to say that I thought you weren't likely to be scum. Why would I do that if I was planning to flip later? And I

haven't

even flipped, which what makes your reaction ridiculous. All I've said is that I'm reconsidering my read of you, which is a shitload different from saying I think you're scum. You're reaction feel like a whole load of overstated OMGUS given that you're calling me reconsidering things opportunistic, which is FAR from the case. What I posted was completely reasonable.

I voted Korts because I thought BM was scum. Korts can't answer for BM's actions, and that's all I had on him. If BM was around I would have been pushing him to answer for himself. The best we can get from Korts now is an impression of genuine scum-hunting. Seriously, what else is there to do with him?

[destructor]

And I

have

been posting my case on BM but

no one

has responded to it. I've asked you and k7 to look at BM's play in the last two days and neither have apparently done so. I don't see why I should have to do more than that.

You

are all supposed to be scum-hunting too.

[destructor]

Minimizing my case against you to an OMGUS is just ridiculous.

I didn't. I was arguing that your reaction was. Your reasoning was "opportunism". My response is that there's nothing opportunistic about reconsidering your read. Sound fair? Regarding the rest of your case, see below.

Ive thought you're scum since yesterday and Ive explained why.

And I replied to these every time. Since you rarely responded, I (and the other players) don't know what you thought about my replies.

Kay destructor then who's scum?

Obviously I think it's one of Korts or you.

Have you read my arguments against BM/Korts? Why haven't you ever commented? What do you think? Why was BM asking me to explain why I thought camn was town? Why would he suggest my refusal to explain it was scummy? Why didn't he push ckd's lynch?

[destructor]

I don't know that you are. Korts' play today feels town.

That's the whole reason I'm reconsidering.

Does that not make sense? If I had a reason to say you were scum that didn't have anything to do with Korts' play, I would have stated it already. This is why I want to reread.

Korts can't tell us why

you

never commented on my case on BM. So, why didn't you?

[destructor]

k7's plan sounds pretty good, though. I'm trying to find plotholes in it, but the only one that springs to mind is if the scum have a second RB, which I think would be overpowered for them. A scum doctor wouldn't be unreasonable, but two blocks is just too much.

Considering the town had TWO Trackers and TWO Doctors, I don't think two Roleblockers are out of the question at all.

k7's plan is only good if pop is town. Why are you suddenly convinced?

[destructor]

Mafia Roleblocker

You are a Roleblocker in the _____ Mafia. ________ are also members of your mafia.


Each night a member of your mafia can PM me the name of a player. That member of your mafia will attempt to kill the targeted player. Your mafia only gets one kill per night. If I do not receive a PM before the deadline for that night, no kill will be performed. If I recieve more than one PM for the night kill from your mafia, only the first one sent will count. Other roles might interfere with your killing ability; you will not be notified if this happens.

As an additional ability, each night you may PM me the name of a player. That player’s night action will not occur. If I do not receive a PM before the deadline for that period of night, you will not block any player. If you are targeted by another roleblocker your attempted block will not take effect, and you will not be informed.

You may perform both a night kill and a roleblock in the same period of night.

You can talk with the other living members of your mafia at night.

You win if only members of your mafia are alive at the end of the game.

Yes they can.

I haven't had a chace to reread yet (I just got up).

pop

Tajo, K7's told us what he thinks about my case on BM/Korts. Korts has commented himself. Now what do you think? Is it a reasonable case?

[destructor]

D'oh, forgot. It just came naturally to assume, I mean, k7 assumed the same thing.

But k7 didn't start the day saying his number one suspect was populartajo.

[destructor]

I've got some stuff to do today, but I'll do it tonight.

I've played more than I've modded, so my experience only goes so far. My feeling is that scum are somewhat underpowered without another powerrole, but then the Trackers aren't going to catch scum immediately and scum had a wealth of possible fake-claims to work with. Given the two Docs, I feel a Mafia Doc is less likely, as three Doc claims would definitely have lead to their lynch (assuming they claimed Doc, which is what I think most scum would have done in that situation). There's also the confusion factor the town would have been in if we had more roleclaims/massclaim to take into consideration.

So, basically, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was another one. I don't see that as

overpowering

scum, at least.

I

will

do that reread, but Korts' slip on you is looking damning to me. The whole point is that he was supposed to suspect you above all others, yet seems to forget this entirely when agreeing with k7.

[destructor]

About the so-called slip, why is it damning that I believed pop's claim? The night choices make sense enough to me not to suspect him anymore.

His claim, which scum could fake, makes you disregard how you found his

play

scummy?

Tajo, k7, are you buying this?


Rereading now.

[destructor]

From Day 1:

Camn and Xtom seem to love lurker bandwagons. Noting this. I am simply against bandwagoning lurkers.

camn and Xtox were voting springlullaby, Mafia Goon. I'd think it was a deflection if Tajo wasn't voting Anatole, Mafia Godfather.

By page 10, that's all I've noted. MME hasn't made any contributions. Apparently he was away and ill or something.

Page 11: Tajo give an update on his thoughts.
As a mini-defence for myself, see Anatole's Post 313 where he attacks Elvis and Gobo. So far, Anatole hadn't attacked anyone who's flipped scum. Gobo's response is worth looking at too. Does it look like distancing? Ana followed this up with a vote for Gobo by 522.

Post 342, MME votes Anatole. Eh.
But! Anatole makes a big post (Post 535) replying to elvis, yet makes no comment on MME's vote. This is in line with him not attacking scum-buddies. By 370, MME bandwagons musher, making no mention of his prior suspicion of Anatole.

404, Tajo unvotes Anatole. Justified, imo, since Ana'd started posting by that stage.

Page 19: LOL.

642, Tajo votes Rice, saying he'll explain later...

Weren't you going to post your reasons for voting Riceballtail today?

Im busy. You're voting for him, right? Why dont you start?

This was a bit weird.
Tajo unvotes in page 21 with reasons, but never really explained why he voted Rice in the first place.

528 makes me think that Tajo is good at distancing or isn't scum at all. Tajo, are you good at distancing? Be honest!

Ok, I'm at the end of Day 1 and pretty much where my first read ended (when I did it backwards). Happy to keep my vote on Korts.

[destructor]

It wasn't clear, I want to go over the rest (or more) of the game, but it's almost 1am and I need sleep.

[destructor]

I really think destructor is scum and he'll have to convince me hard in that reread to change my mind.

I'm getting the impression that you're not considering Korts as scum much at all.

That said, I feel certain enough about Korts now that I don't see the point in spending time rereading when I could be posting.

Consider these:
1. Korts started Day 1 saying he thought Tajo was scum without mentioning ANY secondary suspects. He says he's going to bring up specifics, implying there were specific things about

Tajo's play

he found scummy.
2. k7 suggests a plan that could win the game for the town on the condition that Tajo is town and that the last scum is not a roleblocker.
3. Korts agrees with k7's plan even though, according to him, he thinks Tajo as scum makes the most sense of anyone else in the game. He makes no mention of his apparent suspicion.

This does not make sense as town play.

4. When I call Korts on this, his defence is, first, that he 'assumed' (what does that even mean?), and second, that Tajo's claim, which has

nothing

do with his play (what Korts was apparently suspicious of Tajo for), made him believe Tajo is likely town. Again,

this makes no sense as town play.

5. Regarding a second Roleblocker, he claims, without reference to anything, that a second roleblocker would overpower scum. Why would he, as town, write this possibility off like that? Whether he actually

is

a scum roleblocker is irrelevant.


Tajo, I don't think you suspected Gobo much at all before I replaced in, in fact I think you thought he was town. I've seen what you've posted as reasons for suspecting me and I

really

think they're not enough to bump me above MME/BMII/Korts given how they played. You have nothing to lose by going back and reading my responses and

seriously

considering Korts as scum.

Korts' comments on k7's plan are compelling reasons to doubt that he ever suspected populartajo at all!

[destructor]

On another note, I'm fairly convinced pop is scum. I'll do a proper analysis of his connections soon, I just don't have time right now.

Never happened.

k7's plan sounds pretty good, though. I'm trying to find plotholes in it, but the only one that springs to mind is if the scum have a second RB...

Or that your number 1 suspect could be scum?

D'oh, forgot. It just came naturally to assume, I mean, k7 assumed the same thing.

But k7 didn't start the day saying his number one suspect was populartajo.

About the so-called slip, why is it damning that I believed pop's claim? The night choices make sense enough to me not to suspect him anymore.

His claim, which scum could fake, makes you disregard how you found his

play

scummy?

Still no answer.

2-3. There was pop's claim in between. I didn't explicitly state that that made things different, but it did. The night choices made sense, and my suspicion of him was lessened.

THERE IS NO REASON TAJO COULDN'T HAVE FAKE NIGHT TARGETS! YOU AREN'T MAKING SENSE.

4. I assumed the same thing k7 did when proposing the plan; that pop was basically confirmed. Also, are you implying that I should disregard a claim's validity based simply on shoddy play?

WTF?! YES!

Also, you are appealing to pop's emotions pretty hard. Does it make any difference how much he suspected your predecessor in the past? Why should goborage's play redeem yours?

My play doesn't need to be redeemed. My point is that Tajo thought Gobo was town. His suspicion of me seemed to come from nowhere. Actually, it was probably from camn.

On my predecessors' play, MME lurked hardcore because he had some RL problems, at least that's what I gathered from the readthrough. BMII also lurked, probably due to similar problems; what of his few actions did you find so damning?

Are you asking this seriously? How many times have I explained this already?

---

[1]Des tried desperatly to derail the ala suspicion by putting a huge case together on me, [2]and repeatily asking ala what he thought of me and bm.

1. Overstatement
2. Twice.

i will wait to hammer and most likely will before the deadline unless des can point something out overly scummy that will make me vote korts, but he really hasnt done so yet.

Do you often withdraw all suspicion you had of a player because of a claim they could have faked as scum anyway? How does Tajo's claim do

anything

make his play look different? How can you just accept this BS reason Korts has given for flipping on his read of Tajo?

[destructor]

And seriously, Korts, so you didn't

start

the day saying Tajo was your prime suspect,

but you said it in Post 1270

and that's why your comment on k7's plan is a slip. It doesn't matter when you said it, the point is it was before you implied you thought he was town. Your defence sound like a terrible backtrack. Believing Tajo's claim is a weak reason to have changed your mind.

[destructor]

I believe the claim. Yes, it could be faked, but a fakeclaim would likely not make complete sense in regard to the night choices.

Maybe I should have fakeclaimed. I'm sure I could have figured something believable out, in which case, by your current reasoning, I guess you'd have to self-vote or something, since none of us could be scum given our believable claims, right?

Again, scummy play=/=confirmed scum.

Believable claim=/=confirmed town, ESPECIALLY in the face of a scummy read.

He was in major lurk mode and got replaced most likely because he wasn't all there. That would also explain the fishing. If you were skimming, and you saw someone declare that another player was town, without adding anything else, would you take them at face value?

How the FUCK does lurking explain fishing? And no, I definitely wouldn't take it at face value, but I wouldn't go fishing on it!

Where's k7 and Tajo?

So, if I'm going to be lynched the town will only win if a) Tajo is town AND b) Korts isn't a roleblocker. On the other hand, Tajo is scum and we've lost anyway.

I maintain that my play makes complete sense as town while BMII's and Korts' has holes.
1. I started Day 5 suspecting k7 because of interaction. I HAD NO REASON TO THINK HE WAS TOWN BECAUSE I WASN'T A TRACKER WHO TRACKED SCUM TO HIM.
2. After BM's irrational fishing and attacks on me, I reconsidered. I decided that Alabaska made sense as scum with either BM OR k7 while the two couldn't be scum together and voted accordingly.
3. Day 6 starts and I realise that camn probably tracked ckd to k7. With 3 to lynch, I vote for who I suspected next: Korts.
4. Korts' play seems town, so I decide to look at pop again.
5. After some rereading and analysis of Korts' own play, I decide that my read was fine as it was and continue to push Korts' lynch.

BMII/Korts' play:
1. BM asks me to explain why I think camn is town. When I refuse, for obvious reasons, he decides that this is a point against me. He was fishing.

NO ONE HAS SO FAR BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE A PRO-TOWN EXPLANATION FOR BM'S ACTIONS HERE!

2. Korts' claims that Tajo is his number one suspect based on

'links' to scum

.
3. k7 suggests a plan that requires Tajo to be town. Korts agrees with this despite his earlier read of Tajo.
4. He claims that Tajo's claim, which a) could be faked and b) doesn't change how Tajo played or the way he was linked to scum, is what made him believe Tajo is town.

THIS REEKS OF BACKTRACKING.

Someone tell me how BMII's and Korts's play makes more sense as town than mine!

[destructor]

Today he starts with a vote on Korts when its completely obvious im town, then when me and korts are suspicious of pop he goes on the attack of pop, seems desperate.

Remember that when you asked what we thought about Tajo being scum I said I didn't think he was And no,

I didn't attack Tajo at all

, let alone when you expressed some suspicion of him.

Tajo, you yourself suspected k7 by the end of Day 5. You even unvote Alabaska when k7 voted him. It can't be suggested that my suspicion of him then was unfounded.

[destructor]

LOL

Korts.

At least I'm pretty freaking sure it's him.

[destructor]

I think we've got about an hour, maybe a little more, before deadline. Any last minute vote changes need to happen now. I've pretty much said everything I can muster, so it's really in k7 and Tajo's hands.

[destructor]

I didn't "go against you". Self-hammering is stupid, especially when you're town.

You think Korts' play makes sense?

[destructor]

I guess that's it then. If Tajo's not going to move his vote I'm going to get lynched at deadline regardless of how k7 votes. =/

[destructor]

Have you considered that my arguments are good because they're correct?

[destructor]

Why not?

[destructor]

But I'm not.

[destructor]

springlullaby hardly posted and I'm betting there are a number of players she never mentioned.
Why are you posting that like it's a nail in the coffin? It's nothing of the sort.

You even admit you've decided I'm scum. You haven't answered my question about Korts' play, which I take as a sign that you aren't considering it. What the fuck else am I supposed to do? Go go tunnel-vision.

[destructor]

I guess that's it then. If Tajo's not going to move his vote I'm going to get lynched at deadline regardless of how k7 votes. =/

This isnt precisely the reaction of a townie geting lynched with deadline.

What is then? If it wasn't apparent, I was pretty much laying everything out there on the last post.

Without meaning to burst your bubble, your instincts are wrong and if you have any sense about what will make good engame play

you will actually consider that Korts is scum!

FFS, how can you keep ignoring his flip on you? How can you believe he didn't backtrack?
Now I'm repeating myself.

[destructor]

Me.

[destructor]

Oh, right!

See how I asked you guys if you thought the last scum was a roleblocker? I PM'd Adel that question around then. I was trying to break the game for the town. But then I thought the chances of the last scum being a roleblocker weren't slim enough as I explained.

[destructor]

Me.

Lier.

What the hell?

[destructor]

FFS, how can you keep ignoring his flip on you? How can you believe he didn't backtrack?

[destructor]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:12 am GMT +10

[destructor]

11:12am - 10 hours = 1:12am (GMT)
1:12am - 5 hours = Sunday Sep 14 8:12pm (GMT -5)
I think that's right.

[destructor]

10.

Each period of Day will have a deadline I announce, where:
initial date + 2*( number of living players ) = deadline date
There will be

no

extensions. A deadline is a deadline, so talk while you can.

[destructor]

Nothing, but it complements my questions about a roleblocker and that I was trying to find a way for the town to win by breaking the setup.

[destructor]

I don't think I had decided to believe the claim when I asked the question. When I asked if people thought there could be a RB and that the town could have the game in the bag, I thought I made it clear that it was on the condition that everyone had claimed truthfully (ie, you and k7).

I'm not sure what about that quote you're referring to.

[destructor]

I was probing around. I was already thought you were town at the time so felt no great reason to doubt your claim. All this means is that I didn't necessarily disbelieve it, which is different from outright denying it or accepting it.

If I was going to bring the idea of two hiders hiding with each other, I'd want to be sure you claimed truthfully. Adel didn't reply to my question in a pm, I got my answer when everyone else did - in thread, so I was still thinking about possibilities after I asked her about it.

I don't think there's a discrepancy here.

[destructor]

Eh. Good game.

It's never nice to be lynched as town, but at least I had fun on the way.

camn, I think you did really well to catch ckd, but your tunnel-vision on me did nothing to help the town. Otherwise I think you were a pretty good player in this game and asked a lot of the right questions and made a lot of good calls. I noticed a Tracker breadcrumb in Day 1. Maybe if I'd seen that I would have backed off on the k7 thing earlier.

pop, thanks for giving some thought at the end there. It's a disappointing outcome, but I appreciate you putting in an effort to check my claims out.

k7, same to you. Sorry about jumping at you Day 5, but it really looked like you were scum to me and like I said, I had no reason to think you had to be town.

Korts, well done. You

really

got me doubting myself there until I started to think hard about the flip on pop.

BM, damn you for getting replaced!

Adel, thanks for the setup! I was disappointed when I died night 0, but it was probably a good thing. I was in too many games and would have sucked here. I've got no regrets about replacing in and think I gave the game the effort it deserved. The setup was unconventional and I had fun trying to work it out. So yeah, thanks!

[destructor]

With 4 alive, no-lynch was probably the best move. If Korts wasn't a roleblocker, then the hiders could hide behind each other and escape a NK like cross-protecting doctors. Korts did a heck of a job replacing in for the heavily suspected Battle MageII.

I thought about that, but figured a roleblocker would block and kill one of the hiders, probably killing the other in the process. I considered suggesting no lynching and letting scum decide who was going to do what, but felt I was too deep in things for anyone to follow along with it.

Tajo, don't worry about it. If we'd used our time better things might have ended different. I enjoyed the game, though, so it's all good.

[destructor]

Korts, your play was excellent given the conditions. I don't think you should sell yourself short. Tajo's vote on me, which allowed you to make me the deadline lynch, was pretty much a direct result of your play.


I liked the setup. It's not semi-open or even just open. It's more like super-open or something. I like the idea of knowing which roles will be in the game but not how many of each. It helps direct setup speculation, giving it some limits to make it more worthwhile, while keeping the game far from being easily broken.

Why didn't you require players to confirm?
Why'd you call this game "Nice Shot!"?

[destructor]

Korts....you just did.... F***ING AWESOME!

I just completely screwed up in this game, and knew that we needed a fresh face in order to give us a shot. But tbh, i didnt really expect it would make much difference. You did far more than i could have anticipated. Well done!

BM

Were you doing that bad? I was pretty sure that everyone alive was ready to lynch me at the start of the day. =/

[destructor]

lol. *waves at Incog*

Des, I was feeling your pain bud. camn needs to learn to not tunnel vision so much. Because he got a result about me, HE got a little over confident and the town listened to him too much (based on him being right about me).

I remembered that newbie game we played during Day 5 and the valuable lesson it taught me, lol. I think the premise of camn's case could have been good (that I didn't read your posts as scum), but yeah, the tunnel-vision took over and anything I said was only going to incriminate me. I figured the best thing for me to do was to stop fuelling the fire.

Also, is camn a he?

Preview edit:
LOL. I had this desperate hope that camn really was pulling a gambit, hoping to keep someone she thought was town alive in endgame, and hopefully convincing scum to keep her alive to push the case. Was that it? It would have been awesome if it was. It was definitely painful though. =D

[destructor]

Nice. It could have worked if you weren't so obviously town. People who are obviously town get killed at night. It happens all the time. =/

Next time.